The Enemies of Quality Communication, with Bunny Tharpe

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:16.600 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth, this 2 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:21.559 is BTB growth. Coming to you from just outside Austin, Texas, I'm 3 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:26.559 your host, Benjie Block, and joining me from Nashville, Tennessee director of 4 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:30.480 growth here at sweet fish, Dan Sanchez, and from Louisville, Kentucky, 5 00:00:30.519 --> 00:00:35.640 are creative content lead Emily Brady. So here in about ten minutes you're going 6 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:41.000 to actually hear a full conversation with Bunny Tharpe and interview that I did. 7 00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:45.759 She's the vice president of marketing at Cork. But before today's feature conversation, 8 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:48.600 we're here for a little bit of a show and tell. We're going to 9 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:52.560 take just the next few minutes to highlight something that we saw from in and 10 00:00:52.600 --> 00:00:57.200 around marketing this week and today. I'm going to hand it over to emily. 11 00:00:57.399 --> 00:00:59.880 Emily, what are you paying attention to? Yeah, I read a 12 00:00:59.880 --> 00:01:04.000 post on Linkedin this week that says a business gets marketing if it allows experiments 13 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:10.120 and that we should allow experiments and embrace failure. And this is an ongoing 14 00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:12.599 conversation. It's something that we talked about internally a lot too, so I 15 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:18.840 thought it'd be interesting to bring up and see what y'all's opinions are our experimentation 16 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:23.000 and how that's worked for us and that kind of thing. Go give me 17 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:26.920 your thoughts first. What you read that? You're like, Yay, experimentation. 18 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:30.799 People look at sweet fish and they go they experiment. I'm sure that's 19 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:33.599 like one of the first words that came to my mind when I was doing 20 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:37.640 research about sweet fish. But talk to me a little about your thoughts. 21 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:41.719 Yeah, well, I think I'm pretty close to this. Have my hands 22 00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:46.840 in this a lot. On Social and we've done this with our evangelist program. 23 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:49.200 On linkedin, was sort of just like shoot, let's give it a 24 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:53.120 shot. We've seen other people do it and we built a framework for it 25 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:57.439 and tested it out and at that paid off for us. And now it's 26 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:01.079 tick tock and that's kind of a scarier thing, as should be. Be 27 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:06.280 Brands on Tick Tock and I just jumped on that and experimented with my own 28 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:10.159 personal account before I did one for sweet fish. But it doesn't always work 29 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:15.120 for us. We tried to do more posting from our company page earlier this 30 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:19.680 year. We tried to make some videos, make a sort of linkedin campaign 31 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:23.319 and didn't see the results that we wanted to see and thankfully there was really 32 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:28.919 no loss on those ones. It was just like, oh well, that 33 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:31.280 kind of sucks that it didn't work out, but we just get up and 34 00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:37.159 keep moving forward. So I'm a fan of experimentation just because it's a big 35 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:40.919 part of my job on social but I do think that you have to have 36 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:46.479 experimentation within reason. Obviously you have to have some sort of goal for it, 37 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:52.360 but that's been my experience. Buzz word is experimentation in my mind, 38 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:58.039 because I can't go a conversation with talking to a CMO or a director of 39 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:02.080 marketing without them saying like our team loves experimentation. It's like show me the 40 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:08.520 proof, because to me, when I think of experimentation, it's awesome to 41 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:14.400 consider. But how you actually facilitate that as a leader, to make sure 42 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:16.599 that you're doing it consistently and not just on a whim because it's something you're 43 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:23.360 personally interested in? Like we like running experiments when we're interested in a platform, 44 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:25.840 when we're intrigued by something, or maybe it's because our boss told us 45 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:30.719 we had to experiment with it, but things that, like other people are 46 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:34.680 seeing results from that. Maybe our outside our typical scope, but we're going, 47 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:37.879 oh, like that could be interesting, we should run an experiment, 48 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:40.520 even though it's not necessarily what we typically do. That's more what I think 49 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:45.120 of when I think of experimentation, because I love I'm curious. I'm naturally 50 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:50.360 like poke and holes at things and asking questions about stuff. But I've realized 51 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:54.919 there's a difference between curiosity and experimentation and I do think a large part of 52 00:03:54.960 --> 00:04:02.120 experimentation is trying things that maybe naturally we straight up wouldn't or doing things that 53 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:09.039 are very difficult to do for a short period of time and then testing results. 54 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:13.520 So I like the word. I wonder how it actually flushes out within 55 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:16.240 organizations and and one other thing I'll say on this and then Dan, I'll 56 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:20.800 get your thoughts. But because of the rise and the companies we work with 57 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:27.319 right tech SASS like, experimentation is touted. It's always in the conversation and 58 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.639 it's it's something that they are decent, we good at and have like that's 59 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:34.439 what new companies do, is they experiment. So I'm glad that it's in 60 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:39.600 the dialog. It's just a matter of like, how are we actually doing 61 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:43.959 it and not just saying it. I don't think very many marketers disagree that 62 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:46.000 experimentation is a good thing, that we should be doing it. I think 63 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:48.560 you're right, vend you. The question is, how do we do it, 64 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:51.639 like, what's the strategy for it? And a lot of times to 65 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:59.279 giving teams the freedom to experiments, but to experiment within some sort of framework. 66 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:01.759 So I think, yeah, the bigger point here is how do we 67 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:05.279 do experimentation? Well, yeah, I think I'd like to play a little 68 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:09.079 bit of the devil's advocate and kind of show, like the opposite side of 69 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:13.639 what happens when you have a culture of experimentation. Who Culture but another buzz 70 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:15.560 word on top of buzz word? Right, we're all about the buzz. 71 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:18.839 First, I will say that I'm a fan of experimentation in general. Fact, 72 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:21.920 one of my favorite quotes comes from Peter Drucker when he says marketing and 73 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:28.360 innovation make money. Everything else is cost and of course there's not just innovation 74 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:30.839 and marketing. There's innovation in marketing, which is one of the most fun 75 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:34.600 things that ever play with, and I find that they're especially when you're working 76 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:40.519 with the team of creatives. There are plenty of ideas to go around, 77 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:45.360 mainly because a lot of people are surfing blogs and social media, especially Linkedin. 78 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:47.720 There's lots of ideas floating around, and so there are a lot of 79 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:55.079 ideas. The challenge can be how to actually test them properly and actually evaluate 80 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:57.959 some ideas. And the problem is you're, if you're a marketing leader, 81 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:00.720 you're looking at a lot of these ideas. So of them on your own, 82 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:02.399 a lot of them come from your team. You're like, some of 83 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:08.000 these ideas it's so good. In fact they're downright bad, but I don't 84 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:11.639 know if I want to hurt that person's feeling. So what do we do 85 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:13.839 about that? Some of them are good, some of them are bad, 86 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:15.759 some of them are you think are batter, actually are good, and some 87 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:18.240 of them you think are good and actually are bad. So how do you 88 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:23.800 sort through them? All right, I know there's been one thing I've done 89 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:27.879 that I think is somewhat successful in doing this, though there's so much room 90 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:30.000 for improvement here and I think a lot of other leaders have created great grids 91 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:34.560 for this. One thing I have done is that I generally find trying to 92 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:39.600 take the idea and get it to its smallest possible form, like a minimum 93 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:46.040 viable ideam MVP minimum viable product of an idea, but I task the person 94 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:47.600 who has the idea to execute almost all of it. If they need a 95 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:50.680 little bit of resources, that's fine, and I don't mean depends on your 96 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:55.000 budget of sore as what a little bit is to go and execute it, 97 00:06:55.000 --> 00:07:00.160 but they pretty much have to get it done mostly by themselves with minimal resources. 98 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:02.000 If they can validate it, then that's great and I usually do it 99 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:06.120 first by having them write a proposal for it to even then go and spend 100 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:09.920 some of their a week or two working on it. Because if they don't 101 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:14.040 have enough effort and passion behind the idea to write me a one to two 102 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:17.560 page proposal of like just covering the five w's, and how then are they 103 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:21.079 really get to execute on it? They can't even lay it out in print, 104 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:25.000 then they're probably not as interested in it as I would hope. It's 105 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:29.439 kind of a barrier. I use it to kill but ideas where people don't 106 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:32.160 really believe in it, because very few people come back with the one to 107 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:34.959 two page but if they do, I'm like Ah, not only is it 108 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:38.879 more clear of what you want to do with it and why and how you're 109 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:41.079 going to do it and what you need to get it done. But now 110 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:45.040 you have a roadmap for yourself to go and actually execute it and it's clear 111 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:47.360 to everybody else what this is and why. I think that all the time 112 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:51.399 with authors that I interview around content, because I'm going you took the time 113 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:56.399 to write a freaking book, so like, of course I want to talk 114 00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:59.759 to you because you've thought through your ideas. Even the books that I don't 115 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:01.800 agree with, I'm like, at least you fleshed out your ideas over the 116 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:07.800 course of chapters and like you've put in the time. That is part of 117 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:13.480 unfortunately, with how fast marketing can move these days, we don't take the 118 00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:18.279 time to think through the strategy. So it's like it's two sides to it, 119 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:22.399 because you could experiment, if it's a nonpaid marketing channel, experiment the 120 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:26.199 heck out of that in it come back two weeks a month. Like Emily 121 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:28.319 your you brought up a number of the experiments we've run that didn't cost us 122 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:33.720 anything except for time, which you don't want it to eat your entire schedule, 123 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:35.480 but if it you can put in a block of time. Like you're 124 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:41.960 really not actually hurting the business significantly by putting in some effort. They're running 125 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.919 in experiment and learning. Once you start getting into it, eating either too 126 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:50.000 much of your time, because it is then technically eating revenue, like in 127 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:54.279 eating money, then you got to reevaluate, but also, like what other 128 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:58.600 paid sources or are you trying and experimenting with? And that's where I think 129 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:03.919 we run into a like to different methodology, different conversations. To me, 130 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:09.120 experimentation is like, show me the method that you have to run experiments, 131 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:13.440 like what's the avenue? Who's who's thinking about that consistently for you? Don't 132 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:16.840 just tell me that when you think of something, you run an experiment, 133 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:22.879 but like what's the recurring meetings that you hold to make sure that there's experiments 134 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:26.679 being run? And once you have that sort of it can create its own 135 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:31.320 momentum over time because you know, okay, and this meeting it's going to 136 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:33.600 come up, we're going to that's going to trigger the next thing. Someone's 137 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:37.320 going to leave that meeting with the task to do something and actually go run 138 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:41.720 and experiment come back with Dan. I love, even on the Front End, 139 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:43.440 having why you would do it on the back end or right up on 140 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:46.000 like what worked, what didn't work, should we continue, should we not 141 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:50.919 continue? And once you have that going, you can say, not only 142 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:54.639 is it something we value, like as the word, but here's how we 143 00:09:54.720 --> 00:10:00.000 value it and how it's happening consistently for us. One thought I have for 144 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:03.960 those who don't think people will like their ideas that I've tried a couple of 145 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:07.080 times now and it's worked pretty well, is if you have an idea and 146 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:11.080 you have a culture that isn't very friendly to ideas or they need to see 147 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:16.720 like a fricking textbook of proof that it's going to work before you even test 148 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:20.120 it happens. I've been asked like how do we know that's going to work, 149 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.120 and it's like a social campaign that takes like six months to prove. 150 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.879 Sometimes I just take it as a side project or I build it on the 151 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:30.679 side, like literally in my free time, and then present sent it and 152 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:35.679 then it becomes the thing. Like once I rebuilt and I wanted to change 153 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:37.600 like this system that ran a bunch of word a, not word press. 154 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:39.799 I was going to try to this is back in the days when the word 155 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:43.679 press wasn't as popular as a content management system. I put one of the 156 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:48.720 major sites of this company on Word Press and I've literally rebuilt the whole site 157 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:50.000 and I was like they're like, oh, what would that look like to 158 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.639 have it done? I'm like, well, actually, I already have it 159 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:54.639 done. Did it, pulled it up on a weird domain name that I 160 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:58.679 had here it is look, it works. They're like clicking around. They're 161 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:01.320 like, oh my gosh, how much will this cost to do for the 162 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:03.039 whole thing? I'm like, well, it'll probably take me like eight months 163 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:05.559 to all the other websites, but this is what it would look like and 164 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:09.600 this is how much money it'll save. It took me, I slid two 165 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:13.320 weekends to get that done, but it changed my the course of my career 166 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:16.799 because I was able to take this major company and read you all their websites, 167 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:18.519 which, as a twenty two year old at the time, I had 168 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:24.519 really no business doing. But sometimes you have to go and do it elsewhere 169 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:26.159 to prove that it works, and that will happen with social media, can 170 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:30.639 happen with email. There's probably some places where you can't do this well, 171 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.720 like ad spend. You can't just take your personal money and start throwing into 172 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:37.279 facebook ads to prove that it works as well. You can. Chris Walker 173 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:39.279 did, but it's a little harder. But with ads and stuff like that, 174 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:45.320 you could also show some proof by others stats and you could do you 175 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.639 could do some things there where you don't have to first build it. You 176 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.440 could just bear it out in some other ways if you can collect the data, 177 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:56.240 which you can. So I think that's helpful in that and but you're 178 00:11:56.320 --> 00:12:01.039 hitting on something to where it's like us personally being people of experimentation. As 179 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:05.440 marketers, like that's one of the top traits you want in somebody if they're 180 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:11.080 willing to experiment and like try new things. That ultimately, with how fast 181 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:15.639 things move, you do want someone that naturally has that bend. Emily, 182 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:18.679 what are you thinking over there? Well, I just what Dan just said 183 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:22.440 is really at idea to try something on the side in your off time, 184 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:24.879 and it makes me think too about like even podcasting. Like we have a 185 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:31.360 lot of people who have their own personal podcasts and I think that that transitions 186 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:33.039 really well into like, oh well, I tried this on my podcast, 187 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:37.399 maybe it'll work really well for the company PODCAST. So it's cool how that 188 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:39.919 all ties in and I know for me personally, like I've done it with 189 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:43.639 social to like I started tick tock in my offtime and now I do it 190 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:48.320 for sweetfish, and so that's a really good ad Dan. I appreciate that. 191 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:52.720 Okay, here's the deal. I think when it comes to experimentation, 192 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:58.679 we all can continue to look at what's I love the idea of doing audits 193 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:01.360 of our time. So just think of like, is there any space in 194 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.279 your calendar to actually be executing on this? And then, if you lead 195 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:09.679 a team, like what are some ways that you have baked into your team 196 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:13.399 that you want to have a culture of experimentation? I remember I did a 197 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:18.120 conversation with Lisa Cocks. She's the director of marketing at teak and twine, 198 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.919 and she was even experimenting with this, like I'm going to give each of 199 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:26.600 my team members a certain amount of money, not so much that it's like 200 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:30.879 gonna, you know, burn the budget, but enough that they can actually 201 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:33.879 run an event or they could run an ad or they could they'd had budget, 202 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:37.000 to run whatever kind of thing they want to experiment with and then come 203 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.159 back with what they learned. And that's one of the ways that they were 204 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:46.120 using in creating this culture of learning and experimentation. There's a million ways you 205 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:48.960 can do it. To me it's more of are you talking about the experiments 206 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:54.759 you're running? And once you have that like in place, make sure it's 207 00:13:54.759 --> 00:14:01.200 a flywheel of sorts so that you start and then reevaluate, start and reevaluate 208 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:05.320 and continue to hone it. So fun conversation, Emily. Thanks for bringing 209 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:11.799 that and we're going to jump now to a conversation that I had with Bunny 210 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:16.720 Tharp, vice president of marketing at Cork, talking all about the art and 211 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:22.639 the power of communication. Enjoy. Welcome to be to be growth. I'm 212 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:26.960 your host, Benjie Block, and today I am joined by Bunny Tharp. 213 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:31.840 She is the vice president of marketing at Cork. Bunny, welcome to be 214 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:35.799 tob growth. Thanks, Bingie, it is a pleasure to have you with 215 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:39.960 us. I know you have a background in PR and journalism, so words 216 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:45.960 and language really matter to you and to our audience. Right more broadly, 217 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:48.360 as marketers, we really care about the words that were using, but I 218 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.879 mean when I say they really matter to bunny, I mean they really really 219 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:56.960 matter it, bunny. So what I want to do right from the beginning 220 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:58.720 is I want to actually ask you. Do you have one or two kind 221 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:05.320 of pet peeves around word choice or copywriting that you immediately think of? Oh, 222 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.080 I have lots of pet peeves, but one of the main ones that 223 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:18.120 bothers me these days across everything is when folks don't know the difference between their 224 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:24.720 plurals and their possessives. That really drops me inside. Give me an example. 225 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:28.000 Give me something that you've if you've seen it recently, or just something 226 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:33.600 just as an example of you know, I love s music right, so 227 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:39.080 s in that instance would be possessive, but if I talked about I love 228 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:46.080 the s as the decade, that would be plural. MMM MMM, she's 229 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:50.480 getting gonna give us an English lesson today. It careful about how you throw 230 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:56.000 those apostrophees around. Let me tell you this. I am so guilty of 231 00:15:56.080 --> 00:16:00.759 being poor with the way that I write and think about things like that that 232 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:04.759 I have to double triple check. grammarly is my friend. So get you 233 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:10.679 either somebody that can check it for you, or we have tons of tools. 234 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:12.600 People use the tools. I totally agree. We got to be double 235 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:17.360 checking. So that's a good example. All right. So here's the deal. 236 00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:22.759 The artic communication is vital and it's something that you think a lot about 237 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:25.480 and I thought it would be really fun to do an episode where we dive 238 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:29.919 deep into some of this stuff. It has such a positive impact on every 239 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:36.919 aspect of our life if we continue to improve our own personal art of communication. 240 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:41.399 And then clearly, right today we're talking to an audience of be tob 241 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:47.679 marketers, and so tell me some in this specific instance around be to be 242 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:52.039 marketing. Tell me what is some of the tensions that you manage in writing 243 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:57.519 specifically for this space. Well, be to be does not mean boring to 244 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:07.000 boring, it may sometimes it does. That is definitely a tension in trying 245 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:14.839 to remember that you're talking to fellow humans and that they have emotions and that 246 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:19.519 they have senses of humor and that you can appeal to that and use that 247 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:26.559 to your advantage because, as you said, communication is extremely important. It 248 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:32.359 is how we express ourselves and it is how we connect with other people. 249 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:38.519 Hmm, what do you feel are the enemies of quality communication? Well, 250 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:44.920 I'm a big Fan of what I call the net net. The main point 251 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:51.799 is to make the main point. The main point I am frustrated by, 252 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:59.279 and will also giggle at at times the amount of, you know, superfluous 253 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:03.119 content that's out there. When I go to different websites to try to find 254 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:08.839 out what a partner really does or what a competitor really does and you're just 255 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:17.160 looking for that one or two sentence and capsulation and it's four five sentences and 256 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:22.440 they don't necessarily say anything. So I think that's what people have to be 257 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:27.720 cognizant of. Sometimes less is more. Just because you're using more words or 258 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:34.359 just because you're creating complexity doesn't necessarily mean you're strengthening your message. A lot 259 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:40.559 of times it means exactly the opposite. You are weakening your message. Yes, 260 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:47.200 some of the best communicators that I've studied are able to make complex things 261 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:52.599 simple or they're able to take concepts that would take paragraphs to explain and they 262 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:56.079 figure out, how do I make this into just a couple sentences? Right? 263 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.880 The work for a ten minute speech versus a thirty minute speech. It's 264 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.519 actually a lot harder to do the ten minutes speech and get to the point, 265 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:08.799 because we love all the superfluous stuff, we love all the side stuff. 266 00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:14.240 So that is so true. And because we live in this kind of 267 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:19.960 tweet heavy society, where we need these portable, memorable, easily understandable that 268 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:25.119 we need that type of copy and we just live in that space where attention 269 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:29.160 spans are so short. I wonder, like, what filters are you running 270 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:34.920 your word choice through to ensure its quality? One of the main things for 271 00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:41.359 me is just making sure that it flows, making sure when I read back 272 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:47.200 over something, that I don't stumble over it, and I think it's really 273 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:53.680 important to keep an idea on your sentence length and your paragraph length and keep 274 00:19:53.839 --> 00:20:00.000 things in active voice as much as you can, because passive voice, you 275 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:04.880 know, lends itself to clutter and ambiguity. And you know, the one 276 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.240 thing you when you were talking about twitter, the one thing I thought about. 277 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:10.839 You know, the one thing I like about twitter is the fact that 278 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:15.559 it does make you focus on sound bites right. But then the thing I 279 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:22.720 hate about twitter is how it has contribute to what all call a laziness factor, 280 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:30.160 especially among younger generations, who think they can abbreviate their way through life 281 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:36.200 and they came only on twitter. When you're speaking with a customer or an 282 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:42.079 investor or an important stakeholder for your organization, you do need to maintain some 283 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:48.480 sense of formality, and so you know, to me that is the downside 284 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:53.960 of twitter in how it has contributed to a loss of appropriate decorum in some 285 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:59.680 channels. HMM, it is interesting to balance that right, like can we 286 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:04.319 be straightened to the point, but also understand the tenor of the conversation where 287 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:08.960 in and understand the magnitude of the conversation with it's it's always a bit of 288 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:14.480 a balancing act right. It's like putting ingredients into whatever you're trying to make. 289 00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:18.079 You have to put in the right ingredients in order to get the end 290 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:22.160 result you're desiring. So I appreciate that you point that out. You mentioned 291 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:26.519 the word flow and I want to ask a follow up question there. So 292 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:30.240 your let's say you write some copy and you generally think it's it's good. 293 00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:34.920 Are you reading it back to yourself and noticing where someone might stumble or how? 294 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:41.000 What do you exactly mean by flow? If it's got too many words, 295 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:47.400 if there are too many commas, that's something that's really common these days. 296 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:52.240 The common is common. Sometimes people put too many phrases in there that 297 00:21:52.279 --> 00:21:57.039 they offset by commas, and if you've got too many of those in there, 298 00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:00.799 that's going to create a problem. So you really do have to think 299 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:06.079 to yourself. You know, how many of these words really matter? And 300 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:11.880 I go back to my college days. One of my editorial professors, you 301 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.319 know, who grilled it into us. If you can say it in five 302 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:18.680 words instead of ten, do it. If you can say it in three 303 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:26.640 words instead of five. So again that just goes back to clarity and conciseness. 304 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:30.759 How many of these words do I really need to convey my point? 305 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:36.880 Hey, be to be gross listeners. We want to hear from you. 306 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:38.480 In fact, we will pay you for it. Just head over to be 307 00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:45.079 tob growth podcom and complete a short survey about the show to enter for a 308 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:48.279 chance to win two hundred and fifty dollars. Plus the first fifty participants will 309 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:52.279 receive twenty five dollars as our way of saying thank you so much. One 310 00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:57.759 more time. That's be tob growth podcom, letter B number two, letter 311 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:04.920 be growth podcom. One entry per person must be an active listener of the 312 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:11.839 show to enter and look forward to hearing from you. So again that just 313 00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:18.880 goes back to clarity and conciseness. How many of these words do I really 314 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.920 need to convey my point? And do it with an appropriate tone, which 315 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:26.960 I think when you're cutting out words, sometimes that can affect the way that 316 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:32.839 someone reads it and the tonality. And you hit on this with this idea 317 00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:37.839 of passive language or active language. I want to go deep there for a 318 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:41.559 second because I think knowing how we come off, are we talking in a 319 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:47.440 passive way or in a more active way, is huge in how we actually 320 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:52.559 end up communicating. Right. So if I am a passive communicator, I 321 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:59.720 come off as passive in my communication. What is that mean, bunny, 322 00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:03.839 to you like explain and define what someone who's passive in their communication is? 323 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:08.000 Well, one of the rules I try to follow is not to start a 324 00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:15.880 sentence with there. That's one key hack I supposed to remember, is not 325 00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:22.480 to start a sentence with there, because it's weak right off the bat, 326 00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:27.039 and just remembering that an active voice, the subject of the verb, is 327 00:24:27.079 --> 00:24:33.799 the one that is doing the action and it just makes for stronger, more 328 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:40.559 compelling copy. Okay, so I'll give me an example why you wouldn't start 329 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:44.880 a sentence with their. If you start a sentence with there, you are 330 00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:52.839 not identifying a subject. Your better off saying instead of there. Are Numerous 331 00:24:52.920 --> 00:25:00.880 studies that indicate blah, Blah Blah. Numerous studies indicate Blaah Blah Blah. 332 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.279 It's almost like you're starting a sense with a filler word. Yes, you 333 00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:10.119 were cutting to the chase much faster. HMM. It's a good example and 334 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:11.880 I'm glad because here's something we say of you, to regrowth, to is 335 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:15.599 like. It's so like we want to give mindset shifts right, but we're 336 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:18.960 also in the middle of it and it's so easy to fall prey to say 337 00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:22.119 something like that. So you have to stop and think about it. And 338 00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:26.119 so I wonder this, like if I come to you, bunny, and 339 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:30.920 I say teach me to be more active in my communication approach and in my 340 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:33.880 writing, what would be some of the things I would start doing? I 341 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:37.319 would stop saying they're but are there some things that I would start doing? 342 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:48.400 Maybe automatically again, taking out unnecessary words. Another thing that I see people 343 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:55.960 say is quark will be presenting at such and such conference, will be presenting 344 00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:03.720 at instead of just quark will present act. It really is like filler words. 345 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:08.039 The more mindful you can be of them, you come out almost more 346 00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:14.240 powerful. I know we're talking in this active communication sense, but there is 347 00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:18.960 a sense of power in your words. It's more compelling. Yeah, what's 348 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:23.240 unique in your situation in Cork, because I know you're straddling be tob and 349 00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:27.079 be Toc and so that means, you know, when we're talking about language, 350 00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:30.400 you're also afting having to shift some of that language right depending on the 351 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:34.160 audience that you're talking to. So you recently went through, I know, 352 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:38.759 a rebrand and you're thinking about some of this quite a bit. What have 353 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:44.319 been your main takeaway, some of your main learnings as as cork is going 354 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:48.559 through this time of transition? Well, there have been a lot of learnings. 355 00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.200 Where do you want me to start? Do you want to talk about 356 00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:56.400 the the rebrand in and of itself and how we got there, or dive 357 00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:00.799 into the difference between the audiences? Little bit of both. Yeah, I 358 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:04.400 definitely want to talk about both, but let's start with giving us some context 359 00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:11.680 and what this is all entailed. So quark has been an established company now 360 00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:18.720 for forty years. The primary product is Quark Express. That's what the company 361 00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:22.599 is most well known for. That product was first released in one thousand nine 362 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:27.240 hundred and eighty seven, so thirty some plus years. As you know, 363 00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:37.680 a very powerful page layout and digital publishing platform, but quark also has offerings 364 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:45.640 in content automation and content in intelligence, content intelligence, which lends itself to 365 00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:52.279 all organizations, but specifically enterprises that have to publish, you know, thousands 366 00:27:52.319 --> 00:28:02.119 of complex documents with very specific requirements, especially around, you know, regulatory 367 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:07.359 and legal compliance. We do a lot around structured authoring, modular authoring, 368 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:15.119 componentized authoring. It's known in those various ways. So you know, one 369 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:22.160 customer is the B Toc Independent designer or the agency designer or someone who works 370 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:30.400 in House within a corporation that is creating brochures or catalogs or designing news letters 371 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:36.160 or newspapers. So that's that's one audience that we serve and if you look 372 00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:38.839 on our website you'll notice that, you know, the branding is consistent, 373 00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:42.880 but with those quark express customers we're a little more playful, we're a little 374 00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:48.720 more fun the color choices or more vibrant. We can be a little more 375 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:55.000 playful in our language and how we represent the brand, whereas on the inner 376 00:28:55.039 --> 00:29:03.960 pros side we're dealing with more it operational business analysts, even sea level executives. 377 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:08.119 So we tone the brand down just a bit. We use a softer 378 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:14.920 color Palette. We're a little bit more serious, but not too serious, 379 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:19.640 because we still want to reflect the fact that we are a creative organization and 380 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:25.960 that we're going to help our customers be more creative in whatever it is that 381 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.799 they're producing. So again, you know, it really all goes back to 382 00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:37.319 those fundamentals of knowing who your audience is. Part of this has been I 383 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.039 know for you guys, developing a tagline right and a tagline for a startup 384 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:47.960 is one thing but, like you mentioned, I mean you're what forty years 385 00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:52.759 old, so that process is a bit different. Take me into some of 386 00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:56.240 what that process was like. Well, quark has been around for forty years, 387 00:29:56.359 --> 00:30:03.559 but we do fund ourselves in a busy of a start mentality and of, 388 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:08.880 you know, rebranding the company and relaunching it with a focus on enterprise 389 00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:15.359 solutions. But you know, there was an existing website when I came on 390 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:19.079 board almost a year ago now. That website did not speak to the larger 391 00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:26.799 value proposition. It really only spoke to the B Toc audience with Kark Express. 392 00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.920 So you know, there was a sense of urgency to figure out, 393 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:34.640 okay, who are we now and how do we start communicating that? First 394 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:38.880 and foremost, you know, through a logo, through a tagline, because 395 00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:44.599 that identity then informs everything else that you're going to create, which, of 396 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:49.839 course, the next step was redesigning and rewriting the website. So fortunately, 397 00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:53.680 given where we were at the time, we did not have to start from 398 00:30:53.680 --> 00:31:00.440 scratch. You know, a lot of organizations when they go through a branding 399 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:04.359 or a rebranding, that can take six months, nine months, even a 400 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:10.240 year. It can be a very long drawn out process, and we did 401 00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:14.640 not have that kind of time. What we did we were able to accomplish 402 00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:18.759 within about a three month period, and that's because some good things were already 403 00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:25.880 in place. We had a logo that we simply reinterpreted and revitalized with a 404 00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:30.759 more vibrant color Palette. The symbolism we were able to still work with. 405 00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:36.319 But, you know, going back to the importance of words, one thing 406 00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:40.640 we had to stop and think about is, okay, quark. Well, 407 00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:45.319 how they come up with that? What does that mean? So you actually 408 00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:48.519 look and you realize, and we went back through, you know, some 409 00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:53.160 of the archives to realize that the the original company founder had a love of 410 00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:59.039 physics and science and so is. It turns out a quark is actually a 411 00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:05.640 real thing. It is a scientific term, and so we started looking at 412 00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:10.359 that and looking at that meaning and it translated to what we're trying to do 413 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:15.119 with the company. So if a quark in science is, you know, 414 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:21.680 a basic, fundamental building block of all matter, well, quark the company 415 00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:27.720 then becomes the building block, the fundamental component for all content. That's where 416 00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:30.960 that took us. And the visuals with the circles, those are quarks. 417 00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:35.880 They're moving around, they're bumping into each other there there, you know, 418 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:40.519 giving birth to other things. You know, that speaks to the creative process. 419 00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:45.160 And then there was a somewhat of a tagline in existence in a few 420 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:52.720 places. Your content made brilliant, and I liked the word brilliant because it 421 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:59.880 lent itself to a lot of different things. Brilliant in terms of the designest 422 00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:02.960 static, and you know, design is still a key component of what we 423 00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:08.759 offer. Brilliant smart in terms of, you know, strategic business use, 424 00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:15.519 and then, of brilliant in terms of intelligence, because closing the loop with 425 00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:22.559 content life cycle management these days means being able to understand how your content performs, 426 00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:29.759 having those insights so that you can reuse it or retire it or repurpose 427 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:34.319 it. So it worked on so many levels and we were able to talk 428 00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:42.839 to both audiences because it's brilliant content that works. HMM. I love that. 429 00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:49.519 This is unique from what other startups would experience or even other companies I've 430 00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:52.400 I've had on the podcast recently, where they're doing some sort of branding or 431 00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:59.279 they're thinking about this. And because this was more of a you're readjusting, 432 00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:02.880 right, you're renegotiating, your improving on what has been and so there was 433 00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:07.440 this update that needed to happen, but you're also like rediscovering. What's the 434 00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:10.440 original use? How do we take what we already have? And so I 435 00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:15.159 love what you've landed on with brilliant content that works. And I think even 436 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:19.280 as we were talking about communication, off the top, when you look at 437 00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:22.679 the taglines that we appreciate or you look at this tagline, there's no filler 438 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:25.599 words, there's nothing extra right, because we're trying to get you to be 439 00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:31.239 memorable and portable, and so what this language is actionable and and it's active, 440 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:36.679 and so I really appreciate the road that you guys have been on and 441 00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:40.119 how you landed where you did with that as your as your tagline. Let's 442 00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:45.559 land the plane here and kind of give away how we can leave this conversation 443 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:51.199 better in our word choice. What would you admonish me and our audience to 444 00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:55.920 leave this episode with and to start doing differently? Well, I mean the 445 00:34:55.920 --> 00:35:00.360 main thing, I think, is you just have to stop and you have 446 00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:04.079 to think. Now, granted, you may not have as much time as 447 00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:07.880 you would like to do that, but I think it's very important to stop 448 00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:13.400 and to think and to remember what you're doing and why you're doing it. 449 00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:21.320 The why often gets forgotten about, and the why is key to to everything 450 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:29.880 and decluttering your riding and just again making sure that you you figure out what 451 00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:37.559 your net net is and emphasizing value. You know, one of the mistakes 452 00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:44.159 that a lot of marketers, and especially a lot of salespeople will make when 453 00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:46.639 they go into a presentation safe for the first time. They're doing a pitch 454 00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:52.119 meeting, and you know there's that expression they show up and they throw up. 455 00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:57.440 They spend a lot of time talking about themselves and again, they don't 456 00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:06.079 really stop to have a dialog or a conversation or listen, to be able 457 00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:08.639 to or they didn't do their research in the beginning, from from before the 458 00:36:08.679 --> 00:36:13.639 meeting, to be able to figure out, okay, what's in it for 459 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:20.400 my audience? What do they need to hear from me? How can I 460 00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:25.440 connect with them, either because I have a product or a service that can 461 00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:30.079 make their life easier, which, you know, in a lot of instances 462 00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:34.360 in the bee to be world. That's what we're talking about. We're talking 463 00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:40.840 about solving pain, ping pain, trying to lessen pain, and you know, 464 00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:45.400 I would say that's another thing when it comes to refining your messaging. 465 00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:50.000 Just to go back to one of your earlier questions, when you are talking 466 00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:53.360 about some of the negatives and figuring out you know, do you address that 467 00:36:53.480 --> 00:36:58.239 negative head on in the negative language? Do you try to turn it around 468 00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:02.320 and into the positive? Sometimes you have to wrestle with those sorts of things 469 00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:10.000 too, but I just think honesty, authenticity, transparency, factoring all of 470 00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:16.519 those things into your word choice and being able to be clever and humorous whenever 471 00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:23.960 you can, forever it's appropriate. I think authenticity and honesty huge. I 472 00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:28.400 love the humor play. I think we're seeing that creep into be to be 473 00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:31.519 a little bit more into up be in and in marketing, and that's refreshing 474 00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:36.360 to me. And I love that you said dclutter you're writing, because that's 475 00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:40.719 a practical exercise for our whole audience. We're all producing content of some kind. 476 00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:45.599 We have blogs on our website, we have copy right that fills our 477 00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:50.639 website pages. I dare you to leave this episode and go look at the 478 00:37:50.679 --> 00:37:53.519 copy you already have, the content you already have, and just as an 479 00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:57.360 exercise. I'm not saying you have to keep it this way, but just 480 00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:00.880 dclutter some piece of content you already have and look at how much simpler you 481 00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:05.559 could have made that look, how much shorter you could have said it, 482 00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:07.000 and the more that you do that. I even think about this with my 483 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:12.440 podcast notes, but I look at the way that I write questions and then 484 00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:15.119 what it would look like to just get straight to the point. Now these 485 00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:19.280 conversations are a lot of back and forth and so we're not always looking for 486 00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:23.440 the shortest route right, but as an exercise, that's content that I'm creating 487 00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:29.039 all the time that I can look at and continue to get better in in 488 00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:31.480 language and being more active, and so, bunny, I really appreciate this 489 00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:35.800 conversation. Kind of my last question as we start to wrap up here. 490 00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:40.239 If listeners were at a leave the conversation and they they move from a passive 491 00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:45.679 communication style to into this active language that we've talked about, what results do 492 00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:51.639 you believe that they'll see? Is there an example you would give us or 493 00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:55.000 a result that you really believe we would experience if we would would take this 494 00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:59.719 on and begin to live from this place of active language? Well, I 495 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:04.800 mean, hopefully they'll see better results from whatever it is they're trying to accomplish 496 00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:08.239 with the content that they're creating, but I would also hope that they would 497 00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:15.280 experience, you know, better relationships, whether that's with coworkers or folks who 498 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:22.320 report to them, clients, folks outside, even inner personal relationships. Because 499 00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:27.000 again, you know, if you think about your word choice, and one 500 00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:30.920 one lesson I arn I learned fairly early, was, you know, when 501 00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:37.360 you're having a conversation and maybe it's a difficult one, instead of making pointed 502 00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:44.320 statements you did this or you didn't do that, asking questions is usually a 503 00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:50.519 really good, safe way to get people to a point you want them to 504 00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:55.199 get to. So that is that is a piece of advice and then just, 505 00:39:55.599 --> 00:40:00.960 you know, the I statements, I feel or I think versus rather 506 00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:07.360 you did or you didn't. Just those changes, I think, can can 507 00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:12.800 have a big difference in how you communicate with people that you work with. 508 00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:16.039 One of the things I'll leave you with, again of a tip I picked 509 00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:19.679 up from somewhere along the way, but it has been, you know, 510 00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:24.079 very valuable, is, you know again, proofread your work, even emails 511 00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:30.199 that you're just sending internally with your colleagues. Please you spell as sick. 512 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:36.719 Please proof because you know if you get an email from someone that's just full 513 00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:43.320 of errors and misspellings, you know that's that's your credibility, and especially those 514 00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:47.280 of us who were in marketing, we need to maintain that credibility in every 515 00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:53.360 channel that we're communicating in, even those internal, seemingly informal ones. And 516 00:40:53.440 --> 00:41:00.840 a tip for proofreading is proof read backwards. Start from the bottom and read 517 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:07.880 your way up, because that way your brain has not memorized or doesn't anticipate 518 00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:13.800 what it thinks is that next logical word. So proof freed backwards. I 519 00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:16.159 have not heard that one and I will leave the episode with that. I 520 00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:22.199 think that is a great last tip for this episode. Okay, Bunny, 521 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:24.559 take the last minute here. Tell us a little bit more about Cork. 522 00:41:24.679 --> 00:41:29.679 I know we touched on it throughout this episode, but give us a little 523 00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:31.920 bit more on what the company does and then tell us where people can stay 524 00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:39.079 connected to you. So quark provides content design, automation and intelligence software and 525 00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:46.440 that is all about content life cycle management, and we've actually got a new 526 00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:52.679 piece of software coming out tomorrow actually, so you can check back at Quarkcom 527 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:59.599 to find out about that. But we're releasing the latest version of our quark 528 00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:04.519 public listening platform. And then, as for keeping up with me, I 529 00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:08.519 am on Linkedin and I'm certainly happy to make connections there. Love it well, 530 00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:13.400 thank you for stopping by BB growth. It has been an honor to 531 00:42:13.400 --> 00:42:15.119 get the chat with you today. Thank you, Benjie. This was fun. 532 00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:21.159 Appreciate the invitation. We're having conversations like this on BB growth because we 533 00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:27.039 want to help fuel all of our listeners growth and innovation right we don't want 534 00:42:27.079 --> 00:42:30.000 you to feel like you're doing this alone, and marketing can feel really shiny 535 00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:34.760 sometimes, but in reality we're all just working on getting better. In this 536 00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:37.960 podcast exists to help us all continue to get better. So if you are 537 00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:42.639 not subscribed to the show yet, I would appreciate if you did that. 538 00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:46.199 That way you never miss an episode and you can subscribe on whatever your favorite 539 00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:51.960 podcast platform is. Connect with me over on Linkedin. Just search Benji Block, 540 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:55.079 always talking about marketing, business and life over there. Keep doing work 541 00:42:55.119 --> 00:43:12.000 that matters. Will be back real soon with another episode. Be Tob growth 542 00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:14.840 is brought to you by the team at sweet fish media. Here at sweet 543 00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:17.679 fish, we produce podcast for some of the most innovative brands in the world 544 00:43:17.719 --> 00:43:22.599 and we help them turn those podcasts into Microvideos, linkedin content, blog post 545 00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:27.280 and more. We're on a mission to produce every leader's favorite show. 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