#Sales 14: Professional Freedom Isn’t a Pipe Dream w/ Chris Walker

WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:10.990 As you build the skills, you build confidence in yourself and when you have 2 00:00:11.150 --> 00:00:17.269 the confidence, that ends up leading to the ability to realize the freedom in 3 00:00:17.550 --> 00:00:23.140 the professional world. Well, welcome everybody to the Hashtag sale series on BB 4 00:00:23.339 --> 00:00:26.460 growth. I'm your shiny boy co host, Patrick Downs, and today I'm 5 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:30.859 massively excited to be joined by Chris Walker, the CEO of refine labs. 6 00:00:31.219 --> 00:00:35.299 Today we're talking about professional freedom and I'm eagles somewhere crying out in the distance 7 00:00:35.700 --> 00:00:41.409 and I have titled Today's Episode Independence Cast Day. I hope that plans. 8 00:00:41.530 --> 00:00:46.530 Probably not, but but, Chris, I would appreciate if you could not 9 00:00:46.649 --> 00:00:49.490 make fun of that and please have some guard your effect. Patrick, what's 10 00:00:49.490 --> 00:00:53.479 up, man, really happy to be here. I am a happy panda 11 00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:57.119 doc customer. So was good too could be, to be invited here. 12 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:03.040 And, and yeah, I mean I I have been an entrepreneur all my 13 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:08.109 life that was locked in a job running side hustles for the first half of 14 00:01:08.230 --> 00:01:15.430 my career and now feel very lucky. On the topic of professional freedom, 15 00:01:15.670 --> 00:01:19.260 to be free to control my own destiny, to control my own compensation, 16 00:01:21.140 --> 00:01:26.540 to control the things that I do based on my core or values, not 17 00:01:26.700 --> 00:01:30.180 on the values of other people that are have a higher title than me in 18 00:01:30.260 --> 00:01:34.650 an organization to be creative and innovate and do things that I believe in. 19 00:01:34.730 --> 00:01:38.969 Then might not be accepted inside of companies. And so for all those reasons, 20 00:01:38.969 --> 00:01:41.769 I just feel like I'm in a really great place. It's not for 21 00:01:41.930 --> 00:01:47.239 everyone. Not everyone would be successful in a situation like this. A lot 22 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:53.200 of people are a lot better employees than they are owners, are entrepreneurs or 23 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:55.519 full freelancers or however you want to look at it, which is fine, 24 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:59.959 as long as you recognize what's most important for you. And so that's a 25 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:04.790 little little context. I appreciate that. And I was Ting through your post 26 00:02:04.870 --> 00:02:07.870 again and at one point you said I am free, like it came out 27 00:02:07.909 --> 00:02:09.710 of nowhere, like could just burst from the night. I was wondering if 28 00:02:09.750 --> 00:02:14.550 that happened while you were still working somewhere and you came to the conclusion that 29 00:02:14.669 --> 00:02:17.099 I actually do have control over actions and what I do, or if it 30 00:02:17.219 --> 00:02:22.699 was when you actually did go out on your own. Yeah, so it's 31 00:02:22.740 --> 00:02:25.860 been a it was a long progression. It will be. It will be 32 00:02:25.979 --> 00:02:30.849 a long progression for most people, unless it's a very natural thing, which 33 00:02:30.889 --> 00:02:36.009 is you probably don't need to listen to this podcast. And so for me, 34 00:02:36.729 --> 00:02:39.689 at like twenty three, I always knew that I wanted to run my 35 00:02:39.729 --> 00:02:44.439 own business and work for myself. I was building e commerce stores in my 36 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:47.919 bedroom at two in the morning on Saturday night, and it's going to my 37 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:52.439 job during the day because I like doing those things. At the beginning of 38 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.759 my career I had a lot of student debt from a really good college that 39 00:02:55.800 --> 00:02:58.669 I went to that I'm grateful for, but I took on debt to do 40 00:02:58.750 --> 00:03:01.389 that. I wasn't in a financial position to make that leap. I also 41 00:03:01.509 --> 00:03:05.669 think, as I reflect on it, that I didn't have the skills that 42 00:03:05.789 --> 00:03:08.389 I needed in order to to do what I'm doing today. It required time. 43 00:03:09.150 --> 00:03:15.020 The first step in doing that was when I was around twenty seven years 44 00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:21.219 old, where I was in a job that I had reached a point where 45 00:03:21.259 --> 00:03:23.580 I wasn't enjoying it anymore. I was stuck. I couldn't innovate. All 46 00:03:23.620 --> 00:03:27.490 the things that I love to do I wasn't able to do, which got 47 00:03:27.569 --> 00:03:30.330 me frustrated, and I think a lot of this will resonate with a lot 48 00:03:30.370 --> 00:03:35.729 of people, which is that I eventually looked at myself and I was like, 49 00:03:35.930 --> 00:03:38.530 why am I staying in this job that I don't like? I do 50 00:03:38.729 --> 00:03:43.680 not need to do this. I'm in control of this situation, and so 51 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:49.080 if I'm in control and I'm accountable to this, I can either suck it 52 00:03:49.159 --> 00:03:51.879 up and continue to go to this job that I don't like and try and 53 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:55.509 figure out if there's a way that I can change what's happening inside of that 54 00:03:55.590 --> 00:04:00.229 job to reflect to make me more happy, or if I'm not able to 55 00:04:00.310 --> 00:04:03.469 do that, I have the freedom to leave. I have the freedom to 56 00:04:03.469 --> 00:04:05.310 leave. I have the freedom to go get another job, I have a 57 00:04:05.389 --> 00:04:10.219 freedom to go start my own company. I have the freedom to do anything 58 00:04:10.419 --> 00:04:14.060 that I want. I think a lot of people and I experienced this early 59 00:04:14.099 --> 00:04:16.819 in my career. It's like I didn't feel like I had that choice. 60 00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:21.259 I felt like I was stuck, and so it takes a lot of like 61 00:04:21.540 --> 00:04:27.410 time and skill development and confidence building and professional development to be in a position 62 00:04:27.449 --> 00:04:32.449 where you can but you can get there. Everyone can. Did the realization 63 00:04:32.649 --> 00:04:36.649 happen before you had developed the skills and then you went head first into developing 64 00:04:36.689 --> 00:04:41.279 them even further? Was it kind of at the same time? So when 65 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:45.480 I when I left that job, actually went into another one, and that 66 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:51.949 change was the beginning process of me figuring out that I'm just not built to 67 00:04:53.069 --> 00:04:59.069 work for somebody else. I'm just not. I need the ability to do 68 00:04:59.350 --> 00:05:01.709 things that a lot of people think are dumb. Like I'm say this, 69 00:05:01.750 --> 00:05:05.629 a lot, a lot of people will resonate if I worked for somebody else, 70 00:05:05.709 --> 00:05:10.300 they would have shut down my linkedin in August of two thousand and nineteen 71 00:05:10.339 --> 00:05:13.899 before any of this happened. And that's just the way it is and that's 72 00:05:13.899 --> 00:05:17.019 how so I need that space to do the things that I believe in that 73 00:05:17.139 --> 00:05:23.889 most people don't believe in at the time. And it's just a it's one 74 00:05:24.889 --> 00:05:28.089 commit to whatever you're trying to do, if it's to work for yourself, 75 00:05:28.129 --> 00:05:30.209 it's to get better, it's to get a promotion, commit to it, 76 00:05:30.209 --> 00:05:34.050 do the things to build the skills that you need to be successful, and 77 00:05:34.089 --> 00:05:39.319 then, three, just go for it. But as you build the skills, 78 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.560 you build confidence in yourself and when you have the confidence, that ends 79 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:49.670 up leading to the ability to realize the freedom in the professional world. At 80 00:05:49.709 --> 00:05:54.790 least that's how it happened for me. Yeah, I hope that more people 81 00:05:54.829 --> 00:05:58.589 start realizing that, because a lot of people kind to me specifically about Linkedin, 82 00:05:59.029 --> 00:06:03.579 and almost every single person I've interviewed has been incredibly anxious before we started 83 00:06:03.660 --> 00:06:05.980 out, like Hey, can you not ask questions about this? I don't 84 00:06:05.980 --> 00:06:09.980 want to talk about this, like I'm talking to like an as actor or 85 00:06:10.060 --> 00:06:13.220 something right there that worried. I'm sure you runner that all the time, 86 00:06:13.300 --> 00:06:15.899 but I used to feel that way and then I just stopped giving a shit 87 00:06:16.420 --> 00:06:19.850 and I started posting stuff that like resonate with me and I got lucky enough 88 00:06:19.850 --> 00:06:23.930 that my company didn't care. But the reality is, though, that people 89 00:06:23.970 --> 00:06:27.730 do right. I mean I've never been in a situation where I've been reprimanded, 90 00:06:27.769 --> 00:06:31.769 but if you heard of situations like that, for sure, like whether 91 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:36.800 you are reprimanded or because of the culture of the organization, you don't even 92 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:40.959 post to have the opportunity to be reprimanded. I think most people fall into 93 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:46.509 that position where it's just not not viewed in the right way from a company 94 00:06:46.550 --> 00:06:51.389 standpoint. Like for me to work in a company and then post about all 95 00:06:51.430 --> 00:06:57.069 the dumb shit that I see companies do would probably get me fired. Right. 96 00:06:57.230 --> 00:07:00.149 It's just the truth, and so I think a lot of people working 97 00:07:00.269 --> 00:07:05.100 companies where that type of behavior is frowned upon. Yeah, I mean even 98 00:07:05.139 --> 00:07:10.459 I did a like a session for my team on pin and almost every single 99 00:07:10.500 --> 00:07:13.579 person said they felt like they couldn't be there their true self. Yes, 100 00:07:13.740 --> 00:07:17.129 on social media, it's true. Do you think people like in leadership positions 101 00:07:17.209 --> 00:07:20.449 have an advantage there, though, where it's like, all right, maybe 102 00:07:20.490 --> 00:07:25.089 they can do it, but people in nicee role maybe can't? I think 103 00:07:25.370 --> 00:07:31.279 at the surface I could understand why people would think that way, but I 104 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:35.519 think if you look really deep it's not any different. I think it's more 105 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:45.350 about the person that's the marketing manager, how they subjectively feel and that prevents 106 00:07:45.430 --> 00:07:48.149 them from posting. But I think if you had two people that were posting 107 00:07:48.189 --> 00:07:51.790 the same stuff and the only difference was that their seniority was different, I 108 00:07:51.910 --> 00:07:56.709 actually don't think that it would be viewed differently from an internal perspective. From 109 00:07:56.709 --> 00:08:01.779 an external perspective there's a different story, but internally, I'm not sure if 110 00:08:01.819 --> 00:08:03.819 any of my employees are listening to this. Please start posting steward shit. 111 00:08:03.860 --> 00:08:07.620 I'm linked in to test his theory. Yeah, let's see what happens. 112 00:08:07.660 --> 00:08:09.620 Would be interesting. Yeah, I still be the clip to it. I'll 113 00:08:09.620 --> 00:08:15.769 like it everything. So I was curious as well on a point from your 114 00:08:15.810 --> 00:08:20.089 post. You had said that there were some decisions being made that did not 115 00:08:20.129 --> 00:08:24.089 align with your values and that you felt like you would have the ability to 116 00:08:24.170 --> 00:08:28.639 speak up about that. Is that something you did while you're working for other 117 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:33.279 people? Yeah, whether they I mean, the most obvious one that comes 118 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:39.679 to mind for me is in companies that do things that are in their best 119 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:43.389 interest, knowingly not in the best interest of their customers, in order to 120 00:08:43.470 --> 00:08:46.629 hit their own goals, which does not align with the way that I see 121 00:08:46.669 --> 00:08:50.789 the world, and so I think that, if you think about it, 122 00:08:50.870 --> 00:08:54.110 there's a million permutations of something like that that could happen in the company that 123 00:08:54.190 --> 00:09:00.500 doesn't align with either values or strategic vision. Like I recognize it, a 124 00:09:00.539 --> 00:09:03.299 lot of people don't have the strategic vision that I have for and how I 125 00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:09.529 see the world, but, like my my vision is very much so misaligned 126 00:09:09.570 --> 00:09:16.649 with a majority of venture back companies, and so it would be hard for 127 00:09:16.769 --> 00:09:20.649 me to continue to support an organization that doesn't align with the way I see 128 00:09:20.690 --> 00:09:24.919 the world, and so that's kind of like the realization that took me a 129 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:28.960 pretty long time to get to, but that's where I am now. What 130 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:31.840 does it sound like to start speaking up against that? Like if somebody did 131 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:33.879 feel that land, and a lot of people do, but they don't say 132 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:37.039 anything. Like. Is there a good way to go about that, to 133 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:43.269 actually enact change? Yeah, I mean the easiest two ways that I've found 134 00:09:43.750 --> 00:09:50.429 to enact change in in an organization is the most the most important one is 135 00:09:50.590 --> 00:09:56.659 to remove your subjective opinion and put it in speaking in the words of a 136 00:09:56.779 --> 00:10:00.980 customer. And so if you want to get something done, like we should 137 00:10:00.980 --> 00:10:05.220 build this product or we should do this instead, or we should adjust our 138 00:10:05.299 --> 00:10:11.009 pricing model, then I would run a non bias survey to customers. Non 139 00:10:11.129 --> 00:10:13.009 Biased mean you don't ask leading questions so that they tell you the answer that 140 00:10:13.090 --> 00:10:18.649 you want, like a real survey or qualitative or anything, and then go 141 00:10:18.889 --> 00:10:22.720 back to executive and say, Hey, I know you wanted to do x, 142 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:26.360 Y and Z with the product, but here's what customers say. What 143 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.759 do you think about that? So that's one. That's one way that I 144 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:33.399 found that work for all. The second thing is to back it up with 145 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:39.389 just objective data, and so an example of that might be, you know, 146 00:10:41.669 --> 00:10:45.669 I know that we want to continue to generate all these leads we've been 147 00:10:45.669 --> 00:10:48.350 running. We've been doing this content syndication for the past thirty six months. 148 00:10:50.019 --> 00:10:52.259 We've gotten a hundred thousand leads from it. We've spent this much money. 149 00:10:52.299 --> 00:10:56.139 Fifty dollars a lead, so we spent whatever that is, five million dollars 150 00:10:56.179 --> 00:11:00.019 or something. If I can do the math in my head, and we 151 00:11:00.139 --> 00:11:03.139 got this much revenue, then like the math, that doesn't seem to make 152 00:11:03.220 --> 00:11:05.889 sense to me. I'm thinking that we might want to take some of the 153 00:11:05.929 --> 00:11:09.889 money that we're doing over here that's non productive and move it to something like 154 00:11:11.009 --> 00:11:13.970 this. What do you think about that? And those are a couple ways 155 00:11:13.009 --> 00:11:18.570 that I think are good ways to approach it and not what we're doing is 156 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:22.080 dumb. You guys are not going in the right direction. I don't feel 157 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:26.360 like that is the right way to approach it. And so, yeah, 158 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:31.000 those are some of the things that I've figured out. More strategic and eloquent 159 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:37.750 things ways to approach it then when I was younger, because I know a 160 00:11:37.830 --> 00:11:39.669 couple people that feel the same way that, but they probably spend most of 161 00:11:39.669 --> 00:11:43.549 their time on that topic, like scribbling it in a notebook or plotting revenge 162 00:11:43.789 --> 00:11:48.419 inside of their head. It's instead of doing something about it. Well, 163 00:11:48.460 --> 00:11:50.620 why do you think that fear exist? Is it mostly just like I don't 164 00:11:50.659 --> 00:11:54.460 want to be a homeless person and that that doesn't exist in a capitalist society, 165 00:11:54.860 --> 00:12:01.250 or is there something greater there? I think it's hard to see all 166 00:12:01.289 --> 00:12:05.809 of the options when you're so narrowed in. Right, like when I was 167 00:12:07.049 --> 00:12:11.330 in some of those companies, one I'd bills to pay, so I like 168 00:12:11.490 --> 00:12:16.080 couldn't lose my job. Right. So even the idea of putting yourself in 169 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:20.399 a position where you might is scary for people. And so it just goes 170 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.480 back to the framework at the beginning. Commit build skills. Once you have 171 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.759 the skills, you realize that the world is abundant, that if this company 172 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:31.750 decided to fire you could go and get a job at a hundred other companies, 173 00:12:33.629 --> 00:12:37.830 or you could immediately go and take three contract roles and make twice as 174 00:12:37.870 --> 00:12:41.429 much money as you are in this one company, working part time. Like 175 00:12:41.789 --> 00:12:46.899 both of those things are more than possible. And so when you have those 176 00:12:46.980 --> 00:12:52.539 options, it then, I'll empowers you to be more direct. That the 177 00:12:52.580 --> 00:12:54.620 way that I've found that it works and then the last thing that I'm thinking 178 00:12:54.659 --> 00:12:58.610 about is like, when I was challenging the views, I took myself out 179 00:12:58.649 --> 00:13:03.210 of my role and I put myself in the what if I was the advisor 180 00:13:03.330 --> 00:13:07.570 to the CEO? What would I tell them then? And so it was 181 00:13:07.649 --> 00:13:11.049 always thinking of the best interest of the customer and the company, not about 182 00:13:11.049 --> 00:13:15.919 what was in the best interest for me. And so when if you can 183 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:20.200 remove that element as best you can and feel true to that, then what 184 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:26.000 you're saying is the right thing to say. And yes, there will be 185 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:28.870 instances where you're in the wrong company and you get fired for that and, 186 00:13:30.309 --> 00:13:31.909 to be honest, you wanted to get fired. If you get fired for 187 00:13:33.029 --> 00:13:37.389 doing that, it's actually a good thing. That's hard to say. Sometimes 188 00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:41.350 it's like it's a good thing to get fired, but I agree. I 189 00:13:41.460 --> 00:13:43.659 mean I think people limit themselves a lot. Thing that the word dust. 190 00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:46.100 I like, I'm just this. People wouldn't want to hear from me. 191 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:50.179 I hear that all the time and I talked about linkedin right. There's not 192 00:13:50.299 --> 00:13:52.100 that I could say that someone else wouldn't say. I don't have any value 193 00:13:52.139 --> 00:13:54.809 to add. It's so common and some of the people saying that or that 194 00:13:56.009 --> 00:13:58.850 from the brightest people I know, and I'm like you talking about exactly what 195 00:13:58.970 --> 00:14:01.570 were you thinking when you were saying stuff like that, like what was it 196 00:14:01.809 --> 00:14:05.090 coming from? Logic, or was it just fear? Who's just like, 197 00:14:07.690 --> 00:14:11.440 look at this, I guy Dave Garrehard, he's getting a million, ten 198 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:15.240 million views on every post. Like there's so many people out here posting. 199 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:18.440 I'm not bringing anything new to the table. It's all bullshit. It's all 200 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.320 bullshit. You tell yourself not to do something, it's just excuses, and 201 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:26.669 so I've started to frame it in a different way in my mind. So, 202 00:14:26.830 --> 00:14:31.789 like every critical decision I've made in the last twelve months, I was 203 00:14:31.909 --> 00:14:35.870 scared because it was it was a critical decision because it was paving new ground 204 00:14:35.909 --> 00:14:41.659 in my life, for my career, and when you're thinking about doing it, 205 00:14:41.740 --> 00:14:45.820 it's scary and then once you do it it's not scary. And so 206 00:14:46.539 --> 00:14:52.019 that's and it's if I had not made there's probably like three or four key 207 00:14:52.220 --> 00:14:56.009 ones. By not made those decisions, I really don't feel like where I 208 00:14:56.049 --> 00:14:58.409 would be where I am today. Well, were those key decisions. The 209 00:14:58.929 --> 00:15:05.769 one that really sticks out into my in my mind is I had this thislike 210 00:15:05.690 --> 00:15:13.360 real feeling that if companies stopped building stupid trade show booths and started doing field 211 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:16.879 marketing events, but the field marketing event was an event to create content and 212 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:20.159 bring value to the audience, not to drive leads that you could cold call 213 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:22.909 them the next day. Then you could build an event. You could divide 214 00:15:22.909 --> 00:15:26.870 fifty people and you could have a thought leader there, you could interview them, 215 00:15:26.029 --> 00:15:30.190 you could take q Anda, you would make a ninety minute video and 216 00:15:30.269 --> 00:15:35.230 then the video asset becomes the value of the event, not the people that 217 00:15:35.740 --> 00:15:37.779 that show up. And so that was my theory. And then if a 218 00:15:37.860 --> 00:15:41.379 company was spend a million dollars on a trade show, then what if they, 219 00:15:43.220 --> 00:15:46.820 instead of doing doing a million dollars a year on trade shows, they 220 00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:50.529 only did three hundred and they spent the seven hundred doing these events, one 221 00:15:50.570 --> 00:15:52.970 a week across the country, and they would if they did one a week 222 00:15:52.970 --> 00:15:58.289 across the country, then they would theoretically have fifty two long form video assets 223 00:15:58.330 --> 00:16:03.769 they could then break down and create a ton of content. And so my 224 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:10.200 my objective was to do one to understand what it what it was like. 225 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:14.120 I needed it to taste it so that and also to show the companies that 226 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:15.919 I work for, what good looks like. Instead of doing this, you 227 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.350 could do this. Here's what the output is, here's what the Roy is, 228 00:16:18.429 --> 00:16:22.110 heres how you distribute the content, here's what to do, here's how 229 00:16:22.149 --> 00:16:26.429 much it's going to cost. Go get it done. And and so I 230 00:16:26.629 --> 00:16:29.710 had every I had everything I needed to do the event and Josh Fro on, 231 00:16:29.750 --> 00:16:33.220 which we did in January, which was amazing, and I had everything 232 00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:34.500 that I needed to make the decision. I knew how much the event was 233 00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:37.379 going to cost. I knew how much it was going to cost a fly 234 00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:40.139 the videographers there. I knew how much the video editing was going to cost. 235 00:16:40.179 --> 00:16:41.460 On you, how much the food was going to cost. I had 236 00:16:41.500 --> 00:16:45.580 all in front of me. was like a Twelvezero bill and I was like, 237 00:16:45.500 --> 00:16:48.970 what if I say yes to this and then nobody shows up? It 238 00:16:49.009 --> 00:16:52.370 would be a huge waste, it would be a waste of money. I 239 00:16:52.049 --> 00:16:56.529 would embarrass myself in front of Josh telling myself all these stupid things. And 240 00:16:56.730 --> 00:17:00.480 then it was sitting on my desk and one day I was just like fuck 241 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:04.640 it, like we're doing this, and I just in a just came down 242 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:10.400 to commit and then go and get it done and forty people will showed up. 243 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:12.119 We created an awesome video. It gave me the confidence to do the 244 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.150 next one with Justin wells the next month, and we would have done one 245 00:17:15.190 --> 00:17:21.150 in San Francisco and Austin and Toronto and Boston and Chicago if this hadn't happened. 246 00:17:21.190 --> 00:17:22.269 We had them all lined up. That had to get canceled. And 247 00:17:22.349 --> 00:17:26.190 so, like now I'm ready to go and do those things that I was 248 00:17:26.309 --> 00:17:30.460 at one point scared to do. And I knew, I know for sure 249 00:17:30.980 --> 00:17:36.579 that the twelvezero spent drove in enormous sorrow. I and so first time I 250 00:17:36.700 --> 00:17:38.900 ever noticed you was that video with Josh. No way it is. Yeah, 251 00:17:38.900 --> 00:17:42.220 I remember seeing I love Josh and I was like, Oh, who's 252 00:17:42.259 --> 00:17:45.569 this guy sitting next to him? Is Very nice hair. I should check 253 00:17:45.609 --> 00:17:49.089 them out. And so that, I mean, that is like the the 254 00:17:51.210 --> 00:17:55.609 key point, if a company's listening, to think about whether the idea of 255 00:17:55.730 --> 00:17:59.920 doing their trade show booth that a hundred fifty people stumble by when they're looking 256 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:03.279 for coffee, versus doing something like that with someone that has fiftyzero followers in 257 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:08.759 the exact target market the year going after and doing the event and getting exposure 258 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:12.789 to the people that already follow them and elevating your brand to where their brand 259 00:18:12.950 --> 00:18:18.269 is. Like. There's so many strategic reasons for the twelvezero investment to do 260 00:18:18.430 --> 00:18:23.349 the video and the whole event that I just find to be a better like 261 00:18:23.509 --> 00:18:29.099 event strategy. So that was one. That was one point when I was 262 00:18:29.740 --> 00:18:33.619 I had all the stuff, I was scared to make a decision. Made 263 00:18:33.619 --> 00:18:37.339 the decision. It turned out amazing. mean if it didn't turn out amazing 264 00:18:37.420 --> 00:18:40.660 and I would have learned a bunch of Shit. And so either way, 265 00:18:40.859 --> 00:18:47.130 like I think we even myself a very guilty of this, telling stories in 266 00:18:47.210 --> 00:18:51.210 your head that prevent you from moving forward. And that was when you were 267 00:18:51.289 --> 00:18:53.329 on your own, right when you made that decision I had. I was 268 00:18:53.410 --> 00:18:56.960 me and one other person and the company. Yeah, so do you think 269 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.960 you would have made that decision if you were like the head of marketing somewhere 270 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:04.000 without a phone? I would have made the decision. If whether or not 271 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:07.799 I would have been allowed to make the decision as a different story, which 272 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:10.869 is fascinating if you think about the head of marketing not being able to make 273 00:19:10.910 --> 00:19:15.829 that decision. It's fascinating, but it's true and so I just when I 274 00:19:17.309 --> 00:19:21.269 think about some of these things, it's really interesting to frame it up, 275 00:19:21.390 --> 00:19:23.700 like if you're the head of marketing, if it was your money, would 276 00:19:23.700 --> 00:19:29.140 you spend it? If it was your hundred thousand dollars that you're building out 277 00:19:29.180 --> 00:19:33.380 that booth at the industry conference and you need to have a positive roy to 278 00:19:33.420 --> 00:19:34.980 put food on the table for your family and send your kids to college, 279 00:19:36.259 --> 00:19:38.930 would you still put that hundred thousand dollars into that trade show? Would you 280 00:19:38.970 --> 00:19:45.049 do something different? I'm really curious because I would have to say that ninety 281 00:19:45.049 --> 00:19:48.450 nine point nine percent of people would not spend a hundred thousand dollars or their 282 00:19:48.450 --> 00:19:52.000 own money on that event and expect a Positi of Roy. Yet when it's 283 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:56.240 not their own money, they love doing it. It's also just things that 284 00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.960 have been done in the past. They're just like repeating you know well, 285 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.240 fired for building a trade a with at a trade show, for the one 286 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:06.559 that you've been going for for the past twenty years. You don't get fired 287 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:11.509 for doing all of the stuff that's accepted, doing abm to make it set 288 00:20:11.869 --> 00:20:15.150 to your organization feel like you're doing something innovative. That the paradox. There's 289 00:20:15.190 --> 00:20:18.430 like all of those things became standard because someone tried something new with the first 290 00:20:18.470 --> 00:20:22.180 place. So it's just such strange thinking. It's bizarre, man, but 291 00:20:22.420 --> 00:20:26.740 I'm glad that I saw you in that video. Yeah, that is like, 292 00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:29.819 Oh man, I was like Travis Kickers Walker, I like that guy. 293 00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:33.740 John said it was really smart shit that night. It did. Yeah, 294 00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:36.930 he's a smart guy. It's funny when you put a camera a smart 295 00:20:37.009 --> 00:20:38.890 people like a content comes out. Yeah, man. And so, like 296 00:20:40.089 --> 00:20:42.650 the thesis on this is you could go around to every city. There's a 297 00:20:42.849 --> 00:20:47.890 there's a Josh Braun, not exactly Josh Brown, but there's someone like Josh 298 00:20:47.930 --> 00:20:51.440 Brown and every in every major city, and you go around and collect that. 299 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:53.680 Dave Gerharten Boston, which is one that I have on the docket that 300 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:57.119 would love to make happen. You know some peeple, someone in Austin, 301 00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:02.160 Texas. SO WHEN IN TORONTO? Those are to get back to the original 302 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:06.309 point, that's like one time where I felt felt scared to make a decision 303 00:21:06.430 --> 00:21:11.549 that wasn't very scary, just like, just like posting the first time on 304 00:21:11.710 --> 00:21:14.509 Linkedin. Yeah, I guys, just post on like then. Just do 305 00:21:14.670 --> 00:21:18.619 it. I'm telling you, nothing bad's going to happen. That might actually 306 00:21:19.700 --> 00:21:22.019 so to end with scared in the audience. I think that's a good place. 307 00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:26.140 Chris, is there anything that you want to plug here on the plugs 308 00:21:26.299 --> 00:21:32.059 it so if you liked what you're heart on this podcast or on this one, 309 00:21:32.779 --> 00:21:36.690 we host podcast called the state of Demanda and there's forty episodes up there. 310 00:21:36.690 --> 00:21:40.170 We're putting three to five up every week for people that are looking for 311 00:21:40.890 --> 00:21:45.970 a forward thinking, unique way to approach the managem and think about marketing. 312 00:21:45.650 --> 00:21:48.720 Would highly recommend that you check that out. There's a ton of different content 313 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:56.000 types, a lot of detailed, both strategic and deep tactical work going on 314 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:59.160 there. So I'd recommend that you check it out. I gotta check out 315 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:00.750 the PODCAST. Honestly, that's going to be what I did this weekend. 316 00:22:00.789 --> 00:22:06.230 ENIC right on. I appreciate you being here, man, I really really 317 00:22:06.309 --> 00:22:11.390 do. And if you guys want to find us on Instagram, Linkedin, 318 00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:14.910 Youtube, anywhere, spotify, where you find your podcast, it's be to 319 00:22:14.950 --> 00:22:18.859 be growth. You can listen to the Hashtag sale series and once again you 320 00:22:18.940 --> 00:22:22.299 are shiny black cohost, patrick downs. The independence cast a did not land, 321 00:22:22.339 --> 00:22:25.900 so I won't repeat it that I just kind of did, and I 322 00:22:25.940 --> 00:22:27.539 will see you guys again next week. Thank you so much for listening. 323 00:22:30.210 --> 00:22:33.809 This episode is brought to you by Panda Doc. Sending your documents is pdf 324 00:22:33.970 --> 00:22:37.450 through email is super old school. 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