Transcript
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Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be to be growth.
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Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm your host, Benjie Block,
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and today we are joined by obviously
a very dear friend of feed of be
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growth, a former host, someone
that you guys are all probably well aware
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of, Mr Dan Sanchez Dan Chez. As many of you would know,
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I'm director of audience growth here at
sweet fish. Dan, we're glad to
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have you here with us today.
It's fun to be back on the other
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side because as a past host,
I've interviewed other pass hosts and have made
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the same introduction on my huh.
We welcome back. It's kind of weird
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to be the show so so many
hosts, so many episodes. Oh Man,
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yeah, it is so funny,
like interviewing rex, who was on
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way back in the day, and
we've had some of those, like previous
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hosts that are back and but it's
always fun to get to chat with you
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and glad you're here. So here's
the deal. The last year you have
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had quite that evolution. You've been
focused in on a number of things,
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so just catch us up to speed
real quick. What have you been working
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on and what's your what's your attention
been on lately here Nice? I like
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that late in man. Working at
a startup is not for the faint of
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heart and honestly, I don't think
I could have it any other way.
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I'm pretty much addicted to two types
of organizations, startups and nonfits, because
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there's no red tape around things.
If you have an idea in a vision
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to see things through, it's like, as long as it doesn't cost a
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lot of money and you can pretty
much handle it yourself. Not Profits and
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startups will just let you go at
it, which is kind of what I
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love. You can just go in
totally different directions and try new things and
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fail and try and win. You
know, big visions, small budgets,
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and then you're trying to do the
crazy stuff, which is the end at
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fast. Usually I love the atmosphere
of these types of workizations, and sweetish
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is no exception. I'd say.
We're just beyond the startup phase. We
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know who we are, we know
who we serve, we know we have
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good stuff. What we have a
product, good product, market fit,
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as they say. But still we're
scaling up and it leads to all kinds
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of interesting hurdles but oftentimes opportunities.
So even just a few months ago I
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was presented with an opportunity to actually
not just be the director of marketing but
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butcher's suit pursue audience growth as a
full time thing, even though that was
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already in my title, is already
the director of audience growth, that was
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already consulting customers on Audience Growth Multiple
Times a week as well as running marketing.
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I left my marketing responsibilities behind and
then just started pursuing building a product
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around audience growth and we're slowly rolling
that out still. In addition, we're
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still trying to grow the audience for
sweetish. We have this awesome podcast BB
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growth, but I launched a whole
new podcast just around audience growth called attention.
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So that's kind of what I've been
working on like feverishly over the last
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few months. It's a pretty big
shift to my daily Ray responsibilities, not
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being over sweet fishes general marketing,
but I'm still consulting customers on audience growth,
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I'm still building podcasts. Is just
not betb growth, whole new podcast.
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You can find it their attentioncom but
that it's going to continue growing.
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But now we've shifted again and we're
starting on a new endeavor. Yep,
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yeah, and so I guess that
the words become audience, which is something
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you've been thinking about a lot over
the last few months, and then community,
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right, and so you're thinking a
lot about both, and I want
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to jump in here today with kind
of pondering both of those. Like how
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do you see, with the work
you've done around audience and now thinking about
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community, how you see those things
really differing? And kind of a second
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question here. What do you think
is more difficult to foster and why?
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Man, they are different and it's
hard because a lot of people are throwing
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these terms around all the time and
they kind of mean one or the other
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or kind of goes back and forth. They say one but they mean the
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other. To meet it was really
clear from the beginning Seth Goden, who's
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like like a saint of of marketing
thinking, right. He's are Yoda influenced
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many marketers like, well, a
lot of millennial marketers and probably jen x
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marketers specifically. He wrote a fantastic
book that was pivotal, called tribes,
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where he really spells out audience growth
and community, and audience grew growth.
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He defines as like the one to
many connection. It's mainly mainly one person
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or one company with the attention and
communication to many individuals that are giving them
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their attention right and it might be
a die and engaged audience where that person
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or company is engaging in dialoging with
all these separate people. But all those
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people aren't talking to each other.
But that's an audience. You have a
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bunch of people listening to you,
but those people aren't necessarily talking to each
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other. Now, if all those
people are talking to each other and they
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all have similar things in common,
whether it's the types of companies they work
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for, the types of work they
do, or similar interest similar backgrounds,
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geographic locations, whatever it is,
there's something that ties them together. If
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they're all talking together and there's not
a clear hierarchy, they're just all gathering
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together on one topic, that's a
community. If you have both together,
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where there's an audience and a community, that's what Seth God and calls a
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tribe. The funny thing is they
can be separate. A community doesn't necessarily
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have to have a leader. There
is all kinds of groups out there that
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are genuine communities. All the communities
really serving each other, helping each other,
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talking and having a lot of getting
a lot of value out of that
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community. But they don't necessarily have
a leader. And there's lots of audiences,
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of course, that aren't communities,
but both can go handinhand as well.
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You can use community to build an
audience, you can use an audience
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to build a community. They can
go either way. When I think of
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audience, like just to because I'm
very visual person. So when I when
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I think of an audience, I
think of people sitting like in an amphitheater
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watching a show. You're watching what's
happening on a stage, right. And
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when you think of community, I
think of like an AA meeting. We're
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like they're sitting in a circle,
you're looking at each other. It's just
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probably a smaller group where more people
have an opportunity. You, you say
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your peace and people chime in and
there's a back and a forth. When
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you think of how they can feed
each other, I didn't know we were
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going to go this way, but
I kind of want to ask you a
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follow up question here, like how
do you see them feeding each other,
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and which one do you think if
you were like just starting and you can
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create whatever you want. Dan,
which one would you build first right now?
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I would start with audience growth because
that's kind of what I have my
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experience in and it's easier for me. I know more about audience growth,
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and idea community communities kind of a
new topic for me. Well, I've
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been in communities and I've done I've
done I've done some community related things.
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I've been a social media manager before. I've developed small intimate groups and have
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led many small intimate groups before,
even that of my own making, where
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I go and find a bunch of
people I like and we get together in
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a group, we talk and we
we help each other, we learn from
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each other. Like I've done a
lot of the activities, but never have
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been charged or cast with creating a
community that wasn't already meeting right. MMM.
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So, just because I've more familiar
with one, I'd probably start with
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audience growth and then you who's a
build up of an audience in order to
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then start connecting the audience members to
each other. But honestly, you could
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go the total opposite way. If
you have more of a knack for bringing
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people together, then you can actually
start to build an audience out of all
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those community members. There's even a
fantastic book for startups of people who want
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to go into pre existing communities in
order to build audiences from them to then
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launch a product to there's a great
book. It's called the embedded entrepreneur.
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I'm looking at my bookshof on my
God, it's color coded, so I'm
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like, where is the light?
There is the embedded entrepreneur. It's a
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fantastic book about how to essentially go
into existing communities that are out there,
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becoming part of the group, serving, helping, becoming known and an authority
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figure in the growing an audience from
it so that you can build a business
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with authority already built and you don't
have to do the marketing so much because
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you've already built the relationships. So
I think both methods are viable. It
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just depends on I don't know which
one's your forte exactly. I love how
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you can kind of come at this
from either angle and lean into something we
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talked about here. We've talked about
it recently, but like your personality,
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your unique point of view, that
you're definitely going to have a leaning wet
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in this conversation. Okay, so
you're thinking about community. Let's go down
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this road a little bit more,
because maybe audience is something that comes a
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little more naturally to you. You're
having to put in the work to really
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learn on the community side of things. What makes you really passionate about the
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community side? What do you start
to realize this could be a pretty incredible
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lane to run in and and what
gets you excited about it? I get
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excited because I love learning and I
find the best learning happens with other people.
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I'm really good at learning by myself. I mean I'm an avid reader.
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I'll go on along run and listen
to like five bucks over a couple
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of weeks on one topic and then
blog about it and talk about it and
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play with it and do it like
I love. I love just storing myself
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in. But honestly, some of
the best learnings that you can never get
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from books is from genuine conversations with
other people who are doing the same thing
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you are, and I missed that. I think I took for granted how
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much that kind of happened naturally when
I was in a work environment post pandemic,
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when a lot of people are working
for mote and I've been working remote
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since the pandemic. That hasn't been
nearly as much as it should be.
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Praise God, I got on Linkedin
right away and Linkedin has been that community
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for me. So I have fantastic
conversationss in the comments all the time where
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I throw out ideas, people challenge
them and we go back and forth and
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sometimes I back down from things,
sometimes I only become more resolved in my
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points of view. But that's where
a lot of the learning comes from me
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and honestly it's more rewarding just because
these aren't just people that I'm learning from,
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like I'm building genuine relationships with right, all the sudden work is more
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entrenched in real meaning, right,
because relationships give meaning to things. That
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makes things more valuable and more fun
and more interesting and worthwhile. So it's
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not just me working here for a
paycheck. I'm living life. I mean,
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we're going to spend ninetyzero hours in
our job, it better it should
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be meaningful in some way and relationships
is a big part of that. Yeah,
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so that's what I like about community. I've done it in some avenues,
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but I also just wanted to start
being more intentional about it in cultivating
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it stronger just beyond me, because
I might have a lot of relationships on
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Linkedin, but I want to start
pulling in other people to make it beneficial
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for other people to get the same
amount of, I don't know, relationships
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that I have through something like Linkedin, though it doesn't necessarily have to be
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through linkedin. I think one thing
that you said that's interesting that I'm definitely
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watching in this post pandemic timeframe is
like I don't think it's we're in this
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interesting space where communities being talked about, like I mean, if you scroll
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Linkedin, it's like one in every
five post is guy. I mean it
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is everywhere right and a lot of
it is brought on because I think we're
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feeling and sensing something under the surface
of like a need to connect with other
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people in the post pandemic timeframe in
a way, and obviously we're trying to
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drive business. There's like all these
other things too that people are doing with
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community when they're bringing it up on
Linkedin. But at its core I do
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think there's this we're all wrestling with. So much changed by going remote.
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How do we genuinely connect with others
that are interested in similar things to us
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now that we're all spread out here. We're all you know, but how
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can we gather around a common interest? And I'm very interested to see how
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community continues to grow, as were, getting more and more used to remote
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work, but also needing to connect
with other people that are interested in similar
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things. So I love the potential
for for where community can go. Let's
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talk specifically about the type of community
that you're now focused on building. Dan
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Be to be podcasting right. Walk
us through what this is going to look
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like in a little bit of of
what Mc Club is exactly. You know,
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it's funny. Essentially, a couple
of weeks ago, James Carberry,
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the founder of sweet fish, pulled
me aside. He's like, Hey,
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I really want you to focus on
my club, which is the community,
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and we've had some soft launches of
this thing. We put out some content
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and our might club the podcast before
and I was like Huh, okay,
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and I just kind of like,
I didn't say, I didn't I didn't
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hit an enthusiastically at first, but
I didn't say I didn't downplay it.
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I was just kind of like okay, I just kind of gave it a
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few days and then I heard a
podcast with Mr Beast yeah and Joe Rogan,
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fantastic freaking podcast. You have to
go listen to it if you're in
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content creation at all, and there
was something he said in there. As
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I was thinking about this mic club
thing, this community thing, I'm like,
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Huh, how can I take this
on? How can I actually do
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something with this? I'm more of
an audience growth guy than a community builder,
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but I'm intrigued about this and there
was something that Mr be said that
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he did early on in his youtube
career that clicked with me and I'm like,
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that's what my club could be.
HMM. He talked about when he
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first went hard Coren to Youtube,
be pretty much isolated. This is an
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extreme example, but he isolated himself, did nothing but youtube, thought,
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Youtube, dreamed, Youtube, accept
obsessed over Youtube, read everything, talked
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to everyone who knew anything, which
in those days was very little, and
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found a few other people. That's
the key idea. Found a few other
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people that were doing the same thing. He was trying to go after the
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same thing, and they talked together, they work together. They essentially formed
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their own little private community to accelerate
their growth together and to get essentially to
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get some kind of meaning, you
like, some sense of belonging to something
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right, because nobody else understood him. To everybody else they were freaks,
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they were weird, like nobody was
into Youtube back then, but these few
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people did. And because of that, because of the sharpening, not only
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were they sharpening themselves by learning and
growing and try and experimenting, but doing
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it with other people means you could
just go so much farther faster, you
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know. And there's that I think
it's an African quote, like if you
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want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far,
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go together. Yep, can tell
you. And Swahili they say pull
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a, pull a mean Yep,
and that's what he did. And I'm
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like, I remember listening to that
and I was like, yes, that's
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what I want, and I'm not
going after Youtube. I'm a BB podcaster
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and I want that kind of community. I want some some other BB podcast
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just to rub shoulders with and go
in it together. Maybe not with the
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same level of and die hard intensity
that miss your beast did, but not
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too far off either. I would
love to be going at it with a
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group of people, maybe with that
intimate group and then a broad our community,
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all trying to go together, because
even though I talked a lots of
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people about podcasting on Linkedin, MMM, still not quite the same. It's
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not the same as going at it
with a group the people that are all
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dedicated to this idea of how to
make awesome content with the PODCAST, how
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to improve their hosting, the technical
side, the microphones, the scripting,
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how to do better pre interviews,
like all the little tiny details that it
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takes to be great, how to
do them better, and then go and
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seek expert help, you know,
and go pursue it, have accountability together.
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Yeah, okay. So let's go
practical here. On my club.
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You mentioned some soft launches, you
mentioned some stuff that we've done in the
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past. Let's compare contrast. What
was it before and maybe like what people
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have seen versus where you see this
thing going and what's going to be different
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now? Moving ahead down so before
my club was a podcast, we essentially
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had always set a goal of launching
with members, but we had a hard
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time figuring out like, what is
membership look like? How and how do
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we do we gate all the content
for the members? We put it out
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there. So we were just publishing
episodes we were essentially dumping our best ideas
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on podcasting into a podcast, you
know, little Meta, but it worked.
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People would ask questions and instead of
just sending the individual the response,
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we would record it and drop it
into an episode and call it. My
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Club did that for a few months
and then, and other things happen,
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that kind of went to the wayside
for a while. So that's what it
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was. Now my club is a
community. It's still going to have a
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podcast in the middle, feeding out
some content every week with a couple of
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us from sweet fish talking about things
that are going on that are relevant to
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bb podcaster is talking about industry,
podcasting news that's relevant for be tob highlighting
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members and what they're doing well and
answering frequently ask questions that we're seeing from
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from members. But it's going to
be more than that podcast. It's going
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to be a daily channel where we
can actually talk about what we're doing on
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a daily basis and actually have those
conversations. That makes a community a community
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again, members talking to themselves,
not just someone speaking from a stage,
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even if it's a digital, work
from home, yeah, studio stage.
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So that's a part and then doing
a monthly get together digitally in a Webinar,
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but something that's more than a Webinar
actually include including community participation, probably
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highlighting a few members and doing a
teardown of podcasts, bringing in an expert
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speaker from the outside to bring value
to the members every single month. And
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what I'm trying to work on right
now is actually doing a live event.
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Now it's going to start small,
so I don't want to promise like we're
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going to launch our own event with
its own venue and everything, but I'm
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like, man, could we like
piggyback off the back of podcast movement,
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since that's already a podcasting event that
would be mostly relevant for Beb podcasters than
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just do a breakout from that?
That's what we're kind of organizing now.
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Details still to come on that of
when and if we're going to be doing
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that. I guess podcast movements at
the end of August, so there's a
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general timeline, but that's kind of
what we're looking at and starting small,
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starting intimate. We're hoping to launch
with probably a hundred members and probably launching
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with one core group to do that, Mr Beast kind of group, and
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I'm going to be reaching out to
individual BEDB podcasters that I think would be
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interested, some that are in sweetfish, some that are outside is sweet fish,
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to see if we could find a
crew if you think that would be
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you, like you want to be
intense and meet weekly with me and just
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a bunch of others just kind of
go round table and go and just pursue
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perfection. When it comes to be
to be podcasting, you can certainly reach
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out to me and I'll can will
consider bringing you into that group and we
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might break out more small groups afterwards. But there's going to be a season
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where there's just one group and I
think we're going to be publishing everything live,
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but only members can actually take part
in the conversation contribute to the monthly
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live meeting. All the information will
be accessible, but for members who are
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actively working on a b Tob podcast, membership means you get to actually participate
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in the community. I think you
just answered a key question that I haven't
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followed to that. I love.
All of that very interesting. I think
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it's needed, especially for be to
be podcasters. Like we're hitting a really
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hyper specific niche. But WHO's a
good fit? And you just spoke to
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that. There go a little bit
further down that road. So someone's interested
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in be to be podcasting, but
they're not currently running a show. They
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can access the content, but they're
probably not in this group right. Like,
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how are you determining who's good fit
and WHO's in? Speak a little
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more there. If you're on the
outside, you don't have a BDB podcast,
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you're not in that group yet because
you're your company's just thinking about it,
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you're considering starting a podcast. I
want to make sure the information that
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we're putting out there, the weekly
podcast, the monthly live event, is
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all accessible. You can go and
be a spectator. In fact, that's
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what we call we're calling those spectators
people who can watch the live stream,
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who can then listen to every single
episode. We gate nothing. What we
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do? I guess we get we
don't get any content. We will gate
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is the actual community aspect. If
you want to become a member, then
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you need to have a live podcast. So we're going to be asking for
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your you know, podcast website url
or even to apple podcast wherever it is,
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so I can verify that, hey, you're a BEDB company, here's
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the podcast, and then that everybody
on that kind of a basis and make
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sure it's an active podcast like you're
actually doing something pretty low buried entry like.
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It's not like I'm looking for a
certain amount of episodes, but it
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needs to have been published recently.
Those are going to be members. And
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then I'm going to have that again
the the inside circle called the ring leaders,
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who are meeting weekly. Again,
that's that's invite only, but I'll
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be looking for looking for people over
the next couple of weeks to form that.
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Okay, so let's start to wrap
up the conversation here. As far
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as reaching out, obviously you're very
active on Linkedin. I'm sure people can
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shoot you a DM, but is
there somewhere else that you want to send
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people to to get more information,
or how should we go about that?
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Go to join my clubcom. That's
the website where you're going to be able
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to find the podcast episodes, but
you're also find links to be able to
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subscribe, find the next live events
and ultimately become a member. There's going
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to be a page you can just
go to join my Clubcom, slash join,
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and you can read the criteria for
becoming a member and submiture your podcast
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for radio. Dan, it's been
fun to chat with you about this.
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Were learning a lot from your work
on the audience side and now the community
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side. So thanks for stopping by
be to be growth and it's been a
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00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:41.160
pleasure chatting absolutely thanks, beggie Hey, for our listeners love this conversation on
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community. Know that a lot of
you are thinking about that. You're reading
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00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:52.359
about it on Linkedin. So we
hope that you found today's episode insightful and
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00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:56.200
we hope it helps fuel your growth
in your innovation. Don't miss an episode.
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You can subscribe to be to be
growth on whatever podcast platform you're listening
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to this on right now. Connect
with me on Linkedin. Just Search Benjie
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00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:07.079
Block, talking about marketing, business
and life over there, and would love
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to hear from you. Keep doing
work that matters. Will be back real
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soon with another episode. Be Tob
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