Getting Started with ABM

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.340 --> 00:00:08.860 welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Dan Sanchez with Sweet Fish Media, and 2 00:00:08.860 --> 00:00:13.770 today we are continuing the deep dive into account based marketing as I as a 3 00:00:13.770 --> 00:00:16.680 new B B two b market. Er, I'm still trying to figure out how to play the 4 00:00:16.680 --> 00:00:20.300 game in the world that B two B marketing coming over from the 5 00:00:20.310 --> 00:00:24.450 nonprofit Higher Ed and B to C space. Um, there's still a lot to learn, and 6 00:00:24.450 --> 00:00:28.050 while I'm I'm certainly learning a lot about a B M, I'm looking forward to 7 00:00:28.050 --> 00:00:31.090 doing some case studies. And one of those case studies that I'm starting 8 00:00:31.090 --> 00:00:36.690 with is with Kevin John, who is the strategic programs manager at Panda Doc. 9 00:00:36.700 --> 00:00:40.080 We love panda docket, Sweet fish media. So I was looking forward to this 10 00:00:40.080 --> 00:00:45.230 interview, and what I'm really excited about in this interview is that Kevin 11 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:50.800 is recently joined the Panda Dog team to implement a B M. And what I like 12 00:00:50.800 --> 00:00:54.550 about it is he's not all the way on the other end, having done a successful A B 13 00:00:54.550 --> 00:00:59.970 M campaign yet. But sometimes there is value in hearing a story and of 14 00:00:59.970 --> 00:01:04.410 somebody who's just a few steps ahead. of you instead of like 10 miles ahead 15 00:01:04.410 --> 00:01:07.060 of you, right? It's something. It's easier and you get different insights 16 00:01:07.060 --> 00:01:11.210 and different things. Uh, struggles and opportunities when you hear about 17 00:01:11.210 --> 00:01:15.550 someone who's only, ah, few, few months or a year ahead of you. So that's why I 18 00:01:15.550 --> 00:01:20.160 was really interested in talking to Kevin and let's kick this interview off 19 00:01:20.170 --> 00:01:24.690 now. Kevin, I wanted to hear about how, like, even, how did the transition you? 20 00:01:24.690 --> 00:01:28.360 Because I know your background is in demand, Gen. And now you're heavily in 21 00:01:28.370 --> 00:01:31.960 a B m. How did that start for you? Where were you before? And then how did 22 00:01:31.960 --> 00:01:37.040 this transition happen? So I think taking a step back, you know, as you 23 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:40.850 know, with the current state of the world pre co vid demand, Gen was really 24 00:01:40.860 --> 00:01:45.400 everything was focused around inbound. You know, lots of standard M que Els 25 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:49.480 really having that type of funnel mentality from the traditional events 26 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:53.940 from the traditional inbound structures from ads. But if we actually take a 27 00:01:53.940 --> 00:01:58.010 step back and look at the marketing space is a whole long term account 28 00:01:58.010 --> 00:02:03.430 based marketing organically is really just centralized focus across the 29 00:02:03.430 --> 00:02:08.039 revenue divisions, meaning you know, marketing offices involved. You have 30 00:02:08.050 --> 00:02:11.660 demand jin involved. You have sales leadership. We also have, of course, 31 00:02:11.660 --> 00:02:16.770 the assets that are looking to build out the foundation for where can we 32 00:02:16.770 --> 00:02:22.480 focus more of our campaigns, right? I'm sure it's it's no new story for 33 00:02:22.480 --> 00:02:26.150 marketers everywhere to think and say, Wow, these leads are not getting hit. 34 00:02:26.160 --> 00:02:29.890 Why are these leads not getting hit? Why is this not happening? And this age 35 00:02:29.890 --> 00:02:33.900 old tale of a push and pull between marking and sales saying marketing, We 36 00:02:33.900 --> 00:02:37.090 got the leads here for you. Why aren't you working these leads? Well, you know, 37 00:02:37.090 --> 00:02:39.920 there's nothing good in these leads, and it's just back and forth pushing 38 00:02:39.920 --> 00:02:44.160 poll When a B M really just unites all of these fronts and creates an 39 00:02:44.160 --> 00:02:49.900 established foundation, I look at it as if demand. Jin essentially used to be 40 00:02:49.900 --> 00:02:54.450 called growth marketing or used to be called growth hacking or used to be 41 00:02:54.460 --> 00:02:58.280 called just kind of marketing, marketing, digital marketing, whatever. 42 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:01.810 It's just good marketing exactly and account based marketing in the sense 43 00:03:01.810 --> 00:03:05.370 that it's exploding now and the current space and environment that we're in, 44 00:03:05.370 --> 00:03:08.490 and I'm looking at it as it's only gonna continue to grow. Eventually, 45 00:03:08.490 --> 00:03:11.050 account based marketing is just gonna become a norm of every single 46 00:03:11.050 --> 00:03:15.320 organization. As demand continues to drive as more and more appetite is 47 00:03:15.320 --> 00:03:20.200 coming for what is a B M right? This black box of everyone knows what demand 48 00:03:20.200 --> 00:03:24.730 Gen is. Everyone knows what you know. Having targeted ads is. But when it 49 00:03:24.730 --> 00:03:29.720 comes to a B M, it's this black box of why does it work so well? And that's 50 00:03:29.720 --> 00:03:32.960 why I'm excited to be a part of this today, So thank you for the opportunity 51 00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:37.030 and thanks for having me. So when did it occur to you that maybe demand Jin 52 00:03:37.030 --> 00:03:41.290 isn't all it's cracked up to be? And that may be a B M is a more effective 53 00:03:41.300 --> 00:03:46.990 format? Was it before the conversations of Panda Doc started? Yes, it was. So 54 00:03:46.990 --> 00:03:51.110 throughout the transition from a previous organization at Home Backup. I 55 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.530 really was looking at the environment in this space, right? Looking at how 56 00:03:54.530 --> 00:03:58.450 much is marketing pivoting, if you will, That keyword that everybody's throwing 57 00:03:58.450 --> 00:04:02.620 around right now in the marking space and just really thinking about what is 58 00:04:02.620 --> 00:04:05.760 that next step that everyone's transitioning towards What is that next 59 00:04:05.760 --> 00:04:09.650 step? That now we don't have access to traditional marketing tactics that 60 00:04:09.660 --> 00:04:12.650 everybody was comfortable with? You know, what exactly is it that we can 61 00:04:12.650 --> 00:04:16.950 tie everything together? And when I looked at a B M, when I looked at all 62 00:04:16.950 --> 00:04:19.940 these other organizations that were practicing it, when I looked at the 63 00:04:19.940 --> 00:04:24.450 philosophy behind it, when I looked at the idea of it, it just made sense. And 64 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:30.170 honestly, if anyone was to ask me What is your definition of a B M? I'd say it 65 00:04:30.180 --> 00:04:34.180 is uniting all the teams and stakeholders that are part of the 66 00:04:34.180 --> 00:04:39.840 revenue from marketing operations, from revenue operations, from sales 67 00:04:39.840 --> 00:04:44.750 leadership down to marketing and demand Jin because everyone has a piece of 68 00:04:44.760 --> 00:04:49.190 insight that the other one needs in order to create this focused program. 69 00:04:49.200 --> 00:04:53.210 And I think what I love about A B M is the fact that it's spearfishing as 70 00:04:53.210 --> 00:04:56.790 opposed to just casting a net and trying hoping that, you know, we're 71 00:04:56.790 --> 00:05:01.180 gonna have X amount of leads, and we're hoping that X amount of leads convert 72 00:05:01.180 --> 00:05:06.380 from that percentage, whereas a lot of focus is already obtained from a VM to 73 00:05:06.380 --> 00:05:11.400 where we know this is Mark qualified. We know that these leads already don't 74 00:05:11.400 --> 00:05:16.200 need to go through a vetting process. And our sales team is excited about 75 00:05:16.200 --> 00:05:19.510 going after these leads because it's what they want. So that intent is 76 00:05:19.510 --> 00:05:23.260 already there. There's no need to sell it. So you were excited about a B M? 77 00:05:23.270 --> 00:05:26.960 And then were you, like, writing content about how did this become like 78 00:05:26.960 --> 00:05:29.670 your full time job is? Usually, you know, when they're hiring someone, they 79 00:05:29.670 --> 00:05:34.540 want somebody with previous experience. Were you doing it before? And then they 80 00:05:34.550 --> 00:05:37.290 saw that you were trying to do it and then brought you on. Like, how did that 81 00:05:37.290 --> 00:05:40.430 conversation go to get you on the panda Doc team? Yeah, absolutely. So 82 00:05:40.430 --> 00:05:44.550 previously, even before joining, going back up, You know, one of the things 83 00:05:44.550 --> 00:05:50.910 that I did throughout my career history was practice the concept of a B m. I 84 00:05:50.910 --> 00:05:54.790 mean, one of the age old practice is back when events were around was really 85 00:05:54.800 --> 00:06:01.170 Hey, these are top heavy prospects, very engaged. And we have an upcoming 86 00:06:01.170 --> 00:06:03.850 conference, you know? What are we going to do to get them interested? What are 87 00:06:03.850 --> 00:06:07.620 we gonna do to get them to visit our booth. So we used to sell, you know, a 88 00:06:07.620 --> 00:06:11.880 box, and we have a box that would be shipped towards the prospect, and the 89 00:06:11.880 --> 00:06:15.920 prospect would open the box thinking, Wow, what is this great item that I 90 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.950 just got And they look at it and it says, Hey, congratulations. Come visit 91 00:06:19.950 --> 00:06:24.620 us at Booth, Number X, Y and Z and pick up your prize. So the age old tactic of 92 00:06:24.620 --> 00:06:30.370 a B. M before that was really doing it from that degree. But then as marketing, 93 00:06:30.370 --> 00:06:35.070 even as demand gen throughout my career, it was really just taking little, you 94 00:06:35.070 --> 00:06:38.590 know, pieces from here and there and applying it because at the end of the 95 00:06:38.590 --> 00:06:44.390 day, the management maybe inbound. But there was really no strategic title for 96 00:06:44.390 --> 00:06:48.850 outbound marketing at that time, like there was a no account based marketing 97 00:06:48.860 --> 00:06:53.330 type role that was as defined as it is today. Whereas today everyone starting 98 00:06:53.330 --> 00:06:57.070 to build philosophies around it, their certification courses from it from 99 00:06:57.080 --> 00:07:01.460 reputable companies. And I think looking at the space itself, everyone 100 00:07:01.460 --> 00:07:05.440 has this holistic approach to it, which is just amazing. Cool. So was Panda Doc, 101 00:07:05.440 --> 00:07:08.090 one of those companies. You reached out to it. Your previous company, like, how 102 00:07:08.090 --> 00:07:13.340 did that conversation start? It was through and through, out the times. It 103 00:07:13.340 --> 00:07:17.310 was a slack channel. That was a think tank called Revenue Collective. I 104 00:07:17.310 --> 00:07:20.740 actually was posting content there for best practices that helped the 105 00:07:20.740 --> 00:07:26.440 marketing community. I really believe that there were voids throughout just 106 00:07:26.440 --> 00:07:30.110 having marketing thought leaders a place where everyone was not looking to 107 00:07:30.110 --> 00:07:33.820 pitch someone, someone that's something else but really looking to share 108 00:07:33.820 --> 00:07:40.420 insights and ideas. And I found this think tank. And once I was able to tap 109 00:07:40.420 --> 00:07:44.810 in and really share a lot of insight, strategies, best practices in these 110 00:07:44.810 --> 00:07:50.520 different channels, it really kind of caught some attention. Um, Bethany, who 111 00:07:50.520 --> 00:07:53.990 actually worked at Panda Doc reached out to me and said, Hey, we're actually 112 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:56.500 we're actually hiring right now. Would you be interested in looking at this 113 00:07:56.500 --> 00:08:00.460 job description? And you know, the rest was history from there. But I can tell 114 00:08:00.460 --> 00:08:04.140 you that all kinds of revenue leaders and people were interested on the topic 115 00:08:04.140 --> 00:08:07.930 of what is a B M. How can I get involved? How can I adopt this from my 116 00:08:07.930 --> 00:08:11.300 organization? How can you get the buy in from my organization? There was a 117 00:08:11.300 --> 00:08:16.610 lot of just this information that was kind of being requested. And I felt 118 00:08:16.610 --> 00:08:19.690 like, Hey, you know, we're all marketers were all currently in the 119 00:08:19.690 --> 00:08:23.780 same position. We're pivoting revenues tied to our names. So what can I do to 120 00:08:23.780 --> 00:08:27.630 help all of us in a holistic fashion? And that's ultimately how I found Panda 121 00:08:27.630 --> 00:08:33.000 Doc was through just sharing that community aspect of you know what and 122 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:38.030 how I could bring. I could help bring a B M to your work. Yeah, So they're the 123 00:08:38.030 --> 00:08:41.890 connection was made. They made an offer. They or invited you to come and apply. 124 00:08:41.900 --> 00:08:46.800 You changed. And now you're starting at Panda Doc, which is a successful 125 00:08:46.800 --> 00:08:49.960 company. They've been doing marketing well, and they're like, We want you 126 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:53.310 thio change the way things are happening, which that's that's a big 127 00:08:53.310 --> 00:08:57.060 task because I know it's changing the baby. M isn't like an easy task. It's 128 00:08:57.060 --> 00:09:01.180 it takes a lot of work. So what did your first month look like trying to 129 00:09:01.180 --> 00:09:04.690 jump in there? What were the first? Who were the first people you were talking 130 00:09:04.690 --> 00:09:08.430 to? What did some of the pre planning cycles look like is you got started. 131 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:11.510 You know, Dan, one of the most interesting things is and this is also 132 00:09:11.510 --> 00:09:15.260 the reason why I took on this opportunity was because Panda Dhaka's, 133 00:09:15.260 --> 00:09:18.180 you said, is really successful at marketing. They know exactly what 134 00:09:18.180 --> 00:09:21.800 they're doing, but they're top heavy when it comes to inbound. Their entire 135 00:09:21.800 --> 00:09:26.150 business was primarily inbound based driven. So the challenge itself was 136 00:09:26.160 --> 00:09:30.350 bringing in this concept in framework Oh, and outbound approach to scale it 137 00:09:30.350 --> 00:09:34.300 right to scale this thing called a B M. And obviously the company understood 138 00:09:34.300 --> 00:09:38.790 the value of it. You want to invest in it and start to bring in assets. So 139 00:09:38.800 --> 00:09:42.040 joining the company off the gecko, ultimately I just hit the ground 140 00:09:42.040 --> 00:09:46.340 running by building out. You know what is the current strategy right now? Like, 141 00:09:46.340 --> 00:09:51.430 who are the people that know r I C. P better than anybody else? And who are 142 00:09:51.430 --> 00:09:56.620 the people that are able to give some tangible data to where it's qualified 143 00:09:56.620 --> 00:10:00.560 towards sales as well? Is, is there a trend analysis that marketing 144 00:10:00.560 --> 00:10:05.760 operations concurrently share? Is there anything right now that we're noticing 145 00:10:06.040 --> 00:10:11.180 that can tangibly go into an intent database perspective because account 146 00:10:11.180 --> 00:10:16.830 based marketing, it's all about intent. It's all about what is that first layer 147 00:10:16.830 --> 00:10:20.820 of intent that you're able to drive for them to then further create this 148 00:10:20.820 --> 00:10:25.710 holistic buyers journey throughout. And for me, the first step was ultimately 149 00:10:25.710 --> 00:10:29.810 assigning and understanding who my champions were, where to stakeholders, 150 00:10:29.820 --> 00:10:35.910 and I call them the A B M Council. So I kept myself to a 30 60 90 framework. 151 00:10:35.920 --> 00:10:40.230 Ultimately, you know, looking at the calendar, First step was really 152 00:10:40.230 --> 00:10:44.600 evaluating our tech stack. What do we need? What we have This is a trap a lot 153 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:48.310 of marketers fall into is where they instantly need to get their hands on 154 00:10:48.310 --> 00:10:51.610 the technology. They instantly say I can't do a VM without having technology, 155 00:10:51.610 --> 00:10:57.000 which is have true because A B M is doable without technology. But it's not 156 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:01.920 scalable without technology. So looking at our tech stack for me once getting 157 00:11:01.920 --> 00:11:05.440 in there was key to understanding. What do I need to vet? What are the 158 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:09.650 processes and sales right now that are missing and gaps and how can I fill 159 00:11:09.650 --> 00:11:14.800 that with the technology to help fuel their sales journey And that was 160 00:11:14.800 --> 00:11:19.300 establishing, you know, revenue operations, marketing operations, 161 00:11:19.310 --> 00:11:23.790 demand, Gen. And sales leadership and making sure that we were all aligned on 162 00:11:23.790 --> 00:11:28.180 revenue, metrics and goals that we wanted to hit targets as assumed to 163 00:11:28.180 --> 00:11:32.910 what are our target accounts that we find value in that are the harpoons you 164 00:11:32.910 --> 00:11:36.560 know, the whales, the whales that we can really just go spear fishing with. 165 00:11:36.740 --> 00:11:41.140 And ultimately, it's sales excited about them, because if sales isn't 166 00:11:41.140 --> 00:11:44.980 excited about going after them, then everything else that you're doing is 167 00:11:44.980 --> 00:11:49.040 just gonna be back to square one. And the alignment was what I focused on the 168 00:11:49.040 --> 00:11:53.850 most time of is building this foundation building the structure. And 169 00:11:53.850 --> 00:11:58.250 I can't stress enough that you don't have an A B M strategy if you don't 170 00:11:58.250 --> 00:12:02.090 have internal alignment. So what I'm hearing you saying is that the 1st 30 171 00:12:02.090 --> 00:12:06.130 days you essentially set out to find your stakeholders, define what your 172 00:12:06.130 --> 00:12:09.300 current tech stack is, probably get up to date with what, what, the hex on the 173 00:12:09.300 --> 00:12:12.380 marketing plan or if the marketing plan isn't up to date like, what are we 174 00:12:12.380 --> 00:12:17.080 actually doing right and then just defining the goals, probably who were 175 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:21.060 your stakeholders exactly like how many of them were there? And who were they? 176 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:26.630 Not by name, but like what roles? Revenue operations It was marketing, 177 00:12:26.630 --> 00:12:30.970 operations, demand generation, sales, leadership and, of course, the person 178 00:12:30.970 --> 00:12:36.740 running a VM myself. So everything needed to be put into place because 179 00:12:36.750 --> 00:12:40.380 each and every single piece, if we break it down to how all of this comes 180 00:12:40.380 --> 00:12:46.120 together, if we look at sales operations, they have trends and and 181 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:50.860 data that dates as far back as possible to give you an insight and information 182 00:12:50.860 --> 00:12:54.630 for who are potential candidates might be when it comes down to creating a 183 00:12:54.630 --> 00:12:58.820 target account. When we look at our sales leadership, they have data that 184 00:12:58.830 --> 00:13:02.470 may be coming directly from the front lines as to what are they hearing? You 185 00:13:02.470 --> 00:13:06.480 know, what exactly is the trends that we're looking at? That may have value 186 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:10.400 for their interactions between prospects. And if we look at marketing 187 00:13:10.400 --> 00:13:13.720 what has been the overhead approach from marketing that marketing can now 188 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:17.770 provide in assistance to everything that sales is accomplishing on the 189 00:13:17.770 --> 00:13:22.030 front lines and revenue operations is ultimately evaluating the strategy. At 190 00:13:22.030 --> 00:13:26.210 the end of the day and making sure that a This this makes sense on a cost 191 00:13:26.220 --> 00:13:31.320 efficiency level in terms of where our CPL you know, cost per lead. Our our 192 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:38.630 allies is in good on in terms of having everything else create this foundation 193 00:13:38.640 --> 00:13:43.010 for when we can meet up on a weekly basis and just go over to data, go over 194 00:13:43.010 --> 00:13:46.730 and look at our ice caps and really talk about who do we want on this 195 00:13:46.730 --> 00:13:50.930 potential list? And that's what I mean by doing a BM Without technology at a 196 00:13:50.930 --> 00:13:54.400 start is essentially reverse engineering everything right? Looking 197 00:13:54.400 --> 00:13:58.540 at your How are you currently scoring intent? Like what does intent mean to 198 00:13:58.540 --> 00:14:02.450 panda dock right now? What does intent mean to the average organization? 199 00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:06.330 Everyone defines it differently. It could be number of clicks. It could be 200 00:14:06.330 --> 00:14:10.740 a number of downloads, Right? What do you consider high levels of intent on 201 00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:14.740 that top of funnel? And that's ultimately how I wanted to work 202 00:14:14.740 --> 00:14:19.480 backwards to really define that principle and then tie it all together 203 00:14:19.490 --> 00:14:25.650 to say, Hey, these accounts, I've scored on a lead for lead basis, and 204 00:14:25.660 --> 00:14:30.250 all of these leads are part of the buyer committee and all of these people 205 00:14:30.260 --> 00:14:34.580 on the buyer committee have shown some level of intent. So therefore, this is 206 00:14:34.590 --> 00:14:39.070 a market qualified account that's basically considered as someone that we 207 00:14:39.070 --> 00:14:43.210 can go after, which is very different from just the standard empty well check 208 00:14:43.210 --> 00:14:46.970 box. Totally different. It's totally different. I mean, that's why San 209 00:14:46.970 --> 00:14:50.100 Graham often talks about it flipping the funnel right? So you're not just 210 00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:54.580 tryingto pan for gold, hoping you get some nuggets in there. You're literally 211 00:14:54.580 --> 00:14:58.400 just shooting shooting for the exact ones you want and then working 212 00:14:58.400 --> 00:15:04.230 backwards on that's That's kind of like the big cell behind a B M, but at the 213 00:15:04.230 --> 00:15:09.320 same time, it's sometimes I don't know. I think even then I've only read one 214 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:12.680 book. I'm reading a fume or on it. It seems a little more complicated, 215 00:15:12.680 --> 00:15:17.000 probably than it needs to be. So I'd like to actually even back up a little 216 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:21.160 bit. Like what before panda Doc hired you like what were they thinking 217 00:15:21.160 --> 00:15:26.400 internally to even think Hey, like we've what we've done is good. Why did 218 00:15:26.400 --> 00:15:29.770 they wanted pushing the A B M, though? What questions were they asking? What 219 00:15:29.770 --> 00:15:33.410 pains were they feeling in orderto want to do do a total at a whole new 220 00:15:33.410 --> 00:15:38.160 approach. So this kind of adds into a layer. And I think it's a stigma 221 00:15:38.160 --> 00:15:42.410 amongst organizations that are currently diving into a B M as a whole. 222 00:15:42.420 --> 00:15:46.110 There's this idea that a B M is this static list. You know, it's a list of 223 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:50.960 just organizations that fit your I C p and pretty much one and done. Let's 224 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.460 just pull a list off of anywhere that fits our I C P right, categorized in 225 00:15:54.460 --> 00:15:58.140 any shape, way or form. And then that's it. Give it to the outbound team and 226 00:15:58.140 --> 00:16:02.430 let them run with it. Whereas A B M is an iterative process. And what I mean 227 00:16:02.430 --> 00:16:07.210 by that is what you see as the list today is consistently changing with 228 00:16:07.210 --> 00:16:12.140 data. Everything has to be data driven from a to B from beginning to end where, 229 00:16:12.150 --> 00:16:18.640 let's say, for example, if you were to go out there and say, Hey, these fit r 230 00:16:18.640 --> 00:16:22.460 I C P. But these companies never heard of you before, and you're telling sales 231 00:16:22.460 --> 00:16:26.390 to essentially just knock on their door. That's not a B M. That's just standard 232 00:16:26.400 --> 00:16:32.070 spray and pray you know type of outbound, classic approach where A B M 233 00:16:32.070 --> 00:16:34.560 is a lot more target driven to where 234 00:16:35.740 --> 00:16:39.920 this is something that we're doing right now that they're showing signals 235 00:16:39.920 --> 00:16:45.650 that they were interested in. And Panda Doc previously has fallen into that 236 00:16:45.650 --> 00:16:50.350 position of where they pulled a list that hasn't really segmented toe a 237 00:16:50.350 --> 00:16:56.450 personalized level and ultimately has been, you know, letting the reps run 238 00:16:56.450 --> 00:16:59.890 with it where outbound wasn't really what they've specialized in. And that's 239 00:16:59.890 --> 00:17:04.859 understandable coming from an organization that is heavy on inbound. 240 00:17:04.869 --> 00:17:09.680 So part of what I think a lot of organizations can learn from this is 241 00:17:09.690 --> 00:17:13.680 once you create that list, the data that you're receiving and this is where 242 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:16.690 technology is able to scale it right you have. There's a lot of vendors out 243 00:17:16.690 --> 00:17:20.050 there. There's a lot of great vendors that can provide value, but it all 244 00:17:20.050 --> 00:17:25.290 comes down to what is your strategy? Because how you segment the list is 245 00:17:25.290 --> 00:17:29.650 ultimately going to be your strategy as a whole. The first and foremost 246 00:17:29.650 --> 00:17:34.540 foundation of any A B M strategy has to be around that target account list. So 247 00:17:34.550 --> 00:17:40.280 a great example is if I said I wanted to segment the list based on just 248 00:17:40.280 --> 00:17:43.950 company size. There's not enough personalization there. There's not 249 00:17:43.950 --> 00:17:48.370 enough areas that I can really scale manually, let alone with technology. 250 00:17:48.380 --> 00:17:52.050 But if I went in depth and I really picked out some verticals that I know 251 00:17:52.050 --> 00:17:57.830 I'm great in and the buyer personas are resembled in some shape or form, you 252 00:17:57.830 --> 00:18:02.600 know, for a fact that they have similar pain points. But with technology, how 253 00:18:02.600 --> 00:18:06.360 it's able to scale is it does all that for you, right to target account 254 00:18:06.360 --> 00:18:10.050 selection to predictive in terms of telling you what that scoring is gonna 255 00:18:10.050 --> 00:18:14.440 be. You know, scoring from a market qualified account model. All that is 256 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:18.900 done through the technology piece, which is why, yes, it's true. You need 257 00:18:18.900 --> 00:18:23.100 to have a bm technology toe, have a core platform. But you don't need a B m 258 00:18:23.100 --> 00:18:28.960 technology to do it off the bat to scale it. Absolutely. To do it you can, 259 00:18:29.340 --> 00:18:32.920 Like I said, work backwards, right? Really think about what does intent 260 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:39.130 mean to you? And it s so was panda Doc in a place where they didn't they just 261 00:18:39.140 --> 00:18:42.300 feel like they weren't getting enough performance from their demand Jin or 262 00:18:42.300 --> 00:18:45.050 they're just they Maybe they're getting good performance or they're like, Yeah, 263 00:18:45.050 --> 00:18:48.000 but we know we contend exit. What is it gonna take the 10 X and their someone's 264 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.250 like account based marketing, like was where they seen a decrease in 265 00:18:51.250 --> 00:18:56.760 performance? Or did they just wanna add on top of what they were doing? Yes. So 266 00:18:56.770 --> 00:19:00.770 the attempts and prior attempts of outbound efforts haven't really taken 267 00:19:00.770 --> 00:19:04.490 off, in a sense, because of the fact that there hasn't been that sales 268 00:19:04.490 --> 00:19:08.590 alignment. Which is why, you know, having the alignment internally is key 269 00:19:08.590 --> 00:19:12.600 to having a BM strategy. But more so than that. The right target account 270 00:19:12.600 --> 00:19:17.950 list, which both of those portions were missing. And it was just this classic 271 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:22.360 outbound approach. Here's a list it resembles R I C. P. In some shape, way 272 00:19:22.360 --> 00:19:26.600 or form, they're all from different industries. Just just have sales go at 273 00:19:26.600 --> 00:19:31.540 it. There wasn't really that refined focus mentality that avian provides, 274 00:19:31.550 --> 00:19:36.410 and this is ultimately why, when I looked at this opportunity, it was able 275 00:19:36.410 --> 00:19:41.460 to build the pillars from scratch. It was able to create and coach and teach 276 00:19:41.540 --> 00:19:45.860 everyone at the organization what a B M meant as well as really a line. A lot 277 00:19:45.860 --> 00:19:50.880 of the internal processes that are and have been segmented because of it being 278 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:55.810 primarily inbound. So I looked at. This is not just a unique challenge, but a 279 00:19:55.810 --> 00:19:59.690 lot of opportunity to grow and scale both the channel as well as the 280 00:19:59.690 --> 00:20:05.090 organization as a whole. As you know, successful A B M. Very fruitful, lots 281 00:20:05.090 --> 00:20:11.040 of opportunity. But the philosophy is evangelizing when you get it when you 282 00:20:11.040 --> 00:20:14.300 get it. Everyone wants to do a B M. Everyone wants to preach a B m. They 283 00:20:14.300 --> 00:20:18.980 wanna look at what the next best thing is. And as a marketer, I totally get it. 284 00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:22.510 You chase after the new shiny object. There's new tech stacks every single 285 00:20:22.510 --> 00:20:27.170 day. But what is your strategy right now? And it is sales gonna use it? 286 00:20:27.740 --> 00:20:30.740 That's really what it comes down to, sort of hear you saying is they had 287 00:20:30.740 --> 00:20:33.860 actually taken multiple swings at it, weren't weren't connecting it like they 288 00:20:33.860 --> 00:20:37.890 wanted Thio. Hence they hired you to kind of like pull the efforts together 289 00:20:37.890 --> 00:20:41.550 in trouble. She what What was going wrong? One thing you said that was kind 290 00:20:41.550 --> 00:20:45.050 of interesting was that it's not just about pulling one static list. No needs 291 00:20:45.050 --> 00:20:49.480 to be a dynamic list. But what are you doing to make it dynamic? Are you? Are 292 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:53.200 you tying into some kind of like data vendor that's constantly updating you 293 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:56.880 on what's going on? So you can keep a dynamic list going when new people into 294 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:00.360 the market? Or like, How is that working? And this is where technology 295 00:21:00.360 --> 00:21:03.110 comes in, because you could manually do it right now off your internal 296 00:21:03.110 --> 00:21:06.000 databases, right manually if you didn't have the technology. And this is for 297 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:10.310 organizations that don't have that tech stack or currently evaluating different 298 00:21:10.310 --> 00:21:17.440 tech stacks as as I am or was currently, one of the things that you wanna look 299 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:23.560 into is what is the resemblance from that I c p all the ones that all of the 300 00:21:23.560 --> 00:21:27.960 accounts the individual accounts that are in your list right now and do you 301 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:30.880 have anything in the database that's coming in? That's that's similar to 302 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:36.410 that, because as a campaign goes live and as a target of countless begins to 303 00:21:36.410 --> 00:21:41.480 be utilized, you want to make sure that the data coming in there's a lot of 304 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:46.210 activity there's a lot of touch points, you know. Some accounts may go lost, 305 00:21:46.210 --> 00:21:50.820 some accounts may win, and the list is consistently changing. But of course, 306 00:21:50.820 --> 00:21:54.880 you don't want that list to just be a total of, let's say, 80 for example. 307 00:21:54.890 --> 00:21:58.970 And then once eighties gone, that's it. It's it hits zero you want throughout 308 00:21:58.970 --> 00:22:03.320 the process to consistently ADM or accounts that are similar to that, as 309 00:22:03.320 --> 00:22:07.510 well as continue to distribute different cadences, different messages, 310 00:22:07.510 --> 00:22:12.470 different tactics that really tap into what you're trying to convey to that 311 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:17.100 buyer. And ultimately, technology is greater doing this. Like I said, the 312 00:22:17.110 --> 00:22:21.350 technology a lot of it is, You know, when I look at a B M Tech stack, I look 313 00:22:21.350 --> 00:22:25.130 at five different things. I look at her currently current infrastructure, 314 00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:29.160 what's in place for our infrastructure? What is in place for accounts election, 315 00:22:29.170 --> 00:22:34.700 right, our reps manually building a countless right now. Are they currently 316 00:22:34.700 --> 00:22:39.470 sourcing this through Google, or how are you currently getting accounts 317 00:22:39.470 --> 00:22:45.210 right now? Then I look at enablement in terms of its sales, enabled on a lot of 318 00:22:45.210 --> 00:22:49.510 the messaging, a lot of the cadences content right, which contents relevant 319 00:22:49.510 --> 00:22:54.040 for their cadences and then, of course, engagement. What are the channels that 320 00:22:54.040 --> 00:23:00.280 are open for email for targeted ads? Whatever it is, you wanna look at the 321 00:23:00.280 --> 00:23:05.000 five components and last but not least, measurement Can revenue operations or 322 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:09.380 marketing operations take a step back and see Hey, this is the These accounts 323 00:23:09.380 --> 00:23:13.030 are showing a lot of progress, a lot of results. And this is ultimately the 324 00:23:13.030 --> 00:23:16.670 five components in the Navy M Tech stack that I look at to ultimately 325 00:23:16.670 --> 00:23:20.350 define. What are the gaps right now that I'm missing inside of this 326 00:23:20.350 --> 00:23:25.440 organization? So again, it's infrastructure, its accounts election, 327 00:23:25.550 --> 00:23:30.490 its sales enablement its engagement and then it's measurement. So how is the 328 00:23:30.490 --> 00:23:34.170 technology finding new accounts? You move through the 80 and you want 329 00:23:34.170 --> 00:23:37.700 somewhere like it. Do you go and find Pull it from an outside source? Is that 330 00:23:37.710 --> 00:23:43.940 just start running through the database using predictive? I intend to find Mawr 331 00:23:43.950 --> 00:23:48.110 leads that are essentially high intent. Like What is he doing? I think there's 332 00:23:48.110 --> 00:23:51.570 a lot of great vendors that do this currently, like from the predictive 333 00:23:51.570 --> 00:23:56.020 side and both based around your internal database scoring model. Let's 334 00:23:56.020 --> 00:24:01.120 say, for example, if you had a list of 60 accounts, and you ran it through an 335 00:24:01.120 --> 00:24:04.820 A B M platform to try to find look alikes throughout their publishers. 336 00:24:04.820 --> 00:24:09.360 Their databases. Ah, lot of what these technologies air doing is taking that 337 00:24:09.360 --> 00:24:13.310 moment before right throughout, the customers search gurney and really 338 00:24:13.310 --> 00:24:17.550 applying it to see where is that intent before they even get to your website 339 00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:20.750 right at the start of their journey, As they're looking as they're searching 340 00:24:20.750 --> 00:24:25.690 for a solution as their sourcing as they're tapping into, where can I find 341 00:24:25.690 --> 00:24:29.710 something that's currently just going to solve this pain point? That is 342 00:24:29.710 --> 00:24:33.870 really where a. B M ultimately comes in at that sweet spot, and I know a lot of 343 00:24:33.870 --> 00:24:37.950 vendors like, you know, six cents. They used the terminology called Dark Funnel. 344 00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:44.640 There's a lot of these different prospects that have been searching way 345 00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:49.460 before it turns into an m que el but with a B M. That's the only way that 346 00:24:49.460 --> 00:24:53.440 you're able to tap in to really see Hey, is this someone that showing interest? 347 00:24:53.450 --> 00:24:57.790 Is this someone that I can target right now? And this is ultimately I think 348 00:24:57.790 --> 00:25:02.180 your strategy having that solidified is ultimately gonna tell you, what should 349 00:25:02.180 --> 00:25:07.710 I go for as a first for for a tech platform, right? Having a lot of these 350 00:25:07.710 --> 00:25:12.470 technologies can be really confusing really quickly, and you want to make 351 00:25:12.470 --> 00:25:16.340 sure that it fits into the strategy, whether it's the sales strategy, 352 00:25:16.350 --> 00:25:20.560 whether it's a solution, that right now you can see it solved just a lot of 353 00:25:20.560 --> 00:25:25.280 time constraints in general, that should be prioritized based around your 354 00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:29.110 strategy. And that comes first from the internal alignment to understand where 355 00:25:29.110 --> 00:25:32.820 those gaps are. So what are you looking at next in Panda, Doc? As you're 356 00:25:32.830 --> 00:25:36.370 calculating all these things and you're looking at the next 60 to 90 days since 357 00:25:36.370 --> 00:25:40.880 your past, the 30 What's next for you guys? What's what's on your road map to 358 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:46.600 implement? So ultimately, right now, I am in the process of getting a low lift 359 00:25:46.610 --> 00:25:50.950 a pilot campaign as we're evaluating different texts and looking at 360 00:25:50.950 --> 00:25:55.930 different portions in terms of where fits into this overall strategy and 361 00:25:55.930 --> 00:26:00.180 what is the things that I think I found really interesting is segmentation as a 362 00:26:00.180 --> 00:26:03.910 whole right cadences. Once you understand who your target account list 363 00:26:03.910 --> 00:26:08.260 is, getting the personas right getting the buyers committee to be able Thio 364 00:26:08.340 --> 00:26:11.960 have different variations of those cadences. So you can a b test, um 365 00:26:12.040 --> 00:26:16.930 really tap into it to where you go. Hey, if this is the vertical we're going 366 00:26:16.930 --> 00:26:21.690 after and we vetted everything we've had marketing check to see if they're 367 00:26:21.690 --> 00:26:25.780 not a current customer. We've had marketing. See that they fit r i C p. 368 00:26:25.790 --> 00:26:29.140 Now we have sales due to deal calculations to look at average deal 369 00:26:29.140 --> 00:26:33.170 size from both the smallest value as well as the most that were ableto 370 00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:37.610 possibly accrue from this target account. What exactly is the value of 371 00:26:37.610 --> 00:26:43.300 this campaign now right to where we're able to go back and say, This is our 372 00:26:43.300 --> 00:26:47.130 buyers committee and this is our virus committee for the rest of these 373 00:26:47.130 --> 00:26:51.310 accounts? Because all of these accounts fit that vertical. They fit that 374 00:26:51.310 --> 00:26:55.270 industry, and therefore they should have similar pain points and then have 375 00:26:55.270 --> 00:27:00.520 different variations to be able to deploy those types of touch points for 376 00:27:00.520 --> 00:27:06.450 sales to then begin toe have a campaign as a as a pilot, and I think right now, 377 00:27:06.840 --> 00:27:12.030 before technology even takes its place, you really want to just look at the 378 00:27:12.030 --> 00:27:16.590 holistic view of saying this is done without technology, a lot of manual 379 00:27:16.590 --> 00:27:20.070 work is put into place. A lot of things is put into place to make sure this is 380 00:27:20.070 --> 00:27:24.310 happening. Now, what's gonna happen with technology and that's gonna give 381 00:27:24.310 --> 00:27:29.370 you a better expectation off what scaling looks like? So are you trying 382 00:27:29.370 --> 00:27:33.600 to do it manually? First to the to some degree. Okay, so is that what you're 383 00:27:33.610 --> 00:27:37.520 talking about? Testing it soon? Are you testing it out manually before you get 384 00:27:37.520 --> 00:27:41.560 the technology? Yep. Absolutely. Because, As you know, vetting 385 00:27:41.560 --> 00:27:45.570 technologies are sometimes time consuming, and sometimes it could take 386 00:27:45.570 --> 00:27:48.360 a month, you know, and then implementation could take another few 387 00:27:48.360 --> 00:27:53.310 weeks. So what you want to do, in that meantime, is to really just have 388 00:27:53.320 --> 00:27:58.820 something that has a proof of concept for data, essentially with testing it 389 00:27:58.820 --> 00:28:03.990 on a list of ice caps that, you know, you know, qualify right in terms of 390 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:08.670 exactly who these customers are. And if they fit the mold and in being able to 391 00:28:08.670 --> 00:28:12.390 have something actionable to support the outbound sales efforts while 392 00:28:12.390 --> 00:28:18.460 vetting the software providers. Awesome. Well, this has been really insightful. 393 00:28:18.840 --> 00:28:22.550 Is there anything Now that you're I mean, you're deep into it. You're 394 00:28:22.550 --> 00:28:26.190 you're have a lot to figure out. You got tests to run if somebody was 395 00:28:26.190 --> 00:28:29.830 getting started, and they're just now starting to have the conversations and 396 00:28:29.830 --> 00:28:33.250 starting to actually like, maybe we they're starting to get serious about a 397 00:28:33.250 --> 00:28:36.480 B M. Maybe they're designating a new team member. Maybe they're thinking 398 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:40.000 about hiring someone outside like you. If you could speak to yourself from, 399 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.080 like, a few months ago, knowing what you know now what advice would you give 400 00:28:44.090 --> 00:28:47.480 that person who's just getting started where you were a couple months ago? I 401 00:28:47.480 --> 00:28:54.300 think looking at it from the top down, when you put it all together the best I 402 00:28:54.300 --> 00:28:58.420 could give it in two sentences. When you have all your stakeholders and your 403 00:28:58.420 --> 00:29:03.270 champions internally bought in for a B M. That is ultimately when you should 404 00:29:03.270 --> 00:29:08.180 decide. You know what areas you're looking to scale, and if someone is 405 00:29:08.180 --> 00:29:13.070 looking to get into a B M right now, I need them to understand that forming 406 00:29:13.070 --> 00:29:17.490 that alliance, informing that committee to whatever organization they go to 407 00:29:17.500 --> 00:29:21.610 because they're excited to make an impact. D a bm council ultimately 408 00:29:21.620 --> 00:29:26.340 aligns goals, encourages open lines of communication and necessitates 409 00:29:26.340 --> 00:29:31.550 collaboration while, you know, focusing marketing, production and ensuring 410 00:29:31.550 --> 00:29:37.000 sales execution. So think of it that way that you are putting this amazing 411 00:29:37.010 --> 00:29:42.840 pillar together that ties in all of these different avenues. And ultimately, 412 00:29:42.850 --> 00:29:47.790 you're driving this, spearheading essentially this new channel to make a 413 00:29:47.790 --> 00:29:52.320 larger impact for the outbound sales team and driving and necessitating 414 00:29:52.320 --> 00:29:57.150 further internal collaboration. Thank you, Kevin, for joining me on btb 415 00:29:57.150 --> 00:30:01.080 growth. If people want have questions and want to reach out and learn more 416 00:30:01.090 --> 00:30:05.230 about what you're doing work and they find you online, you could find me on 417 00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:09.780 Lincoln. If you look up Kevin John, or if you look up Hannah docks lengthen, 418 00:30:09.790 --> 00:30:12.900 you know, would be able to see what great stuff we're doing there as well. 419 00:30:12.910 --> 00:30:16.010 Fantastic. Again. Thanks for joining me on the show today. Thanks for having me, 420 00:30:16.020 --> 00:30:20.890 Dan. If you're getting value from this podcast, you are absolutely going toe 421 00:30:20.890 --> 00:30:25.210 love our weekly newsletter and each email I share something that you can do 422 00:30:25.210 --> 00:30:29.710 toe love your team well, toe, hone your craft, the craft of marketing and to 423 00:30:29.710 --> 00:30:33.430 grow your leadership. Plus, there's a super funny video at the top of the 424 00:30:33.430 --> 00:30:36.750 landing page whenever you go to sign up for the newsletter, so go to sweet Fish. 425 00:30:36.750 --> 00:30:41.050 Media dot com slash newsletter on Sign Up Today. 426 00:30:46.940 --> 00:30:50.330 For the longest time, I was asking people to leave a review of B two B 427 00:30:50.340 --> 00:30:54.340 growth in Apple podcasts, but I realized that was kind of stupid, 428 00:30:54.350 --> 00:30:59.780 because leaving a review is way harder than just leaving a simple rating. So 429 00:30:59.780 --> 00:31:03.590 I'm changing my tune a bit. Instead of asking you to leave a review, I'm just 430 00:31:03.590 --> 00:31:07.630 gonna ask you to go to be to be growth in apple podcasts, scroll down until 431 00:31:07.630 --> 00:31:11.540 you see the ratings and review section and just tap the number of stars you 432 00:31:11.540 --> 00:31:16.240 wanna give us. No review necessary Super easy. And I promise it will help 433 00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:20.680 us out a ton. If you want a copy of my book content based networking, just 434 00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:24.370 shoot me a text. After you leave the rating on, I'll send one your way. Text 435 00:31:24.370 --> 00:31:28.350 me at 40 74903328