Digging Out the Data: A Case for Measurement as a Core Company Value

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is B two, B growth. 2 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:21.760 Welcome in to be to be growth, and today I am thrilled to 3 00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:26.800 have John Literalc with me. He is the global account executive at easy projects, 4 00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:32.399 the creators of the bird view professional services automation platform, and he's also 5 00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:37.439 the host of when spreadsheets hit the fan. And today I'm actually thrilled because 6 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:39.719 not only do we have John with us, but we're gonna feature one of 7 00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:43.079 his episodes here in a couple of minutes. John, welcome to B to 8 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:46.560 be growth. Yeah, Benji, thanks for having me. I'm excited to 9 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:50.159 be here, for sure. Congratulations on the show. I know still in 10 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:54.079 the early days, but exciting to to see this this happening and getting off 11 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:58.520 the ground. Tell us a little bit of the premise of when spreadsheets hit 12 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:00.759 the fan? I'd love to hear about it. Yeah, absolutely. I 13 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:04.359 think the title kind of gives a hint at it. It's a show for 14 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:10.239 senior operational leaders and sea level executives who, you know, do lots on 15 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:14.599 spreadsheets and, you know, do business decisions and some of the troubles and 16 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:17.159 what was they've had. And Yeah, really what we're trying to do is 17 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:22.400 collect create a community of listeners and guests around best practices around, you know, 18 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:26.480 running your business, whether that's from, you know, a human resources 19 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:30.680 point of view or from an operational point of view. You know, how 20 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:34.799 can you run your your business better, really targeting like people, like chief 21 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:40.200 operating officers, chief marketing officers. Yeah, it's been pretty exciting. And 22 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:44.439 how many episodes do you have so far? Yeah, we launched in May 23 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:48.159 and by the end of August will have about eight. It's been good. 24 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:49.519 We're trying to do about, you know, two a month right now. 25 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:55.359 Fantastic. I wonder, as you've gotten into this, John, what's your 26 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:59.040 favorite episode so far? What what stands out to you? Well, I 27 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:01.560 know it's gonna sound but they're all my favorite. But if I had to 28 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:05.760 think about one that I think would be relevant to your audience, it would 29 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:08.759 actually be the first one. It's titled Digging Out the Data Case for measurement 30 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:12.039 as a core company value. The reason why I think it would be interesting 31 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:15.919 to your audience is, uh, the gentleman Shawn Collier, is the chief 32 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:19.680 operating officer for Creative Agency, Marketing Agency, and a lot of what he 33 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:23.759 talks about is really really targeted for, you know, marketing firms. So 34 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:25.159 that's one I would pick for the show, but I love them all. 35 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:30.479 Fantastic. Well, I'm excited to get to share that episode then, right 36 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:34.000 now with our audience here on B two, b growth, and we love 37 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:37.520 getting to do these cross promotions of sorts. We get to learn from other 38 00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:40.879 shows and so for everybody listening, enjoy this one. If you want to 39 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:46.319 connect with John or myself over on Linkedin, you can do that and you 40 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:50.800 can also check out easy projects and bird view online. Be Sure to do 41 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.159 that. John, is there anyway that? What's the best way to to 42 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:57.080 check out easy projects and what bird views up to? Yeah, we have 43 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.800 a really simple Internet address. Easy projects, all one word projects within s 44 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:04.879 and then dot net, not dot com, and once you're there there's you 45 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:08.000 know, tab right to the bird view website. Fantastic. All right. 46 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:14.520 Well, let's jump into today's full conversation. Digging out of the data a 47 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:19.840 case for measurement as a core company value. Here we go. Welcome to 48 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:24.560 when spreadsheets hit the fan, a bird view podcast. This is a show 49 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:30.639 for leaders and fast growing professional service organizations looking for the latest conversations around service 50 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:37.840 delivery best practices. Let's get into the show. Welcome to when spreadsheets the 51 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:40.479 fan. I'm your host, John Lyric. In today's episode I talked to 52 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:46.479 Sean Collier. Sean is the CEO of Etna Interactive, a digital marketing company 53 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:51.680 that helps elective healthcare providers across North America attract their ideal patient audience so they 54 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:55.080 can build the practice of their dreams. With expertise and online marketing and systems 55 00:03:55.080 --> 00:04:00.919 engineering at an interactive helps both private practices in large groups expertly deployed custom online 56 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:06.840 marketing strategies. Sean turns business limitations into competitive edges for maturing companies, using 57 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:12.719 data concealed in the organization to release time and generate profits. Sean and I 58 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:16.600 are going to talk about the importance of making a data driven decision, what 59 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:21.040 happens if you don't and sort of why a lot of companies still don't make 60 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:26.199 data driven decisions. Let's jump right into it. Well, you know, 61 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:30.160 Sean, I've been really excited. You know talk to you, you know 62 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:33.920 you do something really incredible work as a creative agency, and you know you've 63 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:38.160 been doing this for a long time. You've been around the block a lot 64 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:41.759 on a lot of different companies. Uh. So, when you look out 65 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:45.120 there in the business world, you know, either in your industry or just 66 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:46.680 in business in general, with your experience, what do you think is the 67 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:50.920 biggest mistake organizations are making and they should stop? You know right away. 68 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:56.680 What's what's your pet peeve? My pet peeve? Well, the first one 69 00:04:56.680 --> 00:05:00.439 that comes to mind is probably not the question you're looking for, but people 70 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:05.399 taking zoom calls without an appropriate headset and microphone. I don't know how many 71 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:09.480 things. It can lead to a lot of things, but you know, 72 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:16.519 probably the less flippant answer to your question is what I would coin is making 73 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:23.439 decisions about the direction of a product of business a team without the underlying data 74 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:27.680 to support it. And it's something that I talked to my team about a 75 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:30.759 lot. I'm a very data centric guy. So even though the you know, 76 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:34.000 the title of your podcast is when the spreadsheets hit the fan, I 77 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:39.519 am a big fan of spreadsheets right. I use all the time and mostly 78 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:45.040 because I love that underlying data and it's important to me to use data to 79 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:49.879 make a decision and track it in its resolution and did it make an improvement 80 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:53.639 and stuff like that. But a lot of organizations don't do that. You 81 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:57.800 know, myself included, my organization included, there are times at which we 82 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:03.120 don't use the underlying data to make a better decision or arguably the right decision. 83 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:11.720 Yeah, that resonates with me and I mean I think nobody would disagree 84 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:14.800 with you that making decision based on data and in fact is important. But 85 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.560 people still do right. So can you give me an example in your experience 86 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:24.680 where you've seen someone make a business decision they didn't have the right data or 87 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:29.040 they had the wrong data, and can you quantify for anyone listening to this? 88 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:31.319 What would you know have been the impact, you know, like intangible 89 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:35.519 things like, you know, revenue, and intangible things like maybe brandon that 90 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:39.079 you know we always are listening. Honest, I only hear those kind of 91 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:43.319 war stories from you know, someone's been out there like yourself. So I've 92 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:49.240 run product teams in a number of organizations and in my court organization, which 93 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:53.959 were a digital marketing agency. We help clients, you know, across North 94 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:59.879 America, to promote their brand and drive leads into their practices. And people 95 00:06:59.879 --> 00:07:04.360 don't usually think of product in the sense of this repeatable, unitized thing, 96 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:09.879 as something creative agency is really attached to but we do, and it is 97 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:16.040 a practice that's very important because repeatability of processes, controlling pricing, being able 98 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:23.040 to ramp up resources to do this repeatable, qualified thing is really important. 99 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:28.680 However, in the product world one of the biggest challenges that you can run 100 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:32.680 into is if you build a thing, is this really what your customers want? 101 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:38.639 Can you really sell it and will they really pay for it? And 102 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:45.319 you know a number of I'll speak from from experience inside of of Atna, 103 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.680 you know, a twenty year old organization. There are times where we build 104 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:53.639 to a client need. Right, you've got some really excited salesperson I know 105 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:58.079 you work in sales, some really excited salespersons out there talking to a client 106 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:00.680 like I really want they want this thing. Know, we can do this 107 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.279 thing there. Like okay, that's cool. I like, I see where 108 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:05.759 you're going. I think the product can do these things. We can twist 109 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:07.560 it, shape it, build it, whatever the case may be, and 110 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.000 it might satisfy that one client. But if you don't do the LEGWORK, 111 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:16.720 homework to understand does that thing that you want to build, that product extension 112 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:20.879 Um the product shape? Is it scalable to other people. What is the 113 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:24.319 market for this? One of the market opportunity for it? Right. That's 114 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:30.639 something that I think, uh, product organizations fail at a lot, unfortunately, 115 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:35.639 because you know, somewhere inside the product organizations someone's got that great idea 116 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:37.919 and again, it might be a really, really good idea, but if 117 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:41.399 you can't sell it to someone who's willing to spend money for it at the 118 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:46.759 scale that it took you to recoup your initial investment to build it and, 119 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:50.279 you know, the five x that you wanted to make on that investment of 120 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:54.639 time and effort and so forth, then you've really done your business. That 121 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.399 its service by not looking at the addressable market, at the existing clients who 122 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:03.159 want that thing, find some way to test and understand the impact of this 123 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:07.120 product that you want to bring to bear. So that's that's something I see 124 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:11.639 happen a lot because people get really excited about building new stuff. Right. 125 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:15.600 It's it's fun, it's interesting to build new product. Um, it's exciting 126 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:18.519 to market new product, but if you can't sell it, if people aren't 127 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:24.080 going to buy it, then you've wasted a lot of organization time. So 128 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:28.399 it's one of the things that I've seen. Um, build a lot of 129 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:31.200 excitement and then, unfortunately, a lot of depression in the teams that build 130 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.360 that product and bring it to market and then they realize, well, it's 131 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:39.639 not selling, it's not moving, it's too complicated to sell, it's priced 132 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:41.879 wrong, it doesn't fit the real need of the market, whatever the reasons. 133 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:46.960 Maybe you know it doesn't. Instead of those product teams to develop something 134 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:50.519 new next time. Yeah, you're right. What comes to mind is the 135 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:56.039 term perpetual pioneering, right. Yeah, you're never getting into like being able 136 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:58.159 to, you know, get out of that mode. So, yeah, 137 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:01.399 that's that really resonated with me. I think, Um, you know, 138 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:05.240 a lot of our listening audience, being business leaders and senior operational practitioners, 139 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:09.600 are gonna are going to resonate with that. Right, building a product, 140 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:11.639 uh, you know, it's a gamble and you want to be making the 141 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:18.000 right gamble right decisions. So that that was great advice. Okay. So 142 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:24.639 if we stop making decisions without data, okay, then is it as simple 143 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:26.440 as saying, you know, we start making decisions with data, or do 144 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:31.080 we start doing it with a certain type of data? Yeah, I think 145 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:35.440 there's a sliding scale of some sort. There are clearly some decisions that I 146 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:37.720 don't need data for. What kind of Sandwich am I gonna need for lunch? 147 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.080 Right? You know, there are things that it would be overkilling. 148 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:48.320 Will be able to spreadsheet hold on Um, but there are things where it 149 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:52.639 can matter. Right, I'll use another story as an example. Pricing changes, 150 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:56.919 right, so Etna did, probably lots of companies around this time or 151 00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:01.200 making pricing changes. You know underlying markets and costs of delivery for goods is 152 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:03.879 changing. But when you make a pricing change out in the marketplace, that's 153 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:09.960 an important and impactful decision that you need to understand and it's hard, it 154 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:13.080 could be very hard, to make that judgment call of is this the right 155 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:16.480 one to do? Should I make this change, you know, for margin 156 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:22.200 purposes, for how it will sell in the marketplace? Doesn't allow my customers 157 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:26.519 to still buy this product that I'm still doing, doesn't change my market. 158 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:31.320 So when I make this change, how much data do I really need? 159 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:33.360 Do I need a lot, do I need little? Do I need to 160 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:37.399 analyze a ton, or do I not? And any one decision that we 161 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:41.399 make. You know, I definitely won't say you always have to have data, 162 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:45.360 but I will say that when you make that decision, you should understand 163 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:48.960 what are the what's the data that you're going to change? Am I going 164 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:54.799 to change how fast step gets done? So I need to be tracking time 165 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:58.559 on task or something like that for a process. Am I going to change 166 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:03.639 my adoption rate for product sales? Am I going to change contract timelines? 167 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:07.399 Like, what am I expecting to change with this thing and make sure I'm 168 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:11.480 measuring that so I can see the impact of my decision. So maybe if 169 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:15.519 I didn't have all the data up front, I should at least be knowing 170 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:18.399 what am I going to change with this and let's make sure I measure it 171 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:22.879 after the fact so I can know I did. I did make the right 172 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:24.919 decision, that was a good decision or, you know, it was mostly 173 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.360 right. I didn't get it right and now I need to make another pivot 174 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:33.759 of some sort. Oh yeah, and and so that heuristic constant learning, 175 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:37.399 just you're just going to be constantly improving as well, right as you as 176 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:41.679 you have that data and analyzing it as the new data come in, because 177 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:43.279 you're right, you can't get all the data sometimes up at the front right 178 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:48.080 well, and a lot of times organizations haven't been tracking that thing that you're 179 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.279 thinking you're gonna make a change to, like, Oh, we don't look 180 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:52.799 at the data that way. I don't. You know, I can make 181 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:56.919 a guess at it. I can use some other data that approximated Um this 182 00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:00.639 this elements that I'm looking at, but we haven't been trackeding it. Well, 183 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:03.000 we probably should be tracking it now because we're we are making an organizational 184 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:07.919 change to impact that thing. So we should know what the change is when 185 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:11.320 we make it. Great, Oh, that's awesome. So one of the 186 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:15.399 things that we want to do here on what spreadsheets at the fan is we 187 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:18.240 always want to challenge our guests to try and take their wisdom of what they 188 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:22.360 would stop doing and start doing and turn into a simple maxim. What would 189 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:24.799 you start? which would just stop, Dake, do you think you could 190 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:28.679 do that here? A SIMPLE MAXIM? Write something that can be applied. 191 00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:35.480 Uh, you know, spoken in short term, but applied by everyone you 192 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.639 know in their day. Right exactly. You're in the boardroom and you just, 193 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:41.919 you know, stop doing this start doing that. That's exactly right. 194 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:54.639 When looking at a decision that you need to make, can you see how 195 00:13:54.639 --> 00:14:01.080 did I say this? Can you quickly estimate the impact of your change on 196 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:09.399 your team, on your clients and on your business at large, and if 197 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:13.240 any of those get out of a you know from a small, medium large 198 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:16.559 perspective that the impact is large on any three of those things, then you 199 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:22.440 should probably stop and get more data. Okay, good, we'll see. 200 00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:28.919 Yeah, it's good and I think, Um, you know, because anyone 201 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:31.879 that's obviously just kind of, you know, listening to this while they're driving 202 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:33.200 now that that's what's gonna stick with them and resonate with them. So, 203 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:39.200 you know, that's great. Okay, let's talk about some of the theory. 204 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:43.519 Right, obviously it's so, so common sense that you should make decisions 205 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:46.320 with data and you know, we we hear this all the time, right, 206 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:52.480 data driven decisions. So why are so many organizations still not doing it? 207 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:58.919 What do you think is the reason why they're not doing it? I 208 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:01.919 want to say urgency. I think that there are a lot of organizations are 209 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:07.159 moving very quickly, right, you know, leaders and executives companies all the 210 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:11.639 way down the line to everyone who's working on any individual project. They have 211 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:16.440 to make hundreds of decisions a day and they know that if they deliberate on 212 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:18.360 one too long, it might have an impact, or maybe they just don't 213 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.279 want to deliberate on it too long. I don't want to have to think 214 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:24.360 about this because I don't understand the urgency or the or, sorry, I 215 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:26.440 don't understand the impact of it. I can make a decision and move on. 216 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:33.799 So that volume of things and the speed with which we have to move 217 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:37.039 in any given day is driving us to want to get to a decision. 218 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:41.200 We don't want to deliberate, we don't want to Dili Dally, we don't 219 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:43.519 want to hold up the client, we don't want to hold up our teams. 220 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:46.200 Whatever that impact is, we want to we want to get there, 221 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:50.440 not not from the standpoint of I'm gonna make a snap judgment. Let's hope, 222 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:54.159 let's hope not, because those are probably not good for you. They're 223 00:15:54.159 --> 00:16:00.799 more emotionally driven than logically driven. But speed adders in our businesses. It 224 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:06.679 matters for our clients and because we want to make a decision fast, we 225 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:11.519 don't necessarily want to go dig out the data, and that really probably brings 226 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.279 the other side of the coin. Is it's often harder than it should be 227 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:18.799 to pull out the data about things. So when you think about the systems 228 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:22.080 and processes that you use to keep tracking your finances, keep track of your 229 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:27.080 workflow, keep track of your contracts, you know, your client support, 230 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:30.480 whatever the case may be. You need to be able to get that data 231 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:36.720 out of those systems to ask and answer the question of this decision that you're 232 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:38.799 trying to make. So I gotta go fast, but it's hard for me 233 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:41.919 to get the data. So I'M NOT gonna go get the data, I'm 234 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.120 just going to make a decision. Oh yeah, that makes so much sense. 235 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:49.840 Uh, I would agree with you. In my experience it's urgency right. 236 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:52.720 Um, you know in the back of your head, as a business 237 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:56.519 leader, you know I should get more data on this and really think this 238 00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:00.279 through and you know, test it a b testing and all that. But 239 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.839 again, that urgency right to get things done. You know, to to 240 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:11.680 move Um, you take shortcuts. So, Um, you know. Can 241 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:15.920 you give us some examples of when you've seen someone, even yourself, who's 242 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:18.480 taking the time to slow down, you know, not a bow to the 243 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:22.240 tyranny of the urgent and has taken the time to get the data, even 244 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:26.480 if if it took a little longer than expected, and how how that made 245 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.920 a better decision. Can give an example? Yeah, definitely. Um, 246 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:36.839 we went through a process recently of selecting a new crm provider. Right. 247 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:41.480 It's a you know, new systems software to help run our business we've been 248 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:47.440 running for fifteen plus years on effectively kind of a homegrown solution, you know, 249 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:49.880 as as engineers world do, uh, as we talked about in the 250 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:55.359 pre show, like engineers will solve problems by creating software themselves often and we 251 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:57.319 did that right. We we built in, ran a system for a very 252 00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:03.039 long time and Um, we ultimately the debt that was created, the technical 253 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:08.359 debt that was created with that system is outweighed by the effort required to move 254 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:12.480 to a new system. So we get into this process of evaluating serum systems, 255 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:17.319 looking at your you know, all the litany of everyone that could be 256 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:22.559 involved in it. And I ran that part of the process and probably took 257 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:29.440 about an initial three months to do a requirements gather and look at the usual 258 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:33.720 suspects and get down to the demonstrations and start drilling into it. And I 259 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.200 could have gotten to a solution, a decision at the end of that relatively 260 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:42.319 quickly. And then my CEO Ryan through a curve at me and said, 261 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:47.559 Um, well, what other things are we do we want to solve for 262 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:53.599 in this and what else can we solve for having to do with some finance 263 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:59.640 questions right that the intersect with our CFO and maybe pause for a second and 264 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.799 go huh, yeah, I should probably take a step back and gather a 265 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:08.680 little bit more and wind up unpacking a process that our finance team uses, 266 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.680 because I was thinking very operationally, as a CEO probably should and does, 267 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:19.359 and didn't think about the finance side of this question that Ryan was asking of 268 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:26.160 me, and we wound up arriving at a whole new UH. It's a 269 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:33.240 revenue booking process that really changes the game for us and automates a ton of 270 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:38.519 steps that were very manual for my cfo, grace and her team, and 271 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:44.759 we were able to remove work that didn't need to exist or won't won't need 272 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.839 to exist when we have it deployed and give more time to the teams to 273 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:53.240 actually create value in their organization versus doing all the Colete to click and by 274 00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:56.720 the simple ask of saying, well, what more could we do with this? 275 00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:00.799 Where else should we go? A gave me. It gave me, 276 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:03.680 I guess, a little bit of latitude to say, like, I'm done 277 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:06.680 with a decision, let's move on, to say, okay, well, 278 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:08.880 I'm freed up now. You know, my boss is saying it's okay for 279 00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:15.279 me to take a minute and think further about this and uncover a section, 280 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.079 uh, that's going to create a huge benefit for a company when we roll 281 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:23.480 it out. Yeah, that's that's amazing. So it's an amazing story and 282 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:29.359 just because you took the time to do it right and and I think that 283 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:32.440 maybe the impetus there was, you know, I was challenged with the question 284 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:34.720 which had the implication behind it, like take the time to think about this 285 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:38.559 question right, so as leaders we can go to our teams and say, 286 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:41.799 I have this problem, I need you to solve this problem, and they 287 00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:45.160 might hear it as organizational dictate, like Oh, I gotta go now, 288 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.720 move a move, like no, no, no, no, I need 289 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:52.400 a solution. Here are the parameters that I'm thinking of. I need these 290 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:55.720 things solved, but I need you to take this I need you to think 291 00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:57.039 about it and come back to me with how you think you want to solve 292 00:20:57.079 --> 00:21:00.960 it. And you know the data under buying that and so on. So 293 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.720 to take the time to do it right. Um, as long as we 294 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.039 agree upon the when and I'll tell you if it's an urgent thing. This 295 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:11.799 is on fire because my client is screaming at me versus. This needs to 296 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:14.480 be done right, this needs to be done complete, this needs this has 297 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:17.440 a huge impact of the organization. I needed thought through this as a small 298 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:22.440 impact the organization. Just giving your best judgment. Okay, that's great. 299 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.960 Um, I love the stories. They're just, you know, you're showing, 300 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:30.680 like, the benefits and and the costs of not, you know, 301 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:37.480 making a proper data driven decision. I love that you have said, you 302 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:40.240 know, it's the tyranny of the urgent. I think you're you're right on 303 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:44.960 that. That just that resonates with me. That feels right. But if 304 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.680 I want to get started and I want to help my organization, whether I'm 305 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:52.559 a consultant or I'm a chief operating officer, I'm the owner of the CEO, 306 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.559 how do I get started? What step one, step two? To 307 00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.759 make my organization culture of, you know, making decisions by, you know, 308 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:03.680 having the right facts, the right data. What do I need to 309 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:08.480 do? The first one is, I think, modeling from the top. 310 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:15.920 You've gotta have leaders in the organization that believe in not making knee jerk decisions, 311 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.160 even though they might have the experience to say this is the right thing 312 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:25.519 to do, I've been through this thirty times, I can do this Um 313 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:29.200 at least to back those decisions up with. Here's the data that I know, 314 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:33.000 because I'm looking at the P and l monthly, I'm looking at the 315 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.880 incoming Um Saturation. You know, whatever those elements are that you get as 316 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.319 a leader, right, you get a lot of data kind of shoved at 317 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.359 you as a leader, hopefully Um, and you're digesting it and your understanding 318 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:48.039 it and you've wrapped your head and your fingers around that data and you can 319 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:52.880 use and expose that to team members that you're asking to solve problems for you 320 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:56.359 and say I need to solve here's some data that I think impacts that and 321 00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:59.160 I think this is and this should be part of your decision process. So 322 00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:02.559 you model it, model that behavior. The second part of that is asking 323 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:06.119 questions of them to say hey, you came up with this process change, 324 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:10.359 you came up with this decision to do x, Y Z. can you 325 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:14.000 show me how you arrived at that? Can you show me the data that 326 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:19.079 influenced your decision here and by asking for the data. It should be evidence, 327 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:22.319 like I need to see and understand, not to second guess them, 328 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:26.359 because clearly that that conversation could take a left turn there and go into a 329 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:30.200 wrong place. So I'm not trying to second guess your decision, but I'm 330 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:32.920 trying to understand how you arrived at it and what was the data that was 331 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:37.000 evidenced by that process. So the modeling and asking the questions, I think, 332 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:41.559 are key elements to help the organization get there. That the last one 333 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:48.440 that I'll offer, Um, is how you know we do this as of 334 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:52.279 one of the core values of Etna, which is make it measurable. So, 335 00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:57.960 Um, that's something that needs to be at a mission statement. You 336 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:02.440 know, company values level, and this is are always hard things to do 337 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:04.960 for a leadership and executive team. It's kind of recast the values for the 338 00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:11.720 organization. But we chose when we did this, the last time we did 339 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:15.480 this like six years ago or so, when we cast value statements, we 340 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:21.640 put data and we put measurability specifically, not just data, because uh, 341 00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:25.599 data is kind of metamorphous word, but put measurement as a core value. 342 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:29.880 And that should bring to mind and give you the opportunity to talk about how 343 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.519 are you going to measure that change? What were the measures you use to 344 00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:34.440 do this? What was your measures of success? Right, so it becomes 345 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:42.279 part of the of the vernacular. Wow, great advice and really easy to 346 00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:45.480 follow. I mean someone can fall that like tomorrow right. They can get 347 00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:49.759 started on that tomorrow right. Model the behavior, start asking questions that elicit 348 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:56.279 the person that's making the decision to show that they've gotten. They've gotten the 349 00:24:56.359 --> 00:25:00.319 data and, you know, put it into your core values, it right 350 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:06.039 into your your your guidelines for your company. Really easy to implement. Um, 351 00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:08.440 let's talk about, though, as easy it is to implement. We 352 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:14.279 know things go wrong, right, something always happens, Murphy's law. So 353 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:18.599 tell me where you've seen someone try to do this and they had some kind 354 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:23.079 of resistance and how did they overcome that challenge, that obstacle to making their 355 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:30.000 organization more data driven? Yeah, it's, Um, my head kind of 356 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.160 split in two directions. They are thinking about two ways things could go wrong. 357 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:38.200 One is that you create an opportunity for a decision paralysis and that I 358 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:44.160 haven't collected enough data. I'm struggling to go get the data I'm scrubbing from 359 00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:48.039 multiple systems to compile things down. So there's and this is very common when 360 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:51.240 you have a lot of legacy systems right. For Your Company has been around 361 00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:55.640 for twenty years, guaranteed you've got some legacy systems right, and pulling the 362 00:25:55.720 --> 00:26:00.279 data out of those systems and mashing it up together can be hard, Um, 363 00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:03.880 and people will spend a lot. Can't a lot, meaning more than 364 00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:06.640 probably should be for the level of decision right. A small, medium, 365 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:11.599 large impact again and people will kind of get wound around the axle of saying 366 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.519 I have this data, I'm not sure what it tells me, I don't 367 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:21.519 think it's enough, I don't think I'm prepared to make this decision, or 368 00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:23.039 I can't even get at the thing I'm trying to approximate. You know, 369 00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:26.960 there's a fun story about this one. So in the digital marketing, marketing 370 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:32.160 space, things change all the time. Google is when it's changing its rules 371 00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:36.519 for how it does it's search engine rankings. Right, so when you get 372 00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:40.279 the actual search results up on a page, it's using all kinds of algorithms 373 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:44.200 and the logic and obviously, as agency we want to get our clients at 374 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:47.480 the top of the page for the keywords and phrases and locations that they really 375 00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:51.880 care about. And so there was a change that Google made last year called 376 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:59.119 the UH Google Web Cor vitals update, which is basically Google saying speed matters. 377 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:00.920 Make things fast all the time. And they came out with three primary 378 00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.400 measurements of how they study fast on a website. And so we responded with, 379 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:11.759 oh well, we need to refactor how our clients websites that we build 380 00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:18.000 reflect on those three measures of performance that Google will use to then influence the 381 00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:21.440 search in ranking, so our clients pages will be faster on those three metrics 382 00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:26.000 and appear higher in the search engine results. And then we did it. 383 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:27.599 We rolled it out, we rolled it across a whole bunch of clients and 384 00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:33.559 it's done good things. It is absolutely measurably better performance on the site. 385 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:37.079 But Google didn't do exactly what they said they would go in to do, 386 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:45.000 and the results of what is it Um measurably better for our clients sites and 387 00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:49.839 the consumers that are going to them. Yes, does that change the behavior 388 00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:56.000 of the ranking on the search engine results page? I don't know, and 389 00:27:56.039 --> 00:28:00.240 that's the problem I get stuck in. My teams gets stuck in analyzing the 390 00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:06.519 impact of this very sizeable, very effort, high effort, heavy change, 391 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:08.920 and I can't give you an answer. We decided to make the change because 392 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:12.240 it made sense to make the change, but now that I've deployed it, 393 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:18.000 I can't easily say did it do, from a Google perspective, what we 394 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:22.279 wanted it to do? And so I'm stuck in this paralysis mode of not 395 00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:26.640 being able to answer as good or bad, or maybe maybe I don't want 396 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:29.839 to say it's bad because we spent so much effort at it and and so 397 00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:33.319 that's something that teams can get stuck on and get wound around the actual delivering 398 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.160 data day to day to data before they can make the decision and say it's 399 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:38.920 okay to lose, it's okay to get it wrong, it's okay to let 400 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:44.680 the data not be there, because ultimately you have to set a boundary for 401 00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:47.519 your decision. When are we going to say this easy to get done and 402 00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:49.480 here's where we're gonna go, or at least how far are we going to 403 00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:56.799 go before we have more data and and complete this decision set? Yeah, 404 00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:00.240 that's that's awesome. Uh, you don't want to out to the tyranny of 405 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:03.880 the urgency, like what urgent, what you said at the start, but 406 00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:07.680 at the same time you don't want to shift over into the other ditch and 407 00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:11.240 have paralysis by analysis. And I think you've navigated for us kind of a 408 00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:15.759 good middle of the road, right, so that decisions you know will be 409 00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:19.720 well to the best of an organization's ability at any level. You know they'll 410 00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:23.440 start making decisions based on the right level of data that they can acquire and 411 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:27.519 understand and and it evaluated that against the impact, the impact to your team, 412 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:30.960 to your customer and to your organization. If any one of those is 413 00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.319 a this could have a big impact onto any of those three, then it's 414 00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:37.960 okay to take the time, Um, and ask for help. Right. 415 00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:42.319 I hope that everyone gets the opportunity to work in an organization as as fun 416 00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:47.079 as as my team is, because I can ask for help, even as 417 00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:49.480 a leader in the organization. If I am running into a wall, I 418 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:53.200 can grab one or more of my reports my team and say, Hey, 419 00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:56.720 look, this is what I'm seeing and I don't understand it. Can you 420 00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:00.000 help me make heads or tails at this, because I don't feel comfortable with 421 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:03.519 and forward by decision until I can understand this. And so by saying that, 422 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:07.079 by giving space to it and letting other people come help you with it, 423 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:11.440 you can often, you know, move yourself off the marker that you're 424 00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:14.839 stuck on because it is a big impact thing and you don't feel comfortable with 425 00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:22.920 making that final decision because the data is inconclusive. Excellent. I know every 426 00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:26.319 business leader out there is doing a gut check right now and asking themselves, 427 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:32.079 have I created a proper culture Um, you know, to make data driven 428 00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:36.880 decisions? Am I modeling out the behavior for everyone myself? Am I asking 429 00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:41.039 those right questions? This was high value. Sean. I Really wanna thank 430 00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:45.240 you get great stories. They really resonated with us and, uh, you 431 00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:49.599 know, thank you for joining when spreadsheets at the fan. It was great 432 00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:53.920 to be with you here, John. I really appreciate it. Projects, 433 00:30:55.119 --> 00:31:00.039 resources, finances a single source of truth for service delivery teams. Birdview P 434 00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:07.440 s a helps increase profitability by automating and optimizing the entire service delivery cycle. 435 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:11.640 To learn more, visit easy projects dot net slash bird view, Dash P 436 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:18.359 S A. You've been listening to when spreadsheets hit the fan a bird view 437 00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:23.039 podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast 438 00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:26.599 player. If you like what you've heard, please rate the show. That 439 00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:32.880 helps us to keep delivering the latest and Best Practices for professional service teams. 440 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:33.359 Until next time,