#CategoryCreation 25: Before You Start the Category Design Process, Do This w/ Joergen Aaboe

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.349 Welcome back to be the growth we are here today with. You're going to 2 00:00:08.429 --> 00:00:13.230 bow he is the VP of marketing at screen cloud and I love opening these 3 00:00:13.349 --> 00:00:17.429 interviews with a fun question. So here is my question to you. You're 4 00:00:17.469 --> 00:00:27.219 going to coke or Pepsi? ha ha ha. Well, yes, cheers 5 00:00:27.339 --> 00:00:30.859 very here's I wish. I wish those of you listening could see that we 6 00:00:31.019 --> 00:00:35.020 just we just cheers our coke zero. I know. Now quick question for 7 00:00:35.100 --> 00:00:37.850 you. Do you tap the can before you open it, or is there 8 00:00:37.890 --> 00:00:41.090 a myth or no, I'm being actually useful. I don't tap, but 9 00:00:41.170 --> 00:00:45.409 I do wipe. HMM, I go. I typically go left to right 10 00:00:45.609 --> 00:00:49.049 with my thumb across the top to make sure I get any any gunk off 11 00:00:49.210 --> 00:00:53.240 there. I'm not a tapper, though, your Prolo, I mean, 12 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:55.560 I mean when you when you do it as much as I do, I 13 00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:58.439 mean, MMM, six, seven, eight times a day, it can 14 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:02.439 get ridiculous anyway. So I'm really pumped to be talking to a fellow coke 15 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:07.549 lover here, Coke Zero specifically. So we're very aligned in that. I'm 16 00:01:07.549 --> 00:01:11.469 usually cherry coke, but but I can do coke zero two. I've tried 17 00:01:11.549 --> 00:01:18.189 Cherry Vanilla recently and it's it's a Nog, but you're going to I want 18 00:01:18.230 --> 00:01:21.780 to dive into this. We're actually going to do a few episodes with you 19 00:01:21.900 --> 00:01:23.500 because there's a lot of content that we can cover, and so we were 20 00:01:23.540 --> 00:01:29.980 talking about it prior to and this first idea we're going to dive into is 21 00:01:30.099 --> 00:01:36.209 this this idea that you have to get your story right, and you guys 22 00:01:36.250 --> 00:01:40.370 are actually going through this at screen cloud right now, and so I think 23 00:01:40.370 --> 00:01:42.569 it's going to be a really interesting conversation. But before we do, for 24 00:01:42.689 --> 00:01:47.879 those that haven't listened to another episode with with we you or they don't know 25 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:51.040 your backstory, give us just a little bit of your back store. I 26 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:53.319 don't want to hang out too long there because I want to get right into 27 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:56.400 the meat of the content, but give us a little bit of your background 28 00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:00.400 just so that people have contexts for where you're coming from. Yeah, personal 29 00:02:00.430 --> 00:02:06.030 pet peeve is when these intros become too long. I to now when I'm 30 00:02:06.109 --> 00:02:08.949 listening up podcast. So I'm going to be super brief. Born and raised 31 00:02:08.990 --> 00:02:15.469 in Norway, been in the Americor lovely American land here of opportunity for about 32 00:02:15.469 --> 00:02:19.939 twenty years. It's been fifteen of those in be to be marketing mostly. 33 00:02:20.539 --> 00:02:25.819 So I'm assassed. You know, Marketing Guy, love startups, love marketing 34 00:02:27.340 --> 00:02:31.770 and I'm about six months into my role at screen cloud. I love it. 35 00:02:32.050 --> 00:02:35.930 And before we hit record, you're going to you've mentioned you know, 36 00:02:36.129 --> 00:02:40.610 you said we have to get our story just right because the story is the 37 00:02:40.849 --> 00:02:46.080 strategy, and I couldn't, could not agree with you more. Tell us 38 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:50.199 about that. What? Why are you so passionate about the idea that the 39 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:54.120 story is the strategy? Yeah, well, I've felt it really my whole 40 00:02:54.240 --> 00:03:00.270 career because I've seen when the story is in there, how badly it actually 41 00:03:00.310 --> 00:03:06.789 goes or the lack of significant growth you'll end up having. And I've seen 42 00:03:07.150 --> 00:03:09.909 the story really working, and I'll give a ton of credit to Andy Raskin, 43 00:03:10.069 --> 00:03:13.979 who talks a lot about this stuff. Right the idea of a strategic 44 00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:16.500 narrative and the fact that the story is the strategy, and there are a 45 00:03:16.500 --> 00:03:22.659 number of CEOS he's worked with that have reached that conclusion as well. The 46 00:03:22.740 --> 00:03:25.780 reality is just that. I mean it's a cliche by now, but it 47 00:03:25.979 --> 00:03:31.930 is incredibly hard to break through. Right understatement of the year and the job 48 00:03:32.090 --> 00:03:38.090 that we have as marketers for a while was to get at tension. Right, 49 00:03:38.610 --> 00:03:40.759 it's an attention game. We all got to get attention. Great, 50 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:45.159 you know, I think the bar has been raised. I think what we 51 00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:49.960 now seek as marketers as we see connection, and the way to get connection 52 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:53.280 is to first get attention and then hold it. And I think that the 53 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:59.590 way you hold attention is by through this kind of combination of telling a compelling 54 00:03:59.629 --> 00:04:04.990 story and providing a meaningful experience, so when story and experience me you can 55 00:04:05.069 --> 00:04:11.539 effectively establish a connection with someone who otherwise would have been a stranger, and 56 00:04:11.699 --> 00:04:15.259 that's the leverage you need to Trendsac to grow, etc. That's what unlocks 57 00:04:15.459 --> 00:04:20.339 all the other things that were after as people in business. That's incredible. 58 00:04:20.540 --> 00:04:24.100 You're going to when we first started talking about this, even on our pre 59 00:04:24.220 --> 00:04:27.529 interview a few weeks ago, he said something. He said, you know, 60 00:04:27.610 --> 00:04:30.370 what they don't tell you about this, this story stuff and your category 61 00:04:30.449 --> 00:04:35.730 creation stuff, is that there's a preprocess internally that you have to go through. 62 00:04:36.050 --> 00:04:41.199 Can you elaborate on you know what that's been like for you being in 63 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:45.600 that process now? Yeah, that's an interesting one and I've felt that a 64 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:47.720 few times too, and I bet other marketers have and I don't know if 65 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:54.350 folks have put words to this, but really what happens is everybody in the 66 00:04:54.470 --> 00:04:59.910 company, not everybody you know, somebody in the company, a growing number, 67 00:04:59.949 --> 00:05:02.990 let's say, start feeling that, you know, we're just not quite 68 00:05:03.149 --> 00:05:06.939 getting there on sales, we're losing some deals and you seeing all the symptoms 69 00:05:06.980 --> 00:05:12.819 right and even internally, you know we're not quite clear. And we're lucky 70 00:05:12.819 --> 00:05:15.660 at screen cloth where that hasn't been too much of a problem. But still 71 00:05:15.939 --> 00:05:21.290 there's this this feeling that starts brewing inside companies leading up to a real positioning 72 00:05:21.329 --> 00:05:26.569 exercise that there's a need for this right. And so the first thing that 73 00:05:26.649 --> 00:05:30.490 happens is not that you sit down and just start working on the positioning right, 74 00:05:30.610 --> 00:05:33.769 that all right, let's pull out the framework, let's get everybody together. 75 00:05:34.129 --> 00:05:39.600 First, you actually have to a lot of times educate people internally about 76 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:44.120 what that even entails and what the value of that is and how it's done 77 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:46.720 differently now then, let's say five years ago. You know, when I 78 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:53.069 first started out and we were doing positioning work, it was this this unlike 79 00:05:53.310 --> 00:05:58.470 positioning framework that was out there, you know, unlike competitor x you know, 80 00:05:58.870 --> 00:06:02.389 we do this and it was really, in my opinion, a fundamentally 81 00:06:02.509 --> 00:06:08.379 wrong way to try to position and to tell a story. So I've, 82 00:06:09.420 --> 00:06:12.540 you know, I've soaked up as much game as I've been able to, 83 00:06:12.899 --> 00:06:17.569 from from Andy Raskin and later also from Christopher Lockhead, and play bigger etc. 84 00:06:17.930 --> 00:06:25.410 Around. You gotta you got to figure out how to paint a picture 85 00:06:25.569 --> 00:06:30.610 of this new game. There's new way of doing something. And when you 86 00:06:30.810 --> 00:06:34.319 starting that conversation internally, there's a lot of people, a lot of smart 87 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:39.920 people, a lot of very capable people, who don't have kind of hooks 88 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:44.160 to hang that on, you know, like it's not like they get that, 89 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:47.790 but they don't have perhaps enough context. So there's a lot of internal 90 00:06:47.829 --> 00:06:53.550 education, even at a senior level, sometimes needed, and sometimes there's even 91 00:06:53.589 --> 00:06:56.790 a debate. You know, how urgent is this? How acute is this? 92 00:06:57.629 --> 00:07:00.870 To which degree are we actually going to get into this? Are we 93 00:07:00.990 --> 00:07:03.339 going to fundamentally change the story? Are we going to hold onto something? 94 00:07:03.860 --> 00:07:08.100 How much audacity can we have? Can we come up with our own categories? 95 00:07:08.180 --> 00:07:14.860 That this range of emotion and thought and that pre process is challenging right 96 00:07:15.339 --> 00:07:18.129 and at times it's just all we got to do something about this, and 97 00:07:18.209 --> 00:07:21.129 then a couple of months ago and then you pick it back up again. 98 00:07:21.170 --> 00:07:27.009 It's not this smooth linear thing, at least not in my experience. Is 99 00:07:27.009 --> 00:07:30.720 Maybe I'm not good enough of a marketing leader, but really it takes work 100 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:35.079 before you even start it. Yeah, what has that looked like? What 101 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:41.199 does that work to look like as it relates to your relationship with the CEO? 102 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:46.389 It is I would imagine there has to be a mint by in from 103 00:07:46.750 --> 00:07:50.110 the tippity top of the organization, probably even the board, on an idea 104 00:07:50.269 --> 00:07:55.310 like this. What did you have to do to get to get that by 105 00:07:55.389 --> 00:07:58.389 in? I because I'm assuming you're fere as far into it as you are. 106 00:07:58.509 --> 00:08:01.459 You've gotten that by in. But what did that process look like? 107 00:08:01.060 --> 00:08:05.579 Or was this something that you guys work on the same page with, you 108 00:08:05.660 --> 00:08:09.860 know, from the beginning? Yeah, so, to answer the very direct 109 00:08:09.899 --> 00:08:13.529 question about what I have to do, I had to stay patient. I 110 00:08:13.730 --> 00:08:16.569 had to let that, you know, let the game come to me a 111 00:08:16.610 --> 00:08:24.089 little bit, as they say, right, because our CEO was very much 112 00:08:24.129 --> 00:08:28.959 aware of the need to tell the most compelling story and his vision for the 113 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:31.840 business. I mean it's been doing this for five years. I joined, 114 00:08:31.960 --> 00:08:35.039 you know, five months ago. So he has a real vision for the 115 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:39.879 business and there's a whole founding team. There's three founders of this company, 116 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:46.190 all very, very involved and you know, we explored the idea of category 117 00:08:46.389 --> 00:08:50.309 design in the interview process. I brought up play a bigger at sitting here 118 00:08:50.389 --> 00:08:54.470 on my desk somewhere, and this this mess. You know, I brought 119 00:08:54.509 --> 00:08:58.419 up this book. He was talked about. There was some Ahas, but 120 00:08:58.500 --> 00:09:03.460 there was also some are we really ready for that? And we weren't really 121 00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:07.100 ready for that, you know, at the beginning of the year here, 122 00:09:07.700 --> 00:09:11.889 and so it was a little bit about staying patient and having faith in the 123 00:09:11.009 --> 00:09:16.289 fact that we would all inevitably come to the right conclusion at the right time, 124 00:09:18.330 --> 00:09:22.169 and that's really what has happened. You know, our CEO is incredibly 125 00:09:22.210 --> 00:09:28.080 sharp and gets this kind of stuff. He's a marketing minded CEO, comes 126 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:31.000 from an agency background. That helps a ton and you know, he now 127 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.200 says things like there's going to be winners and loosers, you know, kind 128 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:39.710 of straight out of they and you're asking framework and things like that, and 129 00:09:41.029 --> 00:09:45.710 it just took us getting to the right moment in time not pushing it to 130 00:09:46.029 --> 00:09:50.350 prematurely, although it was kind of what I wanted to come in with right 131 00:09:50.429 --> 00:09:54.100 away. Just being a little bit patient and then having the conversations right just 132 00:09:56.059 --> 00:10:01.659 slowly but surely sharing, you know. And I gotta I gotta say one 133 00:10:01.700 --> 00:10:03.779 thing about Linkedin. In this day and age, I think a lot of 134 00:10:03.899 --> 00:10:09.490 us have just experienced how valuable it is and then be able to share, 135 00:10:09.809 --> 00:10:13.769 you know, a linkedin post from from an Andy Raskin or something, to 136 00:10:13.850 --> 00:10:18.409 share directly to the CEO without too much of like a presentation or too much 137 00:10:18.450 --> 00:10:20.809 Hooplah, right, just like hey, you know, check this out, 138 00:10:20.009 --> 00:10:24.360 and just exposing people the different stuff. So, yeah, that's it. 139 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:28.320 Nothing more magical and a little bit of patients, little bit of sharing and 140 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:33.279 then eventually getting there when the time was really right. Makes Sense. And 141 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:39.070 you've mentioned Andy Raskin quite a bit already. Another thing that I wanted to 142 00:10:39.110 --> 00:10:41.870 talk to you about was, you know, what does it look like to 143 00:10:43.549 --> 00:10:46.750 bring in somebody from the outside, somebody outside your company, to come in 144 00:10:46.870 --> 00:10:52.940 and really help you run this process of, you know, nailing the story 145 00:10:52.220 --> 00:10:58.700 and category design in a in a proper way? Yeah, that's a good 146 00:10:58.700 --> 00:11:03.850 one. Back in two thousand and twelve thirteen, I was head of marketing 147 00:11:03.929 --> 00:11:09.610 at a company goal moment feed another Sass company in Santa Monica, and at 148 00:11:09.690 --> 00:11:18.799 that point our CEO decided to bring in a small consulting group out of out 149 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.919 of the bay area. It wasn't Andy R Askin, unfortunately, but I 150 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:28.399 think at that time I had, I honestly had mixed feelings about it because 151 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.919 I felt a little bit as the head of marketing, I should be able 152 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:35.629 to lead this, but in hindsight, you know, I wasn't really prepared 153 00:11:35.789 --> 00:11:39.830 to lead it at that point. So that was one of the benefits of 154 00:11:39.870 --> 00:11:43.230 actually getting some pros and to do it as like hey, these guys actually 155 00:11:43.269 --> 00:11:46.070 know what they're doing. The other thing, though, what it did was 156 00:11:46.539 --> 00:11:52.179 when you decide to write a check, that is as significant as it would 157 00:11:52.179 --> 00:11:54.820 be when you get that level of consulting into the organ innessation. And you 158 00:11:54.860 --> 00:12:01.649 were a startup and so you don't have infinite cash, right is you talked 159 00:12:01.649 --> 00:12:05.370 about buying earlier. How do you get buying? Well, when you when 160 00:12:05.409 --> 00:12:11.090 you bring somebody like that to the table, it forces you know, as 161 00:12:11.169 --> 00:12:15.529 as this concept of gravity, it just pulls everything towards it. Right and 162 00:12:15.649 --> 00:12:20.320 so immediately you have the executive team really listening and we have now skin in 163 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.440 the game as a company. It's not just some marketing person or a little 164 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:28.559 marketing team that you set starting two thousand dollars and to bring it somebody in. 165 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.990 That that's right, exactly right. When you drop yeah, when you 166 00:12:31.990 --> 00:12:35.870 drop K on that as a startup like okay, this is real and I 167 00:12:35.990 --> 00:12:41.149 think we're not doing that at screen cloud. I think it's the right thing 168 00:12:41.309 --> 00:12:45.019 for us to not do it. I think we have enough people that are 169 00:12:45.220 --> 00:12:50.500 both curious, open minded and sharp enough, quite frankly, to really tear 170 00:12:50.620 --> 00:12:54.700 into this. And we're also going through a pretty extensive process that I can 171 00:12:54.740 --> 00:13:00.409 talk about later, of really exploring what this category might be and we're really 172 00:13:00.570 --> 00:13:05.090 doing the work. So so we're okay. But yeah, it's a really 173 00:13:05.129 --> 00:13:11.529 interesting thought for folks who are standing at the doorstep of starting a process around 174 00:13:11.730 --> 00:13:16.279 is developing a strategic narrative or designing category, whatever it is. Yeah, 175 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:20.639 you might benefit quite a bit from bringing somebody in not just to do the 176 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:24.519 work but from a buying standpoint as well. I love it. My next 177 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:30.070 question you're getting you know, I know that we're both big fans of drift 178 00:13:30.230 --> 00:13:33.789 and a lot of brands that have done this in the past. What are 179 00:13:33.870 --> 00:13:37.350 some things that you've learned from folks that have done this really well? Drift 180 00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:43.139 building, the conversational marketing category, Terminus Building, the ABM category, gainsite 181 00:13:43.179 --> 00:13:48.299 building, the customer success category. I think there's so much to be learned 182 00:13:48.500 --> 00:13:52.460 from brands that have already done this. Obviously you don't, you know, 183 00:13:52.659 --> 00:13:56.889 you don't want to copy everything they've done, but what have you learned from 184 00:13:56.889 --> 00:14:01.570 from brands like that? And it's it's a little bit like, as I 185 00:14:01.690 --> 00:14:05.250 put on my drift hat, you know, that I snag while I was 186 00:14:05.330 --> 00:14:09.759 in Bos in last year. You know I'm a relatively new user of drift. 187 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:13.639 In fact I'm just figuring out how to use the damn tool myself, 188 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:18.639 trying to be the practitioner that I claim to be, but the it's a 189 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:24.870 little bit like like just being a fan and being in awe. I just 190 00:14:24.029 --> 00:14:28.029 have so much respect for really all those companies you mentioned. There was something 191 00:14:28.070 --> 00:14:33.830 in particular about drift that struck a chord with me through the seeking wisdom podcast 192 00:14:35.669 --> 00:14:39.620 where, especially in those early episodes, the first hundred plus, where you 193 00:14:39.740 --> 00:14:46.820 know the CEO especially, got to, in my opinion, really shine and 194 00:14:46.259 --> 00:14:48.700 really share value. I mean we talk so much about, you know, 195 00:14:48.860 --> 00:14:54.730 bringing value. That was just a perfect example of that. And so DC 196 00:14:56.049 --> 00:15:00.330 was just dropping value left and right and and the banter between him and dg 197 00:15:00.610 --> 00:15:03.769 was also very entertaining. So you had this like entertainment aspect, this real 198 00:15:03.929 --> 00:15:07.360 depth to it, and they were talking about marketing the way I wanted to 199 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.159 hear about marketing, and they're even talking about kind of lifestyle and life. 200 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:16.200 They're indirectly integrating into culture a little bit with that podcast to which I think 201 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.870 is an underrated aspect of it. But but what they did right was they 202 00:15:20.909 --> 00:15:28.549 said look, we're going to follow a mega consumer trend and we are going 203 00:15:28.669 --> 00:15:35.059 to effectively help revolutionize how things are done on the business side, like like 204 00:15:35.220 --> 00:15:41.700 this is big stuff, right to say the way people buy is fundamentally different 205 00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:45.500 now, and so the way people buy in a BDB setting will and should 206 00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:48.899 also be fundamentally different. That means things like no more forms and all that 207 00:15:50.049 --> 00:15:54.690 stuff. And they really started with story right. That was it was all 208 00:15:54.730 --> 00:15:58.809 about that story and all about building a brand around that and and it's paid 209 00:15:58.889 --> 00:16:03.799 off big time because we are now fans, right, we're not just somebody 210 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:08.799 who believes their product works. Were Real fans of that company and so they 211 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:15.600 have real leverage and I think they continue to deliver on that with excellent content. 212 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:21.710 And then I think that another kind of underrated aspect of drifts is they're 213 00:16:21.750 --> 00:16:26.149 probably they're probably pretty damn good at the man Jin too and selling. Yeah, 214 00:16:26.230 --> 00:16:29.629 you know, it's like you're as much as they are a brand. 215 00:16:30.070 --> 00:16:36.500 They are also well oiled machine with Kate Adams over there who I imagine it's 216 00:16:36.580 --> 00:16:40.740 just kind of crushing it on the on the demand Jin and ABM side and 217 00:16:40.899 --> 00:16:45.779 really driving business right and and sales are closing deals. So it's just it's 218 00:16:45.940 --> 00:16:48.889 it. Yeah, the too are married right. I'm sure that she would 219 00:16:48.929 --> 00:16:53.370 tell you that it would not be nearly as easy to see the success that 220 00:16:53.450 --> 00:16:56.490 they're seeing on the sales side if they didn't have the full weight of the 221 00:16:56.730 --> 00:17:00.679 brand coming at them. So I was on a cover in a conversation yesterday 222 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:06.160 where somebody was saying, James, you look at a VP of sales that 223 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:07.920 was, say, at Google, and you say, Oh, well, 224 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:12.400 they're going to work great at my little startup. Well, think about how 225 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:17.390 hard it is to cold call someone and say hey, I'm you're going from 226 00:17:17.390 --> 00:17:21.509 Google, versus Hey, I'm you're getting from a company you've never heard of. 227 00:17:21.630 --> 00:17:25.670 It's a completely different thing. You're in a completely different ballpark. So 228 00:17:25.990 --> 00:17:30.380 what I love about what drift is done is there emphasis on building brand. 229 00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:33.059 They were, it's not like they weren't selling in the early days. They 230 00:17:33.140 --> 00:17:37.299 were calling people and hearing who drift? What's a drift like? A chat 231 00:17:37.339 --> 00:17:41.059 another Chat Bot like? But as they were doing that and and getting validation, 232 00:17:41.339 --> 00:17:45.609 figuring out what works what doesn't work, they were telling this story and 233 00:17:45.970 --> 00:17:49.730 it's why I love the medium of podcasting. It gives you that nw once 234 00:17:49.809 --> 00:17:55.569 it allowed you to hear the banter. You mentioned the banter between DG and 235 00:17:55.569 --> 00:18:00.960 DC. You understand DC's thinking coming into this company. He had art, 236 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.400 he was probably doesn't need to start another company, right. I mean his 237 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:08.200 success at at hub, spot and company. I think this is his fifth 238 00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:11.799 company, so he doesn't need to start something else. But he did and 239 00:18:11.869 --> 00:18:17.630 you understood the why behind it and you understood the nuance of what's really motivating 240 00:18:17.670 --> 00:18:21.109 him to do this. And that's just not it's that's something that's really hard 241 00:18:21.150 --> 00:18:25.710 to communicate in a blog post or in a single youtube video, but because 242 00:18:25.750 --> 00:18:29.779 we got to hear that banter over multiple episodes, probably a hundred bus episodes. 243 00:18:29.819 --> 00:18:33.059 Like you said, it glued us to that story and it glued us 244 00:18:33.099 --> 00:18:37.740 to that brand because you got to hear the heart behind it, and so 245 00:18:37.539 --> 00:18:41.450 I love that you called that out because I think that's such that's a really 246 00:18:41.569 --> 00:18:45.609 special thing. There are other ways to do it. You know, terminus, 247 00:18:45.650 --> 00:18:48.809 we produced termass podcast. It's a daily podcast that Sangram hosts, and 248 00:18:49.250 --> 00:18:53.329 they would say that that podcast has played a big part, but they would 249 00:18:53.329 --> 00:18:57.960 also say that their local events, touring the country and doing these micro events 250 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:00.839 in different parts of the country, you know, gainside. I think they 251 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.839 have a podcast, but it's not a huge part of what allowed them to 252 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:07.599 build a category. There are lots of different tactics that you can do. 253 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:11.789 Drift, I think, used podcasting better than any other brand I've seen, 254 00:19:11.990 --> 00:19:15.509 honestly, to truly build their category. By the time terminus started their podcasts, 255 00:19:15.509 --> 00:19:18.069 they are already kind of built the category. But drift, I think, 256 00:19:18.190 --> 00:19:23.460 really started with the podcast and that story from from the beginning all the 257 00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:26.660 way through to, you know, now than being a household name. And 258 00:19:27.099 --> 00:19:30.299 Man what a fun journey that was to listen to. Yeah, I really 259 00:19:30.579 --> 00:19:33.220 was, and I mean there's so many good things you're pointing out about that, 260 00:19:33.460 --> 00:19:38.009 and I would add also that, you know, it's particularly impressive when 261 00:19:38.009 --> 00:19:45.089 you think about DC right, David con cell, being a technologist originally and 262 00:19:45.210 --> 00:19:48.890 being a product guy. You know, it is his fifth company, but 263 00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:55.440 then coming into that fifth company as such a marketing oriented and even a brand 264 00:19:55.519 --> 00:20:00.319 oriented guy, that must have been, you know, quite the transformation really 265 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:03.640 over the years, which I think is so awesome. The other thing too, 266 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.509 is, you know, he to me in subtle ways let us really 267 00:20:08.950 --> 00:20:15.150 believe in him as a leader, and there were little things about his personality 268 00:20:15.430 --> 00:20:18.789 coming out and little things about him, you know, growing up in Queens 269 00:20:18.910 --> 00:20:22.819 and things like that, subtle hiphop references that somebody like myself would really appreciate. 270 00:20:23.579 --> 00:20:27.619 And he showed a little bit about who he was, and now we're 271 00:20:27.619 --> 00:20:33.140 seeing he's showing even more around what's going on in the world and I think 272 00:20:33.339 --> 00:20:37.490 when it's all said and done, I actually think David concel will be considered 273 00:20:37.569 --> 00:20:41.609 one of the greatest CEOS of our era and I think that drift is kind 274 00:20:41.609 --> 00:20:47.890 of that ultimate part of his legacy. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't 275 00:20:47.890 --> 00:20:52.480 sell that to anybody and that that sucker goes public and that that that's really 276 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.920 it. You know, that's that's how you know DC, the the og, 277 00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:02.720 really solidifies his spot and last history. I love them, but, 278 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:04.710 like you said, there are others, two that are doing doing great work. 279 00:21:04.750 --> 00:21:10.269 And brand. Okay, even this has been a cliche. I can't 280 00:21:10.269 --> 00:21:15.470 believe it's been a clear become a cliche. But brand is, like, 281 00:21:15.750 --> 00:21:18.980 brand is the differentiator, right, brand is the mode. Brand is the 282 00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:23.579 thing without the demandsen and all that stuff. Yeah, you don't really have 283 00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:30.460 a business, but the differentiator is how people feel about you. We've even 284 00:21:30.500 --> 00:21:32.970 seen it in our little service business, right. I mean we're not a 285 00:21:33.170 --> 00:21:37.490 we're not a venture backed technology company that has twenty million dollars injected into our 286 00:21:37.529 --> 00:21:42.170 bank account. We're a little bootstrapped podcast agency that's been around for half a 287 00:21:42.289 --> 00:21:47.440 decade and Logan every day because of our activity on Linkedin and because of the 288 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:52.039 show that we produce every day linkedin. It seems like a Logan calls me 289 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:53.079 and he's like, man, you won't believe the Sales Calle I just had. 290 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:56.119 They jumped on the phone and they're like, oh my gosh, we're 291 00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.359 such huge fans of sweetfish. He's like what, what are you talking about? 292 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.029 Your such huge fans of sweetfish. Oh Man, we see you guys 293 00:22:03.069 --> 00:22:06.069 engaging with each other's content on Linkedin all the time. We've been listening to 294 00:22:06.109 --> 00:22:07.430 your show for two and a half years. We just love what you guys 295 00:22:07.470 --> 00:22:11.430 are doing. Who in the world gets on sales calls and gets to hear 296 00:22:11.670 --> 00:22:15.259 that coming into the called? You think that sales called going to go well? 297 00:22:15.779 --> 00:22:19.380 I'm pretty sure it's going to go well, and so hearing things like, 298 00:22:19.660 --> 00:22:22.460 oh my gosh, James, you know I've been listening to you in 299 00:22:22.579 --> 00:22:26.339 my car for three years. It's so weird actually talking to you on the 300 00:22:26.380 --> 00:22:30.329 phone. I feel like I'm talking to a celebrity. That's that's what brand 301 00:22:30.529 --> 00:22:37.450 gives you. It's this unfair advantage that takes a lot of work, that 302 00:22:37.690 --> 00:22:41.289 feels like you're doing all of this work for like, where's the result? 303 00:22:41.289 --> 00:22:44.089 Where's the result? Where's the result? And then when you start to see 304 00:22:44.089 --> 00:22:47.640 it happen, it's like it's just like a boulder coming down a mountain and 305 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:52.880 you're like, oh, that's what all the work for years building an audience, 306 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:57.160 being authentic, trying to deliver the most helpful and valuable content we possibly 307 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:03.549 can for BV Marketers. That's we're now experiencing the weight of that momentum and 308 00:23:03.990 --> 00:23:08.589 being someone that is that is experienced the fruit of brand even outside, being 309 00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:11.349 outside of the traditional kind of how you think of it. You think of 310 00:23:11.390 --> 00:23:15.299 it with tech companies. Man, it's so powerful. You're going this has 311 00:23:15.339 --> 00:23:18.740 been incredible. We're going to do another episode and it's going to go live 312 00:23:18.900 --> 00:23:25.700 tomorrow. Tomorrow's episode we're going to be talking about you guys, is category 313 00:23:25.819 --> 00:23:29.690 and diving into the process that you guys are in of. You know, 314 00:23:29.890 --> 00:23:33.970 we talked about the preprocess here, but but now the process of actually digging 315 00:23:33.009 --> 00:23:37.690 in and and doing that category design work. So I'm super pumped for that 316 00:23:37.769 --> 00:23:41.640 conversation. For those that want to stay connected with you, what's the best 317 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:45.839 way for them to stay connected with you? Linkedin is my preferred platform. 318 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.839 You'RE gonna bow funny spelling, but look it up and find me on Linkedin 319 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:53.920 and I accept most requests, except for the ones that are blatantly spamming me 320 00:23:56.430 --> 00:23:59.470 will link it up in the show description. So just check out the show 321 00:23:59.470 --> 00:24:03.390 description and if you're listening to this and and we will make sure to not 322 00:24:03.630 --> 00:24:07.950 put just don't. Don't pitch him on the you know, two seconds after 323 00:24:07.990 --> 00:24:12.339 after connecting with him, be a human. Say Ay, heard you on 324 00:24:12.380 --> 00:24:15.740 beb growth. Would love to connect and and he's awesome. I've talked to 325 00:24:15.740 --> 00:24:21.539 him multiple times now. So you're you're going to follow or connect with Yergan 326 00:24:21.940 --> 00:24:25.690 and and, as always, we love you guys so much. Thank you 327 00:24:25.769 --> 00:24:29.849 for tuning into this. We hope it has been valuable and we'll talk to 328 00:24:29.849 --> 00:24:34.890 you sooner. For the longest time I was asking people to leave a review 329 00:24:36.009 --> 00:24:40.440 of BB growth and apple podcasts, but I realize that was kind of stupid 330 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:45.599 because leaving a review is way harder than just leaving a simple rating. So 331 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:48.839 I'm changing my tune a bit. Instead of asking you to leave a review, 332 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:52.039 I'm just going to ask you to go to baby growth and apple podcasts, 333 00:24:52.359 --> 00:24:56.710 scroll down until you see the ratings and review section and just tap the 334 00:24:56.750 --> 00:25:00.589 number of stars you want to give us. No review necessary, super easy 335 00:25:00.829 --> 00:25:03.349 and I promise it will help us out a ton. If you want to 336 00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:07.500 copy on my book, content, base networking. Just shoot me a text 337 00:25:07.539 --> 00:25:10.539 after you leave the rating and I'll send them on your way. Text me 338 00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:14.420 at four hundred seven for and I know three hundred and thirty two eight