#CategoryCreation 17: What It's Like to Be a Category Designer w/ Anna Schena and Cassidy Shield

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.200 Are you trying to establish your brand as a thought leader? Start a PODCAST, 2 00:00:04.679 --> 00:00:09.750 invite industry experts to be guests on your show and watch your brand become 3 00:00:09.830 --> 00:00:15.750 the prime resource for decision makers in your industry. Learn more at sweetphish Mediacom 4 00:00:20.629 --> 00:00:25.579 you're listening to bedb growth, a daily podcast for B TOB leaders. We've 5 00:00:25.620 --> 00:00:29.219 interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary Vander truck and Simon Senek, 6 00:00:29.579 --> 00:00:33.659 but you've probably never heard from the majority of our guests. That's because the 7 00:00:33.780 --> 00:00:38.369 bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. Most of our guests 8 00:00:38.409 --> 00:00:42.770 are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're implementing strategy, they're 9 00:00:42.770 --> 00:00:47.369 experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BB companies in the world. 10 00:00:48.009 --> 00:00:50.880 My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet fish media, a 11 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:54.560 podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one of the CO hosts of 12 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:58.799 this show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, you'll hear stories 13 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:02.399 from behind the scenes of our own business. Will share the ups and downs 14 00:01:02.439 --> 00:01:06.829 of our journey as we attempt to take over the world. Just getting well, 15 00:01:07.469 --> 00:01:15.510 maybe let's get into the show. Hi there, and welcome to the 16 00:01:15.549 --> 00:01:19.060 BDB growth show. I'm John Rougie and I'm the founder of a marketing consultancy 17 00:01:19.099 --> 00:01:23.379 called flag and frontier. I host our category creation series here on the show, 18 00:01:23.379 --> 00:01:29.140 where we interview marketing and business leaders who are building in design new categories 19 00:01:29.180 --> 00:01:32.659 in their markets. Now, today's episode I'm going to be joined by Anna 20 00:01:32.739 --> 00:01:37.730 Sheina and Cassidy Shield from a company called Narrative Science. Now, Anna and 21 00:01:37.849 --> 00:01:42.370 cassidy and the rest of their team are building a new category called data storytelling. 22 00:01:42.890 --> 00:01:46.769 Now, it's really cool about this episode is that it's about an initiative 23 00:01:46.810 --> 00:01:49.400 that's happening right now. So Anna and cassidy are right in the thick of 24 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:52.799 things and if you want to hear what it's like to be in the middle 25 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:57.200 of the category design process, this is the episode to listen to and our 26 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:00.469 conversation. You'll hear US talk about why this nearly ten year old company believe 27 00:02:00.549 --> 00:02:06.109 that now was the right time for category design. You'll hear US talk about 28 00:02:06.150 --> 00:02:09.310 why it's so important to involve your entire team in the process and you'll hear 29 00:02:09.349 --> 00:02:14.550 about why sharing your vision for a new category has to be shared on both 30 00:02:14.590 --> 00:02:17.340 a logical and an emotional level. That and, of course, Anna and 31 00:02:17.659 --> 00:02:21.939 cassidy are both thoughtful people who are really fun to talk to. So that 32 00:02:22.099 --> 00:02:27.539 further ado, let's hear from Anna and cassidy from narrative science. All right, 33 00:02:27.580 --> 00:02:32.169 welcome to today's episode of the BDB Growth Show and our category creation series. 34 00:02:32.490 --> 00:02:37.650 Today is going to be a really interesting episode because we are joined by 35 00:02:37.689 --> 00:02:40.810 a couple folks who are just beginning the process of category creation. So today 36 00:02:40.969 --> 00:02:46.560 we have Anna Sheina and Cassidy Shield from from a company called Narrative Science, 37 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:50.879 who are going to walk us through what they've been up to with the category 38 00:02:51.199 --> 00:02:54.039 creation process. So, Anna and cassidy, welcome to the show. Thanks 39 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:58.000 for being with us today. Thanks for having US, John. Yeah, 40 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.030 thank you. We're excited. Yeah, yeah, you bet well. Let's 41 00:03:01.030 --> 00:03:05.629 kick things off just by hearing a little bit more about each of your backgrounds 42 00:03:05.710 --> 00:03:07.830 and a little bit more about narrative science and what you guys do there. 43 00:03:08.710 --> 00:03:14.060 Sure. So, my name is Annahina, the Director of growth marketing here 44 00:03:14.099 --> 00:03:19.020 a narrative science. Previously I did product marketing here and at a few other 45 00:03:19.180 --> 00:03:23.219 tech companies in the past. Does that work? That works, Org and 46 00:03:23.300 --> 00:03:25.340 you're about to get married, which is super cool, and you're going. 47 00:03:25.500 --> 00:03:30.930 Yeah, I got to say that too. About to get married this weekend. 48 00:03:30.129 --> 00:03:34.569 Really excited about that. So a little window into the personal life as 49 00:03:34.610 --> 00:03:38.530 well as professional good deal. How about you, Cassie? Yeah, so 50 00:03:38.610 --> 00:03:40.409 my name is cassie showed. I've been a note of science for ten months. 51 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:46.159 I run pretty much all facets, a marketing as in most small companies. 52 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:50.199 In addition to that, I also run revenue operations, which brings US 53 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.000 close to our sales team and our customer success team. So thanks for having 54 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:57.629 us, John, and we'll Miss Anna for the next month of time. 55 00:03:58.229 --> 00:04:00.949 Yes, thanks for having us. Yeah, of course. But cassie, 56 00:04:00.030 --> 00:04:02.550 that so your last name wrong. I said shield, but I thought I 57 00:04:02.629 --> 00:04:05.870 heard you say shelled. No, shield is right. Shield. Okay, 58 00:04:06.030 --> 00:04:12.099 just my accent, my southern Iowa accent, your southern Ioas and all right, 59 00:04:13.379 --> 00:04:15.620 cool, all right. So, just you know, for context for 60 00:04:15.699 --> 00:04:18.579 everyone listening, I was introduced to Anna and cassidy because a mutual friend of 61 00:04:18.620 --> 00:04:24.100 ours, Logan, told me that if you were headed down this process of 62 00:04:24.329 --> 00:04:28.889 category career and any thought that you'd be a great guest to have on the 63 00:04:28.889 --> 00:04:31.290 show. To kind of share through that process. So I'm curious to hear 64 00:04:31.529 --> 00:04:34.290 what what you guys on this road? What do you what are you looking 65 00:04:34.329 --> 00:04:39.000 for in terms of category creation and basically, why are we here today? 66 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:42.759 Yeah, so this story kind of starts with us as a company. So 67 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:48.160 narrative science was founded about nine years ago and the founders at that time believe 68 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:54.189 that the way we work, or going to work and organizations is going to 69 00:04:54.269 --> 00:04:59.829 fundamentally change and that the notion of empowering everybody with data to make better decisions 70 00:04:59.829 --> 00:05:02.750 we're going to be imperative, and so, as a founder, set out 71 00:05:02.790 --> 00:05:06.540 to build a company around that. There's a few kind of core principles and 72 00:05:06.579 --> 00:05:10.699 beliefs that we've felt, we held at that time that we still hold today, 73 00:05:10.779 --> 00:05:15.500 and that is to empower everybody. We actually believe language is the going 74 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:18.660 to be the interface to all insight and which means that, instead of US 75 00:05:18.660 --> 00:05:25.410 learning how to understand and communicate with data, data would understand how to communicate 76 00:05:25.490 --> 00:05:29.329 with us on our terms, as in words, as language or stories, 77 00:05:30.050 --> 00:05:31.689 and to do that that the machine would need to do a lot of that 78 00:05:31.850 --> 00:05:38.160 work in order to make that happen and that as humans going forward we're going 79 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:40.319 to need to be able to interact with our data. So that was kind 80 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:45.079 of the theory that born out of the company. Were at artificial intelligence. 81 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:46.920 And you know, basically what we do as a companies. We take data, 82 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:51.629 we turned that into words and language that people can understand, and we've 83 00:05:51.629 --> 00:05:58.750 been doing that successfully for the last nine years. About eighteen months ago we 84 00:05:58.910 --> 00:06:02.149 started building our next generation product and something called Lexio, and we realize what 85 00:06:02.230 --> 00:06:06.420 we're building, the problem we're solving, is a problem beyond just turning data 86 00:06:06.459 --> 00:06:11.139 into language. It was the problem that we also saw on in order to 87 00:06:11.180 --> 00:06:15.579 power everybody, that we had machines do the analysis too. And so what 88 00:06:15.699 --> 00:06:18.769 we set out in Lexio is is really a system that analyzes the data for 89 00:06:18.930 --> 00:06:21.930 you and tells you what you need to know. And as we did that, 90 00:06:21.970 --> 00:06:26.129 as we as we went down that path and that journey, we realize, 91 00:06:27.209 --> 00:06:29.610 what do we call that, or does it fit in kind of the 92 00:06:30.209 --> 00:06:34.319 lexicon of how we think about analytics and business intelligence and data analysis? We 93 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:39.240 didn't think it fit very well. So we felt that, as we build 94 00:06:39.319 --> 00:06:43.800 something that didn't exist, that was imperative for us to define the category around 95 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:45.639 it, and that's kind of what led us to where we are today. 96 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:48.990 Sure, sure, so you had a legacy product, and was that quill? 97 00:06:49.589 --> 00:06:54.069 That's correct. So quill is kind of our workhorse today the market, 98 00:06:54.230 --> 00:06:58.670 and think of that as kind of the first generation of something we call natural 99 00:06:58.750 --> 00:07:02.500 language generation, which is the technical term for taking date and turning into language. 100 00:07:02.660 --> 00:07:05.980 We kind of pioneered that space for the market leader in that space, 101 00:07:06.060 --> 00:07:10.819 the technology leader. But when we look at kind of where we're going with 102 00:07:10.939 --> 00:07:15.180 Lexio, it's natural language generation, but it's a whole lot more, and 103 00:07:15.339 --> 00:07:18.610 that's why we felt like that it was time to define a new place for 104 00:07:18.730 --> 00:07:21.769 it. Sure, okay, so this is something and you're looking at the 105 00:07:21.850 --> 00:07:27.889 product level, not necessarily the company, for the corporate brand levels at right. 106 00:07:27.889 --> 00:07:30.879 Yeah, well, kind of you have borne out of the product. 107 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:32.920 But as we took a step back and we looked at just the company and 108 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:36.079 kind of where we came from and kind of where we're going, we think 109 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:41.839 what we're doing around this definition of this category of data storytelling fit's what we 110 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:46.990 do across the entire portfolio and is all in really is really why the company 111 00:07:46.029 --> 00:07:50.269 exists. So yes, we believe Lexio is kind of the future of data 112 00:07:50.269 --> 00:07:54.790 storytelling, as we had to find it the category. We also feel like 113 00:07:55.589 --> 00:07:59.980 where we started and what we've done with quill fits into that category in its 114 00:08:00.019 --> 00:08:03.540 own way as well. Yeah, one thing I'll add. When we decided 115 00:08:03.699 --> 00:08:05.740 to go down this road, part of it was borne out of just looking 116 00:08:05.740 --> 00:08:11.660 at the product and our expanded capabilities, and then, as we will talk 117 00:08:11.660 --> 00:08:15.889 about later, actually started rolling this out across the company, we actually realized 118 00:08:16.250 --> 00:08:20.129 how much it is tied to the company and brand as well. So we'll 119 00:08:20.129 --> 00:08:26.089 talk about this later. But the category is data storytelling and we look at 120 00:08:26.129 --> 00:08:28.800 that from a technology perspective, but we're also a storytelling company from a people 121 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:33.440 perspective. So as we started to tie this category to everything we did, 122 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:39.720 everything fell into place so well that that made us more confident that we are 123 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:43.750 going down the right path. So you saw that some of the ideas you 124 00:08:43.990 --> 00:08:48.789 had looked at with this category design process for Lex you you you recognize that 125 00:08:48.190 --> 00:08:52.509 they were aspects of the penny in your culture that existed already. So you 126 00:08:52.190 --> 00:08:58.100 sound like you're in a very strong position to not only support this category at 127 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:01.580 at the product at level itself, but also just through your team and the 128 00:09:01.580 --> 00:09:05.220 way you guys do business. Yeah, I think so. I really as 129 00:09:05.299 --> 00:09:09.580 we started rolling this out and started using the same vernacular across the company, 130 00:09:09.740 --> 00:09:13.450 started taking look at all of these activities all of these amazing people here were 131 00:09:13.490 --> 00:09:18.570 already doing, it was so easy to tie it back to data storytelling, 132 00:09:18.769 --> 00:09:24.639 tie it back to the advantage of that category and then really starting to evangelize 133 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:28.720 storytelling from people as well. That, I think that's played a huge part 134 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.159 in why the company is so bought into what we're doing. It's the technology 135 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:37.639 is amazing and innovative and new and no one else is doing it, but 136 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:43.470 also the way we conduct business here is unusual. I mean it's really amazing 137 00:09:43.590 --> 00:09:48.549 to watch people here be empowered through storytelling from systems and from people. So 138 00:09:48.750 --> 00:09:52.350 we've seen it embraced a lot more quickly than I would have anticipated. Yeah, 139 00:09:52.590 --> 00:09:54.899 I would add to that that, you know, maybe this is one 140 00:09:54.940 --> 00:09:56.980 of the lessons we've kind of taken away of the process, and that is, 141 00:09:58.539 --> 00:10:01.139 as you go down this path of defining a category and how you what 142 00:10:01.259 --> 00:10:05.179 you're going to call it and how you're going to frame it, we really 143 00:10:05.220 --> 00:10:09.169 found that it's imperative that are, the rest of the company bought into that 144 00:10:09.330 --> 00:10:11.929 and it was natural for them and that they that are people, really saw 145 00:10:13.049 --> 00:10:16.529 themselves and what they do day to day as the category we're creating. So 146 00:10:18.210 --> 00:10:20.519 it in of becoming as much of canting a new category is that it was 147 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:24.720 about the way we want to position the company in the Vision we had, 148 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:28.759 you know, for what we do and for what our people do every day. 149 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:31.080 So I think that as we go forward and we say what do we 150 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:35.950 learn from this process, that was one of the the big takeaways and as 151 00:10:35.990 --> 00:10:39.190 we get into talking about how does that roll out in the marketplace, our 152 00:10:39.269 --> 00:10:41.389 people are instrumental in making that happen. Yeah, yeah, I want to 153 00:10:41.389 --> 00:10:45.870 come back to that later because I've got a couple questions on, you know, 154 00:10:45.909 --> 00:10:48.269 how you guys roll this out and or not, maybe none nuts just 155 00:10:48.309 --> 00:10:50.779 rolled it out, but work with other teams to kind of go through this 156 00:10:50.940 --> 00:10:56.700 process. But before we get there, the burning question I have is it's 157 00:10:56.740 --> 00:11:00.940 a question I ask almost every everyone I talk to you about category design, 158 00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:05.049 which is like how did you come across the concept? Because I asked, 159 00:11:05.090 --> 00:11:07.409 I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of bbssess companies, and 160 00:11:07.409 --> 00:11:09.889 a lot of times, like it's not even a term that is on their 161 00:11:09.929 --> 00:11:15.169 radar. They've never even heard of it, let alone understanding how it works 162 00:11:15.450 --> 00:11:16.570 and how you go about it. So tell me the story you've how this 163 00:11:16.690 --> 00:11:20.200 came on your radar. Well, surprise. Start with, cast be on 164 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:22.799 this wide. I came across it because of Cassody and I was tell this 165 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.360 story next for cassidy can go first. Okay, yeah, I mean I've 166 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:33.149 always been a passionate believer and positioning. So back to ours and Jack Croud 167 00:11:33.309 --> 00:11:37.190 and and so forth and so on. So I've read a lot about this. 168 00:11:37.269 --> 00:11:41.830 This is something that obviously in past marketing jobs it's critical for whether you're 169 00:11:41.830 --> 00:11:46.509 positioning a company or a product or a division, to go through that process. 170 00:11:46.629 --> 00:11:50.059 And so know, as I was coming in and narrative science, obviously 171 00:11:50.179 --> 00:11:54.419 this is on my mind. The same time I'm also reading and learning from 172 00:11:54.460 --> 00:11:58.379 others. So I think I stumbled across this by listening to Dave Gerhardt on 173 00:11:58.460 --> 00:12:01.809 a drift podcast. That led me to the book play bigger of which I 174 00:12:01.889 --> 00:12:05.049 picked up and read over a weekend and and said, listen, this is 175 00:12:05.289 --> 00:12:09.129 great, like somebody's actually put a process in place for how to make this 176 00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:15.169 happen. It's to me very close to how you would position a company and 177 00:12:15.370 --> 00:12:18.279 I brought into that and I gave it the Ann and she'll tell you what 178 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.039 happened from there. Yeah, so, so, like as he said, 179 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:24.919 he's been here around ten months. So he came in new boss. I 180 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:28.679 was product marketer at the time and he knew I like to read, like 181 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:33.429 to learn. Basically subtly gave me this book with very little explanation and I 182 00:12:33.509 --> 00:12:37.149 think was hoping that I'd come back and say we have to do this. 183 00:12:37.110 --> 00:12:41.909 Did, and then that really started, at least our formal process of how 184 00:12:41.990 --> 00:12:46.500 we started to get buy in around this process, started to think about how 185 00:12:46.539 --> 00:12:48.820 to roll it out across the company and I don't know, kind of took 186 00:12:48.820 --> 00:12:52.899 off ever since that's where we're right now. I like this the WORLS wise 187 00:12:54.460 --> 00:12:58.490 management experience on my part where I challenged on my team a book and just 188 00:12:58.610 --> 00:13:01.970 let her figure out what we do from there. Yeah, it was great 189 00:13:03.009 --> 00:13:09.090 process. He said. What's interesting about this old recent jeck track books is 190 00:13:09.169 --> 00:13:11.210 that I think one of the twenty two meetable laws is, you know, 191 00:13:11.210 --> 00:13:15.600 if you can't design a category, you can be first and and create a 192 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:18.559 new category. Sounds really good, but then they didn't really provide a lot 193 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:22.840 of context beyond that and if you read that book when it came out, 194 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:28.389 you almost had to wait a couple decades until play bigger came out and there 195 00:13:28.470 --> 00:13:31.990 was actually a real playbook for how you might go about that. So you 196 00:13:33.350 --> 00:13:37.549 guys mentioned you were the first kind of seeds in the company to have this 197 00:13:37.629 --> 00:13:41.259 idea come up, but it sounds like you've gone through a process of kind 198 00:13:41.259 --> 00:13:46.100 of getting the rest of your team on board and I assume that this is 199 00:13:46.179 --> 00:13:50.700 something that you discussed with the leadership team in the CEO and perhaps your board 200 00:13:50.700 --> 00:13:52.580 or maybe your investors. So how did that come about? What was what 201 00:13:52.659 --> 00:13:56.289 were your next steps? After you heard about the book, you read it, 202 00:13:56.370 --> 00:14:00.490 you're excited. Where did you go from there? Yeah, certainly the 203 00:14:01.049 --> 00:14:05.090 place we were, we were at and still are as a company. There's 204 00:14:05.090 --> 00:14:09.360 a lot of discussion about how we position the company and new product going forward. 205 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:13.519 So I think the mindset for change was on the you know, within 206 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:18.159 the entire executive leadership team. But as we know, like these things need 207 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.519 to start at the top and that's really where we went from a socialization perspective. 208 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:26.190 My person I work directly for as the president of the company, and 209 00:14:26.269 --> 00:14:31.070 then we have our CEO. So we really started with those two, socializing 210 00:14:31.149 --> 00:14:35.429 the concept. What is category creation? How do you do it? Why 211 00:14:35.470 --> 00:14:39.100 would we do it? So that's really, as of most cases, where 212 00:14:39.139 --> 00:14:43.419 it started. We didn't walk in and say hey, read this wonderful idea, 213 00:14:43.539 --> 00:14:46.419 we're going to create a category and everybody said, you know, you 214 00:14:46.460 --> 00:14:50.220 guys are geniuses and as brilliant, let's go do it. You know, 215 00:14:50.299 --> 00:14:56.049 it took work and patients and conversations around the why and the how before we 216 00:14:56.450 --> 00:14:58.250 really kind of committed to kicking it off, which I think would be the 217 00:14:58.330 --> 00:15:01.490 way it's going to work in any company. Yeah, I would say my 218 00:15:01.570 --> 00:15:05.049 advice to listeners if you want to do this, find a partner in it, 219 00:15:05.250 --> 00:15:09.000 like the the best part of this is cassody is on the leadership team. 220 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:13.159 I am not. So the way we were able to do this is 221 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:16.879 cassidy was able to bring it up within internal discussions in a more casual way 222 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:22.190 and then also set up meetings where we laid it out very logically about what 223 00:15:22.470 --> 00:15:26.429 category design is, why you should do it. Tied to think even things 224 00:15:26.470 --> 00:15:30.269 like financials. These companies, the investment rounds, they get the market share, 225 00:15:30.309 --> 00:15:33.149 they get what that means for us, how we roll it out. 226 00:15:33.350 --> 00:15:37.700 Every piece really had to be thought out and laid out, and so I'm 227 00:15:37.779 --> 00:15:41.860 in cassidy be part of the group that makes the decision and me able to 228 00:15:41.899 --> 00:15:46.059 come in and present the plan. Is someone separate. Created a powerful, 229 00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:52.169 tupon approach that helped people see both like the emotional and logical reason for doing 230 00:15:52.250 --> 00:15:56.250 this, and then really everyone got bought in really quickly and they really believe 231 00:15:56.289 --> 00:16:00.889 in this and they're really excited about it, which is great. I think 232 00:16:00.929 --> 00:16:04.720 we're lucky with that to have pretty innovative leaders here. And then we had 233 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:07.759 to start rolling it off to the rest of the company, which is a 234 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:11.919 different challenge in itself. Sure, I love how you mentioned Anna the but 235 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:17.320 the logical and the emotional side of things. It's so easy to focus on 236 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:19.990 the logical but you know, as marketers, we all know that people still 237 00:16:21.029 --> 00:16:25.830 tend to involve a lout of emotion in buying decisions or just getting on board 238 00:16:25.870 --> 00:16:29.350 with things like changes within the company. So I think that's really cool that 239 00:16:29.389 --> 00:16:32.509 you recognize that and made that part of the way you roll this out. 240 00:16:32.980 --> 00:16:36.539 What were some of the toughest questions you got along the way as you were 241 00:16:36.620 --> 00:16:40.860 introducing this to other people? Well, I think there's a few. One 242 00:16:41.580 --> 00:16:47.490 was around our positioning in the past. So we, as Cassody said, 243 00:16:48.330 --> 00:16:52.649 we were previously known as a natural anguige generation company. Technically we still are 244 00:16:52.330 --> 00:16:56.450 that technology. Where the leader in that, but then how that plays into 245 00:16:56.610 --> 00:17:02.279 the broader data storytelling story? So in the reality is our new product portfolio 246 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:06.000 as it expands, natural anguish generation is still a very important part of how 247 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:11.079 data storytelling works. There's a lot of other underlying pieces as well. And 248 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:14.920 then the question is just around like sounds cool, how do we do it? 249 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:19.029 And I think that was really important to have at least loosely map before 250 00:17:19.109 --> 00:17:23.910 even went to anybody, so they had faith that we had a plan to 251 00:17:25.029 --> 00:17:29.230 make it come to life across our company and then in the market as well. 252 00:17:29.750 --> 00:17:33.619 It's one thing for us to just stand on a mountain and declare we're 253 00:17:33.619 --> 00:17:37.980 data storytelling. It's another to get everybody here believing that for themselves and then 254 00:17:37.059 --> 00:17:41.259 other people in the market talking about it and wanting it with in their company. 255 00:17:41.980 --> 00:17:47.009 Now, Dad, this is where studying what how other companies have done 256 00:17:47.009 --> 00:17:52.450 this is helpful where it's helpful reading something like play bigger, where at least 257 00:17:52.450 --> 00:17:56.410 there's a blueprint that when we outline it it's just not Anna and cast these 258 00:17:56.450 --> 00:18:02.440 blueprint it's something that's been kind of tested over time with other companies. Like 259 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:07.000 one of the big things early on was we know to make this successful, 260 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:10.880 this isn't a marketing initiative, it's an initiative of the company and needs to 261 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:15.190 be led by the CEO and our CEO, stewer, with great like leaning 262 00:18:15.269 --> 00:18:18.509 in and committing that this is the path we're going to go down and since 263 00:18:18.589 --> 00:18:22.710 it's been one of our biggest evantagelists on the topic of data storytelling, both 264 00:18:22.750 --> 00:18:26.750 inside the company out. So we're fortunate to have that and that kind of 265 00:18:26.789 --> 00:18:30.059 set the tone with the rest of the leadership in the in the company. 266 00:18:30.420 --> 00:18:33.019 But going down this path. Yeah, I'm so glad you said that, 267 00:18:33.099 --> 00:18:36.859 cassidy. You answered a question I was preparing to ask you a little bit 268 00:18:36.859 --> 00:18:41.140 later on, which is whether you consider category design a market of or marketing 269 00:18:41.180 --> 00:18:45.410 initiative or not. And I think there's some misperception out there that it's like 270 00:18:45.930 --> 00:18:48.089 a brandy play or just something of the marketing team needs to run. But 271 00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:53.250 really, if you don't have a product that is developing something new that there's 272 00:18:53.289 --> 00:19:00.279 not an existing framework for, then you'll been you can't really just arbitrarily designed 273 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:03.039 a new category because it sounds cool or interesting or companies have done it. 274 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:07.000 You know you talked to about Lexia earlier. Did if I miss this, 275 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.630 for giving me, but did did Lexeyo come first and then you recognize hey, 276 00:19:11.670 --> 00:19:15.269 this is something completely new, we need to build a category in order 277 00:19:15.309 --> 00:19:17.910 for people to get what this is? Or did you say, Hey, 278 00:19:17.950 --> 00:19:22.109 we need to pursue this idea of category creation. How can we evolve the 279 00:19:22.150 --> 00:19:26.940 product roadmap to support something that would qualify as a new category? So definitely 280 00:19:26.059 --> 00:19:33.700 the former. So lexio was already being built. It had really been conceptualized 281 00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:38.529 for the past decade. So the people here, the engineers, the product 282 00:19:38.609 --> 00:19:45.210 team, have always been amazing innovators within the language space. So turning data 283 00:19:45.529 --> 00:19:51.170 into stories, into language, and having software to do that analysis and do 284 00:19:51.329 --> 00:19:56.039 that storytelling for you. So the product existed and part of at least my 285 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:02.559 light bulb in this area was when we were deciding what to call this product, 286 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:06.920 how to talk about it to people outside of here, like how do 287 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:10.150 you? How do you describe it? And at least I was having a 288 00:20:10.190 --> 00:20:15.269 really hard time describing it within the context of current software categories. Probably could 289 00:20:15.269 --> 00:20:18.869 have, but it wouldn't have done the product justice. It wouldn't have fully 290 00:20:18.950 --> 00:20:23.420 described what it does. So I found myself coveatting any category I put it 291 00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:29.940 into. And so then when everything happened later with cassidy seating, play bigger 292 00:20:30.380 --> 00:20:33.980 it really that's when the lifeball went on for me that there's a reason it 293 00:20:34.019 --> 00:20:37.930 didn't work in any other categories because it really is its own from a technology 294 00:20:38.009 --> 00:20:42.049 perspective. And then that let us down this path. Sure, sure, 295 00:20:42.250 --> 00:20:45.569 so. Have you had conversations with the people at, you know, Gtwo 296 00:20:45.650 --> 00:20:51.960 or Gartner, any of the formal category, you know, because textonomy companies, 297 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:55.200 to just, you know, discuss what it would look like to have 298 00:20:55.359 --> 00:21:00.240 this as something that's in their in their product structure? We have there are 299 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:06.789 really two routes we've taken on this. One recently with Gtwo and then also 300 00:21:06.910 --> 00:21:10.029 with Gardner. So we spent a lot of time in the past with Gardner 301 00:21:10.470 --> 00:21:17.109 and even within gardener they have the concept of data storytelling and they've held us 302 00:21:17.109 --> 00:21:21.700 up as an example of that for some time now and we use that as 303 00:21:21.740 --> 00:21:26.819 kind of one of the mechanisms and evaluating kind of what this category could be. 304 00:21:26.940 --> 00:21:30.660 So we certainly had conversations with both those like we're also pragmatic, but 305 00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:34.849 this is early on and that just because we say that we think this is 306 00:21:34.930 --> 00:21:38.890 a new category, we need proof and traction in the market in order for 307 00:21:38.970 --> 00:21:44.450 that to happen. So certainly we're having these conversations and laying the groundwork, 308 00:21:44.490 --> 00:21:48.440 but we also know realistically that these things take time. The other thing I 309 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:53.000 would add to that, and maybe this is a controversial statement, and that 310 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:59.960 is I think those are important, important kind of mechanisms for validating the category, 311 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:03.549 but I also don't think they're the the end state. And really what 312 00:22:03.670 --> 00:22:07.109 we've defined here is a belief and kind of what we think the future is 313 00:22:07.150 --> 00:22:11.230 going to be, in a vision and how to deliver on that, both 314 00:22:11.390 --> 00:22:15.470 technically with our people, and I would say categories as much about kind of 315 00:22:15.630 --> 00:22:19.619 your belief in your position of what you're doing, and the real factor is 316 00:22:19.660 --> 00:22:23.579 going to be how customers and future customers react to that. Right. So 317 00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:30.329 when we explain this to existing customers and we start seeing them use this vernacular 318 00:22:30.450 --> 00:22:33.849 and how they describe what they're doing within their company, or we see the 319 00:22:33.930 --> 00:22:38.289 showing up and requirements documents, or we go explain it to future customers and 320 00:22:38.329 --> 00:22:41.730 they told it. They just get it and they see the see the light 321 00:22:41.809 --> 00:22:45.240 bulb go on. That's when we really know we're on the something and that's 322 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.119 what's most important to us. So I think the more we do that in 323 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:52.039 the more success we see there, the G two's and the gardeners will follow. 324 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:55.480 Yeah, yeah, I'm glad that you said that. It's like you 325 00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:59.869 need to come up with a narrative that that works for you and describes where 326 00:22:59.869 --> 00:23:03.710 you're headed, and that reality exists, whether or not someone else, you 327 00:23:03.789 --> 00:23:07.910 know, puts puts a name for data storytelling in their official taxonomy. That 328 00:23:08.069 --> 00:23:11.390 that happens, that's great and that can kind of legitimize what you're doing, 329 00:23:11.509 --> 00:23:15.500 but it doesn't change the fact that you need to create a unique narrative and 330 00:23:17.180 --> 00:23:19.180 what you would define as a new category around that. Have you had a 331 00:23:19.220 --> 00:23:23.099 chance to maybe you're not far enough along yet, but have you had a 332 00:23:23.339 --> 00:23:26.730 chance to share this new category, to do narrative, with some of your 333 00:23:26.809 --> 00:23:32.289 existing customers or some potential customers? And if so, what's been the word 334 00:23:32.369 --> 00:23:37.529 reaction? And so far we have. We have so both with our existing 335 00:23:37.609 --> 00:23:41.680 customers of narrative science over the past ten years and also with our current customers 336 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:45.799 on our new product, lexio. So especially with the customers of the new 337 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:52.359 product, that is always how they've known this product and it resonates really, 338 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:56.869 really strongly for a few reasons. I think when you talk to these customers 339 00:23:57.069 --> 00:24:02.309 why they bought this new product, why they're excited, a lot of it 340 00:24:02.470 --> 00:24:07.589 comes back to just getting time back and knowledge back to be better at their 341 00:24:07.710 --> 00:24:11.059 job. So when they look at data, storytelling the advantage to them of 342 00:24:11.180 --> 00:24:15.460 having the analysis done for them and explain to them and then the impact that 343 00:24:15.819 --> 00:24:21.180 has on the jobs they have to do, whether that be we have people 344 00:24:21.380 --> 00:24:25.089 from marketing and sales operations using it, we have sales leadership using it, 345 00:24:25.650 --> 00:24:30.170 we have sea level executives using it, and they all deeply resonate with stories 346 00:24:30.210 --> 00:24:33.650 being told to them about what's going on in the business so they can get 347 00:24:33.690 --> 00:24:40.440 back to their day job and spending more time on strategy or on people or 348 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:44.920 on, I don't know, process improvement, wherever they choose to spend time 349 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.079 when their skills are best used. That's where they're seeing the advantage of the 350 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:55.349 product and I think the concept of storytelling and data storytelling really is so human 351 00:24:55.430 --> 00:24:59.910 that people identify with it really strongly. What's great about it even in our 352 00:24:59.910 --> 00:25:04.710 existing customer base for Quill is our customer success in sales team, they just 353 00:25:04.829 --> 00:25:11.140 started adopting this, this phrasing, this definition from the start because I think 354 00:25:11.140 --> 00:25:15.220 it really for them. It felt like this is this really describes what narrative 355 00:25:15.259 --> 00:25:18.940 science has been about, what we're trying to do in the solutions we provide 356 00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:22.690 today, as well as solutions we're going to provide in the future with Lexio. 357 00:25:22.809 --> 00:25:26.769 And we just had this perfect example where I will name the company, 358 00:25:26.849 --> 00:25:32.250 but it was a very large company and they had their own user events and 359 00:25:32.450 --> 00:25:37.119 the companies on stage talking about data storytelling, and when you hear that from 360 00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:40.240 the field, you know puts a smile on your face because you can feel 361 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:44.799 the momentum picking up that people really resonate with, as Anna put it very 362 00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:49.029 well, what this gives them within their company, within their teams. Yeah, 363 00:25:49.390 --> 00:25:52.390 that's great. It's great. Have you had to sounds like you got 364 00:25:52.470 --> 00:25:56.430 the category name pretty much lockdown early on. Have you had to iterate on 365 00:25:56.710 --> 00:26:02.710 underlying narrative, underlying message to support that or like? Has that process go 366 00:26:02.829 --> 00:26:06.299 on? Well, so we did debate a few names at first. So 367 00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:11.619 that was a process here that was actually interesting and fun. So this is 368 00:26:11.660 --> 00:26:15.460 very early, probably I don't know, nine months ago, something like that. 369 00:26:15.220 --> 00:26:19.849 So part of that logic process that we talked about. So after we 370 00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:25.769 got buying on this notion of category design at all, the very next meeting 371 00:26:25.849 --> 00:26:27.210 where we lay out the logic was around so what do we call it? 372 00:26:27.809 --> 00:26:32.569 And so we had a few different options, explain pros and cons of each, 373 00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:34.759 but when it came down to it, data storytelling is what the company 374 00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.599 has done for a decade and what we're going to continue to do. So 375 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:44.440 we actually have a guy on our team who's worked here for the full nine 376 00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:47.750 years. It's been on a bunch of different teams here, and he basically 377 00:26:47.990 --> 00:26:51.549 said, listen, I love it because it is it is the explanation of 378 00:26:51.670 --> 00:26:55.349 what we do. Everything we do here can tie back to that, and 379 00:26:55.509 --> 00:26:59.109 I think that made it easy and made it sticky, which is awesome. 380 00:26:59.150 --> 00:27:04.740 If I've learned anything in sitting in marketing, the stickiness of what you're trying 381 00:27:04.779 --> 00:27:10.059 to do within people, with people at the company is usually an indication if 382 00:27:10.059 --> 00:27:14.579 it's a good idea or not. If it sticks means your least around the 383 00:27:14.619 --> 00:27:17.970 right path and if you're having a hard time getting it, getting people to 384 00:27:18.089 --> 00:27:19.890 talk to what you want or getting people to use a name that you've chosen, 385 00:27:21.450 --> 00:27:22.529 maybe it might be time to go back to the drawing board. So 386 00:27:23.049 --> 00:27:27.130 once it we put it out to the company and we had a pretty specific 387 00:27:27.210 --> 00:27:30.559 way of doing that that I think resonated really well. It really took off, 388 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.519 which is great. That would I would say to your second the second 389 00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:37.559 part of your question on just the underlying narrative. Yeah, I mean to 390 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.359 be to be honest, we continue to tweak that. This wasn't something where 391 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:45.509 we just name the category data storytelling and the narrative of that, of the 392 00:27:45.549 --> 00:27:48.990 journey of data storytelling, was something we just had a week later. We 393 00:27:49.069 --> 00:27:53.109 spent a lot of time, a lot of iterations. We studied however companies 394 00:27:53.109 --> 00:27:57.269 explain kind of their narrative around the category they created. We looked at like 395 00:27:57.390 --> 00:28:03.859 a ask in and kind of his framework. Adopted that and there's many iterations, 396 00:28:03.940 --> 00:28:07.180 but a lot of these iterations happen with the same kind of core leadership. 397 00:28:07.220 --> 00:28:11.779 That was that agreed that this is the path forward. So we continue 398 00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:14.329 to do that. We feel like we've locked it in a lot better than 399 00:28:14.329 --> 00:28:17.289 we had the best but this, again, is another process where I think 400 00:28:17.289 --> 00:28:21.730 it's important lesson learn that the narrative doesn't happen overnight. It is something that 401 00:28:21.849 --> 00:28:26.529 needs to be worked at, tested internally externally, you know, in tweaked 402 00:28:26.569 --> 00:28:30.519 and modified as you go. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, Cassie, 403 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.960 so you mentioned this word like it doesn't happen overnight. I forgot to ask 404 00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:37.279 you. When did you first come across play bigger? When did you first 405 00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:41.589 Tand it to Anna? How many months ago was that? And I guess 406 00:28:41.109 --> 00:28:44.589 what I'm really getting at is like, how long have you gone through this 407 00:28:44.750 --> 00:28:49.630 category design process? I'm looking at Anna prinder. It was a pretty pretty 408 00:28:49.630 --> 00:28:53.630 quick when he joined, so I'd say January. Yeah, like nine months 409 00:28:53.630 --> 00:28:59.980 ago probably. So I think we've made really good progress internally here. I 410 00:29:00.140 --> 00:29:04.140 think we're the very start of the journey. On the market we're starting to 411 00:29:04.259 --> 00:29:08.059 see traction. We have a long way to go. So depends on how 412 00:29:08.099 --> 00:29:11.809 you look at it. In some ways it's moving quickly. In some ways 413 00:29:11.849 --> 00:29:15.289 it is a process, but we're seeing progress all the time, which is 414 00:29:15.450 --> 00:29:18.930 great. Now, did you so in play bigger heat? They talked about 415 00:29:19.049 --> 00:29:23.049 this idea of a lightning strike as one ways to bring this message at to 416 00:29:23.089 --> 00:29:29.079 market. Is that something you have done your planning to do, or did 417 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:33.559 you have look at things from a different approach? So certainly something we've looked 418 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.200 at. I mean I think the book does a really good job of outlining 419 00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:41.910 this. So I think we definitely debated here how we do that. We're 420 00:29:41.950 --> 00:29:48.109 still in the process of it. We have a few big events, big 421 00:29:48.309 --> 00:29:52.099 things are putting out that we're testing a few different options for our lightning strike 422 00:29:52.220 --> 00:29:56.339 and are I think it's called like the wheel or something afterwards. So we 423 00:29:56.420 --> 00:30:00.980 a few things lined up to really build them into each other that were really 424 00:30:02.019 --> 00:30:03.859 excited about. I don't know if you want to go into any of those 425 00:30:03.859 --> 00:30:07.210 kinds. Yeah, so this is something we, as Anna said, we 426 00:30:07.289 --> 00:30:11.809 talked quite a bit about and I think when you kind of too there's there's 427 00:30:11.849 --> 00:30:15.890 two ends of the spectrum when you think about creating a category. One is 428 00:30:15.609 --> 00:30:21.559 you're in an existing market and your product maybe, for a lack of better 429 00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:26.920 word, commoditized or there's many people like you and you've read to find a 430 00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:30.359 category around something bigger and broader. It's a great example of what drift is 431 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:34.319 done. Then you're on the other end of the spectrum where there's a the 432 00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:40.829 category and creating and the product or the capability to deliver on that category doesn't 433 00:30:40.829 --> 00:30:44.829 exist, and that's where we are. So one of the things that we've 434 00:30:45.029 --> 00:30:49.940 we've been conscious of balancing is the notion of building out a category but also 435 00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:55.700 being able to support the vision in that category in some way in the product. 436 00:30:56.299 --> 00:30:59.740 And so that what I'm getting at is that doesn't mean there's like a 437 00:30:59.859 --> 00:31:04.930 one big lightning strike. For us, a series of strikes to build momentum 438 00:31:04.970 --> 00:31:11.130 over time, because we want to bring the category along with kind of the 439 00:31:11.210 --> 00:31:14.569 ability to deliver on that in some way, if that makes any sense. 440 00:31:14.609 --> 00:31:18.289 Yeah, so you're saying you want to sell the dream, people excited about 441 00:31:18.289 --> 00:31:21.279 the vision, but you also want to make sure that the product you're delivering 442 00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:26.039 right that you're building behind that can actually deliver on that vision or at least 443 00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:29.240 indicate kind of how far you are or how close you are to that vision. 444 00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:33.990 So you're not getting too far ahead of yourselves exactly. We want to 445 00:31:33.029 --> 00:31:37.589 be conscious about the spread between the vision and the reality and we want to 446 00:31:37.630 --> 00:31:41.029 kind of manage that those expectations carefully. Yeah, I think one of the 447 00:31:41.029 --> 00:31:45.549 biggest for us, and really anyone that's trying to create a category or on 448 00:31:45.630 --> 00:31:51.420 a technology innovation, not just really like a repositioning at the company level, 449 00:31:52.180 --> 00:31:56.740 is balancing provocativeness with education. So we want to be provocative, we want 450 00:31:56.779 --> 00:32:00.299 people to look in notice but, as Cassi said, it's something that's really 451 00:32:00.339 --> 00:32:05.210 never been done. So part of what we have to do is educate people 452 00:32:05.410 --> 00:32:08.849 on the fact that this is even possible, which inherently in itself is not 453 00:32:09.009 --> 00:32:15.160 super provocative. So we have to tie educational efforts on our end with provocative 454 00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:20.720 ones and kind of create this balance over time of being sure we do both 455 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:24.599 of these things to the right people so they understand the problem or solving and 456 00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:29.680 this future we see, and then also understand what the technology can actually do 457 00:32:29.799 --> 00:32:31.910 for them, which has been a hard balance for us. Yeah, yeah, 458 00:32:31.950 --> 00:32:37.150 I've seen so. You mentioned drift a couple times. Cassidy and in 459 00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:40.190 terminus is another example of this, but both of those are companies that have, 460 00:32:40.549 --> 00:32:45.460 of course, they've painted the vision, sold the Durrenem around, you 461 00:32:45.500 --> 00:32:50.140 know, conversational marketing and a can't base marketing respectively. But then they've gone 462 00:32:50.380 --> 00:32:53.700 a little bit further and written actual books about more of the tactical side of 463 00:32:53.779 --> 00:32:58.569 what that category means, how those products work. And so to me that's 464 00:32:58.569 --> 00:33:02.289 seems like one approach for you kind of talk about the vision when you know 465 00:33:02.369 --> 00:33:06.529 in your keynote speeches and your kind of top of the phone content, but 466 00:33:06.569 --> 00:33:08.970 then when you're getting into showing people how this is a real thing, not 467 00:33:09.089 --> 00:33:15.440 just a nice idea, that that sounds interesting. There's this very like practical 468 00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:21.240 resource behind that. Have you guys looked into doing maybe a book, but 469 00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:24.559 maybe something else just along the lines of like kind of practical education around what 470 00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:30.349 what dare did is store telling actually means we have? Yes, I'll start 471 00:33:30.430 --> 00:33:35.029 this and I'll let Anna jump in. We've looked at both and and it's 472 00:33:35.029 --> 00:33:37.910 not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. We would do 473 00:33:37.069 --> 00:33:42.380 something like that, but instead of starting with the practical, we've we started 474 00:33:42.420 --> 00:33:45.740 with what we believe the impact is. So we are working on a book 475 00:33:45.140 --> 00:33:50.099 and is one of the Co authors, and what we're really explaining in that 476 00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:54.299 book is what storytelling means the humans and companies and how to empower your people. 477 00:33:54.380 --> 00:33:57.130 So I let her say a little bit more about that. But we 478 00:33:57.170 --> 00:34:00.329 felt like it's important for us to describe what we think the end state would 479 00:34:00.369 --> 00:34:04.130 look like versus the how you get there. But go ahead, Anna. 480 00:34:04.529 --> 00:34:06.730 Yeah, I mean, first of all, thanks to the question. For 481 00:34:07.049 --> 00:34:09.159 the listeners out there, this is not seated, but this is great timing 482 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:15.280 for us because actually in the very, very last pieces of a book we're 483 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.519 working on and then we were thinking about iterating on the next one. So 484 00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:24.590 our next book will be very close to what you said, so outlining all 485 00:34:24.710 --> 00:34:30.789 things data storytelling within a technology perspective. But I actually got together with Nate 486 00:34:30.869 --> 00:34:37.389 Nichols here a narrative science. He's a very long title, but basically he 487 00:34:37.829 --> 00:34:44.179 is the head of all artificial intelligence here in narrative science. He's also basically 488 00:34:44.260 --> 00:34:47.500 our chief storyteller, so he trains all people here and how to tell great 489 00:34:47.539 --> 00:34:52.050 stories. Then also is responsible for artificial intelligence within our systems, which is 490 00:34:52.130 --> 00:34:59.210 actually pretty unique skill cross. So he and I talked a lot and we 491 00:34:59.769 --> 00:35:05.409 basically decided what we're most passionate about is how to bring storytelling back into business, 492 00:35:05.489 --> 00:35:09.320 both from people and from technology. So the book we have coming out, 493 00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:15.119 hopefully ready for reading and the next month or so, is around that. 494 00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:19.199 So it's really for anybody that wants to get back to the humanity of 495 00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:23.150 business through storytelling. So whether that be learning to tell better stories or how 496 00:35:23.190 --> 00:35:28.309 to bring storytelling into business, or how do you stary telling technology to get 497 00:35:28.309 --> 00:35:31.030 back to do what you do best. So great spot for a little plug 498 00:35:31.110 --> 00:35:35.900 for up. We're pumped about it. But this the piece you were talking 499 00:35:35.900 --> 00:35:39.659 about. We're on education of data. Storytelling from a technology perspective will be 500 00:35:39.780 --> 00:35:43.940 probably like an early two thousand and twenty effort for us. All right, 501 00:35:44.179 --> 00:35:47.019 good deal. And yes, I did not put any sees out there that 502 00:35:47.059 --> 00:35:49.900 I was going to ask you about that. In fact, I was a 503 00:35:49.900 --> 00:35:52.369 little worried, as I was acting asking you some of these questions, if 504 00:35:52.409 --> 00:35:55.010 I was going to, you know, ask you to divulge top secret stuff 505 00:35:55.090 --> 00:35:59.769 you weren't ready to talk about yet. So I'm glad that you're so far 506 00:35:59.809 --> 00:36:02.530 ahead of all this and and someone's willing to share. So as you guys 507 00:36:02.570 --> 00:36:07.039 go into end of two thousand and nineteen, two thousand and twenty as you 508 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.239 and you continue to evangelize this category. How do you how do you measure 509 00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:13.639 success? How do you know if you're doing the right things? Sure, 510 00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:16.119 so this is something we talked about a lot here, narrative science as well. 511 00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:20.630 So, just like anything else, I think there's the logical and the 512 00:36:20.710 --> 00:36:24.590 emotional answer. So we take a look at all the traditional metrics, things 513 00:36:24.670 --> 00:36:30.190 like, I don't know, growth within web traffic, obviously customers, mentions 514 00:36:30.269 --> 00:36:36.699 from companies like partner reviews, Mgto, but then also something we're trying to 515 00:36:36.699 --> 00:36:39.539 figure out how to measure on the monetary or I'm sorry, in the Maracle 516 00:36:39.619 --> 00:36:44.579 Way, is just that that feeling of traction. So we talked about it 517 00:36:44.619 --> 00:36:46.610 a lot. When when you see it, start to catch it something you 518 00:36:46.730 --> 00:36:50.329 just know. You can see it in people those eyes, you can see 519 00:36:50.329 --> 00:36:52.849 it in the way they respond to you and see it in the way they 520 00:36:52.889 --> 00:36:55.809 talk about the company. So we really keep a close eye on both of 521 00:36:55.889 --> 00:37:01.280 those things and that's easy to do today as we're relatively small company. A 522 00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:05.719 lot of the people here are very involved with our clients, very involved with 523 00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:07.760 our prospects. That will be a challenge for us as we do grow, 524 00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:14.119 to keep that the eye on both the hard numbers but also the humanity of 525 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.630 things. Are People? Are People still identifying with who we are? Are 526 00:37:17.670 --> 00:37:22.550 they seeing themselves and what we do? So that something will be exploring in 527 00:37:22.670 --> 00:37:24.909 early two thousand and twenty is as we scale, how do we make sure 528 00:37:24.909 --> 00:37:30.699 to keep that human element in tracking? That about the category design, traction, 529 00:37:30.820 --> 00:37:32.980 but also it's who we stand for us a company. We want to 530 00:37:34.059 --> 00:37:37.619 make sure that we keep that in mind even as we grow. And again 531 00:37:37.659 --> 00:37:40.019 I put that well. I'll just add and one of things we keep a 532 00:37:40.059 --> 00:37:44.650 close eye on, as we talked earlier, is just how do our customers 533 00:37:44.690 --> 00:37:50.289 and future customers talk about this and in really rolled out lovers this across their 534 00:37:50.369 --> 00:37:53.289 company? Mean, ultimately, the goal is to empower everyone, and so 535 00:37:54.250 --> 00:38:00.519 part of both the emotional and the quantitative side of this is is that happening 536 00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:06.960 and are we seeing our technology help our customers kind of delivered data storytelling, 537 00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:09.840 the more people within their company in the other fact of that, and I 538 00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:15.710 like what you said in a too about the whether people's eyes were lighting up 539 00:38:15.989 --> 00:38:20.670 as you talked to it might the guy you talked about a moment ago, 540 00:38:20.670 --> 00:38:24.829 who is who's been with the company since the founding, like nine years ago, 541 00:38:25.389 --> 00:38:30.019 and it seems like if you can get someone like that, who's probably 542 00:38:30.139 --> 00:38:32.860 can very much intune with where the company has been, if you can get 543 00:38:32.900 --> 00:38:37.099 them excited about this new idea, this new concept, new phrasing, it's 544 00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:40.139 hard to quantify that, but you can see that kind of emotional response like 545 00:38:40.179 --> 00:38:43.650 it sounds like he felt really good about it. It was very supportive of 546 00:38:43.730 --> 00:38:46.889 that and that's a great early indicated that you're on the right track. Yes, 547 00:38:47.050 --> 00:38:51.889 definitely cool. All right, well, we're almost at a time, 548 00:38:51.929 --> 00:38:54.329 but I want to ask you guys one final question before we go. If 549 00:38:54.369 --> 00:38:58.000 you could go back, I guess it would be nine months ago when you 550 00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:01.519 first started the process. Is there anything that you would do differently if you 551 00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:07.239 had to do it all over again? I think many heads up on that 552 00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:10.510 one and so I question and on, you know, just thinking about it. 553 00:39:12.190 --> 00:39:15.110 I think my honest answer is no, I don't think I would do 554 00:39:15.309 --> 00:39:20.269 anything differently. I think one of the biggest things for me, once we 555 00:39:20.469 --> 00:39:27.099 did obviously get our leadership team on board and excited, is involving the company 556 00:39:27.260 --> 00:39:30.539 really early and consistently. I think that took more effort on our part, 557 00:39:30.619 --> 00:39:35.699 but it's not something I would change because dated a storytelling coming to life. 558 00:39:35.860 --> 00:39:39.090 is every single person here, everything one of our customers. That's something are 559 00:39:39.090 --> 00:39:44.889 really passionate about. So I think overall I wouldn't I wouldn't change much. 560 00:39:45.289 --> 00:39:49.849 It's been a crazy ride but it's been really fun and I think it's just 561 00:39:49.969 --> 00:39:52.920 going to get crazier and more fun. So excited for us to come. 562 00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:57.679 I would would add one thing. That's not what we would change, but 563 00:39:57.800 --> 00:40:01.960 maybe advice going forward. And I feel like the process we went through is 564 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:07.429 immensely valuable for any company, regardless of you're creating a category or not. 565 00:40:07.710 --> 00:40:12.190 So you know, we came out of this process and I feel like we've 566 00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:15.429 already won because we've really defined kind of a vision, in your star, 567 00:40:16.110 --> 00:40:20.590 of where of our company truly and where we want to go, and we 568 00:40:20.710 --> 00:40:25.019 have everybody in the company kind of rallied behind that in participating, and every 569 00:40:25.059 --> 00:40:29.460 company needs that, whether you're creating a category or not, and we didn't 570 00:40:29.460 --> 00:40:34.739 set out with that being the mission, but that was definitely as a side 571 00:40:34.780 --> 00:40:37.050 outcome of that. So I don't think this is much about yes, there's 572 00:40:37.050 --> 00:40:40.610 a question of our creating a new category, you're not, but the process 573 00:40:40.690 --> 00:40:44.650 we went through, I think, is something every company should go through to 574 00:40:44.730 --> 00:40:47.289 make sure that they've crystal clear about why they exist and where they're going and 575 00:40:49.010 --> 00:40:52.400 in the impact are people have on that journey? Yeah, yeah, that's 576 00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:54.360 really insightful. If you you right, if, even if you're not creating 577 00:40:54.519 --> 00:40:59.519 a new category, if you're pursuing a different positioning strategy, if you're you're 578 00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:02.320 not clear on why you exist and where you're headed and how you want to 579 00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:06.630 just standing out, what kind of are sure you want to claim self? 580 00:41:06.710 --> 00:41:09.190 It's very hard to do well and it's hard to get people excited about, 581 00:41:09.510 --> 00:41:13.230 you know, coming to work and getting at their best. So I'm glad 582 00:41:13.269 --> 00:41:17.110 that you can ended our conversation today with with that reminder. Any other advice 583 00:41:17.309 --> 00:41:23.340 or thoughts you want to leave our listeners with? I think my biggest takeaway 584 00:41:23.460 --> 00:41:29.099 from category design, in this process we've gone through, is really just to 585 00:41:29.139 --> 00:41:32.010 keep an open mind and and go all in. So I think when you 586 00:41:32.130 --> 00:41:36.730 think about this, two things. I mean leave ego at the door. 587 00:41:36.969 --> 00:41:39.250 I mean anything you've done before should be on the table to change. And 588 00:41:39.369 --> 00:41:44.250 then also, I really think category design is kind of the epitome of like 589 00:41:44.369 --> 00:41:47.159 go big or go home, and business like. It's really time to jump 590 00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:51.400 all in. You have to be passionate about what you're doing, passionate about 591 00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:53.639 why you come to work and passionate about why you think other people should be 592 00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:59.119 excited about it too. If you're not, it's going to come across really 593 00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:02.030 quickly and you want to see traction, because if you don't believe in it, 594 00:42:02.230 --> 00:42:07.829 other people won't either. So I think just really commit and get excited 595 00:42:07.030 --> 00:42:09.750 and take the leap. I think it's been worth it for us so far 596 00:42:10.429 --> 00:42:15.739 and I would go through this process for any other company. I think everyone 597 00:42:15.820 --> 00:42:19.340 should, and I don't know what Cassidy said, no matter where you are, 598 00:42:20.179 --> 00:42:24.420 try it. Ask yourself this question and really commit. Would I would 599 00:42:24.420 --> 00:42:27.780 add one more words that? So again, a sum that up great and 600 00:42:27.860 --> 00:42:31.690 that is strived to be uncomfortable. Yes, definitely. If you if you 601 00:42:31.849 --> 00:42:36.849 this is an uncomfortable process and you're you're pushing your company and your leadership and 602 00:42:36.969 --> 00:42:39.969 yourself and you feel uncomfortable, then chances are you doing something right. HMM, 603 00:42:40.530 --> 00:42:44.010 strapped to be uncomfortable. Love with that. Think it's a great, 604 00:42:44.599 --> 00:42:47.519 great place to leave our conversation with maybe about to do another interview, you 605 00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:52.280 know, later on after you guys have dominated and really evangelized this category out 606 00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:55.440 there. But I learned so much from both of you today. Anna and 607 00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:59.789 cassidy. Really appreciate you being on the show and sharing your time and all 608 00:42:59.829 --> 00:43:02.150 your wisdom with us. Thanks again. Thank you, John. This is 609 00:43:02.230 --> 00:43:05.510 great. Yeah, our pleasure. Thank you, John, for the time. 610 00:43:05.909 --> 00:43:08.510 All right, take care. Okay. Well, that reps up this 611 00:43:08.670 --> 00:43:13.579 episode of the Category Creation Series. Now, if you're in a process of 612 00:43:13.699 --> 00:43:17.260 building a new category yourself or if you're just looking into it as a potential 613 00:43:17.380 --> 00:43:21.699 positioning strategy for your own company, I really do hope that you found this 614 00:43:21.820 --> 00:43:24.820 episode helpful. If you do have questions, though, about category creation, 615 00:43:24.860 --> 00:43:29.289 or if you just want to recommend a guest, you can reach me at 616 00:43:29.570 --> 00:43:36.489 John at flag in frontiercom. That's John at flag in frontiercom or, of 617 00:43:36.570 --> 00:43:38.809 course, you can look for me on Linkedin. Thanks for listening and I'll 618 00:43:38.809 --> 00:43:45.039 see you next time. We totally get it. We publish a ton of 619 00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:49.280 content on this podcast and it can be a lot to keep up with. 620 00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:52.960 That's why we've started the B tob growth big three, a no fluff email 621 00:43:53.079 --> 00:43:58.750 that boils down our three biggest takeaways from an entire week of episodes. Sign 622 00:43:58.829 --> 00:44:05.909 up today at Sweet Phish Mediacom Big Three. That sweet fish Mediacom Big Three