#Books 10: How to Turn Customers Into Raving Fans w/ Douglas Burdett & James Muir

WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:10.390 A relationship with the right referral partner could be a game changer for any BEDB 2 00:00:10.509 --> 00:00:15.150 company. So what if you could reverse engineer these relationships at a moment's notice, 3 00:00:15.189 --> 00:00:20.629 start a podcast, invite potential referral partners to be guests on your show 4 00:00:21.269 --> 00:00:26.019 and grow your referral network faster than ever? Learn more. At Sweet Fish 5 00:00:26.100 --> 00:00:35.929 Mediacom you're listening to be tob growth, a daily podcast for B TOB leaders. 6 00:00:36.530 --> 00:00:40.009 We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary vanner truck and Simon 7 00:00:40.090 --> 00:00:44.369 Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority of our guests. That's 8 00:00:44.409 --> 00:00:49.009 because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. Most of 9 00:00:49.049 --> 00:00:53.640 our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're implementing strategy, 10 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:58.159 they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BTB companies in the 11 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:00.719 world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet fish media, 12 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:04.629 a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one of the cohosts 13 00:01:04.670 --> 00:01:08.469 of this show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, you'll hear 14 00:01:08.590 --> 00:01:12.109 stories from behind the scenes of our own business. Will share the ups and 15 00:01:12.230 --> 00:01:17.189 downs of our journey as we attempt to take over the world. Just getting 16 00:01:17.790 --> 00:01:26.219 well, maybe let's get into the show. Hello and welcome to the BB 17 00:01:26.420 --> 00:01:30.939 grows show, monthly book talk. I'm Douglas SPURREDEAD, hosts to the marketing 18 00:01:30.939 --> 00:01:34.810 book podcast, where each week I published an interview with the author of a 19 00:01:34.930 --> 00:01:38.650 new marketing or sales book to help my listeners succeed in the quickly changing world 20 00:01:38.689 --> 00:01:44.010 of marketing and sales. Joining me is my friend James Mure, author of 21 00:01:44.090 --> 00:01:48.840 the perfect close, the secret to closing sales, the best selling practices and 22 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:53.439 techniques for closing the deal. In this monthly episode of the BB Growth Show, 23 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:57.280 we recap some of the key ideas from the marketing sales books that were 24 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:02.549 recently featured on the marketing book podcast. I read every book featured on the 25 00:02:02.629 --> 00:02:07.389 Marketing Book Podcast, but James Reads even more books than I do and he 26 00:02:07.550 --> 00:02:13.110 listens to every episode of the Marketing Book Podcast. So I'm delighted that he 27 00:02:13.430 --> 00:02:16.620 can join me and if either of US can recommend any marketing or sales books 28 00:02:16.659 --> 00:02:22.460 or other resources for whatever situation you find yourself in, please feel free to 29 00:02:22.539 --> 00:02:24.300 connect with us on linkedin where we can chat and we'll do our best to 30 00:02:24.740 --> 00:02:28.819 point you in the right direction and try and save you some time. James, 31 00:02:29.300 --> 00:02:31.530 welcome to the B Tob Growth Show, book talk. Thank you, 32 00:02:31.610 --> 00:02:35.210 Douglas, and that, course, that's how we met, because I listen 33 00:02:35.330 --> 00:02:38.770 to every single episode of the Marketing Book Podcast. So and I appreciate your 34 00:02:38.810 --> 00:02:45.080 listenership. It's one of my favorite shows, hands down. No no no 35 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:49.960 BS. So in this episode we're going to talk about five recent books featured 36 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:53.960 on the marketing book podcast and those are non obvious mega trends. How to 37 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:59.870 see what others miss and predict the future by Rohit Bargava. FANNOCRACY, turning 38 00:02:59.949 --> 00:03:04.349 fans into customers and customers into fans, by David Merriman, Scott and Rico 39 00:03:04.430 --> 00:03:08.069 Scott. The will to die, a novel of suspense by Joe Polizi. 40 00:03:09.110 --> 00:03:14.620 Alchemy, the dark arts and curious science of creating brands, business and life 41 00:03:14.659 --> 00:03:20.060 by Rory Sutherland and finally, performance partnerships. The checkered past, changing present 42 00:03:20.060 --> 00:03:23.699 and exciting future of affiliate marketing by Robert Glazer. So onto the books, 43 00:03:23.740 --> 00:03:28.330 and first up we have non obvious mega trends. How to see what others 44 00:03:28.409 --> 00:03:30.889 miss and predict the future by Rowe hit Bargaba becrise. He's been on the 45 00:03:30.930 --> 00:03:36.090 show a few times now and and this book is part of that non obvious 46 00:03:36.090 --> 00:03:38.409 trends series, of which I'm a fan, and this kind of busbook kind 47 00:03:38.409 --> 00:03:40.800 of goes one step further in, you know, telling us how we can 48 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:45.159 spot our own trends. So tell us a little bit about non obvious mega 49 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:47.439 trends. Yes, well, interestingly enough, row hit is the one and 50 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:52.400 only member of the marketing podcast five timers club now and there is one, 51 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:54.000 an other guy, Mark Sche for, who's the one and only member the 52 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:59.710 six timers club. But row hit has been catapulted to the to the top. 53 00:03:59.830 --> 00:04:04.310 They're because for several years he was always the first guest each year because 54 00:04:04.469 --> 00:04:10.539 his book would come out about the what all the trends were that friends are 55 00:04:10.819 --> 00:04:14.939 yeah, so now what he's doing here, though? Is he going to 56 00:04:15.020 --> 00:04:16.339 stay in that line of work? But he's not going to have a book 57 00:04:16.420 --> 00:04:20.019 every year. And also, I think it was a lot of the retailers 58 00:04:20.060 --> 00:04:23.019 were like, well, you're going to come out with another one. Why 59 00:04:23.019 --> 00:04:27.129 should we buy these? So but his book is already a Wall Street Journal 60 00:04:27.170 --> 00:04:31.689 and USA Today Best Seller. And basically what he does is in when he's 61 00:04:31.689 --> 00:04:35.170 done this for years, is he is a careful observer. He and his 62 00:04:35.290 --> 00:04:40.759 team actually they observe all these interesting things that are going on, all these 63 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:46.319 things that could be part of a trend, and then what they do is 64 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:51.160 they are able to see which trends seem to be picking up velocity, so 65 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:55.870 the ones that are starting to take off, and those become sort of the 66 00:04:55.990 --> 00:05:00.029 mega trends, and it's very interesting. And then the other thing that's just 67 00:05:00.230 --> 00:05:02.870 amazing about what he does is he goes back in grades himself. He goes 68 00:05:02.910 --> 00:05:06.069 back ten years saying here's where I got it right, and his grit his 69 00:05:06.339 --> 00:05:11.459 it's interesting because his his ability to spot these trends is only getting better and 70 00:05:11.540 --> 00:05:15.139 better. It's almost like machine learning, and so there's always very interesting trends 71 00:05:15.180 --> 00:05:18.339 there. And, as I once said a couple years ago, you know, 72 00:05:18.579 --> 00:05:24.449 his book reminded me of how, you know, when my kids were 73 00:05:24.490 --> 00:05:27.889 growing up, I would never notice that they were growing up because I was 74 00:05:27.930 --> 00:05:30.889 there every day, but then somebody would come along who'd may be only seen 75 00:05:30.970 --> 00:05:33.209 them once a year and they'd say, wow, they've really grown because the 76 00:05:33.290 --> 00:05:36.959 same sort of thing reading his books where I'm reading about lest things that I 77 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:42.319 probably heard about but I didn't realize that they were, for lack of a 78 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:46.680 better term, a thing. And once a year you read his book and 79 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:50.110 you start to realize, wow, this, this is really starting to become 80 00:05:50.149 --> 00:05:55.990 much more significant. And he shows you how to spot trends and he also 81 00:05:56.149 --> 00:05:59.470 skewers a lot of the Charlatan's that claim to be talking about trends, and 82 00:05:59.589 --> 00:06:01.990 it's really bad at the end of each year where they say, Oh, 83 00:06:02.069 --> 00:06:06.139 these the top things for next year or these were the biggest trends this year, 84 00:06:06.540 --> 00:06:10.540 and he shows how most people doing that are trying to sell something. 85 00:06:12.259 --> 00:06:15.579 Like if you're in the drone business, you're going to say this was the 86 00:06:15.579 --> 00:06:19.569 year of drones. The yeah, we gotta blast those guys. Yeah, 87 00:06:19.569 --> 00:06:25.610 yeah, so it made me smarter about observing what was going on, very 88 00:06:25.610 --> 00:06:29.529 selfserving trends. Yeah, yeah, so it makes you a little more, 89 00:06:29.850 --> 00:06:33.399 you know, skeptical, and he talks about how it's important to understand the 90 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:40.360 difference between a trend and a fad. So a lot of people mistake fads 91 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:45.480 as trends. Like I said earlier, it's a trend if it's actually picking 92 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:47.910 up velocity, picking up ahead of steam, if it's a fat if it 93 00:06:48.029 --> 00:06:51.310 comes and goes. It's really very interesting how he does these things. But 94 00:06:51.430 --> 00:06:55.790 one of the most interesting things in the book, and I've seen traces of 95 00:06:55.870 --> 00:06:58.629 this and other books that I've read for the show, is he talks about 96 00:06:58.709 --> 00:07:03.620 this human mode and in this increasingly digital, you know, somewhat in personal 97 00:07:03.740 --> 00:07:12.339 world, the power of authenticity is becoming even more important and powerful and he 98 00:07:12.420 --> 00:07:18.209 talks about the importance of showing vulnerability and unperfect and humans are looking for vulnerability 99 00:07:18.569 --> 00:07:23.610 and on perfection. So one of the worst things you could do is to 100 00:07:23.730 --> 00:07:28.209 try to peer too slick, too polished. It's just too suspicious and this 101 00:07:28.370 --> 00:07:31.360 kind of goes against the grain of a lot of businesses that want to seem 102 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:36.240 perfect in perfectionistic. One of the other trends that he talked about that was 103 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:43.240 so interesting is what he calls at tension wealth, where I don't think a 104 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:47.790 lot of companies realize that, as I jokingly say, sometimes you know your 105 00:07:48.110 --> 00:07:55.389 company's business message is competing with cat videos. You know, you know what 106 00:07:55.430 --> 00:07:58.660 I mean. There is so much this fighting for our attention, much more 107 00:07:58.860 --> 00:08:03.579 so than a few years ago. So this at tension issue is seems to 108 00:08:03.579 --> 00:08:05.379 be a real blindside for a lot of companies. So they don't realize that 109 00:08:05.980 --> 00:08:09.939 people are interested in what they have and then it's just getting harder and harder 110 00:08:11.019 --> 00:08:16.410 and harder to get and keep people's attention. Agreed, and he he actually 111 00:08:16.490 --> 00:08:18.250 goes to the one step further and kind of gives some suggestions on how to 112 00:08:18.250 --> 00:08:22.490 leverage those particular those two trends that you just gave about, you know, 113 00:08:22.810 --> 00:08:26.250 being more human, using more human language. It's okay to be flawed as 114 00:08:26.290 --> 00:08:30.480 long as it's authentic. And then on the tension wealth area, you know, 115 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:35.120 talking about storytelling and how you can use that to get their attention, 116 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:37.799 how you need to do it in a way that people can see themselves in 117 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:41.789 the story. And then kind of on the Cotel that one was the trend 118 00:08:41.870 --> 00:08:45.190 of trying to help people to figure out what they should be paying attention to 119 00:08:45.629 --> 00:08:46.629 right now. Give me a tool that helps me. Oh, if you 120 00:08:46.710 --> 00:08:50.710 like this, you will also like this other thing. But that was an 121 00:08:50.710 --> 00:08:54.740 interesting way of leveraging that particular trend. Yeah, and curation is a strategy. 122 00:08:54.860 --> 00:08:58.940 The UES, I mean even like this marketing book podcast where it's helping 123 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:03.620 people to decide what books they want to read or what toxics they want to 124 00:09:03.659 --> 00:09:07.500 learn more about, which, of course, puts the pressure on me. 125 00:09:09.419 --> 00:09:11.570 Here you are, your leveraging the trend right now. That's right, that's 126 00:09:11.610 --> 00:09:16.129 right. So it's like, oh my gosh, now I have to really 127 00:09:16.370 --> 00:09:18.450 well because there's so many books that now come in. I have to there's 128 00:09:18.529 --> 00:09:22.529 tables of books down. I'm having such a nice problem to have because we're 129 00:09:22.649 --> 00:09:26.320 started. When I started a podcast, I didn't think that there were fifty 130 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:31.000 two marketing books written per year. Evidently there are. There's there's a lot 131 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:35.559 of them. So that, yeah, nice problem to have. So so 132 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:41.309 this this book goes further into trying to help you understand and how to spy 133 00:09:41.389 --> 00:09:43.190 your on trends. He gives a bunch of different methods in there. We 134 00:09:43.269 --> 00:09:46.870 probably don't, with five books today, have time to go through all those, 135 00:09:46.590 --> 00:09:50.789 but you know, his one takeaway with this was be more up and 136 00:09:50.830 --> 00:09:54.500 minded. Right, read things that you wouldn't normally read, because that gives 137 00:09:54.539 --> 00:09:58.460 you exposure to sources, and that tied right into his one thing that readers 138 00:09:58.500 --> 00:10:01.899 can do, which is read magazines that are aren't not necessarily targeted at you, 139 00:10:01.940 --> 00:10:05.379 because that gives you exposure to these other things. So I love all 140 00:10:05.419 --> 00:10:07.929 of her hits books. This book is no exception. I thought it was 141 00:10:07.970 --> 00:10:11.370 a great read. Yes, all right. Next up we've got fedocracy, 142 00:10:11.809 --> 00:10:16.169 turning fans into customers and customers into fans, by David Merman Scott and his 143 00:10:16.210 --> 00:10:20.639 daughter Rico Scott, and this book is from the Patron Saints of the Marketing 144 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:24.799 Book Podcast. So tell us why you call David Merman Scott the patron saint 145 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:28.440 of the marketing book podcast. Okay, so quick backstory. There are two 146 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:33.440 books that have had the biggest impact on my career, my working life, 147 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:35.549 and everyone has one, you know, a couple of these books where you 148 00:10:35.590 --> 00:10:39.190 read the right book at the right time, and one of them was Ogilvie 149 00:10:39.269 --> 00:10:41.669 on advertising, which I read back in the s after I got out of 150 00:10:41.669 --> 00:10:45.110 the army and I said, holy cow, that's what I want to do, 151 00:10:45.309 --> 00:10:48.190 I want to go into advertising, and I did. So I stayed 152 00:10:48.190 --> 00:10:50.659 in advertising for a long time and then I started to realize the whole advertising 153 00:10:50.740 --> 00:10:56.860 world was changing permanently and kind of like we were just talking about in terms 154 00:10:56.899 --> 00:11:00.980 of everyone can be a publisher now there's lots of things trying to get our 155 00:11:00.980 --> 00:11:03.980 attention. There's no more captive audiences and I thought, oh my goodness, 156 00:11:03.019 --> 00:11:07.450 this whole advertising thing that I really enjoyed, it's all going away. So 157 00:11:07.809 --> 00:11:11.250 I read some books and I finally stumbled upon his book the new rules of 158 00:11:11.289 --> 00:11:13.330 Marketing in PR and it was the first edition and I looked at that and 159 00:11:13.370 --> 00:11:18.240 I thought Ah, that's where everything's going and I felt like that's where I 160 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:20.480 want to go and that's, you know, I guess, second bite at 161 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:24.200 the Apple. So I read that book and became a big Fan of his 162 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:26.759 and then I got to meet him at a couple of conferences and I got 163 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:33.669 an autograph copy of his book and he has six editions of that now. 164 00:11:33.750 --> 00:11:37.029 It's been out for over ten years and it's in like twenty nine languages and 165 00:11:37.070 --> 00:11:41.149 it's like the one book I often recommend for people they're trying to get a 166 00:11:41.190 --> 00:11:46.029 handle on modern marketing and sales. So when I sided I wanted to start 167 00:11:46.230 --> 00:11:50.179 this marketing book podcast, I asked him if he would like to be a 168 00:11:50.259 --> 00:11:54.940 guest and he said yes and he was the first guest. But did he 169 00:11:54.059 --> 00:11:56.179 know he was the first guest? No, he didn't. Actually he's. 170 00:11:56.179 --> 00:12:01.490 So we did the interview and after the interview he said this is a this 171 00:12:01.610 --> 00:12:03.809 is a good interview, Douglas. Of course I it was a different book, 172 00:12:03.809 --> 00:12:07.450 but I had read his book and ask the questions about it because it's 173 00:12:07.450 --> 00:12:09.409 a really good interview. He said, how long have you been doing this 174 00:12:09.610 --> 00:12:15.610 and I said that was my first interview, and so he was very nice 175 00:12:15.690 --> 00:12:18.320 by that as well. You did a great job and I think it's going 176 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.039 to work out for you. And so, anyway, whatever I started interview, 177 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:24.159 I've always thinking about the kind words he said and then I've interviewed him 178 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:28.559 of four times now about other books, books he's written. So that's why 179 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:33.669 he's the patron saint of the marketing book podcast and he's very supportive and has 180 00:12:33.789 --> 00:12:37.269 tremendous books and I'm you know, my life is better because I have studied 181 00:12:37.309 --> 00:12:39.990 his books and actually I think his seventh edition, that book is coming out 182 00:12:41.350 --> 00:12:43.269 in the year two thousand and twenty and I believe it's going to be over 183 00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:48.179 like her on, five hundred pages. Holy smokes. Well, well deserve 184 00:12:48.220 --> 00:12:50.139 as the fantastic book. Yeah, you know, for anybody on that might 185 00:12:50.139 --> 00:12:54.539 be listening, it just a two year horn. So for you that maybe 186 00:12:54.620 --> 00:12:58.690 hasn't heard the podcast, you know Doug is absolutely the best interviewer. He 187 00:12:58.850 --> 00:13:03.090 reads every single book, he knows the content of the book from top to 188 00:13:03.169 --> 00:13:07.769 bottom and every single interview is unique. He's not following a formula. So 189 00:13:07.009 --> 00:13:11.919 in the insight that you get from every interview is really unique, and that's 190 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:16.200 what attracted me to your podcast at from the very beginning. It's the quality 191 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:20.000 is just off the charts. It's really the best if you're interested in sales 192 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:22.320 and marketing books. Is really no better podcast. So there I touted your 193 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:26.720 Harn for you. Thank you, I appreciate that and I'll send the check. 194 00:13:28.029 --> 00:13:31.230 All right, let's let's talk a little bit about turning fans into customers 195 00:13:31.269 --> 00:13:35.629 and customers into Fantas fannocracy. So, yes, so it's a little about 196 00:13:35.629 --> 00:13:39.190 the book. He wrote it with his daughter, WHO's a med student, 197 00:13:39.230 --> 00:13:43.740 and what they're talking about in the book is that it's not enough to have 198 00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:48.580 loyal customers. Now, well, it's good to have loyal customers, happy 199 00:13:48.659 --> 00:13:52.899 customers, but the most successful companies are the ones whose customers become fans, 200 00:13:54.299 --> 00:13:58.929 like raving fan, and they talked in the book about how to go about 201 00:13:58.049 --> 00:14:03.129 doing that, and it's again another book he's written. It seems kind of 202 00:14:03.210 --> 00:14:07.690 counterintuitive, but then you read the book in your you realize he gives all 203 00:14:07.690 --> 00:14:13.279 these examples of companies that have not just customers but fans, and it's in 204 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:18.799 all different lines of all even products that people might think are boring. He 205 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.799 talks in the book about how people are becoming increasingly isolated and they're able to 206 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:28.110 build a sense of community by connecting with other people who do similar kinds of 207 00:14:28.190 --> 00:14:31.070 things. In fact, in the interview we laughed because I had taken a 208 00:14:31.110 --> 00:14:35.350 picture of the book as I was reading it and you happen to see that 209 00:14:35.429 --> 00:14:39.340 I had headed on my lap and my I was wearing camouflage pants and there 210 00:14:39.419 --> 00:14:43.139 was a rifle off to the side, and he thought that was very funny 211 00:14:43.179 --> 00:14:46.179 because I was a fan of hunting and I happen to be reading it while 212 00:14:46.220 --> 00:14:50.539 I was hunting. And just so anyone knows, I didn't get any deer 213 00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:56.850 last year because I'm reading these books in the deer stand. So the dare 214 00:14:56.889 --> 00:14:58.970 how looking for dear? Yes, I'm not looking for deer, so I'll 215 00:15:00.009 --> 00:15:03.009 look up or whatever, but as I'm sure I know that I've missed some 216 00:15:03.610 --> 00:15:05.450 because I start reading these books and I'm thinking, well, you got to 217 00:15:05.490 --> 00:15:07.679 sit there for hours and hours. I'm thinking, you know, I'll all 218 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:11.159 see it if it comes by out of the corner of my eye. No, 219 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:15.120 dear. So, anyway, the marketing book podcast is Saving Wildlife. 220 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:20.950 So, but he talks about the idea of people becoming big fans of companies 221 00:15:20.990 --> 00:15:26.269 and it's because the companies are able to shine the light back on on the 222 00:15:26.350 --> 00:15:30.789 fans and what customers are really interested in, the greed. And so he 223 00:15:30.909 --> 00:15:33.870 offers some keys in the book right, about being personal, about having empathy, 224 00:15:33.950 --> 00:15:37.820 which we've heard in some other, you know, good marketing books, 225 00:15:37.940 --> 00:15:41.460 understanding your customer, having curiosity in your customer, a little talk about proximity, 226 00:15:41.899 --> 00:15:45.379 being close to the closer aread of your customer, the more human that 227 00:15:45.539 --> 00:15:48.059 connection becomes. Yeah, and live events can play a bigger role than people 228 00:15:48.139 --> 00:15:52.529 realized. Yeah, I thought, I'm all of that was fantastic. And 229 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:54.529 now the part that I thought was interesting on the podcast, as you guys 230 00:15:54.610 --> 00:16:00.049 debating gating content. Yes, yeah, sure, sure, so a I 231 00:16:00.370 --> 00:16:04.720 the joke was that I said we're going to talk about religion now, because 232 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:10.639 in the book he talks about how some in the marketing world there's you know, 233 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.120 should we it's like a religious debate. Should you put all your content 234 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:17.960 behind a form and require people to fill it out in order to get the 235 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:22.350 content, or should you share it freely? Well, he's always been a 236 00:16:22.389 --> 00:16:26.070 big proponent of just sharing it freely. And now, from a search engine 237 00:16:26.110 --> 00:16:30.190 optimization standpoint, for people that are familiar with pillar pages and all that sort 238 00:16:30.230 --> 00:16:33.740 of thing, it actually works better for the searchingsines to find all that. 239 00:16:33.899 --> 00:16:40.299 You can still generate leads, but now it's sort of like your content should 240 00:16:40.299 --> 00:16:42.460 almost be like a book store where people can check it all out, they 241 00:16:42.500 --> 00:16:45.500 can look at it all before they decide to buy it and give you their 242 00:16:45.659 --> 00:16:51.570 email address, because people all these studies I see people are less and less 243 00:16:51.570 --> 00:16:56.289 inclined to share email addresses now to get content. So you know. But 244 00:16:56.409 --> 00:17:00.600 the joke is it's almost like creationism versus evolution when it comes to when it 245 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:07.000 comes to marketer. But the fact is you need to balance your desire to 246 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.960 generate the lead capture the email address with the fact that people are increasingly less 247 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:15.440 interested in doing that. Agreed. Yeah, and he did to come up 248 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:17.829 with the hybrid way and there right, get the content first and if you 249 00:17:17.950 --> 00:17:19.230 like the content then give me your email address. kind of a way of 250 00:17:19.309 --> 00:17:22.349 doing it. But yeah, he's he's act only on the non gating site, 251 00:17:22.390 --> 00:17:26.789 the content on the side of the formula there. So anyway, I 252 00:17:26.869 --> 00:17:30.579 thought that was a great that's the and that your conversation on the podcast actually 253 00:17:30.700 --> 00:17:32.900 was as good as the content. That's right in the book on that. 254 00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:36.180 Well, thanks you. He's the way up high on the Douglas spurrenet man 255 00:17:36.259 --> 00:17:41.740 crush list, and I just everybody's crush list, right. Yeah, and 256 00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:45.410 and you know he was a model when he was younger. So I'm just 257 00:17:45.329 --> 00:17:48.970 that I did not know that. All right, pay in Japan. He 258 00:17:48.130 --> 00:17:52.009 was a model in Japan. Yeah, I'm getting the Google search out now. 259 00:17:52.049 --> 00:17:55.609 Yeah, so, anyway, that was just another interview. I just 260 00:17:55.769 --> 00:17:59.200 love to being able to do it. So yeah, so one takeaway for 261 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:02.279 him on this one is fandoms not just for musicians and athletes, has for 262 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:06.039 everybody, and the one thing that you could do is just recognize that being 263 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:11.000 passionate about something is actually infectious, and so be openly passionate about whatever you're 264 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:14.509 passionate about. So great book, definitely worth the read. The next up 265 00:18:14.549 --> 00:18:18.549 we've got the will to die, a novel of suspense by Joe Plezzi, 266 00:18:18.710 --> 00:18:22.150 and now this is kind of a unique type of book for your show. 267 00:18:22.589 --> 00:18:25.470 He's been on the show several times now, right, and this is looks 268 00:18:25.589 --> 00:18:27.900 he's a member of the marketing book podcast for Timers Club. That's right. 269 00:18:29.059 --> 00:18:32.900 So I think he's getting the the Taco Bell Bonus at this point at any 270 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:37.460 Sandusky Ohio Taco Bell. Exactly. Sorry. So tell us a little bit 271 00:18:37.460 --> 00:18:40.339 about the will to die. This is a unique s men. Okay, 272 00:18:40.420 --> 00:18:42.369 so it's a murder mystery and here's how it ends. No, I'm kidding. 273 00:18:42.369 --> 00:18:45.170 I want the no spoilers. That's right. In fact, when we 274 00:18:45.609 --> 00:18:51.009 talked about the book, but we didn't talk too much about the book because 275 00:18:51.009 --> 00:18:53.289 it's a mystery and people's treaty. Yeah, but it's a it was a 276 00:18:53.329 --> 00:18:59.119 really interesting murder mystery. Now he's written several marketing books, content books. 277 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:04.799 He's the founder of the Content Marketing Institute, started content marketing world and very 278 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:10.630 smart guy and just as nice as he is smart. And he sold Content 279 00:19:10.710 --> 00:19:14.670 Marketing Institute to another company and still, you know, connected with him. 280 00:19:14.710 --> 00:19:18.950 Helps out. But he decided he wanted to write a novel, a murder 281 00:19:18.029 --> 00:19:21.710 mystery, and he said the reason why is because that would be the only 282 00:19:21.829 --> 00:19:26.059 thing his wife would read, because we get our attention. Yeah, isn't 283 00:19:26.059 --> 00:19:29.180 it a strange, James, what we will do? And I don't we 284 00:19:29.299 --> 00:19:33.539 both been married a long time to our wives and we're still trying to impress 285 00:19:33.579 --> 00:19:37.259 them and it doesn't work. But why hasn't any of my books either Sayeah, 286 00:19:37.299 --> 00:19:40.369 okay, all right, we should start a support crew for you guys. 287 00:19:41.970 --> 00:19:45.049 But so he wrote this book and it was about a murder mystery in 288 00:19:45.170 --> 00:19:48.690 Ohio and it was a guy who was a owned a marketing agency and his 289 00:19:48.769 --> 00:19:52.960 father passed away and then he started to realize there was something going on in 290 00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:59.440 the town of Sandusky were his he was from, his firm was in Cleveland. 291 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:03.839 And what was also interesting was that Joe released this as a free audio 292 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:08.549 book on Itunes. Yeah, first, and then in the spring of two 293 00:20:08.589 --> 00:20:15.269 thousand and twenty he is going to then sell, start selling the kindle version 294 00:20:15.710 --> 00:20:18.349 and then in the summer of two thousand and twenty he's selling the hard copy 295 00:20:18.390 --> 00:20:22.220 of the book. But he's did it kind of backwards because he's building his 296 00:20:22.299 --> 00:20:26.220 audience, he's trying to get his fans, his followers, a pool of 297 00:20:26.299 --> 00:20:29.059 them growing, and he's going to start writing more of these books about this 298 00:20:29.299 --> 00:20:33.299 main character whose name is poloit. So it was sort of an interesting content 299 00:20:33.380 --> 00:20:37.210 marketing play there, where he's trying to build the audience before he's trying to 300 00:20:37.250 --> 00:20:41.210 sell anything, and he actually wrote a book about that, called content ink, 301 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:47.930 about all these companies that actually started with content and they built audiences and 302 00:20:48.250 --> 00:20:52.319 then their audiences told them what they wanted. He said content Marketingsto was a 303 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:56.039 perfect example where they thought they were going to be like a kind of like 304 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.680 an Ebay for content people who needed content writers and all that, and they 305 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:03.240 realized just wasn't working. He almost closed it. But what all these people, 306 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:04.910 because they produced so much content, they were saying, you know, 307 00:21:04.990 --> 00:21:07.829 what we want is events, we want training, and so they were like 308 00:21:08.069 --> 00:21:12.269 Oh okay, well, let's pivot the business and do that. It's become 309 00:21:12.309 --> 00:21:15.349 very, very successful, and so or the one example of that too. 310 00:21:15.589 --> 00:21:18.619 Yeah, so that's that's what he did, and so when he said Hey, 311 00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:21.619 can I come back on the show, and I was very excited to 312 00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:23.660 hear from him, and I said yeah, I said, well, can 313 00:21:23.660 --> 00:21:26.980 you see me to copy the book, because I always read the hard copy 314 00:21:26.980 --> 00:21:29.019 of the book and mark it up and because no, x, there's no 315 00:21:29.140 --> 00:21:32.299 hard copy yet. And so I listened to it. It was the first 316 00:21:32.299 --> 00:21:33.849 audio book I'd ever listened to and I know that you listen to a lot 317 00:21:33.890 --> 00:21:37.529 of audio books. I do, and I don't know that I'm going to 318 00:21:37.569 --> 00:21:41.329 listen to an audiobook again unless I have to, because I just you well, 319 00:21:41.369 --> 00:21:45.569 you have to pay such close attention because when I'm reading the book, 320 00:21:45.569 --> 00:21:48.440 I can make sure I can you know, I follow every little detail and 321 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:52.960 you know it is. So it is very different experience for me. I 322 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:55.200 think a lot of people listen to audio books and that's it and that's a 323 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:59.200 great thing. So what we did talk about in the interview were some really, 324 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:03.230 really big trends in content marketing, the content marketing world, based on 325 00:22:03.269 --> 00:22:06.390 a big keynote he gave, and there were a couple that I wanted to 326 00:22:06.430 --> 00:22:08.430 mention that I think would be very helpful for listeners to this show, the 327 00:22:08.750 --> 00:22:14.029 BB gross show, and he talks about know to be successful at content marketing 328 00:22:14.109 --> 00:22:18.460 and he's seen this a zillion times and I think that's a real number. 329 00:22:18.500 --> 00:22:22.900 Always be selling internally. So now there was all these people that are doing 330 00:22:23.059 --> 00:22:29.180 content marketing. One of the big mistakes they make is not helping people in 331 00:22:29.220 --> 00:22:34.490 their organization understand the point of doing content marketing. And you know you need 332 00:22:34.529 --> 00:22:37.450 to have a strategy for that sort of thing. But that was interesting and 333 00:22:37.490 --> 00:22:42.250 I think that applies to basically anybody in marketing. You know really your most 334 00:22:42.289 --> 00:22:47.319 important audience is your internal audience, and that could be the people that sign 335 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:51.240 your checks and give you direction, but it's also your employees. Make sure 336 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:56.039 everybody in your organization understands what's going on there. And then another thing he 337 00:22:56.200 --> 00:23:03.230 talked about that is a very basic tenant of effective content marketing is where he 338 00:23:03.349 --> 00:23:07.630 says do one great thing and other words, please try to avoid doing check 339 00:23:07.789 --> 00:23:11.910 the box marketing. Okay, let's do a podcast. Did A podcast, 340 00:23:11.029 --> 00:23:15.420 great, check that box. Did we do a book? Okay, check 341 00:23:15.500 --> 00:23:17.579 that. Do we do up? Do we have a blog? Okay, 342 00:23:17.619 --> 00:23:22.019 are we doing new skywriting? Okay, check the no, just do one 343 00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:25.859 thing really, really well. And he again he talks about how so many 344 00:23:25.940 --> 00:23:29.809 companies, the ones that did really well, did one thing, one piece 345 00:23:29.849 --> 00:23:33.809 of one form of content really well before they tried to add a second one. 346 00:23:34.210 --> 00:23:37.730 Yep. So that's a really well examples of that. Yeah, yeah, 347 00:23:38.009 --> 00:23:41.799 the one of the thing I wanted to mention that he talked about where 348 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:45.079 he says plan for the end of social meaning social media is not going to 349 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:51.920 go away, but the organic reach of social where social is going to become 350 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:56.269 much, much more than it already is about paytoplay. So if you want, 351 00:23:56.309 --> 00:23:59.789 you like again, like we talked about earlier in this conversation about the 352 00:23:59.869 --> 00:24:03.869 difficulty trying to get people's attention. I hear all the time that you know, 353 00:24:03.950 --> 00:24:07.029 if, let's say you have thousand facebook fans of your companies facebook page, 354 00:24:07.789 --> 00:24:14.259 there's probably only twenty five that facebook is showing what you're right, you're 355 00:24:14.299 --> 00:24:17.339 proctising. Everyone's always amazed to hear that's so. It's like maybe one to 356 00:24:17.420 --> 00:24:19.940 two percent of your audience is seeing it. Now. If you want more 357 00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:22.740 people to see it, you got to give facebook money. Yep, and 358 00:24:22.980 --> 00:24:26.369 that works well for their business. But I think a lot of people still 359 00:24:26.490 --> 00:24:30.650 think have this antiquated antiquated, that's a funny word to use when talking about 360 00:24:30.650 --> 00:24:37.250 social media, but and antiquated view of social media being quote free. So 361 00:24:37.529 --> 00:24:41.240 you know, plan for the end of social stop thinking of it is as 362 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:44.440 free media. It's great meet is great for you know, it's like so 363 00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:48.359 many tactics. It works really well in certain instances, but it's not this 364 00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:51.799 cure all that a lot of people have. So that, yes, that 365 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:56.150 was a very different kind of interview. It was a piece of fiction which 366 00:24:56.190 --> 00:24:59.829 I did not have, but I think it was but a good interview. 367 00:24:59.869 --> 00:25:02.349 Yeah, yeah, I'm really full of a lot of helpful information, for 368 00:25:02.430 --> 00:25:03.750 it was that. I would kind of put that book into sort of the 369 00:25:03.829 --> 00:25:07.380 category of infotayments. Right. It's entertaining with some market lessons mixed in. 370 00:25:07.500 --> 00:25:10.700 So I wish for me is a good Combo. So I enjoyed it. 371 00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:14.019 Yeah, all right. Well, next up we've got alchemy. That and 372 00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:18.339 I love this title. Alchemy, the dark art and curious science of creating 373 00:25:18.380 --> 00:25:22.890 brand's business and life by Rory Sutherland. Now, I think anybody who wants 374 00:25:22.930 --> 00:25:26.170 to see the world and people more accurately will like this book. Right. 375 00:25:26.210 --> 00:25:30.529 So tell us a little bit about Alchemy, the dark art and curious science. 376 00:25:30.849 --> 00:25:36.000 Who? Yes, it brings to mine Harry Potter and of Course Rory 377 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:41.279 is a is an Englishman and he's the vice chairman of Ogilvie in UK. 378 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.880 This book was one of the most interesting books I've ever read. It's a 379 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:48.559 big book and it was a hells over three and fifty pages and it was 380 00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:51.990 a real adventure to read. And and as as I said, I was 381 00:25:52.109 --> 00:25:55.509 being mean, of course, but I said, if Malcolm Gladwell had a 382 00:25:55.549 --> 00:25:59.349 sense of humor, this is the book he would have written. I'm sure 383 00:25:59.430 --> 00:26:03.950 Malcolm Glade wasn't sense of humor, but you just lost your stance of getting 384 00:26:03.990 --> 00:26:07.059 Malcolm. But yeah, okay, sorry sir. Sorry, Mr Gladwell. 385 00:26:07.059 --> 00:26:10.859 Actually I'm reading one of his books right now called talking to strangers. I'm 386 00:26:10.859 --> 00:26:14.660 enjoying it very much phenomenal. So that's my effort to suck up to him. 387 00:26:15.140 --> 00:26:19.289 So at the core of the book he talks about how so much of 388 00:26:19.410 --> 00:26:23.930 what happens in the world and in business is the logical it has to and 389 00:26:25.170 --> 00:26:29.250 much of what goes on in the human brain it's not as logical as we 390 00:26:29.410 --> 00:26:33.720 think it is. And the problem is in our scientific world we're in, 391 00:26:34.359 --> 00:26:38.839 people are trying to solve problems with logic when they should be using what he 392 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:48.950 calls psycho logic, meaning understanding what drives human behavior, actually produces better results, 393 00:26:49.470 --> 00:26:53.950 but so few people's brains are trained that way. It was an it's 394 00:26:55.029 --> 00:26:57.869 also an interesting interview because I didn't get to talk much, not that I 395 00:26:57.950 --> 00:27:03.059 wanted to. He was just on fire. He was just going to town 396 00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:08.220 and he's also very popular Ted Talk Speaker. But let me just miss this 397 00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:11.460 something he he talks about the how the book is not an attack on the 398 00:27:11.619 --> 00:27:15.970 uses of logic or reason, but it's an attack on a dangerous kind of 399 00:27:17.529 --> 00:27:22.490 logical overreach which demands that every solution should have a convincing rationale before it can 400 00:27:22.529 --> 00:27:27.009 even be considered or attempted. It brought to mind, amongst other things, 401 00:27:27.049 --> 00:27:30.119 I mean there's so much in this book, but if you think about in 402 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:36.559 sales, people don't buy the best product. That's usually people don't buy the 403 00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:41.440 cheapest product. And now why is that? You know there there's other there's 404 00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:45.910 other reasons why they do that, and it's for very interesting reasons that have 405 00:27:47.069 --> 00:27:51.990 to do with the human brain and what humans want. He talks about how 406 00:27:52.869 --> 00:27:57.349 we have this culture now that prizes measuring things over understanding people, and I 407 00:27:57.430 --> 00:28:00.980 thought that was a big part of the book where he's saying, yes, 408 00:28:02.059 --> 00:28:06.180 you should measure things but, more importantly, you'll be much more successful. 409 00:28:06.220 --> 00:28:11.099 And he has example after example of companies that, once again, that understood 410 00:28:11.180 --> 00:28:15.130 their customers better, they always win. And some of the greatest business ideas, 411 00:28:15.809 --> 00:28:19.769 despite what company founders will tell you about how logical they came about, 412 00:28:21.250 --> 00:28:26.809 he says almost all of them. We're we're accidents. Yes, so of 413 00:28:26.849 --> 00:28:30.039 data in the book on that. Yes, yes, Oh, one scientific 414 00:28:30.119 --> 00:28:34.039 study after another. It was just, as I think I said, reading 415 00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:37.400 his book was an adventure, a very entertaining book. Is, in fact, 416 00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:41.789 I wouldn't describe the book as a cookbook on how to do things. 417 00:28:41.349 --> 00:28:45.829 It's inspiring. It's encouraging us to think differently and move past sort of superficial 418 00:28:45.869 --> 00:28:49.750 analysis. But I mean, I'm going to read this book again, right, 419 00:28:49.789 --> 00:28:52.910 because it's almost thinking the same thing. Yeah, but it's also you 420 00:28:52.990 --> 00:28:56.660 got to wrap your head around all the information and there is just amazing. 421 00:28:56.660 --> 00:29:00.099 It's unusually deep for such an entertaining book. I would say yes, yes, 422 00:29:00.259 --> 00:29:03.059 and you know, as you can imagine, I struggle with any kind 423 00:29:03.059 --> 00:29:07.420 of deep concept. I mean, anything requires me to think is really a 424 00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:10.890 struggle and that's why you know, his book did get me to do that 425 00:29:11.009 --> 00:29:12.130 one thing I hate to do, which is to think. So yeah, 426 00:29:12.170 --> 00:29:15.329 it was a it was in and really I heard from a lot of listeners 427 00:29:15.369 --> 00:29:19.529 they really enjoyed it, and that's one that might actually I might actually go 428 00:29:19.650 --> 00:29:23.440 back and reread, which I don't often do. I think I would really 429 00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:26.039 enjoy that. I'd probably get even more out of it the second time. 430 00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:30.759 It's like a movie you see several times you enjoyed more and more each time. 431 00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:33.880 That's more because it's so rich. Well, that book is stuff in 432 00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:38.670 one of those. So his one takeaway was if your definition of success involves 433 00:29:38.710 --> 00:29:44.470 in some form of human behavior, which, literally, whose definition wouldn't include 434 00:29:44.470 --> 00:29:47.630 some form of human behavior, well then logic alone is not going to be 435 00:29:47.869 --> 00:29:52.150 sufficient tool kit for that. You've got to go to psychology, right, 436 00:29:52.309 --> 00:29:55.140 and then his ties right into his one thing you can do, which is 437 00:29:55.220 --> 00:29:57.940 you got a question your assumptions right, because see, there's about a million 438 00:29:57.980 --> 00:30:03.140 examples in that book where the assumptions that we're making are not correct. So 439 00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:07.049 definitely a great book, critical reminder that the world isn't what it seems to 440 00:30:07.089 --> 00:30:11.849 be. Right, and they'll say yes, you know I'd like like there's, 441 00:30:11.529 --> 00:30:14.690 you know, a lot of beliefs that we have in our brains just 442 00:30:14.769 --> 00:30:18.809 aren't accurate and that caused us to see the world in the way that's not 443 00:30:18.930 --> 00:30:22.799 accurate. And of course it's much easier to great value if you accurately perceive 444 00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:26.480 the world. So now standing reads. Last up we have performance partnerships, 445 00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:33.400 the checkered past, changing present and exciting future of affiliate marketing by Robert Glazier, 446 00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:37.509 and that there is just ask is leverage and partnerships and affiliate marketing. 447 00:30:37.549 --> 00:30:40.430 So I was really excited to read this book. Tell us a little bit 448 00:30:40.430 --> 00:30:45.150 about Robert Glazier's new book. So He's an expert on affiliate marketing and I 449 00:30:45.589 --> 00:30:48.390 one reason I was particularly keen on having that book on it's because I've never 450 00:30:48.470 --> 00:30:52.859 had a book after two hundred and fifty episodes about affiliate marketing, and so 451 00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:56.900 I want to learn more about it. And it was something where I could 452 00:30:56.900 --> 00:31:03.019 just imagine some listener coming into work on Monday and the CEO says affiliate marketing. 453 00:31:03.099 --> 00:31:06.250 What are you guys doing about that? He's like, you better come 454 00:31:06.289 --> 00:31:07.769 on, folks, to got to gotta know what this stuff is. And 455 00:31:08.009 --> 00:31:11.089 so it's very, very interesting, and he talked about how affiliate marketing was 456 00:31:11.170 --> 00:31:15.250 like a scene from that movie the Big Short, where all these guys in 457 00:31:15.289 --> 00:31:19.680 the subprime lending world thought, you know, there's you can't lose it. 458 00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:25.680 Were minting money, there's no downside of, you know, making these bad 459 00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:29.039 loans. They're going to be backed up. And years ago we went to 460 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:33.710 an affiliate marketing convention, it might have been in Vegas appropriately, and it 461 00:31:33.869 --> 00:31:37.269 was the same vibe where they were like this is we're minting money, you 462 00:31:37.349 --> 00:31:41.789 can't go wrong. And part of the problem. He's very skeptical. There 463 00:31:41.910 --> 00:31:48.980 was massive fraud in affiliate marketing, just like there's still massive fraud in digital 464 00:31:48.099 --> 00:31:56.099 display advertising. And so basically affiliate marketing is where you are paying a commission 465 00:31:56.140 --> 00:32:00.220 to people that are bringing you business, and it's really important in the book 466 00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:06.849 to show how the fraud was happening, like in terms of attribution and like 467 00:32:06.970 --> 00:32:09.329 if you've ever, I'll give you an example, if you've ever gone to 468 00:32:09.529 --> 00:32:14.450 buy something online and it'll say do you have a promotion code? So naturally 469 00:32:14.490 --> 00:32:19.119 we all do this. Will type in, you know, ABC retailer Promotion 470 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:22.400 Code to see if there's one. We can cry, you know, and 471 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:25.279 yeah, why pay more? Right. So you put it in and you 472 00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:30.230 go. It'll bring up some website and it'll say, oh, we don't 473 00:32:30.349 --> 00:32:32.109 here's a code. But you know, and of course they never work, 474 00:32:32.430 --> 00:32:37.750 or they rarely work. But what happened was they were putting a pixel on 475 00:32:37.069 --> 00:32:43.670 your computer and then they were getting credit for that sale with that retailer. 476 00:32:44.150 --> 00:32:46.740 Well, you see how that's fraudulent, even though maybe the original reason that 477 00:32:46.819 --> 00:32:50.900 you went there could have been a totally different yeah. Well, they had 478 00:32:51.019 --> 00:32:54.220 nothing to do with the customer was already ready to make a purchase and these 479 00:32:54.259 --> 00:32:59.049 people were jumping in line at the last minute and they were getting credit. 480 00:32:59.490 --> 00:33:02.529 And then there's also these networks, and the networks represented the buyers and the 481 00:33:02.650 --> 00:33:07.650 sellers, which she I don't know what could go wrong. They're a lot 482 00:33:07.730 --> 00:33:13.759 of fraud. But affiliate marketing is getting much more ethical and they're using technology 483 00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:21.000 well and companies are getting better at understanding the true value of paying these commissions. 484 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:22.880 And so it was. It was interesting. I don't know that I'll 485 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:27.150 have another book on that, unless maybe he writes another one, because it's 486 00:33:27.190 --> 00:33:30.190 just not a there haven't been many books about that topic. But it was 487 00:33:30.309 --> 00:33:34.829 one that I think marketers should know about. Yeah, I think one of 488 00:33:34.910 --> 00:33:38.549 the most compelling aspects of what was in the book in the affiliate marketing is 489 00:33:38.710 --> 00:33:43.980 that you generally only paying for an actual action that takes place. So if 490 00:33:44.019 --> 00:33:45.420 a sale takes place or if you're asking for a lead, you don't have 491 00:33:45.460 --> 00:33:49.220 to pay until you actually get one of those, and so that's the a 492 00:33:49.259 --> 00:33:52.660 lure of it. The trick, of course, is the accounting of all 493 00:33:52.779 --> 00:33:54.970 that, and so that book blows apart a ton of the when he says 494 00:33:54.970 --> 00:33:59.809 the checkered passed in the subtitle, he spends quite a better time on the 495 00:33:59.849 --> 00:34:02.410 checkered past and really a bunch of the pitfalls right that you could fall into 496 00:34:02.529 --> 00:34:06.250 doing it. So there was one guy who talked about in the book who 497 00:34:06.289 --> 00:34:12.920 went to prison. Yeah, so listen up. Yeah, take away from 498 00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:15.079 him on this one. Is the best that he claims. It's the best 499 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:19.880 marketing channel when you do it properly, and now I will I testify. 500 00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:23.750 I think that when you can use partners that there's massive leverage in that. 501 00:34:23.909 --> 00:34:27.989 So I might agree with him on that. One thing they can do is 502 00:34:28.110 --> 00:34:30.949 what he suggested is that if you have a program that you can go figure 503 00:34:30.989 --> 00:34:35.510 out your top ten publishers and go look at their conversion race and the revenue 504 00:34:35.829 --> 00:34:38.539 and then look at their site and how you're being promoted there and see if 505 00:34:38.579 --> 00:34:43.860 that's actually making sense. And then he actually has a site that cook people 506 00:34:43.900 --> 00:34:47.099 can go to call affiliate Greatercom, where you can sort of tests and vets 507 00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:52.539 the quality of affiliate program if you've already got one going. So it definitely 508 00:34:52.539 --> 00:34:55.610 an interesting for a into the mechanics and the pitfalls and the future of affiliate 509 00:34:55.650 --> 00:35:00.489 marketing. Very eliminating, worth while read. As always, I learned a 510 00:35:00.610 --> 00:35:05.289 lot from this month's books. Really Stellar collection of books here. So tell 511 00:35:05.289 --> 00:35:07.480 us a little bit about the new books that you've got coming up on the 512 00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:10.440 marketing book podcast. Okay, so the next time we meet there's only to 513 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:16.400 be four books and they're all nonfiction. Okay, really get back on track 514 00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:22.230 and the books we're going to talk about next time. So please stay tuned. 515 00:35:22.550 --> 00:35:29.030 Our sales truth debunk the myths, apply powerful principles win more new sales. 516 00:35:29.110 --> 00:35:36.940 By Mike Weinberg. The seventh level. Transform Your Business through meaningful engagement 517 00:35:37.380 --> 00:35:43.019 with your customers and employees. By Amanda Slaven same side selling, how integrity 518 00:35:43.099 --> 00:35:50.369 and collaboration drive extraordinary results for sellers and buyers. By Ian Alsman and content 519 00:35:50.570 --> 00:35:55.690 based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know by a 520 00:35:55.769 --> 00:36:01.329 guy named James Carberry who evidently has a podcast called the B tob growth show, 521 00:36:01.570 --> 00:36:05.880 so he's probably listening to this right now. So Hey, James, 522 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:09.800 but James and next episode, the next episode of the Book Talk, we're 523 00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:12.920 going to be talking about you, my friend, but it's only going to 524 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:15.320 be good stuff. So that's it for this month's be to be growth show 525 00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:20.230 book talk. To learn more about the marketing book podcast, Visit Marketing Book 526 00:36:20.269 --> 00:36:23.590 podcastcom. And to learn more about James and his excellent book, the if 527 00:36:23.630 --> 00:36:32.139 it closed, visit pure mirrorcom. That's spelled pure muirecom. And, as 528 00:36:32.139 --> 00:36:36.780 I mentioned earlier, if either of US can recommend a specific sales or marketing 529 00:36:36.860 --> 00:36:39.219 book or other resource for whatever situation you find yourself in, connect with us 530 00:36:39.219 --> 00:36:43.380 on Linkedin, where we can chat and we'll do our best to get you 531 00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:46.449 pointed in the right direction. And remember, keep learning, because these days 532 00:36:46.570 --> 00:36:54.289 the big learners are big earners. Hey there, this is James Carberry, 533 00:36:54.329 --> 00:36:58.610 founder of sweet fish media and one of the cohosts of this show. The 534 00:36:58.650 --> 00:37:01.119 last year and a half I've been working on my very first book. In 535 00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:06.320 the book I share the three part framework we used as the foundation for our 536 00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:08.840 growth here at sweetfish. Now there are lots of companies that ever he's a 537 00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:13.280 bunch of money and have grown insanely fast, and we featured a lot of 538 00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:16.469 them here on the show. We've decided to bootstrap our business, which usually 539 00:37:16.510 --> 00:37:21.869 equates to pretty slow growth, but using the strategy outlined in the book, 540 00:37:22.269 --> 00:37:24.989 we are on pace to be one of inks fastest growing companies in two thousand 541 00:37:24.989 --> 00:37:30.059 and twenty. The book is called content based networking, how to instantly connect 542 00:37:30.059 --> 00:37:32.099 with anyone you want to know. If you're a fan of audio books, 543 00:37:32.139 --> 00:37:35.980 like me, you can find the book on audible or be like physical books. 544 00:37:36.019 --> 00:37:39.019 You can also find it on Amazon. Just search content based networking or 545 00:37:39.059 --> 00:37:45.849 James Carberry car be aary, in audible or Amazon and it should pop right 546 00:37:45.889 --> up.