1333: Stop Doing Lazy Attribution w/ James Gilbert

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:09.189 Guys, welcome back to be toob growth. I'm Timmy Bower, the content 2 00:00:09.310 --> 00:00:13.509 strategist at sweetfish, and I am here today with James Gilbert, head of 3 00:00:13.669 --> 00:00:17.429 marketing at crm. Next, James, welcome to the show. What did 4 00:00:17.469 --> 00:00:22.980 you have for breakfast today? I didn't eat breakfast Ding it. I had 5 00:00:23.100 --> 00:00:28.219 cobble. Might lead on that one. Guys, I'm really excited for what 6 00:00:28.339 --> 00:00:31.980 we're going to be talking about today. We are talking about attribution and you, 7 00:00:32.179 --> 00:00:37.850 James, have a there's a belief that is commonly held that you passionately 8 00:00:37.890 --> 00:00:43.329 disagree with about attribution. And what is that belief? That one model is 9 00:00:43.530 --> 00:00:49.649 the only one. So you're saying that there are lots of marketing folks that 10 00:00:49.890 --> 00:00:55.280 believe that this is the model that you do attribution and that's not the case. 11 00:00:55.640 --> 00:00:58.920 That one size fits all is not good. Absolutely. As matter of 12 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:02.600 fact, I would even go so far to say that the reason why people 13 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:07.670 might pick one model over another is because they're lazy. Hmm, let me 14 00:01:07.790 --> 00:01:14.709 have you clarify what this one size fits all attitude is before we dive into 15 00:01:14.790 --> 00:01:19.019 like how it's wrong and how should people be thinking? Okay, well, 16 00:01:19.099 --> 00:01:22.819 to get into this specifics, there has been a nocean for a long, 17 00:01:22.900 --> 00:01:26.859 long time that first and last touch are the one size fits all models for 18 00:01:26.980 --> 00:01:33.569 attribution that goes across so many avenues of marketing, so many different channels of 19 00:01:33.689 --> 00:01:38.250 marketing. But I'll explain lay a little bit later in this episode on why 20 00:01:38.370 --> 00:01:42.849 there can be some significant amount of data that you're going to be missing out 21 00:01:42.969 --> 00:01:47.560 on by just doing that model and it by the way, those models work 22 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:52.760 for some companies. They work great and it does provide a level of visibility 23 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:57.359 that's unique to marketing and it does provide some cells and marketing alignment. But 24 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:02.469 ultimately you got to get into into the weeds of the data and if you're 25 00:02:02.469 --> 00:02:07.310 a leader at a company and you're not getting into the weeds, that might 26 00:02:07.909 --> 00:02:12.069 be why you've actually chosen the first or last touch model. Can you give 27 00:02:12.069 --> 00:02:15.580 me an example of getting into the weeds? Yeah, let mean, look, 28 00:02:15.580 --> 00:02:20.180 I have a marketing office background. That's what's kind of unique about me 29 00:02:20.379 --> 00:02:23.900 than maybe other CMOS is they might not have that background right they might be 30 00:02:23.020 --> 00:02:28.340 on the brand side or the creative side. I've been in the thick of 31 00:02:28.419 --> 00:02:32.569 the data, building architectural models within some of the largest organizations in the world 32 00:02:34.009 --> 00:02:38.289 and doing that you get a feel for things that you just you don't think 33 00:02:38.330 --> 00:02:40.610 about. You know, a good example is, let's say you have a 34 00:02:40.689 --> 00:02:45.840 Bedr team and you have a cells team, B's, and then you have 35 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:50.759 a marketing team that that's that's doing their thing right. Well, a lot 36 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:57.960 of times the process with cells and the BEDR team is sometimes a handoff right, 37 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:04.069 and the BEDR teams doing very, very specific outreach that sometimes doesn't even 38 00:03:04.189 --> 00:03:07.750 get included in an attribution model. So a great example that I like to 39 00:03:07.870 --> 00:03:13.340 think about is, you know, a first touch and last touch wouldn't give 40 00:03:13.379 --> 00:03:17.620 a bedr any credit at all because marketing would hit at first and then a 41 00:03:17.659 --> 00:03:22.060 lot of models that I've seen it would go to the BEDR and then the 42 00:03:22.139 --> 00:03:24.819 bedr would do their thing to get it over to cells to have the final 43 00:03:24.939 --> 00:03:30.610 touch conversation before an opportunity is created. So a lot of first last touch 44 00:03:30.689 --> 00:03:37.610 models were completely discounting an entire team that has a pivotal part and generating cells. 45 00:03:38.009 --> 00:03:42.560 That's just a small model that's not even related to marketing, but more 46 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:47.599 so on the cell side. So if everyone's believing in first touch or last 47 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:52.800 touch, I'd like to talk about what is it that you're saying everyone should 48 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:57.430 be doing? I guess the part that I think that most people just don't 49 00:03:57.469 --> 00:04:00.590 spend the time in is diving deep in the data, so getting in the 50 00:04:00.669 --> 00:04:04.030 weeds enough to understand some of the middle touches. For example, I'll use 51 00:04:04.229 --> 00:04:08.590 I'll use gechu crowd as an example. Their big brand out there. There 52 00:04:08.590 --> 00:04:11.900 are a review site, right, and if you look at how buying behavior 53 00:04:11.979 --> 00:04:15.699 happens with software, a lot of folks will go to a software site like 54 00:04:15.900 --> 00:04:19.220 that to maybe search for software. So your website, mighty, might not 55 00:04:19.339 --> 00:04:24.019 even be the first touch. G Two crowd could be. But then also 56 00:04:24.180 --> 00:04:26.769 within their journey, then they're they're going to find out who you are, 57 00:04:27.089 --> 00:04:30.490 then they're going to go to your website, they're going to look at how 58 00:04:30.569 --> 00:04:33.170 you're presenting the material. They might download a piece of content. At that 59 00:04:33.370 --> 00:04:38.290 point, then you're in the funnel with that company. Okay, when you're 60 00:04:38.329 --> 00:04:41.199 in the funnel with that company, marketing might send out an email on their 61 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:44.720 chair based on the fact that you download a piece of content. And then 62 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:47.240 guess what might happen? Then a BDR might reach out to you, right, 63 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:51.720 and at that point you're you're in the thick of the journey. You've 64 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:58.029 already gotten four middle touches in at that point, right after the first touch. 65 00:04:58.829 --> 00:05:00.910 And then when when something comes in, all the way down through to 66 00:05:01.029 --> 00:05:06.069 last touch, where an opportunity is created at that point, is typically going 67 00:05:06.139 --> 00:05:10.579 to be all right. Well, they came to an event or maybe they 68 00:05:10.579 --> 00:05:15.620 came to a Webinar and or a fast track of an mql process, which 69 00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:20.100 is very, very traditional marketing. Then they might actually not even be in 70 00:05:20.220 --> 00:05:24.089 the pipeline at that point. Well, they're still going to be going back 71 00:05:24.129 --> 00:05:28.089 to you two crowd, they're going to be doing comparisons, they're going to 72 00:05:28.089 --> 00:05:31.290 be looking at your patators seeing how you compare with them. They might even 73 00:05:31.329 --> 00:05:35.079 be able to be downloading comparison of course. So just when you look at 74 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:40.720 it from the Lens of just like a review site, that's only one avenue. 75 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:45.600 Just at the Lens from a review site, you miss out on hundreds 76 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:48.800 of middle touches. I mean a great another great way to look at this 77 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:56.870 is if if you're familiar with how customer journeys work right and coming from the 78 00:05:56.949 --> 00:06:00.069 customer experience based. We did this all day long at my previous company and 79 00:06:01.230 --> 00:06:06.259 it's it's micro journeys within a bigger journey. The overall journey is to get 80 00:06:06.300 --> 00:06:11.220 them to know who you are, to get them to do something, to 81 00:06:11.339 --> 00:06:15.500 engage with your brand and then to get them to convert and buy from you. 82 00:06:15.899 --> 00:06:19.610 Right those three areas. But there's micro journeys in in there that we 83 00:06:19.730 --> 00:06:25.089 just forget about. And if we put ourselves in in a normal buyer shoes, 84 00:06:25.170 --> 00:06:28.649 how you might buy software, I mean, what really isn't what really 85 00:06:28.730 --> 00:06:32.120 is influencing your buying decision? It's not necessarily the first time you hit a 86 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:36.519 brand and that's not necessarily the last time you hit a brand. It's all 87 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:41.439 the stuff in between, and that's why I think middle is so important. 88 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:47.269 Hey, everybody logan with sweet fish year. You probably already know that we 89 00:06:47.470 --> 00:06:50.829 think you should start a podcast if you haven't already. But what if you 90 00:06:50.910 --> 00:06:56.589 have and you're asking these kinds of questions? How much has our podcast impacted 91 00:06:56.750 --> 00:07:00.310 revenue this year? How is our sales team actually leveraging the PODCAST content? 92 00:07:00.620 --> 00:07:04.899 If you can't answer these questions, you're actually not alone. This is why 93 00:07:05.060 --> 00:07:11.779 cast it created the very first content marketing platform made specifically for be Tob podcasting 94 00:07:12.339 --> 00:07:17.089 now you can more easily search and share your audio content while getting greater visibility 95 00:07:17.250 --> 00:07:23.569 into the impact of your podcast. The marketing teams at drift terminus and here 96 00:07:23.610 --> 00:07:28.209 at sweet fish have started using casted to get more value out of our podcasts, 97 00:07:28.410 --> 00:07:30.959 and you probably can to. You can check out the product in action 98 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:40.959 and casted dot US growth. That's sea steed dot US growth. All right, 99 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:46.149 let's get back to the show. So can you give me sort of 100 00:07:46.310 --> 00:07:51.110 an action guide or like a step by step for how to do attribution in 101 00:07:51.269 --> 00:07:56.149 this way? Yeah, so step by step. First things first, you 102 00:07:56.430 --> 00:08:00.459 need somebody who can be an expert with the data. So you either own 103 00:08:00.459 --> 00:08:03.300 it as a leader or find somebody who can own the data and articulated in 104 00:08:03.339 --> 00:08:09.019 a way that makes sense to you. Second that that that data leader needs 105 00:08:09.060 --> 00:08:13.730 to get involved with not just cells but other functions within the business so that 106 00:08:13.769 --> 00:08:16.209 they can make sure that the data that is existing within those make journeys is 107 00:08:16.290 --> 00:08:20.730 making sense to them as well. Okay. And then the third step is 108 00:08:22.449 --> 00:08:26.850 come to an agreement as a as an organization, on what the model is 109 00:08:26.930 --> 00:08:31.879 going to be. Build the back in architecture while you're having these conversations, 110 00:08:31.440 --> 00:08:35.120 and then agree as an organization on whether it's going to be first touch on 111 00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:41.320 last touch or whether it's going to be weighted attribution with middle touches. Doesn't 112 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:43.830 matter at all. Or you can do there's plenty of models. There's even 113 00:08:43.830 --> 00:08:48.669 an m model. Right we're a U model, which is its still counts 114 00:08:48.750 --> 00:08:52.110 some of the middle touches, but it might only count one middle touch, 115 00:08:52.830 --> 00:08:58.100 right, the most center middle touch. So that's the step that I would 116 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:01.139 take, is agree on which model is going to be beneficial, but also 117 00:09:01.259 --> 00:09:03.259 don't forget to bring the value of the middle touch. Just explain it in 118 00:09:03.299 --> 00:09:07.179 a way where they can make sense of it. It's why I always give 119 00:09:07.220 --> 00:09:11.610 the example of the BDR team, because every single organization that I've ever been 120 00:09:11.649 --> 00:09:15.090 at, and I've gone to the gone to the cells organization, been like 121 00:09:15.210 --> 00:09:18.090 look, I truly believe that we should try and try a middle touch model 122 00:09:18.289 --> 00:09:22.610 full attribution, and they're usually they're pushback. Is like now, it's too 123 00:09:22.690 --> 00:09:26.480 complicated. I don't want to get into that. But then I said then 124 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:28.080 I saw them. You know, if I was able to show you through 125 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:33.120 data how your Bedr team as impacting your r the revenue that we're having today, 126 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:37.320 and I'm not talking about just spooked meetings and talking about closed revenue and 127 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:43.990 the specific conversations that they're having and sequences that they're having with an outreach and 128 00:09:43.029 --> 00:09:46.230 all the other tools that they use. Wouldn't that be valuable? Wouldn't you 129 00:09:46.230 --> 00:09:50.230 want to know exactly what's working so that you can rings and repeat every single 130 00:09:50.309 --> 00:09:54.899 time the sales leaders get on board? So you got to put it in 131 00:09:54.019 --> 00:09:58.340 layman terms for them so that they could actually grasp it and understand it from 132 00:09:58.340 --> 00:10:03.539 their perspective. And why exactly do you think companies aren't doing it this way? 133 00:10:03.379 --> 00:10:07.370 It's hard to do. It is very hard to do. I've done 134 00:10:07.370 --> 00:10:13.409 this for now probably fifteen different companies in my career, and that's through consulting 135 00:10:13.409 --> 00:10:18.370 in other areas and when you start getting into the weeds and seeing how complex 136 00:10:18.409 --> 00:10:22.759 and how many channels you have, I mean at one company we had fifty 137 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:26.879 two different channels that we could execute it. And guess what, a podcast 138 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:28.720 it's one of them. I'm going to ask you this question, man. 139 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:33.360 Yeah, you said being asked questions, but I'm going to ask you one 140 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.549 please. A podcast would fit in first and last touch and or just attribution 141 00:10:37.669 --> 00:10:41.470 in general. Where do you think it would fit? Well, are we 142 00:10:41.549 --> 00:10:46.590 talking about a listener or a guest? Let's say both can be a cussid 143 00:10:46.629 --> 00:10:52.059 and eventual customer. Man, I feel put on the spot. That's okay. 144 00:10:52.100 --> 00:10:56.500 Well, this is like it's almost always going to be a middle touch, 145 00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:03.940 right, because they have to know sweet phish media before they listen to 146 00:11:03.980 --> 00:11:07.129 the podcast, wouldn't you agree? Yes, if they know sweet phish media, 147 00:11:07.610 --> 00:11:11.049 they're likely going to go to your website or they're going to see prior 148 00:11:11.090 --> 00:11:16.649 a social post. First touch. Listening to the PODCAST is not even a 149 00:11:16.649 --> 00:11:20.720 last touch. It's just a channel, right. And then post the podcast 150 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:24.480 after you're done recording and you send that out and you distribute it. It 151 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:31.000 then becomes a behemouth of content. But then people are downloading. So then 152 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:37.590 your blogs our channel, the websites that a channel. Chat might be a 153 00:11:37.669 --> 00:11:41.830 channel. So the breadth of what's happening from a digital marketing perspective. Like, 154 00:11:41.950 --> 00:11:45.190 I'm not going to say again, I'm not going to go against my 155 00:11:45.230 --> 00:11:48.059 own words here, but it's tough to make an argument the first touch and 156 00:11:48.139 --> 00:11:54.740 last touch is is worth doing because of how much exists in that Middle Hmm. 157 00:11:56.700 --> 00:12:01.889 So, for a head of marketing that's listening to this episode and episodes 158 00:12:01.929 --> 00:12:05.409 about to end, what is the thing that they need to do right now? 159 00:12:05.649 --> 00:12:11.090 Off Of what you're saying, I would say whiteboard and map out the 160 00:12:11.129 --> 00:12:15.049 journey of your customer. Honestly, to get on a white board and and 161 00:12:15.289 --> 00:12:18.600 literally pretend like you're in your customers shoes and how are you going to buy? 162 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.240 And every single time that you would engage in a piece of contents or 163 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:28.720 a digital avenue of the brand, mark it down and that is is a 164 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:33.389 touch point. And if that's a touch point, see how many middle touch 165 00:12:33.509 --> 00:12:39.909 points there are before first and last, in between there. See how many 166 00:12:39.909 --> 00:12:43.429 of there are and if there's more than five, you need to do a 167 00:12:43.629 --> 00:12:48.980 full attribution model and not first and last touch awesome, James. Listen, 168 00:12:48.019 --> 00:12:52.259 I really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing this wisdom with us. 169 00:12:52.580 --> 00:12:54.299 For someone who's listening that wants to connect with you, where should they go? 170 00:12:56.059 --> 00:12:58.649 Just find me on Linkedin. That's the easiest way. Yep, just 171 00:12:58.970 --> 00:13:03.250 just search James Gilbert. Thanks, James. You Bet appreciate it. Sing 172 00:13:07.169 --> 00:13:09.889 is the decisionmaker for your product or service, a BEDB MARKETER? Are you 173 00:13:11.009 --> 00:13:16.399 looking to reach those buyers through the medium of podcasting. Consider becoming a cohost 174 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.240 of BB growth. This show is consistently ranked as a top one hundred podcast 175 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:24.879 in the marketing category of Apple Podcasts, and the show gets more than a 176 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:30.149 hundred and thirtyzero downloads each month. We've already done the work of building the 177 00:13:30.230 --> 00:13:35.029 audience, so you can focus on delivering incredible content to our listeners. If 178 00:13:35.070 --> 00:13:37.429 you're interested, email logan at sweet fish Mediacom