1246: 3 Tips for Successfully Implementing OKRs w/ Jonathan Smalley

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:09.070 Welcome back to be to be growth on Logan lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:09.189 --> 00:00:13.869 Today I'm joined by Jonathan Smalley. He's the founder over at Yagura. Jonathan, 3 00:00:13.990 --> 00:00:16.670 welcome to the show. How's it going today? Man, it's going 4 00:00:16.789 --> 00:00:20.750 great. Thanks so much for having me. Absolutely man, we're actually I 5 00:00:20.910 --> 00:00:25.260 love interviewing people here in Colorado, but you're not in Colorado today, so 6 00:00:25.300 --> 00:00:29.699 I'm doing my normal thing, interviewing guests across time zones. But either way, 7 00:00:29.859 --> 00:00:32.299 thank you for making time for the episode. Today we're going to be 8 00:00:32.380 --> 00:00:36.890 talking about empowering your team with Ok ours, ways that you can do it 9 00:00:37.009 --> 00:00:40.250 effectively, ways that you can do goal setting to avoid some of the pitfalls 10 00:00:40.490 --> 00:00:43.210 that you and I were just riffing on that we've seen in our own teams. 11 00:00:43.450 --> 00:00:45.969 Before we get into that, give listeners a little bit of context. 12 00:00:46.049 --> 00:00:48.329 Men, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you and the team 13 00:00:48.329 --> 00:00:51.520 are up to these days. Yeah, absolutely so. Yeah, as you 14 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:55.119 said, we're yeah, WARA is is based in Denver, with a small 15 00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:58.439 office in New York, which is where I'm talking to you from right now, 16 00:00:59.039 --> 00:01:03.960 and Yaguara is a software platform that does kind of exactly what we're going 17 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:07.349 to talk about today. It helps teams use their data better in order to 18 00:01:07.549 --> 00:01:11.269 hit their goals, and we're what we think about is a connected operations platform, 19 00:01:11.310 --> 00:01:15.189 and so for us that means having the right data in the right place, 20 00:01:15.189 --> 00:01:19.700 kind of applying the right business context to it, which a lot of 21 00:01:19.900 --> 00:01:23.019 a big part of that is okay, ours. And the last piece of 22 00:01:23.099 --> 00:01:29.019 that is our intelligence layer, giving people that insights and recommendations based on what 23 00:01:29.180 --> 00:01:33.650 they tell our technology they're trying to achieve, so that our technology can then 24 00:01:33.689 --> 00:01:36.650 spit out, you know, those good insights recommendation so they can make better 25 00:01:36.689 --> 00:01:40.209 decisions faster. You know, coming up on the end of q one, 26 00:01:40.290 --> 00:01:44.370 so everybody is probably in that mindset of the New Year's resolutions, of all 27 00:01:44.409 --> 00:01:47.719 their personal productivity or kind of out the window, or like they're on a 28 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:51.359 version five by now, but getting ready for maybe that quarterly. Ok, 29 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:53.400 our session. So it's probably going to be pretty timely for folks. So 30 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:59.120 let's kick off the conversation with this saying that you guys repeat around your your 31 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:00.510 team a lot. You mentioned to me. I was just thought, man, 32 00:02:00.590 --> 00:02:04.510 that that sums it up really well. When you approach any sort of 33 00:02:05.150 --> 00:02:09.949 results system or goal setting framework, and that's this framework over dogma. UNPACK 34 00:02:10.069 --> 00:02:13.909 that statement for us a little bit and tell us how you guys apply it 35 00:02:13.990 --> 00:02:16.620 on your team. Yeah, I mean I think it's really easy, you 36 00:02:16.699 --> 00:02:20.819 know, kind of to try to go from zero to sixty in anything you 37 00:02:20.900 --> 00:02:23.500 do. You know, like whether it's starting to like work out, you 38 00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:27.620 try to go every day, which maybe isn't sustainable, or you start trying 39 00:02:27.620 --> 00:02:32.210 to measure a million different metrics or you try to like perfectly cascade your okres 40 00:02:32.289 --> 00:02:36.849 exactly as you know, John Dor might subscribe. You know, I think 41 00:02:36.930 --> 00:02:39.770 for us it really just is that idea of framework over dogma, of you 42 00:02:39.849 --> 00:02:46.960 know, applying some methodology to goal setting so that we're measuring the things that, 43 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:50.280 going back to like the title Genres Book, they were measuring things that 44 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:54.719 really matter and we're measuring a reasonable number of those things and and so like. 45 00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:59.590 I think a really obvious example of that is when we first started, 46 00:02:59.629 --> 00:03:02.069 yeah, Guara, and we were first helping companies like set goals. They 47 00:03:02.110 --> 00:03:06.669 would go from you know, maybe they would go into a dashboard of doom 48 00:03:06.669 --> 00:03:09.030 analytics or shopified net suite or you know, whatever the tool might be, 49 00:03:09.590 --> 00:03:14.219 every quarter and look at something retroactively, and so they go from that and 50 00:03:14.300 --> 00:03:16.860 all of a sudden they're gonna have this ability to see live data and they're 51 00:03:16.900 --> 00:03:20.900 like, you know, holy cow, we want to measure like a hundred 52 00:03:20.939 --> 00:03:23.900 and fifty different things, and they apply, you know, forty different objectives 53 00:03:24.020 --> 00:03:29.009 with five key results each, and it's just like, and that's again, 54 00:03:29.050 --> 00:03:30.889 a six person team, or maybe it's even at a fifty person team, 55 00:03:31.250 --> 00:03:35.250 and all of a sudden each person is being, you know, each person 56 00:03:35.370 --> 00:03:38.449 is being measured against and managed to like eight, two, twenty four different 57 00:03:38.490 --> 00:03:42.840 things in an ongoing basis. And what we found, you know, not 58 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:45.680 only through inter real data, but it's in a lot of data, like 59 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:49.599 there's only so many things that people can be measured too and and like at 60 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:52.120 the same time, like, well, that's true. Businesses are so, 61 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:54.830 like, especially times like now, incredibly dynamic, and so it's not just 62 00:03:55.069 --> 00:03:59.270 that, like, you can only set, you know, things in a 63 00:03:59.389 --> 00:04:03.590 cascading manner, or or that you can only set goals on qualitative or on 64 00:04:03.629 --> 00:04:09.229 quantitative data, but like, you should be setting goals on the things that 65 00:04:09.270 --> 00:04:12.419 are meaningful to your business, no matter what those might be, and so 66 00:04:13.020 --> 00:04:15.540 I think that means, for us like being dynamic when we work with with 67 00:04:15.740 --> 00:04:21.459 different customer types and I and just like really becoming experts in what our customers 68 00:04:21.500 --> 00:04:27.250 are are looking to deliver value to their end users in I like what you're 69 00:04:27.250 --> 00:04:30.449 saying. They're about you using data, but using it intelligently, not not 70 00:04:30.730 --> 00:04:36.089 trying to measure everything that matters right. It reminds me of a conversation I 71 00:04:36.209 --> 00:04:40.519 had on this show just last week with James Lawrence and we were talking specifically 72 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:45.879 about marketing and about being data driven and how to the points where you want 73 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.519 to apply data and measurement, like yes, really hone in on those and 74 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:53.709 figure out what you can measure that that matters, but realize that some things 75 00:04:53.790 --> 00:04:57.110 they're always going to be somewhat qualitative, like you know, maybe it's your 76 00:04:57.189 --> 00:05:00.269 podcast or other top of the funnel stuff. There are going to be things 77 00:05:00.350 --> 00:05:03.189 that trying to measure that by gating every single piece of content or something, 78 00:05:03.389 --> 00:05:06.379 you're actually going to do yourself a disservice, and I think you know that's 79 00:05:06.379 --> 00:05:11.060 kind of data applied to marketing. When it comes to running teams, same 80 00:05:11.100 --> 00:05:14.060 sort of thing here. What are the things that you can drill on that 81 00:05:14.420 --> 00:05:16.459 do matter, but then what are the other things? That? It's just 82 00:05:16.579 --> 00:05:19.660 going to be too much work to try and measure those. It's going to 83 00:05:19.699 --> 00:05:23.170 be too much to try and enforce that. It's not going to have, 84 00:05:23.689 --> 00:05:26.529 you know, the right sort of feeling. The other thing, I know 85 00:05:26.689 --> 00:05:30.329 that that you and I were riffing on that a lot of people seem to 86 00:05:30.490 --> 00:05:33.129 encounter this pitfall is not getting into a regular cadence. They kind of have 87 00:05:33.370 --> 00:05:39.040 this like coming from a conference, raw raw out of their quarterly Ok ours 88 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:43.920 and and then they don't revisit those until later. And you know, the 89 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:47.319 for disciplines of execution, or DX, is a similar model to goal setting. 90 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:53.709 Is Ok ours and that book talks about we're really good at seeing the 91 00:05:53.829 --> 00:05:57.670 lag measures. How did we do this past quarter versus looking at the leading 92 00:05:57.670 --> 00:06:00.949 indicators? What's your advice, Jonathan, for folks on looking at those leading 93 00:06:00.990 --> 00:06:06.459 indicators and creating that cadence of accountability, that cadence of review? That's just 94 00:06:06.620 --> 00:06:11.379 as important as those big moments of review, quarterly or whatever the case is. 95 00:06:11.379 --> 00:06:14.339 Right. Yeah, I mean, I think going back to the first 96 00:06:14.339 --> 00:06:17.540 thing that we talked about, is is focused finding leading indicators. It's, 97 00:06:17.930 --> 00:06:21.610 you know, an incredibly important driver of any business. And the best way 98 00:06:21.649 --> 00:06:25.730 to do that, I mean getting down, it's like we get really darky 99 00:06:25.769 --> 00:06:30.129 into how, like data structured and like different SCHEMAS can allow you to to 100 00:06:30.810 --> 00:06:32.439 like learn more quickly and readily from data. And so I think all that 101 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:36.720 comes to like how do we have really clear focus on what our success metrics 102 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:43.240 are like, what are liking indicators, defining those really well and then finding 103 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:46.230 a way to create that, you know, regular cadence and check in on 104 00:06:46.350 --> 00:06:49.149 those. And I think like that's really what we built. Yeah, we 105 00:06:49.230 --> 00:06:54.870 are around was this idea of, you know, setting goals is great, 106 00:06:55.470 --> 00:06:58.269 but it's not very effective. I feeling, look in them every quart as 107 00:06:58.310 --> 00:07:00.819 you just said, and and that's why we believe like the best way to 108 00:07:00.860 --> 00:07:05.339 do that is to have automatically updating goals and whether that's Jenny, yeah, 109 00:07:05.500 --> 00:07:11.420 are not finding a way to have a regular, I'd say minimum weekly cadence. 110 00:07:11.860 --> 00:07:15.300 I'd say a lot of people would drive down into like hourly. And 111 00:07:15.339 --> 00:07:19.329 it goes back to like are there certain levels of of granularity that show more 112 00:07:19.370 --> 00:07:24.810 signal than noise? I think each business is really different there and you might 113 00:07:24.889 --> 00:07:30.680 find like where certain companies have seasonality other companies have essentially like trends, based 114 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:33.519 on trends, based on whether trends based on the time of day when people 115 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:39.720 buy. And so I think, again taking to like framework over dogmas, 116 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:43.199 it's important to find the CAIDENCE that works for Your Business, find a way 117 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:48.110 to automate measuring those really really important, you know, success metrics, and 118 00:07:48.350 --> 00:07:51.709 then on each of those on a regular kidings, then you really have the 119 00:07:51.750 --> 00:07:57.069 ability to actually dive into what the leading indicators might be. Because you can 120 00:07:57.110 --> 00:08:01.540 see, we've talked a lot about like trends over fidelity. Data fidelities is 121 00:08:01.579 --> 00:08:07.180 less important than understanding like really specific, you know, data trends and understanding 122 00:08:07.220 --> 00:08:09.980 how business, how data across your business is, impact each other. I 123 00:08:11.060 --> 00:08:16.930 think a really good example of that is kind of time about what you're saying 124 00:08:16.930 --> 00:08:20.889 earlier with with marketing data, is it's really easy to look at optimizing inside 125 00:08:20.930 --> 00:08:24.970 of a box around something like cost per click or, you know, costper 126 00:08:24.370 --> 00:08:28.399 transaction or something like that. What what people have, I think, if 127 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:31.639 for a lot of our customers have found over the past few years, is 128 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:37.679 it when you just optimize without understanding what's the end goal of probably like acquiring 129 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:43.549 high value customers that just optimizing with marketing data means you're optimizing for not a 130 00:08:43.590 --> 00:08:46.870 very good customer, because it's someone who's going to buy very quickly and they're 131 00:08:46.909 --> 00:08:48.590 probably going to buy the cheapest thing in your site and so it doesn't cost 132 00:08:48.590 --> 00:08:52.269 much to get them there. But when you have like the right North Star 133 00:08:52.870 --> 00:08:56.019 of saying, like day, the most important thing for us is to acquire 134 00:08:56.139 --> 00:09:00.899 customer who looks like this, maybe they buy specific products, maybe they have 135 00:09:01.259 --> 00:09:05.419 a certain number of what we'd say upt units per transaction, then we can 136 00:09:05.460 --> 00:09:07.899 start looking at leading indicators and saying, Hey, we're actually acquiring the best 137 00:09:07.980 --> 00:09:11.970 customers really efficiently, maybe not the cheapest, but the most efficiently, because 138 00:09:13.090 --> 00:09:18.250 we know what that North Star metric really is. Hey, everybody, logan 139 00:09:18.330 --> 00:09:22.330 with sweet fish here. You probably already know that we think you should start 140 00:09:22.370 --> 00:09:24.840 a podcast if you haven't already. But what if you have and you're asking 141 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:30.440 these kinds of questions? 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All right, 150 00:10:13.009 --> 00:10:20.529 let's get back to the show, and there's so much goodness in what you 151 00:10:20.690 --> 00:10:22.840 just said there. I love what you said. One of the things I 152 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:26.440 wrote down as I was just taking notes as you were talking with signal versus 153 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:31.320 noise. We can have tons of data, we can have data coming out 154 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:35.039 of our ears, but that was really poignant to me. Thinking about what 155 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:37.870 is a signal, what's identifying a trend and what's just noise? What are 156 00:10:37.950 --> 00:10:41.710 some of the things that that you guys recommend to your customers as they start 157 00:10:41.830 --> 00:10:48.149 to do more goal setting, build out their own specific frameworks to identify are 158 00:10:48.230 --> 00:10:52.620 we measuring this and it's just noise, or re measuring this and it's actually 159 00:10:52.620 --> 00:10:54.779 a really good signal for us to act on? Yeah, it's really it's 160 00:10:54.779 --> 00:10:58.419 a really good question. I think it's something that we often boiled down into 161 00:10:58.620 --> 00:11:03.259 what we called data utility. You know, we were talking about this little 162 00:11:03.259 --> 00:11:07.570 bit before we got started. A like kind of this like promise fifteen years 163 00:11:07.570 --> 00:11:09.649 ago. Was this like idea that like big data, whatever, that that 164 00:11:09.809 --> 00:11:13.049 means, what's going to like answer all of our questions, and so I 165 00:11:13.090 --> 00:11:16.490 think people spent, you know, an awful lot of time and money piping 166 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:20.960 data from one place and then realizing like holy cow, we have no data 167 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.960 utility. Like the person in the person in marketing who are asking to acquire 168 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:28.960 a thousand customers inside of a certain budget, actually doesn't really know, have 169 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:35.190 is really informed by anything outside of what they're directly seeing through the platforms are 170 00:11:35.230 --> 00:11:39.070 executing in. And so I think the thing for us again is like what's 171 00:11:39.149 --> 00:11:43.990 the lowest common and dominator to kind of get real data utility? And so 172 00:11:43.190 --> 00:11:46.139 for us I think we think about kind of like three different things, the 173 00:11:46.299 --> 00:11:52.779 first being like data unification and aggregation. So that means like having obviously day 174 00:11:52.779 --> 00:11:56.340 different across the business in one place and then and then being unified. The 175 00:11:56.620 --> 00:12:00.580 idea of kind of like a market that's come to exist over the last eight 176 00:12:00.620 --> 00:12:03.610 or so years, is like a customer data platform, like how is there 177 00:12:03.610 --> 00:12:07.570 a way to aggregate all the data that informs what a customer truly is? 178 00:12:07.610 --> 00:12:11.129 How do we have all of that one place? And then, too, 179 00:12:11.169 --> 00:12:13.730 I think it's going back to the last two points. Has What is the 180 00:12:13.809 --> 00:12:20.720 actual business contact to to that data? It's great to see a bar chart, 181 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:22.759 it's really cool to see, you know, a stacked line graph, 182 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:26.639 but without the context of what that means to the business, it's incredibly, 183 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:31.629 incredibly difficult to pull any fail utility out of it. And and so you 184 00:12:31.710 --> 00:12:37.029 know it's in context. Is Not just that you understand what you're trying to 185 00:12:37.070 --> 00:12:39.309 achieve with it, but as also in the hands of the right person, 186 00:12:39.309 --> 00:12:45.139 and we think, with the right aggregated unified data, with the right context. 187 00:12:45.379 --> 00:12:46.340 What is this person? You know, is in the hands of the 188 00:12:46.379 --> 00:12:50.179 right person? Do they understand what they're trying to accomplish? Then that goes 189 00:12:50.299 --> 00:12:56.539 from like siload or desperate data then into, you know, like real data, 190 00:12:56.580 --> 00:13:01.610 utility, data that can be utilized to make really meaningful business decisions. 191 00:13:01.690 --> 00:13:03.809 And you know, for for us, part of the reason we're having these 192 00:13:03.850 --> 00:13:07.730 conversations. We think that goals are a great way of doing that. It's 193 00:13:07.929 --> 00:13:13.840 it's a great way of, I think, not only empowering users, are 194 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:18.759 customers, with data, but also helping them understand on the softer side, 195 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:22.480 like where do I fit into the organization? What's the impact that I could 196 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:26.679 have? And and that's, I think, like one of the other things 197 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:30.830 that we think about more broadly is, you know, really like how do 198 00:13:30.909 --> 00:13:33.669 we help work feel? This is another thing I say at the Office of 199 00:13:33.710 --> 00:13:35.110 the time. The People Make Fun of me for U is, like, 200 00:13:35.149 --> 00:13:39.990 how does work become meaningful and not menial? And I think when we have 201 00:13:39.110 --> 00:13:43.539 these long checklist that are viguously tied to like a load of data that will 202 00:13:43.580 --> 00:13:48.100 look at once the quarter, it's easy for work to feel a little overwhelming, 203 00:13:48.139 --> 00:13:50.700 it a little menial. But when we have the right data and the 204 00:13:50.820 --> 00:13:54.379 right context to the right person, they're not only empowered but they can also 205 00:13:54.379 --> 00:14:00.690 feel impactful, and that's where we believe that kind of an army of empowered 206 00:14:00.769 --> 00:14:05.129 and impactful people is what creates the best organization. Yeah, absolutely. I 207 00:14:05.210 --> 00:14:09.929 mean we have a whole show dedicated to crafting culture because we believe that, 208 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:13.559 you know, as the old saying goes, culture eat strategy. For Breakfast 209 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.360 and when people are empowered, it's going to Lee take the steps for the 210 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:20.720 for the right culture. Speaking on that for a second, Jonathan, talking 211 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:24.309 about the way people feel about the way they're being measured, the way they 212 00:14:24.389 --> 00:14:30.549 feel about what they're contributing. Are there's some dos and don'ts or any advice 213 00:14:30.669 --> 00:14:33.350 that you give to folks as they set up that cadence of a review and 214 00:14:33.350 --> 00:14:37.029 accountability on their goals, their progress, setting up those dashboards, doing it 215 00:14:37.190 --> 00:14:41.659 in a way that does empower folks as opposed to feeling like all this is 216 00:14:41.659 --> 00:14:46.139 a burden. Okay, this new framework is coming down on top of you. 217 00:14:46.259 --> 00:14:50.899 Any suggestions in rolling out any sort of goal setting system, whether it's 218 00:14:50.899 --> 00:14:56.450 a new platform or just a framework that they're testing kind of offline as we 219 00:14:56.570 --> 00:15:01.169 wrap the conversation, they're just any final thoughts on practical application that you want 220 00:15:01.169 --> 00:15:03.450 to leave folks with today? Yeah, I think the two biggest things I 221 00:15:03.889 --> 00:15:09.120 think about our like establishing it in like an iterative nature, starts small and 222 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:13.279 go from there. You know, you can always it's easy to add more 223 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:16.960 things, but if you try to again, you try to manage to a 224 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:20.159 hundred things, it's going to be really hard to do. So don't be 225 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:22.070 afraid to start with a few metrics and then go from there. The other 226 00:15:22.149 --> 00:15:26.830 thing I think is really important if you are management and there can be the 227 00:15:26.950 --> 00:15:31.590 perception of coming down on high with with goals, is as much as you 228 00:15:31.669 --> 00:15:33.629 can, and we certainly haven't. I certainly hadn't always. Donne the best 229 00:15:33.629 --> 00:15:37.700 job of this is involved the team as much as possible in that planning process, 230 00:15:37.779 --> 00:15:43.179 certainly for their goals, but then to the high level of the company 231 00:15:43.179 --> 00:15:48.379 as well. The more that you can involve a whole organization in the planning 232 00:15:48.460 --> 00:15:52.649 process, obviously you have to work inside of like realistic and the gistical constraints, 233 00:15:52.370 --> 00:15:58.169 but the more that people can be part of agreeing to what they're going 234 00:15:58.169 --> 00:16:00.169 to be held accountable against, not only the better what they feel about it, 235 00:16:00.210 --> 00:16:03.009 but the more excited they'll be, and I think we've really seen that 236 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:08.639 when we've involved people in that. People like people want to accomplish dig and 237 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:12.399 audacious things and if you allow them to be part of that planning process, 238 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:18.000 I think a lot of managers and leaders would be pleasantly surprised to see, 239 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.350 you know, how different individual contributors are. Maybe a little bit more aggressive, 240 00:16:22.549 --> 00:16:26.509 but e'spect yeah, absolutely, man. I agree with so much you've 241 00:16:26.509 --> 00:16:29.509 been sharing today, Jonathan. You know, to wrap things up a little 242 00:16:29.509 --> 00:16:30.830 bit for listeners, talked about, you know, when you look at the 243 00:16:30.870 --> 00:16:34.019 date and and what you're trying to measure, look for ways that you can 244 00:16:34.100 --> 00:16:38.100 unify that data, look for ways that you can aggregate it and give give 245 00:16:38.139 --> 00:16:41.299 a window into that too. More people on the team, not sticks out 246 00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:45.139 of your two hundred that have access to the data that's behind the walls. 247 00:16:45.340 --> 00:16:48.490 And make sure you put the proper context to it. As you're rolling out 248 00:16:48.610 --> 00:16:52.490 any sort of goal setting program or system, make sure that you iterate. 249 00:16:52.570 --> 00:16:56.049 You start small. I can echo this and the sweet fish team last year 250 00:16:56.570 --> 00:17:00.289 you and I were talking a little bit offline, Jonathan. We we tried 251 00:17:00.289 --> 00:17:03.960 to implementing for disciplines of execution. I think we probably fell into that dogma 252 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:07.319 over framework a little bit and you know, right now we're rolling out, 253 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.119 okay, ours to our leadership team before we start using the method to our 254 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:15.279 whole teams. Who are, you know, doing that iterate piece and then 255 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.710 involving the team in that next phase of roll out. One thing I will 256 00:17:18.750 --> 00:17:22.109 say that we've been trying to do to keep that framework over Dogma is. 257 00:17:22.390 --> 00:17:25.750 You know, we've spent a lot of time in our leadership off site setting 258 00:17:25.750 --> 00:17:30.619 our annual objectives and we've also, I think it was James, our founder, 259 00:17:30.700 --> 00:17:33.779 was looking at man are really, really like the language around four by 260 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:37.700 four, four goals in four weeks, and almost using that language to replace 261 00:17:37.740 --> 00:17:41.140 key results. So we might have os and four by fours, but who 262 00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:44.490 cares? If it works for us, it will work for us. So 263 00:17:44.970 --> 00:17:48.289 I can just see the realities of the things that you're saying, in the 264 00:17:48.329 --> 00:17:49.769 advice that you're given, in some of the things that we're going through. 265 00:17:49.970 --> 00:17:52.970 So, Jonathan, if anybody listening to this has gotten some value like I 266 00:17:53.089 --> 00:17:56.009 have, what's the best way for them to reach out, stay connected with 267 00:17:56.130 --> 00:17:59.640 you or follow up with you and your team? Man. Yeah, you 268 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:03.680 can always share your sad at Yaguara Dot Coe. You can reach out to 269 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:08.599 me directly, Jonathan, at Yaguar Doco and yeah, always, always happy 270 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:11.359 to chat. We have lots of different ways on our site. You get 271 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:15.069 a hold of me or or anyone else on the team, you can chat 272 00:18:15.230 --> 00:18:19.470 with us in real time. I am often the person responding through our live 273 00:18:19.589 --> 00:18:23.150 chats, so we're always easy as talk to, you and me both. 274 00:18:23.190 --> 00:18:26.750 Man, I love it. Jonathan, thank you so much for joining me 275 00:18:26.789 --> 00:18:29.099 on the show today. Yeah, thanks, and let's really enjoyed it. 276 00:18:30.220 --> 00:18:34.619 I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners for reviews, but I get 277 00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:38.299 why they do it, because reviews are enormously helpful when you're trying to grow 278 00:18:38.339 --> 00:18:41.730 a podcast audience. So here's what we decided to do. If you leave 279 00:18:41.769 --> 00:18:45.730 a review for be tob growth and apple podcasts and email me a screenshot of 280 00:18:45.769 --> 00:18:51.089 the review to James At sweetfish Mediacom, I'll send you a signed copy of 281 00:18:51.130 --> 00:18:53.890 my new book, content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you 282 00:18:53.970 --> 00:18:56.799 want to know. We get a review, you get a free book. 283 00:18:57.160 --> 00:18:57.759 We both win.