The 4 Pillars of Thought Leadership Your SME's Must Have

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.600 Today on B two B growth, we are sharing a featured conversation from our 2 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:08.519 archive, with over two thousand episodes released. We want to resurface episodes worth 3 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:12.039 another listen. Before we jump in, I just want to say I would 4 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:14.919 love to connect and hear from you on Linkedin. You can search Benji, 5 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:18.199 walk over there and that's a great place to also interact with sweet fish and 6 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:23.039 B two B growth. All right, let's jump into today's featured conversation, 7 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:36.280 conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. 8 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:43.799 Welcome back to BTB growth. I'm Dan Sanchez, my friends call me Dan 9 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:47.920 Chaz, and I'm here with Ashley Faz who is the content strategy lead at 10 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:50.960 at last seen. Ashley, welcome to the show. Hey, good to 11 00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:55.079 be here. So today we are diving into thought leadership again, because that 12 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:58.479 is the series that we're on. That's the deep dive we're doing in the 13 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:02.600 month of June. If you're just jumping into this episode, maybe it's your 14 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:06.480 first time listening, but we like to do a deep dive every other month 15 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:11.239 and this time I was especially excited about doing thought leadership. It's a topic 16 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:15.439 that I got into probably just a year ago and I've been reading everything I 17 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:19.799 can about it. I've almost read every book and now I'm excited to talk 18 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:22.280 to all the practitioners out there, that people who get to do this for 19 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:26.680 a living, whether they're authors or people like Ashley who are in the thick 20 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:32.400 of it at Lastie and creating thought leadership content day in, day out orchestrating 21 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:36.680 the programs. So I have some very exciting things that I've was just talking 22 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:40.079 to Ashley about and kind of the pre call era area of this show in 23 00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:44.439 order to kick off today's episode. But before we do actually, I'd love 24 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:47.640 to know a little bit more about how you got into thought leadership, like 25 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:51.680 how did your journey evolve in marketing to land in a place where you're coming 26 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:57.040 up with thought leadership content all the time? Yeah, so I started and 27 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:00.000 have have had a number of kind of marketing Jo real list roles at a 28 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:05.000 bunch of small companies, and so because of that I've been tasked with creating 29 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:07.439 a variety of different types of content. I've been kind of the voice of 30 00:02:07.520 --> 00:02:12.759 the day to day person behind a CEO's twitter account and a company twitter account 31 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:16.400 and a variety of executive twitter accounts for example, Um thinking about how do 32 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:20.680 we market books from these people? Okay, how do we translate that and 33 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.319 make a connection between a product or service and the thought leadership? Well, 34 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:28.439 that's a lot easier to do if I'm also close to the thought leadership content 35 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:34.719 and kind of the original ideas that fueled those seminal works. So I ended 36 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:37.879 up in it more out of a necessity that, hey, I'm doing a 37 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:40.800 lot of these fragmented pieces. So how do I bring all those pieces together 38 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:46.360 into a cohesive program and a cohesive strategy? And was there something about thought 39 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:50.719 leadership content I drew you into making that kind of content? There's lots of 40 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:54.840 different types of content that can be made right. There's customer stories, there's 41 00:02:55.520 --> 00:03:00.680 asking prospectives, buyers questions and answering them right. There's up with related categories 42 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:04.439 that your customers like to hear about, you know. So how was thought 43 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:08.000 leadership the thing that kicked it off so early? Early, even when I 44 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:12.759 was getting my undergraduate degree, I was like I never want to sell anything 45 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:15.879 to anybody, and that sounds counterintuitive for a marketer, right. Like I 46 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:19.639 think as a marketer or my job is to match problems and solutions, not 47 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:21.960 to sell you something that you don't need. So if I don't have a 48 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.360 solution for you, then I should not trick you into buying something. And 49 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:29.159 so when you look at a lot of fault leadership content, Um and you 50 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:32.759 think about this, you know how how that works. It's really about building 51 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:38.960 relationships and building trust, and so that dovetails really nicely with kind of my 52 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:40.680 values of I don't want to sell anything to anybody. Now, yes, 53 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:46.159 there are often products stories or service stories or company stories that get included in 54 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:51.319 those things. But when you think about teaching people and empowering people to solve 55 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:54.680 problems, the type of content that that tends to be generally as more thought 56 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:59.560 leadership content versus, you know, sales enablement or a case study from a 57 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:02.400 specific a customer or something like that. It's interesting. I can almost go 58 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:06.520 into a whole another topic around why you don't want to sell anything. I'm 59 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:10.120 like, oh my gosh, did she just say that out loud on a 60 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:13.960 marketing podcast? I don't know if you're allowed to say it. That's all 61 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:18.079 another episode, but I kind of get it. Like thought leadership content often 62 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:23.319 doesn't sell and shouldn't sell. It's definitely on the branding side, trying to 63 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:27.279 create a perception of the company right, usually to create, you know, 64 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:30.920 demand, to try to get people interested in who you are and your thoughts 65 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:33.720 right. That lead to sales eventually, which is a big part of setting 66 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:38.000 up the sale. So we're still driving back to sales, even if you 67 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:41.160 don't like to make it yourself. But I don't know, maybe maybe you 68 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:44.600 should that. I don't know. Well, and it's it's interesting. I 69 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:47.519 mean I think that buyers are so much smarter these days and they can do 70 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:54.560 so much more of their research without marketers kind of jumping in and trying to 71 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:58.279 tackle them. And so if you put the content out there, you make 72 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:02.120 it available and you you treat audience as if they're intelligent, that's gonna that's 73 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:04.920 gonna increase your sales cycle by the time they finally raise their hand and say 74 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:09.240 hey, I'm actually reading you by Um, that's going to close your sales 75 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:11.680 a lot faster, it's going to give you a better retention, all those 76 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:15.199 things. So again, if you actually did the statement, it's maybe not 77 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:18.120 as controversial. Do you want to do mark you want to do marketing so 78 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:21.639 good that people are just like take my money right, you don't have to 79 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:26.480 convince some of anything. They're just like just please, help me, like 80 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:30.120 I want you with me way more than I want this money right now. 81 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:32.839 Exactly. That's IT, exactly. It's still always get sales too. I 82 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:36.560 think good sales people would say the same thing, that they're there are servants 83 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:41.879 helping them and if they happen to you know, if it happens to be 84 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:44.199 a good fit, then they're just gonna say like well, yeah, let's 85 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:48.279 move forward right. So I think it's a good marketing sales principle. So 86 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:54.560 when you're setting up thought leadership content, who do you usually like to build 87 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:57.199 thought leadership around? Do you like to build it around a logo? Do 88 00:05:57.240 --> 00:06:00.079 you like to build around a person? If if a person, who in 89 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:04.120 the company do you like to position as the thought leader? Yeah, so 90 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:09.240 I think my kind of hot take on this is that actually a lot of 91 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:13.199 people focus on the C suite or exacts or founders, and in a lot 92 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:16.519 of cases I would argue that those people are actually pretty terrible thought leaders for 93 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:23.360 a couple of reasons. They don't have time to do actual work in terms 94 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:27.199 of the innovation and codifying it and sharing it and making it repeatable, and 95 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:30.639 then they also don't have time to share that work. So I have kind 96 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.879 of a thought leadership framework. It's got four pillars. Credibility, build a 97 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:41.560 profile, be prolific, and depth of ideas and CEOS and kind of exacts 98 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:46.759 and founders. The thing that they tend to have is basically just a fancy 99 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.199 title, and so in some cases like Oh, you're credible because you have 100 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:54.439 a fancy title, but if you look at the recent edlement trust barometer you 101 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:59.160 see that actually CEOS are some of the most untrusted people and, like spokespeople 102 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:00.360 in general, be ation' is like, well, of course you would say 103 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:03.519 that. You're literally the CEO of the company, like you're paid to say 104 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:08.040 that. And so even if it's something that doesn't directly sell, there's still 105 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:12.319 this perception that they're not trustworthy and maybe they're not as credible. Right. 106 00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:15.639 And then, from a profile standpoint, you know they're off running the company. 107 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:18.040 They don't really have time to go out and speak or write or beyond 108 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:23.079 social media. From a depth of ideas standpoint, they're not particularly close to 109 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:27.000 the work Um. They're getting pitched ideas all day every day. They're doing 110 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.600 budget allocations, they're having to go defend things to the board, they're not 111 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:33.759 actually close to the work and kind of what's changing on the forefront. And 112 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:38.160 then in terms of obviously, you know, being prolific and building a profile, 113 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:42.480 like those things go hand in hand. You can't you can't get followers, 114 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:46.040 which would make you a leader, if you're not being prolific, you 115 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:49.399 know, and giving those followers something to consume. So I would say I 116 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:54.480 would probably focus more on kind of practitioners that are in that like ten to 117 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:59.120 fifteen years of experience. Um, I do think there's kind of two paths 118 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:01.279 to creating this to you can either build a person or you can build a 119 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:05.439 story, and I think those both have pros and cons to them. Um, 120 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:07.000 that we can talk about obviously as we as we dig into this. 121 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:11.360 I loved a lot of things you just said and I want to circle back 122 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:15.079 around to your your kind of four step process, but before I do, 123 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:18.160 I just want to concur that I've I've interviewed a lot of marketers for this 124 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:22.319 show, some of which are CEOS, and I do find that CEOS are 125 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.839 kind of disconnected from the work, even if they were marketers at one point, 126 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:28.920 they're just not in it anymore. Some are. I've met that I'm 127 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:31.360 like wow, like, no, he's still got it, she's still got 128 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:37.279 it, but most of them are disconnected from the work and honestly promoting their 129 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.159 own company more than like the actual topic. Um. So actually don't take 130 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:43.759 request from CEOS for this show anymore. If they're if you still hear a 131 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:46.679 lot of CEOS, and it's usually because we're reaching out to them versus them 132 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:50.440 reaching out to us. Sorry if I offended any CEOS, but of course 133 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:52.200 this is a B two B marketing, so should we like to talk to 134 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.200 B Two B marketers? So I'm in agreement with you. I'm like, 135 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:58.879 I could see that, Um, and of course it makes sense if you're 136 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:01.399 like I think Chris Walker says this all the time, like he was in 137 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:05.639 medical text. So it doesn't make sense to set up the CEO selling to 138 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:09.559 doctors. He's not a doctor, so go find a doctor and make him 139 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.240 the face of the company, right, because that's who's going to trust. 140 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:16.559 Yeah, well, and again, if you think about that, it's funny 141 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:18.480 you say like doctors want to talk to doctors. That was literally one of 142 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.639 the categories in the trust parometer from Edelman was like I most trust someone like 143 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:28.240 myself, and it's like yes, that's why a practitioner with ten, fifteen 144 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:33.200 years of experience like you know, Dan, I've between us we probably heard 145 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:35.799 about the same stage of our career. We're probably have you done similar types 146 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:39.759 of work? I trust you. You Trust me, because it's like I 147 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:41.879 yes, I see that she's doing this and she's like me right. So 148 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.159 you know, we've got some differences. But if I had come in and 149 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:48.440 it was like, Oh, I just graduated yesterday, you'd be like, 150 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:50.600 have you done this before? Probably not. It's like yeah, you see, 151 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:54.200 I've been doing this forever, a decade right. Interviewed some like people 152 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:58.480 fresh on the scene too, and there's definitely a difference. That's why we 153 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:01.480 take a it's on directors and VPS of marketing for a reason, because they're 154 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.159 just high enough that they've earned some stripes, but they're still close enough to 155 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.200 the dirt to uh know what it's like to build a facebook ad campaign from 156 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:13.720 scratch. Right, the different step. So I get that. So come 157 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:16.279 back to your your fourth step process. I like wrote it down, but 158 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:18.559 you said it so fast I didn't even get to it. Also, repeat 159 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.440 it for the for me and for the audience. Like what was your what 160 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.440 was your fourth step process? Yeah, so one thing I want to clarify 161 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.759 is it's not four steps in a linear fashion. It's a kind of four 162 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:33.159 pillar like you have to build all of the pillars in Tanda. So the 163 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:37.399 first pillar is around credibility, and this is do people believe what you say? 164 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:41.639 Do People think you know what you're talking about? Do they generally trust 165 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:45.879 you? The second pillar is around building a profile. So this is about 166 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.440 how widely you're known and the nature of those connections. So if you look 167 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:52.000 at people who don't have a big profile, it tends to be that the 168 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:56.000 people who know them know them personally, they've worked together, it's their friends, 169 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:58.720 it's their family. When you look at people with a big profile, 170 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:05.200 it's more of like of the people know them, but they don't know those 171 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:09.480 people back Um. So that's kind of one just gut check of like do 172 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:13.679 you have a big profile or small profile? The third piece is around being 173 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:18.679 prolific. So if you look at some of the you know, throughout history, 174 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:20.720 the people that we would consider to be thought leaders or pioneers in their 175 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:26.440 field, they wrote or they painted or they built or they created every single 176 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:28.399 day. And so when you look at that from a business context, you 177 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:33.360 see that people are creating different types of content, they're sharing in different types 178 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:35.519 of places and they're doing that on a regular basis. It's not a media 179 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:39.440 blitz around, you know, a big product launch. It's no, they're 180 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:43.799 out there sharing all the time. And then the fourth pillars around depth of 181 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:46.279 ideas. So this is kind of a novelty factor. Are you doing new 182 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:50.879 things? One thing that I have shared that I think also strikes people as 183 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:54.399 a little like, oh, that's interesting, Um, is that the way 184 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:56.919 these pillyers work is you kind of work your way up right like there's three 185 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:01.759 levels. I would argue that you can be an effective thought leader at the 186 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:05.960 kind of innovating on the tactics level, innovating on the strategy level, and 187 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:09.919 it's rare that you're gonna have somebody innovating or sharing novel things at the visionary 188 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:15.000 level. In a lot of cases, if you're that visionary, you've probably 189 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:18.200 already got the other things happening too. But when you think about it, 190 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:20.720 and again this show is a perfect example, where you want people who have 191 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.720 the tactics and the strategies, not just this big vision of Oh, in 192 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.879 ten years, this fancy thing will happen. It's like, okay, well, 193 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:31.039 like, what's going to happen in the next twelve months and how do 194 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:37.240 I my programs forward or move my business forward based on innovative tactics or innovative 195 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:39.200 strategies? Yeah, the visionary one is tough because it gets a lot of 196 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:43.120 people in trouble, right, and a lot of people have were thought leaders 197 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:46.000 and then became not thought leaders because, well, their visions were wrong, 198 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:48.600 right. It happens a lot. It's funny. You're four things. I'm 199 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.720 like, Oh, it's so similar. Actually built a similar framework, but 200 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:56.080 I have three and there's overlap between them. I essentially said, like, 201 00:12:56.440 --> 00:12:58.240 you're not an authentic thought leader unless you're an expert, like you kind of 202 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:01.960 know everything there is, as you're contributing unique and useful ideas and you're an 203 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:05.039 authority on the topic, as in, like you said, you're credible. 204 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:09.799 People believe you, but I have kind of have to in mind like what 205 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.159 your credibility and prolific are. I'm just kind of capturing an authority. Right, 206 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:18.159 people believe you and they like you. Both those things so you need 207 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:22.720 all those ingredients to have a thought to be a thought leader. I'm curious 208 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:26.200 when you're looking for that in at last in or maybe in past jobs in 209 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.240 the future, like, are you looking for people who are currently already have 210 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:33.399 all those things or people who just have the potential for those things? I'm 211 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:35.639 open to both. So I've been in a very fortunate position and a couple 212 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.559 of in a past company where the person was already a thought leader. So 213 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.600 when I worked at Dwarte, I worked very closely with Nancy Duarte and helping 214 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:48.279 to launch her, was it fourth book? I think it was her fourth 215 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:52.559 book, illuminate, working very closely with her to, you know, continue 216 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:56.759 to expand. She was one of the first prior to linkedin opening up basically 217 00:13:56.799 --> 00:13:58.720 their whole platform for people to be able to publish. She was one of 218 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:05.120 the original four hundred influencers on Linkedin that was allowed to publish long form content. 219 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.759 So I helped her build that program and helped her think through how do 220 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:11.919 we connect the ideas that are in your books to the service offerings, to 221 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.639 what you're trying to share next, and how do we make those connections Um 222 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:18.840 so in that case she was already a thought leader. I was able to 223 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:22.480 come in and, you know, it was basically tasked with like cool, 224 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:24.840 we've done all this great stuff. How do we turn that into business and 225 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:28.080 how do we keep it going? From an UTLASTIAN perspective, we have a 226 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:31.840 number of people who are already, you know, great spokespeople. They're super 227 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.679 smart, they have big followings, they appear in a lot of places right 228 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:37.799 they check all the boxes. What we realize is that maybe we don't have 229 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.200 the biggest bench show the deepest bench of people. And as we start looking 230 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:46.799 at going into new markets and telling new stories, do we have people lined 231 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:50.759 up that can tell those stories? Because we've already built these great people that 232 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:56.360 have credibility and kind of one area in terms of topics, but they don't 233 00:14:56.360 --> 00:15:00.600 necessarily have that credibility to go into another topic. So what do we need 234 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:03.519 to build from the ground up? And I was fortunate to work one of 235 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:09.360 my colleagues. He has an excellent reputation internally. He's freaking smart, like 236 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:11.320 Super Smart. You get in a room with him and you're just like, 237 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:15.600 dude, you know things like how do you make these connections? And he 238 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:20.080 he had started to make those connections outside of it, last Sean. But 239 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:22.639 when you look at his profile, for example, so what we do is 240 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:26.039 we set a baseline and we score people based on how they're doing, and 241 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.240 I've got a couple of numbers that makes sense for us in terms of how 242 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:31.759 many followers do you have on different social platforms? How much content are you 243 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:37.919 creating um or being featured in per month? What's the nature of the outlets 244 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:39.279 that feature you? Right? And so when you look at it, he 245 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:45.399 was in that kind of smaller profile area of personally knowing people. So Um, 246 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:48.519 he would get brought in by a friend to share his expertise at, 247 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:50.879 say, a meet up, and so what we were able to do with 248 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:56.240 him is to start getting him sharing on social more regularly and then honing in 249 00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:00.399 on the specific stories and topics that he would cover so that we could build 250 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:06.080 that credibility with more, you know, conferences, press, Um, working 251 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:08.240 with partners if they had, you know, guest blogs or podcasts or something 252 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:11.360 like that that he could be featured on, because he was very high on 253 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.679 the depth of ideas, but he wasn't sharing and because he wasn't sharing, 254 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.879 he didn't have a following. So his profile was not very big. He 255 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.879 also was a practitioner with, you know, twenty years experience, has a 256 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:26.679 solid title managing a big team, so he's high on that credibility piece as 257 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:33.240 well. Yeah, it's really interesting that current title and what they're doing is 258 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:38.279 such a big factor, more than PhD, more than awards. That's that's 259 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.279 the thing you're kind of using as the benchmark, and I guess that makes 260 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:45.639 sense because you're you're looking at like, well, where you're at right now. 261 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.639 It gives context, right, for where you're at. And we yet, 262 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:49.840 like you said, even before, I think before, I don't know 263 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.600 if you've said this on the show, read a bit like people want to 264 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:56.200 get advice from peers, often, but peers that are farther ahead than them. 265 00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.919 But we're maybe once where they were like in a similar stage maybe, 266 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:04.160 and maybe just doing a lot better right, rather than people were like professional 267 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:08.720 thought leaders who just essentially always on a never ending speaking circuit. Right, 268 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.720 right. So one thing I'd like to hear about is if you were given 269 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:17.960 ten thousand dollars, sorry, not ten thousand dollars, if you're giving ten 270 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:21.279 x the budgets. I'm sure your budgets a lot more than ten thousand dollars. 271 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:25.240 If they were given ten x the budget, what would you do differently 272 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:27.720 at at lants and if you wanted to grow at Last Sans Thought Leadership? 273 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:33.440 Yeah, so I if I had ten x the budget, I would basically 274 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:38.119 pair. I would do a one to one pairing of a marketing generalist with 275 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:42.160 a thought leader Um, and I would say that for both kind of more 276 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:45.720 niche topics that are kind of technical in nature, as well as brand level 277 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:49.480 topics. So at last game, what that means for us we cover a 278 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:53.759 lot of agile and devots topics. That's what I tend to be responsible for 279 00:17:53.839 --> 00:18:00.680 in my current role. Like finding people with the chops that have that across 280 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:03.039 all of those topics is really hard and in a lot of cases, once 281 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:07.680 you find them, they're not because it's not their expertise. They're not that 282 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:11.759 great at social they're not that great at writing. There they struggle to put 283 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:17.160 together a presentation. A marketing generalist can come in and say you just you 284 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:22.000 tell me what expertise you have. Let's codify those ideas and then I can 285 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:26.319 go away as the generalist and break that up into a hundred social posts for 286 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.880 you to get scheduled or five conference pitches and Hey, I can reconfigure this 287 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:36.000 deck. Or let's turn those into modular stories that can be told to press. 288 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:40.279 Two conferences, you know across social media, you know in writing, 289 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:41.359 as a blog series and then, oh, we can package it up. 290 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.680 There's an ultimate guide, but so and so, and then we can break 291 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:47.359 it apart. Right. So I would do that as a one to one 292 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:49.680 pairing. Same thing for brand bubble topics. Obviously, things like remote work, 293 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:53.279 future work, collaboration, teamwork at center Um. Same thing. The 294 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:59.240 people who are building out all of those massive programs and practices. They do 295 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:04.640 not have time to translate their internal facing what is essentially thought leadership to be 296 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:08.160 appropriate for an external audience. But a marketing generalist can come in and do 297 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:14.160 all of that kind of packaging for that person. So there's a subject matter 298 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:17.559 expert need to be full time thought leader doing nothing but talking in front of 299 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:21.880 a camera to Mike. I would say that having the subject matter experts doing 300 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:25.400 that as a portion of their time and depending on the size of the company 301 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:27.880 and depending on what your goals are and depending on what that person is doing 302 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:32.160 is their day job. I struggle a little bit to say how much of 303 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:36.920 their time they need to put into that, whether it's etcetera. I think 304 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:38.880 it can also scale depending on the needs of the company. Right. So 305 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:45.759 if you are obviously we have a large conference called team and so a number 306 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.279 of our leadership and, you know, practitioners or spokespeople speak at that conference. 307 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:52.160 Obviously around that time we tend to do a lot of press, we 308 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.799 tend to do a lot of social there's a lot of stuff. So the 309 00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:00.599 blitz. In that case they may have to spend their time time honing the 310 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:04.440 story, prepping, sharing, writing, et Cetera, for that event, 311 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.960 but then it may scale down to be of their time or ten percent of 312 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:11.599 their time going forward. But I would say that you definitely don't want them 313 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.920 just out there speaking all the time because then, to your point, they 314 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.839 start to lose that connection again, that depth of ideas pillar. They start 315 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:21.880 to lose that and that's why I say all the pillars have to work in 316 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:25.680 tandem. Like you can get a lot of followers if you do some not 317 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:29.039 safe for work or not on brand things right, like people will follow you 318 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:33.240 to watch you be a trade wreck. But that damage is your credibility and 319 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.240 obviously there's no depth, right, if you're only just heads down and you're 320 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:40.680 like doing the best work and you're building your own bank account or your own 321 00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:44.160 value for the team or your own value for a company, but you're not 322 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:48.000 sharing it and you're not being prolific, you're not going to build a profile 323 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:51.000 and you're not going to have that external credibility. So they have to work 324 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:55.079 in tandem and it makes a lot of sense because obviously just getting in front 325 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:57.839 of a microphone, Um, even for an hour a day and talking, 326 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:02.400 whether by an inn of view, like the amount of work it takes the 327 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:06.519 marketer to like record that, publish it and splinter it up into all the 328 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:10.319 different pieces is literally the rest of the day, right. So if they 329 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:15.039 you had them like six hours of the day like producing content for the marketer 330 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:18.119 to go to market, like package and market like, you're gonna overwhelm even 331 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:22.079 one marketer and a wonder one relationship. So that makes a lot of sense 332 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:26.559 and actually it's a pretty good case considering like most people have one thought leadership 333 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:32.880 content marketer and usually they're creating thought leadership for multiple people on the executive team. 334 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:36.400 But it's probably not enough. It could probably just focus on one person. 335 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:40.839 But if you only had enough budget for one thought leadership, kind of 336 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:44.000 content marketer, how would you do that? Would you just focus on the 337 00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:48.880 one or would you have that person focused on multiple subject matter experts? Yeah, 338 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.720 I would. I would go ahead and have them focus on multiple people 339 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:56.079 for a couple of reasons. One is that, as I mentioned, just 340 00:21:56.200 --> 00:22:00.519 having having all of that hinge on a single person, like, do they 341 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.599 ever get to take vacation? What if they get sick? What if they 342 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:06.119 have a child and they need to take leave for, you know, to 343 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:08.200 raise their kid for a couple of months? Right, like there's so many 344 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.920 things that are not bad. The biggest risk is everyone's concerned like Oh, 345 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.319 what if that person leaves, and I'm like, okay, but there's shorter 346 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:19.160 term, great things that are good for all of us that they should do. 347 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:22.559 They should take vacation, they should raise their kids, they should, 348 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.039 you know, take sick time if they're sick. So that's one issue. 349 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:30.079 Is that you do need to have kind of a bench of people. The 350 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:36.319 second piece of that is the how many kind of topics you have the credibility 351 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:38.799 to talk about, and one person can only be an expert in so many 352 00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:42.359 things and I've I've even had this in my career, like prior to kind 353 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:45.720 of my focus in over the last several years. I was doing everything. 354 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.960 So I did events, I did demand H I was in Marcto or hubspot. 355 00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:52.400 I don't do that anymore. I'm the wrong person to ask if your 356 00:22:53.240 --> 00:23:00.359 workflow logic is correct in Marcato or hub spot. I understand where to additional 357 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:04.000 demandsin fits into an overall marketing strategy. I understand the connections between kind of 358 00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:11.079 content marketing and demand it, but I do not have the credibility anymore to 359 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:17.599 speak about in depth demanding. And so if, again, let's say I 360 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:21.079 worked at Hubspot, I would be a great person to speak about the content 361 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:23.319 marketing side, the thought leadership side. I could probably hold my own on 362 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:26.720 social media, but you don't want me to be you need somebody else to 363 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:30.480 be that demand in person. And so if you try to have that spokesperson 364 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.920 be all on one again, you're gonna lose that depth of ideas and you're 365 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:37.319 going to struggle on the credibility side, even if they're very prolific, because 366 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:41.519 they can kind of talk about a bunch of different things. So that's why? 367 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:45.599 I would also say building the same you know, building people and making 368 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:48.559 sure that they are credible in the topics that you, as a company. 369 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:53.000 No, you want to address over the next, call it, twelve to 370 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:57.799 thirty six months. It's interesting. So do you find a person that you 371 00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:03.400 think is a good candidate and help them find their niche to become that public 372 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:06.319 face, or do you reverse engineer, like you find the niche you want 373 00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:07.680 to cover and then you look around for the person who can be the thought 374 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:11.960 leader? I've done it both ways. So we and and we've done this 375 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:15.839 kind of both ways and at Lassian, where we've said let's find the story 376 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.440 and then say, okay, we need a couple of different people to be 377 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:22.039 able to tell that stories. So if we think about obviously at last and 378 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:26.279 the Elastian is a very engineering heavy company, right. We do SAS, 379 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:32.000 we do collaboration, we do software. So the engineering from our recruiting standpoint, 380 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:36.240 from a buyer standpoint, from a user standpoint, all of those things 381 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:40.319 are very important to us. So having just one person be the face, 382 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:45.119 in quotes, of Lassian engineering is going to be really hard. So in 383 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:48.680 that case we decided here's the story we want to tell around engineering. Here's 384 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:52.519 a couple of different people who have, you know, great expertise, or 385 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.119 maybe they've already they're already high and at least one pillar. So now we 386 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:00.519 just need to figure out what to build across the other pillars to make them 387 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.359 acceptable or are good thought leaders for us around engineering. So in that case 388 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:07.960 we we focused more on building the story and finding the people. We've had 389 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:12.279 other cases where we found someone you know or somebody already had a following or 390 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:15.920 they were already very good at this, and so then at that point we 391 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:18.960 were just like, all right, cool, we just need to kind of 392 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:22.799 supply you with a few we need to help you hone your story in a 393 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:26.839 way that makes sense for our goals, but we still want you to be 394 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.839 out there talking about different things in your own voice, applying your own lens 395 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:34.559 to it, those kinds of things. That's kind of an interesting point on 396 00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:38.680 you hit there where you're honing their story right. A piece of advice, 397 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:42.079 and I've mentioned this in this series already, a piece of advice that honestly 398 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:47.480 drives me crazy on linkedin all the time is that it's just wrong. In 399 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:52.000 my opinion, is just be you. Right just be yourself and you're like 400 00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:55.559 what am I supposed to do with that? Right? What, like how 401 00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:57.359 do I craft that? It's like so hearing you say, like, no, 402 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:00.440 we honed their story, is not just just be you advice. It's 403 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:04.400 like no, like it's it's not like we made up a story. You. 404 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.759 You're probably going in and looking for what part of their journey actually lines 405 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:11.119 up with what the story, the message we want to tell. Yeah, 406 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.960 is that what you're doing? Yeah. So, so there's a couple of 407 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.759 ways that we do that. In I have kind of another framework within the 408 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:21.519 framework kind of thing. Um, and this stuff tails a lot with my 409 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:25.920 kind of my general mindset around content strategy, and that's focusing on different content 410 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:30.559 depths, so looking at the conceptual, strategic and tactical levels of an idea. 411 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:33.359 And so when we get in, usually whenever I do these working sessions 412 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.400 with people, you know, we get in and I'm just like tell me 413 00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:40.079 all the things that you're interested in or that you're working on, like let's 414 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:44.559 get it all out and then let's start to talk about okay, going forward 415 00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:48.480 over the next twelve to twenty four months. Which of these things do you 416 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:52.640 think you've got enough to say to fill up, you know, one blog 417 00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:56.079 post per month, five linked in post per month to presentation abstracts. And 418 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.319 when you start to frame it up that way, people immediately can you like 419 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.039 Oh, it's this thing over here and I'm like why is that? Well, 420 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.799 this idea, and then they start talking and you recognize, okay, 421 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:11.160 they've got the big idea. At the conceptual level, they understand the processes, 422 00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:14.640 the key knowledge components, the capabilities, the tools that you needed a 423 00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:19.440 strategic level to make that idea reality. And then obviously they've got examples or 424 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:26.160 case studies or workflows or tips at the tactical level based on how that fits 425 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:27.839 into the strategy. And all ladders up. So when you look at that, 426 00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:34.240 the likelihood that somebody has more than maybe three of those levels of ideas 427 00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:37.680 that they could really it's got the legs and they can. They can go 428 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:41.839 up down that whole you know, conceptual and tactical and strategic and back to 429 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:47.480 tactical and strategic right like it's it's rare that you're gonna find somebody that's just 430 00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:52.839 so broader, prolific or whatever they can go beyond kind of more than than 431 00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.359 three ideas. The second thing that I do is I do a personal branding 432 00:27:56.680 --> 00:27:59.920 section, and this tends to be for a lot of people who aren't market. 433 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.440 Is the most scary thing. I sit down with them and they're like, 434 00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:04.160 you just tell me. One of the first things I'm like, what 435 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:07.359 do you wear? How do you dress? And they're like, I'll wear 436 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:11.480 whatever you whatever you tell me. You know, I just whatever you tell 437 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:12.079 me to do. I'll just do that, and I'm like no, no, 438 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:15.039 no, no, I have no answers here. I do not have 439 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:21.240 an agenda. Legitimately. Do you wear Polos? Do you wear button ups? 440 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.440 Do you wear t shirts? And like one of one of the people 441 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:26.200 I was working with, Um, he started out with that, like Oh, 442 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:29.880 you just tell me, I'll do whatever you say. And so we 443 00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:32.799 started going through and he's like well, actually, I don't really like the 444 00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:34.680 color red. I'm like great, you don't wear Red Gun. He's like, 445 00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:37.839 I mean, I can't wear red. I'm like no, you know, 446 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:40.920 we're red. Put It on the list and he's like also, Um, 447 00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:42.119 I don't really look that great in hats. I'm just I'm just not 448 00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:45.319 a big fan of hats. I was like, great, you don't wear 449 00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:48.000 hats. He's like, I mean, I can't wear hats. Like again, 450 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:52.240 once we get into it, you have preferences, so you tell me 451 00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:56.720 what those are. And and same thing on the how open or how personal? 452 00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:00.279 Like, how truthful are you? Do you share about face of yours, 453 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:03.160 your mistakes in the moment, or do you wait until it's cleaned up 454 00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:07.480 with a tidy bow? Both ways work. You can do it either way, 455 00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.119 but you need to decide, like, do you share about your kids? 456 00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:12.640 Do you do you share about your spouse? Do you share about your 457 00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:17.680 family? Do you show pictures of them on social media or in conferences? 458 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.279 Again, there is not a right answer, but you need to choose, 459 00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:25.680 because if you start doing all of this stuff now and then, let's you 460 00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:27.079 know, hopefully the goal is that you have a big audience and all of 461 00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:30.359 a sudden you're like, actually, I wish I hadn't shared that photo of 462 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:34.079 my husband. Well, kind of should have found that six months ago before 463 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:37.240 you spoke to a crowd of a thousand people and Flash that picture up of 464 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.680 your kids or your husband. Right. So that and you know I I 465 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:44.319 talk about this too, even in some of my stories, where you know 466 00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:47.759 my husband will hear me. Rehearsing for something and I'm like, I don't 467 00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:52.359 want you to listen because you lived this with me and I'm telling a story. 468 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:56.480 And again, it's not a lie, it's just nobody wants to hear 469 00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:00.839 about the two year journey. They want to like make it smarty. But 470 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.359 for him, he knows it was two years and the fact that I'm able 471 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:08.160 to tell in five minutes something's missing right. So in my case I have, 472 00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.039 I have made the trade off on the spectrum of you know, every 473 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:17.480 detail, dent, truthful, exactly how it happened, with I'm going to 474 00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:21.240 tell the right story to the right person at the right time. I mean 475 00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:26.279 part of being authority and being prolific is being trust, is being trusted, 476 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:30.240 and usually people trust you more if, and James Carberry, the founder of 477 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:32.400 sweet fish media, is the one who really taught me this, he's like 478 00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:36.279 you have to put little hooks out there for people to identify with you, 479 00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:38.400 and it's not the thing that it's not your expertise. Yes, they're coming 480 00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:41.119 to you to hear to you, but he's like, there's a reason why 481 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:45.839 I tell everybody that, like my ambition in life is to live as many 482 00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:49.839 days as possible without wearing shoes. He's like, I'm a flip flop guy, 483 00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:53.039 I live in Florida. Like he's like, I hate Pepsi and I 484 00:30:53.079 --> 00:30:57.480 don't wear shoes. He's like, I'm a zero fan and I like sweetest 485 00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:02.039 fish. There's a lot of people that I just defended and there's a lot 486 00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:07.440 of people that are like yes, amen, and he's like the Pepsi people 487 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:08.480 could probably get over it, but I trust me, like all the coke 488 00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:14.200 zero fans were probably like this is my man, you know, little things. 489 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:18.079 That's just like, and they're all just talk about that. Pepsi is 490 00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:22.400 the worst among team coke. to Um, it's sweet fish. We have 491 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:26.319 debates because not everybody's on team coke, even though James and I are. 492 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:30.039 I don't know how they got hired. Come on, come on, it 493 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.640 probably should be, but James is too nice. He let's team Pepsi on. 494 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.319 I guess. I don't know. I guess everybody deserves a chance. 495 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:41.519 It's a questionable so it's interesting. It's how do you go about identifying which 496 00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:45.960 things are worth highlighting which things aren't, because there's clearly like you don't want 497 00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:48.799 to make up fake stuff just because it's trendy, like Oh, they're into 498 00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:52.400 this because that's kind of a trending topic. No, they're not into this, 499 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:55.440 and you don't address them and stuff they're not comfortable and because that would 500 00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:59.000 be inauthentic and they're they're probably not going to perform that well, um on 501 00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:01.200 stage or in front of them if they're wearing something that's like they never wear 502 00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:07.079 that. But then how do you go about finding the things that create kind 503 00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:10.160 of a unique image? What do you look for? I think the biggest 504 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:17.640 thing is digging into their actual experience and then kind of almost playing that five 505 00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:22.079 y question or asking what next? What next? Right? So, for 506 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.480 example, talking about people who it's like, man, you know, I 507 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:30.920 remember back in the day where we one of the people I used to was 508 00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:34.519 working with, they had a story about you. The WIFI was so bad 509 00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:37.000 in the office when it was like, Oh, we first opened this office, 510 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:38.079 and I was like they're like, oh, that wife I was terrible, 511 00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:42.440 and I was like tell me about that, and they're like you literally 512 00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:45.400 had to like turn the router upside down and like put it on the window 513 00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:49.720 sill, but then every night the cleaning crew would come in and like move 514 00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:52.880 it off the window sill, and so every morning there was a whole ritual 515 00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:55.519 that somebody had to go in and turn the Wifi router and you're just like 516 00:32:57.119 --> 00:33:00.599 that's ridiculous, right. So when you think about, let's talk about scaling 517 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:05.720 a company, and you say, yeah, you used to have to take 518 00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:08.720 your meetings in the bathroom because there wasn't a conference room, do you happen 519 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:12.480 to have a picture of that, like, surely someone took a picture of 520 00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:14.920 that? Oh, in fact, I do have a picture of that. 521 00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:19.079 Perfect. That's your opener for talking about scaling a company and saying, I 522 00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:21.119 don't know how many of you have ever had to take a call in a 523 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.720 freaking bathroom, but it sucks right, like the acoustics, the echo of 524 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:29.920 the whole thing. And so that's the jumping off point, because somebody in 525 00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:32.920 the audience has had to take a call from a bathroom. Half the people 526 00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:37.079 in the audience have never done that and that it bottles their mind right. 527 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:40.960 When you then fast forward, and it's fine to say fast forward five years, 528 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:45.039 and now we're in this high rise office. It's fancy, we have 529 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:51.400 all of these things, but we're still dealing with our servers from that time 530 00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:53.200 period, and the other half of the audience that's never taken a call in 531 00:33:53.200 --> 00:34:00.279 the bathroom but understands about outdated infrastructure is like, man, I ish I 532 00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:02.359 did not have to deal with these infrastructure concerns. I feel you, and 533 00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:07.679 then that's that same pain right. So from my perspective it's finding those moments 534 00:34:07.719 --> 00:34:10.719 that, if there's pictures or if their stories and you can tell, I 535 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:14.239 mean their demeanor changes. I had somebody say this to me the other day. 536 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:15.159 They were asking me about like, Oh, what do you want to 537 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:19.719 talk about on this podcast or this conference? And so I started listening to 538 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:22.920 things I could talk about and they're like, Whoa, go back that one. 539 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:25.280 You got really excited, like you smiled and you lit up and you're 540 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:30.840 talking with your hands. That's the one. And so again giving people that 541 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:35.519 permission to say here's kind of the high level goals that I need to talk 542 00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:42.239 about. But when that's broad enough to say engineering or storytelling, I'm really 543 00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:46.360 trying to find what is the thing that you genuinely like? Not Everything you've 544 00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:51.599 ever done, not everything that the company is selling. No, why did 545 00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:53.519 you come here? Like what problem did you actually come here to solve? 546 00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:58.639 And why are you excited about that problem? That prompt also tends to get 547 00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:00.800 people like well, let me tell you if you know what happened to this 548 00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:04.960 situation. And I'm like, in fact, I don't. Please tell me 549 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:07.960 what happened in this situation that changed your mind. Even if you're dealing with 550 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.639 like a founder, for example, and you're like no, they have to 551 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:17.960 be the face, ask them what happened that made them so mad that they 552 00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:22.920 left whatever it was they were doing at that moment and started the company. 553 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:28.679 What was that? Because that's the interesting part. Not and then we made 554 00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:30.599 this company with ten features, like, nobody freaking cares about your features. 555 00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:32.840 If they care about the features, they'll go to the website, do the 556 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:37.159 checklist right, they'll watch the Webinar, they'll do a demo. But what? 557 00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:39.800 What made you so mad that you just dropped whatever you were doing and 558 00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:45.119 you came to solve this problem? And then how did you go about validating 559 00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:46.679 that? Other people have this problem? How did you go about validating that 560 00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:51.400 nobody else was solving it the right way? Right? That's the interesting part, 561 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.880 man. That is such a good framework for answering and figuring out someone's 562 00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:00.519 backstory. Essentially, like why? Why? Why? Why? Just asking 563 00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:02.239 the question so many times that you find they get to the root of why 564 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:06.679 they did what they did. Uh. Sometimes I run into people who started, 565 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:09.119 have started companies. This is kind of more founder Centrics, like why 566 00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:13.719 do you start the company? They're like well, because I was assessing the 567 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:15.440 market and it just seemed like a really good market to get into. But 568 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:20.800 there's always a little bit more than being opportunistic and finding it. You know, 569 00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:22.639 you kind of have to want to get into that industry and there's usually 570 00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:28.079 more more there. Um, what do you do to find things that aren't 571 00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:31.559 like related to the story, memorable things? How do you make people memorable? 572 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:36.880 So this is where the if I had ten next the budget, I 573 00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:43.599 would pay one marketer to one thought leader, because the only way I found 574 00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.400 to do it is for and this is like my personal experience, is to 575 00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:52.239 genuinely know the person and to also love the things that they love, to 576 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.440 fall in love with the same things that they fell in love with, and 577 00:36:55.519 --> 00:37:00.000 you can only do that by spending time together and that ability to walk and 578 00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:04.760 talk, that ability to watch them, that ability to lurk on their calendar, 579 00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:10.000 like that closeness. That's how you get the interesting stuff you know. 580 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:15.079 And yes, you can manufacture it, you can come up with the right 581 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:16.559 questions, like I can say all day long, Oh, here's my ten 582 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:22.320 questions, but if you watch me when I do what I do to pull 583 00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:24.440 stuff out of people, and it means the same thing you're doing on this 584 00:37:24.519 --> 00:37:29.480 podcast, like you're you're talking to me, you're seeing how things go, 585 00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:34.079 you're hearing and then you're riffing. You don't have your proper list of ten 586 00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:38.079 questions to have a good podcast interview. And so that's a hard question because 587 00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:40.519 I wish I could tell you that there's a formula for it, and the 588 00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:45.599 formula is you actually have to know them and you actually have to care about 589 00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:49.320 them and you actually have to love what they love. And there there's just 590 00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:55.360 to get the best kind of content or the best person out there. There's 591 00:37:55.400 --> 00:38:00.000 not a substitute, there's not a handy, pithy framework, there's not sound 592 00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:05.679 bites, there's no there's no way to get that unless you genuinely know them. 593 00:38:06.039 --> 00:38:09.760 It's interesting. I wonder what the kind of a model that I'm currently 594 00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:15.760 using as a shortcut, because I think what you're saying is right and true. 595 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:17.840 Like finding the things that you can only find if you spend a lot 596 00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:22.840 of time with them. But a shortcut I'm taking with our even our employees. 597 00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:25.599 We have a Linkedin evangelist program. It's not quite a thought leadership program, 598 00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:29.360 but we're trying to get them out there make content. Could be a 599 00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:31.280 good stepping stone to being a thought leader. Is I'm having to come up 600 00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:36.719 with ideas about, like what are things that you're passionate about that like lots 601 00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:38.960 of people are passionate about, for James's coke zero. I mean, I 602 00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:43.400 didn't ask him that question. He was already talking about that on Linkedin quite 603 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:45.239 a bit. But for new employees, I'm just like, give me three 604 00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:50.159 things that you love that like it's like everybody loves this. Is it Disney? 605 00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:52.000 Is it coke? Is it like, what is it? And then 606 00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:54.719 give me some things that you love that are just kind of like weird. 607 00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:00.199 Right, there's gonna be a few people that even understand what that is and 608 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:02.920 it's gonna work and I like just finding a mix of them and then hopefully 609 00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:07.960 blaming that into their little mini brand identities and somehow making little mentions of it 610 00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:12.360 and content every once in a while, like we all know Gary v but 611 00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:15.320 he has a number of different little is ms that are just like. I 612 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:19.559 have nothing to do with what he does, but everybody knows he's working towards 613 00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.039 buying the jets. Right. So if he's wearing the jets hat every all 614 00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:27.440 the insiders. No, he loves the jets. I'm not a jets fan, 615 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:31.800 but I'm sure if you are you're like yes, yeah, well, 616 00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:36.599 and mine. You know, I I always tell people to start with, 617 00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:39.039 start with the bio and like test out different BIOS. Right, like, 618 00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:43.039 right, it as if you're super humble or super arrogant. Write it as 619 00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:45.960 if you only have a hundred characters. Right, it as if you're a 620 00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:51.679 PhD and IT'S A dissertation. Um, try on those different BIOS. And 621 00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.880 for me having that, like you know, marketer, writer, speaker by 622 00:39:54.920 --> 00:40:00.400 day, Singer, actor of fitness by night, like that immediate at least 623 00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:04.960 starts to tell you things. And yes, I do sometimes draw parallels. 624 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.719 I have. You know, when I talk about the content depths, the 625 00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:10.480 first example that I use actually is around what does it mean to be healthy 626 00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:14.719 and fit, and that you're going to answer that question differently if you're runners 627 00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:17.400 world versus muscle and fitness versus Yoga Journal and then I talk a little bit 628 00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:21.280 about, Hey, I personally ascribed to kind of this style of workout. 629 00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:23.639 So let's let's dig in Um, and that's how you get that flavor of 630 00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:28.760 like, Oh, she made the connection with fitness fiend. But the other 631 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:30.239 thing you'll know about me if you deal with me very often, is I 632 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:34.639 really like Alliteration, like I love it. Right, I had a blog. 633 00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:37.159 I called it a musing marketing then I broadened it to consciously corporate and 634 00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.639 then at one point I was kind of like I noticed there was it was 635 00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:43.880 before fashion became a thing. So I was doing like work where Wednesdays, 636 00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:45.679 and now, obviously I was like how can I get fitness fiend and like 637 00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:51.159 what rhymes with fitness? Oh, fiend, they go together. You see 638 00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:53.679 those little things in there, even though I don't talk about it as like 639 00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:59.559 an explicit thing, but when we have conversations like this and then you look 640 00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:01.960 at everything that I write and you're like, oh my gosh, she does 641 00:41:02.119 --> 00:41:06.760 like she she likes alliteration, and if you work in me on a team, 642 00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:09.000 you know that, like, Hey, I'm having a copyrighting. Delima 643 00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:13.199 Astley pull out your alliteration, right, like it's a thing that you kind 644 00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:15.559 of know if you deal with me. And so there's almost that element of 645 00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:21.599 asking people, like what's the quirk or what's something that like what do you 646 00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:25.000 do on the weekends? Or like what's the one question that everybody always seems 647 00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:29.079 to ask you, like are you that person on the street that everybody always 648 00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:32.239 asks you for directions? Why? Because you always have them back, for 649 00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:36.239 you just look confident or you like walk really fast, so they figure out 650 00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:38.840 I seem to know where they're going. Um. So asking them like what 651 00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:44.679 are some weird experiences that happened to you a lot, and then drilling into 652 00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:46.400 being like what? Why is it? Why does that seem to happen to 653 00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:49.559 you a lot? Why do you seem to get that question a lot? 654 00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:52.679 or like what's a silly thing you do with your kids or with your spouse 655 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:57.239 or with your book club? Right, like asking those kinds of questions gets 656 00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:01.079 that kind of any questions like that do you have? So I would have 657 00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:05.239 to look. I've got like a whole tactics worksheet in the personal brand section. 658 00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:07.559 I ask how do you speak, Um, and then I give some 659 00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:10.760 prompts like are you formal? Are you sarcastic? Are You approachable? Are 660 00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:15.119 Your friendly? Are you funny? Um, and so, as people start 661 00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:19.400 to go through those questions, I think it's honestly only like five big questions. 662 00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:22.599 Um. One of them is kind of that bio exercise and then we 663 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:24.639 see what happens with that. The other is how you speak, that how 664 00:42:24.679 --> 00:42:28.440 you dress. I think. Also it's like why do you dress that way? 665 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:30.199 Oh, well, I don't know. I've been in Chech my whole 666 00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:35.440 life. So we wear jeans and hoodies. Okay, that's fine. How 667 00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:37.280 did you get into tech? When you say your whole life, what do 668 00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:40.280 you mean by that? Right. So, Um, it's it's honestly only 669 00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:45.039 like five questions, but then kind of some prompts in there to get them 670 00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:47.280 thinking. Um, I've also done it, if people are stumped, to 671 00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:52.519 show them a massive list of adjectives and be like a circle of five things 672 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:57.039 on here, like which of these words do you like? And I don't 673 00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:00.719 give them any prompting. It's not which one describes you, it's not what 674 00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:05.079 do you aim to be? It's just like strucle. So words on here 675 00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:09.000 that speak to you. You know, man, that's so much fun and 676 00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:12.440 I want to see these questions. And you mentioned it's in a section. 677 00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:16.000 Do you have this published somewhere? So I've been so bad. So the 678 00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:20.920 stuff that I'm talking about right now is basically published, uh, pretty much 679 00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:23.320 internally. Um, I have. I think I've actually published. I spoke 680 00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:29.000 about this, Um at B two B forum in the fall, I think, 681 00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:31.719 yeah, last fall. So I did give I turned them into basically 682 00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:37.000 worksheets for people and then I've published it kind of slowly but surely, on 683 00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:40.119 Linkedin in different places. But yes, I need to publish like a long 684 00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:45.039 form article with the downloadable templates. But I can send you. I can, 685 00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:46.719 I can, I mean I can. You have enough information to write 686 00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:50.360 your own playbook on this and maybe I don't know if it's enough to be 687 00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:52.480 a full book and maybe you, I bet you have a lot more that 688 00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:54.880 probably could be a full book. But it sounds like you have a lot 689 00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:58.199 worked out, because you kept mentioning like, Oh, I have a framework, 690 00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:00.519 oh I have a framework for my framework. Oh, that in section 691 00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:04.199 part three. I'm like, Oh, she's got a lot of information this. 692 00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:07.880 This should have been published somewhere a long time ago. I know people 693 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:09.559 keep saying. I keep getting people being like do you have this? Can 694 00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:12.800 I get this? where? You say you have this? Where does it? 695 00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:15.880 You need to sell worksheets just so we can publish it with this episode 696 00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:17.000 for the audience. You know, I'll save you the workshets. You can 697 00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:20.880 publish it with this episode for sure, and that way people can get it. 698 00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:25.320 I it's interesting because I have wrestled with this problem for the better part 699 00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:30.440 of the last decade and I think I've solved it pretty well with the framework 700 00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:35.320 for my current needs. So it's interesting hearing from other people. They're like 701 00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:37.320 no, that's actually this makes sense, like I get it. I can 702 00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:40.599 use this, because in the past when I've tried to solve this problem, 703 00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:45.559 sometimes we go down these like semantic rabbit holes of like is credibility the right 704 00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:49.719 way versus authority or experts? You know what we're getting at. It's evos 705 00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:52.559 of trust, like do people believe you? You know. So that's part 706 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:57.440 of what's kept me from publishing is that I feel I still feel like I 707 00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:00.760 need to stress test it that like basically on the credit ability pillars, that 708 00:45:00.760 --> 00:45:02.400 I don't have the credibility and be like this is the way to do it. 709 00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:06.280 Like if you look at someone like Dory Clark, for example, she's 710 00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:09.519 done a ton of work in this space and she's written full books on it. 711 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:13.559 Right. Yeah, like she started somewhere and she wasn't authority on the 712 00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.480 space at some point. I've actually read Dories Book. I've read every single 713 00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:20.519 book, and I'm telling you, you have some unique information. Yeah, 714 00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:22.199 and that's kind of a problem and that's I feel like I've done it and 715 00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:25.159 I've actually had to start putting together my own playbook because I went and read 716 00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:30.159 every book looking for the answers and I haven't fund them. Yeah, so 717 00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:32.599 you have some of the unique ones and I would have read your book and 718 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:38.519 I would have been introducing you as author Ashley Fosse already. All right, 719 00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:43.239 I would have been picked up by other people and it would have built and 720 00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:45.320 you would have been more you would have built that credibility. But it has 721 00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:50.280 to start somewhere. So I'm just encouraging you, as a host of this 722 00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:52.920 show, that you should probably compile those into a book. Yeah, well, 723 00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.639 thank you. Well then that would be Beta right, like if I 724 00:45:55.679 --> 00:46:00.719 became a thought leader on thought leadership. It's not about to do the thought 725 00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:02.719 leadership, I know, and thought leadership is super cringe e. So it's 726 00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:06.719 hard to like want to position yourself as that person, because a lot of 727 00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:09.880 people hate thought leadership and think it's a joke of fat or a Buzzword. 728 00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:12.840 You and I both now. You're like no, it's kind of a thing 729 00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:15.599 and it's not going away. You could call it someone else, something else. 730 00:46:15.639 --> 00:46:20.119 Deloitte's calling it imminence marketing. You're like the heck, the heck, 731 00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:22.719 it's just it's called what it is. Okay, well, we don't even 732 00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:30.719 have time to get into like influencers versus spokespeople, versus whatever, thought leaders 733 00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:34.360 or whatever you want to call it. Right, like there's all these words 734 00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:38.079 and I think that we it is useful to differentiate in some cases, like 735 00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:43.119 what is this person do, like what do they have credibility to say, 736 00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:47.039 and therefore you use them differently. Right, but this whole again, imminence 737 00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:50.920 marketing, like what is that? Even? I don't know. They're just 738 00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:54.400 trying to reposition it because they don't want to be associated with the term thought 739 00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:59.960 leadership, because thought leadership has gotten baggage, because people of coint and called 740 00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.639 in themselves thought leaders and they're lacking your four major pillars. Right, you 741 00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:06.480 don't have the credibility and everybody knows it and they're like thought leader. I 742 00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:09.239 spoke out of TCH X. you're like great, thanks, right, right, 743 00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:12.639 well, and I would say that's I mean, maybe that's the other 744 00:47:12.679 --> 00:47:16.000 big thing that I do agree with everyone, which you can't call yourself a 745 00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:21.400 thought beater, like where it's in your linkedin title where you're like Actley leader. 746 00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:24.719 It's like that's weird, that's no, no, no, but you 747 00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:29.599 can still write a book to help people navigate their word way to it's it's 748 00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:31.599 worth it's a worthwhile pursuit to become a thought leader, even though you can 749 00:47:31.639 --> 00:47:37.880 never call yourself one, and it's certainly profitable as a marketing strategy. It's 750 00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:39.719 not for everybody, but for especially a lot of tech companies who want to 751 00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:45.039 be seen as innovative, like for B two B tech companies, it's kind 752 00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:49.000 of the main avenue to go is thought leadership marketing, and I know people 753 00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.199 are still hungry for it. I have customers asking me about it all the 754 00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:55.840 time as a podcast agency. So write that book. You have to still 755 00:47:55.840 --> 00:48:00.360 find your position and angle for it of who it's targeting. But and that's 756 00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.280 a hard thing in itself, but you could do it. Cool to wrap 757 00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:08.280 up this episode, though. Is there anything? Is there a question I 758 00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:13.519 should have asked and haven't asked yet, that you want to tell our audience 759 00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:16.760 about? I don't think so. I think we we kind of covered the 760 00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:22.239 GIMM and chased a few rabbits. Even so. Yeah, I don't think 761 00:48:22.599 --> 00:48:24.320 I don't think so. I think we've covered it. Fantastic that I did 762 00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:29.280 my job as a host well actually, if people want to learn more about 763 00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:31.320 these things and want to see when that book comes out, where can they 764 00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:36.480 go to learn more from you online? Yeah, so I am at Ashley 765 00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:39.679 Foss on Linkedin and twitter, so you should be able to follow me or 766 00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:44.599 d m me or connect to me in those places and I talked about these 767 00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:47.599 topics and other kind of content strategy and marketing strategy topics in both of those 768 00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:52.079 places as well well. Fantastic. Thanks for joining me on BDB growth. 769 00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:52.400 Thanks for having me