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June 3, 2022

Professional Freedom Isn’t a Pipe Dream, with Chris Walker

In this replay episode, we catch up with Chris Walker, CEO of Refine Labs, and he explains how realizing he already had professional freedom transformed his career.
What we talked about:
What professional freedom is and how to claim it for yourself...

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B2B Growth
In this replay episode, we catch up with Chris Walker, CEO of Refine Labs, and he explains how realizing he already had professional freedom transformed his career.
What we talked about:
What professional freedom is and how to claim it for yourself
The fear you need to overcome to branch out
How to get support from leadership at your workplace
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:13.279 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be to be growth. 2 00:00:16.839 --> 00:00:21.480 Hey friends, welcome in and excited today because it's Friday, which means we're 3 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:28.039 sharing a throwback episode a and our feature conversation today is called professional freedom. 4 00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:32.960 Isn't a pipe dream. With Mr Chris Walker over from refined labs, great 5 00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:38.359 chat actually around just our personal, you know, kind of professional development and 6 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:41.840 finding that level of autonomy that I know so many of us seek, even 7 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:44.560 if you're not a founder or CEO, which many of us, you know, 8 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:48.799 obviously aren't as a marketing show. But I know a lot of us 9 00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:52.880 desire that, that sort of freedom, and today's conversation is going to go 10 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:58.920 there. Think it's one that many of us will grab something from. So 11 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:03.479 love that that Chris shared his journey and that we can clean things from it. 12 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:07.799 Okay, to housekeeping things before I send us to the featured conversation. 13 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:11.519 First is I want to say thank you to everyone who's participated in our be 14 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:19.959 tob growth audience survey. Takes less than five minutes. If you haven't filled 15 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:22.560 it out yet, we would love to hear from you. Just go to 16 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:29.000 be tob growth podcom and this helps us continue to get better, figure out 17 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:33.200 what your liking about the show things. We can shift, change, morph 18 00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:38.079 and evolve. And again it's quick thing. Will send you twenty five as 19 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:42.079 our way of saying thanks so much for participating and we're going to be drawing. 20 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:45.840 You know, one lucky participants going to win two hundred and fifty dollars 21 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:49.959 coming up real soon. Give you some some summer shopping spree money. So 22 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:55.040 again, beatby growth podcom takes less than five minutes and we'd love to hear 23 00:01:55.079 --> 00:02:01.439 from you. Second quick thing is that we are in the process of figuring 24 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:05.359 out the next stage of our segment. So we've been doing this thing Monday, 25 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:07.439 Wednesday, Friday where we'd bring like a show and tell peace and I 26 00:02:07.479 --> 00:02:13.360 loved doing that. The last month or so, Dan just had a baby 27 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:17.000 and emily's been on vacation. It's summertime, you know, you know how 28 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:21.479 it is. So we're going to have some sort of show and Tel segment 29 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:24.240 type stuff coming up that we're iterating on. But don't want you to just 30 00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:29.400 think that we tried it and now it's just disappeared into thin air. Some 31 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:32.360 new format is coming and we're thinking about many things as we kind of go 32 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:36.479 into to q three, which is shocking to say that here at sweet fish 33 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:40.360 were jump it into q three. Anyway. All right, let's dive in. 34 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:46.800 Today the throwback featured conversation. Professional Freedom isn't a pipe dream. With 35 00:02:46.919 --> 00:03:00.000 Chris Walker, enjoy as you build the skills, you build confidence in yourself 36 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:06.319 and when you have the confidence that ends up leading to the ability to realize 37 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:12.759 the freedom in the professional world. Well, welcome everybody to the Hashtag sale 38 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:15.199 series on BB growth. I'm your shiny boy co host, Patrick Downs, 39 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:20.319 and today I'm massively excited to be joined by Chris Walker, the CEO of 40 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:24.080 refine labs. Today we're talking about professional freedom and an eagles somewhere crying out 41 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:30.879 in the distance, and I have titled Today's Episode Independence Cast Day. I 42 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:36.319 hope that plans. Probably not, but but, Chris, I would appreciate 43 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:38.560 if you could not make fun of that and please have some Cordr Patrick, 44 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:43.439 what's up? Man, really happy to be here. I am a happy 45 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:46.919 panda doc customer. So was good too could be to be invited here. 46 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:53.719 And and yeah, I mean I I have been an entrepreneur all my life. 47 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:59.520 That was locked in a job running side hustles for the first half of 48 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:05.000 my career and now feel very lucky, on the topic of professional freedom, 49 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:10.719 to be free to control my own destiny, to control my own compensation, 50 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:16.079 to control the things that I do based on my core values, not on 51 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:19.720 the values of other people that are have a higher title than me in an 52 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:25.120 organization, to be creative and innovate and do things that I believe in the 53 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:29.360 might not be accepted inside of companies. And so, for all those reasons, 54 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:32.079 I just feel like in a really great place. It's not for everyone. 55 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:36.759 Not everyone would be successful in a situation like this. A lot of 56 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:44.439 people are a lot better employees and they are owners or entrepreneurs or full freelancers 57 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:46.279 or however you want to look at it, which is fine as long as 58 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:51.639 you recognize what's most important for you. And so that's a little little context. 59 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:56.240 I appreciate that. And I was Ting through your post again and at 60 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:58.680 one point you said I am free, like it came out of nowhere, 61 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:00.839 like could just burst from the night. I was wondering if that happened while 62 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:05.319 you were still working somewhere and you came to the conclusion that I actually do 63 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:08.959 have control over actions and what I do, or if it was when you 64 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:13.920 actually take go out on your own. Yeah, so it's been a it 65 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:17.319 was a long progression. It will be. It will be a long progression 66 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:21.199 for most people unless it's a very natural thing, which is you probably don't 67 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:28.240 need to listen to this podcast. And so for me, at like twenty 68 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:30.959 three, I always knew that I wanted to run my own business and work 69 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:34.720 for myself. I was building e commerce stores in my bedroom at two in 70 00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:40.680 the morning on Saturday night and going to my job during the day because I 71 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:44.639 like doing those things. At the beginning of my career I had a lot 72 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:47.079 of student debt from a really good college that I went to that I'm grateful 73 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:48.879 for, but I took on debt to do that. I wasn't in a 74 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:53.959 financial position to make that leap. I also think, as I reflect on 75 00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:57.839 it, that I didn't have the skills that I needed in order to to 76 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:02.160 do what I'm doing today. It required time. The first step in doing 77 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:08.399 that was when I was around twenty seven years old, where I was in 78 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:13.439 a job that I had reached a point where I wasn't enjoying it anymore. 79 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:15.879 I was stuck. I couldn't innovate, all the things that I love to 80 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.000 do. I wasn't able to do, which got me frustrated, and I 81 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:21.600 think a lot of this will resonate with a lot of people, which is 82 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:27.199 that I eventually looked at myself and I was like, why am I staying 83 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:30.120 in this job that I don't like? I do not need to do this. 84 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:34.759 I'm in control of this situation, and so if I'm in control and 85 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:40.680 I'm accountable to this, I can either suck it up and continue to go 86 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:43.199 to this job that I don't like and try and figure out if there's a 87 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:48.079 way that I can change what's happening inside of that job to reflect to make 88 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:51.439 me more happy, or if I'm not able to do that, I have 89 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:55.800 the freedom to leave. Either freedom to leave, I have the freedom to 90 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:58.680 go get another job, I have a freedom to go start my own company, 91 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:00.759 I have the freedom to do anything that I want. I think a 92 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:05.120 lot of people and I experienced this early in my career. It's like I 93 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:09.920 didn't feel like I had that choice. I felt like I was stuck, 94 00:07:09.959 --> 00:07:15.800 and so it takes a lot of like time and skill development and confidence building 95 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:19.879 and professional development to be in a position where you can, but you can 96 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:25.480 get there. Everyone can. Did the realization happen before you had developed the 97 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:29.079 skills and then you went head first into developing them even further? Was it 98 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:31.920 kind of at the same time? So when I when I left that job, 99 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:39.759 actually went into another one, and that change was the beginning process of 100 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:45.560 me figuring out that I'm just not built to work for somebody else. I'm 101 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:50.279 just not. I need the ability to do things that a lot of people 102 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:54.160 think are dumb. Like I'm say this a lot, a lot of people 103 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:58.319 will resonate. If I worked for somebody else, they would have shut down 104 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:01.199 my linkedin in August of two thousand and nineteen before any of this happened. 105 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.000 And that's just the way it is and that's how so I need that space 106 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:09.800 to do the things that I believe in that most people don't believe in at 107 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:16.439 the time. And it's just a it's one, commit to whatever you're trying 108 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:18.360 to do, if it's to work for yourself, it's to get better, 109 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:22.839 it's to get a promotion, commit to it, do the things to build 110 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:26.720 the skills that you need to be successful, and then, three, just 111 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:31.600 go for it. But as you build the skills, you build confidence in 112 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:35.960 yourself and when you have the confidence, that ends up leading to the ability 113 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:41.279 to realize the freedom and the professional world. At least that's how it happened 114 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:46.360 for me. Yeah, I hope that more people start realizing that, because 115 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:50.840 a lot of people kind to me specifically about Linkedin, and almost every single 116 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.720 person I've interviewed has been incredibly anxious before we started about like Hey, can 117 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.440 you not ask questions about this? I don't want to talk about this, 118 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.120 like I'm talking to like an a, this actor or something right there. 119 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.000 That worried. I'm sure you runner that all the time, but I used 120 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:07.759 to feel that way and then I just stopped giving a shit and I started 121 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:11.919 posting stuff that like resonate with me and I got lucky enough that my company 122 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:15.039 didn't care. But the reality is, though, that people do right. 123 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:18.440 I mean I've never been in a situation where I've been reprimanded, but if 124 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:24.159 you heard of situations like that, for sure, like whether you are reprimanded 125 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:28.919 or because of the culture of the organization, you don't even post to have 126 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.919 the opportunity to be reprimanded. I think most people fall into that position where 127 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:39.200 it's just not not viewed in the right way from a company standpoint. Like 128 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:43.559 for me to work in a company and then post about all the dumb shit 129 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:48.080 that I see companies do would probably get me fired. Right. It's just 130 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:52.240 the truth, and so I think a lot of people working companies where that 131 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:56.480 type of behavior is frowned upon. Yeah, I mean even I did a 132 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:01.679 like a session for my team on Linkedin and almost every single person said they 133 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.120 felt like they couldn't be there their true self. Yes, on social media, 134 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:09.279 it's true. Do you think people like in leadership positions have an advantage 135 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:11.440 there, though, or it's like, all right, maybe they can do 136 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:16.559 it, but people, and I see row maybe can't. I think at 137 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:22.080 the surface I could understand why people would think that way, but I think 138 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:28.519 if you look really deep it's not any different. I think it's more about 139 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:35.399 the person that's the marketing manager how they subjectively feel and that prevents them from 140 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:39.080 posting. But I think if you had two people that were posting the same 141 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:43.080 stuff and the only difference was that their seniority was different, I actually don't 142 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:46.759 think that it would be viewed differently from an internal perspective. From an external 143 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:52.600 perspective, there's a different story, but internally, I'm not sure if any 144 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:54.519 of my employees are listening to this. Please start posting steward shit. I'm 145 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:58.200 likenke then to test his theory. Yeah, let's see what happens. It 146 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:01.480 would be interesting. Yeah, I still be the clip to it like it's 147 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:05.759 everything. So I was curious as well. On a point from your post. 148 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:11.480 You had said that there were some decisions being made that did not align 149 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:15.080 with your values and that you felt like you would have the ability to speak 150 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:20.000 up about that. Is that something you did while you're working for other people? 151 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:24.879 Yeah, whether they I mean, the most obvious one that comes to 152 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:31.720 mind for me is in companies that do things that are in their best interest, 153 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:35.240 knowingly not in the best interest of their customers, in order to hit 154 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:37.360 their own goals, which does not align with the way that I see the 155 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:41.000 world, and so I think that, if you think about it, there's 156 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:46.039 a million permutations of something like that that could happen in the company that doesn't 157 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:50.240 align with either values or strategic vision. Like I recognize it, a lot 158 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:54.159 of people don't have the strategic vision that I have for and how I see 159 00:11:54.200 --> 00:12:01.320 the world. But, like my my vision is very much so misaligned with 160 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:07.519 a majority of venture back companies, and so it would be hard for me 161 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:11.360 to continue to support an organization that doesn't align with the way I see the 162 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:15.919 world. And so that's kind of like the realization that took me a pretty 163 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.799 long time to get to, but that's where I am now. What does 164 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:22.759 it sound like to start speaking up against that? Like if somebody did feel 165 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:24.159 that land, and a lot of people do, but they don't say anything 166 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:28.000 like. Is there a good way to go about that, to actually a 167 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:35.720 net change? Yeah, I mean the easiest two ways that I've found to 168 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:41.399 enact change in in an organization is the most the most important one is to 169 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:48.320 remove your subjective opinion and put it in speaking in the words of a customer. 170 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:50.799 And so if you want to get something done, like we should build 171 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:54.840 this product, or we should do this instead, or we should adjust our 172 00:12:54.919 --> 00:13:01.639 pricing model, then I would run a non bias survey to customers. Non 173 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:03.720 Bias mean you don't ask leading questions so that they tell you the answer that 174 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:09.480 you want, like a real survey or qualitative or anything, and then go 175 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:13.360 back to executive and say, Hey, I know you wanted to do x, 176 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:16.039 Y and Z with the product, but here's what customers say. What 177 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.720 do you think about that? So that's one that's one way that I found 178 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:24.440 that work for all. The second thing is to back it up with just 179 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:31.080 objective data, and so an example of that might be, you know, 180 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:35.919 I know that we want to continue to generate all these leads we've been running. 181 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:39.919 We've been doing this content syndication for the past thirty six months. We've 182 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:43.320 gotten a hundred thousand leads from it. We've spent this much money. Fifty 183 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.960 dollars a lead. So we spent whatever that is, five million dollars or 184 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:50.000 something, if I can do the math in my head, and we got 185 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:54.200 this much revenue and like the math, that doesn't seem to make sense to 186 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:56.919 me. I'm thinking that we might want to take some of the money that 187 00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:01.919 we're doing over here that's non productive and move it to something like this. 188 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.879 What do you think about that? And those are a couple ways that I 189 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:09.080 think are good ways to approach it and not. What we're doing is dumb. 190 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:11.879 You guys are not going in the right direction. I don't feel like 191 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:16.879 that is the right way to approach it. And so yeah, those are 192 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:24.080 some of the things that I've figured out more strategic and eloquent things, ways 193 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:28.080 to approach it then when I was younger, because I know a couple people 194 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.679 that feel the same way that, but they probably spend most of their time 195 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:35.039 on that topic like scribbling it in a notebook or plotting revenge inside of their 196 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:39.360 head. It's, instead of doing something about it. Well, why do 197 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:41.519 you think that fear exist? Is it mostly just like I don't want to 198 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:45.919 be a homeless person and that that doesn't exist in a capitalist society, or 199 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:52.399 is there something greater there? I think it's hard to see all of the 200 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:58.159 options when you're so narrowed in. Right, like when I was in some 201 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:01.559 of those companies, one I had bills to pay, so I like couldn't 202 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:05.919 lose my job, right. So even the idea of putting yourself in a 203 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:11.320 position where you might is scary for people. And so it just goes back 204 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:16.360 to the framework at the beginning. Commit build skills. Once you have the 205 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.879 skills, you realize that the world is abundant, that if this company decided 206 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:22.759 to fire you could go and get a job at a hundred other companies, 207 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.799 or you could immediately go and take three contract roles and make twice as much 208 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:33.720 money as you are in this one company, working part time. Like both 209 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:37.639 of those things are more than possible. And so when you have those options, 210 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:43.440 it then all empowers you to be more direct. That's the way that 211 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:46.639 I've found that it works. And then the last thing that I'm thinking about 212 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:50.360 is, like, when I was challenging the views, I took myself out 213 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.960 of my role and I put myself in the what if I was the advisor 214 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:58.320 to the CEO? What would I tell them then? And so it was 215 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:02.759 always thinking of the best interest of the customer and the company, not about 216 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:07.000 what was in the best interest for me. And so when if you can 217 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:11.039 remove that element as best you can and feel true to that, then what 218 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:15.799 you're saying is the right thing to say. And yes, there will be 219 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:19.960 instances where you're in the wrong company and you get fired for that and, 220 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:22.679 to be honest, you wanted to get fired. If you get fired for 221 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:27.200 doing that, it's actually a good thing. That's hard to see sometimes. 222 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:32.159 It's like it's a hard thing to in art, but I agree. I 223 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:34.440 mean, I think people limit themselves a lot. Thing that the word dust. 224 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:37.080 I like. I'm just this. People wouldn't want to hear from me. 225 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.399 I hear that all the time and I talked about Linkedin. Really, 226 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:42.519 there's nothing I could say that someone else wouldn't say. I don't have any 227 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:45.399 value to add. It's so common and some of the people saying that or 228 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:49.000 that from the brightest people I know. And I'm like you talking about exactly 229 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:52.200 what were you thinking when you were saying stuff like that? Like what was 230 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:56.200 it coming from? Logic or was it just fear? Who's just like, 231 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:00.639 look at this, I guy, Dave Garrehard. He's getting a million, 232 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:06.039 ten million views on every post. Like there's so many people out here posting 233 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.119 I'm not bringing anything new to the table. It's all bullshit. It's all 234 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:12.160 bullshit. You tell yourself not to do something, it's just excuses, and 235 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:18.519 so I've started to frame it in a different way in my mind. So, 236 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.640 like every critical decision I've made in the last twelve months, I was 237 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:26.640 scared because it was it was a critical decision because it was paving new ground 238 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:32.599 in my life or my career. And when you're thinking about doing it, 239 00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:37.039 it's scary and then once you do it it's not scary. And so that's 240 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:41.960 and it's if I had not made. There's probably like three or four key 241 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.799 ones. By not made those decisions, I really don't feel like where I 242 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:49.720 would be where I am today. Well, were those key decisions? The 243 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:56.039 one that really sticks out into my in my mind is I had this thislike 244 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:03.559 real feeling that if come an he stopped building stupid trade show booths and started 245 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.200 doing field marketing events. But the field marketing event was an event to create 246 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:10.559 content and bring value to the audience, not to drive leads that you could 247 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:14.160 cold call them the next day. Then you could build an event. You 248 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.079 could divide fifty people and you could have a thought leader there, you could 249 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.119 interview them, you could take q Anda, you would make a ninety minute 250 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:25.599 video and then the video asset becomes the value of the event, not the 251 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:29.400 people that that show up. And so that was my theory. And then 252 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.720 if a company was spending a million dollars on a trade show, then what 253 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:37.400 if they, instead of doing a million dollars a year on trade shows, 254 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.119 they only did three hundred and they spent the seven hundred doing these events, 255 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:44.559 one a week across the country, and they would if they did one a 256 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:48.720 week across the country, then they would theoretically have fifty two long form video 257 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:53.079 assets they could then break down and create a ton of content. And so 258 00:18:53.519 --> 00:19:00.160 my my objective was to do one to understand what it what it was like. 259 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.480 I needed it, to taste it so that and also to show the 260 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.640 companies that I work for what good looks like. Instead of doing this, 261 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:10.039 you could do this. Here's what the output is, here's what the Roy 262 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:11.839 is, here's how you distribute the content, here's what to do, here's 263 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:17.079 how much it's going to cost. Go get it done. And and so 264 00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:19.359 I had every I had everything I needed to do the event and Jock for 265 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:22.720 on, which we did in January, which was amazing, and I had 266 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:26.279 everything that I needed to make the decision. I knew how much the event 267 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:27.079 was going to cost. I knew how much it was going to cost a 268 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:30.680 fly the videographers there. I knew how much the video of editing was going 269 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:33.079 to cost. On you, how much the food was going to cost. 270 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:36.200 I had all in front of me. was like a Twelvezero bill and I 271 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:40.599 was like, what if I say yes to this and then nobody shows up? 272 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:42.519 It would be a huge waste. It would be a waste of money, 273 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:47.079 I would embarrass myself in front of Josh, telling myself all these stupid 274 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:51.039 things, and then it was sitting on my desk and one day I was 275 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:55.599 just like fuck it, like we're doing this and I just in. It 276 00:19:55.960 --> 00:20:00.400 just came down to commit and then go and get it done, and forty 277 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:03.680 people showed up. We created an awesome video. It gave me the confidence 278 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:06.680 to do the next one with Justin wells the next month and we would have 279 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:11.119 done one in San Francisco and Austin, in Toronto and Boston and Chicago if 280 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:12.599 this hadn't happened. We had them all lined up. That had to get 281 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.799 canceled. And so, like now I'm ready to go and do those things 282 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:19.519 that I was at one point scared to do. And I knew, I 283 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:26.599 know for sure that the twelvezero spent drove in enormous sorrow. I and so 284 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.200 first time I ever noticed you was that video with Josh. Know what it 285 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:33.519 is? Yeah, I remember seeing because I love Josh, and I was 286 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:36.680 like, Oh, who's this guy sitting next to him? Is Very nice 287 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:38.799 hair. I should check them out. And so that, I mean, 288 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:44.720 that is like the the key point, if a company's listening, to think 289 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:48.680 about whether the idea of doing their trade show booth that a hundred fifty people 290 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:52.680 stumble by when they're looking for coffee, versus doing something like that was someone 291 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:57.240 that has fiftyzero followers in the exact target market. The year going after and 292 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:03.039 doing the event and getting exposure to the people that already follow them and elevating 293 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:07.319 your brand to where their brand is like. There's so many strategic reasons for 294 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:11.519 the twelvezero investment to do the video and the whole event that I just find 295 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:18.119 to be a better like event strategy. So that was one. That was 296 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:22.319 one point when I was I had all the stuff, I was scared to 297 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:26.240 make a decision. Made the decision. It turned out amazing. If it 298 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:30.799 didn't turn out amazing, I would have learned a bunch of Shit. And 299 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:36.519 so either way, like I think we even myself a very guilty of this, 300 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:41.640 telling stories in your head that prevent you from moving forward. And that 301 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:44.920 was when you're on your own. Right when you made that decision I had, 302 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.400 I was me and one other person and the company. Yeah, so 303 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:49.759 do you think you would have made that decision if you were like the head 304 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:55.640 of marketing somewhere without a phone? I would have made the decision, whether 305 00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:57.440 or not I would have been allowed to make the decision as a different story, 306 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.519 which is fascinating if you think about the head of marketing not being able 307 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:06.799 to make that decision. It's fascinating, but it's true. And so I 308 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:11.880 just when I think about some of these things, it's really interesting to frame 309 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.319 it up like if you're the head of marketing, if it was your money, 310 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.400 would you spend it? If it was your hundred thousand dollars, that 311 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:22.400 you're building out that booth at the industry conference and you need to have a 312 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:26.039 positive R why, to put food on the table for your family and send 313 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:30.160 your kids to college, would you still put that hundred thousand dollars in that 314 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:33.920 trade show? Would you do something different? I'm really curious because I would 315 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:38.279 have to say that ninety nine point nine percent of people would not spend a 316 00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:41.279 hundred thousand dollars of their own money on that event and expect a Positi of 317 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.240 Ury. Yet when it's not their own money, they love doing it. 318 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:48.440 It's also just things that have been done in the past. They're just like 319 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.200 repeating. You don't fired for building a trade a booth at a trade show 320 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:56.799 for the one that you've been going for for the past twenty years. You 321 00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.640 don't get fired for doing all of the stuff that's accepted. DOING ABM to 322 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:06.279 make it set to your organization feel like you're doing something innovative. But the 323 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:10.079 paradox there's like all those things became standard because someone tried something new with the 324 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:12.880 first place. So it's just such strange thinking. It's bizarre, man, 325 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:17.559 but I'm glad that I saw you in that video. Yeah, that was 326 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.559 like, Oh man, I was like Travis Kickers Walker. I like that 327 00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:25.640 guy. Jody was really smart shit that night he did. Yeah, he's 328 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:27.440 a smart guy. It's funny when you put a camera at smart people, 329 00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:30.440 like a content comes out. Yeah, man. And so, like the 330 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:34.039 thesis on this is you could go around to every city. There's a there's 331 00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:38.079 a Josh Broun, not exactly Josh Brown, but there's someone like Josh Brown 332 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:41.440 and every in every major city, and you go around and collect that. 333 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:45.720 Dave Gerhart and Boston, which is one that I have on the docket that 334 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.119 would love to make happen. You know some peeple, someone in Austin, 335 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.200 Texas. So when in Toronto, those are to get back to the original 336 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:56.279 point, that's like one time where I felt felt scared to make a decision. 337 00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:02.440 That wasn't very scary, just like, just like posting the first time 338 00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:04.559 on Linkedin. Yeah, guys, just post on like then. Just do 339 00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:11.720 it. I'm telling you, nothing bad's going to happen. Might actually so 340 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:14.319 to end with scared in the audience. I think that's a good place. 341 00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:18.759 Chris, is there anything that you want to plug here on the plugs out, 342 00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:22.519 so if you liked what you're heard on this podcast or on this one, 343 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:26.640 we host podcast called the stated Demanda and there's forty episodes up there. 344 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:32.039 We're putting three to five up every week for people that are looking for a 345 00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:37.440 forward thinking, unique way to approach the man JEM and think about marketing. 346 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:40.799 Would highly recommend that you check that out. There's a ton of different content 347 00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:47.039 types, a lot of detailed, both strategic and deep tactical work going on 348 00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:49.160 there. So I'd recommend that you check it out. I gotta check out 349 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:52.759 the PODCAST. Honestly, that's going to be what I did this weekend. 350 00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:56.000 I think right on. I appreciate you being here, man, I really 351 00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:00.559 really do be. Tob growth is brought to you by the team at sweet 352 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.799 fish media. Here at sweetfish, we produce podcast for some of the most 353 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:08.920 innovative brands in the world and we help them turn those podcasts into Microvideos linkedin 354 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:14.039 content, blog post and more. We're on a mission to produce every leader's 355 00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:25.119 favorite show. Want more information, visit Sweet Fish Mediacom