Pods and Plays for Marketing Success, with Bhaskar Roy

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:21.640 Today, on B Two B growth, I'm excited to have BASCAR Roy with 3 00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:26.600 me. He's the head of marketing over at Worcado and integration and workflow automation 4 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:29.839 company. BASCAR, it's great to have you with us. Same here, 5 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:34.920 bend. Looking forward to our conversation. Yes, we had originally connected back 6 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:39.039 in February, I believe, and you guys are doing some really fascinating things 7 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:43.640 at Workado that we're gonna learn from and lean into, uh, specifically around 8 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:47.079 using pods and in sort of plays. Before we get there, though, 9 00:00:47.479 --> 00:00:50.679 just tell us a little bit about what you're focused on these days, Bascar, 10 00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:55.079 and what gets you really excited and passionate about marketing. Yeah, me, 11 00:00:55.079 --> 00:00:58.240 it's it's it's amazing. You know, I think marketing is one of 12 00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:02.640 those things, but that is a constant change that happens and if you look 13 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:06.400 at from our standpoint, yes, you know there has been a little bit 14 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:10.159 of softening in the market and as a result of that, you know a 15 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:14.439 number of things. One is we are seeing that people are devoting or spending 16 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:17.920 more and more, are paying more attention, I would say to automation. 17 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:19.519 Yeah, right, because that's a way for them to scale. So we 18 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:25.000 are starting to see a good inbound coming in other people requesting more or US 19 00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:27.560 being more relevant to what that is, and as a result of that, 20 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:33.000 you know, our messaging is likely changing some of the place that we had 21 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:36.879 originally thought about. You know, the messaging around those are changing as well. 22 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:40.000 But that's what's the exciting part about it. Yeah, always having to 23 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:42.680 kind of be on your toes, pivot with the market, you know, 24 00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:45.760 do what's given to you, but also, you know, figure out the 25 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:49.640 way to be most presentable and most exciting to those potential clients. So, 26 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:52.480 okay, with that in mind, we're gonna talk about pots in place, 27 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:55.159 and here's what we had talked about back in February. Basically, what you 28 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:57.840 had done, and you can correct me if I'm wrong on any piece of 29 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:00.200 this, but you took a year of data and you asked like, what's 30 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:05.200 the average deal size, what's the wind rate, what's the velocity of new 31 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:08.039 deals, and then, with that information, you started to determine what are 32 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:14.039 plays that we want to run, and then groups of people specifically tasked to 33 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:16.960 run those. Essentially, it was a pods and plays type of strategy. 34 00:02:17.479 --> 00:02:22.560 I know I've vastly oversimplified the process there, but filling the gaps for us 35 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:25.759 about what was important for this transition, for Worcado and what you guys have 36 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:30.879 been up to now over what the last eight plus months? Yeah, so 37 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:32.479 thanks, thanks, man these, thanks for setting this up, you know. 38 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:38.199 So I'll step back a bit before getting into the details. So, 39 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:40.319 if you look at work out of we had a platform, right, it's 40 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:46.520 a it's a platform that enables you to automate your business processes by connecting and 41 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:49.479 integrating with your Tex stacts. Right. So, as you can imagine, 42 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:53.120 the use cases of what can be what you can use work cut off out 43 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:55.960 a lot. Right. You can use it to automate your sales and marketing 44 00:02:57.000 --> 00:02:59.719 process so, for example, your lead, general lead, you know, 45 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:05.080 the way you do lead routing, etcetera. Financial processes like order to cash, 46 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:07.599 procure to pay a child, processes, onboarding, off boarding people. 47 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:13.240 There are so many departments and so many different use cases. So when you 48 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:15.680 look at and you know, the other reality that came in at that time 49 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:22.599 is that people don't really buy platforms, people buy solutions to problems. So 50 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:25.080 when you look at it from that particular Lens, you start thinking about, 51 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:28.960 okay, what are some of the key things that our customers are using word 52 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:31.840 color for and what are the buying work Cldo for? So that was the 53 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:37.960 I would say that was the genesis of looking at place. And the the 54 00:03:38.039 --> 00:03:39.680 great thing is, you know, we have one of our advisers. His 55 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:45.000 name is Dan Rodgers. He was the Cmo of service now, where he 56 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:47.800 grew service now to, you know, just multi billion dollar company, and 57 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:53.479 now he had go to market operations at rubrick. So as we talked to 58 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:57.879 them, he introduced us to this concept of place and so we took that 59 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:00.080 to heart and then we looked at just like saying, we looked at one 60 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:04.439 year data. Look at, you know, how our customers buying WORKADO. 61 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:10.199 What are some of these key use cases that they're looking at? And then 62 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:13.039 from there we started looking at, okay, what does that wind rate look 63 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:15.839 like for each of those use cases? What does our spor of its sales 64 00:04:15.839 --> 00:04:20.519 price look like for each of those use cases, reclosing them faster or slower? 65 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:25.199 Based on those use cases and based on all of that data, managing 66 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:29.519 the data, we came up with the hypothesis of certain place that we wanted 67 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:32.879 to go to market with. So that's how that's how it originated. Yeah, 68 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:36.079 I love I think thanks for adding color to the picture that we're painting 69 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:41.879 here. I think that's really helpful insight. Before you can get like mass 70 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:44.399 adoption, even if you know you want to run several plays or you have 71 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:47.160 all these ideas, you're gonna have to test it right. You'RE gonna have 72 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:50.480 to figure out at a small scale what works about this. How do we 73 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:55.439 implement? What was the first part you guys assembled? How did you originally 74 00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:58.959 start this process? Yeah, so we looked at, you know, we 75 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:01.600 have, we serve three different segments, you know, in our in our 76 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:06.800 company, one is in the in the market, one is our commercial segment 77 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:11.439 and then there is enterprise segment and the third one is, you know, 78 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:15.680 Workardo can also be used as an embedded platform. So, for example, 79 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:18.839 if you want to from your application, if you want to, you know, 80 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:24.319 integrate with other APPs and serve that as a part of your product itself, 81 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:27.160 you can embed white label work cut and embed as a part of that. 82 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:30.519 And these three segments we looked at and then we narrowed down on the 83 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:36.120 commercial segment and we selected our first play. Two mainly, I would say, 84 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:41.920 are the main use case that we saw. People were buying US far, 85 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:46.079 and so it was in the commercial segment. One very specific use case 86 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:50.600 to a very specific buyer and the buyer was head of business technology and it 87 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:55.439 was about, you know, getting them. The use case was ordered to 88 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:57.959 cash. So if you think of order to cash, it is, you 89 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:00.480 know, when you get a sale down, after the sale happens at the 90 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:04.079 order to come comes in, all the way to how do you recognize the 91 00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:06.560 revenue? How do you build you a customer? How do you provision your 92 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:11.079 customer? How do you get them to go live? So that entire entire 93 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:15.879 cycle of order to cash the customer value. That's the use case that we 94 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:18.839 saw prominently and that's where we started. So good place to start. Okay. 95 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.920 So I wonder, and this would be more of like a larger scale 96 00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:26.600 business question, but for you guys at Workado, are you thinking more about 97 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:30.839 like jobs to be done by the what you provide an automation? Are you 98 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:33.800 thinking of I C P and like what kind of language do you guys use 99 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:38.240 their yeah, we look at ice P, so we protectually look at I 100 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:41.639 C P means. Who is our ideal customer profile? What does that look 101 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:45.680 like? And then what do they use Workado for, you know, across 102 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:47.360 the board and then found the place around it. Yeah, that's great. 103 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:51.600 Okay. So then the other distinction that I'd be interested in is some people 104 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:55.839 might hear this and they go, okay, is the pod set up sort 105 00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:00.639 of like integrated marketing? Is there some differences there? How would you say, 106 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:04.319 like pods and plays versus integrated marketing? Where are they similar? Where 107 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:10.199 they're different? That's that's a great question. In fact, we we grappled 108 00:07:10.279 --> 00:07:14.759 with that ourselves initially. So Integrated Marketing, I see, is very different. 109 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:19.000 Integrated Marketing is how do you leverage, you know, multiple marketing channels 110 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:24.160 to essentially drive demand, deliver your message, etcetera. Right. So that's 111 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:29.160 integrated marketing. The reason why we call these sales play is mainly because it's 112 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:33.720 very aligned to sales. It is not about demands and or how integrated marketing 113 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:36.560 is. It is end to end funnel. Right. So, for example, 114 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:40.879 this would be how do we drive demand? Let's go back to the 115 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:44.000 audit to cash. How do we drive demand for audit to cash? Yes, 116 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:46.920 we may take an integrated marketing approach to drive demand for order to cash. 117 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:50.600 But then it goes to okay, once the demand comes in, how 118 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:54.439 is our sales team going to talk to them? What does the first meeting 119 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:57.720 that look like? What are the following collaterals that we need to provide to 120 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:01.079 a sales team? What do sales enablement look like? How do we close 121 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:03.040 this customer? And once we close this customer, how do we expand those 122 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:07.800 customers? So you look at a full funnel approach instead of just the integrated 123 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:11.680 marketing, which is just the demand and or, you know, the top 124 00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:16.279 of the funnel aspect. Yeah, that's really helpful and I love that approach. 125 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:18.680 People are trying this in multiple different ways and obviously it also depends the 126 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:24.600 scale at which your organization is at. So as you're you're doing this, 127 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:28.160 who's in the pot itself like, who are you bringing together to really focus 128 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:31.200 on this? Yeah, so it is, as you can imagine, it's 129 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:37.960 extremely cross functional. I would say that the two core personas are product marketing 130 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.440 and demanding, and the way we separate that is demanding is top of the 131 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:46.720 funnel in the sense how do you drive pipeline? What does that look like 132 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:50.039 product marketing, is essentially the middle to bottom of the funnel. How do 133 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:54.480 you really close on that pipeline? What does that look like? But apart 134 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:58.639 from that, there is content folks in that because they're writing very specific content 135 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:03.639 to those place, both top of the funnel content as well as bottom of 136 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.559 the funnel content. We have representation from sales leadership sales enablement, because they 137 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:11.519 are key function in making sure that, you know, we are able to 138 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:15.519 close on the demand that we're generating for this play. And then, you 139 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:18.720 know, depending upon the structure or what the play is about, we even 140 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:22.360 have our partner or channel sales team. If there's a very big channel angle 141 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:26.279 to the way we're going to drive demand for this play, they are part 142 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:28.440 of that as well. So that's, in short, you know as to 143 00:09:28.759 --> 00:09:33.559 what that hard looks like. Now, having said that, it's not that 144 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:37.279 everyone is dedicated to one part. Yeah, that was my next question right, 145 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:41.840 in the sense in them multiple parts, but most of the time you 146 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:45.759 can see the folks who are really dedicated to this a product marketing demands and 147 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:50.120 and content. Those are the folks that are dedicated to a part. Okay, 148 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:52.039 so then when you're implementing the first one and then I think actually when 149 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:56.720 we talked in February, maybe it had ballooned up to maybe nine or so 150 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:01.399 pods. But how are you thinking about? And and maybe this is too 151 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:05.240 nerdy of a question, but I think of where people report and then, 152 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:07.320 if they're a part of a pod, and then other parts of the organization 153 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:11.480 that they're working on. What does reporting look like? Because I love the 154 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:15.720 idea of a pot, but I could see it also messing with certain pieces 155 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:20.120 of where people report and all that. Oh, it is. We are 156 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.000 still learning how to do that. I'm glad to hear you. Don't you 157 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:26.639 aren't perfect. So so it is. It is underving. It is it 158 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:30.279 is changing, right, because all of a sudden you know, as you 159 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:35.240 can imagine, it's no longer the traditional hierarchical approach that people have. Right, 160 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.320 your responsibilities are not just your manager, but your responsibilities are what the 161 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.879 pot is all about, the play is all about, right, and it's 162 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:48.320 unnerving, mainly because you know you're now accountable to the delivery what is needed 163 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:54.080 by your peers in that brood and it's cost functions. So it is unnerving. 164 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:58.440 It requires an organizational change, it requires a cultural change over that. 165 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:03.039 But you know, the great thing is people recognize that that this is the 166 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:07.720 way, essentially, that you have to get some quick winds and success from 167 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:11.960 it, and then it just becomes easier because then people start seeing, okay, 168 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.480 all of a sudden, you know, the demand that we're getting is 169 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:18.759 more qualified, we are closing at a much better clip, and then people 170 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.360 start aligning towards that particular notion of the pod. But yeah, you're right. 171 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:28.720 It messes up your your organization and mainly because you know you are no 172 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:31.519 longer driven by just what your manager is saying. You're driven by what the 173 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:35.720 backlog is and what the requirements are for the pod. Okay, so you 174 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.240 have this inclination that it's going to work because you have some outside voice going, 175 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:43.559 hey, should try pods and plays. There's thought put into the process. 176 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:46.320 You're not just gonna do this haphazardly, but there's also gonna be, 177 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:50.480 like you're alluding to right here, learnings that happen as you implement. So 178 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:54.559 I wonder, going less from a here's what a pod looks like, just 179 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:58.000 more story mode and how it's actually worked out for you guys. Can you 180 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:03.440 explain some of the learnings that you've had happened in real time and some of 181 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:09.919 how that's affected Workado in your team. Yeah, absolutely. So let's let's 182 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:13.720 look at overall. You know, I'll do it before and after, just 183 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:18.080 to give you some kind of storyline around this. So, before we had 184 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:22.320 the part structure, you know, we were doing general demanded right, we 185 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:24.919 would run, say, whatever we paid ads at. There are certain hypothesis 186 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.799 around messaging. All of those things we would be running and then the demand 187 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:33.919 would come in and then get routed to whatever, a SDRs and as in 188 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:37.879 order to fulfill that. Am Right. So that was that particular notion which 189 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.200 is there. And when we went to this part structure, all of a 190 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:43.720 sudden we said that we are not going to do generic marketing anymore. We 191 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:48.240 are going to very specifically message around order to cash. The persona is going 192 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.960 to be this. That's what our ads well run, that's what our message 193 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:56.639 will be running. A SDRS will be trained in order to just talk about 194 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:01.480 order to cash and become experts at a specialist started. Our as will be 195 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:05.200 trained so that when a lead comes in around this, they will be able 196 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:07.440 to fulfill that particular demand. So, as you can see, all of 197 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:11.480 a sudden there is a specialization that is kicking in as a part of this, 198 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:16.679 and so the I wouldn't say objections. So the pushback was, oh, 199 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:18.639 but we have done this when it is working well, why should we 200 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:24.240 change it? And then initial part of it you will struggle, right in 201 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.159 the sense it just won't work out of the out of the box, just 202 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:30.240 because you have you're saying that this is the right way to do it. 203 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:33.039 But as long as you get people's mindset saying that you know, this is 204 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:37.960 a way that we can scale, as we can build parts and scale and 205 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.960 be able to address our customers need in a much better way, as long 206 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:46.080 as they're aligned to that particular concept. They have to get into this mode 207 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:50.159 of experimentation. And that was the change it right, because you know everyone 208 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:52.879 would come and say, but this is already working, we are delivering and 209 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:56.639 beating our quarterly targets. Why should we make this change? So it was 210 00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:01.399 the change aspect of it, which was pretty from an organization standpoint and we 211 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:05.679 have to learn through that. So initial part of it was, you know, 212 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:09.200 okay, let's do both the genetic you know, if you have an 213 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:13.320 ad budget, let's divide it. Some goes to the part structure, some 214 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:18.000 do the genetic and let's see, not based on how many leads we are 215 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:22.039 getting, how much are we converting to the quality, this quality of leads 216 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:28.360 coming in and a conversion. If the part is converting better, let's move 217 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.399 all the budget towards that. So that had to be some of these experiments 218 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.919 that we had to do in order to prove that this part structure works such 219 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:39.679 a big piece of this. We've talked a lot actually recently on B two 220 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:43.559 B growth basker about how we report the numbers that we take a look at, 221 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.159 and one of the things is there's there's some new ways of measurement you 222 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:52.159 could think about in marketing, but you're not going to be able to implement 223 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:56.240 those overnight and you just hit on it with this hybrid approach to go, 224 00:14:56.279 --> 00:14:58.480 okay, here's what we're experimenting with, Here's what we're testing while at the 225 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:03.960 same time using the old structure, because that's a helpful conversation to have internally 226 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:07.000 with the marketing team and to have up up in the C suite as well. 227 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:11.559 Right where you're going, okay, this is what we have been measuring, 228 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:15.519 here's a slight shift or a tweak or what we're seeing from our experimentation, 229 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:18.080 and then you can take that to scale. Yeah, and you know, 230 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.399 the the other good thing that worked for us, as you know, 231 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:22.480 going back to and this is this is more of a nuance because of our 232 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:26.120 collowing that platform. There's our sales team. You know, if you look 233 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:31.240 at it, our sales team have to understand like twenty, thirty different use 234 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:35.679 cases because they didn't know whether the customer was coming from it. So I 235 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.000 have to learn about all the H R processes that I need to automate. 236 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:41.240 I have to now become an expert in finance and understand all of this. 237 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.320 I also have to become an expert in I T. I also have to 238 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:48.960 become an expert in this. There was just too much for them to learn 239 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:52.720 to be able to deal with any of the leads. Now, with the 240 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:58.039 specialization, then it becomes simple, mainly because these are specialists. You're specialists 241 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:00.960 in terms of the finance, automatitions of things. You know exactly how to 242 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:06.120 talk about this one thing that you're learning, learning it really well and becoming 243 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:11.399 an expert in that. So that specialization helped them simplify and you know, 244 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.720 figured out round times became better just because they had to focus on a couple 245 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:19.759 of things rather than so many different things. So there's benefits that we probably 246 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:23.000 could have seen coming from a pod structure. Like I think about alignment. 247 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:27.639 If you put people from different parts of the organization together, different even marketing 248 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:30.879 roles and functions together in a pod, they're going to have to work together 249 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.759 closely. Alignment is going to come into play. You could have seen that 250 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:38.080 before and and and seen that coming down the road. I think of experimentation. 251 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:42.519 Also potential there that I would have seen beforehand. But I want to 252 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:48.480 go to maybe have there been some unforeseen benefits of implementing pods in plays that 253 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:52.879 now you can look back over the last several months ago, Oh man, 254 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:56.480 we didn't fully see this coming, but this has been a benefit for our 255 00:16:56.519 --> 00:17:00.480 our marketing team and for Worcado as a whole because of implement station of this. 256 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:03.599 Yeah, so it has, and I think it is. It is 257 00:17:03.640 --> 00:17:08.839 the simplification for our go to market. You know earlier, overall, you 258 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:11.759 know we would means, if you go back to the generic side of things, 259 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:15.680 we would be testing so many different message, so many different side of 260 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:19.400 things, so many different personas. All of a sudden now we're saying that, 261 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:23.480 no, we're going to focus on these three things and simplify the entire 262 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:26.519 go to market all the way from demand and to close. Right. So 263 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:32.400 I think we kind of had a sense that this will help us focus. 264 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:34.799 But you know what the big learning was? We didn't realize how much it 265 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:41.960 will simplify things overall. No longer is the content team just generating content for, 266 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:47.960 you know, just seo purposes, the purposes. It's not se O, 267 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:52.880 it's not about that. It is about converting these kinds of customers. 268 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:56.000 Are Drawing these kinds of folks into the into the funnel. It just became 269 00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:00.359 more purposeful. So I think it just helped a cross the board around where 270 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:04.759 people saw the purpose and it's simplified the go to market overall. That's a 271 00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:10.680 great way of saying it's simple and purposeful. Are Great words to call us 272 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:14.440 back to, which would lead us into the how part of this conversation. 273 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:18.000 Because to me I'm going, okay, you're selling this idea. It's been 274 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:21.559 complicated, it's had some mess to it. Right, still working out some 275 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:23.319 of it, but people being okay, I can see the benefit of this 276 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:26.400 type structure, but I would not know how to get there. So if 277 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:30.160 we placed you, or let's say you put on your your consulting hat for 278 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:33.720 a second, Baskett, what would you say for those that are going, 279 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.880 all right, we want to formulate some sort of pod to test this, 280 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:41.039 where will we start? Yeah, it's a great question. So the first 281 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:45.880 thing I would say is, you know, if you this to me, 282 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:51.400 I think is lends itself well to a product that supports multiple use cases. 283 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:55.880 Right, if you're selling to one buyer and one particular use case, then 284 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:59.519 you don't really need to go through that trigger. You really understand that buyer, 285 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:02.480 you unders and that one use case and you're selling that part may not 286 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:04.960 be the right approach. But if you have a platform like product which can 287 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:10.440 serve multiple buyers multiple use cases, then you know, start diving into it. 288 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.680 And the way to dive into it, you know, is in a 289 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:15.720 couple of different ways. One is, if I was placed into a brand 290 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:19.480 new company or, you know, what's consulting to a company that is a 291 00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:25.319 platform product, I would first talk to the sales team, multiple sales reps, 292 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:27.440 to understand, you know, what is working for them, what is 293 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:30.559 not working for them, what kind of use cases that they are saying? 294 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:33.400 What are they selling? How do they sell? Get understanding of that. 295 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:40.240 Then go to demand and to understand how they're driving pipe and looking at how 296 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:44.160 well that is converting, how the handoffs are working well or not. Then 297 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:47.759 go through, you know, do the due diligence, look at call recordings 298 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:52.880 from customers to see what kind of conversations are customers having, you know, 299 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:56.119 other teams that are having with customers and what are customers saying, because at 300 00:19:56.119 --> 00:20:00.279 the end of the day, you're looking to replicate how your customer is going 301 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.759 to buy your product and create the sales play around it. So getting it 302 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.079 from the customer voice, looking at that as to how they're talking about it, 303 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:11.160 how they're stating their problems, looking at that and then look at the 304 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:14.039 data. Right, once you have the data, then, armed with it, 305 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.599 you have to get now organization buying. That's you have to go to 306 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.880 your C R O or your CEO, your demands and leader and others, 307 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:23.000 saying that, okay, this is a change, here's the reason for that 308 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:26.960 change. Here are the place that we think at the right place to run 309 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.200 and, you know, work with them in order to find. You know 310 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:36.160 that it takes some time before it can take shape because without internal buying from 311 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:40.599 all the various stakeholders who are who are participants in this entire go to market 312 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:45.319 function, you know it won't take off. Yeah, it's internal, then 313 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:48.440 it's external in the way of customers. Then you're saying go back to the 314 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:53.119 data and then bring that up internally to a larger, maybe like c suite 315 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:59.279 level, discussion. I think each of those steps obviously crucial. I like 316 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:03.519 that, regardless of if you're in a company that's at the scale that would 317 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:07.599 need to implement pods immediately. One of the takeaways for me from this conversation 318 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:11.880 is just when you even if you could do this for a project where you 319 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:18.359 were creating some cross functional forced alignment, you're gonna learn things and that's we 320 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:22.880 we've preached that often internally here at sweet fish lately, just talking around the 321 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:29.640 need for those forced conversations, especially in a remote environment, and that happens 322 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:33.720 automatically when you do some of this pod type structure. So any company, 323 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.440 any size, could learn from what you guys are seeing by by tweaking this 324 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:41.279 and and then others that are already at that scale could obviously implement more of 325 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.759 a pod type structure and and and get to buy in needed. When you 326 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:51.519 think of the key elements for helping you form these plays before they get to 327 00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:55.440 the Pod, what was most important to pay attention to? What was most 328 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.759 important to like the key element of the plays that you were going to run? 329 00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:03.680 Yeah, the to me, external. It is very, very much 330 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:08.480 focused around, you know, what are your customers saying in the conversation regarding 331 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:14.599 what they're buying? So it is it is how your customers buy. So 332 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:19.480 listening to your you know, call recordings and having these qualitative discussions with your 333 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:26.359 customers and even potential prospects just to understand, you know, what words are 334 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:29.960 they actually using when they say that? Are they really saying that I have 335 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:33.440 a means, means I want to improve my order to cash, or are 336 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:38.279 they saying something else? So you have to formulate that play around how the 337 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:42.680 customer wants to buy and the problem that they're looking to solve, rather than 338 00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:48.279 inside out right. So I think that's to me that the lynchpin around making 339 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:52.880 that work is is that outside in approach and just always keeping that in mind. 340 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:56.880 What did you guys do to make sure that your insights were correct, 341 00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:00.440 because if you're outside focused, you you could think you're hearing one thing but 342 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.480 it could be another. So like who's in, who's involved in listening to 343 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.440 what customers are saying and actually creating those places? Was it an internal thing 344 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:11.559 or were you hiring externally to create those insights? So it was internal, 345 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:15.160 so we had that's why, you know, sales, this is another big 346 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:18.799 part of it. Sales is such a big, big part of this, 347 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.240 right, because they are the ones who are, you know, day in 348 00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:25.599 and day out, doing these calls right with customers and understanding what they're saying. 349 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:29.359 So sales was a big part of this. And Product Marketing, so 350 00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:33.319 sales and product marketing came together in order to come up with the place. 351 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.200 Now, product marketing obviously looked at the data, etcetera. So they brought 352 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:41.119 that data element to it and then the discussion happened. At these the right 353 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:44.279 place or not? If these are, this is because this is what data 354 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:47.720 is saying, but is that really cool? So it was it was a 355 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:51.400 combination of you know, I would say, the sales leaders and the product 356 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:56.000 marketing leaders coming up with what those this place look like, what those places 357 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:59.160 could look like. Now there is one thing that Benji, we didn't touch 358 00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:03.240 on is it's it's a lot of it is data driven, but some of 359 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:04.880 the place, or I wouldn't say some, one of the places that we 360 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:10.440 always call these we call the flyer place. These are experiments because you want 361 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:14.319 to have some experiments. Right, it's something, some focused, but then 362 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:17.440 you're starting to see some trend come into the market, right, you're starting 363 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:21.359 to see somewhere there are some signs that we are winning over here. You 364 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:25.279 don't want to be so strict that, you know, you don't accommodate for 365 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:29.960 that and lose that opportunity. So we call those flyer place, where we 366 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:33.319 can spin up a pot with maybe not much, maybe just a product, 367 00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:37.359 marketing and demand in person, and then we see how that works. These 368 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:41.880 are experimental place and then you go through that same rigor as if you are, 369 00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:45.440 you know, executing that play with the mind are we are we winning 370 00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:48.519 over here? What does that wind look like? HOW IS OUR SP working? 371 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:52.400 What does the wind rate look like? And then matching that, you 372 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:56.359 know, across the board. So that has to be some flexibility in that, 373 00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:00.720 otherwise you would miss opportunities. Good Point. there. Thanks for for 374 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:04.599 bringing that as well. I wonder when you're thinking of pods. The piece 375 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:08.920 that we also didn't didn't touch on that we need to is how long are 376 00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:14.319 these pods together? What was the initial phase of like how long were they 377 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:18.119 planning on, you know, running this thing, or was it indefinite? 378 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:21.480 What does that side look like? Yeah, so when we went into it, 379 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:23.599 we knew that it would be at least a year because we didn't see 380 00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:29.160 any science as to why those would change. We realized that messaging, etcetera, 381 00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:32.640 could change, but the core use case won't change. So we went 382 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:34.839 into it. Where why we had those core plays, which we call long 383 00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:38.240 running, which we don't. We have not put a time limit on, 384 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:41.720 you know, Benjing, because we think that those are core ways. So 385 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:45.640 understand that there are science that okay, this is not working anymore. We 386 00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:49.400 think we'll continue those right. So that's one aspect of it. So those 387 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:53.640 are core plays. Now the flyerplace totally depend right in the sense these are 388 00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:57.680 experiments, but we give it a good at least six months, because that 389 00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:00.839 you need that time to make sure that you have the right learnings there and 390 00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:06.480 you're not abandoning something where it could have the potential. So for the flyerplace, 391 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:07.359 you know, we kind of say that, you know, we have 392 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:11.720 to try for at least six months before we give up. So that's that's 393 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:14.880 how we look at it. Okay. Well, my last question for you 394 00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:18.279 as we start to wrap up here, bastards, just when you're thinking of 395 00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:23.640 what this process has entailed from start to where you are now, somewhere in 396 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:27.599 this this messy sort of middle, you've seen some success, but you're also, 397 00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:32.200 you know, continuing to tweak and make it better. What are the 398 00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:34.680 things that you would tell people who want to take this approach to watch out 399 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:40.559 for? What should we stay clear of? Any any key learnings there as 400 00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:44.200 we as we start to wrap up today? Yeah, so I would say 401 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:48.240 that, you know, you have to somewhat commit to it, because this 402 00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:51.240 is as an organization. You know, and I know that it may be 403 00:26:51.319 --> 00:26:53.640 hard to say that, how can we commit to something which may or may 404 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:56.839 not work? But you have to. And and the reason for that is 405 00:26:57.319 --> 00:27:02.759 if, as an organizationally, you're not changing towards that, most likely you 406 00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:06.079 will not see the success. Right. So, if your demands and is 407 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.920 not focused on it, if you're product marketing, your content team, your 408 00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:14.880 sales team and not really working together in order to make that play work, 409 00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:18.440 you will either get most likely you might even get just either false negatives or 410 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:22.599 something like that, or false positive. So be aware of that and so 411 00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:26.799 commit to it as an organization for a period of time to see and make 412 00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:30.759 it work, because it will take time. It's a pretty big shift right. 413 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.880 It's no longer generic marketing. You're specializing, you're going after it in 414 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:37.759 some focused ways, in a very focused manner, and you have to commit 415 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:41.240 to that as an organization. So I think that's, to me, the 416 00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:47.839 learning overall is make sure that you're committing to an organizationally, plus you're getting 417 00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:52.720 that cross functional alignment right upfront with all the various go to market functions for 418 00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:55.920 it to work. And you would say if I placed you in a new 419 00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:59.440 company, same scale, obviously would have to make sense, but this is 420 00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:03.880 a process you'd be willing to go through the headaches of implementing again because you've 421 00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.039 seen the success from it. Absolutely, because you know all of a sudden, 422 00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:10.720 think about it tomorrow. All we have to do is if we can 423 00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:14.519 get into this kind of mode, we still see another market opportunity or we 424 00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:18.279 do something we're spending up place. Yeah, and, you know, going 425 00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:22.039 after it as in an independent way, attacking that specific segment or that whatever 426 00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:27.799 is that market there, with the value proposition that's very specific to it and 427 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:32.359 looking to see how we win there. Absolutely, I means it's it's the 428 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:36.279 way for us to scale to, you know, toward this billion dollars of 429 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:40.440 revenue and more. Fantastic, man. Well, this has been so interesting. 430 00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:42.160 There's so many more questions we could get into around pods in place, 431 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:45.119 but I think this gives us a great start and a great jumping off point. 432 00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:51.160 Things to think about around alignment, things to think about experimentation, how 433 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:55.160 you communicate with customers, how you actually get those insights, and this has 434 00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:59.039 been fantastic. Fast. For those that want to stay connected to you and 435 00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:00.440 to work caught out, tell us a little bit more of how we can 436 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.319 do that. Yeah, absolutely. So the best way to connect to me 437 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:10.279 is linkedin. I'm Oskar Roy, head of marketing at Orcado, so I 438 00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:15.279 think by Linkedin handle is a Huskar Roy as well. So, yeah, 439 00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:19.240 hit me up on Linkedin and with Orcado we have a great presence on Linkedin 440 00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:23.200 as well. If you have any questions. Feel free to connect with me 441 00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:29.240 on Linkedin ask any questions. I'm active there and happy to help perfect well. 442 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:33.200 We really appreciate you stopping by the show and I know that it's conversations 443 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:37.920 like these that help fuel growth and innovation for B two B marketers, and 444 00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:40.920 that's why this show exists. So if you want to connect with me as 445 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:42.440 well when you're listening to this, you can search Benji block on Linkedin. 446 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:47.359 Would love to chat with you about marketing for everybody. Keep doing work that 447 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:51.279 matters, the important stuff. We want to focus in on that and Basker, 448 00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:53.400 thank you again for for stopping by the show. Thanks, Benji. 449 00:29:53.559 --> 00:30:08.880 This was very helpful. I had fun time talking to you. Absolutely B 450 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:11.839 Two B growth is brought to you by the team at sweet fish media. 451 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.480 Here at Sweet Fish, we produced podcasts for some of the most innovative brands 452 00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:19.640 in the world and we help them turn those podcasts into micro videos, linkedin 453 00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:23.759 content, blog posts and more. 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