Kyle Lacy’s Disagreement on Category Creation | Echo Chamber

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:19.280 We're stepping back into the echo chamber here on B two B growth, where 3 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:23.199 we throw in our two cents on what B two B marketers are talking about 4 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:26.760 on the internet and today, James and Dan, I thought it would be 5 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:31.800 worth talking about kind of. Kyle Lacy had this disagreement of sorts with the 6 00:00:31.879 --> 00:00:36.039 idea of category creation, so it was a post on LinkedIn. I'll just 7 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:39.880 read what he wrote and then we can discuss in further detail. But he 8 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:45.119 says, I've been trying to describe my disagreement with the idea of category creation, 9 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:50.520 and I think I finally found it. Most people rely on category creation 10 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:56.079 as a strategy because they have failed to tell a compelling story. A meaningful 11 00:00:56.159 --> 00:01:02.399 story scales better than any category, and hope a great story will help fuel 12 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:08.840 an eventual category creation exercise. It shouldn't be the other way around. People 13 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:15.079 really liked this. It's sitting somewhere around the two hundred like sixty five comments 14 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:19.400 area, and I thought it was really compelling to just see how people chimed 15 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:23.120 in and tried to either agree or disagree. Dan. When you hear this 16 00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:26.200 and you think of category creation. What are your initial thoughts here? It 17 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:33.439 triggers me because I just hear people and talk about story in such a romantic 18 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:36.439 way, like it all starts at the story. It's the essence of being, 19 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:40.359 isn't the story? And you're just kind of like, what are you 20 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:44.239 talking about? I know of like fifty companies that like you don't know their 21 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:47.480 story, but they're freaking huge, Like before this call, we're talking about 22 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:51.400 like Target, like Target Massive Store. Do you know Target story? I 23 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:55.079 don't. I've actually read some stories, like I've read Sam Walton story. 24 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:57.640 I haven't read Target story. I don't even know how it started. But 25 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:00.920 Best Buy like like do you know the company's? Sorry, most people don't 26 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:04.719 know Massive company story. And if you go over into um even in the 27 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:08.400 sas space Mail Chimp, I don't know Male Chimp story. I just don't. 28 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:14.080 Do you know Intuit story? I don't think I mean even the iconic 29 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:16.280 brands like in B two B right now, Like I don't think I know 30 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:22.400 Gong story. I don't think I know Outreach your sales lost story. Now 31 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:24.319 this might be a dumb question, but is the story doesn't have to be 32 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:27.800 the company story? Because when I think of it too, it can also 33 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:30.919 be the customer story that they're selling, like how they're going to make your 34 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:35.560 life easier. And when you're talking about consumer products like a target, maybe 35 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:38.319 like like you're kind of buying things that you need in a different way than 36 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:43.080 like in the B two B space where you're selling like a solution that you're 37 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:46.120 solving for. That's not the story though, that's the value proposition sure, 38 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:51.400 right, or the positioning. I could think of salesforces story like I think 39 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:54.360 a lot of us, like at least maybe maybe I've just been around sales 40 00:02:54.360 --> 00:02:58.520 for us long enough. But like Mark ben and Off like went off from 41 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:00.800 Oracle because he knew he wanted to make a cloud based He's like, we're 42 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:05.439 selling people these one off, one off purchases, but what if we just 43 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:08.280 made it a reoccurring subscription and they could just forever have access to it and 44 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:13.840 it just always updated right on the cloud, right, And they remember they 45 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:16.560 started with the big no software thing, So I remember that story. Netflix 46 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:22.159 also really strategic story. Do you guys know Netflix's story their official story because 47 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:27.439 their unofficial their actual stories different, but their official story. Everyone's actual story 48 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:30.680 is different. I was just watching a documentary of their story. I mean, 49 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:35.479 there's it's fascinating how Read ended up looping it, you know, bringing 50 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:38.960 in his former employee to co found it with him, and I mean, 51 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:42.439 yeah, there's there's a lot of a lot of juice in that story. 52 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:46.199 But you know what the official, like a few sentence story is. I 53 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:50.080 mean, it's the one about him getting like all the late fees from Blockbusters. 54 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:54.039 Yeah, no, it did happen. It did happen, but it's 55 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:59.199 not the only thing that kicks off Netflix. So back and forth, I 56 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:02.360 don't think it happens. I'm pretty sure they've they've talked about how that wasn't 57 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:05.879 even actually the real thing, like that didn't actually happen. That was like 58 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:09.840 maybe I heard that, I read I remember reading their found their book, 59 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:13.800 and they're like, yeah, that was an element something that had happened, 60 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:15.920 but like we were well into it way before that. It's kind of like, 61 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:19.879 is it the thing that kicked it off? Not really, but we 62 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:25.000 used there was a nice little sound bite of a chunk because it had happened 63 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:27.800 to Read where he had a freaking huge late fee from not turning back his 64 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:30.920 video back in you know, the part that I heard in the documentary that 65 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:35.560 I recently watched was that I'm blanking on the other seat. Like the co 66 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:39.920 founder that went on was like the first CEO of the company. I'm blanking 67 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:44.120 on his name. His is the book that I read. But they essentially 68 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:49.839 started it because the opportunity was massive, Like the video rental market was a 69 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:55.600 huge market, and they saw a problem and like people not wanting to wait 70 00:04:55.639 --> 00:05:00.560 in line to and to go out of their house. And they had revelation 71 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:03.879 that the cost of shipping the DVDs was small because of how small the DVD 72 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:06.839 was, and they're like, hey, there's something here, because shipping is 73 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:10.399 gonna be so low on these things that we can freaking make it. We 74 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.519 should be able to make a profit off this. That's not why we buy 75 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:16.959 Netflix. I don't. I don't pay twelve or fourteen or whatever the prices 76 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:23.519 because of their story. I buy it because their value probably is insane. 77 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:27.959 I think that's sort of what Chris Walker was driving at in his comment on 78 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:31.279 this post, because he was basically saying, like, the story matters, 79 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:36.240 but category creation is about the business model, product strategy, company strategy, 80 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:42.360 So culture, talent, demand creation strategy and the p O V in story. 81 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:48.000 So it's like it's all these things working in tandem that make category creation 82 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:51.959 work. But when you only highlight like, oh, we gotta tell a 83 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:57.040 more compelling story, that's gonna then in his opinion, and I think I 84 00:05:57.079 --> 00:05:59.920 would tend to agree, but be looked at more as a marketing ploy. 85 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:02.439 I think there are cases. I just think there's just so many ways to 86 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:06.519 win. Sometimes you're value Like sometimes a big selling point is in this story. 87 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:10.519 You see this a lot in the health and wellness space, Right, 88 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:15.680 somebody has a massive breakthrough and finds an easier way to control and manage their 89 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:18.879 weight. Right, and it's controversial they think of that the liver king, 90 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:24.040 right. Or like my friend was just staying over at our house and she 91 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:27.360 was talking to me about this new wheat. They found this wheat in like 92 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:30.560 this old tomb of some kind where they had a collection of these like this 93 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:33.720 wheat jar, and they even found it in like the I don't know, 94 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:36.160 like the mummy or I don't know if it was a mummy, but like 95 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:39.959 it was this like ancient thing they found and then they found it a bunch 96 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:43.759 of these preserved in a jar and I think they started growing it or something 97 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:47.040 and then they're like, WHOA, this wheat supernutrient dense and it doesn't have 98 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:51.160 all the stuff that causes people to be gluten intolerant, so people can actually 99 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:55.000 people that are gluten and Tollert can now eat this bread. And so she 100 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:57.319 bakes them while he were here, and it was good. It was also 101 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:00.759 expensive, but she she told me this story about this like ancient wheat, 102 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:04.639 and it was about the story that she led into this product with, and 103 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:08.399 I just thought it was fascinating. My mind was triggering with like, Oh, 104 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:12.040 this is where story matters in this case. She also made like ten 105 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:15.519 other recommendations that weren't story based, but this one was so I was like, 106 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:18.439 there's just so many ways to win. Story can be a differentiating factor. 107 00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:23.639 The trick is is it always how critical is it to category? Creation? 108 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:33.120 B two B growth will be right back, m oh, this is 109 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:38.439 where a story matters in this case. She also made like ten other recommendations 110 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:40.920 that weren't story based, but this one was so. I was like, 111 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:44.839 there's just so many ways to win. Story can be a differentiating factor. 112 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:49.319 The trick is is it always how critical is it the category creation. Yeah, 113 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:55.240 that's where I think the question is. And when we're talking about consumer 114 00:07:55.279 --> 00:08:01.600 products versus B two B there is a difference there as well. For when 115 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:03.600 the story I would say, I don't want to say matters, because the 116 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:07.279 story does matter, but like becomes the big thing, like in the story 117 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:11.600 of the waiting, you know what I mean. Like it's it's slightly different 118 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:13.800 in the B two B space. I thought there was a couple other like 119 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:18.959 pretty compelling comments on this post in the back and forth I'll finish with like 120 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:24.439 the Kyle and Chris Walker back and forth. So Kyle commented back, like 121 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.040 he he agrees, which we've talked, we've laughed about this before. But 122 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.240 it's the cordial like linked in back and forth, like fighting but not fighting 123 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:39.159 though yeah, oh yeah, that story is not obviously a marketing ploy. 124 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:43.759 And Chris just said the story brings everything together when done right for everyone else, 125 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:48.080 it's truly a marketing ploy. That to me sums up so well, 126 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:52.480 like don't if you only focus on the story, getting the story as shiny 127 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:56.080 as you possibly can, but you had all these other pieces of product and 128 00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:01.159 stuff that's like doesn't align to that story. The story comes far less compelling 129 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.159 because we would just all call bs on it. That to me is like 130 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:09.320 the push and pull of getting your story locked in anything else. Here on 131 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.639 this topic of category creation and and story there there was one comment here from 132 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:18.600 Mike Greenberg. He says, companies are extensions of their founders and executive teams, 133 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:22.639 and so we'll exhibit the same human and psychological issues that people struggle with. 134 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:26.159 Category creation is often used as a solution to figuring out what you want 135 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:31.039 and what you are, where in reality it needs to be the other way 136 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:33.759 around. It's just like when people who don't know, who don't yet know 137 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:37.320 what they want, make a really big life decision because they think it will 138 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:43.000 help them figure it out. It's an external solution to an internal problem. 139 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:46.519 I thought that was an interesting way to to look at it. We want 140 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:50.080 to define what our category is so that we can know what we really want 141 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:52.519 to be. And I think, I mean, you hear the lockheads of 142 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:56.360 the world and uh, John Rougie's and the folks that really you know are 143 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:03.120 prolifically talking about category recreation category design, and it's a process. And even 144 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:07.240 Kyle I mean referred to it as you know, uh, an exercise like 145 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:13.000 what do you say in in his you know, hopefully it leads to an 146 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.720 eventual category creation exercise. So this stuff is a process. It takes time. 147 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:20.720 I mean we're wrestling with it. We're talking about a lot more in 148 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.679 the Journey series on GDP Growth, where Dan and I are talking about like 149 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:28.600 us trying to figure out like what, you know, how that's the intersection 150 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:31.279 between B two B growth story and sweet Fish story and like how does that 151 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:35.879 play out with a media brand and the company's brand and and so yeah, 152 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:39.120 I love seeing these debates. The overarching thing to me is just that, 153 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:43.120 I mean, there are a lot of ways to win. And I think 154 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:45.960 that's a recurring theme that we're gonna be talking about people growth a lot. 155 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:48.759 But you pointed it out earlier, Dan, and I think it's spot on 156 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:52.519 in this case. I did an episode on BDB Growth with a guy named 157 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:58.039 klim All, and he had a fascinating take on this same subject that I 158 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:03.120 think actually pulls the pieces together in a way that made sense to me and 159 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:07.120 was really helpful for me when thinking about how does story connect to category And 160 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:11.120 actually he had a third element of community in there um and his take when 161 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:13.440 this the three became a flywheel. Like essentially, you have to figure out 162 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:18.600 what's going on in the community in such a way that that story is actually 163 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:20.679 going to resonate. Right, It all starts with who who are you talking 164 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:24.799 to? And it's the story their story, Like you can make up a 165 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:28.600 fantastical story, but like, is the story getna are they going to see 166 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:31.039 themselves in that story? So it all starts with the community you're reaching, 167 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:35.960 right, So the community informs the story or a k A strategic narrative, 168 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:41.919 same thing, right, the strategic narrative framework is just storytelling right in a 169 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:46.879 compelling way that becomes a category. Right. Sometimes the strategic narrative is the 170 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:50.600 conclusion of it, as we need to start this new way of doing things 171 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:54.000 because the old way of doing it's broken. Right. It's exactly what Chris 172 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.240 Walker is doing. But his first round at it was just coming back into 173 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.879 this is how demand gen is done. He didn't have to create a new 174 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:05.320 category, just hijacked the existing category beautiful. It didn't have to become a 175 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:09.519 new category. Sometimes it does and then the category eventually everyone grabs hold of 176 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:13.919 that and it evolves and it still becomes back to the community. The community 177 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:18.440 changes, and eventually the community starts to run into new issues, which turns 178 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:20.360 back into a new narrative, which turns into a new category, and around 179 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:24.600 and round it goes. Um Well, link to that in the show notes, 180 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:26.879 because I think it was kind of a fascinating way of framework to think 181 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:31.480 about how this all works together. But that's that was a framework that actually 182 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:33.440 kind of pulled all the pieces together for me about a year and a half 183 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.399 ago. I'm saying something if you saw it a year and a half ago 184 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:39.399 and you're still talking about it today, images are always so helpful. So 185 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.000 like I can imagine that flywheel in my head right now, and like, 186 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:46.720 yeah, it definitely makes sense. When you focus on adding value to a 187 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:52.360 community, you're going to discover new ways to do that over time, right 188 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:56.840 because everyone's working to continuously get better, and then you're providing that new value 189 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:00.279 and it just on and on it goes. And then if there's a new 190 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:03.519 gap, right then it's like the aha moment. Oh now it's the time 191 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:05.919 we create the category. But you've got to be in that community in order 192 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:09.240 for it to make sense. I don't so in that way, I don't 193 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.000 believe. I don't agree with Chris Walker that you actually have to build a 194 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:15.440 business model around it. I think there are more elements than the story of 195 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.200 creating a category, but you don't have to build a business around it. 196 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:20.440 You can literally build the category, be the king of it and not have 197 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:24.720 the business of it. Somebody else can come in and actually capitalize on it 198 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:28.559 way better than you. Most people will be strategic enough to build a business 199 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:31.000 around it. But I think you could be like a YouTuber and end up 200 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:33.159 building a category just because you're educating in a way and starting a movement. 201 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:37.399 But I think that's ultimately what you're trying to do is get a new get 202 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:39.679 a new method or a way of thinking in there out into the world. 203 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:43.480 But I don't necessarily think it requires building a business around it. Like you 204 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:48.039 can just have a new framework and new way of doing it and make money 205 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:52.919 on ads because you're a media your media machine, media company. Fascinating conversation. 206 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:58.080 Well that's it for today's Echo Chamber episode. You can find all things 207 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:01.080 be to be growth at B two B Growth showed dot com. Connect with 208 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:03.799 each of us over on LinkedIn. We'd love to chat with you and thanks 209 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:20.240 for listening everybody. Bye. B two B growth is brought to you by 210 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.639 the team at sweet Fish Media. Here at sweet Fish, we produce podcasts 211 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:26.759 for some of the most innovative brands in the world, and we help them 212 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:31.440 turn those podcasts into micro videos, LinkedIn content, blog posts, and more. 213 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:35.279 We're on a mission to produce every leader's favorite show. Want more information, 214 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:43.639 visit sweet fish media dot com.