Justin Welsh on Personal Branding, Thought Leadership, & Being You

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:03.919 Today on B two B Growth, we are sharing a featured conversation from our 2 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:08.880 archive. With over two thousand episodes released, we want to resurface episodes worth 3 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:12.599 another listen. Before we jump in, just want to say I would love 4 00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:15.720 to connect and hear from you on LinkedIn. You can search Benji walk over 5 00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:18.839 there and that's a great place to also interact with sweet Fish and B two 6 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:33.000 B Growth. All right, let's jump into today's featured conversation Conversations from the 7 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:41.439 front lines and marketing. This is B two B Growth. I'm Dan Sanchez 8 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:44.640 with sweet Fish Media, and today I'm joined with Justin Welch, who is 9 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:48.840 the strategic advisor to multiple startups and a former c r OH that took Patient 10 00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:52.359 Pop from zero with a fifty million in a rr. Just to kick things 11 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:55.079 off today, Justin, I'd love to ask you, like, outside of 12 00:00:55.079 --> 00:00:57.880 the work related activities we're going to be talking about in a moment, what 13 00:00:57.880 --> 00:01:00.960 do you like to do for fun? Outside of the things boy, Um, 14 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:03.760 most of the stuff that I like to do for fun has been canceled 15 00:01:03.760 --> 00:01:07.799 by the pandemic, but it's it's mostly traveling. My wife and I like 16 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:12.079 to go out and eat at nice restaurants were big food ease. We like 17 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:17.120 to drink drink wine, big craft beer fan. I like sports. I 18 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:19.519 like to watch the buck Eyes. I'm gonna how to State graduate, and 19 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:22.680 so I watched them every Saturday when they're when they're playing, and outside of 20 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:26.079 that, reading, tinkering, doing all kinds of interesting stuff. Nice. 21 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:30.439 Yeah, the pandemic has certainly slowed down a lot of those things. Sure 22 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:34.280 you're probably enjoying some take out a little bit more than than you used to. 23 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:38.280 We are. Thank you so much for joining me to record this episode 24 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:42.719 today. And today we're gonna be talking about how personal your personal brand impacts 25 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:47.959 thought leadership and vice versa. But before we dive into like what a personal 26 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:51.040 brand is and how to build one, I'd like to hear a little bit 27 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:53.719 more about your own personal story, where you've come from, and how your 28 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:59.959 personal brand has evolved with your story. Yeah. So I'm from Aha, 29 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:05.400 oh and I graduated school and oh three, my dad was a salesperson for 30 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:08.080 over forty years, and so you know, I looked around. We had 31 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:10.039 a nice house in a couple of cars, and I was like, oh, 32 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:13.360 that's you know, that's the kind of the be all end all would 33 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:17.319 get into pharma sales like my dad did that was not very successful. Ended 34 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:23.800 up at three different pharmaceutical companies. I ended up at a medical device company, 35 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:27.240 and for the first six years, from two thousand three to like late 36 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:30.879 two thousand and nine, I basically cycled through a bunch of different companies. 37 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:32.879 I got fired a lot, and I wasn't very good at sales, which 38 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:37.120 is kind of a bummer, Like that's what I had anticipated my life would 39 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:40.719 be, would be a salesperson, much like my father, and it kind 40 00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:45.520 of all changed. In late two thousand and nine, I got a call 41 00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:49.000 from a guy named Cyrus Massumi. He was the CEO and founder of a 42 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:52.039 small company in New York called Zack Doc. It was only I think nine 43 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:55.639 or ten employees at the time, and he had found my resume and monster 44 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:59.960 and it was a relatively doctored resume, and I went to New York City. 45 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:01.719 I was living in Allantown, Pennsylvania. I took a bus to New 46 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:05.639 York City and I interviewed for this job, and like I looked around, 47 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:08.039 there are these incredibly smart people. Was late at night, they were working 48 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:10.800 hard. They were eating pizza, drinking beer, like working on this on 49 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:15.680 this product, and like the energy of that room, in the the the 50 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:19.919 actual product itself I loved, and so I joined that company and that's sort 51 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:23.000 of where things started to go well for me. I spent about five years 52 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:25.400 at that company in multiple leadership roles. I went from being a sales guy 53 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:30.080 to a sales manager, to managing multiple states and then working directed for the 54 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:32.240 CEO for the last year I was there. After five years, I did 55 00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:37.639 a short stint in the government technology company where I went with a few few 56 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.759 friends and basically did a turnaround and got it acquired. And then in two 57 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:45.759 thousand fifteen early fifteen, in January, I was hired as the VP of 58 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:49.400 sales Patient Pop and they were about six people I think at the time, 59 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.759 and I came in with one salesperson and no revenue and spent five years they're 60 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:57.800 building the business and grew it from I think it's very first dollar to to 61 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:02.719 over fifty million in recurring in an August nineteen. I kind of had what 62 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:06.199 what happened to me is is kind of what happens to a lot of revenue 63 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:10.080 leaders who are working at really high growth startups, which is just like I 64 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:15.120 burned out, and I got super tired, and um I stepped down from 65 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:17.160 Patient Pop And for the last fifteen months, I've been building my own thing, 66 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:20.319 and and that to me is where personal branding comes in. I built 67 00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:26.399 my current business and what is hopefully my my new future business on the backs 68 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:30.040 of gaining some attention online. Nice. When did you start thinking about personal 69 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.639 brand Was it only after Patient Pop that it became a question in your head? 70 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:39.399 No, my my story of burning out doesn't I don't. I don't 71 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:43.680 give a whole lot of details, but generally, I think the most important 72 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:47.480 detail is that in in late seventeen, I just sort of had a like, 73 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:51.040 would I guess we'd call like a massive panic attack because I was just 74 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:58.079 overworking myself tremendously and that all sort of came to a head in late seventeen 75 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:00.639 and it was like a really like life flashing kind of moment because I actually 76 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:03.360 thought it was dying and it was like a very crazy story. Nine one 77 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:05.560 one had to be called and all this, all this you know stuff, 78 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:10.319 And you know, it wasn't right that minute that I thought about it, 79 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.800 but you know, over the next weeks and months after that event, I 80 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:17.519 began thinking about how to best create a more intentional life, a life that 81 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:20.199 I enjoyed living in, a life that wasn't the one that was burning me 82 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:26.240 out. And I had a hypothesis that growing a brand online or or getting 83 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:31.279 some attention online would be part of my distribution channel for living that more intentional 84 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:36.000 life working for myself. And so in about mid eighteen, I started to 85 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:41.439 produce content that I hoped would be helpful to some folks, and that was 86 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.879 sort of the start of my journey. Yeah, it was this still why 87 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:47.160 you're at Patient Pop? Or is this after? Yeah, it's about It's 88 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:53.160 about I think fourteen or fifteen months before I decided to I had, I 89 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:56.560 had made the decision already. It was fourteen or fifteen months before I actually 90 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:00.000 executed on the decision to to step down. But that's when I started thinking. 91 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:02.439 But yeah, so how do you define a personal brand? Yeah, 92 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:06.879 a personal brand is is um, well, online is an extension of your 93 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:10.879 offline brand. You know. I always think like, we're all doing really 94 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:13.360 cool stuff at work, and we're all doing really cool stuff in our lives, 95 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:15.600 and um, whatever you're doing at sweet Fish whenever I was doing a 96 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:18.759 patient Pop, but not just that patient pop but also on the side in 97 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:24.439 my personal life when I'm researching studying, we can we can hold that internal, 98 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:28.040 we can share it with our teammates and our our colleagues at work, 99 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:30.639 or we can go and we can share with everyone and say, hey, 100 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:33.600 I'm building a pretty successful business over here. Rather than just hold onto the 101 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:38.199 knowledge, why not share it. And when you share that knowledge externally to 102 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:40.920 the you know, the rest of the internet, you know, people pay 103 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:45.079 attention. So my my thought is it's just kind of what you're doing offline, 104 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:48.040 but just blasted through a much bigger megaphone. Would you say it's synonymous 105 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:53.079 with building a reputation? You know, I've seen a few folks say that, 106 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:56.600 and I think I think there's a specific thought leader in marketing who who 107 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:00.480 says that a lot. And I appreciate that comparison. Yes, I think 108 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:04.720 that it influences your reputation. I think that the content that you create, 109 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:11.120 in the brand that you create will ultimately generate a reputation for yourself. I 110 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:15.360 don't think that everything that you put out is reputation worthy or necessarily adds to 111 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.319 your reputation. I might be wrong in that in that regard, but I 112 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:23.560 think it's a pretty darn good synonym. Yeah, it's not bad. It 113 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:27.160 almost makes me think, as you're explaining this that a personal brand is you 114 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:31.600 just taking charge of your reputation or at least trying to intentionally craft it a 115 00:07:31.639 --> 00:07:34.720 little bit better, right with the stuff you're putting out there, because your 116 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:38.759 reputation is what it is. But when you're calling it a personal brand, 117 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:44.720 you're just being more intentional with how you're trying to frame what people think and 118 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:48.160 see. Yeah, it's it's really interesting, right because one percent of people, 119 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:51.639 and you've heard the old and one thing, which is like one percent 120 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:58.480 create, nine sort of interact and the other on the sidelines just just watching. 121 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:01.079 I don't think that's chine all that much, to be honest. I 122 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:05.279 think we're just seeing more more of the one percent because it's easier to see 123 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:11.120 those folks. And because of that, because the the amount of people that 124 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:13.399 are creating is so small and the amount of people that are consuming is so 125 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:18.519 large, those who are consuming it and creating it try and label it something. 126 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:22.600 What is it that you're doing when you log onto Twitter or you know, 127 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.920 LinkedIn or whatever social media account? What do you call that? When 128 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:31.319 people are constantly talking about themselves or their experience or whatever. So people call 129 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:33.360 it personal brand. I'm I'm just as guilty of having called that. To 130 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:37.240 me, it's just opening up your life. It's just living your life in 131 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:43.720 public so that people can learn from it. And I think those who intentionally 132 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:48.080 craft their personal brand, it's really easy to see. I think it's really 133 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:50.360 easy to say, like, oh, I see you know Jim, and 134 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.440 I'm just making a name up right, His personal brand is everything is always 135 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:58.360 going well, not everything is always going well, And so it's me a 136 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:01.879 personal brand is really your your life under a microscope for others to see from 137 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:05.840 both your winnings and your and your failures. Yeah. I learned about the 138 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:09.840 one from you actually, probably a few months ago in a post, and 139 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:13.720 I was like, yeah, it's probably true. I think it has been 140 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:18.000 growing as far as people posting and taking ownership and trying to craft that narrative. 141 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:20.240 But I think it it didn't jump from like one to five percent. 142 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:24.080 I think it jumped from like you know, point one percent to one percent. 143 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:28.279 Right. We know the people that were the ones out there inactive, 144 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.039 especially ten years ago. We're just the media. And it's been growing where 145 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:33.960 more people have been taken it up, but it's still so few and far 146 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.000 in between, like the people out there just posting regularly, right, And 147 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:43.120 we all we also live in like a very tunnel vision world in the different 148 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.320 social media channels that we play in. Like I always use this example where 149 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.320 like, I don't know, I'm into technology, so maybe this won't mean 150 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:52.799 anything to anyone else listening, but you know, there's a there's a few 151 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:56.320 platforms that people on Twitter talk a lot about Notion, right, is something 152 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:01.639 Rome research, Like you're hearing about these young companies, you know, in 153 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:03.840 tech that are making a big difference. And I might go out and chat 154 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:07.840 with my buddies on Twitter or my tech friends, like, yeah, absolutely, 155 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:11.200 I use Notion, I use Rome, I use Circle for community, 156 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:13.240 but like whatever, and we're like, oh, wow, everyone's using it, 157 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:16.159 And then you realize, no, it's like forty people you talk to 158 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:20.559 on Twitter and one percent of the rest of the population even knows what the 159 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:26.240 heck you're talking about. So like you can get this idea that more people 160 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:28.639 are doing things, which is probably true, but I think it's really who 161 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:33.360 we surround ourselves with that that sort of pour the gasoline on that on that 162 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:37.360 viewpoint, absolutely, I do notice that a lot and people, I think 163 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:39.519 people at least I see post on LinkedIn where they're like, come on, 164 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:41.960 we're tired of hearing about this, but like, yeah, we are, 165 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:46.440 but there's like a group of fifty of us maybe they're talking about this all 166 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:50.679 time, but we're crafting it for the other hundreds that are still still trying 167 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:54.919 to figure it out. Right, So, how would you say a personal 168 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:58.720 brand impacts a thought leadership? Specifically, if you're trying to become a thought 169 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:01.840 leader, where does a scent a brand fit into that? So? I 170 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:05.240 don't think you necessarily you don't need to be a thought leader to have a 171 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.320 personal brand, right, most people have a personal brand, whether they they 172 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:13.759 are intentional with it or not. But where does the personal brand fit in 173 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:18.080 with that path of becoming a thought leader? I think it's probably so I 174 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:20.919 want to There's a couple different things I think are important. I think first 175 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:24.000 of all, in order to be a thought leader, if that's like the 176 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:28.440 term that people are going to use, you have to be really niche, 177 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:31.919 which means like, oh, when I think of justin Welsh, I think 178 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.000 of X right when I think of Kevin Dorsey, I think of why. 179 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.480 When I think of Max all Chrueler, I think of z Like, you 180 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:41.840 have to have something very specific to be a thought leader in a specific area 181 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:45.759 of expertise, right, So so let me give you an example. For 182 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:48.440 a long time, most of the content that I put out was around sales 183 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:50.840 because I was building the team over at Patient Pop. It's not really what 184 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:56.120 interests me and I don't really talk about it that much anymore, and every 185 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.519 once in a while someone might say, we're having Justin Welsh and he's a 186 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:01.559 thought leader in sales, and I know a lot about it because I've done 187 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:07.000 it for a long time. But that is happening less and less because I 188 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:09.919 don't talk about it that much. And to me, being a thought leader 189 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:16.360 is so much less important than being yourself. I know that sounds super cliche, 190 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:20.960 but but here's what I mean. Thought leadership is narrow. Right, 191 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:24.399 I'm a thought leader in sales, But what if sales is not interesting to 192 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:26.879 me in ten years? Like then I have to be a thought leader in 193 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:30.840 something I don't care about. What I like to be a leader in is 194 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:33.279 myself. I like to be my authentic self, so If one quarter I'm 195 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:37.840 I'm really you know, hammering sales, awesome. If the next quarter I'm 196 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:39.879 interested in something different, like building my own business, I want to talk 197 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:43.000 about that. If the next quarter I'm interested in, you know, building 198 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:46.519 a winery, cool, I want to talk about that too. I don't 199 00:12:46.519 --> 00:12:48.000 want to be a thought leader in any of those specific things. I want 200 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:52.440 people to like me as a person and for me to be the product and 201 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:56.960 and the brand. And so that's how I think about brand building aside from 202 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:00.720 thought leadership. If that makes sense, it does a lot of sense. 203 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:03.440 I do think that if you want to be perceived as a thought leader, 204 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:05.799 not that you could ever call yourself one, but if that's your goal to 205 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:09.840 be perceived as one, then you're right. You do have to pick a 206 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.399 niche. And I think like once you kind of find your beachhead to get 207 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.159 in on, get in that kind of like you did with sales, you 208 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.080 can start to expand out from there. I mean, look at Gary v 209 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:24.519 who started as the wine guy and and kind of pivoted to being the social 210 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:26.799 media guy and oh shoot he does a lot of other marketing stuff. Oh 211 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:31.039 he's now he's the big agency guy. Now, he's doing. He's flipping 212 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:33.360 garage, sailing stuff like he just he keeps adding onto it. But he 213 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:37.440 kind of started with like the one thing, and all the while, all 214 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:41.440 of those are adding to his personal brand. He's still known for wine. 215 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:43.879 It's not like that's going away, even though he doesn't talk about it as 216 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:46.480 much as he used to write like, it's still all of it's his personal 217 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:52.639 brand, though his thought leadership pieces have changed over time exactly. And so 218 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:58.559 he's the brand, right like Gary Vaynertruck is the brand, and people will 219 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:01.639 follow him whether he's talking about wine. They will buy his one they will 220 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:07.120 buy his baseball cards, they will buy his marketing books, they will buy 221 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.919 his agency stuff because they like him. They don't like his take on marketing 222 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:13.279 or his take on wine, or is they They like him. He's a 223 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.799 likable guy. He's a good personality. And I think that that's like the 224 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:22.799 ultimate win, right there, is when you're the product. And um, 225 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:24.360 I think if you want to be a thought leader, then you better be 226 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:28.200 committed to talking about one very specific topic if you're going to be a thought 227 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:31.000 leader in just that topic, unless you can turn yourself into a brand. 228 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:37.240 And I think very few people are really successful at actually productizing themselves. That's 229 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:41.200 interesting. So it does make sense that if you're going to be a thought 230 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:43.559 leader, you have to remain a thought leader, which takes a lot of 231 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:46.080 time and effort. Like you won't always be the go to guy for sales, 232 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:48.759 especially as you spend less and less time, and it will move on 233 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:52.799 without you and people won't think about you like that. Even in just this 234 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:58.480 conversation, I've realized a personal brand isn't a step to becoming a thought leader. 235 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:01.840 To the other way around, thought leadership is a step to building a 236 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:05.080 personal brand. Would you say that's true? Yeah, I think that's true. 237 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:09.720 I think I think personal brand and thought leadership are so different. Right 238 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:13.480 again, Like I think having a personal brand is a component of thought leadership 239 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:16.480 and probably vice versa. But to me, thought leadership is so narrow and 240 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:20.240 that doesn't mean it's bad. By the way, I'm not suggesting the thought 241 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.159 leadership is bad. You want to be that. You want to be the 242 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:26.000 best you know, inbound demand gen marketer in the world. Amazing. You 243 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.320 could probably build a business, be very profitable, make a great living, 244 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:33.519 and have that brand. But in my opinion, unless you can product size 245 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:37.720 yourself, your pigeonholed and talking about one thing and that's cool. That's just 246 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:41.879 not what I like to do. And so my my thing is do interesting 247 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:43.960 things and tell people about them, and if other people find them interesting, 248 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.120 they will continue to follow the journey, and if they find them not interesting, 249 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.200 they will stop. And my goal is to be interesting enough to have 250 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:54.960 enough people continue on the journey with me, more so than those who drop 251 00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.399 off. That is interesting, I man, I do think it seems to 252 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:03.519 me, and I'm still on my journey trying to figure this out. That 253 00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:07.679 it would be faster to become known for one specialty and then throw in some 254 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:11.200 areas of interest, at least things I'm experimenting with our throwing in like other 255 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:14.240 random things that make me me, like the fact that I don't drink coffee. 256 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:18.559 I drink Yerba mate daily. Right, it's gives people, or what 257 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:21.919 James Carberry would say, like it's like velcrow, You're giving people more hooks 258 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:25.799 to latch onto. Makes you more human and more interesting because they can learn 259 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:30.240 little pieces about you and relate on different levels. I don't necessarily think they 260 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:36.159 all have to be work expertise necessarily, though I do as I'm starting to 261 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:38.759 evaluate and talk to a lot of different thought leaders and seeing how people got 262 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:44.279 there, it seems like they usually specialized in one thing first and then branched 263 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:48.320 out kind of like just I just had Austin bell Sack on the show, 264 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:52.440 and he specialized in careers, right, and he might branch out to something 265 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:55.840 later, but right now he's known as the dream job guy. Right. 266 00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:59.240 I think, like, let me give you an example of someone who, 267 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:02.879 like the is a really good job of just being interesting that that a lot 268 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.960 of people follow. But it's kind of hard to put him into like a 269 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:10.079 you know, a hole, Like it's like this guy doesn't exist in this 270 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:14.200 one exact specific area, which is like a guy like Noval online, right, 271 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:18.240 like Neval Rabicant, so like interesting dude right, has a million opinions 272 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:26.640 on philosophy, investment, technology, happiness. Like I don't know how you 273 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.119 describe that person other than an interesting guy. And so when you're interesting, 274 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:34.279 people tend to follow you. And so, um, while I believe that's 275 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.359 interesting, I haven't. I haven't heard of him before. Like he's the 276 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:41.000 founder, he's the founder of Angelist, and um, he's very very he's 277 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.240 probably the most popular follow on Twitter and a V A L. He's just 278 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:48.839 a really interesting dude. I don't agree with everything he says, but I 279 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.480 certainly will read it, and um, because he's interesting, I continue to 280 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:56.160 follow what he has to say. It's like Tim Ferris, right, Like 281 00:17:56.359 --> 00:18:00.839 what is Tim Ferris? Guy does karate writes books like acker investor a CEO? 282 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:04.039 Like what is you? How do you pigeonhole that guy? You don't? 283 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:07.559 Because he's interesting and that's what makes him successful. Everything, Well, 284 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:11.039 I haven't. I don't know about Novol, but I know Tim Ferris. 285 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:12.720 You know, his his big thing was the four hour work week. That's 286 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:17.200 what put him on the map. It's interesting that his four hour work week, 287 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:21.559 just the book alone showcase the breadth of interesting things that he's done, 288 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:27.079 from dancing to tie kickboxing. Right, and his at least i've heard breakdowns 289 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:33.119 of him, is like his reoccurring theme is gosh, I don't want to 290 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:38.720 It's like massive efficiency to reach big goals fast. It's essentially like life hacks 291 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:45.079 is his his overarching thing. Yeah, I guess my point is it's really 292 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.000 hard to transition from thought leadership being really good at one thing to being an 293 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.680 interesting enough person to take people along along on a really long journey. And 294 00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:56.079 I think that's where like the real winning of personal brand is is if you 295 00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:00.799 can be interesting enough to have your audience follow you from pursuit to pursue. 296 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:03.359 So what do you do if you're just not that interesting? Right? Because 297 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:07.039 I think most people have fondt of that because most people go kind of go 298 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:10.160 with the flow. They like what they like and it may or may not 299 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:12.079 be interesting. But if you're going to stand out, if you're going to 300 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:17.279 be likable, part of that is being interesting. Well. I think being 301 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:19.559 interesting being likable are two very different things. I think there are a lot 302 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:25.599 of interesting, very unlikable people. I think Kanye West is particularly unlikable. 303 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:27.200 Like I'm sure there will be a lot of people that don't agree with me 304 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:32.440 on that he's unlikable, but he's interesting, right, I think. Um, 305 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:33.920 I think there are lots of other folks that fit into that category. 306 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:38.960 But I think the biggest difference is it's it's confidence. I think most people 307 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.039 are interesting. I think most people just don't think they're interesting, and so 308 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:48.079 um, showing people the interesting side of you means exposing yourself to a larger 309 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:52.880 audience. By sharing and being open, and most people are uncomfortable with being 310 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:57.119 open. They're uncomfortable with sharing, and they have a stigma that there's a 311 00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:00.880 stigma that they're not interesting. And I and I don't think I'm particularly very 312 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:03.839 interesting at all. Um. I think I live a pretty normal life. 313 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.319 I work Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. I hang out with my wife. 314 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:11.640 I go out and I get food. I don't have children. I don't 315 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.119 do it particularly all that. I don't bungee jump, I don't don't do 316 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:17.440 too many things. But I have interesting takes. I think on some things, 317 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:19.720 and so I decided to share them and see if other people think they're 318 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:22.960 interesting. And the market will always tell you if you're interesting, you shouldn't 319 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:29.359 tell yourself. Makes me think that something I've been learning recently from from James 320 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:33.000 Carberry actually is he's interesting, even though the things he the things that make 321 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:40.000 him interesting, are actually pretty normal, except he What makes it interesting is 322 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:44.039 that he owns it so radically, like he's confident about it. He likes 323 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:45.799 sweet fish, hence he named his whole company out of it. You know, 324 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:48.759 he likes Coke zero. He says the days like. The way he 325 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.720 measures success is the amount of days he doesn't have to wear shoes because he's 326 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.720 a flip flip flop guy. He lives in Florida and that's just how he 327 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:00.359 rolls. He wears T shirts, baseball caps, and flip flops to work 328 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:03.720 every day. And I'm like, there's something attractive about it, just because 329 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.359 he's so passionate about it. He's like, if I walk into a restaurant 330 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:08.359 they don't have coke and there they offer me pepsi, I just leave. 331 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:12.359 I'm like, that's kind of intense. He's like, well, I don't 332 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:15.319 like pepsi, So it's what it is. What it is, but it 333 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:18.559 just kind of makes it interesting. But you know, I didn't recognize until 334 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:21.880 now that it's the confidence he has behind the things that he likes and doesn't 335 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:25.559 like that just kind of stands out a little bit more. Is that kind 336 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:32.680 of what you mean by confidence totally? I mean confidence comes with the recognition 337 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:37.559 that most of what you're told your whole life is very subjective. Right, 338 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:40.920 So like, let me give you an example. It's interesting to jump out 339 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:44.759 of airplanes. It is interesting to climb mount everest, Right, those are 340 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:48.880 feats, and you're you're taught like those people are cool or interesting or unique. 341 00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:52.000 And so when people do that, they say, oh, that's interesting 342 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:56.759 this. I'm confident enough to share this right now being a consultant to SASS 343 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:02.079 businesses, Like, no one's told that's all that interesting, Like, and 344 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:06.119 I don't particularly find it that interesting. But if I share it with people 345 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:07.440 and they're like, that's really cool. I would love to know how to 346 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:10.759 do that. That's so neat. How did you get started? Well, 347 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:15.519 then someone's telling me that it's interesting. So interests is subjective. If you 348 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:18.720 share what you're doing, there's gonna be a lot of people who don't think 349 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.880 is that interesting. All you need is a few, you know, thousand 350 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.440 people to feel that it is. And if you do that and you share 351 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:30.920 things, then they become attached to the interest of in your personality. And 352 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:36.400 I think that the more confidence you have in realizing that interest is subjective will 353 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:38.640 give you some of the boost that you need to to go out and get 354 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:45.000 started. There's there's always somebody who will relate to what you're doing and going 355 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:47.400 through, and I think if you put it out there, you're just much 356 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:49.519 more likely to find them. The one thing that kind of gets me stuck 357 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:52.440 up is there's we know even though it's a few people, there's still a 358 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:57.359 lot of people out there sharing their passion that don't quite They just don't connect 359 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:02.319 with people. Even though they're sharing what they're interested in, they're not getting 360 00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:06.119 found or they're just not gaining a following. There's tons of YouTubers out there 361 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:08.799 cranking away and putting out videos, tons of people on Twitter talking about their 362 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:15.640 niche dog walking job. What is it the unique factor? Even if people 363 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:18.799 are putting it out there, and maybe they're doing it confidently, but are 364 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:22.480 often missing the mark. What do you think is missing the most of those 365 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:26.960 people are following instructions, They're not following principles. And so what I mean 366 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:33.079 is like people will ask me, how did you build a big following on 367 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:37.400 LinkedIn? How did you do that? What they're really asking is, please 368 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:41.519 provide me with step by step instructions for doing exactly what you did. And 369 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:45.920 that's what the question is on on on this like underneath the surface, right 370 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.519 is please show me step by step how you did this. And I can't 371 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:52.839 do that because this is my journey. I have my own principles, my 372 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:55.839 own beliefs, I have my own way that I write. I have my 373 00:23:55.880 --> 00:24:00.400 own thoughts on human psychology and persuasion. I went out in form a bunch 374 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:04.640 of hypotheses and I acted on them. Someone else acting on mine will never 375 00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:10.400 work for them, and so I try and teach people principles that they can 376 00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:14.079 go out and think through and then become themselves. Those folks that are putting 377 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:17.839 out stuff that's not resonating is likely because they're not being themselves. They don't 378 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:21.400 have their own principles, they don't know where they're going, and they're just 379 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:25.000 simply copying what they see other folks doing. I can't tell you how many 380 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:29.079 people take what I write in the morning on LinkedIn and rewrite it word for 381 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:33.400 word and post it as themselves. That's okay. It does not resonate with 382 00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:37.279 people because it's not their thoughts, it's not what they believe, it's not 383 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:41.839 how they write, it's not how they speak. And when you follow someone 384 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:44.240 else, that's why. It's why I don't read a lot of business books, 385 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:48.519 to be honest, Like, I can appreciate that there's probably some good 386 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:52.160 lessons inside of those books. I read one over and over again, but 387 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:56.799 like it's tough to learn from someone else's journey. Things change all the time, 388 00:24:56.200 --> 00:25:00.920 and everything has context and so and by the way, books or marketing 389 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.759 materials, they don't really tell the journey. They tell a glossed over version 390 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:07.920 of a journey. And so you cheat yourself, in my opinion, when 391 00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:10.920 you believe that you can just implement what other people do. So that's a 392 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.880 long winded way of saying for yourself. Hey, everybody logan with sweet Fish 393 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:18.559 here. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know 394 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:23.680 we're big proponents of putting out original, organic content on LinkedIn. But one 395 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:27.599 thing that's always been a struggle for a team like ours is to easily track 396 00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:32.440 the reach of that LinkedIn content. That's why I was really excited when I 397 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:36.440 heard about Shield the other day from a connection on you Guessed It linked In. 398 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:40.759 Since our team started using Shield, i've loved how it's led us easily 399 00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:45.240 track and analyze the performance of our LinkedIn content without having to manually log it 400 00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:52.000 ourselves. It automatically creates reports and generates some dashboards that are incredibly useful to 401 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:55.680 see things like what content has been performing the best, and what days of 402 00:25:55.720 --> 00:26:00.119 the week are we getting the most engagement and our average views proposed. I 403 00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:03.200 highly suggest you guys check out this tool if you're putting out content on LinkedIn, 404 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:07.319 and if you're not, you should be. It's been a game changer 405 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:11.440 for us. If you go to shield app dot ai and check out the 406 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:15.079 ten day free trial, you can even use our promo code b to be 407 00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:21.160 growth to get a discount. Again, that's shield app dot Ai and that 408 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:26.039 promo code is be the number to be growth all one word. All right, 409 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:33.279 let's get back to the show. Being yourself. That is something that 410 00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:36.720 I fight with a lot because I feel like I don't know. It's hard 411 00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:40.440 to it's hard to define what yourself is, right, And that's a struggle 412 00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:42.640 most people experience. Are like, well, what part of myself my past 413 00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:45.279 self, my future self, my current self, And even if it's some 414 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:49.000 of my current self, what pieces do I eliminate in showcase? Versus what 415 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:52.079 pieces do I leave behind? Because the part of the problem is, you 416 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:55.039 know, like the curse of knowlogy, you know a little bit too much 417 00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:57.799 about yourself. So which parts do you highlight or not? Yeah? I 418 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.680 was wondering if like you just have to throw it all out there and see 419 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:04.720 which parts catch and which parts don't sure. Let me give you an example. 420 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:10.319 Earlier in this conversation, I mentioned to you that I had a panic 421 00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:14.680 attack. Right, not particularly proud of it. It's not like a thing 422 00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:18.240 that I am excited about sharing with a bunch of people who are going to 423 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:23.240 listen, But I don't know. It gives you more like context around why 424 00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:27.720 I decided to leave my job. Like I could, I could paint an 425 00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:30.640 incredible narrative of why I left my job, Right, I could have some 426 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:34.400 really cool hip reason of why I left. The reason I left is because 427 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:37.920 I was fat as hell, gained a bunch of weight, drank way too 428 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:42.640 much, had a panic attack, and had to change. Like, I'm 429 00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:48.920 not afraid to share that because most people are going through shitty challenges, and 430 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:53.000 most people only share what they want you to see, and that makes them 431 00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:57.240 less interesting. And if you share what you're really going through, you're more 432 00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:02.519 relatable. It resonates with cool. You are relevant to other folks because lots 433 00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:04.880 of people right now are burning out, put on a bunch of weight, 434 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:08.880 they're drinking way too much, they're at high levels of stress and anxiety, 435 00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:12.519 and they need to hear that somebody else went through that as well and came 436 00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:17.799 out the other side feeling pretty good. So there's one of the things you 437 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:21.640 mentioned they need to be led by principles. What are some of those principles 438 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:27.400 that are worth sticking to even though context is different for everybody, Sure for 439 00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:33.039 me, like my my core principle is time is time is the ultimate currency. 440 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:38.039 And so when I like and that was formed through a very specific life 441 00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:42.319 experience, I think everyone knows time is the only unrenewable currency. I get 442 00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:45.200 that, but like, I had a panic attack and I thought I was 443 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:51.359 dying, And when I thought that was happening, I realized how much of 444 00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:55.519 my time I had wasted spent doing stuff I didn't like to do and not 445 00:28:55.599 --> 00:28:59.240 spending with people that I like to spend it with. And so when I 446 00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:02.680 came out of that situation, like that became my guiding principle, was that 447 00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:06.680 time was so important to me. And when I learned that principle, I 448 00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:11.960 decided that one of the best ways to live that principle was to not be 449 00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:15.960 owned by anybody else. And so that kind of was my second principle, 450 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:18.119 which is I don't believe I should work for anybody else ever, Again, 451 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:22.759 I think that I should only work for myself, and I believe that lots 452 00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:25.160 of other people would benefit from that as well. So I talk about that 453 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:29.440 a lot, right. Another principle of mine is consistency over everything. I 454 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:33.480 think people always ask, like I sell a course, I think you bought 455 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:37.400 it right, And I've made a lot of sales and people are like, 456 00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:41.599 how did you do that? It's like, well, I wrote five hundred 457 00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:47.640 and sixty six consecutive posts for free every day and shared them with my audience, 458 00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:49.920 so it's not like an overnight success, right. So consistency over everything. 459 00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:55.000 I think the more consistent you are in any skill, just being consistent 460 00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:57.359 doing something every day will ultimately put you in the top ten percent of whatever 461 00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:02.119 you're doing globally if you just do it every day. And so that is 462 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:04.799 another huge principle that that I live by. Um So those are three that 463 00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:08.559 are really important to me, but they might not be as important or as 464 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:12.440 relevant to other folks. That makes a lot of sense. So at least 465 00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:15.839 the three things that I'm hearing you say that I don't know, I'm trying 466 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:21.359 to find takeaways for the audience is one, And I think this is actually 467 00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:23.119 a pretty big one is that you really need to establish your journey, like 468 00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:30.200 where are you going? Would you say? From there? Like other things, 469 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:32.039 you could just say like, hey, this is where I'm at and 470 00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:36.240 this is where I'm going, right maybe, but let me let me give 471 00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:37.640 you something I think about differently. Sorry if I'm taking this in a direction 472 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:41.160 day. On the one, I'm fascinating, man, let's do it. 473 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:45.200 But but I don't know. I am as guilty as everybody else of thinking 474 00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:48.160 about my life as a journey and thinking about like where don't want to be 475 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:52.880 in ten years and twenty years, but ultimately, like what fun is that? 476 00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:56.119 It's not very fun if you know the ending to the movie, and 477 00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:59.960 I don't really want to do that. So it's not necessarily knowing your journey. 478 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.079 And I think that the big takeaways do interesting things, right, Try 479 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.759 interesting stuff and interesting and subjectives. So whatever that means to you, whatever 480 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:10.920 you enjoy doing, try it, do it, dip your toe in the 481 00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:14.599 water. But share that journey with other people who are likely interested in it 482 00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.440 as well, and the journey will define itself. If you would have asked 483 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.839 me five years ago where I thought I would be, it would certainly not 484 00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.119 be living in Nashville, Tennessee, you know, working for myself as an 485 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:30.400 advisor and creating digital products online and having a big audience on LinkedIn. None 486 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:33.960 of those things were like I knew in ten that I wanted to try and 487 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:37.880 get some attention, but I had no idea where it was going, right, 488 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.640 Like, I had no no clue, And in one year prior to 489 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:44.599 that, I wasn't even thinking about things like that. So it's less planning 490 00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:47.359 out the journey and it's more enjoying the journey. And I think the easiest 491 00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:51.200 way to enjoy the journey is by doing interesting things. And so to me, 492 00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:53.799 that is not doing interesting things setting out journeys. Though you're like, 493 00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:59.799 Okay, I'm gonna do something interesting. I'm gonna go climb Mount Whitneys, 494 00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:01.839 go Everest, But like I'm gonna go climb the tallest mountain in the contiguous 495 00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:05.839 US. That's a journey. It's just a random interesting thing I'm gonna go 496 00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:07.839 do. Is that not like setting up a journey of something you're gonna go 497 00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:10.680 and accomplish. It's setting up a journey. It's different than knowing where the 498 00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:15.359 journey is going. Like to me, I don't right now I'm working on 499 00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:19.200 a new business with my wife. I have. I have an idea of 500 00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:22.119 how I want to launch it and where I think it might go in the 501 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.799 first three to four months, but outside of that, like I don't have 502 00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:29.039 like a two year game plan or a three year game plan or a five 503 00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:30.960 year game plan, because what I found is sure you want to know what 504 00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:34.680 you're starting, Like you want to know, like when you wake up that 505 00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:37.799 day, you're like, it's cool to know a little bit of what you're 506 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:40.119 doing. I think doing things that come to you in the in real time 507 00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:44.839 is fun as well. But I don't have a long term plan for it. 508 00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:47.559 I want to start it. Like I didn't expect to sell a linked 509 00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:52.559 In playbook online. That never was an expectation. I didn't build an audience 510 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:55.920 on LinkedIn to sell a playbook that just happened by accident because Kevin Dorsey thought 511 00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:58.839 it was a good idea and told me about it at lunch one day, 512 00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:00.720 and I was like, that is a good idea, And so that's what 513 00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:04.480 I mean about, Like you start off with an intention of building an audience 514 00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:07.400 or whatever, but where it goes, I don't think you should map that 515 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:12.480 out and I think that's against every blog post you're gonna read, and every 516 00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:15.599 step by step guide for setting up your online business is all horseship, it's 517 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:21.519 all s c e O stuff, it's all nonsense. Get started and ride 518 00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:23.039 the waves. See where the journey takes you. To me, that's a 519 00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:27.240 much more interesting way to do something. I like, agree with you and 520 00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:30.960 disagree with you. Here's my My nuanced version is that I think it's actually 521 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.680 good to set up a five or ten year goal, but then hold it 522 00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:37.640 loosely. But it's the momentum towards that thing that opens up doors. You 523 00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:40.799 didn't even know we're there, right. You probably had some kind of ambition 524 00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:43.960 that you were shooting for. You're like, I want to start a business, 525 00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:46.200 and then an opportunity came along and you went in a different direction. 526 00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:50.680 Right. But I think sometimes you need the vision of where you're going. 527 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:52.960 I can pick a mountain peak on the horizon and I might change and say, 528 00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:54.599 like, you know, I'm not going to that peak anymore. I 529 00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:58.920 found a valley that I'm gonna hang out in a while anyway. But I 530 00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:00.440 wouldn't have gotten I would I found that valley if I had not tried to 531 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:05.079 get to that distant mountain peak, right, like setting up a vision and 532 00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:08.079 then just being loose with it. I agree with that. I think where 533 00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:12.880 I see people falter with that is I know a lot of people. One 534 00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:15.079 of my wife's really good friends, she's a she's a young lady who kind 535 00:34:15.079 --> 00:34:20.039 of she wants to have her life all figured out, like she wants to 536 00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:23.960 know what's going to happen, where it's going. She likes structure and control. 537 00:34:24.679 --> 00:34:29.960 And if it doesn't happen that way, is that a disappointment? Like 538 00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:36.039 I don't know, and I get nervous about setting up grandiose goals, finding 539 00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:40.440 a different path and having some folks consider that a disappointment. Like I always 540 00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:44.119 thought that I wanted to build a SAS business. Like I always thought that, 541 00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:46.400 And as I went through, like build my own software business, right, 542 00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:50.480 and as I went through the executive realm and kind of came out the 543 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:52.960 other side, became clearly evident to me that I did not want to do 544 00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:55.800 that. And I think a lot of people would feel really disappointed by that. 545 00:34:57.239 --> 00:34:59.440 Rather than feel disappointed by the fact that I didn't want to do that, 546 00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:01.199 I was so much more intrigued and excited about the things I do want 547 00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:05.320 to do, and so I think maybe I'm reframing it in my mind to 548 00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:07.320 avoid, you know, disappointment and stay positive. But that's how we think 549 00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:13.679 about it. Yeah, I definitely agree that there's a lot of disappointment setting 550 00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:16.079 up with goals. But I think that the trick is you have to remind 551 00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:22.599 yourself that goals are arbitrary things that you've set up there make believe. But 552 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:25.079 we get so disappointed for not meeting a goal that we totally made up and 553 00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:29.639 it's an arbitrary measurement. Usually I'm going to run a marathon like okay, 554 00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:31.719 like just twenty six miles and you only ran a half, Oh my gosh, 555 00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:35.119 But look at the game you made because you went there. You know. 556 00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:38.159 Yep. But I don't know. It's it's tough because I think goals 557 00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:42.239 are helpful because I think most of us are focused on goals in some way, 558 00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:45.719 right, Like we do everything's a goal related, whether we're going to 559 00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:49.440 get a drink of water or waking up early to work on a new book 560 00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:51.880 we're going to write or something like that. Yeah, my goal is to 561 00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.840 avoid doing things I don't like, and every day I discover a new way 562 00:35:55.880 --> 00:36:00.880 to do that. And so there's no like, there's no plan or framework 563 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:06.400 structure. It's just I try and hang around interesting people who have thoughts on 564 00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:09.800 how to how to do those things, and consume content that's interesting and helpful, 565 00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:13.880 and then create because I learned more when I create the one I consume, 566 00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:17.199 as you probably saw this morning, and and to me, like, 567 00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:22.320 I don't know if every day in life is the same and working towards the 568 00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:28.119 same thing, it just seems boring. Yeah, So find your principles, 569 00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:32.480 be yourself. Essentially, go on a journey to figure out what you like 570 00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:36.960 to do and share it on social along the way, and that starts to 571 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:39.320 develop a personal brand. Yeah, maybe you don't share it on social. 572 00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:44.679 Maybe you write a book, like maybe social is my distribution channel. I 573 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:49.679 happen to like writing short stuff, right, but like lots of people put 574 00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:55.360 it on YouTube, you won't see meither share your journey. Yeah, all 575 00:36:55.440 --> 00:37:00.119 right, this has been a really fun conversation to dive into the nuances of 576 00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:04.599 building a personal brand. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you 577 00:37:04.599 --> 00:37:07.760 feel like people should know about personal branding? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, 578 00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:09.920 I think there is. I think. I think one of it is just 579 00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:15.519 like have conviction. There are so many people online and in the real world 580 00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:21.679 right that when you are valuable and worth something to them, you know, 581 00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:25.039 pump you up, proper you up, support you, and when they recognize 582 00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:30.400 that you are of no value to them, they stop right And like, 583 00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:37.079 you should have the confidence in the conviction to unhooked from those people right away. 584 00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:43.199 And when you go share things online, don't share things because you think 585 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:47.960 it will resonate with other people. You should share things that you truly believe 586 00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:52.840 in and have conviction in, and some people will not like it. It's 587 00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:57.599 the people that do that will be your tribe, and the people that don't 588 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:02.239 will only push the people that do closer. And so having conviction is not 589 00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:06.719 only being true to yourself, but in the end, it's actually a strategy. 590 00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:09.800 M hm. That's good. Don't compromise. Don't compromise on what you 591 00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:14.079 believe in. Justin thank you so much for joining me on the show today. 592 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:17.360 Where can people go to learn more about you on building personal brands? 593 00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:22.159 And I know you have some very fun stuff coming up real soon. Um 594 00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:24.400 yeah, the best place to just follow me on LinkedIn. They can follow 595 00:38:24.400 --> 00:38:28.440 me on Twitter at Justin sas Justin s a A S. Or they can 596 00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:30.079 go to my website, which is a bit antiquated and not really about what 597 00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:34.440 I do anymore, but it's the official Justin I'm sure it'll redirect somewhere someday. 598 00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:42.400 It's a good place to check out what's coming next. B two B 599 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:45.360 Growth is brought to you by the team at sweet Fish Media. Here at 600 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:47.960 sweet Fish, we produce podcasts for some of the most innovative brands in the 601 00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:52.440 world, and we help them turn those podcasts into micro videos, LinkedIn content, 602 00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:57.000 blog posts, and more. We're on a mission to produce every leader's 603 00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:07.280 favorite show. Want more information, visit sweet Fish meetia dot com. M