Iteration over experimentation, with Maria Pergolino

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:21.559 Today, on B Two B growth, I'm excited to have Maria Pergolino with 3 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:26.679 me. She's a chief marketing officer at active campaign and we're actually welcoming her 4 00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:32.320 back to the show because she's been on three times, back in a couple 5 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:36.320 of times in actually, and then back in, but Maria will welcome to 6 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:41.000 be to be growth for the fourth time. Hi, thank you for having 7 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:44.960 me. It is a pleasure to come back and such a on Oor. 8 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:47.759 B Two B growth is such an important topic and such a good show. 9 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:53.439 Yes, I'm excited to chat today because you in an active campaign. You 10 00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:57.920 guys host like a hundred eight thousand plus customers hundred and seventy different countries. 11 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:02.399 So just a lot of moving parts, a lot of strategy that we could 12 00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:06.359 talk with you and I think it's fantastic for our B Two b marketers that 13 00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:10.000 are listening to this to get to tap into your wealth of wisdom and what 14 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:14.000 you're seeing from your seat. So I will be chatting about a lot of 15 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:18.159 different things today, but what I wanted to start with is you guys are 16 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:22.480 really not just a pure like Sass enterprise marketing right. There's a lot of 17 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:27.280 SMB work. There's this mix of like self serve and sales reps, and 18 00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:30.519 so it keeps you on your toes. I think when we were talking in 19 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:34.760 the prep call you said it's a really fun challenge. So so talk to 20 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:38.879 me a bit, Maria, about what you're focused on these days and what 21 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:42.799 active campaign is up to in the world. Yeah, over are about half 22 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:47.879 our businesses outside of the US. You said a D seventy different countries. 23 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:53.319 That is more than McDonald's hosts, you know, in different countries. When 24 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:57.159 you think about a d eighty thousand customers, if we were a pure consumer 25 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:00.200 brand that that might not sound huge, but as we think about a B 26 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:05.359 two B brand, that would be more customers than, I think, what 27 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:08.800 salesforce has ever reported. I think they're last their highest was a hundred and 28 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:13.800 fifty thousand that they ever reported. Now we obvious we are not as large 29 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:17.919 as salesforce and that's because we would have a lower SP average sales price and 30 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:23.599 that is because we served that strong mix of customers which includes smaller businesses. 31 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:30.759 The smaller businesses often closed, but some larger through that self serve channel. 32 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:34.919 But sometimes people want to learn more, they need more details and that goes 33 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:38.560 through a sales rep that creates some awesome lovers right. When you think about 34 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:43.240 marketing, it is when do you want to engage with a customer and when? 35 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:46.879 When is it great for them to and, you know, not talk 36 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:52.879 to somebody in the company? I just recently bought a new piece of fitness 37 00:02:52.919 --> 00:02:57.000 software and winning to me was not not getting great help, it was not 38 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.759 needing help right and that's why you really want to think about that customer lifecycleism 39 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:05.759 marketer on that self serve piece, but also make sure you have the right 40 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:08.599 materials so your sales team can go deep when somebody needs it. Yeah, 41 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:13.479 what's been the most unique challenge? Just making sure that you have everything they 42 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:16.599 need to be to say that you can like be self serve and really like 43 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:20.000 give people what they need at the right time. Is that a lot of 44 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:23.159 what you're focused on? Yeah, I've been thinking a lot lately about what 45 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:28.800 people come and say they're looking for and what they're really trying to solve, 46 00:03:28.919 --> 00:03:30.439 and I don't know that they're always the same thing. I always think back 47 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:36.439 to uh there was a study and well over a decade agore an example that 48 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:42.080 was published in Harvard Business Review. They talked about how people said as they 49 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:45.919 got older they didn't need dining rooms. So all these houses started coming without 50 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:49.360 big dining rooms, but actually it was hard to get them to transition because 51 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:52.400 they didn't want to give up all their furniture. Right. And so what 52 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:54.759 people say they want and what what's actually going to allow them to make that 53 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:59.439 move or sometimes two different things. And I think the same as we think 54 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:03.000 about the challenges that we have. What people you know, they may come 55 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:08.599 to us saying, Hey, we need crm or email marketing, but ultimately 56 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:12.599 it's how do they grow their business? What do they need to help engage 57 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:16.120 better with their customers and helping them with lots of different ways beyond what they 58 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:19.279 originally come to us with. You know, how do we help them automate 59 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:23.399 in a great way and how do we introduce that to them when they that 60 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:28.120 may not be what they originally came to us for? Right? I imagine 61 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:31.399 part of this too, is like with that many people coming to you and 62 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:36.600 that's kind of scale. You can't just typically boil down like use cases into 63 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:41.199 like these nice NEAT I C P. So how do you think of that 64 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:44.519 and, like the customers that you serve? Yeah, I think what you'd 65 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:47.839 call what I just described in that that dining room example, is jobs to 66 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:50.160 be done. What are the jobs that somebody's trying to do? What are 67 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:55.720 they really trying to accomplish and trying to solve for that, I think another 68 00:04:55.759 --> 00:05:00.040 way that marketers often talk about her what are the pains that people have and 69 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.800 how do we help solve that? In our case it's not necessarily a pain 70 00:05:03.879 --> 00:05:08.160 somebody has. It's not a pain to engage with your customers. But how 71 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:11.040 do we help them engage? How do we help them save times they can 72 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:14.759 put more into their business? Uh, and how do we make sure you 73 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:18.079 know, when you're a company that, let's say, is helping build homes 74 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:20.680 or helping, you know, making pizza, whatever that is, you want 75 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:25.160 to spend your time doing that. You don't want to spend it all day 76 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:29.040 sitting behind a computer, you know, thinking about marketing or thinking about your 77 00:05:29.079 --> 00:05:32.879 sales. We want to help automate the pieces that are repetitive so that you 78 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:35.879 can, you know, put your touch to those things, have a genuine 79 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:39.879 conversation, but then also spend your time doing the thing that you're going to 80 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:45.079 do best. Yeah, I know your marketing is is a bit unique in 81 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:47.199 that you guys have chosen to take this route of going we're gonna have five 82 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:53.160 main channels and they're pretty evenly dispersed. Walk us through the five, because 83 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:57.319 I think that's a it's an interesting approach. Yeah, so we have, 84 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:01.040 as you said, five sources, the way that we classify our marketing. 85 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:06.360 That would be things that I'm sure every marketer thinks about in some cases and 86 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:10.560 once you may not be thinking about. One is organic, just people that 87 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:15.000 come to you through a Google search or through some type of search engines. 88 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:18.279 That could be a social media search engine. The next is affiliates, people 89 00:06:18.279 --> 00:06:20.879 that go out and talk about us. You may think of it as influencer 90 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:26.279 marketing. For us there are those influencers, but also people that are truly 91 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:30.040 consider themselves affiliates and do that as a full time job. Next or agencies, 92 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:34.800 people that are helping implement our services with our customers. Uh. Next 93 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:41.240 would be paid marketing that we do and then finally, we group together those 94 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:45.160 people that come directly to us. It's a little bit of the other bucket, 95 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:47.199 but we call it direct because often the reason we don't have the data 96 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:51.240 is not because our systems are bad. We get the great pleasure of using 97 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:56.560 active campaign for all of our sales and marketing, but it's because they come 98 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:00.160 directly to our website or they come directly to a page that has a free 99 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:04.040 trial, and so we don't know what was behind that. But all of 100 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:06.639 those may sound you may say, Hey, we do all of those wre 101 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:12.800 we do three out of the five of those. But generally speaking those five 102 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:15.600 have each represented, you know, equally in the business, are close to 103 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:21.800 equally, and we've been able to use them almost like dial so is one, 104 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:27.759 you know because of Covid, because of the changing macroeconomics. You know, 105 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:30.240 do we want to dial one up or dial one down? And that's 106 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:33.399 been really exciting. Yeah, take me a layer deeper on that, because 107 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:39.680 I had the five always been around since you came on as CMO. It 108 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:42.399 was this something that you brought in as as a plan? Like how have 109 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:46.199 you guys build the business around this form of marketing in these five, five 110 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:50.519 channels? Yeah, the CEO is definitely a visionary and he saw these channels 111 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:55.120 is when he was starting the business. I think very similarly, he saw 112 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:59.879 how important international was and thought about localization in our product very early on, 113 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:03.959 and so I think just you know, if anybody's on here that is a 114 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.720 Solo Preneur, an entrepreneur. You know, the company is a twenty year 115 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:15.040 old company and the CEO saw spent the first well over a decade until two 116 00:08:15.079 --> 00:08:20.439 thousand and sixteen, really learning the industry. He had an on premise solution 117 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:24.800 and took all those learnings, which not only on the product but also on 118 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:28.279 the go to market side, and really build an amazing model that we bring 119 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:31.120 forward today. We continue to add to it and test new things and some 120 00:08:31.159 --> 00:08:37.000 of those channels have changed radically, for example digital marketing. Of course there's 121 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:43.200 been PPC for a very long time, but Kudos to Google. They have 122 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:48.639 figured out how to monetize every single piece of it. What worked years ago 123 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:54.159 does not necessarily work today, and so there's definitely it's not just a carry 124 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.960 forward. What has been interesting from my side is that one they can counterbalance 125 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:03.080 to each other. So you know, we're right now, as as you 126 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:07.919 and I are on this call. It's August and we see some countries may 127 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:11.720 have more vacation or not be doing business the same way we see some of 128 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:16.440 our agency partners that may not be selling as much this month but will have 129 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:22.600 really strong business in September. The flip of that is we can then increase 130 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.120 paid or we can roll out some organic campaigns to counter that. And so 131 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:30.559 really we've been able to learn a lot about each of the channels and use 132 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:35.000 the the opposite, you know, the other channels, to create some even 133 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:39.200 flow for our teams, which is pretty amazing. When I look at those 134 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:45.799 five, I think especially the affiliate and like marketing has evolved so much in 135 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:48.080 the last five years. I mean they all have developed in their own right, 136 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:50.840 but that's the one that's really standing out to me, and maybe it's 137 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.480 because we're talking about about it. Around B two B growth and around sweet 138 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:58.720 fish. How has your thinking evolved there? What are you guys doing strategically 139 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:01.360 that maybe we could learn from? Mr Scifically, when it comes to affiliate 140 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:05.320 marketing, yeah, I think that. What I say about affiliate marketing is 141 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:09.039 that you can definitely programatize some of your affiliate marketing. You go to our 142 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:11.519 website, it tells you what a great value it is to be an affiliate 143 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:16.200 for us. We highlight the fact that our average affiliate makes over a thousand 144 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:20.960 dollars for bringing a customer to us. That's not insignificant. I can think 145 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:24.879 of another company in a similar space and I think they say that that it's 146 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:30.320 like fifty some dollars. So there's we're definitely marketing the program. But I 147 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:33.159 think beyond that, you know we just brought on a new president, but 148 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:37.799 this has always been the case for our CEO that the customer really has to 149 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:43.360 take that center stage. I know every company says their customer centric, but 150 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:48.159 being customer centric is is not just saying, and you know that you're you 151 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:52.759 support the customer and doing customer calls. It's really using data, using all 152 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:58.200 the information you have about your customers to continue to engage with those customers, 153 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:01.000 bring them success so they'll continue to talk to you. And I think that 154 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:05.759 because we have such a large customer set for a B Two B business, 155 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:11.120 it allows us to look at data in interesting ways and then we do carry 156 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:15.159 that, you know, desire to have great customer conversations. One thing that 157 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:18.679 I'm really proud of for this company, that our CEO personally drives is that 158 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:22.200 when we get together as a company, when we do what some people might 159 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:28.080 call on all hands or a company update. Every part of that has customer 160 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:31.279 stories, customers talking through it. I don't think we've had, I mean 161 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.360 in years, one that didn't have three, four or five customers is a 162 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:41.159 part of that session. We do calls, I think twice a month where 163 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:46.440 anybody in the company can join to listen to customers give feedback uh, and 164 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:50.720 sometimes that's to the positive and new features. Sometimes that's the negative because they've 165 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:54.080 chosen other path. Because I think it's easy to say we'll talk to customers, 166 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:58.000 but sometimes people learning jobs that you can talk to a customer. You 167 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:01.200 just don't know how are you feel uncomfortable with picking up the phone. The 168 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:05.840 other thing I'd say for the marketing team is we have so we give every 169 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:09.919 one of our employees an active campaign account and I think we have three or 170 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:13.759 four, maybe five marketers on the team that are using active campaign to help 171 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:18.840 support side businesses. But that brings product knowledge, that brings a customer into 172 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:26.039 almost every one of our meetings and so that customer piece ties to that affiliate, 173 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:30.799 because so many of our affiliates or influencers are just customers that are carrying 174 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.120 that forward and say hey, wait a second. Not only can I use 175 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.279 this great tool, but it's gonna pay for itself, not only because it's 176 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:39.159 great software, but because they're gonna pay me to share this with our my 177 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:43.679 friends. And so when you log into the platform, there's a little heart 178 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:48.679 and there's a referral program with that and if you do a couple, we 179 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:52.399 reach out to you and we try to bring you into a more structured affiliate 180 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:54.960 program. Hell, love that. Yeah, thanks for breaking that down. 181 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.919 I think that's an easy way. You can go really deep into that, 182 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:00.840 but you want to create those passionate advocates. We all want that right for 183 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.440 our brand, and so I wanted to hear like the unique ways you're doing 184 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:07.919 that. And I love also that you're empowering your people with their side businesses, 185 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:11.559 because the more that they know and the more that they use that product, 186 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:13.879 they're like you. Just you want your marketing team to be in it 187 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.120 right, not just like trying to promo and make the brand look shiny, 188 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:22.120 but actually like actively using it. So that's that's great. One thing you 189 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:26.320 had mentioned, and you've brought up your CEO a couple of times, but 190 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:31.559 you've also talked about how there's a d n a of mobility and optionality that 191 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:35.320 he brought to the table and that's something that's infused into the team as a 192 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:39.000 whole. But that's also playing out in your marketing with having these five channels. 193 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:43.960 I wonder how, like how has the CEO infused those things, optionality, 194 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:48.440 mobility, and when you're at such scale, like how do you continue 195 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:52.720 to be somewhat nimble in your approach right, because that's I think that's something 196 00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:56.799 that a lot of people look at big companies and they go and it's it's 197 00:13:56.840 --> 00:14:00.960 hard to steer the ship in a sense, and and and sort of fast 198 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:05.600 movement. Yeah, I'm going to just make a couple of statements kind of 199 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:09.519 to that. Maybe not all connected, but they come to mind. One 200 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.600 is that it is imperative. One thing that is unique about me, and 201 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:18.440 I didn't here a lot about myself, but I have specifically helped companies and 202 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:22.000 all the calls I've been on have with you before have been around, have 203 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:26.080 been for companies where we were trying to grow from a hundred million to I. 204 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:30.639 P O or tow that larger company, and I think one of the 205 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:35.919 things that happens that is that can be really dangerous as you try to build 206 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:37.120 in scales. So the way I think about it kind of, you know, 207 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:41.879 when your company is really small, you're thinking about product fit. Once 208 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:43.399 you get that product fit, you're really trying to come up with what are 209 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.639 the paths to success, kind of what we talked about at active campaign, 210 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:50.720 you know those on the marketing side of those five channels right that that's been 211 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:54.399 happening. So let's say up to ten million you're doing or twenty million you're 212 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:58.399 doing product fit. Twenty million to that whatever eighty million you're figuring out in 213 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:03.279 each of the t is what works. It's not necessarily scaled, but you're 214 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:05.679 coming up with what is special about the organization. And then you get to 215 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:09.360 this point where you have to figure out how to scale it up, and 216 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:13.519 I end up specializing with that scale. Uh, and so I think my 217 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.840 job is to bring that vision that the CEO and, uh now our new 218 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:22.039 president are looking for, you know, to in a bigger way and scaled. 219 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:26.679 But one of the most dangerous things that happen is a team. You 220 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:31.279 bring a team on and they see what what great looks like at a ten 221 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:35.600 thousand, uh twenty thousand and fifty thousand person company when we're a thousand people. 222 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:41.440 And I think the people think scale is getting all the systems in place 223 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:43.360 so you can be that twenty thousand person company. But that can sink a 224 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:48.000 company because it's so costly to operate if you're a thousand person company, to 225 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:52.720 operate as if you're a twenty person company. That's a wealthy you really have 226 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:58.679 to continue to bring some of that scrappiness and you have to make sure that 227 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:03.120 you may see what is down the road, but pick and choose. One 228 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:06.720 of the things, and I keep mentioning our CEO, but again a true 229 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:12.399 visionary Jason, he has brought to our annual planning process is not just what 230 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:15.919 is the plan, but what are we admitting? What are we not going 231 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:21.200 to do? And that's been really important because even though it's a good idea, 232 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:23.000 that doesn't mean it has to be the idea for today. We may 233 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:26.840 have ten years and you may want to choose to do that in your eight 234 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:32.320 and so I think I think that has been really critical for that scale. 235 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:37.039 Continuing to we I've mentioned, we've added a president of the Organization, Samir, 236 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:42.840 who Causey, who is really added to I don't think brought a different 237 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:47.000 view. He's brought complementary views. I think one of the things he's really 238 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:48.879 talked about is how do you flatten the organization? How do you make it 239 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:53.279 that you're not so, as a leader, distant from the team that you 240 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:57.240 don't really understand what's going on? And and I've really found great power in 241 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:03.360 that and really heard him in that because, if you know, nobody wants 242 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:07.319 to be at a company where it feels like like it's disconnected. So I 243 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:11.599 think that's powerful. So there's there's these things that come together and it's again 244 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.880 not not in what is going to be perfect, but what is right for 245 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:21.880 the company today and sets up scale for down the road. Yeah, it's 246 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:26.440 interesting. You mentioned scrappiness there and I know you also are very opinionated on 247 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:30.440 iteration over experimentation, and I want to talk about that for a second because 248 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:34.480 sometimes when people think of scrappy they might think, well, we just were 249 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:38.680 constantly experimenting, trying new things. But you'd actually say, okay, maybe 250 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:41.960 that's not the smartest way, maybe not just like all this random business work. 251 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.640 Right. So I do think, and this maybe it will be the 252 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:52.799 most provocative thing I say, I am not a fan of like fail fast 253 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:57.240 or like where people say, Hey, it's it's okay to to try something 254 00:17:57.279 --> 00:18:02.400 and fail. I think it's marketers. We have so much data available to 255 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:07.960 us and we have so many other marketers who are happy to share that we 256 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:12.119 can really make very good, educated guesses and we can like sometimes somebody'll say, 257 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:15.680 hey, we tried webinars and they don't work. Well, that's how. 258 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:18.400 How? What you mean? They don't work that don't find someone who's 259 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:21.960 good at it right. You can from let's. You know, we're talking 260 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:25.200 on a podcast right now. Somebody will say, Oh, podcast, we 261 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:29.119 tested it didn't work, and I think that you can make anything work, 262 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:33.319 but you can't make everything work, and I think often when something fails it's 263 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.680 because you're not putting everything into it. Instead, what I'd say is, 264 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.880 like, choose something and come with a plan to do it in an amazing 265 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:45.759 way and outdo everybody else in it. And that's where then that iteration comes 266 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:48.880 in, because you've we we talked about the emissions. Be Okay with the 267 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:51.240 things you're not going to do. So maybe if you're doing a podcast, 268 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:55.400 don't do webinars. You're not gonna be to maybe do both great. So 269 00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:59.839 choose one that you're going to do great and then really do it well and 270 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.119 continue to iterate on it and get it too better and get it too better 271 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:07.039 and make that work. And so less of they fail fast, but really 272 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.559 infused the things. Uh, you know, put the energy to where something 273 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:15.519 you know, you think can have juice. Now. If that really isn't 274 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:18.359 working, don't, don't just, you know, live by it and and 275 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:22.319 let's not they continue on. That's that's not going to be a success. 276 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.000 But I think a lot of times we give up on things too soon or 277 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:32.400 we will just be trying everything and and that's a great path to inefficiency. 278 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:37.480 It's interesting because in some B two B companies it seems like there's this old 279 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.640 way of doing marketing that they're like stuck in and it kind of gives b 280 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.720 two B like that. B Two B is boring branding, right, like 281 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:48.720 B two beanies. Look, we we have all those fun conversations. So 282 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:52.559 in a sense it's like they're not trying any of the things and then when 283 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:56.319 they go to try it's like, well, we have a presence on all 284 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.359 these different platforms. And I put that in quotes because their present this is 285 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.960 like a random post on all the platforms because they think they have to post 286 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:08.079 something across all of them. You're advocating for hey, pick one, get 287 00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:11.720 really good at it and then maybe go on to the next one. Right, 288 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.680 yeah, and and that doesn't mean so, let's say, let's say 289 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:18.960 we are talking about different platforms. If you do a Webinar and you take 290 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:22.480 a clip of that and put that on a tiktok account and don't have a 291 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:25.400 full effort into Tiktok, like maybe that's just fine. It was five minutes 292 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:30.519 and maybe your first thirty videos get very little traffic, but it may build 293 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:34.000 up a base and and maybe there's something to their algorithm. We're having some 294 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:38.559 time and some volume on the platform helps and just be okay with them doing 295 00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:44.000 that like quick five minute posts and then when you're ready, it's okay that 296 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:47.400 like then really go at it right, like it's Um. So when I 297 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:49.359 say all or nothing, it doesn't mean like do not log into it, 298 00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:55.279 do not touch it, but I think it goes less about the channels that 299 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:59.079 way, but more like, you know, we we talked about affiliate programs 300 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.759 or influence ers. Like if you say, Hey, you know what we're 301 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:06.000 not doing an affiliate program. I heard Marina talk about it. We're just 302 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.680 gonna go do it and we're gonna test it out. If nobody on your 303 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:11.799 team has experience in that, if you're learning it from scratch one, that's 304 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:17.039 a very inefficient way to try to do marketing. Now you're paying somebody to 305 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:19.319 learn something where there's probably experts like. What I'd say is, if that's 306 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:22.680 what you really decide to do, go get an expert, somebody who has 307 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:26.440 experienced with it. Have them teach your organization. Maybe there's somebody you hire, 308 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.759 maybe it's a consultancy, and then you know, task them for not 309 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:33.720 letting it fail. Not Hey, let me find somebody. We don't have 310 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.799 experience doing it, we don't know how to measure it, because that is 311 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:42.519 definitely a path to inefficiency or or not being successful. Yeah, yeah, 312 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:47.519 I think of our our journey, even with the channels that we really focus 313 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:51.599 on, and we took a bit of like a an approach of okay, 314 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:55.039 we're gonna be on these few channels and we just once we knew that most 315 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.319 of our success was coming from linkedin. As far as organic organically, we 316 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:03.720 just double down there instead of staying so spread and we've added experimentation in a 317 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:10.240 channel like a tiktok. But knowing, like where you're seeing success and allowing 318 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:15.640 yourself to really, like be there long enough to iterate and find more success 319 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:19.440 right and I actually create that is so important. So I like, I 320 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:22.799 appreciate how you broke that down. I wonder, as we're kind of coming 321 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.880 to the end of our time together, Maria, like coming out of this 322 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:30.759 conversation. We've talked about iteration, we've talked a bit about creating this sort 323 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:36.359 of like DNA in your company, that is about optionality, about mobility. 324 00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:38.200 We talked about the five channels. But if, if there's a marketer listening 325 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:41.359 and they're going, okay, coming out of this conversation with Benji and Maria, 326 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:45.000 I'm gonna go back to my job tomorrow and this is something I can 327 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.279 do differently. This is maybe a question I can ask myself for something I 328 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:53.039 can be thinking about that makes me a better marketer. What would you say 329 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:56.119 to that person that's listening right now? Oh, that is so good. 330 00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:59.880 I wonder if in our prep I gave an answer there. I'm trying to 331 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:03.720 remember if I, uh, if if I had something there. I mean, 332 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:10.519 I I really think that prioritization is you know, a lot of what 333 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:15.359 we're hearing is we're talking about iteration as we're choosing what's going to be successful, 334 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:18.200 as we talked about emissions. The theme that is running through that is 335 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:25.240 prioritization, and I am relentless to my with my prioritization. I start the 336 00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:29.240 day knowing what I want to accomplish, and that doesn't mean it always goes 337 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:33.240 perfectly and that doesn't mean that I'm not going to pivot, but I know 338 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.519 I always start with this is what I want to get done, and that 339 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:40.279 normally ties to what I state that I want to get done for the week. 340 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:44.279 And I am UN yielding there to the point where that that means that 341 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.200 I don't get to email, if I don't get to slack, if somebody 342 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:51.240 you know, sometimes I will let things go unheard. My email box is 343 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:55.400 definitely not my to do list, and that is so much so that you 344 00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:00.400 can find people in Lincoln talking about me taking that approach, because if email 345 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:03.599 me and it's not on the topic that I'm working on, that it is 346 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:06.920 not doing the right thing for the company to spend my time on that and 347 00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:10.759 that doesn't mean that it's okay to be totally unresponsive or anything like that, 348 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:15.319 but I do think that when people say they're good at prioritization, they you 349 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.960 just have to be even better, because it's really easy to get distracted, 350 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:22.160 and it is. You know, I always say that you have to do 351 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:26.240 something exceptional to get an exceptional response. And the one thing I can say 352 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:30.359 about the companies that I've worked with they have you know, people say, 353 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:33.680 Ah, you really pick great companies, and and I do pick companies that 354 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:38.640 have good market opportunities, which helps, but then you have to do something 355 00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:42.359 special. You have to do something exceptional to have that, to have that 356 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:48.000 outside growth. And UH, the only way to do something exceptional is either 357 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:49.839 to work twenty four hours a day, have everybody do that, which is 358 00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:56.559 not sustainable, or to really prioritize. So I would really encourage every market 359 00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.480 or too to really think about how they're spending their time and if it makes 360 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:03.599 a difference. And you know, not everything has to be done to a 361 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:07.200 percent, not every check has to you know, checkbox has to be checked, 362 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:10.880 and that's where I see that going wrong. Is, you know, 363 00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:12.640 we want to get our data perfect, but really if it's at eight percent, 364 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:17.000 maybe that's good enough too and allows us to work on something else. 365 00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:19.000 And I don't know as much as people can think about that. I think 366 00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:22.240 it's useful. I love that as the answer. I gotta tell you we've 367 00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:27.000 been doing original research for B two be growth and having these discussions, and 368 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:33.359 so we we interviewed a hundred marketing leaders last year and actually just in the 369 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.920 last few weeks we released an episode as like tackling this question of what's your 370 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:41.880 marketing team's biggest struggle, and the answer we saw by far was focus. 371 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:47.559 And so having that, wherewithal right to go. Here's the main things. 372 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:49.640 This is what we're focused on from the top down. For you as a 373 00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:56.519 CMO and flowing all the way through your team is absolutely vital and speaks to 374 00:25:56.599 --> 00:26:00.240 what we're seeing as a larger trend within B two B marketers going yeah, 375 00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:03.000 I gotta learn to focus, and so that's our homework. Continues to be 376 00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:07.759 a drumword beating at B two B growth, and Maria did it without even 377 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.279 knowing, probably because she's been on the show before. So I really appreciate 378 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:15.000 that. This has been a fantastic conversation. There's gonna be listeners that are 379 00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:21.160 new and want to be able to stay connected to you. What's the best 380 00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:25.559 way for them to do that and then maybe plug active campaign as well and 381 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:30.839 how people can can stay connected there. Yeah, active campaign is an amazing 382 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:34.599 company. It's what we use to run our own marketing and our our success 383 00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:41.720 is one that to be proud of, right and so we help companies with 384 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:47.359 what we call customer experience, but really what we're doing is integrating email marketing, 385 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:52.319 marketing automation crm so that you have all of the automation tools you need 386 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:57.480 to build great relationships. I think you know an example that I would say. 387 00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:03.000 It's like you're when you get in order or you have a customer reach 388 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:07.200 out. You should have visibility into that and your marketing campaign should keep that 389 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:11.960 in mind. And right now our systems are so siloed often that that is 390 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:15.160 impossible to do and you're really not creating a great customer experience. So active 391 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:18.599 campaign, as you're trying to bring your marketing to the next place and and 392 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.519 really want to think about customer experience, we are excited to talk to you 393 00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:25.640 about that. I don't remember the other Oh, and to get in touch 394 00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:30.200 with me, either to talk about active campaign or to answer any questions or 395 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:36.000 learn more. On almost every social channel you can find me as inbound marketer, 396 00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:41.200 I N B o n d inbound marketer on twitter, instagram, all 397 00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.240 of those. UH excited to talk to everybody, excited to connect. Absolutely 398 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.279 well, Maria, it has been an absolute pleasure and for everyone listening. 399 00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:52.799 If this is the first time that you're tuning in and you haven't followed the 400 00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:56.440 show yet, we're having conversations like this consistently because we want to continue to 401 00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:00.440 improve. So follow the show. You can chat with me about this episode 402 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:03.119 or anything you're learning and marketing over on Linkedin. We'd love to hear from 403 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:07.759 you and I keep doing work that matters. Maria, thanks for being here. 404 00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:15.279 Thank you. Thank you so much. We're always excited to have conversations 405 00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:18.039 with leaders on the front lines of marketing. If there's a marketing director or 406 00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:22.079 a chief marketing officer that you think we need to have on the show, 407 00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:26.200 reach out email me, Benji dot block at Sweet Fish Media Dot Com. 408 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:27.519 I look forward to hearing from you.