How Narrative, Category, & Community Work Together, with Kalim Aull

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:16.039 --> 00:00:20.039 Welcome back to BTB growth. I'm Dan Sanchez with sweet fish media and I'm 3 00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:25.800 here with Klim Oh, who is the CO founder of service cycle. Gleim, 4 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:29.160 welcome to the show. Thanks, N I appreciate being here with you 5 00:00:29.960 --> 00:00:32.439 because I guess I could say welcome back to the show. This is actually 6 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:35.679 a second time we've had you on in the last couple of months. Klim 7 00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:40.359 is somebody that I see often on Linkedin and he first popped up in a 8 00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:44.640 huge linkedin post that I had with a huge, like just a massive amount 9 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:49.560 of comments. We were all arguing and talking about what the heck demand generation 10 00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:52.759 is, because I was frustrated because after reading about it, I still wasn't 11 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:55.840 any closer to understanding what the heck it actually was, because it sounded like 12 00:00:55.920 --> 00:01:00.200 marketing. It sounded like everybody had different definitions, and he stepped in this 13 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:02.920 awesome graphic that brought a lot of clarity to it. Now we ended up 14 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:06.280 doing a show with them on that, with Leslie Cruz, who did a 15 00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:07.640 deep dive on bdob growth just a few months ago, and I know you 16 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:11.040 were one of those episodes and that was great. It was just super helpful. 17 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:17.359 But recently he popped up again in my news feed with another, in 18 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:21.480 my opinion, like a game changing concept, and I was like, I 19 00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:23.920 think James Tagged me in. It was like Dan, you have to look 20 00:01:23.959 --> 00:01:27.920 at this, and I'm like yes, welcome back to the show because I 21 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:32.480 wanted to talk about it. And the concept that this is is called the 22 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:38.120 brand evolution Flywheel, right, and it incorporates three major parts of Narrative, 23 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:42.200 category and community. It just so happened to be three things that are like 24 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:46.519 the hot topic and B Two B marketing right now, because everybody's talking about 25 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:52.640 strategic narrative, category design and building authentic communities, and the way he pulled 26 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:57.439 it together into this concentric circle where one plays into the other was a very 27 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:00.879 fascinating concept. Now it's when you look at the effeck and off the link 28 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:02.680 to it in the show notes that will describe it in more detail as we 29 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:07.840 go because we're going to talk about the three major sections of it. It's 30 00:02:07.959 --> 00:02:09.879 you have to kind of stare at it and it it requires thoughts. Like 31 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:13.439 you know, it's not as clear as the last graphic I saw where it's 32 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:15.680 kind of like concentric circles of like a B M in the middle and then 33 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:19.319 demanding and then brand on the outside. Like that was really simple. You 34 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:22.520 understood it immediately. This one, like, actually takes some steady but still 35 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:25.759 brings a lot of clarity to what I think there's are three major topics that 36 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:30.360 B two b community is talking about but is grappling with how to put them 37 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:34.960 all together. So, to kick it off, can you tell me a 38 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:38.919 little bit about like where did this brand evolution fly wheel come from? Like 39 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:42.879 where did the Aha moment come to you? Yeah, you know, to 40 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:46.080 be honest, it's a process. It's been a process of, you know, 41 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:53.159 listening to experts in each of these individual areas. You know, you've 42 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:58.520 got your Andy Raskins for strategic narratives, you've got your Christopher lockheads for category 43 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:01.400 design, you've got your song ground as rays for community building. You know, 44 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:06.680 I'm watching all these people, listening to them, but I'm coming at 45 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:10.039 it from more of a macro, you know, go to market type of 46 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:15.120 look all the time, and and from the sustainable growth perspective of go to 47 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:20.479 market. So, Um, you know that that bigger GTM vision that I 48 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:24.560 always have, combined with me seeing the value, uh that that all these 49 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:30.400 people are are bringing, allowed me to start connecting the dots and see how 50 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:36.240 these categories are phases play out over your g t m cycle. Right, 51 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:40.080 so you'll be you'll you'll start out much more heavy on the narrative, even 52 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:46.319 though technically you're doing all three of these things simultaneously all the time. It's 53 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:51.199 not like one to three, but it is like waiting. Right, you're 54 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:58.680 waiting whichever phase matches your GTM position. Right. So what phase do you 55 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:01.120 think people start with the most when it comes to narrative? Why? In 56 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:05.319 this circle, he has it as narrative on top, which kind of flows 57 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:10.400 into category, which kind of flows into community and then flows back into narrative. 58 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:13.919 Which one is the starting point, since it's a circle? So look, 59 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:18.600 you can frame this model in many ways. You could choose your own 60 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:23.879 starting point. In a sense, there's no problem with you know, you 61 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:27.959 may might have been building good relationships in the sense of community before you figured 62 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:30.600 out your narrative totally, and that's what kind of revealed your narrative to you 63 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:35.759 in the first place. They're also connected that there isn't really a starting point, 64 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:43.399 but I could evolve first on purpose, because it is like there is 65 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:50.120 a prioritization, because you can't really build community effectively and efficiently and and make 66 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:58.040 it happen at the scale that's required without a truly evolved narrative. It's like 67 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:02.959 the first requirement of every in order to have something that's worth unifying around, 68 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:08.319 right. I mean you can't launch out the gate thinking you have it all 69 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:12.399 together. It always is an evolution. It's always a thing that has to 70 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:16.560 be figured out over time, totally, totally, and I think that you 71 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:20.720 know what we're what I'm what I'm trying to suggest here is that the purpose 72 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:27.920 of all of this is to create unity around something, massive unity around something. 73 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:31.759 That's what the purpose of narrative is, and category it's not, in 74 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:36.199 my opinion, it's not to be number one. You end up leading the 75 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:41.439 category. That's just a byproduct. But if you think you're number one, 76 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:47.360 you may fall into the trap and you may end around one cycle and you 77 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:51.160 may not reinvent yourself because you think you're number one, and so you don't 78 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:56.959 learn from the community, you don't build community at a level that reveals the 79 00:05:56.959 --> 00:06:01.800 next narrative evolution. Right. So I'm very wary of even calling myself number 80 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:05.959 one. I get nervous about that. I'm like weld, no, hold 81 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:09.079 on, hold, on, hold, on hold on the market will decide 82 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:11.480 if I remember one or not. I don't have to say that for myself 83 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:15.600 right. But my goal is to always evolved that narrative and then create unity 84 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:19.560 around it. That makes sense. So it could start with community, could 85 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:24.439 start with narrative. I'd be hard pressed to say it starts with category, 86 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:27.639 because usually category has to start with a narrative of some kind. If you 87 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.720 don't have a narrative, you probably don't have a category. Even as I 88 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:32.959 think back to sweet fish media, in the narrative we've been telling, it 89 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:38.560 probably actually started in community because James is just so relational. You know so 90 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:42.040 many people. Has Been Collaborating with lots of people and then out of that 91 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:46.920 the narrative around BTB podcasting has been forming, which has kind of created a 92 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:49.759 category around B two B podcasting over the years, and now it's it's I 93 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:54.120 can see it swinging back into community. is where even now trying to figure 94 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:59.079 out how to create a stronger community than there already is. So around and 95 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:01.959 round it's been, but let's start at like narrative, because I feel like 96 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:05.920 a lot of things probably could start there. Oftentimes people start companies because they're 97 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:10.439 like, I'm scratching my own Itch, I had a problem, which is 98 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:13.399 the beginning of a narrative. Right. Um, I know that's how you 99 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:16.759 got started. Now, sweet fish got started as James. James wanted a 100 00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:21.800 way to meet more people and he discovered that podcasting was a great way to 101 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:27.439 get conversations with lots of people on top of making great content, and that's 102 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:31.279 how he started the way he does. B twob podcasting. So when you 103 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:35.120 look at narrative, how does it start with that, and what can companies 104 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:40.839 look at? Two kind of kick start this process? Yeah, so, 105 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:46.720 you know, I I do. I do come from the stance of solving 106 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:53.879 your own problems first. You know, I believe that personal frustration, personal 107 00:07:53.920 --> 00:08:01.079 struggle, it is the raw material through which great raatives are built. So, 108 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:05.279 you know, I I think that we do. I think we do 109 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:11.480 too much of trying to kind of right narratives for other people a little bit, 110 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:16.040 when I think that you have a better probability of success if you can 111 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:22.160 solve your own problem and involve that narrative for yourself. Most of the successful 112 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:28.319 companies that I've seen, or people actually don't not even companies, just people. 113 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:33.039 Right. They solve they have a period of frustration, there's some sort 114 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:39.519 of problem and over time they figure out a new, better way because there 115 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:43.000 is no alternative, like the problem is so irritating to them that they are 116 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:48.159 like destined to bring that new approach. So I think that, you know, 117 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.120 a lot of people will jump into the old world, new world. 118 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:54.559 Old Game, new game, which is perfect. I'm a hundred percent on 119 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.279 board. This is how you finalize it into a deck, right. But 120 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:03.279 that all that came from, you know, the garden of frustration. If 121 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:11.519 it doesn't, you risk you risk potentially confusing see Um, if you're guessing 122 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:16.720 a little bit too much. There is something powerful about the founder's story. 123 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:22.120 Probably one of the most powerful narratives you can have is that narrative. I 124 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:24.279 realized not everybody starts with that narrative though. You might have bought the company, 125 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:28.440 you might have inherited the company, you might have risen up the ranks 126 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:31.879 and it wasn't your story. But now that you're the CEO of the company, 127 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:35.679 right, there's there's many reasons why it might not be your thing, 128 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.240 or you just started a spotted a market opportunity, you were familiar enough with 129 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:41.919 the field and you capitalized on it, even though it wasn't your problem, 130 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:46.120 Um, to begin with. So it's not always you don't always have the 131 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:48.679 luxury of having that, though. If you do, man, that's such 132 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:54.120 a that's such a strategic advantage that you have over others in the market to 133 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:56.200 be able because you have, you have the feel yourself. It's not like 134 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.879 you need to go talk to your customers, though you still need to talk 135 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:01.759 to then, but you don't have to do it quite as much to have 136 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:05.360 an intuitive feeling whether something rings true or not, Um with the product and 137 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:07.879 with the marketing and messaging. So there's something about that. It is really 138 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:11.840 strong. But what would you say for everybody else? I mean, do 139 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:15.440 you try to be an old game new game? Yeah, so, so 140 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:18.960 that's the ideal. I'm painting the ideal for you. There the other way 141 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:22.559 it can work. So it's not like, uh, you know, an 142 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:26.399 ultimatum or anything. If you are in that situation where you know you just 143 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:30.840 you took over the CEO role and now you're running, running the business, 144 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:37.080 and you know the division is with you. I would hire somebody. I 145 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:41.120 would hire somebody. Either either you are that customer in a sense, or 146 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:46.720 you need somebody who does this right, Andy Raskin, or there's many others 147 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:50.240 right, but but that's the first name that comes to my mind. So 148 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:54.240 I do think that either you have that personal experience, that frustration, and 149 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:58.200 you solve the problem for yourself, so you are that, you are one 150 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:03.679 of the segments of customer in a sense, or that's not the case and 151 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.039 you need to collaborate to have a higher level of capability to be able to 152 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:13.759 find it exactly. so that's how we discover the narrative. How does that 153 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:18.000 bleed over into the category? Yeah, okay, so here. Here's the 154 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:24.320 thing is, I believe that the narrative will tell you what the category is 155 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:28.360 if you do, if you flush it out, well, the word will 156 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:35.480 surface. Once the narrative is clear enough, the word becomes obvious, or 157 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:39.000 the two words, whatever the category is called. So I think that what 158 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:43.240 you start to notice as you get through these you know, old game, 159 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:46.879 new game, old world, new world, old behavior, new behavior, 160 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:50.320 old results, new results. Right, if you flush all those out, 161 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:56.080 all of a sudden the words that you used to describe those things, the 162 00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:03.519 category comes out at you because you're describing the essence of old and new in 163 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:07.799 such a precise way that it's almost begging for this word. All Right, 164 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:13.600 I think the problem is when people start brainstorming like category names a little bit 165 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:20.360 too much instead of just focusing on the narrative and letting that be letting that 166 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.639 be revealed, letting it reveal itself. To a great extent, I think 167 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:30.120 the category has to be greatly organic. I never sat down and was like 168 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:33.600 sustainable growth, you know, and brainstormed a whole bunch of other names for 169 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:41.240 categories. So I think that my narrative, I knew my narrative intuitively really 170 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:46.360 well, and sustainable growth was just like the term that described clearly what I'm 171 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:48.759 talking about. So it's about a few people that have been doing this well, 172 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:52.279 like, let's reverse engineer what the narrative is behind a few categories that 173 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:56.440 have been buzzing around a lot. Let's start with account based marketing. What's 174 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:00.600 the narrative? So well, the account based marketing. The narrative is, 175 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:07.799 uh, quality is the new game and quantity is the old game. Quality, 176 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:13.799 relationships is the new game. Quantity relationships is the old game. Everybody. 177 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:18.919 Now we're just targeting a few. Prioritization is the new game, right, 178 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.840 the old the old game is. I don't know what the opposite of 179 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:26.480 prioritization is. It's it's target accounts. Or, sorry, it's target audience 180 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:31.639 versus target accounts. It's very different. Target audiences described through demographics, psycho 181 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:37.559 graphics. Target accounts are using firm a graphics, not even firm a graphics, 182 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:41.519 it's not even types, it's specifically these companies, right, which is 183 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:45.799 a very different approach, very different approach. Yeah, so a B m. 184 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:50.240 A B M says that you know, three percent of your people are 185 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:56.759 going to outpferform the other nine, seven percent, basically by a multiple, 186 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.919 saying that there's this tiny second of people that's actually meant to be in a 187 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:07.840 relationship with you. So the the older ways kind of suggest that, you 188 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:11.759 know, we can just kind of have more mediocre relationships and that's not going 189 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:16.440 to pull down, it's not going to weigh down our ship. Right. 190 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:18.879 So yeah, I mean that's yeah, a B M is a great a 191 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:22.279 great example. You go we can go to demand Gen right leaden demanding and 192 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.759 it's funny both both of them have a very different they both come out of 193 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:30.600 a frustration in that marketing B Two B marketing is not working, but both 194 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.799 have different and a different way of emphasizing and a different narrative behind them. 195 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:39.080 Right, with a B M it's we're not targeting the right accounts or we're 196 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:41.559 targeting too many accounts. With demand Gen it's we're not getting ahead of people. 197 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:46.960 Right, I mean, Chris Walker, we the M Q is dead. 198 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:54.039 We're just generating bad leads instead of actually helping people desire what we're even 199 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:58.679 offering. Yes, yes, we need to get ahead by generating demand instead 200 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:03.120 of capturing demand. I think it's the drum of demand Gen. Get ahead 201 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:07.399 of it, generate demand before it's just capturing it. Otherwise somebody else will 202 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.440 generate it and capture it. If you generate it, you generally capture it, 203 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:16.519 right, and that's kind of the thing. They linked together. Yeah, 204 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:18.120 so, yeah, demand Gen is a great one. We could do 205 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:26.879 um. Gone Right. Goodbye opinions, hello reality. The revenue intelligence is 206 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:31.519 kind of the now. Their narrative is interesting because I've heard, yeah, 207 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:35.879 he was on the show recently and talking about how the narrative came out of. 208 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:39.960 Well, we wanted to be able to sell to UH C R O 209 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:45.080 s and they weren't buying our previous narrative. They weren't buying because we didn't 210 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.399 have a category. We were a sale a call center tool instead of a 211 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:54.080 revenue tool. So we changed the category specifically to Target Enterprise Level C R 212 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:58.279 S who weren't interested in our thing. We wanted to make them interested in 213 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:00.279 our things, so we changed, we created every thing around this category called 214 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:03.279 Revenue Intelligence so that the C R would pay attention. But it doesn't come 215 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:10.279 out of like a dying need. Okay, so their situation is more of 216 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:14.120 the is more of the other situation that we're talking about where, you know, 217 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:17.480 there's investors and there's, you know, funding and there's a CEO who 218 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:22.639 comes in and CMO and blaw. I just think that they hired Andy Raskin. 219 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:27.080 Did they work with somebody who's talking with asking the whole time building the 220 00:16:27.159 --> 00:16:32.679 narrative? So so it just goes to show you they didn't do that in 221 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:36.840 a bubble, you know, isolated, siloed. They went to someone who 222 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:41.919 has been doing this their entire career and he facilitated that process for them and 223 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:48.039 eventually they stuck with something right and it worked. So yeah, it's really 224 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:52.919 it's sometimes. Sometimes it is literally solving your own problem, a massive problem, 225 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:56.519 and creating that new approach. or it's like you already have a new 226 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:03.039 approach to something, but you're just not framing it correctly so people understand you. 227 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.559 And that's was their situation. They're like, people don't actually care about 228 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:11.559 the what what we're calling this thing? Like we're calling it something that's absolutely 229 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:18.000 killing US instead of coming up with something original. Essentially it becomes a repositioning 230 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:22.839 play, but you're repositioning it in a new category. You're taking something you 231 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:27.160 already do well and refocusing it, which is why category design ultimately falls under 232 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:32.720 positioning as a, I guess, a marketing term. So we've talked a 233 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:36.599 lot about narrative. We've talked about how it informs the category. Let's talk 234 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:40.119 about how the category informs the community. And I've heard a lot of people 235 00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:42.200 say, like you don't really have a category until you have a community, 236 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:48.039 like the evidence of a community shows that you actually have a real category. 237 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:52.240 Yes, yes, and no, it's both. So I it's a complicated 238 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:56.119 answer. Yes, the community is the category. You Design the category to 239 00:17:56.279 --> 00:18:00.960 build the community. That is the purpose of designing the category in my mind. 240 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.799 Right. So they are connected so tightly, like they're almost one. 241 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:08.480 Right. However, there's there's a reason why I separated those two things into 242 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:14.839 phases, because I was highlighting the differences between that Um. So for me, 243 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:25.319 I I see the category design Um as designing your educational materials and facilitation, 244 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:30.880 community facilitation process. Right, there's this new approach and you're calling it 245 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:37.559 this thing, but do you have the wealth of resources? Do you have 246 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:42.039 those capabilities there for the community to take advantage of so that you can facilitate 247 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:47.920 success at scale? Because the category happens when there's success at scale. To 248 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:52.599 me, right. And so if you're looking at category design is just like 249 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:56.400 a way to own some sort of term, I think you're missing out on 250 00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:03.640 a large part of the fun and the revenue. So I suggest always looking 251 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:08.759 at category design as your your facilitation process. How are you going to make 252 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:14.359 things easier for people to act upon and actually do stuff? Right, if 253 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:18.079 we want people to start podcasts, we have to make it easier for them 254 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:22.000 to start podcasts somehow. If we want people to to change from lead gens 255 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.720 to demand Gen we have to make it easier for them to make those moves 256 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:33.799 without us right and so the category design is a lot about facilitating community success. 257 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.319 Hey, everybody, logan with sweet fish here. If you've been listening 258 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:41.640 to the show for a while, you know we're big proponents of putting out 259 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:47.319 original, organic content on Linkedin, but one thing that's always been a struggle 260 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:51.559 for a team like ours is to easily track the reach of that linkedin content. 261 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:55.160 That's why I was really excited when I heard about shield the other day 262 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.799 from a connection on, you guessed it, linked in. Since our team 263 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:03.480 started using shield, I've loved how it's led US easily track and analyze the 264 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:08.240 performance of our linkedin content without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically 265 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:14.359 creates reports and generates some dashboards that are incredibly useful to see things like what 266 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.759 content has been performing the best and what days of the week are we getting 267 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:22.640 the most engagement and our average views pro post. I highly suggest you guys 268 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.079 check out this tool if you're putting out content on Linkedin, and if you're 269 00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:29.440 not, you should be. It's been a game changer for us if you 270 00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:33.680 go to shield APP DOT AI and check out the ten day free trial, 271 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.839 you can even use our Promo Code B two B growth to get a discount. 272 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:42.519 Again, that's shield APP DOT AI and that Promo Code is be. 273 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:48.079 The number to be growth all one word. All right, let's get back 274 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:53.240 to the show. As you were talking, it occurred to me like with 275 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:56.559 the narrative you have the hy with the category you have the one, and 276 00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:00.920 with the community you have the WHO. It's almost like Simon Sinex, like 277 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:04.759 golden circles or whatever, but you're you're dropping the the how with the WHO. 278 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:08.039 But you have to start with the compelling why. That's the reason why 279 00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:11.640 we're all here, the reason why the what is so important, which is 280 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:15.839 the category. It's a new way of thinking, it's a new methodology, 281 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:19.119 it's a new framework or way of doing things. Um, but it's all 282 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:22.000 informed by the why, which is why you have to sometimes you can you 283 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:26.559 run into a compelling like what how to do things, but you don't have 284 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:30.599 a compell you have to figure out why people should care right, which is 285 00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.240 why the narrative is so important. And if they don't have a reason to 286 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:37.640 care, it's kind of like it just kind of gets lumped in with everything 287 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:40.400 else and people forget about it. But if you come come up with the 288 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:44.920 compelling why and how in a way to approach that why, which is the 289 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:47.839 category, and then the community cares, and that's where a lot of other 290 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:52.359 people start to get around it. Is that about right? That's brilliant, 291 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:56.599 man. That's brilliant. I love matching. You know, uh, why, 292 00:21:57.079 --> 00:22:00.839 what, how and who? Why? What? How and who around 293 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:06.160 this. I think that's a beautiful, beautiful comparison. As a beautiful comparison. 294 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:11.319 Down there you go making progress together. So we're around the circle. 295 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:14.920 Let's bring it back. So we have the narrative, we have a compelling 296 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:18.240 why, we have the category, which is the the how we're addressing this 297 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:22.240 why, and now we have a bunch of people that are that are nodding 298 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:25.160 their heads with us and saying, yes, this is the way, you 299 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:27.519 know, which is like your most probably the most common Hashtag I see either 300 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:33.400 on out there. Um Um. So we have a community around this new 301 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:37.480 way of doing things to address the why. How does that come back to 302 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:41.799 inform the Y? Oh, okay, that's that's good. That's good. 303 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:45.759 Okay. So, yeah, basically, what happens is the companies that that 304 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:52.480 design the category just to be number one don't end up building the community. 305 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.759 Right, okay, the companies that design a category with the intent of building 306 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:02.279 the community end up building the community and facility hating community success. So what 307 00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:07.519 ends up happening in that community building process is that you are seeing your approach, 308 00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:15.400 your methodology, playing out at scale and you're engaging and interacting with the 309 00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:22.359 people who are applying that methodology right, and you're getting such a good diversity 310 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:30.680 of examples in the community that another level of clarity starts to emerge over time 311 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:37.680 and there becomes another problem. Another problem emerges so that we can get to 312 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:44.839 the next level of success. Right. So the community shows you a bigger 313 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:48.839 problem that's connected to your original problem, but it's the next one on the 314 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:53.759 ladder, right, it's the next logical problem that's going to occur for your 315 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:59.880 community. So I think that the people who get too caught up in just 316 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.920 the company, the GT M, the company part of the go to market 317 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:11.519 right, and they neglect that wider, looser community building part of the process, 318 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:18.559 they never end up getting the type of perspective, customer perspective or player 319 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:25.839 perspective. People who are playing this game right. They are generally focused on 320 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:30.279 the numbers from their own customers, are getting new customers, but they're not 321 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:34.119 actually focused on the success stories or the failure stories, which is where those 322 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:40.279 insights emerged from. It's interesting. I'm trying to think of examples of companies 323 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:44.920 making the jump more than once. I'll probably think of some, though I 324 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:48.200 can think of a few that are making the jump now. I mean totally. 325 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:51.599 The A B M communities totally making the jump. Sand Graham is making 326 00:24:51.640 --> 00:24:55.200 his move with his next book, trying to evolves as the a B M 327 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:59.599 community has gotten bigger and has identified problems with the approach, you know, 328 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:02.279 because it's not a one size fits all. There are nuances to it. 329 00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:06.920 So naturally the community is going to evolve in demand bases taking their narrative, 330 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:11.240 is trying to trying to apply their what they think is the narrative is with 331 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:14.160 a B X, and I think sand Graham's taken a more gt m approach 332 00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:18.039 with his right. It's funny to see which one of them actually has the 333 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:22.680 narrative right. That's exactly it. So if if I am correct right, 334 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:25.119 maybe I'm not correct let's just see. Let's just see how it goes. 335 00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:32.440 If I'm correct, then some Graham's way is a better way. Unless I 336 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:34.400 don't know something about demand base, where they built this great community and they 337 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:38.359 found all this out to the community. Maybe that's true. Right. But 338 00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:41.720 if we're gonna play it out like a science experiment, this is a good 339 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:48.920 test of whether the community reveals a better narrative or whether you can kind of 340 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:55.240 just piece that together without without that, you know, so one live. 341 00:25:55.440 --> 00:26:00.160 I don't actually understand the nuances of how sand Graham is doing it under Dan 342 00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:03.559 demand basis route. I actually even talked to Sandraham about it and I was 343 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:06.400 like, I'm still I'm still waiting for his book to come out and then 344 00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:08.880 I'll probably understand. Demand Base is coming out of an approach of like a 345 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:14.240 B X is taking a B M and working it through the whole life cycle 346 00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:17.880 of the account. Like why do we just leave it as a marketing sales 347 00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:21.160 thing? Let's work it through as a customer success thing, a retention retention 348 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:22.920 thing, a turn thing, like you should be the whole the whole company 349 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:26.920 should be focused on a b M. Right. I think that's where they're 350 00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:30.640 going with it. He just never't read it, but I think from what 351 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:33.640 I've heard from him. UH, John Miller, I agree with that. 352 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:38.079 I agree with to me, to be honest, a B M is shifted 353 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:45.400 two thirds to your current clients. It's not even not that's I'm just coming 354 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:51.960 with a number, but it's hedged towards your current clients. That that's actually 355 00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:56.640 what it says, because you're you're expanding an account. The whole concept of 356 00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:00.559 a B M is to expand accounts. UH, there's no pre creation, 357 00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:07.359 concept of appreciation happening in a B M over time. So I think, 358 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:11.640 I think that they I think they're both right. You know, like GTM, 359 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:15.200 there is this orchestration between marketing and customer success, or marketing, sales 360 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:19.720 and customer success. Right there. There also is this truth that a B 361 00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:25.440 M is a full life cycle strategy, right. And so what's beautiful is 362 00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:30.680 that these two companies have agreed to no longer compete. Yeah, it's true, 363 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.480 they're splitting, splitting the A B M community in their different fields, 364 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:37.960 and we'll see which one becomes the bigger and more profitable one. Or maybe 365 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:40.680 they both, because it's not a zero sum game. Maybe both are wildly 366 00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:42.319 successful. Right. I think that's Coom and I hope I hope the boast 367 00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:47.200 for bath because they're both doing some cool stuff. Exactly. We're still I'm 368 00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:48.000 having a hard time. I can think of a few that have made the 369 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:52.400 jump once. I can't think of a single company that's made the jump multiple 370 00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:56.079 times. Now. It takes probably a decade or two to jump more than 371 00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:59.440 twice. So I'm I maybe I just haven't been in the market long enough 372 00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:02.359 myself, Um, to actually watch it happen. So I'm like, I 373 00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:06.039 don't know if adobes how many times adobes had to reinvent themselves, because they've 374 00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:11.799 been around at least thirty, forty years now. So I'm trying to think 375 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.759 some larger companies that have been around a long time and had to reinvent themselves 376 00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:18.160 multiple times. But even category design as a as a thing hasn't been around 377 00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:25.920 for more than thirty years exactly. So we're early position in the late seventies 378 00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:29.359 right. So it's like it can't it hasn't been that long. Yeah, 379 00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:34.400 yeah, I mean I just think you see examples of companies that do reinvent 380 00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:44.200 themselves long term. We're definitely having trouble breaking through a single escort in a 381 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:49.480 sense, like we haven't really done that yet. We this goes for countries 382 00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:53.839 as well, or empires. We always ride one s curve and we never 383 00:28:55.400 --> 00:29:00.000 we never break our own business. Someone else always breaks us because we think 384 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:06.000 number one. There's definitely been companies that go through reinvention multiple times. Dave 385 00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:08.960 Ramsey is a good example because he's had big he's had big launches and then 386 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:12.400 dips and then reinventions and then dips. I think he's gone through about three 387 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:15.640 now. Maybe he's probably four or five, because he's he's they've been around 388 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:18.960 longer than what most people think. Remember he went really big in the late 389 00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:22.960 two thousand's, around the recession, right. But I don't think he's gotten 390 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:27.799 through like a whole category reinvention. He's kind of been this is a different 391 00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:33.759 so he's a different conversation. YEA creating different categories, though, is hard, 392 00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:37.880 like creating. Creating one successful category and writing that is difficult enough. 393 00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:42.519 Doing me twice is like, man, that's now you're really like, as 394 00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:45.839 if it wasn't a Unicorn enough, now you're a double Unicorn. To be 395 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:52.720 a triple Unicorn. That's going for that. He wants to design GTM. 396 00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:56.240 Right, you don't have to create it, you just have to design it 397 00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:00.440 and have a better have the best narrative around it. But hubspot, you 398 00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:06.119 know, let's just look at hubspot. They started with inbound marketing. Is 399 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:12.240 the category. They have this flywheel that was inbound marketing, right. So 400 00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:18.559 they had a narrative around inbound marketing about how the world had changed and how 401 00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:22.920 outbound was not going to produce a good results for you the way the inbound 402 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:32.960 was. Right. Then, over time they basically layered on complementary services until 403 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.079 they until it merited a new category. Right, category are they in now? 404 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:41.160 I'm like looking at their website and I'm like, yeah, is the 405 00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:45.119 number one, the number one for scaling, for scaling companies, is their 406 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.480 tagline. The number one CRM for scaling companies. So they are trying to 407 00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:52.079 be number one. CRN Is the category that they've gone into. So they 408 00:30:52.079 --> 00:31:00.759 went from inbound marketing software to CRM and crm with kind of a REV OPS 409 00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:08.880 GTM narrative behind it. Right. So yeah, it's it's very interesting to 410 00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:15.400 me. which which is the second level category that these companies end up going 411 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.960 towards? Off of their initial category, which was more of like based around 412 00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:26.519 that problem product fit in the marketplace. But as they expand to the platform, 413 00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.119 this is one of the new category to call this thing, this platform 414 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:34.960 emerges right. So the number the number one crm for scaling companies. Okay, 415 00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:38.559 they're trying to differentiate from all the other crms by saying for scaling. 416 00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:42.240 Um, I don't know how much I agree with that. They're pretty big. 417 00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:45.480 I mean we use them and I've looked at a lot of crm so 418 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.039 I'm like, yeah, I'd agree with that that they'd be the number one 419 00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:51.319 for that level. They're definitely not in the small business category and they get 420 00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:55.319 destroyed by salesforce and the enterprise. So I'd say they probably do hold the 421 00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:57.720 number one position, as far as it's in my mind and I think in 422 00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:00.240 other people's minds. No, I think that's true. I think they are 423 00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:04.599 definitely number one. Definitely number one, but it is interest. Question came 424 00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:08.799 back from inbound marketing because obviously they crms became so helpful and just marketing and 425 00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:13.599 sales the whole company pivoted around it, which is why they've added customer success 426 00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:17.680 and all that kind of stuff. To it. It's become the central source 427 00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:22.920 of truth, we call it, at sweet fish, for information related to 428 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:27.079 all things in your business. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. So I think 429 00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:32.200 there's an interesting Um game playing out in that, in that market sale that 430 00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:37.880 you can see how it started. salesforce started as the sales software, not 431 00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:42.480 the marketing inbound, so right, and you kind of see how those things 432 00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:49.480 evolved into platforms and you see how they label that afterwards or how how the 433 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:52.119 how the, how they communicate that to the marketplace. Um. So, 434 00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:57.839 yeah, I think looking looking at different companies and that trajectory and how they 435 00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:02.039 did that, good and bad, is super useful and, you know, 436 00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:08.559 I would just I don't think hubspot. I think that they should move heavily 437 00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:14.799 into that community building phase. Now, this is the way I'm thinking about 438 00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:16.440 it. Um, I think that they did a great job with Narrative and 439 00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:25.000 category and now they you know, they acquired this Um publication community. Yeah, 440 00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:30.240 but I believe, I believe that this is sort of the problem with 441 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:32.000 trying to be number one, as you end up wanting to acquire the community 442 00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:37.039 instead of building, because building it requires you to have humility as and like 443 00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:40.400 no, we're all doing this together. It's our narrative, it's not my 444 00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:44.920 narrative. So whenever you see someone put number one next to their name, 445 00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:50.839 you can they probably won't go all the way with the community stuff. I 446 00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:54.000 I have my doubts. You know interesting inside. If you have to say 447 00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:58.240 your number one, then community might be a struggle. I'll have to pay 448 00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:00.880 attention to that and see if I find it to be true. It kind 449 00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:04.839 of makes sense as I've been doing a lot of research into thought leadership. 450 00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:07.920 We all know the number rule, number one rule of thought leadership, as 451 00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:12.400 you can't call yourself that. If you do, you're not. The idea 452 00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:16.320 of companies calling themselves number one is the exact same concept. Or personal branding. 453 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:21.679 People calling themselves number one at something right. Just design the category, 454 00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:24.400 build a community and let people call you that if they want. Man, 455 00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:30.360 that's powerful. It's been a fantastic talk. If there's anything I didn't ask 456 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:34.559 but I should have asked, what would that be and what is what are 457 00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:37.440 some like final thoughts for the audiences? They're considering and wrestling. I'm sure 458 00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:40.000 they're wrestling with it as much as we are at sweet fish around narrative, 459 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:45.400 category and community. Any parting thoughts? Yeah, I would just say that 460 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:50.719 there are activities that you can do where you are doing all three of these 461 00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:53.119 phases. You're working on all three of them at the same time. So 462 00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:58.559 podcasting, do you understand where I'm going with this? There are things you 463 00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:01.519 can do where you get insights in all three areas and you can advance in 464 00:35:01.559 --> 00:35:07.639 all three areas simultaneously. So there are individual activities for each of these things, 465 00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:13.800 but try to identify the core activities that that that nurture the garden in 466 00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:17.239 each of these areas and aren't just kind of siloed into one right. I 467 00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:22.800 think that's how you can build momentum over time. That is interesting. I 468 00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:25.320 am trying to I am wrestling with all three at the same time and it's 469 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:30.119 like tweaks. It's just subtle tweaks to the narrative while you're trying to frame 470 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:31.400 the category, and sometimes you're like, Oh, I think we got the 471 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:35.159 right framing on the category, you're like, oh, but that doesn't that 472 00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:37.719 doesn't fit the narrative we wrote last week. Crap, now I have to 473 00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:39.800 rewrite it because now the two don't fit. In the meantime, you are 474 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:45.559 continuing to move forward and build community around this thing and you're usually including parts 475 00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:47.760 of the community in the conversation as you're testing it out with them, right. 476 00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:52.280 So it is it's collaborative process and sin. I mean my hope is 477 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.920 that we finally get it all three to be right and then Bam, it 478 00:35:54.960 --> 00:36:00.360 clicks and it's beens it creates momentum. Yeah, yeah, I think. 479 00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:04.360 I think that that if, if, if companies sort of come at it 480 00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:10.159 from this angle, I think that will have a healthier business environment, uh, 481 00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:15.760 in the long term, and I think people will be happier with their 482 00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.320 work in the long term, because this is really about, you know, 483 00:36:19.639 --> 00:36:25.679 purpose and unity, making money through purpose and unity as opposed to competition. 484 00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:30.719 Right. So, yeah, that's kind of the philosophy of that wheel. 485 00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:35.840 It's interesting. Would you recommend people invite their competitors to be part of the 486 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:42.519 conversation or customers? Well, if you here's the thing. If you've evolved 487 00:36:42.519 --> 00:36:47.360 the narrative enough, then you don't really have competitors in your mind. So 488 00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:52.840 if you haven't evolved the narrative enough, like, you need you need to 489 00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:57.760 get people who already believe in the thing you do. So if these are 490 00:36:57.800 --> 00:37:01.039 old competitors, previous competitor is. They no longer are because you've you've evolved. 491 00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:05.960 Then, you know, I don't know, trying to get them on 492 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.159 board with the thing. It might be difficult, but if you move into 493 00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:13.719 another area and you just find players who believe in the same thing and execute 494 00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:16.960 on that, you should invite all of those people. You should share the 495 00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:20.719 category with them. You should share the category with them and say no, 496 00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:23.840 this is not our category, my category, this is ours. Let's move 497 00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:30.039 this baby right and let's get some momentum here and grow this market. That 498 00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:32.360 is the type of collaboration that that that that moves things. You know, 499 00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:37.440 it's part of the narrative. Even thinking about sweet fish as narrative, like 500 00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:40.519 the way we approach B twob podcasting is just different than all our competitors and 501 00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:46.239 so just by naturally me thinking about that, it actually excludes because don't think 502 00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:51.000 the way we think and don't we don't even have the same narrative like the 503 00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:53.519 way they approach podcasting. So but there are a few that I'm like, 504 00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:58.559 actually, there's probably like two that I'm like, I'd invite them in and 505 00:37:58.599 --> 00:38:00.519 honestly, there's enough market shared go around for all of us. So that 506 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:05.320 makes sense because you guys are gonna evolve the narrative anyways later on and split 507 00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:08.599 in different directions, like like, like Song Grahaman and this other company. 508 00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:13.400 Right. So this is the idea of that, that initial category creation. 509 00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:19.000 We want to collaborate because we're moving something massive and inertia is strong. To 510 00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:22.199 get this bad boy going, we need collaboration and unity here to get it 511 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:27.079 going fast, and fast enough, right, or else it'll just take forever. 512 00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:30.039 So yeah, yeah, man, I I think that the moral of 513 00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:34.079 the story on that, which is great, because that's an underlying thing. 514 00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:37.239 I'M gonna have to flush out a bunch of documents, a bunch of decks 515 00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:42.760 on this, on this cycle, but these are like the underlying truths that 516 00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:46.119 the model. You don't see necessarily on the surface on the model, but 517 00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:50.159 if you talk about it and dig into it, you start to realize these 518 00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:52.639 types of things. Ma'am, I think you need to keep working on this, 519 00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:57.079 flushing it out. Yeah, honestly, be a really fun book to 520 00:38:57.079 --> 00:39:00.280 read. Now, would read it or listen to it at least so as 521 00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:04.639 you continue keep me up to date. And Uh, if you have another 522 00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:07.239 breakthrough revelation about this work and we'll have you back on the show. Will 523 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:09.159 be a lot of fun. I know this has been insightful for me and 524 00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:24.880 I know will be inscightful for the BDB growth audience. B Two B growth 525 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:28.760 is brought to you by the team at sweet fish media. Here at sweet 526 00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:31.639 fish we produce podcasts for some of the most innovative brands in the world and 527 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:37.599 we help them turn those podcasts into micro videos linkedin content, blog posts and 528 00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:40.199 more. We're on a mission to produce every leader's favorite show. Want more 529 00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:51.199 information? Visit Sweet Fish Media Dot Com.