Using Thought Leadership to Change the World

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740 Yeah, 2 00:00:05.540 --> 00:00:09.720 welcome back to PDB Growth. I'm dan Sanchez with Sweet fish Media and today 3 00:00:09.730 --> 00:00:13.720 I'm here with Grant Butler, who is the director and founder of the editor 4 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:18.760 group as well as the author of think, Right grow. Grant, welcome to the show. 5 00:00:19.140 --> 00:00:24.030 Thank you dan. Thank you for the invitation. It's always a pleasure to 6 00:00:24.040 --> 00:00:26.950 speak with authors, especially after I've been able to have the chance to 7 00:00:26.950 --> 00:00:31.640 read one of their books and I did have the chance to read grants book on 8 00:00:31.650 --> 00:00:35.010 thought leadership. And as part of this series we're doing on thought 9 00:00:35.010 --> 00:00:38.250 leadership. I love to be able to talk to people who have spent a lot of time 10 00:00:38.250 --> 00:00:42.800 thinking and wrestling and working with the subject matter themselves and even 11 00:00:42.800 --> 00:00:45.780 better if they've actually written a book on the topic because they've had 12 00:00:45.780 --> 00:00:50.560 to think and wrestle with it just that much more. And Grant wrote a wonderful 13 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:54.530 book. In fact, it's probably one of the most concise and well written books on 14 00:00:54.530 --> 00:01:00.220 thought leadership that I've read so far, of course with being um founder of 15 00:01:00.220 --> 00:01:04.410 a company called The Editor Group, you can kind of tell what I like. He's a 16 00:01:04.410 --> 00:01:09.130 writer, a very wonderful writer. So Grant I wanted to kick off our 17 00:01:09.140 --> 00:01:13.220 interview with just your thoughts on how you define thought leadership. 18 00:01:13.220 --> 00:01:16.200 There's a lot of different definitions out there. There's a lot of people that 19 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:19.580 would even say that thought leadership kind of cringe. E it's a buzz word, 20 00:01:19.580 --> 00:01:25.780 it's it's a passing fad. So how do you define thought leadership? And would 21 00:01:25.780 --> 00:01:29.300 you say it's more than just a passing fad? Or is it something that has more 22 00:01:29.300 --> 00:01:34.550 of a staying power? Well, thank you for the comment on the book to start with 23 00:01:34.550 --> 00:01:39.130 it. Um it's actually if you're trying to write a book about writing, you 24 00:01:39.130 --> 00:01:42.480 become acutely aware of the writing. So it took a lot longer than I thought it 25 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:46.690 might thought leadership. I definitely don't think it's a fad. I think if you 26 00:01:46.690 --> 00:01:51.490 look at professional services and technology, they have always sold using 27 00:01:51.490 --> 00:01:55.920 thought leadership. I think where it's got a lot more interest in the last few 28 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:59.490 years has been around content marketing and things like this. Tickles and 29 00:01:59.490 --> 00:02:03.850 advice articles and so forth, picking up on a lot of what law firms, 30 00:02:03.850 --> 00:02:08.080 engineering firms and big tech companies and finance groups have known 31 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:13.160 for a long time. But in terms of a definition, uh it was originally used 32 00:02:13.170 --> 00:02:16.600 by a guy called Joel Kurtzman to describe the big management thinkers 33 00:02:16.600 --> 00:02:20.870 like Charles, handy and paul paul Romer and so forth. And he was just looking 34 00:02:20.870 --> 00:02:25.630 for a term that was kind of combined the idea of people who think and then 35 00:02:25.630 --> 00:02:31.960 also offer those ideas out to others in a way that has a leadership dimension. 36 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:35.530 But in terms of the book and the definition I use, it's really about 37 00:02:35.530 --> 00:02:40.110 offering ideas that helps solve somebody else's problem or point out an 38 00:02:40.110 --> 00:02:43.430 opportunity. And when you look at it that way, it's not that far away from 39 00:02:43.430 --> 00:02:47.480 journalism, journalism, you know, pretty much every article pointing out 40 00:02:47.480 --> 00:02:52.820 a threat or an opportunity. Uh Thought leadership is much the same. So what 41 00:02:52.820 --> 00:02:56.190 separates thought leadership from journalism then, is that that it's more 42 00:02:56.190 --> 00:03:00.750 focused on a specific market, doesn't have a business interest behind it. 43 00:03:01.340 --> 00:03:05.960 You're typically looking to change the world in some way or ask or with, you 44 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:10.360 know, the recipient, the reader to make a change. Journalism reports on the 45 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:14.170 past, right? It's news, It's something that's happened. Thought leadership 46 00:03:14.170 --> 00:03:19.140 should be forward looking. Uh So their recommendations for things for other 47 00:03:19.140 --> 00:03:23.210 people to do, that's kind of a unique definition of thought leadership. And 48 00:03:23.210 --> 00:03:26.950 it really opens up the whole gamut there. And I'm trying to think through 49 00:03:26.950 --> 00:03:30.700 the implications of that. If journalism is reporting on the past and thought 50 00:03:30.700 --> 00:03:34.440 leadership is essentially it's not reporting on the future because that 51 00:03:34.440 --> 00:03:38.650 would be like prophecy, right? But it's essentially trying to write the future 52 00:03:39.340 --> 00:03:44.220 and persuade people love of a specific future that it has, it goes way beyond 53 00:03:44.230 --> 00:03:48.200 business. It's starting to come into the realm of like, I don't know, it 54 00:03:48.210 --> 00:03:52.850 kind of reminds me of like ted talks, right ideas on the future we're sharing. 55 00:03:52.860 --> 00:03:57.800 So I guess all all TX talks would essentially be thought leadership. Yeah. 56 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:00.570 I mean if you think about the leadership as a genre, you've got ted 57 00:04:00.570 --> 00:04:04.800 talks, you've got books, you've got political articles, all the big 58 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:09.400 columnists and so forth. And if you think about something like Covid or 59 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:14.740 climate change, you're seeing a lot of this discussion at the moment. I 60 00:04:14.740 --> 00:04:18.850 thought one good example we could talk about is thomas prio the guy who wrote 61 00:04:18.850 --> 00:04:24.050 The Hammer and The Dance and put it up on medium. So you had all these global 62 00:04:24.050 --> 00:04:28.800 medical experts talking about Covid and so forth. But he did a wonderful thing, 63 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:33.290 which was published a lot of data in a very digestible way using fantastic 64 00:04:33.290 --> 00:04:39.820 diagrams and so forth, and then offer a kind of a path forward. So he, on the 65 00:04:39.820 --> 00:04:43.040 one hand looks backwards and he describes something and that's a bit 66 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:46.450 like news. But then he says, well, you know, if we understand all of that, 67 00:04:46.640 --> 00:04:51.050 What's the strategy going forwards and any offers this the hammer, the hammer 68 00:04:51.050 --> 00:04:54.620 down on COVID and then the dance where you learn to live with it. Uh and that 69 00:04:54.620 --> 00:04:59.150 metaphor, you know, has probably had more impact from one guy who's just 70 00:04:59.150 --> 00:05:04.840 doing business development for online learning platform uh, than the World 71 00:05:04.840 --> 00:05:08.270 Health Organization and all these other groups. I mean it's been downloaded 72 00:05:08.280 --> 00:05:13.950 north millions of times translated into 37 languages and so forth. So it's that 73 00:05:13.950 --> 00:05:18.780 sort of idea to well educated guessing. So you had a unique idea. He put it out 74 00:05:18.780 --> 00:05:23.470 into the world and influenced millions of people through the written piece. 75 00:05:23.940 --> 00:05:27.630 I'm sure there was a number of people that were critiquing it or or taking an 76 00:05:27.630 --> 00:05:31.660 opposite stance from it. But still he had an idea and a view of the world and 77 00:05:31.670 --> 00:05:37.700 published it for published it to the kind of change uh how people are 78 00:05:37.700 --> 00:05:41.490 viewing Covid. Yeah. And I'm sure we'll get into talking about how 79 00:05:41.490 --> 00:05:45.600 organizations do this. But there was two other important ingredients or 80 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:50.560 three really. One, he was brave enough to go out there too, he was articulate, 81 00:05:50.570 --> 00:05:57.010 but three that business he was working for, let him gave him permission to 82 00:05:57.010 --> 00:06:01.380 just publish something enormous on a topic that had nothing to do with them. 83 00:06:01.390 --> 00:06:07.990 But that's kind of that oblique nature of a lot of these, you know, uh 84 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:12.410 effective Felicia campaigns is actually really key part of it. Get out there, 85 00:06:12.410 --> 00:06:15.500 say something interesting and then gradually bring the conversation back 86 00:06:15.500 --> 00:06:20.000 to something you're actually selling. So which leads me to ask like, can 87 00:06:20.010 --> 00:06:25.010 anybody become a thought later, anybody in a company, anybody on their own? Can 88 00:06:25.010 --> 00:06:31.520 anybody submit that leadership ideas and do so with I don't know, can 89 00:06:31.520 --> 00:06:37.660 anybody do it? Well, yeah, I think the question here is where you set the bar 90 00:06:37.670 --> 00:06:43.220 and so sure you've got these global thinkers, you know, your Nouriel 91 00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:48.480 Roubini knees and so forth, and your gates and Elon musk and so on. So Tony 92 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:52.690 Robbins, right? You think there's this level of mega thought leader, they're a 93 00:06:52.690 --> 00:06:56.760 pretty unique package, you know, their charismatic, they're articulate, 94 00:06:56.760 --> 00:07:00.690 they're smart, they're well informed, you know, they've got a platform, but a 95 00:07:00.690 --> 00:07:04.390 lot of what we're talking about and B two B, you know, it's just about 96 00:07:04.400 --> 00:07:09.110 offering decent advice that demonstrates their expertise to your 97 00:07:09.110 --> 00:07:13.680 customers and lots of people can do that. And I guess the other thing is 98 00:07:13.690 --> 00:07:18.010 you have individual rock stars, these big thought leaders or even in a small 99 00:07:18.010 --> 00:07:22.740 organization and individual that's really a good thinker and speaker and 100 00:07:22.740 --> 00:07:26.140 so forth. But you also have organizations that publish thought 101 00:07:26.140 --> 00:07:31.100 leadership, so you can do this in teams, you know, you can do it at a small 102 00:07:31.100 --> 00:07:35.710 level. One of my favorite example is I was looking at whether to put in a 103 00:07:35.710 --> 00:07:39.900 fiberglass swimming pool or a concrete swimming pool and if you go on and 104 00:07:39.900 --> 00:07:44.850 google fiber glass versus concrete, the top hits and the content marketers will 105 00:07:44.850 --> 00:07:48.090 notice, but the top hits come up for the people that are published. The best 106 00:07:48.090 --> 00:07:52.500 advice about whether you put in a fiberglass, Circumpolar, Capri one and 107 00:07:52.510 --> 00:07:56.980 it is not fantastic writing, but the number one ranking story is, you know, 108 00:07:56.980 --> 00:08:01.550 some small business in Missouri kind of thing with a really awesome explanation 109 00:08:01.550 --> 00:08:08.320 of this debate. So yeah, so anyone can do it and you know, people might do it 110 00:08:08.320 --> 00:08:11.990 at different levels, but if you're a small law firm you just want to win a 111 00:08:11.990 --> 00:08:15.580 few clients, you can put some basic thought leadership out there and it's 112 00:08:15.580 --> 00:08:19.720 gonna probably do more than not putting something out there. So it's 113 00:08:19.720 --> 00:08:22.340 interesting would you consider all content marketing to be thought 114 00:08:22.340 --> 00:08:26.580 leadership? Where do you draw the line there? Well, yeah, this is where you 115 00:08:26.580 --> 00:08:32.760 start to get into the intellectual snobbery. So really and I'm conscious 116 00:08:32.760 --> 00:08:38.679 this podcast is better be. So there's a lot of stuff getting turned out under 117 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:44.570 the content marketing label that isn't really All that credible, isn't really 118 00:08:44.580 --> 00:08:49.430 terribly well researched uh and so on. So it might get somebody to buy a 119 00:08:49.430 --> 00:08:53.600 swimming pool, but it probably won't get them to put in a $50 million it 120 00:08:53.610 --> 00:09:00.330 system or switch their entire back end of their banking system to some new 121 00:09:00.330 --> 00:09:05.310 platform that they're going to stick with for 20 years. So I think the ideas 122 00:09:05.310 --> 00:09:09.910 are right, but a lot of the execution is pretty vague, pretty high p and 123 00:09:09.910 --> 00:09:13.810 wouldn't really cut it in the serious and to be to be. And because an agency 124 00:09:13.810 --> 00:09:18.580 that's where we tend to play, we tend to do 50 page research backed reports 125 00:09:18.590 --> 00:09:24.400 for before consulting firms, top tech firms, these sort of guys. So but it's 126 00:09:24.400 --> 00:09:29.400 all it's all in the genre. The main thing isn't advocating an idea, is 127 00:09:29.410 --> 00:09:34.530 offering somebody a solution to a problem. And is it soft sell? I mean 128 00:09:34.530 --> 00:09:37.060 that's the other big thing about for Leadership. It shouldn't be explicitly 129 00:09:37.060 --> 00:09:40.250 selling something because that's just marketing and that's, you know, 130 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:44.800 brochures websites for that material, which is fine as well, but it's not 131 00:09:44.810 --> 00:09:50.060 what we might call for Leadership Market. Sure. Put a hypothetical and 132 00:09:50.060 --> 00:09:54.310 see if we can still call Thought leadership as a marketer for a Bdb 133 00:09:54.310 --> 00:09:59.330 podcasting agency. I could write a blog post about microphones, I think that's 134 00:09:59.330 --> 00:10:03.180 probably a little bit too broad for us, but I've had enough customers ask about 135 00:10:03.180 --> 00:10:06.300 what microphone they should use enough times that I'm like, I could probably, 136 00:10:06.310 --> 00:10:11.490 you know, by four or five mics. Popular mix kind of do a review of them, audit 137 00:10:11.490 --> 00:10:14.730 them. Maybe not a super in depth analysis. But then published a blog 138 00:10:14.730 --> 00:10:17.710 post about my thoughts, my top recommendation and like you have more 139 00:10:17.710 --> 00:10:21.290 budget by this one, but otherwise this one works well. That would still be a 140 00:10:21.290 --> 00:10:24.970 good piece of content. It's useful for customers. I might even be able to 141 00:10:24.970 --> 00:10:28.550 write it well enough that it gets ranked on google. Would that still be 142 00:10:28.550 --> 00:10:32.910 thought leadership content? So the thought leadership, if you put an 143 00:10:32.910 --> 00:10:36.560 opinion behind it, uh you look at all those microphones and then you've 144 00:10:36.560 --> 00:10:43.100 offered somebody your view of the best one. And whereas if you just wrote a 145 00:10:43.100 --> 00:10:47.180 dry piece about five microphones and their features, then it would sort of 146 00:10:47.180 --> 00:10:52.750 be used. You say that that's kind of the line. But it's a perfect example, 147 00:10:52.760 --> 00:10:57.810 you know, and it's a good all this the leadership so starts conversations, it 148 00:10:57.810 --> 00:11:02.190 captures attention by publishing on something that people care about. And 149 00:11:02.190 --> 00:11:06.090 then, you know, it gets them into your funnel, you might say, you know, and 150 00:11:06.090 --> 00:11:09.100 then you can sort of segue way across to well why are you looking for a 151 00:11:09.100 --> 00:11:14.640 microphone? You know, you want to do a podcast, we might go to help you. So 152 00:11:14.640 --> 00:11:18.660 it's for me, are you hearing you say it's it's bringing a point of view 153 00:11:19.040 --> 00:11:25.010 that's unique to you. Um and as well researched and well informed is thought 154 00:11:25.010 --> 00:11:28.760 leadership marketing essentially. Uh it's the leadership you can use in 155 00:11:28.760 --> 00:11:33.210 marketing. Yeah, like there's two concepts there, but a lot of what we 156 00:11:33.210 --> 00:11:38.440 write call points of view and a lot of detention inside organizations is 157 00:11:38.450 --> 00:11:42.710 there's a lot of experts, but not everyone wants to have a point of view, 158 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:47.280 you know? And so because, like, say lawyers, they will be have a high level 159 00:11:47.280 --> 00:11:52.170 of expertise about a topic, but they won't tend to want to state a position 160 00:11:52.170 --> 00:11:54.570 that I sort of want to say. Well on the one hand, this and on the other hand, 161 00:11:54.570 --> 00:11:58.980 that and you know, whereas the thought leaders need to be a bit braver and 162 00:11:58.980 --> 00:12:04.210 pick a line like, you know, think about ai at the moment ai and ethics, you 163 00:12:04.210 --> 00:12:10.020 know, is it solvable or is it inherently problematic? You know, And 164 00:12:10.030 --> 00:12:13.740 if I'm a thought leader out there on that topic, I've sort of got a positive 165 00:12:13.740 --> 00:12:19.570 or negative on it. Hey, everybody Logan with sweet fish here. If you've been 166 00:12:19.570 --> 00:12:23.070 listening to the show for a while, you know, we're big proponents of putting 167 00:12:23.070 --> 00:12:27.350 out original organic content on linkedin. But one thing that's always 168 00:12:27.350 --> 00:12:31.340 been a struggle for a team like ours is to easily track the reach of that 169 00:12:31.340 --> 00:12:34.640 linkedin content. That's why I was really excited when I heard about 170 00:12:34.640 --> 00:12:39.150 Shield the other day from a connection on you guessed it linked in since our 171 00:12:39.150 --> 00:12:43.410 team started using Shield, I've loved how it's led us easily track and 172 00:12:43.410 --> 00:12:48.000 analyze the performance of Arlington content without having to manually log 173 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:52.290 it ourselves. It automatically creates reports and generate some dashboards 174 00:12:52.290 --> 00:12:55.740 that are incredibly useful to see things like what contents been 175 00:12:55.740 --> 00:12:58.690 performing the best and what days of the week are we getting the most 176 00:12:58.690 --> 00:13:03.520 engagement and our average views per post. I highly suggest you guys check 177 00:13:03.520 --> 00:13:07.140 out this tool. If you're putting out content on linked in and if you're not, 178 00:13:07.150 --> 00:13:12.470 you should be. It's been a game changer for us. If you go to shield app dot Ai 179 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:16.970 and check out the 10 day free trial, you can even use our promo code B two B 180 00:13:16.970 --> 00:13:23.090 growth to get a 25% discount again, that's shield app dot Ai. And that 181 00:13:23.090 --> 00:13:28.310 promo code is B. The number to be growth. All one word. All right, let's 182 00:13:28.310 --> 00:13:36.360 get back to the show. I have heard David baker say that good, that leaders 183 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:41.900 often bifurcating like they're going to go and pick a position on any number of 184 00:13:41.900 --> 00:13:46.600 topics are the topics that they're an expert in. So it certainly lines up 185 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.800 with what I've heard others say about that before. What are some of the 186 00:13:49.800 --> 00:13:52.920 qualities that you think good thought leaders have? Like if somebody were 187 00:13:52.920 --> 00:13:56.210 aspiring to be a thought leader that they could kind of check themselves 188 00:13:56.210 --> 00:14:00.280 against or to become better at becoming a thought leader, what are those 189 00:14:00.280 --> 00:14:03.740 qualities that you think are most important? Yeah, I think I think for 190 00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:07.170 the individual, I think the first big one is just being wrapped up in the 191 00:14:07.170 --> 00:14:11.620 debate. You know, that you're interested that there's a topic you've 192 00:14:11.620 --> 00:14:15.720 got expertise on and that you're engaged with. So you are reading 193 00:14:15.730 --> 00:14:18.460 articles on it, you're going to conferences, you're listening to 194 00:14:18.460 --> 00:14:23.710 podcasts. So I think, you know, start with the idea is is there even a topic 195 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:28.230 you would regard yourself as having an above average understanding of and an 196 00:14:28.230 --> 00:14:33.160 ability to move forward as a field? And so that's that's both interest in 197 00:14:33.170 --> 00:14:38.870 knowledge, but it's also passion, you know, uh before the topic. Uh and then 198 00:14:38.880 --> 00:14:42.760 I think the other side of it is this communication part, you know, are you 199 00:14:42.770 --> 00:14:46.490 somebody who's happy to get out there and communicating on the topic? And you 200 00:14:46.490 --> 00:14:50.450 know, can you write well, can you speak well? Uh, you know, or is there another 201 00:14:50.450 --> 00:14:53.510 forum? I mean, some people are just fantastic researchers, they put a lot 202 00:14:53.510 --> 00:14:56.740 of good material together and then other people, you know, kind of polish 203 00:14:56.740 --> 00:15:00.930 that up and take it out, but I think those are the sort of starting points, 204 00:15:00.930 --> 00:15:05.430 but um, and then in the book is, you know, you've noted there's these other 205 00:15:05.430 --> 00:15:08.930 characteristics, I mean, so some thought leaders will be a bit like your 206 00:15:08.930 --> 00:15:12.860 academic, you know, a bit like the university figure, you know, solitary, 207 00:15:12.940 --> 00:15:19.790 often a bit difficult, opinionated and so on. You don't, you don't sort of 208 00:15:19.790 --> 00:15:24.140 have to be, but it helps if you think about Malcolm Gladwell, you know, he's 209 00:15:24.140 --> 00:15:28.640 not selling anything of it in his books and talking most of the time, but 210 00:15:28.650 --> 00:15:31.870 here's a good example of a thought leader, You know, you don't think of 211 00:15:31.870 --> 00:15:35.760 Malcolm Gladwell and band right? And team. It's just Malcolm Gladwell and 212 00:15:35.760 --> 00:15:40.010 he's got these ideas he researches and he's most most in the debate and 213 00:15:40.010 --> 00:15:44.150 communication well. And he offers advice, right? You know what we call 214 00:15:44.160 --> 00:15:49.740 kind of actionable insights. But yeah, I think those are a lot of things. I'll 215 00:15:49.740 --> 00:15:53.260 let you ask another question necessarily. I guess it would depend 216 00:15:53.260 --> 00:15:57.270 highly on like what your market is right on what the good qualities would 217 00:15:57.270 --> 00:16:00.720 be. As you were talking, I was like, man, if it if you were in the academia 218 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:04.760 world then your credentials are probably gonna matter. But if you're in 219 00:16:04.760 --> 00:16:07.900 the business world they care a little bit less about credentials. And 220 00:16:07.900 --> 00:16:12.270 probably at least I've pulled my small following on linkedin and they've told 221 00:16:12.270 --> 00:16:16.340 me that experience probably matters more than anything. So I guess the 222 00:16:16.340 --> 00:16:19.260 qualities might shift around from time to time as you're working with 223 00:16:19.260 --> 00:16:24.520 customers and clients. Uh, do you find you might size up the quality is 224 00:16:24.520 --> 00:16:28.240 differently depending on what industry they're in? Yeah. And also what are 225 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:33.440 they looking to comment on? So if you've got somebody who's, uh, I read a 226 00:16:33.450 --> 00:16:38.410 fantastic piece about by a family lawyer about the impact of Covid on 227 00:16:38.420 --> 00:16:42.620 families and the legal implications. You know, you can picture people can't 228 00:16:42.620 --> 00:16:47.330 swap the kids every week because the Covid and so on and so a family lawyer 229 00:16:47.330 --> 00:16:51.240 can do a, they can be a really low key person. Just published a really nice 230 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:56.310 little blog about the issues and some solutions and so forth. So the bar is 231 00:16:56.310 --> 00:17:00.510 not super high there and they just need credibility in that area. At the other 232 00:17:00.510 --> 00:17:05.180 end of the spectrum, you get your Elon musk sort of figures and they they've 233 00:17:05.190 --> 00:17:09.589 got enormous credibility in one field, like electric cars, uh battery 234 00:17:09.589 --> 00:17:14.579 technology and so on. But now he's off being a crypto thought leader or a 235 00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:22.960 disaster depending how you, but people are only listening to him on crypto 236 00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:29.950 because of his credibility from Paypal and from Tesla. Okay. So he kind of 237 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:33.290 Bill Gates is the same, right? Bill Gates is out there talking on climate 238 00:17:33.290 --> 00:17:39.320 change, but his credibility comes from I. T. And business success. So if you 239 00:17:39.320 --> 00:17:44.440 think about that you is a nice analogy in the book, but it talks about this 240 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:48.330 kind of tea concept that the deeper your credibility in one field and it 241 00:17:48.330 --> 00:17:51.400 almost doesn't really matter what it is. The further the world will let you 242 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:55.630 extend out along the branches of the T. Um, and listen to you and all sorts of 243 00:17:55.630 --> 00:17:59.530 other topics. A bit like the Kardashians offering advice on fashion, 244 00:17:59.530 --> 00:18:03.110 right? You know, it's sort of, you start somewhere when you extend out and 245 00:18:03.110 --> 00:18:07.350 the bigger that core credibility of the further you can extend out, there's 246 00:18:07.350 --> 00:18:10.830 certainly an impact of celebrity, right? If you're a celebrity of any kind with 247 00:18:10.830 --> 00:18:16.600 no expertise, like, like Shaquille O'neal could just say by these shoes, 248 00:18:16.610 --> 00:18:19.610 um, and maybe he's an expert in basketball, but if he sees drink, drink 249 00:18:19.610 --> 00:18:23.060 sprite or whatever, people are just going to go to it because they're a fan. 250 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:27.630 Actually, no, Shaquille O'neal has been working hard on his owns lots of 251 00:18:27.630 --> 00:18:31.560 businesses, but he's not really known as a business thinkers still. And I 252 00:18:31.560 --> 00:18:34.890 think there's something to be said for people who have expertise and lots of 253 00:18:34.890 --> 00:18:39.370 fields, right? Like Ellen started with Paypal. So he got his, like Silicon 254 00:18:39.370 --> 00:18:43.570 Valley chip on his shoulder because he had to exit, right? But then started 255 00:18:43.580 --> 00:18:48.790 electric cars and then did one of the most successful consumer run space 256 00:18:48.790 --> 00:18:52.410 companies, right? And in the boring company and he just kept adding these 257 00:18:52.420 --> 00:18:56.720 really daring endeavors and they somehow were all successful, which is 258 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:02.180 highly, highly was unlikely, right? I guess that's why they kind of listen to 259 00:19:02.180 --> 00:19:06.850 him on all these other subjects too. Yeah. But in terms of celebrity and 260 00:19:06.860 --> 00:19:11.140 businesses, I mean this is the kind of the running joke where actors are 261 00:19:11.140 --> 00:19:15.820 always solving world peace, right? You know, because they've Angeline Jolie or 262 00:19:15.820 --> 00:19:19.800 whatever, you know, uh they're out there but but businesses can leverage 263 00:19:19.800 --> 00:19:24.060 that celebrity unload those people up with their ideas. So you see that a lot 264 00:19:24.540 --> 00:19:29.000 so big business might have an idea about transforming to net zero and so 265 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:34.420 forth and but they need a matt Damon or someone George Clooney or whatever to 266 00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:39.070 come and deliver that for them. So you kind of as a marketer, you sort of look 267 00:19:39.070 --> 00:19:43.120 at the idea and then you look at the channels and then you look at the 268 00:19:43.130 --> 00:19:47.590 presenter and in some cases you can find that internally, and in other 269 00:19:47.590 --> 00:19:50.620 cases you can develop the idea internally, but you kind of need 270 00:19:50.630 --> 00:19:54.750 somebody else to take it out and you're going to leverage their celebrity to uh 271 00:19:54.760 --> 00:19:58.760 to do that. So when we were working with customers and let's say it's a B2B 272 00:19:58.760 --> 00:20:02.340 company and they have like an internal subject matter expert, maybe multiple 273 00:20:02.340 --> 00:20:06.190 subject matter experts. And they want to start walking down the path of 274 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:11.080 helping the subject matter experts to develop thought leadership uh maybe 275 00:20:11.080 --> 00:20:16.890 even become in some ways the face of the company. What's a first couple of 276 00:20:16.890 --> 00:20:20.250 steps you would recommend B two B marketers to take to help them walk 277 00:20:20.250 --> 00:20:25.770 their smes through that process? I think the first thing is run around the 278 00:20:25.770 --> 00:20:30.580 building and if anyone's in buildings anymore and just do a bit of an audit, 279 00:20:30.590 --> 00:20:34.940 you know, who are are experts and not just experts, but people with these 280 00:20:34.940 --> 00:20:39.610 progressive sort of ideas, you know, and and look beyond the executive ranks. 281 00:20:39.620 --> 00:20:43.480 Big organizations tend to have these public spokespeople that they're not 282 00:20:43.490 --> 00:20:46.960 always the thought leaders, you know, they're often going to be the more 283 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:51.610 solitary bookish figure you don't hear from much, but it actually got cause 284 00:20:51.610 --> 00:20:57.850 some ideas. So you sort of internally with what fly and then also have a look 285 00:20:57.850 --> 00:21:03.590 at your brand topics, you know, and then look at the real world what topics 286 00:21:03.590 --> 00:21:08.850 are under discussion. Uh So you might be an engineering firm, you work out 287 00:21:08.850 --> 00:21:12.480 which engineers know anything, you work out that the world wants to talk about 288 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:17.060 climate change, and then you start trying to marry those two are, you know, 289 00:21:17.060 --> 00:21:22.780 so which of my experts, could actually comment on zero sort of topics, and 290 00:21:22.780 --> 00:21:26.190 then you'll be studying conversation with them, and you're probably doing a 291 00:21:26.190 --> 00:21:30.360 bit of a kind of literature review or market review, because this is a bit 292 00:21:30.360 --> 00:21:34.330 like journalism, where the story is always running, so you're always trying 293 00:21:34.330 --> 00:21:39.080 to work out where the story is up to. And so if we step into this debate, 294 00:21:39.090 --> 00:21:43.890 what are we going to add? You know, And the really biggest thing is what 295 00:21:43.890 --> 00:21:49.090 questions our audience asking, you know, what do people care about or what 296 00:21:49.090 --> 00:21:52.740 problems are they having? Or what opportunities? You know, might they 297 00:21:52.750 --> 00:21:57.860 have in front of them right now that we could answer. And if you start with 298 00:21:57.860 --> 00:22:01.020 those questions and then, you know, overlay it back against those other 299 00:22:01.020 --> 00:22:05.080 topics, it will hopefully come together pretty quickly because your sme will 300 00:22:05.080 --> 00:22:09.700 say yes, I can, I can offer you five fantastic answers to that question. And 301 00:22:09.710 --> 00:22:13.330 then it just becomes a question of how you publish those out. Yeah. So what 302 00:22:13.330 --> 00:22:17.410 I'm hearing you saying is that first you gotta find your experts, do the run 303 00:22:17.410 --> 00:22:22.530 around the building top, find your topics of expertise, find that, and 304 00:22:22.530 --> 00:22:26.030 then once you kind of have, like, a row of all the things you could speak to 305 00:22:26.030 --> 00:22:30.120 you from your subject matter experts or your executives from from within your 306 00:22:30.120 --> 00:22:35.790 company, finding correlation between what topics are trending out in your 307 00:22:35.800 --> 00:22:40.540 industry, going and listening to the conversations on twitter, the kinds of 308 00:22:40.540 --> 00:22:44.060 questions they're asking your pipeline, um and the kinds of questions are 309 00:22:44.060 --> 00:22:47.380 asking in general, um in the space and maybe they're asking them in 310 00:22:47.380 --> 00:22:50.700 conferences or whatever the trending topics are, and trying to find overlap 311 00:22:50.700 --> 00:22:53.830 between those two, right between the things you can speak to, the things 312 00:22:53.830 --> 00:22:58.890 that are out in the world and the last part is finding where you can play a 313 00:22:58.890 --> 00:23:02.690 part in the story, which was kind of interesting being able to project where 314 00:23:02.690 --> 00:23:05.410 the story is going and how you can insert yourself into it since it's 315 00:23:05.410 --> 00:23:10.400 running there. And that's kind of a unique idea most people are playing are 316 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.590 retroactive, so trying to think ahead of where this is going to be going, 317 00:23:13.600 --> 00:23:16.280 knowing that, you know, it takes a little bit of time to get your opinion 318 00:23:16.290 --> 00:23:21.440 on an interview and publish it and actually take time for the, even after 319 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:25.120 you publish it, you know, letting it matriculate out there for it to be time. 320 00:23:25.120 --> 00:23:29.350 Well, you do have to be thinking ahead. So I imagine that could be somewhat 321 00:23:29.840 --> 00:23:33.880 difficult to figure out where things are going to go. Um Is there anything 322 00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:39.170 you do to help people like identify where a story might trend? Do you have 323 00:23:39.170 --> 00:23:44.270 questions you ask them about how they can predict where an idea should go? 324 00:23:44.740 --> 00:23:48.990 Yeah, I think if you're dealing with those experts in a field, they can 325 00:23:48.990 --> 00:23:52.850 usually tell you pretty quickly where things are up to and from a business 326 00:23:52.850 --> 00:23:57.610 point of view, you don't have to be right at the bleeding edge. We worked 327 00:23:57.610 --> 00:24:03.720 on a decade ago, we worked on a report about digital transformation and I've 328 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:09.310 already been an internet reporter, you know, uh for five years and 5 10 years. 329 00:24:09.320 --> 00:24:13.810 And this large organization wanted to do a big report about this internet 330 00:24:13.810 --> 00:24:16.800 thing that's going to have a huge impact. and this is like about 2000 and 331 00:24:16.810 --> 00:24:21.570 10 were like, yeah, people are pretty aware of that and they're like, well 332 00:24:21.570 --> 00:24:25.790 actually our client base isn't, You know, and so we put together this an 333 00:24:25.800 --> 00:24:29.020 enormous report that was, you know, I hate the Internet is going to change 334 00:24:29.020 --> 00:24:35.780 your business in 2010 and it got phenomenal pickup because they actually, 335 00:24:35.780 --> 00:24:38.920 even though the debate amongst the experts and so forth wasn't all that 336 00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:43.550 hot and it always been had in 1999. Business community was only really just 337 00:24:43.550 --> 00:24:49.140 kind of waking up And they put this report out, had a huge impact, started 338 00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:52.820 a whole pile of conversations and it's driven 10 years of work digital 339 00:24:52.820 --> 00:24:59.150 transformation projects in the big end of town ever since then. So, um, so 340 00:24:59.150 --> 00:25:02.780 anyway, there's a, there's a few kind of comments within that one. Talk to 341 00:25:02.780 --> 00:25:06.700 your experts. They'll know where the debate is, but think about where your 342 00:25:06.700 --> 00:25:11.330 markets up to two and how far ahead do you really need to be? You know, 343 00:25:11.340 --> 00:25:15.780 because it might be okay to sort of just putting out something decent on a 344 00:25:15.790 --> 00:25:19.140 topic people still care about. But there's a few other things to keep in 345 00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:23.710 mind. There is that idea of being timely. It works well if you're well 346 00:25:23.710 --> 00:25:29.990 informed on the topic all the time, and then you can pounce on those times when 347 00:25:29.990 --> 00:25:34.030 things come up. So, for instance, if you've got your smes, you've got your 348 00:25:34.040 --> 00:25:37.690 style of articles, you've got your messaging or sorted, and you're talking 349 00:25:37.690 --> 00:25:42.960 to big, big websites and media outlets and so forth. When something happens, 350 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:46.530 You want them to get in touch and say, look, give me a 600 word column by 351 00:25:46.530 --> 00:25:51.460 tomorrow and we can use it, give it to me the day after and I can't use it. So 352 00:25:51.460 --> 00:25:55.630 if you're all locked and loaded in the background and ready to go, then you're, 353 00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:58.590 you can publish something really quickly and you can jump on those 354 00:25:58.590 --> 00:26:02.490 debates. So were a lot of big organizations fail is they work out 355 00:26:02.490 --> 00:26:05.990 their sweet spot, but they're just way too slow, you know, to be in the debate. 356 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:10.400 And by the time the thing is published and signed off by six layers of 357 00:26:10.410 --> 00:26:15.780 corporate vice president, everyone's moved on really fast. So, but the other 358 00:26:15.780 --> 00:26:20.650 thing is to look at what I probably call differentiation and risk. So as 359 00:26:20.650 --> 00:26:24.540 you're doing an analysis where do we want to play and so forth? You know, is 360 00:26:24.540 --> 00:26:28.660 it going to lead to a differentiated or interesting position? You know, if you 361 00:26:28.660 --> 00:26:33.770 go out on a topic who's going to notice and will be picked up beyond your email 362 00:26:33.990 --> 00:26:39.470 list and then the other one is risk. So big organizations have got deep pockets 363 00:26:39.470 --> 00:26:44.050 and so forth and they don't always want to take too much risk. So they might 364 00:26:44.050 --> 00:26:48.250 know all about a topic because they're knee deep in it, but it's the last 365 00:26:48.250 --> 00:26:52.530 thing they want to talk about in public. And so sometimes they've got to find a 366 00:26:52.530 --> 00:26:59.450 thought leadership topic that's a bleak to their main concern. So they might 367 00:26:59.460 --> 00:27:02.810 day in day out there doing high technology over here. But what they 368 00:27:02.810 --> 00:27:08.210 talk about in public is corporate sustainability or, you know, gender 369 00:27:08.210 --> 00:27:12.410 equality in the workplace or you know, and you see that quite successfully 370 00:27:12.410 --> 00:27:15.850 because it doesn't risk the core business. So the thought leadership 371 00:27:15.850 --> 00:27:21.260 stuff can percolate away, start conversations, build the brand without 372 00:27:21.270 --> 00:27:25.990 touching the 3rd 3rd wire of the thing is that the core business cares about 373 00:27:25.990 --> 00:27:30.510 day in day out and we'll keep closing down. Makes a lot of sense. Is there 374 00:27:30.510 --> 00:27:34.260 anything else our audience should know about thought leadership that is around 375 00:27:34.260 --> 00:27:38.270 a question that maybe haven't asked before, but you have run into a lot of 376 00:27:38.270 --> 00:27:41.600 businesses as if you worked on this with them. I think one thing is to 377 00:27:41.600 --> 00:27:46.410 think about the path, right? So you want to go out on a topic that's of 378 00:27:46.410 --> 00:27:49.610 interest and you're going to get noticed on and then you've got the 379 00:27:49.610 --> 00:27:53.740 credibility or the talent to pursue. But from a marketing point of view, 380 00:27:53.750 --> 00:27:57.370 you're trying to start a conversation that goes somewhere towards a certain 381 00:27:57.370 --> 00:28:01.500 sales conversation. So I say if you take that example of talking a lot 382 00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:08.500 about gender equality, does that ultimately feed into sales? You know, 383 00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:13.600 what can you kind of map that pathway? And I think it would be wonderful. 384 00:28:13.600 --> 00:28:16.310 There's lots of big organizations just published on stuff because they cared 385 00:28:16.310 --> 00:28:20.190 about it. But you know, from a commercial point of view, you should be 386 00:28:20.190 --> 00:28:24.470 able to track it through. So Atlassian is a big Australian technology 387 00:28:24.470 --> 00:28:29.480 companies, big in the US, they are talking a lot about working from home 388 00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:35.230 me and that this is permanent, and this is new world of work and so forth. And 389 00:28:35.230 --> 00:28:38.410 they are quite a radical organization. They are doing quite radical things, so 390 00:28:38.410 --> 00:28:41.220 they're interesting and they're not just thought leaders, their activity 391 00:28:41.220 --> 00:28:46.400 leaders, but it fits their core story to write their project management tools, 392 00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:52.330 their team coordination tools, all built for this new virtual world. Uh, 393 00:28:52.340 --> 00:28:54.770 so they've kind of got these thought leaders out there talking about the 394 00:28:54.770 --> 00:28:58.240 future of work and then it all dovetails nicely into sales 395 00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:03.470 conversations that get back to their core product. So if you look at some of 396 00:29:03.470 --> 00:29:06.810 those campaigns, you you sort of see the threads, it's so funny, you 397 00:29:06.810 --> 00:29:10.790 mentioned that last and I literally just interviewed the one of their 398 00:29:10.790 --> 00:29:13.630 senior content marketing experts that's dealing with a lot of their thought 399 00:29:13.630 --> 00:29:18.290 leadership probably a few hours before this one, I'm like, that makes sense. 400 00:29:18.300 --> 00:29:23.440 She was pretty sharp. I don't let her know that you mentioned the job they're 401 00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:28.020 doing over at Atlanta again. But Grant, thank you so much for joining me on GDP 402 00:29:28.020 --> 00:29:32.200 Growth for this interview on Thought Leadership. Where can people go to 403 00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:36.650 learn more from you online? Uh you said you look at editor group dot com, 404 00:29:36.660 --> 00:29:40.170 you'll find blogs and so forth. If you look at think right grow, that's the 405 00:29:40.170 --> 00:29:44.270 book. Thank you. And how you just find me on linkedin underground, but left 406 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:49.770 fantastic again. Thank you so much for joining me on GDP growth. Thanks yeah. 407 00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:55.540 Is the decision maker for your product or service of Bdb marketer? Are you 408 00:29:55.540 --> 00:29:59.750 looking to reach those buyers through the medium of podcasting? Considered 409 00:29:59.750 --> 00:30:04.970 becoming a co host of GDP Growth. This show is consistently ranked as a top 410 00:30:04.970 --> 00:30:09.120 100 podcast in the marketing category of apple podcasts, And the show gets 411 00:30:09.120 --> 00:30:14.710 more than 130,000 downloads each month. We've already done the work of building 412 00:30:14.710 --> 00:30:18.740 the audience so you can focus on delivering incredible content to our 413 00:30:18.740 --> 00:30:24.770 listeners if you're interested, email Logan at sweet Fish Media dot com.