Polish Your Buyer Personas with Vanessa Dreifuss

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:16.719 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be tob growth. Hello 2 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:20.480 and welcome into be to be growth. I'm your host, Benjie Block, 3 00:00:20.519 --> 00:00:24.960 and today we're thrilled to be joined by Vanessa dry fist. Vanessa, welcome 4 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:29.079 into the show. I happy to be here. We're glad to have you, 5 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:33.520 Vanessa. So you are the VP of product and marketing at you need 6 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:39.280 o. That spans two major parts of the company, right, both product 7 00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:42.920 and marketing. So give me a little context as to to what you do, 8 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:48.520 Vanessa. Sure. So I had both sides of the organization, Product 9 00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:54.039 Management and marketing. Product management don't also includes product design, and on the 10 00:00:54.039 --> 00:00:58.920 marketing side we have a digital marketing and a product marketing team. Fantastic. 11 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:04.959 So you posted on Linkedin recently around user and buyer personas and you shared some 12 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:11.920 of your findings after having done really some significant work over the last what year 13 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:15.640 or so? Is that right? Yeah, what was your your team focused 14 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:21.239 on over the past like twelve months or so? So there were two major 15 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:26.640 initiatives that were focused on in the team. The first one is to prioritize 16 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:33.799 the integrations that will build. We're a code integration platform, and so we 17 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:38.840 needed to understand who we were going to integrate and what was their market like. 18 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:45.200 It's a huge undertaking when you think of the Plethora of SAS out there. 19 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:49.040 It's quite fragmented and cluttered at the same time. Yep. And then 20 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.439 the second big initiative was to redesign our product experience to make it more in 21 00:01:53.480 --> 00:02:00.439 line with new customer expectations, make it as intuitive as possible for non developers. 22 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:05.239 And it's a hard problem to address since our product is quite technical. 23 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:09.319 Hm. And so in order to do that correctly, the first step for 24 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:15.360 both those major initiatives was really to define, or redefine, should I say, 25 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:17.919 our personas. Yep, okay, so tell me where you started, 26 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:23.319 like, give me context. What were your personas twelve months ago? Where 27 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:28.719 was that starting place? So we used to have, or we still have 28 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:34.439 in a way, a segment that was quite technical, typically developers, and 29 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:38.960 in order to grow we needed to address a bigger market, and so it 30 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:45.960 entailed having tech savvy customers but that are not technical and their business first, 31 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:50.800 right, and so this meant again pivot on the audience we were going to 32 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:57.520 target, and so we rethought are our personas. Thankfully, our buyer and 33 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:01.319 user personas are the same, because we're a clad yeah, so this helps 34 00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:07.159 in the work to be undertaken and we are also quite lucky because we have 35 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:13.759 a lot of data at hand. So most of the work was about centralizing 36 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:20.599 the data, analyzing it, synthesizing insights, crafting the personas and then distributing 37 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:24.199 its internally so that we could all align in different teams, across different teams 38 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:30.280 and across different initiatives around those two personas. So we'll dive pretty deep into 39 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:34.439 the personas here in a second, but I'd love to hear because you guys 40 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:38.680 being product led. That was actually a shift as well. Correct. Yeah, 41 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:43.639 in a way, maybe we were product lad, but not not assuming 42 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:47.560 it. Okay, and now we've decided that we wanted to align all functions 43 00:03:49.039 --> 00:03:53.960 that way, and this meant again to rethink the jobs to be done, 44 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:58.719 because the first thing is to understand who we're talking to right who? Who 45 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:02.120 is our ideal audience and what pain points we want to solve, and then 46 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:08.439 once that's well defined, it's quite easy to transition to, you know, 47 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:13.919 jobs to be done on the product side, to valid to derive value propositions, 48 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:17.680 to train customer facing teams, etc. But it has to start from 49 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:24.360 a place of knowledge. On whose our audience. Talking on persona specifically. 50 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:28.959 What's the time frame that you guys, we're looking at to try to lock 51 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:32.720 in the the persona us? So it took US six weeks. So in 52 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:38.800 a way it's long, but it's also short. It was six weeks dedicated 53 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:43.319 to the project. So it's a lot of it's a lot of work from 54 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:47.720 multiple people. We've involved a lot of different teams along the way. But 55 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:54.519 then again, this became the foundation for everything else, so the time was 56 00:04:54.560 --> 00:05:00.240 really worth it. Like I said, a lot of the research was done 57 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:04.720 on the data gathering side, so we we could make that extra push to 58 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:10.000 make it into six weeks to feed everything else. I think it's actually quite 59 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:15.600 nice to time box the process so that it doesn't drag on forever and it 60 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:23.279 creates momentum inside the organization. I've seen these processes go on forever and I 61 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:27.000 think this time around we did it quite well. It feels like a process 62 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:30.199 that could go on forever, right, because you could get really nitpicky and 63 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:35.519 you could just try to continually like hone it and over time you'll see the 64 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:40.600 ICP evolve and you want to go back to it and and maybe shift little 65 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:44.120 things. But I like that you guys had that time block and one after 66 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:46.639 it and we'll talk about maybe some of the data that you had before, 67 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.120 because it sounds like obviously you had to pull that in before the six weeks 68 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:54.600 started. Tell me who you're consulting in this time? What voices are are 69 00:05:54.720 --> 00:06:00.439 shaping the ICP? So essentially it's anybody who touches the stomer right, so 70 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:08.160 sales ce US, product managers who are doing user interviews, the marketers who 71 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:14.079 are doing case study interviews. We also involved data because they have first party 72 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:18.240 data from our product and there's a lot of quantitative information that we could gather 73 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:24.720 from there. And everyone has their own facets of the customer, but it's 74 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:30.319 really the sum that makes it complete, and so we involved everyone in different 75 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:33.000 shapes and forms. I'd say sometimes it was in workshops, sometimes it was 76 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:39.199 an interviews. We also did surveys internally, but all in all I'd say 77 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:44.240 sixty percent of the company was somehow involved in the process. Okay, and 78 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:47.879 you land on two personas. So I wonder how you drilled down on on 79 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:51.839 those two specifically. Like no, more, no less. Why did you 80 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:56.720 feel like to was the right number? We didn't decide on to from the 81 00:06:56.720 --> 00:07:02.279 beginning, but we realized along the way that first and made sense and secondly, 82 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:09.079 we wanted to ruthlessly prioritize the people we we want it to attract and 83 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:15.079 we wanted to characterize through the the persona. We also think that too is 84 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:19.360 a number where people can understand deeply what they mean. When you have too 85 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:25.079 many you have a very shallow understanding of them and then they were not meaningful 86 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:29.839 anymore and you can't really do anything from them. So I think in the 87 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.480 and again this to begin with, this is a nice starting place and I 88 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:41.120 do realize that actually in the company multiple teams are using them. For example, 89 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:46.600 a new hire was mentioning that they were trained on the personas during their 90 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:51.879 onboarding process, and so that one foundation does does feed in multiple places in 91 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:57.759 the company. So I think too, is a good number. I would 92 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:03.519 agree. I think, man, once you get anywhere beyond three it's so 93 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:07.040 hard because there's some of those personas that you're probably just not interacting with often 94 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:11.639 enough for it to even be on your radar. So I love that you 95 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:15.759 guys kept it simple there. I'll read a portion here of what you wrote 96 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:20.680 on Linkedin. You said it's important to be as methodical as possible while doing 97 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:26.800 the analysis, synthesis and definition. That's what guarantees that everyone in the company, 98 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:31.319 including future hires, which you just mentioned right, will trust what has 99 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.799 been defined. So expand on that a bit for me. What's the trust 100 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:41.679 that has been built because of this process? So from past lives I've heard, 101 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:46.120 oh, that's the marketing persona, that's the product product persona, that's 102 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:54.559 the ICP, and essentially everyone uses different characteristics to align their initiatives to personas. 103 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:58.679 What this means is that it creates misalignments in the company and it's also 104 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:03.480 highly unproductive because you do the process multiple times to define all of that right, 105 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:09.720 the research, the definition, the distribution. However, if your methodical, 106 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.279 you define the process and you share the process ahead of time and people 107 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:16.799 understand what you're doing and who you're involving. Like I said, you know 108 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:22.440 multiple teams along the way, then first off, everyone feels that they contributed 109 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:28.480 to the outcome, but they also feel like the output reflects reality and it's 110 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:33.360 not biased by the individuals who you you know did it in a bubble, 111 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.480 and so that's what I mean by trust. It means that you do think 112 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.240 it's reflective of reality and you do want to use it because of that. 113 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:45.720 Hey everyone, emily brady with sweet fish here. 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All One word for a twenty five 129 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:46.320 percent discount. All right, let's get back to the show. And then 130 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:48.879 with new higher specifically, you gave a good example of a where that ICP 131 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.039 was taught in the onboarding process, but I'm assuming also some could come in 132 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:58.559 with fresh eyes and they could go well, this might not be like maybe 133 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:01.679 the ICP is off or wrong or they have questions, and this because you've 134 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:05.039 taken so much time on it to really lock it in. You feel like 135 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:09.759 that it helps with new hires too. Yeah, it does. So first 136 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:13.799 off, we've documented the whole process and the insights at every step of the 137 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:16.600 way. So if they want to unpack, you know the end result. 138 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:22.320 It's extremely easy to backtrack from there and I think it's actually useful when you're 139 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:24.879 on boarding to do that. If you do, if you have the time 140 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:28.360 to do that, it's quite interesting to do so. And if they want 141 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:31.320 to challenge it, I mean that's fine as well, and then it leads 142 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:35.039 to a productive conversation in the end. Like you said, you know, 143 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:39.559 they're not locked. The personas have to evolve. Our customers set evolves. 144 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:45.000 So will iterate along the way and what we want is for that feedback loop 145 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:50.000 to be ongoing with everyone in the organization Nice. So you have analysis, 146 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:54.519 synthesis, definition. We brought up data earlier which falls in that analysis kind 147 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:58.519 of phase. Walk me through some of what that looked like leading up to 148 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:05.480 the six weeks. So essentially, what we did is we took an extract 149 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:11.919 of our serum and looked at the customers that converted on higher tier plans and 150 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:18.960 we looked at different data points, meaning their demographic, their fremographic, their 151 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:26.080 technographic, product engagement, product type of usage, and this led to a 152 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:33.159 very detailed actually view of who our customers are and surprisingly enough, it was 153 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:37.000 very clustered, so it was not too complicated in a way to synthesize the 154 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:43.440 insights. But what was missing was the qualitative information, the background, the 155 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:48.879 stories, because this is, you know, people working in tech in that 156 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:54.799 company between five fifty two, five hundred employees, and you know it's dry. 157 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:58.200 You can't relate to that that well. And so that's why also having 158 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.159 then interviews with customer facing teams or with the again, the people who do 159 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:09.320 user interviews provide a richness right to the data that you have and that then 160 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:15.240 you can refine the persona so that they're they're real and you can also connect 161 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:18.399 with them in an empathize with them, and that's a big part of that 162 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:22.600 synthesis piece right is to just take the data and now we're going to make 163 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:28.279 it more personal. What's your favorite part in this process, when synthesis is 164 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.480 starting to actually happen in your to really see this kind of honed in? 165 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:37.759 Talk me through you know what you're feeling there. I have user interviews just 166 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:45.159 generally speaking, I feel like I can relate to customers. They have real 167 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.080 pain, they have real needs. It's not, you know, theoretical stuff 168 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:54.159 you just writes on your slides, and so I find that it's the moment 169 00:13:54.480 --> 00:14:00.480 I like best. I also feel like I imagine a lot of solutions during 170 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:07.919 those movements and I really encourage everyone to speak to customers as much as possible, 171 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:13.519 not always directly, but at least listen to conversation from sales or again, 172 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:18.279 from user interviews, because you have a wealth of information when you're sitting 173 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:20.440 there that you don't get if you're just you know, if you read the 174 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:26.200 transcript. Yeah, I wonder with your experience in product and marketing and now 175 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:33.720 going through this process, like how do you feel your jobs on product and 176 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.720 marketing side helped inform this process? Like what did you learn in it that 177 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:43.879 makes you better in product and marketing? I think my main takeaway is that 178 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:50.080 when you go through that process you connect also with people internally and being part 179 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:58.039 of leadership, you sometimes are removed from certain teams, are from Sind certain 180 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:03.279 individual contributors, and in a way we got to bring storm together and to 181 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:09.440 think of solutions together and that was really cool. Yep, so, okay, 182 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:13.960 many listeners are going to have personas, but those personas may not be 183 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.320 in front of their teams all the time or as often as maybe they should 184 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:22.679 be. Maybe they're not at full effect right and so they don't inform conversations 185 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:28.480 properly. You've done some pretty creative things to keep this in front of your 186 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:33.480 team. What has that looked like? So on the creative thing side of 187 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:39.919 things, you're probably alluding to the workshop that I talked about. We're doing 188 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.679 an off site. We decided to form teams and to pick one persona and 189 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:50.759 illustrate it. And so those teams looked back on the detailed personas and then 190 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:56.879 they illustrated. So they had big canvas, they had paint markers, stiggers, 191 00:15:56.919 --> 00:16:03.360 glitter. It was fun, it was Super Quirky. That's people were 192 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:07.720 making also analogies with other people in the organization. So then you start to 193 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:14.279 reconnect, you know, with those personas and now the arts is in the 194 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:18.000 office. So we see it every day. I love that. Are there 195 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:23.159 any other ways that you now think about the personas or have them in front 196 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:26.840 of people or maybe revisit it in a conversation to just kind of keep it 197 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:32.360 in front? Yeah, so the first thing is when we did this big 198 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:37.519 exercise, part of the distribution plan was to do training. So we've done 199 00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:42.360 that foundational training with customer facing teams, with marketing teams, with product management, 200 00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:48.360 product design, and that exists now for all new hires as well. 201 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:53.720 But we also try to have frequent small touch points or have it frequently in 202 00:16:55.399 --> 00:17:02.440 people's faces. For example, we have it in our brief template what personas 203 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:07.200 we're going to address through the the brief, and that way, every time 204 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:11.960 a product manager or product marketer rights the brief, they know immediately what is 205 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:15.960 audience that they want to target and the persona that it relates to. I 206 00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:21.119 like that. So then, on the evolution of these moving forward. Now 207 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:25.079 for you, Vanessa, what do you how often are you revisiting this? 208 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:29.880 Is there someone or a team of people that go back and look and adjust? 209 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:33.119 Tell me a little bit about how you see this evolving from here. 210 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:38.799 It's quite organic, it'd say. What we realized is that there was an 211 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:44.519 evolution on one out of the two, and so in December and January we 212 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:49.200 actually did further research on that second profile and we updated it last week. 213 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:53.720 Oh Nice. So I don't like there's no cadence, but we do have 214 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:59.720 a cadence of feedback loops with their customer facing teams, and I think they're 215 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:04.119 like the first sounding board to provide feedback whether we should iterate on anything, 216 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:08.240 and I guess we'll try to stay tuched close to them to be able to 217 00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:11.200 address that. Let me ask you, if you don't mind sharing, like 218 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:15.279 was it a small shift last week or what? What kind of are you 219 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:21.279 revisiting and seeing in the data? Yeah, you realize that we were we 220 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:26.079 were too broad with the the persona, and so it made it sort of 221 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:32.799 I'm specific, and we have more data points now on, you know, 222 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:37.680 the tool stack that the persona uses, the rolls or the sub rolls, 223 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:42.640 you know, if you look at bigger functions, and so we've addressed this, 224 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:48.480 we've refined their pain points. So it wasn't a hundred and eighty degree 225 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:53.519 shift from where we were, but we've made twenty percent improvement, let's just 226 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:56.960 say, on the persona. I like that and I like that it's fresh 227 00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:00.200 kind of in your mind, something that you guys are doing right now, 228 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:04.680 because I think that's sort of the challenge of this episode right go take a 229 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:08.880 look and maybe look at some of the data and continue to evolve. When 230 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:14.519 you think of this whole process. was there any challenges or maybe tips for 231 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:18.599 people that will go through what you guys just have over the last year or 232 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:22.920 so, things to, I don't know, avoid or watch out for in 233 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:26.839 this whole process? Yeah, so I think I've touched on that. But 234 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:33.519 try to include more doable teams, but not everyone either, because it can 235 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:38.640 become quite disruptive. So who's the best representative in each team to participates in 236 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:44.720 the process and these super clear on what are going to be the steps, 237 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:48.200 how they were going to be involved, how much time it's going to take, 238 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:53.319 and that way people are happy to participate and the understand what's the the 239 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:59.000 outcome. I think that that's a big one. And the second one is, 240 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:03.400 like I said, be organized and be thorough, because people will ask 241 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.759 how you came up with the outputs. So you need to be able to 242 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:12.160 back up what you claim, just like anything. So if you do it 243 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:17.319 along the way, it's not that much work and then you know you don't 244 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:21.359 have to go back to the output and then just backtrack from there. Otherwise 245 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:25.319 it's it's a lot of work to do. Yeah, it's good. I 246 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:29.400 think the main thing that I'm taking away from our conversation is that just the 247 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:33.960 basic idea of like analysis, synthesis, definition, the quality of each of 248 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:37.039 those parts of the process really seem to inform what you guys did and is 249 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.680 made it very successful. I love the evolution process. That something you're still 250 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:47.240 defining and and seeing progress in and getting more honed in on one of those 251 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:52.319 ICP's. That's that's crucial. And then I love the idea of just a 252 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:56.119 workshop. I love how corky that is and glitter and just trying to make 253 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:00.839 it something fun and accessible. Having it posted up in the office right it's 254 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:03.960 a way that people see it, can reference back to it, and that's 255 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:08.599 a fun jumping off point. So, Vanessa, for those that want to 256 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:11.960 stay connected to you and what you guys are doing, give us a brief 257 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:15.319 rundown on the company, the work you do, and then maybe we're to 258 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:21.319 connect with you online. Sure. So, you need as a no code 259 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:25.880 integration platform. We connect apps so that you can build work flows in just 260 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:30.200 a few minutes. You can found us on you need o Dot Ioh and 261 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:38.640 my linkedin is Vanessa Dreyfuss Dreif you S S, it's actually quite complicated, 262 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:45.039 you will get it wrong. That's fine. Rewind this episode fifteen seconds so 263 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:49.400 you can hear spell it again. But we're we really enjoy having you on, 264 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:53.640 Vanessa, thanks so much for being on this episode of VB growth. 265 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:59.480 I'm super happy to have participated. Thank you for hosting me. Absolutely so. 266 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.039 We're always having these types of conversations here on the show. If you've 267 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:08.039 yet to subscribe, do that now on whatever platform you're listening to this on, 268 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:11.720 and, hey, you can connect with me as well. On linkedin, 269 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:15.920 just search Benji Block, and I'm always talking marketing, business or life 270 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:19.599 and would love to chat with you over there. Keep doing work that matters 271 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:36.519 and will be a back real soon with another episode. We're always excited to 272 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:40.519 have conversations with leaders on the front lines of marketing. If there's a marketing 273 00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:44.039 director or a chief marketing officer that you think we need to have on the 274 00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:48.400 show, reach out email me, Beng dot block at Sweet Fish Mediacom. 275 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:49.920 I look forward to hearing from you.