Messaging That Creates Demand, with Dacia Coffey

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:20.640 Today, on B Two B growth, I am thrilled to have dacy a 3 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:25.960 coffee with me. She's the CEO of the marketing blender and the author of 4 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:31.839 Corporate Caffeine, boosting B two B growth through sales and marketing alignment. DASIO, 5 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:36.640 welcome into the show. So excited. Thank you so much for inviting 6 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:40.880 me. Yes, great to have you here and give us a rundown real 7 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:44.240 quick. Just what landed you in B Two B marketing in the first place? 8 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:47.759 Yeah, so I'm kind of a Weirdo. I cut my teeth in 9 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:52.840 sales, Um and hindsight being all B two B sales. I sold commercial 10 00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:56.840 power tolls, I was on construction sites, I was in pharmaceutical I was 11 00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:00.320 in fundraising England. So I'll be two B. and then my been and 12 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:04.079 I ran a trucking company successfully for eight years and we decided to sell it. 13 00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:10.560 Um It landed me at my full blown first marketing agency role pretty late 14 00:01:10.599 --> 00:01:15.079 in my career, and so two things were happening. Number One, I 15 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:19.239 really resonated with business to business companies because those are my people, and that 16 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:25.599 is weird in agency land. Nobody goes after those clients any lands those clients, 17 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:30.560 and so that was interesting because I was really realizing I had a point 18 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:34.959 of view that aligned with the market that was underserved in the agency world. 19 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:38.840 And then one of my clients was saying you're the weirdest marketer we've ever met. 20 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:44.640 You think marketing should sell things, and I said, well, what 21 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:48.719 Heaven's name is it supposed to do if it doesn't help you sell anything? 22 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:55.519 And that basically was the impetus for the business plan um to launch, to 23 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:59.159 be two be agency. And then nine years later we've been going at it. 24 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:04.200 We offer fresh and Chief Marketing Officer Services and Strategy Messaging for business to 25 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:09.400 business companies in complicated sales environments. There you go. That's incredible and I 26 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:13.960 love the journey there. And Yeah, B two B is just its own 27 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:19.039 special thing right when it comes to marketing and sales. So having that sales 28 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:23.120 background, I know I've personally found even just my little time in sales to 29 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:27.719 be so beneficial for my B two B marketing chops. And so we're glad 30 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:32.520 that we're tapping into your wealth of knowledge on this episode when when we're looking 31 00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:37.439 at the B two B marketing landscape. There's a lot of areas that intrigue 32 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:40.360 me and it's fun to see how different people in organizations are kind of innovating 33 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:46.080 in the space. But you see two specific areas where, in B two 34 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:50.400 B, B two B marketers could get this right and it could create and 35 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:54.719 capture demand at just a whole new level. So what are the two areas 36 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:59.159 you're kind of focused on right now that you see a lot of room for 37 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:04.360 for growth and ultimately for us to creating capture demand? Oh, I love 38 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:09.120 this question. So one big, one huge one is messaging, and what 39 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:15.680 I mean when I'm talking about messaging and the opportunity to be transformational is that 40 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:20.960 messaging is a spectrum. It's like a timeline. Right now, I agree 41 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:28.199 with documenting important fundamentals, brand, promise, value, proposition, etcetera. 42 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:34.439 However, who a buyer is when their first researching their problem all the way 43 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:38.199 to who they are when they finally make a vendor selection and choose their partner, 44 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:45.360 they have changed a lot, and so it's not just about the content 45 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:51.560 that we're delivering there. It's about understanding that the psychology of that buyer was 46 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:55.159 changing and evolving because of the marketing that you're putting out there. And so 47 00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:00.560 messaging is not a single sentence, it's not a small time a little group 48 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:05.199 of magic words, but it is a pathway that you build, an emotional 49 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:12.680 pathway as well as a words pathway to help a buyer solve a problem, 50 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:15.199 and so I really would love for people to embrace that. But the other 51 00:04:15.399 --> 00:04:20.000 thing, beyond messaging, and it really does apply, it's kind of more 52 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:25.639 like a Segue, is I really want to see more people doing sales mapping 53 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:32.040 exercises where you get marketing and sales and customer support in the same room on 54 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:38.920 an old school whiteboard, literally visualizing where are people, what are the tools, 55 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:43.079 what are they asking, because what you're forcing yourselves to do is a 56 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:48.600 line around the buyer journey and have a truly customer centric point of view before 57 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:53.480 the invoice has ever issued. And that's profound because it sets you up for 58 00:04:54.240 --> 00:05:00.000 long term customer satisfaction and that's a big, big deal. The customer Experien 59 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:04.920 it starts at the prospect side. So sales mapping is critical, YEP, 60 00:05:05.319 --> 00:05:11.000 and sales mapping is then going to inform messaging and vice versa, depending on 61 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:13.439 what you already have cooked. So I love that these two were going to 62 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:16.279 tackle both of them together in this episode. Let's Talk Messaging First. We'll 63 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:23.560 go deep on both, but let's talk about what's misunderstood often when it comes 64 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:26.319 to messaging, because I think there's a lot of ways we can get this 65 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:30.879 wrong or we can maybe only half baked the way we think about it right, 66 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:33.839 like, Oh yeah, we've got messaging unlock, but are we really 67 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:42.680 speaking to the journey and educating the potential client right on all the way through, 68 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:46.160 essentially, but give me what you think. We easily get wrong when 69 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:50.519 it comes to messaging. So there's a couple of different things. I won't 70 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:55.120 I will try not to scroll off too much on the first topic, but 71 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:59.519 it's around the sales and marketing misalignment that's really common for so many of us 72 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:03.560 to what I mean by that is that sales needs to focus on sales messaging 73 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:09.319 because they have to reactive, to literally respond to a human being or set 74 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:14.439 of human beings in front of them consistently. But marketing is proactive, right, 75 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:17.639 and so the messaging is predictive. It is on the front end, 76 00:06:17.720 --> 00:06:24.120 and so that's really really important because there's that timeline showing up that marketing is 77 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:28.399 to predict what a buyer needs to see in research and then say the sales 78 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:32.600 handoff is responsive. Right. However, a lot of times in sales driven 79 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:35.920 organizations with so many B two B companies are, I would say, almost 80 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:41.920 all. You know, what happens is that gets pushed backwards where the sales 81 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:47.879 team and the sales leadership starts asking marketing to only have differentiation messaging. Why 82 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:51.279 are we better? Why are we different? And that's fine, but that 83 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:57.560 stuff does not matter. Those exact differentiation words do not matter until there is 84 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:00.240 a fender selection point of view, from a buyer, that means they have 85 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:03.279 to be educated, they have to go through all of that research, they 86 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:06.879 have to understand their problem. Then they have to going to understand their solutions, 87 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:13.519 and I don't mean solutions among specific vendors, I mean total business solutions. 88 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:17.879 I could turn left or right completely different ways to solve their existing problem. 89 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:24.360 Then as they narrow down what they're doing, then there's context around us 90 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:29.800 versus them, and so that can create some real dissonance around, you know, 91 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:34.160 inside and it can derail a marketing team. And so from an internal 92 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:39.879 organizational perspective. That's important, and so I think that timeline piece is absolutely 93 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:45.360 critical and marketing, because marketers are predictive, like we literally are forced to 94 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:48.199 be. We have to be thinking future oriented, we have to be thinking 95 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:54.519 buyer's journey in order to do our job effectively and plan for conversions and teeing 96 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:58.600 up a successful sale. We naturally, even if we might not be calling 97 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:01.879 that, we do understand that there has got to be a timeline of content 98 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:07.240 and if we can create some stronger language around how messaging evolves and that it's 99 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:13.560 actually a spectrum, not a single value proposition, not a single differentiation point 100 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:18.480 of view, not a list of bullet points, that is a really, 101 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:22.720 really big deal when it comes to messaging. So that's that's my big one. 102 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:26.160 The final thing I'll toss out around how it's misunderstood is, man we 103 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:33.879 just kill the emotion in B two B around messaging. Decision Making happens in 104 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:37.879 the emotional center of Center, center of the brain, and so if we're 105 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:45.279 stripping our messaging of the emotion, then we're not truly following the buyer on 106 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:50.679 their real decision maker journey because we're pretending the psychology of decision making doesn't happen. 107 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.720 So again there's that journey showing up, and so I think those are 108 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.399 come some of the key ways that it's misunderstood. Yeah, I love that 109 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:03.559 you're using this idea of a timeline and how that could inform our content strategy. 110 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:07.919 I think we are probably pretty familiar of, at least the content marketers 111 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:11.440 listening to this right kind of trying to create content for every part of the 112 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:16.120 funnel. But speak to maybe how those things line up. Are there differences 113 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:20.279 between talking about it in the timeline or creating content for every part of the 114 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.360 funnel? And Yeah, like, do you see differences there at all? 115 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:26.799 So yes and no. So I'm going to complicate this a little bit, 116 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:31.960 but since we're talking to Super Smart Audience, I think they're gonna have fun 117 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:35.639 with this conversation. So marketers, I believe, are already doing a really 118 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:41.120 strong job, B two B marketers, of understanding different types of content has 119 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:45.000 to happen in the different parts of the funnel, right Tofu content, you 120 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:48.440 know, versus both food content, etcetera. Um, but what I do 121 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:54.559 think is that that psychology piece, Um, and also broadening the messaging to 122 00:09:54.720 --> 00:10:01.519 be very holistic around with the buyers actually experience incing and how difficult it is 123 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.879 to make a decision. Is Really, really kind of the part where this 124 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:13.320 timeline is slightly different, because it's not just about understanding your product or understanding 125 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:18.919 your industry's application or solution to a problem. It's bigger. It's what they're 126 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:24.799 facing, it's the war on attention that they have going on and so honestly, 127 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:28.279 it's even the type of content. We've been taught. checklists are more 128 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:31.840 effective, as you know, top of the funnel content versus white papers at 129 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:37.440 the later. So we're getting close. But it's even more specific than that, 130 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:41.679 you know. I mean the introductory language that you use, the emotional 131 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:46.519 language where you're identifying and you're basically trying to read their mind and how they 132 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:48.639 feel, how they see their problem, and you're starting there. So you're 133 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:54.960 literally changing the point of view with which you're trying to resonate as your content 134 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:58.559 evolved. So it's not so much I think we really all have a good, 135 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:03.759 solid handle on this substance that needs to be spread out in the content 136 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:09.759 marketing journey, but the emotion and how that introductory resonant language changes. I 137 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:13.600 think that's really the key. So it's a yes and answer. So it's 138 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.559 not too different. It's more additive, if you will, when you're thinking 139 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:20.960 about a timeline. Well, we'll explain there. I want to double click 140 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:26.720 on the language thing because I think it's really easy, which we're about to 141 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:31.759 talk about sales mapping, right. So let's say you identified all these pieces 142 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:35.320 in the funnel that you want to create content for. Okay, that's like 143 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:39.799 the easy step. The hard part is at the top of the funnel, 144 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:43.679 the language we're using being different. If you're an expert, I promise one 145 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:50.159 of the best communicating are exercises you can ever do is figuring out how to 146 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:56.240 make something elementary again once you know it at so that's where this strategy to 147 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:01.679 me. It's fantastic if you can personally learn it, but if you're listening 148 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:03.799 to the show right now and you're a leader man, if you want to 149 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:09.480 make yourself extra valuable for your company, figure out how to equip the marketers 150 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:15.080 on your team to speak the language they know so well at their most elementary 151 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:18.480 level. So that's my question for you is, how would you train someone 152 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:22.279 to do that? Because we know the topics we need to cover, but 153 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.360 often I come across B two B websites where they're covering the right topic but 154 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:31.960 in the wrong language. Yes, so if anybody wants to do a deeper 155 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:33.600 dive on this, it's in my book, but I would like to use 156 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:39.399 the language called we call it messaging choreography. And so it's about not just 157 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:43.320 about saying the right thing, but about saying the right thing at the right 158 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:48.039 time in the right tone. And so at the very top of that the 159 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:52.600 number one way to get somebody's attention and attention is in exchange. So, 160 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:58.320 for instance, we ask people to pay attention. That means if they are 161 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:01.159 paying US something, we need to be giving them something for that payment. 162 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.639 So it is literally an exchange. And so how do you how do you 163 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:09.120 give something a value where people pay in their attention? Well, then, 164 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.240 number one thing is you talk to them about them, and so that's where 165 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:18.320 we talk about messaging choreography. The very first thing is mirroring, and so 166 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:24.840 early in their problem research phase you've got to talk about all of the overwhelm 167 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:28.919 all of the emotions surrounding how how it feels to have that problem, how 168 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.440 overwhelming it is to have so many different solutions, how difficult it is to 169 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:37.759 carve out time to solve a problem in the modern world. So that's just 170 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:41.919 an example, but you really have to think about them, almost empathetically, 171 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:43.879 walking in their shoes. What does it feel like to sit at their desk? 172 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.559 And I mean feel like, and that's the introductory language. We call 173 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:52.360 it mirroring, and that's the other thing. Is You're called to action. 174 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:56.840 You're asking somebody to pay attention. You're not asking them to marry you, 175 00:13:56.840 --> 00:14:00.559 you're not asking them for the sale, and so you've got to be really 176 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:05.360 thoughtful that you match match the mirroring and the emotional language to an appropriate call 177 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:11.440 to action so that they actually can take a step closer to you without creating 178 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:15.639 that friction that can happen going too fast. My a D D will take 179 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:18.480 over if I let you go further and I'll forget this question. So just 180 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.200 take me to what's an appropriate call to action? Top of this conversation. 181 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:26.759 You're just explaining the problem in their language. You're doing some mirroring techniques. 182 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:28.120 What, what do you think is an appropriate call to action? All right, 183 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:31.399 my data marketers out here are gonna be so mad about this one, 184 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.440 but honestly, it's even just to get them to stay on the page longer. 185 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:39.600 So sometimes the call to action is more subtle where we're tracking time on 186 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:45.840 page. I love video clicks right Um or watch longer type of thing. 187 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.799 And so especially at that top, top place. I mean this is where, 188 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.960 you know, we just are asking them to move from attention to time. 189 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:58.159 So literally a single click through or two click throughs. I mean we're 190 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:03.720 just trying to get past that standard seven seconds. Yeah, that's good. 191 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:09.320 Okay. So give me an example before we go on to the sales mapping, 192 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:15.399 of just how language would change as the lead matures and as they get 193 00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:20.279 a better understanding what how's that playing out practically speaking? I love it. 194 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.759 Okay. So, literally, when I was talking about how it feels to 195 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:28.720 be behind their desk, Um, if you've done any of your buyer persona 196 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:31.519 research, which I know you guys have, in Very B two B marketing, 197 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:35.200 you have to, you know, think about the words they literally used 198 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:41.080 to describe their problem. And this is where it gets tricky, because sometimes 199 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:45.799 the words that they're using early in the research phase they're wrong. Right, 200 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:48.639 like, as subject matter experts, we know that's not the real problem or 201 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:54.480 that's not really the correct semantics. It does not matter. You have to 202 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.080 mirror how they see their problem. You have plenty of time and the rest 203 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:03.879 of the buyer's journey to correct them and educate them around more proper language and 204 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.360 how to understand their solutions and their problem better. But in the beginning you 205 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:12.519 meet them where they're at and that means very specific language, language around how 206 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:18.279 their problem feels and what they see about it. Now, later on, 207 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:22.759 you might remind them, you will still start with emotional language, but now 208 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:30.000 you're talking to a more advanced educated buyer and you're talking to them more with 209 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:34.240 emotion, around being so close to solving a solution. You know you want 210 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:40.559 to paint a picture of resolution and try to Pique excitement about the fact that 211 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.960 sometime soon they are no longer going to have this problem, and that's very 212 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:47.960 different and you can't do that too earlier. You're going to freak them out 213 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:52.679 because they've got a long way to go in order to manage change inside the 214 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:56.440 organization, inside of their own psychology before they're going to make a decision. 215 00:16:56.440 --> 00:17:00.240 So you've got to be just really, really thoughtful around where the emotion and 216 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.880 the understanding is and just meet them where they are, whether it's the exact 217 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:10.880 words you agree with or not. You mentioned a common issue in the B 218 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:15.759 two B space that I also felt firsthand on our first call. You talked 219 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:19.000 about how, once you start going down this road, you're changing your language. 220 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:25.359 You start to realize, oh well, maybe the fact that we're trying 221 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:30.319 to push people to a demo just as fast as possible because, oh, 222 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:33.079 look, our marketing materials working and we can prove it out, because look 223 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:36.519 at all these demos that we helped equip, right, but that that actually 224 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:38.960 might not be going back to the call to action piece, that might not 225 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:42.680 be the call to action that makes the most sense and that's going to make 226 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:51.640 some people panic a little bit. We see this one show up a lot, 227 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:56.440 that the demo early in the sales cycle is way too soon. And 228 00:17:56.519 --> 00:18:00.599 here's why. Because when someone's watching a demo they need context to understand what 229 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:04.359 they're seeing. Right. But if you're placing is one of your earliest calls 230 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:08.920 to action, you've got a buyer that hasn't really learned much about the different 231 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:14.240 opera offerings in the different ways that they might be able to solve their problem. 232 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:15.880 So you're gonna have somebody on the call or on the Demo Gooing, 233 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:19.680 Yup, uh Huh. Yeah, it looks good, Yep, but what 234 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:25.839 those Yups ands actually mean is I don't know what I'm looking at, and 235 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:30.640 so it probably looks pretty in great to them, but they don't really understand 236 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:36.680 where in that positioning mind map it's supposed to go. And so what ends 237 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:41.359 up happening is you have to do that demo two or three times more and 238 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:45.640 oftentimes for other people in addition, because later when they're building consensus, because 239 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:49.960 in a demo they have to understand what they're viewing versus other options. And 240 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:55.519 if you put and that's a time investment, it's not an attention investment. 241 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:57.559 So attention, like I said, is a couple of you know, getting 242 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:02.079 them from a couple of seconds to third seconds, to sixty seconds to ninety 243 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:07.359 seconds. Once you start getting those multiple minutes, then you're asking them to 244 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.680 invest time and you spend time on you. And so that's why a demo 245 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:18.079 early on is oftentimes slowing down a buyer cycle, not speeding it up, 246 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:19.599 and so that can be really, really dangerous because they just don't know what 247 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:23.359 they're looking at and they don't even know that. They don't know what they're 248 00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:29.039 looking at. Yeah, we could stick on that point for a long time, 249 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.920 but that to me, that actually flows and drives US perfectly into the 250 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:37.599 second part of this right, because once you get sales mapping right, you're 251 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:41.079 gonna be able to place where the demo fits better in this entire structure and 252 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:48.720 then you can actually truly start fostering demand in a different way. So take 253 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:52.160 me through, you know, this exercise. There's gonna be people listening that 254 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.599 have done something like this before, but I'll assume you know there's gonna be 255 00:19:56.599 --> 00:20:00.880 pieces of this that are different for every organization. Let's go as basic as 256 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:07.160 we can first. When you're thinking of sales mapping, what's this exercise like? 257 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:10.799 What should it look like? Yep, absolutely so. It is literally 258 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:14.200 a small group of people in a room in front of a white board, 259 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:18.640 Um, and you are drawing. We like to use a circle. In 260 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:21.400 my book you can see examples if anybody wants to, you know, go 261 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:23.920 through this with their team. We draw a circle and we simplify the sales 262 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:29.519 cycle into awareness. How do they know you exist and how are they how 263 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:33.079 are you getting them to pay attention and then trust are you who you say 264 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:38.000 you are in getting them to spend time with you? And then, obviously, 265 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:42.599 what has to happen to close the deal, and marketing can and should 266 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.240 support the clothes, and so that's a little tangent. I'm not going to 267 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:49.200 chase that one, but this is really important. But you have this group 268 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:53.160 of people in your talking about what are the common questions, what are the 269 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:59.920 common conversations in each one of these what are the tools that we have each 270 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:03.200 place, on the marketing side and on the sales side, that those buyers, 271 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:08.200 those prospects, are engaging with? And you put it in an order, 272 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:12.359 in a chronological order, so everybody can see and what you're actually doing 273 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:19.160 is creating a visualization exercise the shows the buyer's journey in the real world, 274 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:25.079 the common conversations, the common language, the tools that sales is or is 275 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:29.519 not using, the marketing pieces that are are not effective, because one of 276 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:33.240 the things that happens is marketers say we've got all fifty of these different things 277 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.400 and only three of them show up in a sales mapping exercise, because it's 278 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:41.519 the only thing the buyers actually need. And so you can get lean in 279 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:47.160 the right places, but you can also visualize where you might be losing people 280 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:52.319 and why, because, especially if you have a particularly sparse portion of that 281 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.400 map, well, you know, maybe you can ask the right questions to 282 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:03.960 find out. You need to fortify that area across the marketing and sales spectrum. 283 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.759 So if I was doing this exercise, I think I'd want a couple 284 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:11.279 of practitioners that are in the weeds on actually executing this day in, day 285 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:15.119 out, and then obviously you're gonna have some executives in the room. Probably 286 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:19.920 your CEO is pretty involved in the price CEO, CMO or director of marketing, 287 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:22.960 and then you're going to have your sales leader. Who Else is? 288 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:26.519 Am I missing somebody? But who? Who Do you want to be in 289 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:32.400 that small group? You completely nailed it because really you're trying to build tribal 290 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:37.160 knowledge inside of your organization where everybody has a unique bit specific queen of view 291 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:42.039 of that buyer at a different place. So you want your salespeople because they 292 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:48.079 heard those conversations. You want your marketers because they know what's being clicked on 293 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:52.039 and what people are responding to, and those early research phase. I definitely 294 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:56.720 love when there is a customer service or a project manager or an operations people, 295 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:03.519 the people that just know the customers once they're actually customers. And definitely 296 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:10.319 leadership, because what sales mapping does is it creates a realistic action plan for 297 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:15.759 what to build and what to kill and it creates decision making criteria where everybody 298 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:21.799 can agree in the best thing about it is that people start asking really interesting, 299 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:26.319 smart questions by simply following their curiosity, because customer service might not have 300 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:30.880 ever heard that on the prospect side. And Wow, like what can happen 301 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:37.680 when now you're building a customer experience all the way back from truly cradle to 302 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:42.880 grave perspective? I mean it is incredibly impactful for marketers but ironically, for 303 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:48.160 the entire organization. So I'm a huge fan of this for alignment and simplicity 304 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:56.079 sake. So I would think that one of the complexities of this. First, 305 00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:00.759 it's called sales mapping, so it already sounds like is leading this, 306 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:06.200 but I don't think they necessarily should. The other the other part of this 307 00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:08.799 too is we all know in the B two B space, for so many 308 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:15.039 organizations, marketing was like the last in the room. You had to get 309 00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.880 your funding, you have your team's kind of built out and then you're like, 310 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.319 okay, now we have enough security to really bring in marketing and figure 311 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:27.920 out our messaging. And so you're not only is this maybe leaning on that 312 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:33.160 sales word, but it's also you're late to the room. Do you think 313 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:40.599 marketing should be leading this conversation and, if so, how do we go 314 00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:45.519 about that when so much in the B Two b space is driven by just 315 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:51.039 sales? Oh, such a good, tricky question. So yes, I 316 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:56.240 do think marketing should be leading this conversation if, and here's the big if, 317 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:07.480 if they have the UM perception inside the organization and the natural tendency in 318 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:14.640 their own selves to to follow their curiosity and be very open to whatever they 319 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:18.759 hear, even if they don't like the answers, and to not take um 320 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:26.400 offense to anything like if certain things are not valued in that room or certain 321 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:30.039 tools are not used as much as you would like them too, because that's 322 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:34.839 the that's the tricky part. So if, UM, there is a marketing 323 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:38.559 leader that's new to the organization, it's a perfect opportunity, or new to 324 00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:44.559 a promotion, it's a really perfect opportunity to use that newness to ask very 325 00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:48.279 um open questions that don't have an angle or an agenda to them. But 326 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.440 this is one of those scenarios where, if that's not true, if there 327 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:59.559 is significant emotional friction around sales and marketing or marketing any beyond, the team 328 00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:03.319 is feeling really undervalue, where's gonna be difficult to go through that conversation. 329 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:11.039 This is where an external facilitator is magic because the value is equal and it 330 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:15.240 aligns the team around what are we trying to accomplish together. And you know, 331 00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:19.279 in an external person won't let any agendas be run because they don't they 332 00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:22.559 can walk through and they can kind of kill those sacred cals, if you 333 00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:26.640 will, because they don't know not to write. So it's a yes, 334 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:32.160 if question. But I still do believe, even from an external facilitation standpoint, 335 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:37.079 this is a marketing ownership point of view because, after sales mapping, 336 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:41.480 sales mapping done well will form the basis of your entire actionable marketing plan. 337 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:47.720 I literally call it the hack for building a marketing plan because it's the fastest 338 00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:52.720 way to see what's missing and what you need and what's actually working and how 339 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:57.519 marketing is actually driving sales conversations and how sales is actually working those leads. 340 00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:03.319 So it's incredibly half of which is why I believe wholeheartedly must be on the 341 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:08.160 marketing side. But the facilitation of that is a little tricky if there's, 342 00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:15.319 you know, any sort of cultural misalignment happening in the organization. So if 343 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.680 you're going to take on a project of this kind of skill, get everybody 344 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:23.319 in the room actually have a meeting of the minds. Once you've completed this, 345 00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:29.880 there is the ongoing maintenance that this is working, these content pieces are 346 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.400 better than others. This is most helpful to sale, the sales team. 347 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.640 How often are you revisiting it with those key stakeholders? What does it look 348 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.480 like to to update it? Such a great, great, great, great 349 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.160 question. So two answers um one is really straightforward, one's a little more 350 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:49.720 complicated. The straightforward one is if there's been massive team change on the sales 351 00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:52.279 side, on the leadership side, on the marketing side, you need to 352 00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:56.920 Redo this one simply because, like I said, this needs to form decision 353 00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:03.440 making criteria that aligns all the teams on the same page and if there's a 354 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:07.160 new team or new voices, they need to be allowed to see this firsthand 355 00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:11.519 and participate in it um so that's the straightforward answer. The slightly more complicated 356 00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:15.640 answer, if the team is really stable and there has not been turnover in 357 00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:21.960 any of those key areas, is that as you see these things, it's 358 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:25.519 start to apply ways that you can track them. You know, real return 359 00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:30.359 on investment in marketing is about running towards the right problem next right. So 360 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:33.839 if you think about a business development pipeline, and I mean a holistic one, 361 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:40.400 not marketing funnel over here and sales pipeline over here, total business development 362 00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:45.519 funnel, the real key is to find out where are we hemorrhaging opportunities, 363 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:49.079 where are we losing the most people or where our leads least qualified, et 364 00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:55.319 Cetera. And so when you are looking at this, a lot of times 365 00:28:55.319 --> 00:29:00.559 there's big opportunity on the marketing side for improving lead quality or making the lead 366 00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:03.599 flow more efficient, like how do we get them in a more ready state 367 00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:10.319 once they talk to sales? That's fine, when the sales mapping really needs 368 00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:15.759 to be redone is when you realize that the business development funnel the total one, 369 00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:22.400 where the next big problem is really inside of that sales pipeline portion like 370 00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:26.039 closer to the tip of the sphere. Um. And so what? And 371 00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:33.839 the reason why is because marketing is uniquely, uniquely and powerfully positioned to help 372 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:40.240 sales solve these problems, because marketers are frequently better writers than salespeople. They 373 00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:44.319 have more time to do it. So marketing can do lots of interesting things 374 00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:48.799 about pre writing sales content and, you know, working through common conversations and 375 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:56.720 helping sales teams put in real and practical sales collateral that can move the sales 376 00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:00.759 cycle along faster. They can create automations. There's so many different things they 377 00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:04.519 can do. And so when it's really showing up in the numbers or in 378 00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:08.359 the subjects, you know subjective stories, you know closing ratios are off, 379 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:15.279 but you you can see that the next big problem to solve is improving closing 380 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:21.680 ratios and improving how quickly the sales cycles actually running. That's a great time 381 00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:26.400 to Redo um the sales mapping exercise, because there's probably some broken assumptions like 382 00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:30.920 a demo in a wrong place, or like how many case studies you need 383 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.440 to show or how many follow ups that actually takes to close the sale, 384 00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:37.920 and marketing can really help fortify those sales people and get them in a more 385 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:44.799 powerful position to make really quick and really aggressive improvements in the most important place 386 00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:51.519 in the sales funnel. I think both of these are so important. These 387 00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:56.000 are conversations we have to be having. How messaging is often misunderstood, updating 388 00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:59.559 or messaging and then and then sales mapping, and I think coming up for 389 00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:03.440 air here at the end of this conversation and thinking about how much alignment can 390 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:07.759 be driven if you were to, let's say, on the sales mapping side, 391 00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:12.480 to really stress this to your team in a meaningful way, even outside 392 00:31:12.519 --> 00:31:15.559 of if if you know sales and marketing, sits under revenue, if you 393 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:22.400 stress this to your entire organization, once you have this written out, the 394 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:26.400 amount of momentum it can create for you when done right, when these conversations 395 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:30.839 just become natural inside your organization and people feel like they're on the same page, 396 00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:34.480 these are some of the most meaningful conversations you can have. So for 397 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:38.759 the marketers listening to this, if you've done a sales mapping exercise and it's 398 00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:44.720 sitting in a google drive somewhere or it's sitting on some website, like does 399 00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:49.079 that thing off and make sure that people are aware of what this actually looks 400 00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:53.240 like for new hires. This should be something that everyone walks through, because 401 00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:56.920 you're going to all speak the same language and you won't have to update it 402 00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:00.559 as often, even as there's turnover, right, because then people are already 403 00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:04.000 on the same page. You can make little adjustments as you go but to 404 00:32:04.039 --> 00:32:07.279 me, this that piece of sales mapping. Make sure that it's not just 405 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:10.559 an exercise you do once, but it's in front of people often. That's 406 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:15.799 going to make this so, so meaningful. All right, I want Dacy, 407 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:19.319 I want you to end this episode by giving us a challenge, giving 408 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:23.000 us some homework coming out of this conversation around messaging and sales mapping. What 409 00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:29.079 should we do with the information we learned learned from you today? Alright, 410 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:34.519 so I'm actually gonna give you two Um you know. One is ask the 411 00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:37.400 dumb questions. What I mean by that is reach across the aisle, you 412 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:42.799 know, reach from marketing, this sales style side, to create these conversations 413 00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:47.079 where you allow yourself to ask open ended questions, because you might be surprised 414 00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:52.200 at what you hear. So constantly go back test your assumptions, especially if 415 00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:58.079 you're if something is broken, something is happening in the data Um, go 416 00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:01.480 back and think about them staging piece and think about where, and a lot 417 00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:05.720 of times that tribal knowledge in your industry or inside of your organization will help 418 00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:09.319 you find it. The other one is a lot more personal, fundamental and, 419 00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:15.200 I think, exciting, and it's that I really really want marketing to 420 00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:22.200 take on a Servant Leadership Paradigm, like where it's not just about the right 421 00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:28.680 content or the right tactic, but it is literally about the empathy of being 422 00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:34.960 human and realizing that your work is helping other business people elevate their work do 423 00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:39.599 amazing things. And so when you're putting great content out there and you're allowing 424 00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:45.559 yourself to speak to the emotion of that problem, the emotion of that situation, 425 00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:51.480 you're validating that they're not alone, you're encouraging them that they can make 426 00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:57.119 progress in a really complicated scenario and that it's possible and that there are good 427 00:33:57.160 --> 00:34:02.799 people guiding the process. And so a allowing year selves as marketers to really 428 00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:08.599 think that way and to express that thought, that servant leadership thought, that 429 00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:15.960 customer centricity in your work internally in your organization. It is amazing. When 430 00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:20.480 that starts taking on a life of its own internally, what happens? Because 431 00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:23.559 it will, because it's fundamental about how like, about what it feels like 432 00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:27.840 to be a human being, and we bring that humanity into the business world, 433 00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:30.199 but sometimes we try to squash it or we pretend that it's not there. 434 00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:34.920 But we are complicated at work just like we are complicated at home, 435 00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:43.880 and marketers are the perfect people to validate that and create that service attitude that 436 00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:49.280 really allows people to explore their potential in the work world. So that's my 437 00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:53.119 real challenge to the audience is embrace it all, dive like, be all 438 00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:58.239 in on your work. Don't Pigeonhole, because what called you to marketing is 439 00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:01.800 something fundamental about your humanity and about what you believe in, about the business 440 00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:07.079 world and people. So don't let experience or business steal that from you. 441 00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:13.599 Go back to that spark. I love it. Thank you for the challenge. 442 00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:16.400 I think that's a great way to start to wrap this thing up. 443 00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:20.840 For listeners that are hearing this, they want to stay connected to you, 444 00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:22.599 to the work that you do. What's the best way for people to connect? 445 00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:28.280 Yeah, absolutely so, especially based on what we were talking about today, 446 00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:30.400 my book Corporate Caffeine. You can find it on all the major channels 447 00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:35.199 Amazon. I also have a podcast if you want to hear more about how 448 00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:38.480 this stuff is actually applied. Um and it's called corporate caffeine also, and 449 00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:43.519 so you can find on all the major podcast platforms. And if anybody's looking 450 00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:50.119 for structured support, my company is the marketing BLENDER DOT com. Absolutely wonderful 451 00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:52.280 to have you with us today. Thanks so much for stopping by. B 452 00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:57.559 Two B growth. This was so fun and keep up the amazing work. 453 00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:00.800 You guys are awesome. Benji so appreciated, and I want to say to 454 00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:05.599 all of those listening thank you for checking out this episode. If you haven't 455 00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:08.079 followed me to be growth on whatever podcast player you're listening to this on right 456 00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:10.880 now, we'd appreciate you following the show so you never missed an episode. 457 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:15.159 We're here to help fuel your growth and innovation and you can reach out to 458 00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:20.719 me on Linkedin at any time to search Benji block talking about marketing, business 459 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:22.480 and life over there, and we'd love to hear from you. All right, 460 00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:31.960 we'll be back real soon with another episode. THANKS FOR LISTENING TO EVERYBODY