May 24, 2022

Competing on Thought Leadership, with Robert Buday

In this episode, Benji talks to Bob Buday, Founder and CEO at Buday Thought Leadership Partners LLC, and Author of the book "Competing on Thought Leadership".

Today Bob helps us rethink thought leadership. Sharing how to develop exceptional content and create demand for the expertise. Bob defines Thought Leadership as: "The acclaim that a firm or a person earns for developing, marketing and delivering superior expertise in solving complex customer problems. More broadly, and this is important, this as a business strategy, not just a marketing strategy."

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:17.480 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth. Today 2 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:23.039 I am here with Bob Uday. He has just authored a new book titled 3 00:00:23.079 --> 00:00:26.719 Competing on Thought Leadership. I picked it up, I gave it a read, 4 00:00:26.760 --> 00:00:30.960 I thought and this is a conversation worth having. And so, Bob, 5 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:34.799 I'm excited to chat with you today on be tob growth. Welcome, 6 00:00:35.159 --> 00:00:38.880 thank you. I'm excited to chat about what I know about this topic of 7 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:43.719 thought leadership. Yes, competing on thought leadership. So, before we jump 8 00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:47.280 to the book, let's go. What have you been up to in the 9 00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:51.079 world? What's your career been about? Tell us a little bit about yourself 10 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:56.399 and what sparked this this interests for writing on this topic. Sure, what 11 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:00.840 I have been doing thought leadership for thirty five years, which bans I've been 12 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:06.879 doing it long before the term was concocted. Yeah, so really by Joel 13 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:12.680 Kursman back in the s when he was at Booze Allen. So what we 14 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:15.879 were doing thirty five years ago we didn't really have a common term for it. 15 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:21.040 We were just I was working at a consulting firm. That said, 16 00:01:21.079 --> 00:01:26.680 the way we generate business is by writing publications and giving conference speeches and running 17 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:30.519 our own conferences and, you know, try to get the expertisets in the 18 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:34.480 head heads of our consultants, package it, so to say, and get 19 00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:40.799 it out there and a non sales the nonpromotional way. You know, it's 20 00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:44.879 like we need to educate. This is how we will educate our target audience 21 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:48.799 and those who are in drinking enough and think we have something to say, 22 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:51.519 they'll raise their hand, they'll call us and we'll say, Hey, I 23 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:53.280 loved your speech or I loved your article. Want to talk to you more 24 00:01:53.319 --> 00:02:00.519 about it. Yeah, you define thought leadership as the a claim that a 25 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:07.000 firm or a person earns for developing, marketing and delivering superior expertise, which 26 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:09.479 is exactly what you just said. So even before the term was defined, 27 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:13.639 that's essentially what you're doing. You're educating the market. You're doing that by 28 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:19.400 developing marketing and delivering superior expertise and, when you say in solving complex customer 29 00:02:19.479 --> 00:02:22.479 problems. And then, more broadly, and I think this is really important, 30 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:27.000 you see this as a business strategy, not just a marketing strategy. 31 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:30.199 So break that down a bit. How is this a business strategy and not 32 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:36.319 just simply a function of marketing. So most people think of thought leadership as 33 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:40.599 a marketing strategy. Right. That's thought leadership. Marketing is, I think, 34 00:02:40.599 --> 00:02:46.680 what most people think about. My careers has been working with firms that 35 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:51.280 are in the business of delivering expertise. They sell their expertise. These firms 36 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:55.680 are management consulting firms, law firms, architecture firms, it services firms, 37 00:02:55.759 --> 00:03:00.159 training and development companies. There in the business of telling their expertise. You're 38 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:05.680 hiring them because you want to solve a certain problem in your company. So 39 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:09.639 they're in the business, or they should be in the business, of creating 40 00:03:09.639 --> 00:03:15.360 new expertise, because expertise, especially in the last decade or so, gets 41 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:21.599 obsolete faster. There in the business of developing expertise, improving the expertise they 42 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:25.000 have, of course, delivering it to market, more training and developing their 43 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:30.919 people to operate at the performance of the best people in their firm. And 44 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:36.360 of course they're in the business of creating demand for their expertise, and that 45 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:42.719 means marketing, selling and doing research when they need to take a step back 46 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.719 and say we need to upgrade our expertise on solving this business problem or we're 47 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:50.479 going to solve a new business problem and we don't know much about it. 48 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:53.919 So we're going to conduct some primary research to understand what the best companies are 49 00:03:53.960 --> 00:04:00.840 doing and solving this problem and how the way they're solving it differ from the 50 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:04.159 rest, or the worst companies especially. So there's a lot when it comes 51 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:10.199 to demand specifically for thought leadership, that I have thoughts on. And but 52 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:15.000 I think we know there's mounting complexity, specifically and for this audience. You're 53 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:18.360 talking to a be to be marketing audience and they're going yeah, continued mounting 54 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:25.560 complexity. How do we continue to kind of all of this complexity has caused 55 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:30.720 this demand for specialized expertise, for thought leadership, but also there's a ton 56 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:33.759 of content out there. So so how do you think of that? There's 57 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:40.959 a growing need for this demand in specialized expertise, but there's also a ton 58 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.519 of content, right, that's right. And so the good news is there's 59 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:49.720 growing demand for four people and firms who are deep experts in their domains, 60 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:54.920 growing need. So you know, fifteen years ago we didn't need social media 61 00:04:54.959 --> 00:05:00.160 experts in companies, right, because what fest facebook started two thousand and two 62 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:03.519 two thousand and three Linkedin, I think, around the same time, twitter 63 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:09.759 as well. So maybe it's twenty years we didn't need experts in social media 64 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:13.680 because social media was really not a widespread thing. Now we do, and 65 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:16.720 now we have all sorts of people who deponom cells as experts in social media 66 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:26.360 mark so the good news is the the complexity in doing business, especially created 67 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:31.120 by digital technology, means that companies need experts to help them deal with the 68 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:35.000 complexities. So that's the good news. The bad news is it is so 69 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:40.120 easy to find any amount of people who have an opinion or more on any 70 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:45.199 topic, pseudo experts, right. So Google and let's just do that. 71 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:47.839 So, and I haven't done this recently, but if you typed in social 72 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:55.600 media marketing experts and imagine you'd have dozens of search results from Google and and 73 00:05:55.759 --> 00:06:00.439 some good content from some of those search results. So back when I started 74 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:02.399 in thought leadership in one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven, there was no 75 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:08.120 google, there was no web. The way we got our expertise out was 76 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:14.079 through printing publications mail, putting them the mail, giving speeches at conferences. 77 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:17.800 That was a high barrier to entry. You had to pay for publishing, 78 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:20.279 mailing, you had to, you know, have people go out and give 79 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:25.959 speeches. That cost money. So getting your expertise out there was a lot 80 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:30.439 more difficult it is easy today. You write a white paper, you put 81 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:35.480 it on your website and you you know, you do some social media marketing 82 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:39.480 and all of a sudden you have dozens of people reading it. So that 83 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:44.720 makes for a crowded marketplace and just about any domain, any be tob domain, 84 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:48.319 it's crowded marketplace and that in turn raises the Bar, in my mind, 85 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:54.800 of quality. So when we're competing against dozens or hundreds of other people 86 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:58.759 who are trying to show off their expertise, that's a much different game than 87 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:04.800 competing against five or three yep that professed to have deep expertise on some topic. 88 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:10.199 Yeah, you figure out over time as well that how you're going to 89 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:14.959 differentiate. It can be on the depth of which you go, and we'll 90 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:17.639 talk about some of the different sort of categories we need to be hitting on 91 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:23.199 when we think of thought leadership and also think we're watching right now. This 92 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:26.399 happened in BBC and I'm it's happening more in B tob as well, where 93 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:30.879 people are differentiating based on tone of voice, on personality of who the thought 94 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:35.160 leader is as a individual for the company, like as a spokesperson. So 95 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:40.680 you're seeing people get more and more unique in how they present themselves as thought 96 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:45.399 leaders, because we realize the more crowded this gets, some of this content 97 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:50.000 is getting commoditized. But there's still ways to differentiate and to be a deep 98 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:55.759 thought expert in your field, and I that's what's interesting. More voices, 99 00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:00.800 but still so much space for thought leadership. Right. That's right. And 100 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:07.519 the ultimate differentiator is evidence behind the prescriptions that you're voicing in the market place. 101 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:13.240 There's a great example, current example, the metaverse. Is Anybody proved 102 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:18.480 to anybody that companies are making a ton of money off metaverse? If they 103 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:22.759 have, I haven't read about it. I am a't right, but a 104 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:26.439 lot of companies are spelling a lot of spilling, a lot of digital link 105 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:31.319 talking about the metaverse. Microsoft, Goldman, Sachs, all, you name 106 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.279 it, everybody, Mark Zuckerberg. It's like a land rush. Okay, 107 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:39.440 the metaverse, you gotta be you got to be in there. You know, 108 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:43.840 companies got to be in there, got to play. They fought leader 109 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:48.480 or thought leaders on the metaverse, I predict will be the people and organizations 110 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:56.279 that bring forth proof that companies that are doing metaverse like things are getting significant 111 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:01.639 business benefit from doing so. When we start to see those case examples and 112 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:05.440 what those companies did to get those kind of benefits, that I think people 113 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:09.399 like me will listen to them and say, Oh, this really isn't hype, 114 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:13.720 this metaverse. You know, it's it's not something a fad that's going 115 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:20.279 to go away in two years. There really is something there. But until 116 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:24.440 you know, until there's evidence behind the assertions that we all want to make 117 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:28.799 they have this, that what I'm telling you you should do really works. 118 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:33.000 It's just theory. It's you know, no matter how well it's put, 119 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:37.879 it's still theory. I think of it as right now, in this season 120 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:43.919 for a platform like a metaverse, you can have reporters who then can become 121 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:46.039 trusted voices because they're going, oh, this is what's going on in the 122 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:50.159 space. You're reporting on what's happening. You can't report on the facts in 123 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:54.519 a thought leadership, evidence based way yet because there hasn't been enough runway, 124 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:58.879 there hasn't been enough time to collect all the data. But if you can 125 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:01.799 distinguish your voice. Let's say you wanted to be an expert on the metaverse. 126 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:07.600 Become a reporter. Don't say the don't think you're a thought leader yet, 127 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:11.440 because it's impossible to be one. Let's just report on what we're seeing 128 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:16.679 take place and then, Bill, you'll see that you had that interest from 129 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:20.360 the beginning. Five years from now, when you're looking back, you are 130 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:24.279 a trusted voice that built that can then talk on evidence. So that's where 131 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:28.240 I think the space is with the new platforms. But you're totally right. 132 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:33.120 There's a lot of people that talk like a thought leader but don't have thought 133 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:37.159 leader evidence, and that's why they lack authority. So okay, let's talk 134 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:43.919 about that. What are the four elements you believe to a thought leadership strategy? 135 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:50.679 So successful thought leadership requires first having a strategy and that and that really 136 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:56.080 comes down to a company saying what customer problems in the world do we need 137 00:10:56.200 --> 00:11:00.519 to own, and what problems do we not need to own, even though 138 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:03.879 they're related, and we could see us wandering into solving these customer problems. 139 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:07.879 What customer problems in the world do we want to own? So a great 140 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:13.440 example of this is a firm called integrated project management. They've been around since 141 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:18.720 the s. There are, you can tell by the name, a project 142 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.360 management consulting firm. They work with a lot of the large pharmaceutical companies, 143 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:30.240 especially those that have vaccines, for covid in helping their people manage these very 144 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:35.440 complex clinical trials and other aspects of the drug development process. So IPM in 145 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:41.120 a great project management the client problem they solve is when you have a big, 146 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:46.840 very complex project with a lot of moving pieces and you can't have, 147 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:50.759 you know, many or any pieces kind of drop. You need industrial strength 148 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:56.799 project management expertise. Where the one. So IPM. That's the customer problem 149 00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:05.519 that they've owned for thirty years and that's at right. So you can build 150 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:09.600 a very large and lucrative firm based on that. In the book I talked 151 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:13.840 about a firm called urban science and if you remember that passage, it's a 152 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:18.320 firm in Detroit that I think they're roughly thirty years old. The problem that 153 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:24.679 they have owned since day one is helping auto manufacturers make the monumental decision of 154 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:31.799 where do we locate our car dealers? All right, by studying traffic patterns, 155 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.360 population, Democrat and other demographic the like. Where do we put the 156 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:39.960 dealer? Because that's a consequential decision. You put a dealer on a wrong 157 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:46.879 straight and competing dealerships open in much more accessible locations or where there they're more 158 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:50.919 the target customer and that hurts the dealership and that, of course, hurts 159 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:56.919 the auto manufacture. So now they branched out from owning that customer problem to 160 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:05.240 owning some more problems of autom manufactures the dealerships. But still that's what that's 161 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:09.320 the customer problem that they focused on and have stayed rooted on, and the 162 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:13.519 last time I checked they had a thousand people working in this firm, privately 163 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:20.639 held firm focused on largely one customer problem. How do we make the dealers 164 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:24.200 make more money? One customer problem. You go on to say that. 165 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:30.759 Then the second would be how the company will develop exceptional content about solving those 166 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:35.919 core client problems. So you know, a lot of people know the problem 167 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:39.279 that they solved, but many don't go to that second step of saying we're 168 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:45.519 going to create exceptional content. That's right and they often feel that. Well, 169 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:48.879 the the experience we've had in the field, whether it's a law firm, 170 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:52.200 you know our lawyers now to how to defend against class action lawsuits. 171 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:56.840 You know, we or are consultants. They know how to help clients design 172 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:03.799 efficient supply chains. The reason for primary research is to help avoid the scenario 173 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:07.279 of you know what, our expertise is outdated. There's a new consulting firm, 174 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:13.080 new law firm, new accounting firm, new what other firm that is 175 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:16.879 is aimed at the same customer problem that we thought we owned, that we 176 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:22.080 were the the by far the best, but this other firm has solved it 177 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:26.200 better. You know, they brought new thinking to this problem. So this 178 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:31.519 is the reason for primary research, in thought leadership, in studying best practice 179 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:37.519 companies against the rest, especially the worst practice, and understanding why do the 180 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:41.759 best companies solve this problem better than the worst? And this is the kind 181 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:46.159 of research that I saw work many years ago, back in the late s 182 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:52.440 and s that led to the biggest consulting service of the S, which was 183 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:56.679 business engineering. It was that kind of research, studying how the best companies 184 00:14:56.679 --> 00:15:01.080 were managing information technology. What did they do differently than the companies that got 185 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:07.720 little or no payback from information technology? It was that primary research that enabled 186 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.919 the firm I work for, to say the best companies. Here's the way 187 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:16.120 the best companies do it. They rethink business processes across the silos. He's 188 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:22.440 information technology to share information across across silos that hadn't been shared before, which 189 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:28.720 reduces time to market, improves quality, improves effective that thought leadership, that 190 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:35.799 concept was built on the back of primary research and that's the reason that firm 191 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.559 set the world on fire back in the early and mid s with that concept. 192 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:46.519 It did the primary research that led to the big idea and one of 193 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:50.039 the many things that Michael Hammer, who was really in the forefront of working 194 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:54.559 with the firm I worked at. He was the father of re engineering. 195 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:58.559 This is reengineering. Mike was once to asked by a reporter. He said 196 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:02.840 so, Mike, how did YOU INVENT RE engineering? And Mike said I 197 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:10.120 didn't invent reengineering, I discovered it. HMM, those words meant a lot. 198 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:11.879 People Thought, Oh, Mikey, you know he was in a shower 199 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:14.879 one day and he said, oh well, you know, this is what 200 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.320 I only need to do now. That's not what happened. Yeah, there 201 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.480 were the research and I was at an occasional researcher and when they when they 202 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:30.759 needed somebody to help interview companies. That research was Bayed on. I think 203 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:36.399 it was sixty or seventy companies that opened up their doors and talked about how 204 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:41.679 they were using information technology in the late s and and from Mike Rea Hammer 205 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:45.320 and the research team stepping back from these interviews and saying, all right, 206 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:48.519 so the companies that were getting the biggest payback from it, what did they 207 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:52.679 do differently? You know what's going on here, folks. So Mike would 208 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.960 say I invented really, I didn't invent re engineering. I discovered it, 209 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:03.600 and meaning I discovered it by having my research team do these interviews with companies 210 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.200 that told us a whole bunch of things that nobody else would put together. 211 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:11.319 The other large consulting firms at the time, Mackenzie, Boston consulting group, 212 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:15.559 Bain, nobody, certainly the software vendors, had done this kind of customer 213 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:26.880 research and that led to the biggest consulting service segment of the s. It 214 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:32.119 was an almost five billion dollar a year segment by ninety five, according to 215 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:41.799 Gartner. So that when thought leadership research pays off handsomely. Hey B to 216 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:44.839 be gross listeners. We want to hear from you. In fact, we 217 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.720 will pay you for it. Just head over to BDB growth podcom and complete 218 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:52.720 a short survey about the show to enter for a chance to win two hundred 219 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:57.039 and fifty dollars. Plus. The first fifty participants will receive twenty five dollars 220 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:00.640 as our way of saying thank you so much one more time. That's BTB, 221 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:10.200 growth podcom, letter B. Number two, letter be growth podcom. 222 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:14.200 One entry per person. must be an active listener of the show to enter 223 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:23.440 and look forward to hearing from you. That led to the biggest consulting service 224 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:29.319 segment of the s. It was an almost five billion dollar a year segment 225 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:34.759 by ninety five according to Gartner. So that, when thought, leadership, 226 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:41.480 research pays off handsomely. Yeah, so we have these four elements. We 227 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:45.359 talked about the core problem. Then you have how the company will develop the 228 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.039 content. You go to three and four, being how to create demand for 229 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:52.759 the expertise you can provide and then how to ramp up services. That solve 230 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:56.000 those problems. Really, what I want to do, because we have limited 231 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:57.599 time, is focus on those middle two and we've done a bit of that 232 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:03.279 here around developing exceptional content but we'll talk about creating demand for the expertise in 233 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:07.000 a minute. So if we're, as marketers were, on a mission to 234 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:11.440 create that excellent content, I would say, and I've felt this as a 235 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:17.400 marketer, it can feel vague, it can feel kind of undefined and when 236 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:22.559 it pertains to developing thought leadership, there has to be some sort of filter 237 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:26.559 that we run things through. So you've put this bit in a list form 238 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:29.920 and we'll go into it in some detail, but tell me a bit about 239 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:36.160 a filter that you use to define great content. So the filter, you 240 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:41.680 know, the nine criteria or nine hallmarks of great thought leading content, begins 241 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:45.000 with novelty. Are we saying something new here about how to solve the problem? 242 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:48.920 For Not saying something new, why should the audience pay attention? They 243 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:52.319 can go get it somewhere else. Depth, you know, how much of 244 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:56.240 these folks showing us about their understanding of the problem and a better way to 245 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:02.279 solve it? Evidence, the most important of these nine criteria. Do they 246 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:07.039 have proof that the solution actually works and that that is produced sizeable results for 247 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:11.960 companies? Without evidence, you have theory, that's all you have. Relevance, 248 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:15.599 you know, is this an here and now problem? Or is this 249 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.319 a problem that they say we're going to run into in five years but nonetheless 250 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:22.480 we must do something about it? Today it's a much harder thing to make 251 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:26.960 a to to generate demand from thought leadership, from to say Yeah, you 252 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:30.440 folks may not believe this, but in five years you know this is going 253 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:37.880 to happen. Nobody's thinking that Farhad and Rigger, you know, I look 254 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:42.640 at thought leadership as a narrative argument. You know a problem in the world, 255 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:47.480 why existing solutions fall short in solving it, a better a new and 256 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:52.960 better solution that actually works better, obstacles to adopting that new solution and how 257 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:57.279 to overcome them, and then why companies should move now. So so that's 258 00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:03.400 an argument to make. Okay, so the rigger, this notion of rigor, 259 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.359 comes into play. Of Have you made a persuasive argument? Are there 260 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:12.880 pieces of the argument that you have forgotten because you know the argument so well? 261 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:18.079 This is going back to a book called the curse of Knowledge, Hm 262 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:22.920 that knowledge made to stick, in which the concept was the curse of knowledge. 263 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:26.839 Smart people who master a topic know so much about it that when they 264 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:30.240 try to explain it to people, they say let's say there's ten logic points. 265 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:34.640 They say point a, point B, they skip point C and d 266 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:38.000 because they think everybody knows that. Well, not. Not Everybody knows that, 267 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:42.519 and so they you get lost in the argument. So so rigger of 268 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:48.039 argument? Is this a persuasive argument, and part of that is evidence, 269 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:52.519 but have they unfolded this argument in a way for the reader or viewer to 270 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:56.240 get it, to grasp it? Hey, that's rigger. Clarity is a 271 00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:02.319 little different than rigor. Clarity is are you writing or speaking in terminology that 272 00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:07.359 your target audience understands? So I've read that educational level of the Wall Street 273 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:14.559 Journal reader is like eleventh grade. They write eleventh grade readership level. They're 274 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:18.680 not writing to a PhD level, right. And so the most effective thought 275 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:26.519 leaders are those who say things very plainly, speak very clearly and don't spell 276 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:34.200 out acronym after acronym and hi, a concept after high big concept. So 277 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:38.880 that's clarity and and there's some other criteria, but those, those are the, 278 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:45.880 you know, the most important ones, and a good way to after 279 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.960 you've written an article or a presentation, a good thing to do is to 280 00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:52.599 stand back and say, okay, does it make these criteria. Where is 281 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:56.599 it strong? Where could it be improved? How could I improve it? 282 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:00.359 Evidence? All I have is one case example. People believe what I'm trying 283 00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:03.480 to tell them with one case example. Okay, I better get a couple 284 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:07.119 more. All Right, get a couple more. What about the results? 285 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:11.519 You know the improvements in those case examples? Are They big enough? Are 286 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:15.160 there? Are there any results? Improvements supported? Right, Yeh. So 287 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:19.680 it's a way kind of say, how do I know this ship, rocket 288 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:23.559 ship, is going to actually get off the launch pad? Their ways to 289 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:27.279 do that. It helps you get a baseline and then it helps with iteration 290 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:32.079 because you run it back through the filter. Right. It's a purification system 291 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:34.799 over time that then you create momentum off of, and that's why I like 292 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:40.559 thinking through it. I think a lot of us are creating content and when 293 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:44.519 you remove a piece of this, I'll go back to that same phrase because 294 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:48.240 we say it a lot around here and around sweet fish, but commodity content 295 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.960 happens often when you're missing some of this stuff, like you might have just 296 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:56.960 evidence but you haven't presented a point of view. So now you're lacking in 297 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:03.240 a different area, and especially as we see a rise in the Betab space 298 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:06.480 of a need, in a want and a desire for data. Everything, 299 00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:11.319 every conversations about data. If all your company does is present data, you're 300 00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:15.839 actually not differentiating yourself because you're not telling us your opinion about how you read 301 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:18.880 the data. There's no room for you to be a thought leader if all 302 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:25.480 you do is just provide information. So I think these nine are fantastic. 303 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:27.240 Yeah, but most important, with that data, and it means great, 304 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:32.519 you need data and you need a real examples. It's not just quant right, 305 00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:37.799 it's qual. We need stats and stories. Right, that's the evidence. 306 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.680 But as you're as you're appointed to Benjie, we also need to say 307 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.759 we need to wrap those stats and stories around. Here's what we're telling you 308 00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:48.920 you should do. Here's you know, we told you about this problem. 309 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.240 You can decide whether you have the problem, and we're telling you how to 310 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:56.119 solve it. And we have weird stating story, but that's the point of 311 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:00.759 view. Tell me how to solve this problem. Just don't speal out that 312 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.359 facts and stories and not tell me what I should do about it. Tell 313 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:07.200 me what I should do about it. And a lot of companies either don't 314 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:11.119 say okay, if we now not. We don't need to tell them what 315 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:14.240 to do, because if we tell them what to do and a presentation or 316 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:17.319 white paper that they won't hire us. You know, then we're kind of 317 00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:19.960 giving it away. I have want to be denied. You want to tell 318 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:23.000 them what to do, because then you're you set yourself up as the guide. 319 00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:27.160 Correct if it's as easy for them to read your white paper or your 320 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:30.960 book, just read and can get great results and you don't really have much 321 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:37.440 of a business. And it's rarely that easy to just read somebody's book or 322 00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:44.680 read a White Paper and operate at the level of skill that the authors operate 323 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:48.400 that. It's never that. It's never that easy. Okay, so let's 324 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.799 say we've done the work, we've done the research, we create great content, 325 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:56.759 and now what we are needing to do is we're needing to create demand 326 00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:00.960 for the expertise that we provide. Give me an example that comes to mind 327 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:04.559 for you of a person or an organization who has done this truly effectively and 328 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:11.759 correctly. So one great example is a firm we work with in Twenty fifteen 329 00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:18.880 and two thousand and sixteen. It's a pricing strategy consulting firm called Simon Coucher 330 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:23.200 and partners. They're based in Germany. They are the premier experts on pricing 331 00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:27.640 and which we price our product or service at. They came to us. 332 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:34.279 We help them develop a book on pricing strategy, especially for technology products. 333 00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:40.799 The book was called Monetizing Innovation. It's been a best seller. It's been 334 00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:45.400 a piece of thought leadership that they have used that has helped them grow fifty 335 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.839 percent, I think, over five years, two thousand and sixteen to two 336 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:55.000 two thousand and twenty one. And the way it's and the way they brought 337 00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:57.400 that content to market is, in addition to the book and getting a whole 338 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:02.440 lunch bunch of promotion around the book, they run conferences. So they have, 339 00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:04.240 you know, the authors from the book. They've had them appear at 340 00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:08.640 their conferences. I think they were doing forty or fifty conferences around the world 341 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:15.680 before the pandemic. Pr Right, getting reporters to interview the books, excerpts, 342 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:21.119 giving private company presentations. You know, a Linkedin says I would love 343 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:23.680 your book. Can you give a presentation to our executives here? We'd love 344 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:30.160 the book. So the Malt the marketing mix for thought leadership is is multifaceted. 345 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.880 It's not just one thing. Oh, you know, we've mailed at 346 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:38.519 white paper. Were One and done. That's a recipe for failure. It's 347 00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:44.519 it's multiple ways to the market that book. They're still they're still speaking on 348 00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:48.720 the basis of that book six years later. You know, look at monetizing 349 00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:53.000 innovation and and one of the two authors made revenue, John or Gee Org 350 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:59.160 is co author, a Gier, who I think has retired. But they're 351 00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:03.640 still marketing that book six years later. It's still, I imagine, generating 352 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:08.039 business for them. So the marketing mix for thought leadership is, is what 353 00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:11.759 I say in the book, is High Band with low bias as opposed to 354 00:28:14.119 --> 00:28:18.400 low band with high bias. So, you know, high bandwidth means it's 355 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:22.640 marketing channels in which we can impart a lot of information, because we're going 356 00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:26.279 to have to show people how smart we are. So high bandwidth channels are 357 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:33.799 things like white papers, op eds, Harvard business review articles, conference presentations. 358 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:37.599 Okay, Hi band with low band with channels are not nearly as effective 359 00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:41.240 for thought leadership. Low Band withth is we can only impart a little information 360 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:45.960 because in an advertisement of one or two page add you know we're not going 361 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.079 to write a, you know, print a two thousand word article on a 362 00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:53.359 two page you donment or trade show boots. Okay, low band with high 363 00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:59.160 bias and low bias. So low bias is the audience doesn't think you're trying 364 00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:02.319 to sell them anything you they think you're trying to educate them. So this 365 00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:07.319 is the difference between somebody speaking at a conference and somebody operating behind a conference 366 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:14.640 booth. Everything's branded. So high band with low bias. Channels to market 367 00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:18.200 are the best ones for thought. Leadership. Those are different. INATIONAL marketing 368 00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:19.880 channels, right, those are those are different. It's not like putting a 369 00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:26.200 golf at it says jpmg on it or nothing wrong with that, but that's 370 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:30.480 not how you do that. Leadership. Different type of marketing? Yeah, 371 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:33.240 different type of marketing. Not to put that down at all. It's good 372 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:37.680 brand image marketing. Oh, you know, KPMG is is a sponsor of 373 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.720 the masters. They must be a big firm, they must schmove with executives. 374 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:45.640 You know that that's important. Or marathon sponsorship. One of our clients 375 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:51.960 taught a consultancy services as sponsored the major marathons around the world, including the 376 00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:57.039 New York Marathon and the Boston marathon up here where I am. Great brand 377 00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:00.680 image, great brand image, not the leadership, though, but great brand 378 00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:06.359 image. Yeah, that's why I think you're so spot on with saying this 379 00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:11.799 is more about business than it is just about a marketing ploy and I love 380 00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:17.400 that you also explain how you get the message out there as this this ripple 381 00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:21.279 in the pond approach to thought leadership. Right, so you have moving out 382 00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:26.160 from owned to shared, two earned to paid, into this way of thinking 383 00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:30.759 about it. Then I'm like, yeah, ultimately we have this owned property 384 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:33.759 right, and there's a lot of people, I don't want to say this, 385 00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:38.559 I'm not going to just spout out a lot of people because that's not 386 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:44.240 our fact, but you know, there's many out there that have an owned 387 00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:48.759 piece of content that could separate them from the market, but they don't know 388 00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:52.839 how to put it properly out there for them to actually become thought leaders. 389 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:57.759 They've created some piece of content that they hope is attracting people, but once 390 00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:00.880 you get beyond just the owned media, you have to figure out a way 391 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.200 to get that ripple effect happening right. So explain that a little bit. 392 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:07.599 How you move out from just owned to then the ripples that you see in 393 00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:14.480 the pond. So obviously the own platforms are our websites, right, if 394 00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:18.480 we run our own conferences, that kind of thing, the our your email 395 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.799 newsletter, those are important. I'm not we're not advocating against that. We're 396 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:29.480 advocating for those. So the shared content are things like I post on Linkedin, 397 00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:33.799 right, or an issue a tweet, or or I post an article 398 00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:37.559 on mediumcom. So those, those platforms are not yours, but you can 399 00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:42.880 publish easily on them, right, but anybody can publish on them then. 400 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:47.359 So those are important. That will get the message out and get people to 401 00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:51.039 your own content on your website. And we think the place where you got 402 00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:55.519 to wind up getting people to is your website, all right, because then 403 00:31:55.599 --> 00:32:00.319 you begin to control the sales process, right, and what else they can 404 00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:05.440 learn about your company. So the shared shared content is important to get them 405 00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:09.680 to your website and because there are a lot more people typically and linkedin than 406 00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:16.680 are on the typical companies email mailing list. But shared content, the reader 407 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:22.559 knows the difference between getting that same content as a linkedin post and getting that 408 00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:28.400 content in a prestigious publication like am slow management review or a Harvard Business Review 409 00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:37.119 or the oppened section of a newspaper. Those opportunities are earned and those kind 410 00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:42.640 of publications reject more than ninety percent of the unsolicited submissions that they get. 411 00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:45.680 So the reader knows the difference. Like, well, if it's in Harvard 412 00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:49.160 Business Review, it must be very good, because the content read content. 413 00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:52.960 Yeah, it's curated and it's edited heavily often by it people at each of 414 00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:59.880 you are. And so I could run the same article on Linkedin and if 415 00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:02.839 HBRE ran it, and they wouldn't if they have sought on Linkedin. So 416 00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:06.119 you know, we'd all aduse clients to do it, and I don't. 417 00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:08.559 I don't do that. But if I managed to run the same article on 418 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:15.519 my linkedin profile as ran under my name at Hbr, I can guarantee you 419 00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:20.119 the one a hbre would generate a lot more interest, would be seen as 420 00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:23.880 much more credible, much more believable, even though they're the same one hundred 421 00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:28.720 words as what I said on Linkedin, simply because of the credibility of that 422 00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:34.960 platform. So so that's owned media and that is really important, especially as 423 00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:39.079 more and more people are are are putting their content on their website and using 424 00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:45.119 linkedin another shared media. You know what kind of begins to separate the week 425 00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:50.640 from the chaff. Is Are you getting? Are you earning your place in 426 00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:55.039 the venues that your target audience is actually reading and putting stocking? And then 427 00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:59.480 there's the paid media. You know, that's adds, right, Google, 428 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.920 add words, Linkedin ads, twitter ads, facebook ads, etc. That 429 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:07.480 can get too much bigger audiences, but but at the end of the day 430 00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:13.000 their advertisements and so people know that. Yeah, that's a me seems like 431 00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:15.960 the kind of icing on the cake in a sense. When you think about 432 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:20.599 thought leadership, people, you can skip around within this framework. When you're 433 00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:24.559 just thinking of advertising more generally, you jump to paid more quickly if you're 434 00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:30.039 thinking about just ads, but when you're thinking of thought leadership you're not not 435 00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:36.679 really at that ripple until you've created. Those the the first ones that we 436 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:39.079 talked about there. So I love the I'm a very visual person, Bob, 437 00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:42.719 so I like the way that you laid that out. But one other 438 00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.239 rite out about the ripples in the pond is you know, and I say 439 00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:49.559 this in the book, the better the content you have, the bigger the 440 00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.360 rock. You know, to use this metaphor that you're throwing into the more 441 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:57.480 ripples you're creating. Mediocre content is, you know, it's like a small 442 00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:00.159 it's like a small rock. Throw it out there, not a lot of 443 00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:05.440 ripples. As a marketer, the worst things for marketers are to have to 444 00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:12.199 market crappy content. They dread having to do that, and for bosses to 445 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:17.920 expect miracles from crappy content or or mediocre you know, marketers dream is is 446 00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:22.559 to have truly unique and compelling content. You just know, right, we 447 00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:25.280 all know that that's going to get a lot more legs out there, it's 448 00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:28.800 going to get a lot of word them out, a lot of shares, 449 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:34.519 etc. When you nail a piece of content. So the better the content, 450 00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:37.679 the bigger the wrote, the bigger the rock you're throwing into the pond 451 00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:40.239 and the more ripples that are going to emanate from that. Yeah, I 452 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:45.480 think of that because on this show, I know we're in recent weeks, 453 00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:49.679 we've talked a lot about pillar content and when you're taking pillar content into this 454 00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:52.400 thought leadership approach, the way that you could see it similarly, is even 455 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:57.280 if you were just creating this piece of content wants a quarter or twice a 456 00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:00.599 year to begin where you're putting a ton of F it in, but the 457 00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:05.639 amount of content that can come out of that one piece is almost limitless, 458 00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:10.519 like it's worth the extra effort to have this cohesive piece of content you've created 459 00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:15.800 that. Then other videos can come out of other topics for your blog can 460 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:20.960 come out of other but you're really really working to make that rock as big 461 00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:27.000 as possible so that the ripples really are endless. We got to take guys, 462 00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:29.920 start to wrap this thing up. This's been a fascinating conversation, but 463 00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:32.760 I want to I want to go back to basically where we were at the 464 00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:37.840 beginning, this idea that this has to be a business strategy and not just 465 00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:42.480 a peace in the marketing plan. So when we're thinking of implementation from the 466 00:36:42.519 --> 00:36:45.800 top levels on down, I wonder, Bob, what would you leave us 467 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:49.320 with is you think about what this should look like? What are the high 468 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:53.239 level conversations or the structures that have to be in place first for us to 469 00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:59.559 really be competing on thought leadership? That's a fantastic question, because there are 470 00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:05.360 a lot of people in big firms there their head of thought leadership, researcher, 471 00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:09.039 the cheap marketing officer and they will come to us and they say we 472 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:13.239 don't have a big enough budget to do what we want. Most of the 473 00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:17.639 top management team has a skeptical view on thought leadership. You know, if 474 00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:21.480 it works then they'll give us more, but they're not sure they should be 475 00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:23.199 doing it in the first place. That you know, yeah, we're doing 476 00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:28.280 it because so and soap competitors doing it and so it's an expense that has 477 00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:31.480 to be minimized. That's that's to you at the top. So if I'm 478 00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:37.280 that head of thought leadership, research and or chief marketing officer, the best 479 00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:40.079 way I have found to get the folks at the top to actually take a 480 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:45.239 leap of faith and their minds to believe that thought leadership something they need to 481 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:52.159 do get a lot more serious about, is to set up conversations with key 482 00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:59.559 clients or firms that could be clients, who executives in these firms who love 483 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:04.920 good thought leadership content. Introduce those folks, half a dozen, if you 484 00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:08.800 could get them at a focus group with your top management team and tell your 485 00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:14.159 top management team to just listen. Why these people? And you're going to 486 00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:17.239 have to select these people make sure that they are in fact advocates that they 487 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:22.079 are big consumers of fout leadership. Have have your your clients talk about why 488 00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:28.119 this is so important in the way they do things. I think nothing will. 489 00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:32.159 Nothing in our that many CMOS will say or heads of thought leadership research 490 00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:37.360 will say to the bosses will count nearly as much, or at account nearly 491 00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:43.920 as much as what big clients say. And the hope would be once a 492 00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:47.280 leadership team says, you know, the six clients that were in this room 493 00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:52.840 represent thirty percent of our revenue, now we get a much better idea, 494 00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:58.880 we have a much better idea of why thought leadership matters to them. Then 495 00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:01.559 the lightbulbs go on and they say, Gosh, we got to fund this 496 00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:06.960 thing. You know, we're starving you guys of funds. We got it. 497 00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:09.239 Now. If clients say it's important, it's got to be important for 498 00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:14.639 us. Yep, snowball effect from there. Well, we want people to 499 00:39:14.679 --> 00:39:17.159 go get the book. It's called competing on thought leadership. Encourage everyone to 500 00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:20.840 go grab it. Bob, for people that want to connect with you, 501 00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:24.519 what's the best way for them to do that? Sure want is to look 502 00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:30.880 at our website, which is Boudet tlpcom or they can email me at Bob 503 00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:37.960 at Boudet tlpcom. Well, thanks to everyone who has taken time to listen 504 00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:42.519 to this episode. I know it's extremely insightful. It's one that will continue 505 00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:46.199 to help us as we are creating content, as we're thinking about the type 506 00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:51.719 of work that we're doing, and so love this. If you have not 507 00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:54.079 followed the show yet, be sure to do that on whatever platform you're listening 508 00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:58.400 too this on. I'd love to connect with you here from you. You 509 00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:01.199 can do that on Linkedin. Just Search Benjie Block. Bob One more time. 510 00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:05.760 Thanks for being here man. Thank you, Magie. Great Conversation. 511 00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:22.760 Will be back real soon with another episode. We're always excited to have conversations 512 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:25.480 with leaders on the front lines of marketing. If there's a marketing director or 513 00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:29.719 a chief marketing officer that you think we need to have on the show, 514 00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:34.639 we're reach out. Email me, Beng dot block at Sweet Fish Mediacom. 515 00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:36.000 I look forward to hearing from you.