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Aug. 5, 2022

Brand vs Branding - The Debate with Sam Moss & Dan Sanchez

In this replay episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Sam Moss, the co-founder of 1Click Agency about the difference between brand, branding, and what it takes to see success.
Sam Moss takes the position that branding includes creating the logo, website,...

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B2B Growth
In this replay episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Sam Moss, the co-founder of 1Click Agency about the difference between brand, branding, and what it takes to see success.
Sam Moss takes the position that branding includes creating the logo, website, colors, and swag. Dan Sanchez takes the position that branding is identifying beliefs that make you weird, messaging, rituals, a villain, and a leader.
Listen to them talk it through, share their truths, and unpack the fuzzy topic that is branding.
Connect with Sam:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam1ca/
sam@1clickagency.com
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:03.960 Today on B two B growth, we are sharing a featured conversation from our 2 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:08.880 archive, with over two thousand episodes released. We want to resurface episodes worth 3 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:12.400 another listen. Before we jump in, I just want to say I would 4 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:15.519 love to connect and hear from you on Linkedin. You can search Benji walk 5 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:18.640 over there and that's a great place to also interact with sweet fish and B 6 00:00:18.679 --> 00:00:32.719 two B growth. All right, let's jump into today's featured conversation, conversations 7 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:39.799 from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. Welcome 8 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:43.280 back to BDB growth. I'm Dan Sanchez with sweet fish media, and today 9 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:47.560 I'm here with Sam Moss, who is the CO founder of one Click Agency. 10 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:50.880 Sam, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks, man, a 11 00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:54.759 long time listener. I think I met James probably like a year and a 12 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:57.920 half ago. We had him on our podcast and have been following you guys 13 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:00.479 ever since. So I appreciate you guys reaching out to at me on the 14 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:03.879 school. That's awesome. It's always good to have listeners on the show. 15 00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:08.599 But you posted something on Linkedin that got me thinking and I'm like, Oh, 16 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:12.519 I need to have sam onto the show because I have a different point 17 00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:15.879 of view and I love to have people on the show where we have just 18 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:19.400 like different points of view on a topic, to have a I guess you 19 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:23.319 could call it a debate. It's more like a friendly conversation. Almost always 20 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:25.840 it ends up somewhere in the middle, but I like to have it on 21 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:27.719 anyway because it challenges me as a marketer to talk to people who have a 22 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:33.439 different perspective on topics, and today that topic is around brand and branding. 23 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:38.000 You posted on Linkedin like branding is these things. Brand are these things. 24 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:41.799 And before we go into the graphics, Sam, I'd love to kick it 25 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:44.239 off. What kind of like? What is a brand like? Just start 26 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:47.799 real broad for the audience. What what do you consider a brand, and 27 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:52.840 then we can jump into the difference between brand and branding. Yeah, I 28 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:55.680 would, I guess if I were to sum it up into a sentence, 29 00:01:56.079 --> 00:02:00.480 I would say that brand is the emotional connection that you have with your buyers. 30 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:04.400 So it's what they think of you and how they think of you and 31 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:08.240 how they feel when they hear your name or come across a post on social 32 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:12.960 media or whatever it may be. I'd say that sounds about right to me. 33 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:15.599 It's always it's a little bit more than reputation, right, because reputation 34 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:19.400 has like a personal thing to it. It's kind of like, oh, 35 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.800 he has a reputation of this, you know, and it could be good, 36 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:24.919 it could be bad. It's a few words. It's usually like Oh, 37 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:30.840 yeah, she's got a reputation of being being super friendly, right, 38 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:32.599 and a brand is a little bit more. Again, I like how you 39 00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:38.120 add the word emotional to it so well. Reputation plays apart, for sure. 40 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:40.080 I would say that that I mean whether good or bad. But yeah, 41 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:45.039 there is way more to it and I think that the reputation comes alongside 42 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:49.520 a lot of other things. But reputation plays into the emotional connection you have, 43 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:53.039 because if you have a bad reputation, then what happens when they think 44 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:57.639 of you? It's going to be a not good emotional feeling, like like 45 00:02:57.680 --> 00:02:59.759 why would I want to do business for them? Because of the x? 46 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:02.039 So that's how I would look at it. And on one side of the 47 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:07.439 graphic we have all the activities labeled or associated with brand, one of which 48 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:10.000 is the reputation of your company. What are some of the other ones? 49 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:15.879 You have graphic? So I had the reputation. I have what people externally 50 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:19.360 think of you, like I just mentioned, like in conversation, what goes 51 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:23.319 through their mind when they hear about you outside the context of business, how 52 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:29.240 you treat your customers, the community that you've built among your buyers. A 53 00:03:29.240 --> 00:03:32.080 lot of companies are starting to do this and it's a community and brand built 54 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:36.240 around them. And the graphic was actually too small to fit another one, 55 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:38.439 but I think a really, really important one that I would have. It's 56 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:40.840 like should have probably been on there. But the culture that you internally have 57 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:45.199 as a team. I think that goes a long way when it comes to 58 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:49.520 brand, because I think of some companies because of their culture and not because 59 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:52.439 of even their product necessarily. I think, wow, that looks like such 60 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.840 an attractive company because of how they treat their their employees. So that's that's 61 00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:00.800 on the brand side of the graphic and I think it just is like a 62 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:04.719 greater depth of the outside culture. You know, it's the outside culture is 63 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:08.400 good, when the inside culture is kind of like, I don't know, 64 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:12.080 when it's radiating out from the center rather than it just being a facade your 65 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:15.639 agency came up with right, when it's coming from the inside. Now everything 66 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:19.199 you put in the brand is generally what I agree with on what a brand 67 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:24.160 is. Branding, on the other hand, is is, in my opinion, 68 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:27.319 how you get to a brand. But what you had on your list 69 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.240 is very different from what I had on my list. So tell us first 70 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:32.439 what you had on your list and then I'll share what we had on what 71 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:36.480 I would put on my list and then we'll kind of compare notes. Yeah, 72 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:40.839 so I would consider this is and honestly, we might simply just be 73 00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:43.639 having a play on words. So I'm curious to hear that your side of 74 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:46.319 this argument in a way. So I would consider branding to be the visual 75 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:50.839 aspect of your company, right, so I had on my list your logo, 76 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:57.720 your website, the colors you use, the fonts, style that you 77 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:01.319 have even done, trendy s wag and then cool graphics that you post, 78 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:05.360 like. Those are all things that I feel are visual and therefore they don't 79 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:10.360 necessarily fall into the brand category, but they're in the branding side and I 80 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.279 feel like they needed a name because a lot of people will say, yeah, 81 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:15.199 we're working on branding and then they go out and they try to build 82 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:18.600 a community and I'm like, I think branding is something else. So that's 83 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:21.040 how I would define it and I'm curious to hear what you think about that. 84 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:26.000 So and again there's there's definitions in terms floating around here and we might 85 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:30.480 just organize them differently. But to me the brand is the outcome, right. 86 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:34.680 The branding is all the work you do to achieve the outcome, to 87 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:39.680 achieve the reputation you want, how to get people to think about you in 88 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:42.959 the way you would want them to think about you, all those things, 89 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.439 and to me branding is more I'd say the visuals and everything you put is 90 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:49.959 a small portion. I'd almost put it like an iceberg. You're talking about 91 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.639 the things that are the tip of the iceberg. The logo, the website, 92 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:58.839 the colors and the visuals, specifically the videos, is all the tip 93 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:02.839 of the iceberg and I think that's where a lot of people start and that's 94 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.600 and sometimes if you start with those things, you end up with very shallow 95 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:11.759 brands. Right high it has all of those things, Hyatt hotels, but 96 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.240 no one really thinks of high it being a great brand. So when I 97 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:18.959 think of branding, I think of things that are like your beliefs. What 98 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:24.480 are your beliefs that make you weird right. What are the beliefs and things 99 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:27.759 that you know are true and the things that you believe about the world, 100 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:30.759 the things that you believe about how to treat customers and things that you believe 101 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:33.600 should always be true about the product or never true about the product? What 102 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:40.519 are the beliefs about your brand that are just different and it's not a value 103 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:44.560 proposition. Beliefs aren't a positioning statement, though I think your position, of 104 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.120 course, in your market and your mission should all play into those beliefs. 105 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:50.399 Sometimes your core values are in your beliefs, right. You talked about it 106 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:54.439 being internal. So I almost start like at the very center, at all 107 00:06:54.519 --> 00:07:00.160 his beliefs, and then from those beliefs come a message about how you it's 108 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:03.319 almost like the words smithing of the beliefs. It could that's where your slogans 109 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:09.079 come from, that's where your your phrases, your thought leadership, your names. 110 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:14.000 Like Chris Walker talks about the dark funnel. That would be messaging, 111 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:18.120 right. That comes from the beliefs that messages spread through places where you can't 112 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.639 track and the best ones do. Right. From there, I add like 113 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:27.319 a shared enemy, antibelievers. Some people call it the villain. I almost 114 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.720 feel like a good branding work is actually defining who you stand against, and 115 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:34.879 it's not necessarily a competitor. It could be like a way of doing things 116 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:40.040 like sweet fish. We hate boring stuff, right. That could be a 117 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:42.839 villain. We're actually no, we're coming up with commodity content. Is kind 118 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.759 of something we've been playing around as a villain we are. That is our 119 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:49.959 villain that we're attacking and standing up against. I also think rituals play a 120 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:54.680 role into it. So that's to think like you know, Dave Ramsey's a 121 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:58.560 brand that has a ritual. If you're familiar with Dave Ramsey and his radio 122 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:01.360 show, he has people come in to do the debt free scream. That 123 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:05.600 is a ritual that everybody in his brand knows about and some have part taken 124 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.920 and they have traveled to the place and a pilgrimage to Dave Ramsey's, you 125 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.600 know, studio and done the debt free scream live. That is a ritual 126 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:16.680 in his brand. And then on top of the iceberg are the icons. 127 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:20.199 Essentially all the branding work. I think about that, you've said, are 128 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.519 like the tip of the iceberg. After you've done all those other things, 129 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.120 then you have something to really it's like that. All the visual work and 130 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.399 have teeth to it because it has substance to it from all the beliefs and 131 00:08:31.440 --> 00:08:35.600 messaging and the villain the rituals, maybe a leader. So when I think 132 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:39.720 of branding, I think about all those things, defining all those things before 133 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:43.399 you get to the visuals. Now, how does that hit you? Does 134 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:46.919 that come across as like yes, those are good things, but or do 135 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:52.039 you define it differently? Honestly, I'm almost like I feel like there should 136 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:56.279 be a third section to this, like if the graphic right has this line 137 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:58.000 down the middle branding versus brand, and I feel like a lot of the 138 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:05.000 things you described are a combination of narrative and positioning. Would you agree with 139 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:09.559 that? No, I'd say they're they're different. Actually, I play around 140 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:11.440 with this kind of stuff all the time and I have a little bit of 141 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:15.679 a tool that I've been using called the brand sandbox, and I feel like 142 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:20.759 the strategic narrative is upper level, like you can have a strong strategic narrative 143 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:24.919 and the beliefs play into it. But let's let's look at like Chris Walker, 144 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:26.679 since he has a pretty well fleshed out brand and most of the audience 145 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:33.080 is familiar with him, like he has a lot of beliefs that don't that 146 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:39.679 don't include his his origin story. Right, his strategic narrative was like or 147 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:43.200 at least his origin stories. I was an engineer and then I started troubleshooting 148 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.639 things down the line into product and then I started talking to the customers and 149 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:48.240 realized they didn't want it, and then I started going to the marketing and 150 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:50.559 sales team and I'm like wait, why are we talking to all these people 151 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:54.600 who don't want the thing? Right? Why is this process broken? Then 152 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:58.639 he realized the legion, Essentially Legion, and the way we do marketing attribution 153 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:03.799 was all broken and really we just needed to go out and that sound kind 154 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:05.559 of butchering, as mentioned now, but we need to go out and develop, 155 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.600 do demand gin by getting our thought leadership in front of them, by 156 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:15.240 leading them and creating demand before they even are looking for it so that you 157 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:18.039 can win the deal away before they actually need the thing. Right. His 158 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.480 Villain is certainly is like marketing attribution and M Q ls, but I think 159 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:28.519 his positioning as a demand as the leader in demandsion and his origin story or 160 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.080 separate from the beliefs, but they informed the beliefs, like a in a 161 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:37.639 position. To me, positioning is so critical to marketing that it's like it's 162 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:41.559 not it's beyond marketing. It's really organizational strategy at that point, right, 163 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:45.279 you have your like company strategy, and then not long after it's positioning, 164 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:48.600 and I think positioning so critical that it's it shouldn't be the marketing team that 165 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:52.000 decides. It has to be at the like C suite level. So you're 166 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:56.519 saying it's like beliefs, which go even before the two things that you just 167 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:58.919 mentioned, right, because that's what builds into the branding. So it starts 168 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:03.720 with, you said, like your beliefs as a company, your core values, 169 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:07.840 and that's like the foundation. That's what you say builds into brand because 170 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:11.080 that's what you would consider branding and getting it right. Yeah, I think 171 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:15.840 beliefs. Once you have your beliefs, the things that you believe to be 172 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:20.840 true, that should impact your messaging. Your messaging, we'll probably incorporate some 173 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:24.360 kind of villain, maybe rituals. Is another thing that doesn't that's not super 174 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:28.679 related to messaging, but all those things add up to what I call your 175 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:31.399 icons. And actually I get a lot of this from a book called primal 176 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.480 branding, though I've modified it, but he calls it a creed and I'm 177 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:39.879 like it just beliefs are fine, like I've modified it a bit because I'm 178 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:43.080 not in line with his book, but a lot of the ideas around, 179 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:46.279 like having a shared enemy, or he calls it the anti believers, having 180 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:50.720 rituals, comes from that book. kind of open my eyes to like how 181 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:52.480 do you build a good brand? Is? It's got to be more than 182 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:56.600 a logo, because lots of companies have logos and don't have good brands. 183 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:01.360 So what makes a good moment? Right, it's kind of the stuff underneath, 184 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:03.879 and that's where I go into like the brand side of it, because 185 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:07.159 I think a lot of people and I think marketers are coming around to it 186 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:11.320 where they believe that the logo, you know in the past has been this 187 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:16.159 brand icon and that's why you buy. But the more you dig into it, 188 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:18.159 like you don't buy a Mercedes because it has the cool logo, you 189 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:22.600 buy a Mercedes because of the luxury feel and you know how you look to 190 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:26.000 your friends, etcetera. Right. So I guess if I were to look 191 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:30.360 at it, I guess your argument is branding leads to brand and the more 192 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:33.200 that we kind of talk about it, like if you have good branding, 193 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:37.879 so your your message, your beliefs, the villain that you're going after and 194 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.080 even the visual aspects, eventually you're going to build into a solid brand. 195 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:43.799 Is that what you're saying? Yes, and I think you can actually do 196 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:50.519 it without the logo and the websites. Hence I doe, like the hence 197 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:52.559 brands have existed for a long time, like the original one I'm thinking of, 198 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:56.759 I'm reading his biography right now, is that Josiah Wedgwood, who is 199 00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:58.720 like the O g marketer that no one has ever heard of. Usually. 200 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:03.720 He was a potter and so he got mad one day when someone's like, 201 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.159 Oh, is this one of your pots, and he picked up a competitor's 202 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:09.759 pot. He's like, Oh, this is a wedgewood pot, and he's 203 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:15.559 like what, how could you not tell the difference without looking under the pot 204 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:18.960 to find the name? He's like, uh, something's different. So he 205 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:24.320 started differentiating all his products and really started developing a much broader brand name for 206 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:26.720 his wood style. He also did a lot of other things that kind of 207 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:33.000 kicked off the age of modern marketing. But one of them was branding, 208 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:37.639 because he wanted his stuff to be different and people would seek out his stuff. 209 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:39.759 He's like no, I want I don't want a normal pot, I 210 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:43.600 want a Wedgewood Pot. But that was way before logos were a thing, 211 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:48.240 way before websites were a thing and all the other visual identity pieces were a 212 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:50.679 thing. So I have a question for you. then. Let's say that 213 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:56.320 we are saying we're gonna work on branding. As a marketer right, we 214 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:00.559 can't, as marketers, go back to ground zero to ide if I the 215 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.080 villain, if we already have it and if we already have the messaging that 216 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.919 was put in place by the founder or the board of the CEO or whatever 217 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:11.279 it is. So like, wouldn't that almost make a third category for marketers, 218 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:15.240 which is the visual aspects that they want to go work on to help 219 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:18.559 create an identifier for the brand that they're building and the reputation that they have? 220 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:26.000 Hey, everybody logan with sweet fish here. If you're a regular listener 221 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.759 of B two B growth, you know that I'm one of the CO hosts 222 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:31.759 of this show, but you may not know that I also head up the 223 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:35.360 sales team here at sweet fish. So for those of you in sales or 224 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:37.919 sales ops. I wanted to take a second to share something that's made us 225 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:43.279 insanely more efficient late. Our team has been using lead I q for the 226 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:46.960 past few months and what used to take us four hours gathering contact data now 227 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.120 takes us only one. Were more efficient. We're able to move faster with 228 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:58.919 outbound prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before. I'd highly 229 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:01.240 suggest you guys check out lead I Q as well. You can check them 230 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:05.879 out at lead I Q dot Com. That's l e a d I q 231 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:13.080 dot Com. All right, let's get back to the show. I think 232 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:18.679 if you want to like usually you're doing branding work. Well, hardly ever 233 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:22.840 do launch a company with all the branding work already done. It has to 234 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:26.639 be done as you go right, because even the position of the company, 235 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:31.720 especially if the company is changing every six months, every or as as often 236 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.080 as six months. If you're fast growing and you're accelerating right, things change 237 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:39.480 fast, which means your brand is changing fast, right. So hardly ever 238 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:43.279 is a branding expert stepping into a company that's starting from Ground Zero. It's 239 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:46.399 almost always got pieces in play. Some of the pieces are good, some 240 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:48.600 of them are not, and that's where you need to assess what's good. 241 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.519 They might already have some of the things down. The messaging might be bland, 242 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:56.519 but Dang they have this awesome ritual they go through. We're going to 243 00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:00.039 keep that. People remember that or um like some of the things sweet fish 244 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:04.320 is known for is personal brands. Right, if you're on Linkedin, you 245 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:08.639 bumped into sweet fish. You know we're all about personal brands because we believe 246 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:15.600 like this reflects a belief about personal being better than personalized. That's a sweet 247 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:21.039 fish belief, but that's like it's like it's like a reflection of the belief. 248 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:22.360 So that would be something I'd put in there so you can actually already 249 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:26.720 assess it and be like what beliefs are already in play, what messaging is 250 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:29.720 already in play that's good and what's missing? Maybe we don't have a villain, 251 00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:32.919 maybe the messaging sucks, but the beliefs are good when I hear the 252 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:37.039 founder talk, and we just need to actually articulate them in better messaging because 253 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:41.399 internally they're using this language that's awesome and it's really stacked on good beliefs. 254 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:45.440 We just haven't put it in marketing yet. You might be something farther down, 255 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.759 farther downstream to like the positioning might be broken. Even though they've got 256 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:52.320 a strong brand, no one can exactly remember what they do. Right. 257 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.919 Everybody likes the brand, but nobody knows exactly why to buy from them. 258 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.240 So that could be there could be problems down dream too, like you don't 259 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.119 have a good story for why. That's something we're wrestling with. The sweet 260 00:17:03.119 --> 00:17:07.880 fish, right, we don't know. Why do we do what we do 261 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.799 in a way that is not hey, we want to earn more money, 262 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:15.960 because that's never a good why. Right. So there's no people story or 263 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:18.799 and we're still working even on the mission, like what are we trying to 264 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.319 build a community around to achieve together? We have some ideas we're kicking around, 265 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:26.240 but I'd say that stuff is all sorry, not downstream. Up continually 266 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.359 eat all the brand though. Yeah, so I guess, honestly, one 267 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:32.799 of the reasons that I was just like, I feel like we need just 268 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:37.279 a visual representation of branded branding is because I see so many posts from bigger 269 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:41.039 name B two B marketers that are like here's what brand is, right, 270 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:45.079 and of course they list reputation and I didn't like straight up copy what they 271 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.119 said, but I had some ideas of my own. Right. And then 272 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:49.400 they say it's not your logo on your website. So I sat to myself 273 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:52.160 I'm like, well, what is your logo and website? And maybe it's 274 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:56.240 really not branding, maybe it needs a category of its own or like it's 275 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:59.200 a tip of an iceberg, like you mentioned, of branding. But I 276 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:02.680 think one of the reasons that I was like, we need to identify, 277 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:06.920 like what since? If if this isn't brand then what is it? That 278 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:11.000 was almost my thought process behind creating like this graphic with a line down the 279 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:12.680 middle. And again, I mean if it if it needs another name. 280 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:15.400 You know I'm not always attached to branding, but it sounds like you're just 281 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:19.519 expanding on well, branding is more than the visual aspects. It goes deeper 282 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:25.160 into like the company origin story, and it works this way back all the 283 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:29.039 way from the image all the way back to that's what you're saying. Yeah, 284 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.519 of course you can have a pretty strong brand to be missing some critical 285 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:36.079 elements, but the more elements are missing, the harder it gets, which 286 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:41.200 is why you have brands like Hyatt, where you could literally just or brands 287 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:44.000 like, I don't know, Hyatt, sketchers to some degree, you know, 288 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:45.759 like these brands are just kind of like, uh, no one really 289 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.640 resonates with sketchers, you know, maybe they saw it in the store. 290 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:52.680 Maybe. I'm sure they're big enough brand that they probably have some followers. 291 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:55.799 Hi. It's my favorite to pick on, though, because I think everyone, 292 00:18:56.039 --> 00:19:00.240 no, no one's like. I Love Hyatt Hotels. That's my thing. 293 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.920 You're like, most hotels are like that. In particular is it's a 294 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:08.599 huge, huge brand. No one really cares about them. So they've done 295 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:12.720 everything right, they've hired very expensive agencies to come up with visual identities, 296 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:17.799 but they don't have any interest and it only goes so far. Yeah, 297 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:21.200 yeah, the thing is the visual side really only goes so far and like 298 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:22.960 you mentioned, and I actually do agree with this, is you could have 299 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:30.000 the brand side and do well as a company and have mediocre to Subpar, 300 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:34.319 I'm what I would label branding right, uh, logo, website, colors, 301 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:38.640 swag, cool graphics, because people will remember you for the brand side 302 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:44.680 more so than the visual aspects of your marketing, which, as you continue 303 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:47.680 to grow, of course, you need to op that, because if you 304 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:52.759 think about McDonald's Coke Apple, like, of course the visual representation is there 305 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.319 and you do start to remember it, but when I think of sweet fish, 306 00:19:56.599 --> 00:19:59.799 I don't think of the logo or even your website. Like if I 307 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:02.440 about it, of course I can remember it, but immediately the thing I 308 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:07.359 think about is wow, from the start james has created in it incredible culture 309 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.720 with the employees like you, uh Logan, and anyone else that's at sweet 310 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.200 fish right and that's something I immediately remember about you guys, and that's where 311 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:21.519 I'm just like, I totally agree where brand carries the weight way more than 312 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:25.079 what I would label branding, which is the visual aspects. I think the 313 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:27.440 thing we get stuck on is, like what is the work that you have 314 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:32.240 to do in order to get the outcome of having a strong brand? So 315 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:36.960 sweet fish has a fairly strong brand, but what's the work that went into 316 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:41.200 doing it? It's almost like James did it on accident, like he of 317 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.160 course he did a lot of stuff, but like there's some things that he 318 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:48.079 does just as a person, habits that he has that could be a part 319 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:52.480 of it, though, is simply they james attracts the right people because of 320 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:55.960 who he is, and that can be a brand in itself. For example, 321 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:57.480 Chris Walker is a cool guy. I'm sure there are people that consume 322 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:00.920 his content and say, I like Chris, I want to work with Chris, 323 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:06.480 and that could impact, like trickle down to the brand and eventually like 324 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:11.039 explode into something bigger if you're creating like the same culture that you're portraying through 325 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:15.720 your personal profile or just life in general. Right, YEP, and that's 326 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:19.559 why in the book primal branding he would say every strong, really strong brand 327 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:23.759 as a leader. Right, you think of virgin you can't not think of 328 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:32.519 their leader. You cannot think of Richard Branson. Right, you think of 329 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:37.400 rights. It's yeah, there's usually a leader associated with the strong brand. 330 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:40.160 Not Always, though, because, like you think of southwest, is a 331 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:41.880 fairly strong brand, there's no leader behind it, at least that I can 332 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.720 think of. Spent time thinking about them, so I'm like, I don't 333 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:48.000 know what their leader is. But there are other aspects that impact the brand, 334 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:52.200 like what you said about James as. He almost did it on accident. 335 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:55.839 If that's the case, that's awesome, but it's probably because of his 336 00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.480 integrity, his personality, him as a person, right, and then you 337 00:21:59.559 --> 00:22:03.839 get to sell West. There's obviously some other things in the brand category. 338 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:07.240 Maybe it's a reputation, the experience, how they treat their customers. That's 339 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:12.759 like the thing that drives the brand forward more so than like the origin, 340 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:17.480 not the origin story, but like the founder and the personality he has, 341 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:21.160 like you guys like that sweet fish. Right. I think it's easier if 342 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:23.799 you have a founder that has a lot, has a strong personal brand or 343 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:29.400 a strong beliefs and viewpoints that has. Like when he has a strong point 344 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:33.160 of view, that especially in a startup where your it's all flowing from that 345 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:37.599 founder, then that creates a strong brand really easily. Unless it grew it 346 00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:40.319 was so fast that it outgrows the founder, which has happened right. You 347 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:44.559 know Tony Hish with a Zappos, talked about it in his biography where he 348 00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.720 his company grew so fast that they hired so quickly he couldn't instill his personal 349 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.680 values into the company, unlike Zappos, where he took his time. But 350 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:55.839 I still think you can do it without you just have to be more intentional 351 00:22:56.039 --> 00:23:00.279 and think about like what are the beliefs that we have as a leader ship 352 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.319 team or as an organ or what? What do we want to believe in? 353 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:07.559 Like, what can we believe that makes us weird? I actually think 354 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:11.960 the word weird is key. Yeah, that's a good one. I don't 355 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:17.440 know if anything comes to mind for what we do. I think I don't 356 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:19.039 know that weird is a good question where I'll actually have to think about it, 357 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:22.920 because that is a fun way to do it and really like what does 358 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:26.319 make us different and somewhat weird to others? That's that is interesting like that, 359 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:30.839 and I think that's we're thinking about. Like your anti believers, and 360 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.440 I don't think your Anti Believers are necessarily the people that buy into your competitor, 361 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.240 but it could be if your competitor stands for a totally different way of 362 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:41.559 doing things, and then I wouldn't make the enemy your your competitor. I 363 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:47.559 make it that way of that approaches the enemy right. For Chris Walker, 364 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:53.759 it's Legion in general. People who are big into Legion and Hubspot and tracking 365 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:59.519 to the nth degree with analytics and data and driving lots of m q else 366 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:03.839 those are the anti believers of which I find myself somewhere in the middle for 367 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:07.279 his camp. I'm not like it's like it's not Gospel to me. I'm 368 00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:11.319 like I could still win with the CEO. Yeah, yeah, I'm like 369 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.200 on the middle, but there's definitely, man, there's a whole crew that 370 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:19.799 are like champion that message now and that those beliefs um it's like part of 371 00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:25.640 them. So I think thinking about what beliefs you have that make you weird 372 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:27.359 as and there's going to be some people that think you're really weird for it, 373 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:30.440 but you and the other people that disagree you are like yes, no, 374 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:34.519 this is the truth, this is the thing. Yeah, I agree 375 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.880 and uh, I think that's something that we're going through right now. Is 376 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:41.400 I mean, I guess I would be positioning or narrative or whatever, just 377 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.440 coming up with like what is it that you're against and what is it that 378 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.839 you're known for, because I think that's something that we've lacked and it's like 379 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.599 definitely our focus that we're, you know, playing around with right now some 380 00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:55.920 ideas and bouncing around. But I'm gonna have to steal though, what makes 381 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.400 us weird. That's gonna be something that we certainly think about. Yeah, 382 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:03.680 and I honestly, you could probably look to your positioning for cues on that, 383 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:06.559 right. I don't know. It probably doesn't tell you everything. Like 384 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:10.279 we're a B two B podcast agency. That's sweet fishes positioning. But we 385 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:14.759 all know that B two B s usually kind of boring. I know it's 386 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:19.039 it's it's in fashion right now to make B two be fun, but hardly 387 00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:25.880 anybody's doing it. Everybody's talking about you guys are all talking about it, 388 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:30.559 but we haven't actually liked done it yet. You have very few companies are 389 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:33.839 pushing the envelope on fun and B two B um sweet fish. So that's 390 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:37.039 what we're trying to do, is trying to bring that back. Hence our 391 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:41.000 our villain that we've been forming is commodity content. I like it. I 392 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.519 like it, so now I have to go and work some messaging around it. 393 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:48.839 And Uh, I think James has been working on some stuff like bye 394 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:55.680 bye boring content or something as a Hashtag he's been using by that would that 395 00:25:55.720 --> 00:26:00.880 would be that would be an extension of the belief that commodity that's bad. 396 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:06.319 And then moved to language or messaging right, which is going to be by 397 00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:10.720 by commodity, by by boring content. I think one of the best ways 398 00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:15.799 I've seen this going on is I see some B Two b brands tooling around 399 00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:19.000 with the world of like Tiktok or even instagram reels, and I think that's 400 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:23.240 just a fun way to connect with your buyers. And again this goes back 401 00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:26.240 to like your brand, like how does how does your brand make you your 402 00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.400 your buyers feel when they see you right and I've even seen this is funny 403 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:33.640 because I wouldn't think of them as like a funny brand, but refined labs 404 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:38.200 has a Tiktok now that they've gotten like some videos on, and it's I'm 405 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:41.119 like pretty picky when it comes to content that makes me laugh, like if 406 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:44.359 it's stupid, I'm not gonna Laugh, but they actually had a couple of 407 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:47.759 videos that I was like chuckling at. So I see they're kind of doing 408 00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.160 the same thing. I think Gong I didn't see their their page. I 409 00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:52.880 just started following the other day, but they have some videos there. I 410 00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:57.279 think Chili Piper might be another one, but it's whatever we've seen in B 411 00:26:57.319 --> 00:27:02.039 two C for the past x amount of years. Give it two or three 412 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:04.359 years and the same thing is gonna start happening in B two B. So 413 00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.079 it's you can almost get ahead of the curve, see exactly what they're doing 414 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:11.200 and how they're interacting with their audience and their buyers, and then just replicate 415 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:15.400 that in the B two B world and don't be afraid to do it. 416 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.759 It's interesting. That's a whole another conversation on what I'm seeing and I'm like, 417 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:22.400 okay, so tiktok is becoming a thing, but what's after Tiktok? 418 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:25.160 And I've already had in my head what's next after TIKTOK that I'm like starting 419 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:33.079 to invest in now. So we'll figure that out. But as Ma'am branding. 420 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:38.119 Branding such a broad and fascinating topic to pick up. What are some 421 00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:45.000 of the your favorite brands? Gone, refined labs, sweet fish definitely hits 422 00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:49.400 the list. I guess I'm going to to be two be ones drift kind 423 00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:52.319 of like the early days, to be honest. I like their narrative better 424 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:56.799 before than what it is now. I think it would be my top four. 425 00:27:56.839 --> 00:27:59.559 As for like B two C, because we can get, you know, 426 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:00.720 we take some examples from this. I would say, uh, the 427 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:06.400 NFL and the MLB are pretty incredible brands. Apple, of course, coke. 428 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.440 Wendy's is one of my favorite. Just go read their twitter. It's 429 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:14.400 hilarious. Burger King. So those are some examples of some brands that I 430 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:17.240 like interesting. I think all everybody listening to this show is kind of like 431 00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:18.759 nodding their head, like Yep, Yep, those are all the brands. 432 00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:22.240 I'm proud the sweet fish made in the list. That makes me happy, 433 00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:29.160 obviously compared to some others, but yeah, yeah, it's definitely the culture. 434 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.160 Whenever I think about you guys, I just think about what a fun 435 00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:36.160 place to work right. Everyone's excited to be there, excited to do their 436 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:38.400 job and it's like a family, and that's how I consider it and it 437 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:42.000 makes me like have an affinity towards what you guys do because of that. 438 00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.960 So obviously doing something right. Yeah, that's good. I'll certainly be passing 439 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:49.200 that off to James and uh, our director of culture, because that's what 440 00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:52.920 he cares a lot about. Um. But of course that eliminates out through 441 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:59.319 the brand and all the marketing work too. Oh cool man, Sam. 442 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.440 This has been an awesome conversation and I think this is going to be a 443 00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:07.240 continuing dialogue will be fun kicked off with this this podcast episode. There any 444 00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.039 final thoughts you have for the guest or anything you'd like to share about what 445 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:15.920 you're doing, what you're working on before we sign off with this episode? 446 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:19.960 You know if you want to continue the debate, I'm pretty active on Linkedin, 447 00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:22.960 Sam Moss. Just search it. I'm pretty sure I'll come up, 448 00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:29.440 so send me a connection request. We will go at it in the comments 449 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:30.799 section if you if you want to chat, I'm always responding to stuff, 450 00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:33.519 so that's probably the best way to find me that. We have a podcast 451 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.920 where it's called B t be made simple, where we talk about similar things 452 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:40.720 that we just talked about today. So if you're you're interested in that, 453 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:42.319 be sure to check it out as well. But Dan, I appreciate you 454 00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:57.119 having me and this has been great, awesome. B Two B growth is 455 00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:00.119 brought to you by the team at Sweet Fish Medio. Here at sweet fish, 456 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:03.720 we produce podcasts for some of the most innovative brands in the world and 457 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:08.599 we help them turn those podcasts into micro videos, linkedin content, blog posts 458 00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:12.119 and more. We're on a mission to produce every leader's favorite show. Want 459 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:22.880 more information, visit sweet fish media DOT COM