A New Position in an Existing Category, with Rowan Tonkin

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:17.600 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be tob growth. Welcome 2 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:21.359 back to be to be growth. I'm your host, Benjie Block. Today 3 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:26.000 I am joined by Rowan Tonkin. He's the CMO over at planfull. Rowan, 4 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:29.559 welcome to the show man banks, Benjie, excited to be here. 5 00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:33.759 Appreciate you having me on. Glad to have you here and I know the 6 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:39.359 last three years have been eventful for you at plan full. Much of your 7 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:44.560 effort really spent on defining a category and we're going to dig into that a 8 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:49.520 bit man, especially in for you guys, are very saturated market, a 9 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:54.880 mature category. So let's start with just some of the scope of the project 10 00:00:54.920 --> 00:00:58.840 you took on rowing and then we'll dive in here throughout the next twenty thirty 11 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:03.240 minutes. But give me an idea the scope of the project and give our 12 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:08.519 listeners an opportunity to hear that. Absolutely so. Our company has been around 13 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:15.319 since two thousand and one, very mature playoff in aspice, and we were 14 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:21.120 required by a private Equity Company vect capital at the end of two thousand and 15 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:25.599 eighteen and they sort about kind of investing in the business for growth, which 16 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:29.239 is an exciting time to come into as a CMA. Right. Like we 17 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:32.959 were a great company before and we're trying to make it even greater with even 18 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:37.680 better growth. And you know, a few things had changed in our space 19 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:41.159 since the company was founded. We had moved to the cloud, as one 20 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:44.840 of the first vendors moving to the cloud at that time. But there was 21 00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:49.560 a new set of disruptors coming into the category and there's still, you know, 22 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:53.000 new ones coming in today. Barriers to entry a low, barriers to 23 00:01:53.040 --> 00:02:00.719 success are high and at the time the company was called host analytics and that 24 00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:07.200 didn't really represent the our customers, our users every day. And so one 25 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:10.840 part of the remit was to rebrand the whole company, which is one thing, 26 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.919 but also, as you're doing that rebrand, you want to think about 27 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:19.639 your position in the market. How can you create a space and a niche 28 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:23.960 for yourself that you know, helps byers understand what you do? Visa v 29 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:30.439 a mature space, and so that's what really the remit was and is, 30 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:35.560 and now we've kind of found out our groove there. But this is never 31 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:38.960 ending, right, like the categories, whatever we decide to label them, 32 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:45.719 they're always changing. Competition, external forces are always changing for us. Yep, 33 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:47.960 yeah, I think it's there's a lot to dig into here, but 34 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:53.400 I know when it comes to category creation, it can be this feeling of 35 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:55.240 like well, or at least that's how we act, right. You just 36 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:59.479 kind of go off and you create it and man, it's this new thing 37 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:02.599 and it's our someome and it's almost like it's not difficult. But anybody who's 38 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:08.240 done it knows like it's extremely difficult. So give us any, any unique 39 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:13.800 set of circumstances that you guys were kind of faced with that your team has 40 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:20.439 had to navigate specifically. Yeah, I think the the glorified stories come from 41 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:24.960 categories that just get created from nowhere and so you know, whilst we all 42 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:30.360 know that's not easy, it is easier than when you're in a mature space. 43 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:34.280 So when you know, I'd been in the space before, I'd worked 44 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:38.800 for a competitor and we had changed some of the category at that point in 45 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:43.240 time. To write, we were one of the newer players into the space. 46 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.360 Our space has been around, you know, since the late s early 47 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:53.879 S. it's been classified as enterprise performance management and you know that was defined 48 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:59.000 by folks like our friends at Gardner Right, and it was a very, 49 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:01.199 you know, at that time, burgeoning category. Lots of good, you 50 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:04.319 know, good vendors, some had fallen away, some had got acquired, 51 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:09.719 lots of MNA and and then obviously the race to the cloud happens with those 52 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:15.360 on premise solutions moving to the cloud. But the category definition from a you 53 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.959 know, like people in the know, it was always still enterprise performance management. 54 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:25.000 But really, I'll buyers had never called it that. Like no one, 55 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:28.319 you know, types into Google. I'm looking for an EPM solution, 56 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:30.120 which is, you know, where it's as we have to acronym everything. 57 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:34.519 Yes, no one was really looking for it that way. And so what 58 00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:39.839 we wanted to do we shift it to a name the company more about our 59 00:04:39.959 --> 00:04:43.680 audience and what they do every day, which is, you know, in 60 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:47.959 our world it's planning, financial planning and analysis. is a really big market 61 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:53.920 that we serve and those people are planful. It's a verb, and so 62 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:57.519 we just we decided to name our company after them. That was one big 63 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:00.079 shift. But then also, as we think about the category, you know, 64 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.920 it's really hard to go and you know the twenty two amidable laws, 65 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.839 right. You know, if you can't create a category go and create a 66 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:12.399 secondary category within that category, but it's really hard to go and create one 67 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:15.759 when it's already been very mature. And so we want and wanted to decide, 68 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:19.680 you know, what is it the really value add that we offer our 69 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:25.360 customers and that's unique about our platform, and how do we fit in there? 70 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:29.639 And obviously naming the company planful was a good indication that we think about 71 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:33.000 this as a planning a planning process. And you know, for those finance 72 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:38.079 teams, you know working with CFOs in the world, they have teams called 73 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:41.800 FPNA and they help us do our planning every day. But we have some 74 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:46.240 unique capabilities that help us stand out and that is, you know, being 75 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.920 able to close the books and consolidate multi entities, and so we thought of 76 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:55.319 that as more continuous planning, being able to accelerate those cycle times for business 77 00:05:55.399 --> 00:06:00.199 users like ourselves and know where we are at every the end of every month. 78 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:02.920 And if we can accelerate that, then then you can do certain things. 79 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:06.959 So we decided to anchor on this idea of what we call continuous planning, 80 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:12.000 which sounds fantastic right. In practice, March, two thousand and twenty 81 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:15.800 hits and everyone's doing that. I don't know if everyone remembers, but I 82 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:19.120 was certainly planning far more frequently than I ever had been before. So, 83 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:24.120 you know, I don't know whether it was lock or whether this was just 84 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:29.839 going to happen naturally anyway, but planning cycle sped up rapidly and so for 85 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:33.519 us, this category definition that we had had kind of create, well, 86 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:39.600 not created, but adopted from another analyst, you know Rob Google a Ventana. 87 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:43.920 He had created this term and it really met the needs of what we 88 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.000 serve and how we deliver our value to our customers, and so we went 89 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:50.360 and created it in that way and it's become a term that is really picked 90 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:55.800 up momentum. But there's some challenges with it and I would love to really 91 00:06:55.800 --> 00:06:59.399 talk about some of those. But any more questions before I move on? 92 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:01.319 Yeah, I'm excited to get to the challenges, but I want to talk 93 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:05.000 about, just from a high level, these conversations that you were having. 94 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:11.600 I wonder what was there, like a specific sort of question that you really 95 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:15.800 were posing to get you to that place of going, okay, we're no 96 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:20.120 longer going to be identified with enterprise performance marketing. Let's go continuous planning is 97 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:25.800 there a helpful question in that process. Yeah, so the first one was 98 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:29.079 what do our bios call this category? Like, okay, what are they? 99 00:07:29.079 --> 00:07:32.000 What are they lord of the searching for it seems so obvious, right, 100 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:38.160 but you know, we often get stuck in definitions that analysts or other 101 00:07:38.279 --> 00:07:41.439 vendors make up, right, like, which is literally make up these terms 102 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:46.680 because we don't know what to classify something as yet. There's always this natural 103 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:50.560 classification that happens by the buyers and and so, you know, when you 104 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:57.000 think about financial planning and analysis professionals, they call it planning software, and 105 00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:01.600 so, you know, we really wanted to anchor into a category definition that 106 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:05.560 they call it. But there's some uniqueness there that we had which made us 107 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.040 want to you know, you can't just call it the planning software category. 108 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:13.160 Needs to be is it financial planning as a marketing planning, like planning for 109 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:18.639 what? And continuous planning to US encompasses a much broader set of capability. 110 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:24.920 And so that was the primary question that we wanted to ask of ourselves. 111 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:30.439 And then also, if we label it that, will the buyer identify with 112 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:33.759 it? Will they understand what that means? And and and that is probably 113 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:39.200 the best second question you can ask, because if they don't, you have 114 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:45.120 to spend all that time, money, get money, energy, investing in 115 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:50.240 telling them what it actually means, versus then intuitively knowing and and so we 116 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:54.759 were kind of, you know, on the edge. They're really people knew 117 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.000 what planning systems were, but did they really understand what we meant by a 118 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:01.519 continuous planning system? That could be scary to some folks in our in our 119 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:05.960 industry? Did so? Was it just testing the market with that messaging? 120 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:09.720 Was it talking to some specific people, like what did that look like? 121 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:13.559 Yeah, so it was. You know, I'm blessed here that pretty much 122 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.519 the whole company is financial planning experts. So we talked a lot to our 123 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:26.360 internal team members about what that meant to them, what value it had, 124 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:30.159 what was already out there, you know, like if you go and adopt 125 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:33.720 a category definition, you have to also make sure can we own it? 126 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:37.720 Right? Is this something other people have already defined? Right, because if 127 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:39.200 you're going to create a category, you want to make sure you're either number 128 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:43.559 one in it or you own that category. Seriously, again, back to 129 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:48.600 twenty two admitable laws, right, so very kind of very much. Can 130 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:52.360 we own this what's already out there? If there's some stuff out there, 131 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:56.960 like how deep is it? How well understood is it? And so what 132 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:01.720 we identified was that, you know, there was some stuff out there, 133 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:03.600 but we could still go and own it, we could still make it our 134 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:07.440 own, we could still provide a ton of value on a ton of explanation 135 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:11.120 to folks. And then did it pass the you know, the smoke test? 136 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:16.440 DID DID PEOPLE RESONATE WITH IT quickly? And it turns out they did. 137 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:20.879 So it worked really well for us. It's one thing, I guess, 138 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:24.000 to be sitting in a board room and go, okay, we're going 139 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:26.720 to be this a new thing, and now it feels like you have all 140 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:30.639 this white space in a sense, right, like we've created this new category. 141 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:35.759 But the reality is you still are going back to customers, you're going 142 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:41.080 back to clients who they know you as something and you're going to have to 143 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:46.440 now say we have our current features, we have our current product, we're 144 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:50.000 going to have to tweak our way almost essentially to this New Vision that we 145 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:54.679 have. What is that look like? To have to take people along for 146 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:58.440 the journey while you know where you're going, but ultimately you're still with where 147 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:03.639 you're currently at right? Yeah, the good news is it wasn't a complete 148 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:09.159 pivot from one category to another. Can it's still made a lot of sense. 149 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:11.480 And so, you know, as you think about the scale that we 150 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:15.039 were at, we were already a large company. We've been around long time, 151 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:18.639 very mature, and you still want to make sure you don't want to 152 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:22.919 alienate your customers, right, if you go and define a new category, 153 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.000 do a bunch of your existing customers then look at you and say, well, 154 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:28.039 that's not what I bought, I don't resonate with that, I'm going 155 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:33.399 to churn and go somewhere else because that's not my vision. Right. So 156 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:37.679 you also have to be really clear about that and that was something that we 157 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:41.720 spend a lot of time during that evaluation process trying to consider, like who 158 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:46.120 does this alienate? What does this do to our existing set of capabilities? 159 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:50.799 And you know, we felt like it's still really resonated with our customers, 160 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:54.399 but it would still need some explanation. Right, it is a change and 161 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:58.720 you still need to tell that story. It was also at the same time 162 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:03.120 that we did the rebrand change, so it kind of made sense, right, 163 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:07.919 so lump them together. Yeah, you're communicating not only just a name 164 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:11.840 company name change, but you're also then being able to say we change our 165 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:16.360 name to this and we have this vision and it's an extension of the you 166 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:20.399 know vision that was their prior but this is where we're taking this company. 167 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:26.320 So we're telling that story to our customers, to perspective, you know, 168 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:30.279 to the market really. But as you then think about that, you've got 169 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:35.679 to try and understand or right, where does this fit? And so internally 170 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:39.720 we think most of your audience would understand and use. Eugene Swartz has kind 171 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:46.320 of definitions of awareness right in break or advertising. If you haven't read that, 172 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:50.279 go read breakthrough advertising. Fantastic book. So our customer set, they're 173 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:54.799 the most aware people, right, and and we can define this category for 174 00:12:54.840 --> 00:13:00.600 the most aware. The question then becomes is, for the unaware people of 175 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.480 you, of your category, does that make sense, even in the middle, 176 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:07.440 right in the problem, a where solution or where product aware, does 177 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:11.960 that definition actually make sense? And how much are you going to have to 178 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:18.840 change and navigate that category creation with all the different stages awareness, and what 179 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.799 techniques are you going to use throughout that? Yeah, so in your guys, 180 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:26.919 as mind. It was if we can inform the unaware and then we 181 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:33.320 can also really create evangelists out of the most aware. That's how we win 182 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:39.600 right correct. For the first while we actually were spending too much time talking 183 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:43.360 to it to the middle stages, right, like you think that would be 184 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:48.279 the the place where you need to spend the most time on category creation and 185 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:56.840 category kind of definition and that explanation. But those folks just didn't really it 186 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:01.360 doesn't really resonate them because it's not the pain that they're experiencing today. But 187 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:07.120 once you then start into, you know, more use case level marketing for 188 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:11.080 them, Hey, you have this planning, budgeting, forecasting problem. Great, 189 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:15.799 we can solve that for you and now that you're more aware, I 190 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:20.480 can tell you about our vision for that in future. And if you spend 191 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:22.919 too much time right like cold calling, Hey, do you need a continuous 192 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:28.600 planning solution? People like they don't even know what that is. Right. 193 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:33.320 So you're going to make sure that where your you meet your customers where they 194 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:39.279 are and be mindful that your category May Not meet those customers where they are 195 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:43.519 often and as you then can bring them along. How do you tell them 196 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:48.519 through their own journey but through your journey what this category means to them and 197 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:54.960 how you can help, and that ultimately defines your position in the the wider 198 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:58.120 market. Did you feel that sort of tension, in that need for like 199 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:03.159 just small weeks throughout as you're going, okay, we know we want to 200 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:05.559 meet these clients. You know where these potential clients, where they are, 201 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:09.679 but also we want to explain our new category. I'm sure there's like a 202 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:13.080 rush to want to try to explain. Yeah, and and it's not just 203 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:16.480 you know, like you can be as thoughtful as you possibly can be, 204 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:20.840 but you know, when you get something shiny and new, right, like 205 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:24.240 you know we we've all built cool stuff, right, and you just want 206 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:26.879 to show people and you go into the end level of detail and you show 207 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:30.720 them and they're like cool, I don't even know what that thing is yet, 208 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:35.159 right. And so you know what we found through listening to, you 209 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:39.200 know, call recordings, looking at, you know, email responses, just 210 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:46.480 looking at facial reactions on video calls, you quickly understand that they don't resonate 211 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:50.919 with it immediately. That like that immediate Aha moment doesn't occur until you kind 212 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.799 of say, you know, here's your existing pain. Here's how we fix 213 00:15:54.879 --> 00:16:00.320 it and here's our vision. And so if you lead with the vision, 214 00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:04.639 they just don't get it. And so you know that that understanding came from 215 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:10.759 a lot of that market testing earli up. But when you're when you're doing 216 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:15.360 that evaluation, when you're even considering the category, How do you do that? 217 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.000 Right, like you go and talk to your customers, but there you're 218 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:21.200 most aware people. You like, does this make sense, and they're like 219 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:22.679 yeah, of course it makes sense. Yeah, I was already bought in 220 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:26.360 the you got and test the unaware people. I don't even know who you 221 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:30.440 guys are. Yeah, that seems to make sense. But trialing it in 222 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.919 the middle of your yeah, and I didn't have the benefit of time, 223 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.879 right. I didn't have the benefit of, you know, trying to spend 224 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:41.279 six months rolling out a new category. We did this, you know, 225 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:45.879 alongside a rebrand. I joined in September, thirty of two thousand and nineteen. 226 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:49.960 The regrant happened on the sixteenth of January, right. So really, 227 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:55.600 really kind of important aspect is, do you have the time to go and 228 00:16:55.679 --> 00:17:02.039 test every stage of that funnel? Hey be to be growth listeners. We 229 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:04.000 want to hear from you. In fact, we will pay you for it. 230 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:10.240 Just head over to B TOB growth podcom and complete a short survey about 231 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:12.920 the show to enter for a chance to win two hundred and fifty dollars plus. 232 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:18.240 The first fifty participants will receive twenty five dollars as our way of saying 233 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:22.160 thank you so much one more time. That's BB growth podcom, letter B 234 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:30.119 number two, letter be growth podcom. One entry per person must be an 235 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:34.400 active listener of the show to enter and look forward to hearing from you. 236 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:44.440 Trialing it in the middle of your yeah, and I didn't have the benefit 237 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:47.160 of time, right. I didn't have the benefit of, you know, 238 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:49.799 trying to spend six months rolling out a new category. We did this, 239 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:53.720 you know, alongside a rebrand. I joined in September, thirty of two 240 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:59.119 thousand and nineteen. The rebrand happened on the sixteenth of January. Right. 241 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:03.680 So do you have the time to go and test every stage of that funnel? 242 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:07.759 So I wonder. You taught. We talked a bit about the most 243 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:11.400 aware group, and it's one thing for them to get it like okay, 244 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:15.880 you're doing this new thing. It's another to go we want to turn you 245 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:21.720 into essentially evangelists. Right, we want to not just have you get it 246 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:25.279 cognitively, but we want you to be so excited about it that you're actually 247 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:29.680 helping with our marketing. You're turning into someone that's going to I see what 248 00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:33.279 they're doing and I really like that. What were some of the ways that 249 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:37.880 you guys went about turning these most aware group, this category, this group, 250 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:42.720 into actual evangelists for what you were doing? Yeah, I mean it's 251 00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:48.599 very typical with any marketing organization. We all want social proof of, you 252 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.279 know, whatever it is that we're doing right. You want people using your 253 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:57.920 words, using your definition, and ultimately that's going out and finding those those 254 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:02.960 uses that were already doing this thing anyway. It's not like we just came 255 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:06.480 up with the term that, you know, like no one was doing this 256 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:10.039 thing before we came up with a then we had to go and build it 257 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:14.519 right. That's the the flip side of the benefit for us is that we 258 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:19.920 were a mature vendor with customers that were already doing this. We were just 259 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:26.759 giving it a definition that was new and that we felt would separate us. 260 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:32.319 Right like Blue Ocean strategy would create a a niche in our market. That 261 00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:37.240 allows us to win against the competition. And you know that every time you 262 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:40.119 go and do blue ocean, they're going to swim over and try and find 263 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:44.440 the fish too. But we thought we had an advantage through the product capabilities 264 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:48.400 that we had. So we're going to look at those customers that are behaving 265 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:52.200 exactly like what we wanted to find this thing as and say, Hey, 266 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:56.279 you know, we're working on this definition. We call it this. Do 267 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.960 you identify with that? And they do, and then you say, all 268 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:04.799 right, let's work together on a demonstrating that that's what you call it. 269 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:08.960 And we were lucky in that. We had our well lucky. We had 270 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:14.640 our user conference scheduled for the May right and we were already working with customers 271 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:18.920 to tell their story at the user conference. So that obviously didn't happen in 272 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:23.799 person, but it happened virtually and we got them to tell their stories in 273 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:27.319 that way. And then you also then have to go and shape the other 274 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:32.880 influences in your market. Right, who else is using this terminology? As 275 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:36.720 I said earlier, one of the analysts in our space had already labeled this 276 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:40.119 term and we took it on as our own. So he was very happy 277 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:42.720 about that. He's like wow, they're like they're going and championing this term 278 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:47.839 which I had created. We started to see competitors use it more and more, 279 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:52.319 not as their core message, but in their blogs and in some of 280 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:56.119 their thought leadership. are another way to a seeing it. Yeah, it's 281 00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:00.400 and that's good, because you can't create a category alone if you're out there 282 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:03.640 alone and then that that's hard. But it was good to see that they'd 283 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:10.079 adopted that. And and then also you need to bring other influences along to 284 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:14.640 not just customers. So, you know, working with the social proof kind 285 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:17.880 of the GETWO's of the world, the trust radius is of the world. 286 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:22.960 How can we get that term brought into those areas so that it becomes more 287 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.960 proliferated? And we were, you know, somewhat successful in doing that with 288 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:33.200 some customers writing their reviews using our terminology. And you know, we haven't 289 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.160 completely got there where those categories as defined in the in the dropdowns, are 290 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:41.440 what we call it right. It's still planning, budgeting and forecasting or close 291 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:47.440 management or planning software, right. So you know, obviously we want it 292 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:51.759 to be exactly our definition, but our competitors have different definitions. To. 293 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.359 So you know, it's we're all trying to outposition each other. Yeah, 294 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.200 maybe, maybe, someday, that's that's a whole right. Yeah, just 295 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.880 not quite. Will emerge the winner, right like if you can, if 296 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:07.960 you can emerge the winner from that in that space and everyone starts using that 297 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:12.680 term. The challenge that we have is, again, it's very mature space. 298 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:18.599 There's lots of different analysts that call it different things and and we're on 299 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:22.680 that journey alongside the rest of the competition to try and figure it all out. 300 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:26.240 And you know, this is really worked for us over the course of 301 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:30.680 the last two and a half years as we've rolled it out, we've adopted 302 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:34.119 it in, we've change the way that we do it. Right, as 303 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.240 I said before, we used to try and really force it down, so 304 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:41.160 you know in all the middle stages. Well, we stopped doing that and 305 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:45.440 kind of let it come naturally and that's been a much easier way for those 306 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.720 middle stages of Awayenas to adopt the term and leverage of the term. But 307 00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:52.839 you know, the every day they're out there hearing from some other vendor on, 308 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:56.519 you know, planning this, planning that, and and so we've got 309 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:02.400 to continually demonstrate, like Why our vision is better than theirs and use social 310 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:06.920 proof and and use, you know, metrics in our way to prove you 311 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.440 mentioned it earlier, and then, know, when we chatted offline as well, 312 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:18.319 we were kind of laughing about how it's easy to talk about how great 313 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:23.359 category creation is and then the reality of just the difficulties, and there are. 314 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:27.079 I think we are guilty as marketers of making it look like, man, 315 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.359 look at all these amazing metrics, the all these ways we've succeeded, 316 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.839 but it's also there's a lot of difficulty behind the scenes to get those big 317 00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:38.519 wins. So run highlight a couple of just man these. This is what 318 00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:42.079 makes it very hard. or like some roadblocks you hit? What were some 319 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:47.279 of those difficult things that you maybe didn't expect that you would encounter in this 320 00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:52.480 category creation process? Yeah, so, I mean firstly you've got to go 321 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:55.799 through and again, you know, this is a business that have been around 322 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:57.519 for a while. We had lots of content, lots of assets, lots 323 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:03.920 of SEO built up, lots of and the question then becomes, well, 324 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:11.440 does do we just find and replace right literally, yeah, that's the question. 325 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:15.599 Hey boss, do we just click find and replace and just anything that 326 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.559 was this term is now this term. So, wow, it doesn't quite 327 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:22.079 work like that. What did you guys land on? Like, like could 328 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:26.680 take me through that process, because I could imagine it be okay. If 329 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:30.519 it's not find and replace, it gets a lot more complicated. So what 330 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:34.279 do yeah, what do you start exactly? And and so it's so firstly, 331 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.640 the the old definition that we use of enterprise performance management didn't just fall 332 00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:44.319 off the face of the planet, right. So there's an element of okay, 333 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:48.759 we want to be more inbound with this type of term, right, 334 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:52.640 so we still know when someone searches for that term, like we don't feel 335 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:56.039 like it's the most common term to be searched, but when they do search 336 00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:57.279 for it, we want to be there. You got to show in one 337 00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:02.920 of them change the vision, right. So you can't just find and replace, 338 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:06.319 because then you just drop off the face of the planet for that particular 339 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:11.720 you know, search term before using searches an example. So it's defining really 340 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.279 and spending a lot of time on your content order. Where do we want 341 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:21.119 to be inbound? Then? What's the journey from inbound to then getting more 342 00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:23.640 this is how we want you to talk. And so what's the flow, 343 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:30.200 the content flow through there? What's our pillar pieces of content? Do they 344 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.839 does this New Vision Right? New Pitch Deck, new sales deck, new 345 00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:38.319 narrative, new SDR messaging, all like the kind of good news for us 346 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:42.279 is because we were doing it at the same time as a rebrand. It 347 00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:47.640 had to change all of that content anyway, right. You know, there 348 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:51.400 was an easier part, which was fining to replace old company named New Company 349 00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:55.920 name. Right. But as you're going through that content anyway, updating it 350 00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:59.000 in the new you know, new color scheme, all of that stuff, 351 00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:02.920 you're then able to then assess each asset and say is this something that is 352 00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:06.640 worth keeping, yes or no? Does it require a change, yes or 353 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:11.880 no, and then prioritize that change. How important is that asset amongst all 354 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:15.079 the things that we can do? And so we went through that exercise. 355 00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:19.480 You know the team, you know the hours that were put into that. 356 00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:23.920 Was Amazing because we did in such a short space of time. But then 357 00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:27.319 there's still a phase to clean up that you have to go into afterwards. 358 00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:32.920 So really important to phase it that as you go through that phasing you're also 359 00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:36.599 learning along the way. Oh, this part is working in the sales pitch 360 00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:40.880 deck and this isn't resonating in the pitch deck. Let's adjust that. Oh 361 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:44.519 well, we adjusted that then, if you think about that, well, 362 00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:47.599 we also need to adjust the way that we talked about it in these ten 363 00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:51.960 blogs that we already had updated, right, because now they don't make sense. 364 00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:56.400 And so those core pillars were really important, those core assets were really 365 00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:00.480 important to just continuously iterate on. And you know, we live in a 366 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:03.960 world where you think you get it right first time. Every time you don't. 367 00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:11.240 So and you never plan right your everyone's project plan ends at go live. 368 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:15.000 Yeah, the finish line, but it's actually the start line. Yeah, 369 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:18.920 and and thankfully, you know, I'd done some of this at prior 370 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.319 company, so I knew there's going to be phase to phase three. And 371 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.240 as you're going through the initial set of work, you're like, okay, 372 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:30.599 we'll clean this up in future, but what you think you'll need to clean 373 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:33.680 up change as a whole lot. Like the prioritization just changes. So what 374 00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:38.440 was phase too becomes phase three because you learnt everything from phase one. So 375 00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:42.640 you just got to be willing to shift, willing to ensure that you are 376 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:48.599 listening right. Sales had, you know, really positive feedback initially and then 377 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:52.960 there's like Oh, but this isn't working anymore. My old talk track, 378 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:56.119 which used to work every time, doesn't work anymore. How can I make 379 00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:00.319 that better? So there's a lot of coaching that you need to do there 380 00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.640 with any change in strategic narrative, but, more importantly, at the market 381 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:08.359 wide definition. I think we got it right and now it's about just, 382 00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:11.880 you know, more than nuance. And you spend so much time in that 383 00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:17.599 nuance, especially in a mature market, because you know if you get it 384 00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:22.400 wrong you can lose strategic advantage with a your customer base, like we took 385 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:26.799 talked about earlier, but you can lose some advantage in the way that you 386 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:33.319 think you can out position or really out ultimately, we think our software is 387 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.279 better, the right choice for these different types of customers, and if they 388 00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:41.759 don't identify with that, then you're losing those perspective customers up front because you 389 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:47.359 messaging your whole umbrella messaging doesn't work. HMM. Okay. So because this 390 00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:52.400 is partnered with the rebrand, one more question, just on like pillars and 391 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:59.559 distribution plans. So your what's the first piece of like main pillar content that 392 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.640 was that you released following the rebrand? Is it just to educate the market 393 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:07.319 and kind of going back to that initial conversation, are you going to the 394 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:12.480 unaware or was it multiple plays at once, also like to activate those most 395 00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:18.359 aware? What was that distribution right right when the rebrand hit? Yeah, 396 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:22.599 so the rebrand was a funny one. So we did the roof, funny, 397 00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.079 scary, all of those things. All the things we did the rebrand 398 00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:30.519 at our internal you know, we having physical kickoffs, right in person kickoff 399 00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:36.160 events. So we did it at our sales kickoff. As everyone walked into 400 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:40.240 the event, they had all their host analytics badges. You know, all 401 00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:45.640 the signage was host analytics. We go into the room and and then we 402 00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.759 announced, you know, we do the the drop of the new logo, 403 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:53.200 the website changes. You know, my whole team were sitting in another room 404 00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:59.119 of the hotel flipping the website during that day to make sure all of that 405 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:03.519 goes live. And as we walked out, you know, their swag bags 406 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:06.440 there with the new that, you know, the new brand, the new 407 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:11.319 logo, new messaging, everything right. So it was is very we thought 408 00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:15.160 through a lot about the physical change for the employees and doing it there was 409 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.720 a really pivotal moment in in the company. But from a buyers perspective, 410 00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:23.720 you can't forget about all the different stages because, so you know, from 411 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:30.240 the unaware perspective, you're announcing the new brand to the world and therefore, 412 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:32.680 when you have a new brand, you have to give them a reason why 413 00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:36.680 you changed, but also a new vision. So that New Vision was the 414 00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:42.240 new category effectively, and what that meant for our existing customers and future customers. 415 00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:45.720 So you try to handle the unaware and the most aware. At the 416 00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:49.079 same time, you obviously have to communicate to all your customer base. You're 417 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.920 most aware, your partners, your you know we have resellers, you're you 418 00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:56.559 know, anyone that's a stakeholder of the company. You have to communicate all 419 00:30:56.599 --> 00:31:00.240 of that and then you've got to communicate all your demand Jenefforts. Right. 420 00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:04.240 So every prospect in your database. Today, we know we announced, we 421 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:07.960 are now planful and you know this is why we change the name. Here's 422 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:12.160 the reason behind it and here's our vision for the future. And have the 423 00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:17.240 content and the assets that underpin that in the vision for the future. So 424 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:19.319 you try to do it all at once and I don't. I don't believe 425 00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:25.559 in that circumstance where you're doing a name change as well as a position change, 426 00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:30.920 you can miss an audience. You have to do it all, otherwise 427 00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:37.279 you're going to be left with some large gap of a very frustrated potential sales 428 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:44.160 team or frustrated customer team or frustrated see who and board right, like some, 429 00:31:44.359 --> 00:31:45.279 you know if you don't do it all, you're going to piss off 430 00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:49.160 someone, and so you've got to do it all and you've also got to 431 00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:55.720 be willing to accept. Well, where am I okay with this being imperfect? 432 00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:59.799 Right? Where am I co okay with this being, you know, 433 00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:04.839 a little bit maybe unclear, unless you spend six months doing it? I 434 00:32:04.839 --> 00:32:07.720 didn't have that. I didn't want to have that luxury of time. We 435 00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:13.119 wanted to move fast. So we had to accept that and we aid more 436 00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:17.240 on the side of we want the unaware and most aware to be more on 437 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:22.720 the perfection side. Right. We didn't want to alienate our customer base, 438 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:28.319 we didn't want to alienate our employees, didn't want to ailien alienate anyone involved 439 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:31.519 in the company. Unaware was very much thought leadership. We wanted to share 440 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:35.960 this with the market, make it big news and then, as you think 441 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.920 about you know like existing you know existing prospects in your database. Well, 442 00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:44.079 thankfully you've got sales people to help explain it right. So that's where you 443 00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:46.720 can leave at a little in perfect. People in the demand Gen funnel like 444 00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:51.359 the problem of where you kind of got to make that perfect. So that's 445 00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:54.519 where we kind of ended. So I imagine there's a few groups of people 446 00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:59.519 listening to this. I often think of our BYB growth audience as just a 447 00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:02.519 Lauren droom right where we're like in this hall together and you and I are 448 00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:07.200 chatting, and so there's a few groups that are listening. You have a 449 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:10.240 group that is going to resonate because they're currently in the process of doing much 450 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:14.440 of what you did, whether it's around category creation or it's a redesign of 451 00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:19.640 some kind, it's a rebrand. That's the ones that this will immediately resonate 452 00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.519 with right away. Then you have people that are more along lines of where 453 00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:25.160 you are now. Right it's a few years down the road. They're not 454 00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:28.640 going through it right now, but they've been through something. And then you 455 00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:30.799 have those that are listening going okay, it's great to hear you talk about 456 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:34.720 it, but I'm not. I'm not going through this right now. I 457 00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:39.599 wonder rowing can you kind of just talk to marketers more broadly for a second 458 00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:44.440 and go looking back at this process that you've been through? What have you 459 00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:50.640 learned in this that applies to maybe your marketing day in day out, when 460 00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:52.960 it's not just I'm working in a rebrand like. What did you learn from 461 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:57.599 that whole process that has really stuck with you in the work you do? 462 00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:02.640 Yeah, number one, and to always be evaluating your positioning in your narrative. 463 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:07.680 It's never perfect. Number One, right, and you know, I've 464 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:12.599 been a number of organizations where it's well defined and you like Ah, set 465 00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:16.880 it and forget it. Right. This experience has certainly made me realize the 466 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:23.440 importance of just continually testing that, continuously listening and being ready to adjust and 467 00:34:23.480 --> 00:34:29.079 being to willing to adjust. Number two. I think that is is first 468 00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:35.440 and foremost the biggest learning. The second learning would be always have anchors back 469 00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:39.159 to you know what you're trying to do in a way that resonates with you, 470 00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:44.280 know, not just your marketing team but everyone and and for us that's 471 00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:49.559 been using the stages of awareness because it's conceptually people get it really quickly. 472 00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:52.400 Right. Okay, with this group, we're going to talk about it in 473 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:55.280 this way with this bucket of people. We're going to talk about it this 474 00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:59.679 way with this bucket of people. We're really going to invest in it and 475 00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:04.519 talk about it this way and and that helps everyone across the company, from 476 00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:08.400 exact team members to, you know, a brand new hire on the HR 477 00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:14.239 team, to an str to a new a, to your most tenured a. 478 00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:19.119 That would be again, I think, make sure that you have those 479 00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:24.199 pillars well understood, well communicated across the company so that they can you know, 480 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:28.599 they can be your evangelist of this to you. Just don't rely on 481 00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:34.239 the marketing engine. I love that well willingness to adjust and then anchors back 482 00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:37.199 to those core messages which, if marketing is doing that effectively, is going 483 00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:43.960 to help every other department in the organization. Yeah, really, you definitely 484 00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:49.239 learn that in the process of having to go back through all your content, 485 00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.199 right, like we were talking about earlier, and then you're just thinking about 486 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.760 positioning messaging constantly, which is something we need to be doing, but it 487 00:35:55.840 --> 00:36:00.400 is easy. I can say we're not in that season right now. We're 488 00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:02.679 not, you know, and I think of set it in, forget it 489 00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:07.199 and it feels good because you're not having to revisit it. But we all 490 00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:12.199 know sometimes we wait too long and that content that wants resonated so well in 491 00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:16.400 the market maybe man and in the times when it's moving so fast, we 492 00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:20.480 have to be, you know, ready to pivot. So I think that's 493 00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:24.400 a good challenge to really leave us with today. Absolutely, and it's hard 494 00:36:24.440 --> 00:36:29.599 work. So you know, like there's inherent understanding of like, Oh, 495 00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:32.480 do I really want to go and tackle that big initiative right now? But 496 00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:37.679 you have to, because otherwise, you know, the world's changing too fast. 497 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:40.320 Yeah, Yep. Well, this has been a fascinating conversation round. 498 00:36:40.360 --> 00:36:44.800 Thanks for diving into some of this. I know there will be listeners that 499 00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:47.239 want to stay connected to you as well as here a little bit more of 500 00:36:47.480 --> 00:36:52.119 know we've talked through the story, but just maybe high level like what planfull 501 00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:54.280 does, where they can get more info on on you guys as well. 502 00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:57.880 Yeah, so hopefully, if you're at this point, you've realized what we 503 00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:00.400 do, given we've talked a little bit about about that, but yeah, 504 00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:07.119 we make you know planning clothes and consolidations solutions for your the office of your 505 00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:13.920 CFO, typically working with financial planning, your vp of finance, your control 506 00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:17.519 and your accounting team to help them do their jobs in a more efficient, 507 00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:22.960 more effective way, and that in turn helps you, typically these audience right 508 00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:29.079 in understanding your business better from a financial metrics perspective. We speak every day 509 00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:32.280 and operational met tricks, pipeline, qls, S, why Lana, all 510 00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:37.559 of that stuff. Learning the financial metrics will make you a bit better Markeda 511 00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:42.119 or better sales person, and and that's what we try and help finance do, 512 00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:45.840 is make you elevate. You A financial IQ. Best Way to connect 513 00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:50.559 with me is on Linkedin, unless you're interested in rugby and golf. If 514 00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:52.840 you're interested in those two things, go to my twitter at Rowland Tonkin. 515 00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:59.079 If Not Linkedin, Rollin Tonkin. I'm the CMO of Plan for love it. 516 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:04.280 We should have definitely talked some rugby. Man, I grew up overseas 517 00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:07.320 and I'm so sad because over here it's not as big. Actually, I 518 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:12.719 will say in Austin rugby is growing and so it's a happy site to see. 519 00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:15.760 But I had planned a trip Benjie to go and see the guilt teeny's 520 00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:22.159 versus the Gil grownies in La this Sunday, and then I quickly realized it 521 00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:24.480 was mother's Day, so I cancel with my trip. Well, I'm going 522 00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:30.199 to a soccer match for mother's Day because my motherinlaw loves soccer, so we 523 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:34.480 will be at the Austin FC game on Sunday. But awesome. Thanks for 524 00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:37.119 chatting to all our listeners. If you haven't connected with me, you can 525 00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:39.840 do that on Linkedin as well. I encourage you to do that. Talk 526 00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:44.920 about marketing, business in life over there and always happy to connect. If 527 00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:47.639 you haven't followed the show yet on your favorite podcast player, please do that 528 00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:51.960 so you never miss an episode of BB growth. We're here to help fuel 529 00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.280 your growth and innovation, so we'll be back l soon with another episode. 530 00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:59.639 Keep doing work that matters. Rowan, thanks for being with us today. 531 00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:00.320 Thanks Ji.