1337: 5 Steps for Leading in Times of Rapid Change w/ Erika Andersen

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:08.349 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:08.589 --> 00:00:12.869 I'm joined today by Erica Anderson. She is the founding partner over at 3 00:00:12.910 --> 00:00:17.789 Proteus International. She is also a key note speaker and author, and her 4 00:00:17.870 --> 00:00:22.579 upcoming book changing, making nonstop change your new normal is going to be part 5 00:00:22.620 --> 00:00:26.300 of the conversation today. Erica, welcome to the show. Oh thank you, 6 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:29.859 I'm so glad to be here. I love doing podcasts and I particularly 7 00:00:29.940 --> 00:00:32.939 like the premise of your podcast, so this is Oh, thank you so 8 00:00:33.140 --> 00:00:36.890 much. Welly Erica, we love to let listeners get a little bit of 9 00:00:36.929 --> 00:00:40.170 a peek behind the curtain and get to know our guests before we dive straight 10 00:00:40.250 --> 00:00:43.409 into the tactics we're going to be talking about today, which is going to 11 00:00:43.530 --> 00:00:47.289 be all about managing the rate of change, which is seems like it was 12 00:00:47.329 --> 00:00:51.439 already breaknext speed and two thousand and twenty has just pushed it beyond the limits. 13 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:55.000 But curious, Erica, in in this year, you know, on 14 00:00:55.079 --> 00:00:59.640 the topic of change, has there been a change area personally where you've picked 15 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:03.960 up a new hobby or anything in this time of quarantine and self isolation? 16 00:01:03.120 --> 00:01:07.030 So far in two thousand and twenty. Oh, there are lots of things. 17 00:01:07.069 --> 00:01:11.709 I'll talk about two of them. One is the big kind of Hashtag 18 00:01:11.750 --> 00:01:15.430 silver lining of working from home for the last five months is I have taken 19 00:01:15.790 --> 00:01:19.540 such good advantage of where I live. I lived in this beautiful, slightly 20 00:01:19.620 --> 00:01:23.219 rural area about our half north of New York City and I can walk out 21 00:01:23.219 --> 00:01:27.459 of my front door and take long walks and hikes through the woods, and 22 00:01:27.659 --> 00:01:30.859 so I've been doing that at the end of almost every work day where it's 23 00:01:30.859 --> 00:01:34.730 not just ranny, chess and dogs, and that's been absolutely lovely. So 24 00:01:34.849 --> 00:01:38.450 that's the thing one, and thing two is I started to I decided to 25 00:01:38.489 --> 00:01:44.209 learn Spanish three or four years ago and I've not only been practicing every day, 26 00:01:44.250 --> 00:01:48.439 but I've been finding people that I can speak Spanish to in unzoom conversations. 27 00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:51.840 So, Oh man, I love that. I absolutely love that. 28 00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:55.079 I took a took Spanish in in high school. I did a little bit 29 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:59.959 of Mandarin Chinese in College. We won't go down that route because I'm toned 30 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:01.629 deaf, as my wife will tell you, and that is a very tough 31 00:02:01.670 --> 00:02:07.229 language to learn if you are tone deaf. There's yes or yes. You've 32 00:02:07.229 --> 00:02:09.669 got to hear those. It's not just about what you say, but how 33 00:02:09.750 --> 00:02:14.349 you say it. Well, Erica is speaking of change, tell us a 34 00:02:14.389 --> 00:02:19.939 little bit about your upcoming book that is slated to launch probably right after the 35 00:02:20.060 --> 00:02:23.500 new year, some time there. Why was it important for you to to 36 00:02:23.620 --> 00:02:28.419 write this book? I imagine the importance of change is kind to and managing 37 00:02:28.500 --> 00:02:31.449 change is staring us right in the face with covid and this pandemic of two 38 00:02:31.490 --> 00:02:36.289 thousand and twenty. But with that, and and also just what you were 39 00:02:36.330 --> 00:02:39.810 seeing from leaders that you work with, why was it so important to write 40 00:02:39.849 --> 00:02:46.080 about change and managing change? From your opinion, it's a great fundamental question. 41 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:51.520 So we proteus have had a change practice. have been developing a change 42 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:57.719 practice for the last decade in response to the speed of change in life and 43 00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:01.110 organizations just ramping up. At the beginning of the book I talked about how 44 00:03:01.789 --> 00:03:05.909 when I was a kid, which was a long time ago, that how 45 00:03:06.030 --> 00:03:08.949 long it took to go from black and white TV to color TV. It 46 00:03:09.110 --> 00:03:13.020 was most of a decade. So by the time, you know, TV 47 00:03:13.180 --> 00:03:15.900 was this huge new thing. I remember I was a little kid and by 48 00:03:15.939 --> 00:03:17.539 the time color TV came along, we're all used to it. We were 49 00:03:17.659 --> 00:03:23.219 ready for that extension. Didn't feel disruptive at all. And now changes that 50 00:03:23.500 --> 00:03:28.050 big as the change from black and white color TV happen every three days, 51 00:03:28.689 --> 00:03:34.330 and so we've all seen how the pace of change, psychological, social, 52 00:03:34.530 --> 00:03:39.289 economic, political organizational, has just ramped up and that people need a way 53 00:03:39.449 --> 00:03:43.759 to deal with it better. So we have a five step change model that 54 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:47.159 helps people make their organizations more capable. I wanted to write about that, 55 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:52.000 but as I got into the book I also part of what I do when 56 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:54.080 I write books is try to unpack down to the bottom and kind of crack 57 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:59.150 the code on a human level. So I really wanted to get in touch 58 00:03:59.229 --> 00:04:04.189 with how do individual human beings go through change? Is there a kind of 59 00:04:04.590 --> 00:04:10.300 core shape of that, which, it turns out there is. We call 60 00:04:10.340 --> 00:04:15.740 it the Change Arc, something that happens inside individual human beings psychologically and emotionally, 61 00:04:15.899 --> 00:04:20.860 that happens pretty consistently and predictably, no matter the kind of change or 62 00:04:20.899 --> 00:04:25.370 the individual so that's kind of at the heart of the book because what I 63 00:04:25.529 --> 00:04:29.810 wanted to do is not just how people go through a change but, as 64 00:04:29.889 --> 00:04:34.449 you just said, help individual people and their organization has become more change capable. 65 00:04:35.329 --> 00:04:39.360 Make nonstop change your new normal. So it's less like Oh my God, 66 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:41.839 there's another change we have to deal with and more like, Yep, 67 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:45.879 this is what's happening. Let's let's do it as we have learned to do 68 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:49.160 it. Yeah, absolutely. I think I'll have some questions for you on 69 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:54.629 those five steps and what you call that Change Arc. It kind of reminds 70 00:04:54.670 --> 00:04:59.110 me of the stages of grief, as psychologists have kind of looked into that 71 00:04:59.269 --> 00:05:02.990 and seen some predictable patterns. But I have another question on the why for 72 00:05:03.149 --> 00:05:08.420 you, Erica, because this is something that in a fast growing company here 73 00:05:08.620 --> 00:05:12.339 at sweetfish media, where a bootstrap team of about twenty five today, but 74 00:05:12.740 --> 00:05:15.300 two years ago I was full timer number four and wasn't, even, you 75 00:05:15.339 --> 00:05:18.939 know, an employee. I was a contractor when I started at sweetfish two 76 00:05:18.980 --> 00:05:23.529 years ago, and so the rate of change, as well as growth, 77 00:05:23.649 --> 00:05:28.769 has been pretty nonstop in a startup environment like ours. And One thing we've 78 00:05:28.850 --> 00:05:32.170 noticed is that some people love that change, that it's exciting to them, 79 00:05:32.490 --> 00:05:36.399 and others it's like, Oh, the ground is moving beneath my feet and 80 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:40.600 it it makes me anxious and I'm you know, not saying that either one 81 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:46.160 of those personality types is good, bad or better than the other, but 82 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.430 it's something that we've how to recognize. All in all, though, we 83 00:05:49.910 --> 00:05:55.110 do struggle with change to some degree, no matter the personality type. Why 84 00:05:55.350 --> 00:05:59.110 is it that changes is so hard for us? Is it just because of 85 00:05:59.589 --> 00:06:03.230 the speed or there's some things that you have noticed in your research where change 86 00:06:03.339 --> 00:06:08.620 is hard for us regardless, it's just harder when it's faster. Yes, 87 00:06:08.660 --> 00:06:11.699 change is hard for US regardless, and it's harder when it's faster. That's 88 00:06:11.699 --> 00:06:17.019 exactly right. And and what we found there's an underlying condition that's that makes 89 00:06:17.139 --> 00:06:20.529 that more true. So there's a word that was it was only coined about 90 00:06:20.529 --> 00:06:25.689 a hundred years ago, but it describes something that has been going on since. 91 00:06:25.689 --> 00:06:29.170 It's done a time, and the word is home of stasis and it 92 00:06:29.490 --> 00:06:35.480 means the efforts that individuals are, that organisms make to return to a state 93 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:41.199 of equilibrium. So like, for instance, when you're hungry, you eat 94 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:45.079 food right. That returns you to your body, to a state of equilibrium. 95 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:47.949 If you're too hot, you make effort to cool off. You get 96 00:06:47.990 --> 00:06:50.990 in the shade or you go into air conditioning. And you fan yourself because 97 00:06:51.029 --> 00:06:57.069 you want to return yourself to that state of physical equilibrium. We also like 98 00:06:57.350 --> 00:07:02.019 to return ourselves to social and economic equilibrium and this is served us for the 99 00:07:02.139 --> 00:07:05.220 thousands of years there have been human beings. You know, five hundred years 100 00:07:05.220 --> 00:07:10.980 ago, if there was a famine, you wanted to as quickly as possible 101 00:07:11.139 --> 00:07:14.459 get back to where you could grow food and eat and not that starvation. 102 00:07:14.939 --> 00:07:17.129 You know, if there was a war and you were being invaded by the 103 00:07:17.410 --> 00:07:21.610 huns or whatever, as quickly as possible you wanted to get back to like, 104 00:07:21.970 --> 00:07:26.089 okay, nobody's, you know, trying to kill me and I can 105 00:07:26.170 --> 00:07:31.079 go about my business. So that impulse toward homeostasis has served us well for 106 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:35.920 all of our history as human beings. Now it doesn't serve us so well, 107 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:41.319 generally speaking. I mean it still serves as on a physical level, 108 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:44.199 you know, pull yourself off, e's some food, but on a social 109 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:48.189 and economic level it doesn't service as well because generally we're not going back, 110 00:07:48.750 --> 00:07:54.189 we're going forward. The change moves us to a new reality and it's just 111 00:07:54.589 --> 00:08:00.459 disconcerting for us because for thousands of years that impulse to come back to normal 112 00:08:01.060 --> 00:08:03.740 and you can see it in a lot of I don't want to get political, 113 00:08:03.860 --> 00:08:07.779 but a lot of the what are called conservative impulses are coming back to 114 00:08:07.899 --> 00:08:13.569 some previous normal. Let's go back to some previous normal, and that really 115 00:08:13.610 --> 00:08:16.529 doesn't work anymore. It in lack cases it's not even possible. So I 116 00:08:16.810 --> 00:08:22.290 think that that underlying kind of impulse that we've had for thousands of years. 117 00:08:22.970 --> 00:08:26.680 We have to break from that because it doesn't serves. So we have to 118 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.079 figure out, and that's what we'll talk about, this thing that we call 119 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:37.039 the change are. That's what understanding where those impediments are, where homeostasis kicks 120 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:41.509 in so that you can move past them to accept change and move forward and 121 00:08:41.629 --> 00:08:46.110 feel okay operating in new environments. Absolutely, I think that's a good transition 122 00:08:46.269 --> 00:08:50.429 to let's talk a little bit more about that change. Our can unpack that 123 00:08:50.470 --> 00:08:52.950 a little bit and then, from their Ark, I'd love to hear your 124 00:08:52.029 --> 00:08:56.299 perspective of okay, the reality of what this change arc looks like. What 125 00:08:56.379 --> 00:09:01.179 does that mean for individuals who want to make themselves more adaptable and more change 126 00:09:01.259 --> 00:09:03.940 capable, as you put it, and then also what does that mean for 127 00:09:05.059 --> 00:09:09.529 leaders dealing with that reality? Knowing that this is the natural inclination of their 128 00:09:09.690 --> 00:09:13.289 team, but they need to help them move in a different direction. But 129 00:09:13.409 --> 00:09:18.610 first let's unpack this change arc and then move into what individuals and leaders can 130 00:09:18.649 --> 00:09:24.840 do about it. Okay, wonderful. So imagine that you hear about a 131 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:30.720 change and it could be and at the moment we'll just talk about imposed changes 132 00:09:30.759 --> 00:09:35.080 rather than self initiated changes because in post changes are harder and kind of inside 133 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:41.669 our homeostats desertions. So you you're at work and you hear that you're part 134 00:09:41.750 --> 00:09:46.870 of the business is going to be completely reorganized. So the first thing that 135 00:09:46.990 --> 00:09:50.950 happens in this change Ark is what we call proposed change. You want to 136 00:09:52.029 --> 00:09:54.940 know some things. You want to know. The first thing you want to 137 00:09:54.019 --> 00:10:00.980 know is how will this affect me? What does this mean for me? 138 00:10:01.299 --> 00:10:05.059 That's the first thing you want to know. And proposed change. Then you 139 00:10:05.139 --> 00:10:09.649 want to know why is this happening? You want to you want to get 140 00:10:09.690 --> 00:10:13.049 your head around. Is this just some random, dumb thing that doesn't make 141 00:10:13.049 --> 00:10:15.970 any standswer is there an actual Ras and now for having done this right? 142 00:10:16.370 --> 00:10:20.169 And then, and this is really important, you want to have some sense 143 00:10:20.370 --> 00:10:24.000 from the people who are imposing this on you of what the future will look 144 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:30.919 like when this change has happened, because that uncertainty that arises when we think 145 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:33.919 about the proposed change is one of the hardest things for us, because we 146 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:37.509 are used to that homeostasis, urged to go back to something we know and 147 00:10:37.669 --> 00:10:41.429 recognize. And when I was doing research for the book, I found this 148 00:10:41.669 --> 00:10:46.990 fascinating fact, which is that for most people, their deepest fear is fear 149 00:10:48.110 --> 00:10:52.220 of the unknown. So if somebody says we're going to make this change and 150 00:10:52.379 --> 00:10:56.580 it's just and they don't say what it will look like when it's when it's 151 00:10:56.659 --> 00:11:01.500 changed, that just insites our deepest fear. It's like looking into a bottomless 152 00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:05.289 pit. What the heck are you talking about? So those three things, 153 00:11:05.409 --> 00:11:07.370 what does this mean for me, why is it happening and what will look 154 00:11:07.370 --> 00:11:11.169 like when it's done? Those are the first that's the first part of the 155 00:11:11.210 --> 00:11:13.450 change are we want to get some sense of in that, in that first 156 00:11:13.490 --> 00:11:18.840 step of changes being proposed to me. Right. Yeah, yes, thanks, 157 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.039 resonate so much with that. With that fear, Erica, it's something 158 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:24.320 you know. My wife and I have talked about it. It's with this 159 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:28.960 global pandemic going on this year. It seems like the thing that is most 160 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:35.549 pressing down and affecting US emotionally is not necessarily what's new this week or the 161 00:11:35.590 --> 00:11:39.470 changes we have to deal with. It's when does a pandemic end? What 162 00:11:39.549 --> 00:11:41.830 does this look like next year? What does that future look like? And 163 00:11:43.149 --> 00:11:46.309 that kind of, as you said, kind of staring into the bottomless pit. 164 00:11:46.950 --> 00:11:50.139 I think in the people that I talked to within my own family, 165 00:11:50.340 --> 00:11:54.899 within my closed circle, my network, that's what's weighed on people more so 166 00:11:54.980 --> 00:11:58.419 I see the truth and what you're saying there. Yeah, okay, great, 167 00:11:58.539 --> 00:12:03.370 that's a great example. And we, we people, say we're not 168 00:12:03.450 --> 00:12:05.730 going to go people at least recognize most people about the pandemic. We're not. 169 00:12:05.850 --> 00:12:07.970 It's never going to go back to exactly how it was. What is 170 00:12:09.090 --> 00:12:11.889 that new normal? That's that urge to like tell me what it's going to 171 00:12:11.929 --> 00:12:16.720 look like. So we leaders definitely need to address that or we need to 172 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:18.759 address it for ourselves if we want to make ourselves more change capable. So 173 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:22.399 that's step one, step two. If the change are can I love this. 174 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:26.480 This is really the heart of it. Is that in order for someone 175 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:31.950 to accept and move forward in a change behave differently. The change occurs, 176 00:12:31.350 --> 00:12:35.429 they have to make a mindset shift, and here's what I mean by that. 177 00:12:37.350 --> 00:12:39.789 When people, you know people, are going through this kind of what's 178 00:12:39.789 --> 00:12:45.299 The purples change? What will and when they're in that first step of like, 179 00:12:45.379 --> 00:12:46.059 I don't know what this looks like and I don't know what it means, 180 00:12:46.580 --> 00:12:50.019 they their might, and this is so funny. When I say this 181 00:12:50.139 --> 00:12:52.220 to people they go, oh my gosh, I do that all the time. 182 00:12:52.940 --> 00:12:58.049 Their mindset about the chain is that it's going to be difficult, costly 183 00:12:58.330 --> 00:13:03.769 and weird. That's what they're their self talk what they're saying to themselves in 184 00:13:03.850 --> 00:13:05.889 their heads is this is going to be difficult, meaning I don't know how 185 00:13:05.929 --> 00:13:09.889 to do it, nobody's going to support me to do it. What are 186 00:13:09.929 --> 00:13:11.250 the what is it going quite? I don't know, I don't this is 187 00:13:11.330 --> 00:13:13.600 hard, I don't know how to do it. They think it's going to 188 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:18.720 be costly, and it's not just costly in terms of time and effort. 189 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:24.360 It can also be costly in terms of identity, like well, who will 190 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:26.590 I be if I do this, and what will it do to my reputation? 191 00:13:28.029 --> 00:13:31.389 Those kinds of more in touches on our you know, in a loss 192 00:13:31.470 --> 00:13:35.230 of version, that is a very strong motivator, often exactly. And then 193 00:13:35.269 --> 00:13:39.389 the third thing. Weird is it just it's like, Whoa, it just 194 00:13:39.629 --> 00:13:43.820 feels a natural. That's I never oh, we don't, that's not how 195 00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:50.179 we operate. Right, and you and when people are resisting in themselves change, 196 00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:54.899 they just keep talking to themselves in that way. All this is going 197 00:13:54.899 --> 00:13:56.049 to be difficult, it's going to be costly, it's going to be weird. 198 00:13:56.169 --> 00:14:01.570 Right, so, in order to come to the point of being capable 199 00:14:01.570 --> 00:14:05.649 of making this change, you have to and leaders can help people do it, 200 00:14:05.769 --> 00:14:09.080 but really it's an internal thing. You have to move to a mindset 201 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:13.600 of Oh, I can see how this would be easy or at least doable, 202 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:18.519 how it will be rewarding, the ways in which we rewarding. It 203 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.279 may be costly, but there are ways in which it will be rewarding and 204 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:28.909 I could see how this could be normal. And as soon as you can 205 00:14:28.950 --> 00:14:33.789 shift your mindset primarily to where you're talking to yourself about how this will be 206 00:14:33.990 --> 00:14:39.539 easy or at least doable, rewarding and normal and away from the difficult, 207 00:14:39.539 --> 00:14:43.100 costly and weird, and it's not that you're not acknowledging that. It's just 208 00:14:43.340 --> 00:14:48.779 that you're moving your mind towards looking at how it could be easy, rewarding 209 00:14:48.860 --> 00:14:52.570 and normal. As soon as you're in that point set, then you can 210 00:14:52.649 --> 00:14:58.330 start to behave differently in the ways that the change requires. And the change 211 00:14:58.409 --> 00:15:01.889 of curves. Yea, I mean it's like each one of those is two 212 00:15:01.090 --> 00:15:05.009 sides to the same coin, you know, difficult but easy and doable, 213 00:15:05.649 --> 00:15:11.360 costly to rewarding, weird to normal. So that totally makes sense. How 214 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:13.080 do you how do you show the other side of the coin, or the 215 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:18.279 other half of the glass? Right, as the old saying goes awesome. 216 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:20.279 So, Erica, there's the proposed change, how people are dealing with that. 217 00:15:20.669 --> 00:15:24.429 There is the mindset shift that has to occur because, as that self 218 00:15:24.549 --> 00:15:28.389 talk continues, you either go down this path or you go down the other 219 00:15:28.549 --> 00:15:31.950 in each of those three areas. What's then, the third step to this 220 00:15:33.070 --> 00:15:37.620 change arc? The third step is new behaviors. Once your mindset has shifted, 221 00:15:37.779 --> 00:15:41.500 you can do the new behaviors that are required, and in some cases 222 00:15:41.659 --> 00:15:46.940 those new behaviors are very easy and obvious, like the one example I always 223 00:15:46.940 --> 00:15:52.090 use now is wearing masks. Right what's in it for me? Why should 224 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:54.850 I do it? What will look like if I do to it? And 225 00:15:54.970 --> 00:15:58.450 then even now you can the people who refuse to wear masks. They keep 226 00:15:58.529 --> 00:16:02.850 talking about why it's difficult, why it's costly, why it's weird, and 227 00:16:03.570 --> 00:16:06.759 the people who are doing it are like that's not that hard, I can 228 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:08.919 do it. I just made or bottom mask and I'm kind of used to 229 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:12.399 it and the reward is I'm not killing other people, they're not killing me. 230 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:17.440 That's good. And I look around, people in my state are wearing 231 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:19.789 masks. It seems pretty normal, and so I do the new behavior, 232 00:16:19.870 --> 00:16:22.750 which is very simple. I wear a mask when I can't social distance. 233 00:16:23.429 --> 00:16:26.950 Sometimes I can speak to that because I know that when I was wearing a 234 00:16:27.110 --> 00:16:32.470 mask, maybe a little bit before it was widespread, there were state mandates, 235 00:16:32.509 --> 00:16:36.100 all that sort of thing, it felt weird because I felt like I 236 00:16:36.340 --> 00:16:38.460 was the weird one who was wearing the mask. Now, when I see 237 00:16:38.899 --> 00:16:42.899 pretty much everyone wearing a mask, it doesn't feel as weird. So just 238 00:16:44.059 --> 00:16:48.490 thinking through my own mindset shift in that area with the example that you shared, 239 00:16:48.889 --> 00:16:52.090 I definitely resonate with that. Okay, great, and I want to 240 00:16:52.129 --> 00:16:56.929 pick up on something you said, because it's important to it's so normal is 241 00:16:56.970 --> 00:17:03.240 a big motivator for people, and normal means people I admire and want to 242 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:07.200 emulate do something and people who I think of as being like me do something. 243 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:12.119 And that's why it's so important to get critical masks on an important change, 244 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:18.869 because when enough people start doing a new behavior that it feels biggest, 245 00:17:18.869 --> 00:17:22.670 to feel normal to the people who have still thought it was weird, that 246 00:17:22.990 --> 00:17:27.789 really helps the change to happen organizationally or socially in a larger context. Sometimes 247 00:17:27.910 --> 00:17:33.660 in organizations the new behaviors required are much more complex than just putting on a 248 00:17:33.740 --> 00:17:37.099 mask. But when, if you like, for instance, let's say in 249 00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:41.299 an organization, you want all your sales people to start using a new report 250 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:47.849 in sales force and us and you believe that if they all do that, 251 00:17:48.210 --> 00:17:51.650 it will make it much easier for them to follow up on leads and to 252 00:17:51.769 --> 00:17:55.289 close new sales. That's the why, and you know, if we all 253 00:17:55.369 --> 00:17:57.130 do it, then we'll here's how it all look and people are like, 254 00:17:57.289 --> 00:18:02.519 ah, I don't want to do that, that's hard and that's not really 255 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:06.720 who I am and it's weird. Nobody's doing it right when you can get 256 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:10.839 your salespeople to think, okay, it's doable, it's rewarding, I can 257 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:12.349 I get the rewards. I said, it's pretty normal. We're starting to 258 00:18:12.390 --> 00:18:17.269 do it. Then the new behavior isn't just obvious. You actually have to 259 00:18:17.309 --> 00:18:19.990 teach people to do the new behavior. So that's what I mean. Often 260 00:18:21.069 --> 00:18:26.710 new behaviors that are required by change in organization are more complex, require resources, 261 00:18:26.789 --> 00:18:30.539 require teaching. But the change Ark is still important because what happens often 262 00:18:30.819 --> 00:18:37.380 is leaders try to teach people to do the new behaviors before they've attended, 263 00:18:37.619 --> 00:18:42.009 to propose change and mindset shift, and then it just bounces off. They're 264 00:18:42.049 --> 00:18:45.369 like, well, why aren't people doing this? Damn report and sales force. 265 00:18:45.690 --> 00:18:49.250 Well, they're still back thinking that it's difficult and costly and weird. 266 00:18:49.369 --> 00:18:55.920 You have to help them make that shift before they're available to learn the new 267 00:18:55.960 --> 00:19:00.440 behavior. That's a really good example about change management within a sales organization. 268 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.480 Erica. All right, so we've handled proposed change, the mindset shift that 269 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:07.440 you either need to go through or you need to help facilitate as a leader 270 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:11.910 the new behaviors. What's the fourth and final step in the change arc? 271 00:19:12.430 --> 00:19:18.109 Change a curse, and it's so important to recognize that that step for because 272 00:19:18.990 --> 00:19:22.589 one thing that happens in organizations, and this is really important, is that 273 00:19:23.740 --> 00:19:30.220 generally speaking, leaders go through their own change are pretty early in the process. 274 00:19:30.859 --> 00:19:33.859 A change is proposed, let's say by the CEO, and the senior 275 00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:37.859 team goes through exactly what we've been talking about. Well, what does that 276 00:19:37.940 --> 00:19:40.130 mean for me and why is it happening? What will it look like? 277 00:19:40.369 --> 00:19:44.289 And that'll be hard and costly. Okay, okay, I see. Then 278 00:19:44.369 --> 00:19:48.130 they turn to their people and they forget that they had to go through that 279 00:19:48.289 --> 00:19:53.440 arc and they expect their people to be ready right now. Is the minute 280 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:57.240 it comes out of my mouth to you my people, to do the new 281 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:00.920 behaviors and change will occur. And then they get very impatient and they start 282 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:06.480 calling their people change resistant and troglodytes and old fashioned. It's like no, 283 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:11.109 no, no, they have to go through exactly the same thing that you 284 00:20:11.509 --> 00:20:15.230 had to go through. So are the change mottle that we propose when you're 285 00:20:15.230 --> 00:20:22.180 doing organizational changes kind of is that real large is this cast dating of supporting 286 00:20:22.259 --> 00:20:26.539 everybody who needs to in the organization to go through their changer? So that 287 00:20:26.660 --> 00:20:30.779 that sad thing doesn't happen where, you know, leaders go tedda, we're 288 00:20:30.819 --> 00:20:36.250 changing today. There was like, wait, what, why is this happening? 289 00:20:36.289 --> 00:20:37.809 What does it mean to me? What is it going to look like? 290 00:20:37.930 --> 00:20:38.930 And they're like not, I don't know, just change. I explain 291 00:20:40.009 --> 00:20:44.170 everything to you in last five minutes. Right. That's so good and it's 292 00:20:44.170 --> 00:20:48.769 another great point, Erica. You have to you have to address those questions, 293 00:20:48.009 --> 00:20:52.400 that self talk that's going on within your team. You have to recognize 294 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:56.640 the mindset shift that you yourself had to go through and deploy a little empathy 295 00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:03.640 to your team, right and recognize that you can't ask them to do something 296 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:06.950 that you weren't willing to do. Now, those in leadership often times, 297 00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:11.869 especially in high growth companies, are maybe by default that personality type that I 298 00:21:11.910 --> 00:21:17.029 mentioned that does thrive and get excited a little bit more by change, whereas 299 00:21:17.069 --> 00:21:19.980 the rest of the team may tend to lean the other way. So that's 300 00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:22.779 where that empathy, I think, has to go a little bit further than 301 00:21:22.819 --> 00:21:26.099 we typically do, because, I mean, worst case scenario, you don't 302 00:21:26.140 --> 00:21:30.059 deploy any empathy and you say, just like you said, why isn't the 303 00:21:30.140 --> 00:21:33.970 new behavior happening and you skipped, you know, step one and step two 304 00:21:33.970 --> 00:21:37.329 and all that self talk and addressing those questions. I think the the middle 305 00:21:37.410 --> 00:21:42.490 ground where a lot of leaders just take don't take one step further. That 306 00:21:42.609 --> 00:21:47.759 could help them is giving their team a little bit more time than they gave 307 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:51.480 themselves, just showing a little bit more grace, a little bit more empathy 308 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:56.839 towards a team member who falls on the other end of the spectrum maybe when 309 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:00.630 it comes to managing change internally Areka. A lot of this, just as 310 00:22:00.670 --> 00:22:04.670 I mentioned, kind of rings true with our own experience here at sweet fish 311 00:22:04.710 --> 00:22:08.349 and I think there's going to be lessons for our team, our leadership team. 312 00:22:08.670 --> 00:22:11.670 Some of the things you know, going back to my question earlier, 313 00:22:11.710 --> 00:22:15.420 I think you kind of hit on them throughout. For leaders, some of 314 00:22:15.460 --> 00:22:19.299 the notes that I took that you have to be aware of the questions people 315 00:22:19.299 --> 00:22:23.339 are going to ask the moment that you propose change and know that they might 316 00:22:23.380 --> 00:22:27.420 not ask those verbally. They might be just asking themselves, you know, 317 00:22:27.539 --> 00:22:30.329 what does this mean for me? Why is it changing and what will the 318 00:22:30.410 --> 00:22:36.210 future look like? Recognize the mindset shift that is going to need to occur 319 00:22:36.369 --> 00:22:38.690 and do some coaching through that. What are some other things, as we 320 00:22:38.769 --> 00:22:42.529 round out the conversation to today, Erica, that you think of for leaders, 321 00:22:42.569 --> 00:22:47.680 whether they're in sales, marketing executive leadership, they need to keep in 322 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:52.519 mind now that they have this definitive for step process to managing change, in 323 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:56.640 addition to those that I mentioned, what would be some of your parting thoughts 324 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:02.230 and words of advice for leaders out there? So I think the most useful 325 00:23:02.670 --> 00:23:06.789 thing I can do are the next couple minutes is kind of take pull the 326 00:23:06.869 --> 00:23:11.430 camera back to the next levels. So this change assumed that this change arc 327 00:23:11.549 --> 00:23:14.940 is something everybody goes through. Some people go through it quickly, some people 328 00:23:15.019 --> 00:23:18.900 take a long time, some people like change and don't have a strong urge, 329 00:23:18.940 --> 00:23:22.339 sort home stasis, so they quickly go to easy, rewarding normal. 330 00:23:22.420 --> 00:23:25.859 Yeah, let's do it. So it's important to recognize that. But if 331 00:23:25.940 --> 00:23:30.369 you kind of back it up, are our five step model for putting a 332 00:23:30.529 --> 00:23:37.490 whole organization, helping a whole organization move through change, which acknowledges this individual 333 00:23:37.930 --> 00:23:41.799 movement through the change are the first thing is you have to clarify the change 334 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:45.880 and why it's needed. So and the second step is envision the future state. 335 00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:53.440 So that's responding to that proposed change need. But usually that happens with 336 00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:57.470 what we call the change instigators, the people ordinarily at the top of the 337 00:23:57.549 --> 00:24:03.789 organization in a large organization or at the in the part of the organization that 338 00:24:03.910 --> 00:24:07.950 needs to change. They really need to get clear like what is this change, 339 00:24:08.509 --> 00:24:12.099 why is it happening, and then what will it look like when it's 340 00:24:12.099 --> 00:24:15.859 done? So those are the first couple of steps. You have to the 341 00:24:15.980 --> 00:24:18.819 people who want to drive the change have to get very clear about that. 342 00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:23.450 Then the third step is to build the change, and that means who were 343 00:24:23.569 --> 00:24:26.289 going to be the people that are going to drive it through the organization, 344 00:24:26.569 --> 00:24:32.369 the change team, and literally what will it require? What's the change plan? 345 00:24:32.890 --> 00:24:37.490 The new CRM, the reorganizing the finance function, that you know what 346 00:24:37.690 --> 00:24:41.680 is actually the change it's going to happen, and make a real project plan 347 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:45.759 for doing that. I imagine part of that third step there, as you 348 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:48.920 mentioned, kind of back to our mask analogy, is that when we're getting 349 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:52.630 away from weird and we're saying okay, this can be normal, we're looking 350 00:24:52.710 --> 00:24:56.349 to those that we respect and we're looking to our peers. So is an 351 00:24:56.390 --> 00:25:02.470 important part of this third step, finding those champions who will be the peers 352 00:25:02.630 --> 00:25:06.470 that others look to as the example. Yes, yes, yes, that's 353 00:25:06.470 --> 00:25:10.579 exactly right. One of the criteria for the change team is that they have 354 00:25:10.859 --> 00:25:15.099 credibility, that they have broad credibility in the organization. So if they're saying 355 00:25:15.140 --> 00:25:18.059 do this, people are more likely say, okay, I'll at least take 356 00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:22.250 another consideration. And then the fourth step we call lead the transition. So 357 00:25:22.369 --> 00:25:27.369 it's both doing the change plan, you know, on a practical nuts and 358 00:25:27.450 --> 00:25:33.809 bolts level, and supporting this is where you're sharing what the change and the 359 00:25:33.809 --> 00:25:36.559 change plan and why it apple in the future is going to look like with 360 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:41.519 broadly in the organization. So you both have to enact the change plan and 361 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.559 lead people through their change arc and there are lots of ways we've figured out 362 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:51.710 how to do that, how to help people go more quickly to easy, 363 00:25:51.829 --> 00:25:56.269 rewarding normal and that. You know, it's interesting. There's so much research 364 00:25:56.470 --> 00:26:03.539 that shows that what large organization change often fails and that it most often fails 365 00:26:03.940 --> 00:26:07.579 because of lack of attention to what people call the human side, the people's 366 00:26:07.619 --> 00:26:14.019 side, which is leading people, humans, individual humans, through their change 367 00:26:14.019 --> 00:26:18.339 art so if you can, at the same time that you're practically enacting the 368 00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:22.250 change, really attend to helping the people in the organization, especially those most 369 00:26:22.289 --> 00:26:26.089 affected by the change, through their change arc, that it's much more likely 370 00:26:26.130 --> 00:26:30.369 to be successful. And then the fifth step is make the change last. 371 00:26:32.089 --> 00:26:34.920 So how do you measure it? How do you assess it? How do 372 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:41.160 you reinforce it? What do you do to make the organization stay in the 373 00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:45.200 new mode rather than drift back, which also often happens, and at the 374 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:49.470 same time looking for Wayson that step five, to make the organization and the 375 00:26:49.509 --> 00:26:55.349 people win. Then it more permanently change capable. So when the next change 376 00:26:55.390 --> 00:26:57.630 inevitably comes along, which could be right, then, as you're doing the 377 00:26:57.750 --> 00:27:02.180 last one, they're they're ready, they're capable, they know how to move 378 00:27:02.220 --> 00:27:06.019 forward and they're also not pointing back to the last one and saying, well, 379 00:27:06.099 --> 00:27:08.180 we went through all this work and it didn't stick anyway. How are 380 00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:11.180 you going to convince me that this is going to last as well? So 381 00:27:11.660 --> 00:27:15.569 it sounds like, okay, you start with clarify, you help people envision 382 00:27:15.609 --> 00:27:19.650 the future, you build the change, which starts with that core team and 383 00:27:21.089 --> 00:27:23.890 those folks who will be the the evangelist and kind of setting their kind of 384 00:27:23.970 --> 00:27:29.329 like the early adopters, for you know, as a start up thinks externally, 385 00:27:29.410 --> 00:27:33.279 but your internal early adopters step for leading the transition is really where you 386 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:41.039 dig into the individuals for parts of their change Ar can you address those on 387 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:44.549 the human side, as you mentioned? And then five, making it last. 388 00:27:45.230 --> 00:27:48.190 What's your top tip there, if you had one thing for someone that 389 00:27:48.309 --> 00:27:51.349 says, Hey, we're going through this right now and I'm on step five. 390 00:27:51.549 --> 00:27:55.269 We're trying to make something last and we've done a pretty good job of 391 00:27:55.670 --> 00:27:59.299 the first four steps. What's your top piece of advice for someone in that 392 00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:03.460 fifth stage? Erica, the most important thing is a wonderful question. The 393 00:28:03.539 --> 00:28:08.019 most important thing is to measure the right things, like when, when you're 394 00:28:08.180 --> 00:28:11.940 looking at the change, it's like, okay, what? Let's go back 395 00:28:11.180 --> 00:28:15.490 to why we're doing it, which is the first step, and are those 396 00:28:15.529 --> 00:28:22.289 things happening? Are Those wise being fulfilled, our desired results happening? Let's 397 00:28:22.329 --> 00:28:26.490 measure, let's look at them and if they're not, let's be very objective 398 00:28:26.490 --> 00:28:30.480 about what's getting in the way so we can address it, so to really 399 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.079 be clear about is it doing what we wanted it to do and, if 400 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:36.559 not, what can we do to make it do what we wanted it to 401 00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:38.920 do? I love it, Erica. That's a great way to wrap up 402 00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:44.430 the conversation today. I really appreciate this. I love a good framework and 403 00:28:44.509 --> 00:28:48.109 you've given us, you know, not only the four phases of the change 404 00:28:48.190 --> 00:28:52.670 arc from an individual level, but five steps as a leader or as an 405 00:28:52.789 --> 00:28:59.220 organization to help people through that and manage change more broadly. If anybody listening 406 00:28:59.299 --> 00:29:02.819 to this has gotten as much value out of the conversation as I have and 407 00:29:02.900 --> 00:29:07.579 they want to stay connected with you, find any of your books or stay 408 00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:10.809 connected with the Proteus team, what's the best way for them to reach out 409 00:29:10.849 --> 00:29:14.130 or dig a little bit deeper? Erica, I think two ways. One 410 00:29:14.329 --> 00:29:18.369 is our website, is Proteus internationalcom, and it has all what we do 411 00:29:18.609 --> 00:29:22.170 and about my books. And then I would love it if your listeners want 412 00:29:22.250 --> 00:29:25.799 to follow me on twitter, and I was an early a doctor, so 413 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.279 my twitter handle is just at Erica Anderson, with an EAN Erica Anderson. 414 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:34.720 That is nice. You definitely you know common name there and so pointing out 415 00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:38.710 that early a doctor. I Love Erica. Well, this has been fantastic. 416 00:29:38.829 --> 00:29:41.670 Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. Erica so 417 00:29:45.910 --> 00:29:51.029 is the decisionmaker for your product or service a BB marketer? Are you looking 418 00:29:51.069 --> 00:29:56.500 to reach those buyers through the medium of podcasting? Considered becoming a cohost of 419 00:29:56.660 --> 00:30:00.099 BB growth? This show is consistently ranked as a top one hundred podcast in 420 00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:04.059 the marketing category of Apple Podcasts, and the show gets more than a hundred 421 00:30:04.099 --> 00:30:08.890 and thirty thousand downloads each month. We've already done the work of building the 422 00:30:08.970 --> 00:30:14.769 audience, so you can focus on delivering incredible content to our listeners. If 423 00:30:14.809 --> 00:30:18.170 you're interested, email logan at sweetfish Mediacom.