Effective Win/Loss Interviews, with Tirrah Switzer

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:13.279 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be to be growth. 2 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:21.399 Today I am joined by Tara Sweitzer. She is the senior director of product 3 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:26.679 marketing at community brands and we actually connected through like a mutual friend and a 4 00:00:26.679 --> 00:00:31.239 friend of the show now, Tara pollock, who was recently on b Tob 5 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:34.039 Growth and she spoke very highly of you. So I'm glad to have you 6 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:38.159 here. Tia, I'm excited to be here. Thanks so much for having 7 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:42.240 me. For sure I'll tell our listeners where we're going and then we'll back 8 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:45.479 it up and hear a little bit about your role. But today really what 9 00:00:45.479 --> 00:00:50.719 we want to talk about is when loss interviews and all that can be gained 10 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:55.039 from having those conversations if they're done right. I think it can sort of 11 00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:57.960 be a pull your hair out situation if you don't know how to have them 12 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:02.679 effectively, and we want to help guide how those can go and options that 13 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:04.200 we have beyond maybe just thinking we have to take it on. So we'll 14 00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:07.840 get there in a minute. Tell me a little bit about your role and 15 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:12.400 what you like most about the work you're doing at community brands right now. 16 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:19.120 Awesome. So I lead our product marketing and proposal team for our Association and 17 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:26.480 Events Division here at community brands. So we are a team of about six 18 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:33.879 product marketers and to content and propose soul managers, and we manage everything from 19 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:40.239 when loss go to market buy, our support, competitive enablement, our FPS, 20 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:49.719 etc. For about thirteen products. But really our team ultimately exist to 21 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:55.599 drive product and Revenue Growth and help our team win more. And so I 22 00:01:55.599 --> 00:02:00.560 think we are doing some awesome things with when loss, with competitive and ablement. 23 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:07.480 So really helping our team when more is really exciting things that we're working 24 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:12.159 on at community brands. For sure, it's a lot to keep track of 25 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:15.400 and that's a lot of products as well. So, like, your not 26 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:20.439 short of things to do and it can be hard to know where. Like 27 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:23.360 going back to where we want to go today. That when lost, like 28 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:25.400 conversation, it's just seems like it's another thing on the plate, like Oh, 29 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:30.120 we know someone should do this, we should go talk to, you 30 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:35.360 know, potential customers, we should talk to those that decided us why they 31 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:39.080 did decide us. But that's a daunting task. What sort of made you 32 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:46.120 originally passionate about this win loss interview? So really, you know, the 33 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:53.800 simplest way to find out how you wont someone over or you lost a customer, 34 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:59.000 potential customer, is to really just ask them right direct to the source 35 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:07.479 exactly. But sales reps don't always get the real answer from prospects. You 36 00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:10.680 know, I feel like we all inherently want to be nice, right. 37 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:15.400 We don't want to hurt someone's feelings. HMM. So, no matter what, 38 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:22.599 prospects have formed this relationship with their sales rep and vice versa, and 39 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:27.800 especially if you're in an enterprise deal, that's what six, nine, twelve 40 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:32.319 months you formed this relationship. So it's kind of hard to tell someone like 41 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:38.560 hey, like your you, I really sucked, or well, you didn't 42 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:44.919 really tell me why you're the best product for an organization. So the data 43 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:53.039 collected from win loss interview from a third party really helps with unbiased feedback, 44 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:58.639 because if you're not talking to the sales rep, it's a lot harder to 45 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:01.560 just not be like Oh, price or I'm going to completely ghost you, 46 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:09.000 piece out and never talk to you again. And so the those interviews provides 47 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:14.960 the real root cause of wins and losses and to me I find that just 48 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:21.439 fascinating. And also when you look at how it differs from what was actually 49 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:30.160 entered into the crm. Yep, it's you would need like both the potential 50 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:34.079 customer and the REP to be like the perfect personality type for it to work 51 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:38.399 in that situation, and we kind of bank on that. And a lot 52 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:42.000 of organizations where you're just hoping that the person is going to be honest and 53 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:44.879 you're hoping that the REP could ask the right question or take it in the 54 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:48.680 right way or have the emotional intelligence that I kee like there's a lot that 55 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:53.240 goes into this process that I think we take for granted or we just you 56 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:56.399 know, we're all busy, we don't have time, like something's better than 57 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:59.800 nothing. We slap something together and like that's kind of our system now. 58 00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:01.879 So I want us to try to optimize this and make it the best it 59 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:05.720 can be. I know we're all in slightly different situations. Let's talk about 60 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:12.360 your situation specifically, like were you tasked with this or was it something that 61 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:15.040 you started getting like passionate about bringing and going, okay, this is something 62 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:19.319 we want to focus on. How did this become your thing? So I 63 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:24.639 would say, you know, we've we've evolved our win loss program in house. 64 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:29.519 We did like an inhouse doii program. Now we're doing one managed by 65 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:33.720 a third party. Yep. But for me personally, when loss interviews was 66 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:39.920 just this like thing I really wanted to do personally, not only for like 67 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:44.279 the business, but also career development. It just sew there was this like 68 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:49.519 treasure show of information that we're completely missing out on. So one of the 69 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:54.600 things that it actually attracted me to community brands was it was part of the 70 00:05:54.680 --> 00:06:00.680 job description. They had a priority to have a win loss program and so 71 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:08.240 when I first started, one of my jobs was to build an inhouse program 72 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:12.279 from scratch. For we're just one product, like not, you know, 73 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:17.240 for everyone and and their brother. Just one product, you know, simply 74 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:23.480 work with sales, get a list, reach out to some folks, have 75 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:30.040 a conversation and boom, knowledge gained. Yeah, I think that's great. 76 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:31.639 I mean I love that you all wanted to do this, even just as 77 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:35.519 like a career development thing. I you had me thinking for a second I 78 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:39.600 should put this on my linkedin. But there was a time in my life 79 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:45.439 where I was calling, like at a previous employer. I was calling for 80 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:50.680 like boats that got bad reviews and I would call the customer directly and I 81 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:55.600 basically had did the interview to just basically try to get their score eventually to 82 00:06:55.600 --> 00:06:58.959 be higher for their rating, because they left like a bad rating. But 83 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:01.680 it was interesting to talk to them and because I was a third party and 84 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:04.120 was caught, I would have to say, I was calling on behalf of 85 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:08.360 but they knew I was outside of it, so they would just tell me 86 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:13.480 straight up exactly what happened and you gain so much more insight and you realize 87 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.839 like Oh, even like they we didn't necessarily company didn't leave like this horrible 88 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:21.040 impression in their mind. There was just these little things that if we had 89 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:25.040 tweaked we could have, you know, won them over as a customer. 90 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:29.319 I wouldn't have been such a bad experience. So it's interesting the insights you 91 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:32.399 learn from these conversations and I was so cool that you just like chose to 92 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:36.160 take it on. Okay, you ran into some roadblocks and I want to 93 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:41.040 go there for a second, because this didn't go super easy and that's part 94 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:45.120 of why you decide to go third party. Talk a bit about as you 95 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:47.639 start doing these reach outs, like what are those calls like, because essentially 96 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:53.720 it is it's cold calling. What was that experience for you in reality. 97 00:07:54.720 --> 00:08:01.240 So I definitely went into it being so naive. I was like, Oh, 98 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:03.920 like, I have this list of people, I'm going to reach out 99 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:05.600 to them, they're going to totally want to talk to me. They're going 100 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:09.839 to be like Yay, wait, want to help make you better. No, 101 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:13.160 no, that is like I was living in polly and a world or 102 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:18.759 something. But that, yes, it's not how it goes. So what 103 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:24.040 I found was that you really needed like three big things to be successful. 104 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:31.160 You needed time, resources and skills. So, like we talked earlier, 105 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.840 you know, if you have a product marketing team that's more kind of generalist, 106 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:41.399 like we are here at community brands, you know they're working on messaging, 107 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:46.480 release, communication, falling competitors, you know when loss is just one 108 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:52.000 more thing competing with priorities and time, and you have to have this like 109 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:58.879 really great incentive, like people don't want to just chat with you and like 110 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:03.519 ten and twenty five dollars is not the thing either, like you got to 111 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:07.960 make an investment in it. And then lastly is that you had to have 112 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:16.000 great interview skills. It's a different beast of an interview and I feel like 113 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:20.600 there's a ton of best practices out there. Right, you can find out 114 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:26.039 what questions you should ask. What's a template I should use to like invite 115 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:31.320 someone to the interview, like here's kind of how you should maybe structure your 116 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:37.080 incentive. But it is Wal. It's just not that easy. Yep, 117 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:41.440 it's interesting in that journey because you're going, okay, so I'm going to 118 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:45.799 cold call. Definitely not everyone's going to answer. In fact, the small, 119 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.600 small number of people are going to answer out of a ton of cold 120 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:52.440 calls. Let's say I eventually get that person on the phone. Now that's 121 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:56.840 might be the first time I'm running this script and asking these questions. So 122 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:01.000 you're going to be nervous. Then you ask the questions, but you also 123 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:05.519 have to have a team of people that can actually draw out the insights after 124 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:11.200 you have this. So it's not as simple as like exactly what you said. 125 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:15.279 It's not just best practices, it's the right type of person who could 126 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:18.320 execute on it and has the mental bandwidth to be able to do this. 127 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.200 Well, again, we're making it seem like the barrier to entry is very 128 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:24.200 high. In some ways. I think we should raise the bar like we're 129 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:28.120 saying. Most people think they're doing this and there's a way that you can 130 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.840 say you're doing it, but there's a better way. Is going to take 131 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:35.360 more effort, it's going to take more time. As someone who does interviews 132 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:39.200 all the time, this is I know this has to be a very different 133 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.919 type of animal. This is a different this is different beast, because drawing 134 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:48.360 out insights that then help drive the business forward, that in and of itself 135 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:54.080 is something that would take tremendous brain power. Yes, you know, like 136 00:10:54.159 --> 00:11:00.360 you do an interview for podcast, like you're you're obviously talking to people passionate 137 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:05.320 about a topic. Yep, you're interviewing someone for a job. You're like, 138 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:09.039 they're selling themselves. You know, you want this like company culture, 139 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:15.519 fit and skill set, even a case study interview. You're talking to customers. 140 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:20.799 You you're a product expert. You you know they love you, even 141 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.960 if they're going to complain and tell you what they hate about you, they're 142 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:28.799 going to do it, and this like super nice way, whereas with win 143 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:35.840 loss you have to like pull information out of folks and sometimes it's emotion based, 144 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.360 like how did you feel in the sales process, how did you feel 145 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:48.120 in the demo? And with win loss you have some folks who straight up 146 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:52.000 do not like you. They did not like your product, they did not 147 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:56.919 like your sales room, they did not like one bit about you, and 148 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:00.960 they called on a bad day. Oh yeah, and they have no problem 149 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:05.480 telling you. MMM. So with when loss to get that unbiased feedback, 150 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:11.279 like you also have to have, like for me, when I you can 151 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:16.000 always tell those interviews. So when you read the transcript, like even my 152 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:22.159 like Mama Bear and stint comes out like I want to protect my teammates and 153 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:26.480 my product and my company. Like what do you back it on up? 154 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:31.080 Like, what are you so upset about? Yeah, so it's just that 155 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:39.639 unbiased feedback gets definitely harder when you're part of the organization. Okay, so 156 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:43.279 what ends up happening is then, like budget times approaching and you're going this 157 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:48.159 has to be a main focus for us. We need someone. Let's bring 158 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:52.440 somebody in, third party who can facilitate these conversations. What let's do this? 159 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:58.240 Let's talk about some of what you brought in a company called close. 160 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:01.600 I would say maybe they should sponsor this episode. They didn't, though. 161 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:05.399 We're not like just saying you have to hire them, but what draws you 162 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:07.679 to them and and then let's go to some of the results you've seen from 163 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:13.080 this process. So when I did it, Dyi and house, you know, 164 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:20.200 I reached out to probably sixty people. I got a handful of responses, 165 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:26.120 I got no shows, I got one interview. MMM, that completely 166 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:31.720 flopped. I could not pull anything out of this woman, like nothing. 167 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:37.600 And then you just have all these time things, you know, like competing 168 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:43.840 priorities. So I was like we have to like hire someone else to do 169 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:46.799 this, like if we want the information, we have to outsource, like 170 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:52.559 it's just not going to happen in house. So budget time came and I 171 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:56.840 had been like talking about this for a while and I was like look, 172 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:01.279 if I can only have one request, like this is my one request, 173 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:03.799 like I want to do it, I want to try it, like let's 174 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:09.240 see the results. And so we went shopping. But one of the what 175 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:16.679 really drew me to close the vendor that we chose was their interview methodology. 176 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:24.759 So they had really documented processes about how they interview, why they interview, 177 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:28.720 use interview questions that they do. You know, they have this like massive 178 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:35.240 training for their consultants. Our consultant is amazing, not going to say his 179 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:39.759 name, so nobody steals them. And the other thing that I also loved 180 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:46.200 was that the material that they provided back to you, so the transcripts, 181 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:52.360 that insights from when loss was in this just super easy to use format and 182 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:58.759 easy to understand. So I could read the entire transcript if I wanted to. 183 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.399 So you get to see everyone's alms and they're like, you know, 184 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:09.960 we're nervous. Ticks that they do in totalization, which is fun to read. 185 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:15.480 But also you can filter it like hey, we did ten interviews for 186 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:20.360 this product and price came up this many times. Here's quotes that go along 187 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:26.919 with price, or maybe it was product functionality or support or whatever. You 188 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:30.639 know, you can easily filter it. You can filter it by competitors, 189 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:35.639 like here's WHO's coming up the most. So just super easy to understand, 190 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.720 really easy to present two executives of like here's what we did, hear the 191 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:46.360 results that we saw, and then it was easy for us to say our 192 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:50.759 next steps are x, Y Z yeah, which is ultimately what you want 193 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.960 from the windlass interview when you're thinking of bringing a third third party. I 194 00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.399 know a lot of the pushback and why people get hesitant with it is going 195 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.639 like they don't really know the product or offering well enough. Maybe we should 196 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:07.840 have one of our own people like in the room, because that could potentially 197 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:11.559 again, if you had the right person, could make it extremely convenient because 198 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:15.720 they are in your organization day in a day out. Most people don't have 199 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:22.120 that person. So how did they ensure that that transition was smooth and that 200 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:26.879 they really understood your language and what you were going for? So we started 201 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:33.360 with just one product. We met with their team as well as ours. 202 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:38.279 We gave a demo of the product, we discussed why we thought we want, 203 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:45.120 why we lost, we discussed our product, differentiators are competitors, and 204 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:51.279 then we gave just some kind of like key lingo. So for us, 205 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:56.399 people are going to say ams, that is association management software, or they 206 00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:03.159 may mention you know, they're going to talk in acronyms, because everyone calls 207 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:07.680 refers to themselves as an acronym. So we just we went through those things 208 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:12.240 together and we did it. We also invited different people on our team so 209 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:17.680 it wasn't just product marketing. So we made sure that we had a sales 210 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:23.599 rep and a demandgin marketer from every product to be part of the process. 211 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:32.079 So they helped us develop the interview guide know what information was important, like 212 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:37.480 what information we wanted to get out of the prospect not only from a sales 213 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:42.920 perspective, but demand gin product marketing, and product marketing just ended up representing 214 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.880 product as well. But all those stakeholders were involved to make sure we got 215 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:55.880 the best information, and it was actually really good that they weren't hugely burst 216 00:17:55.880 --> 00:18:00.640 in everything, because then they could dig in. Like, you know, 217 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:07.119 I may have just ignored something because I knew what that functionality meant or I 218 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:12.279 could make an assumption based on it, whereas the interviewers like, why don't 219 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:17.400 you tell me more about that, like what do you mean? Yep, 220 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:21.160 YEP, and there's no assumption on the person that's being interviewed, like Oh, 221 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:23.480 if this is a third party, I might actually like they might overcommunicate 222 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:26.960 and explain because I meant, Oh, they I don't know if they know, 223 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.119 like what's going on here. So that could see on both sides, 224 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.279 like communication gets better, not worse, because they're both trying to overcommunicate. 225 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:37.759 Okay, well, let's highlight a couple of the key findings in this process 226 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:42.119 and then how it changed your thinking or decisionmaking moving forward. What would you 227 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:48.720 highlight as is key findings from this? So I loved, like all of 228 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:53.880 our findings that we've done for every product, and each one has revealed totally 229 00:18:53.880 --> 00:19:00.960 different findings, hmm. And so new, different insights for every single product. 230 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:06.400 So, for instance, we know for one product our sales process is 231 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:11.440 spot on. Wins and losses. Love it, like, don't touch it. 232 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:18.279 It's Workin like. Don't spend any less time on the process. Confirmation 233 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:23.640 of the direction you're aheadited exactly. Another product, we learned our pipe was 234 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:30.000 full of the wrong audience. We needed to change our messaging, are positioning, 235 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:34.200 we needed to, you know, really invest in some sales enablement and 236 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:38.920 website copy. WAS IT lack of clarity there or like what? What drew 237 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:47.119 the wrong audience? So we were we were getting too many small, smaller 238 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:52.200 organizations in the pipe when it was really more of closer to an enterprise product. 239 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:57.599 So we just needed to like make some simple tweaks to almost DQ people 240 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:03.119 before they even came to us, because you just aren't going to be able 241 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:08.039 to afford it. Yeah, yeah, that you know. Ultimately, what 242 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:12.079 we want sales to do is DQ fast, right spend your time on deals 243 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:18.079 you can win. Let's not even bring you those that we know you can't 244 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:21.640 right. Yeah, I love that and I love that there's been variety, 245 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:25.119 because sometimes win loss is good and just going okay, these are things that 246 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:29.000 we're doing well and like let's just double down there. And then even just 247 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:34.440 little subtle things in messaging or how you disqualify. Like you have facts now, 248 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:38.480 right, you actually have data that backs up why you're choosing the direction 249 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:44.200 you're choosing. So if you were talking to an audience, because you are 250 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:47.880 of marketers who are like all right, I love like that this worked, 251 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:52.400 you know, for Tira and her team, but I'm not exactly sure what 252 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.160 our next step is like. What's our how after listening to this episode of 253 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:00.279 be to be growth, what would you say you're advocating for our list nurse 254 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:04.759 to do in response? So I would first off as embrace when loss, 255 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:11.799 whether you or Duyi in it or you have budget and can utilize a third 256 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:17.720 party. So I would my suggestion would be kind of three different things. 257 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:22.480 So kind of you know, crawl, walk, run. So have a 258 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:26.039 win loss report built in your crm. Look at the raw data. You 259 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:32.680 know your win rate, your competitive when rate loss reasons, etc. But 260 00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:37.079 then take it a step further and read the notes from the sales rep, 261 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:42.960 read the emails between the prospect and the sales rep and see would you have 262 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.839 coded it the same loss reason? Interesting. Okay, I would say I 263 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:55.079 would have done it maybe differently. Thirty, forty percent of the time. 264 00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.200 Now, granted, I'm just reading notes and my assumption, but it's really 265 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:06.400 interesting to actually read the notes and see and be like, hmm, I 266 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:12.039 would have totally thought that was competitor not praising or product not, you know, 267 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:18.480 something else. So that's that is a fun exercise to do and really 268 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:26.680 give some insight into why you're winning and why you're losing. If you don't 269 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:33.119 have budget and you're up for the challenge and you have the time, try 270 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:37.839 launching your own win loss interviews. And I will say if someone does this, 271 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:42.720 I totally want to hear about their experience. Would love to hear kind 272 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:48.079 of how you honed in on those interview skills. So yeah, definitely want 273 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:51.240 to hear if anyone does that. I want to pause on that one for 274 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:53.359 a second because I do think you could, if you were trying like the 275 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:57.359 crawl, walk, run approach here. You could have someone on your team 276 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:00.160 that sets like I know we have rocks, but what, however, you 277 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:06.079 guys do goals set, just like a quarterly goal for somebody on your team 278 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:08.319 to try to get a certain number of interviews. So, like, don't 279 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:11.519 worry about how many cold calls it takes, as as much as just like 280 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:15.480 let's get ten interviews over the course of the quarter, because then at least 281 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:18.680 you have something as a baseline and you can decide, like how much insight 282 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.240 do we get here? So I like that one as a first step. 283 00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:23.880 If you're not ready to bring in the third party, I'm assuming the run 284 00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:30.759 is like go get closed. But whoever heard that? Is Right. Yes, 285 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:34.960 your budget and higher third party. I promise, like you won't regret 286 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:41.000 it. And the thing is is it really trickles through the entire organization. 287 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:48.279 So sales, sales engineers, your product team, your demand Jon Marketers, 288 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:56.000 your digital marketing team, product marketing, product like, all of those teams 289 00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:03.920 are going to receive in valuable information that's gonna help drive strategy and demand, 290 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:11.440 ultimately helping you win more business. Like it's great when your product team knows, 291 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:17.319 you know what our road map is spot on, like we know why 292 00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:19.920 we're losing. It's on the Road Map to fix it, or maybe like, 293 00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:23.240 Oh crap, we didn't know any of this, like we need to 294 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:30.680 revise our road map. The insights for our digital team, I mean our 295 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:36.480 competitor landing pages are way better now because of the insights that we've received. 296 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:41.680 I think that's a great way to to leave this episode. Some practical insights, 297 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:44.400 things that we can all do, depending on the the phase that we 298 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.839 are in and the team that we have. I actually had just recently, 299 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:51.839 in the last month or so, had a conversation with Ryan Paul Gibson, 300 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.599 and he is a third party as well that does a lot of these different 301 00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:59.160 types of interviews. He's a good follow on Linkedin as well, so I'll 302 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.400 plug him, but he had mentioned to me he's like one thing we don't 303 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:06.119 understand, and this is zooming out a little bit, it's like we all 304 00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:08.880 say that we want to talk to our customers, but there's like ten different 305 00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:12.559 ways you can talk to your customers or seasons that they might be in with 306 00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:18.640 your product that present different opportunities to have conversation. So when loss is like 307 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:21.720 a specific type of interview, that you get good at that, you develop 308 00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:25.519 questions around, but that's like one in a series of ten other things. 309 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:29.319 Right you think about the funnel and where you could talk to potential customers in 310 00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:33.480 that funnel and like gain insights, and then once they've been customers and you're 311 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:37.359 thinking of their experience, that's a whole different set of research that you can 312 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:41.599 conduct. So I just invite people to like go on that journey and start, 313 00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:45.400 I think, when loss, is a very distinct moment in the journey. 314 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:49.039 That is great to have insight on and then build it out from there. 315 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:52.880 And man great conversation to her. I love the the insights and the 316 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:56.759 things you've learned from this process. Talk a little bit about community brands, 317 00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:00.640 the work you guys are doing and how people can stay connected to to you 318 00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:08.640 awesome. So community brands, we make software for good really so our customers 319 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:15.440 are associations, nonprofits, pay through twelve schools, and so we have some 320 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:19.880 amazing customers that are making an impact on the world that we get to work 321 00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:25.920 with every single day, which is really fun and exciting. And then, 322 00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:30.640 I would say linkedin. It's probably the best way to get in touch with 323 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:34.119 me. I'm not cool enough for like ticktock or anything like that. Same 324 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:38.920 but Linkedin is where it's at. Love it. Awesome. Well, thank 325 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:42.880 you so much for taking time and sharing your wisdom here on be to be 326 00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:48.200 growth with us today. Awesome. Thank you for our listeners. If you're 327 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:52.559 newer to the show and you have yet to follow on whatever podcast platform you 328 00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:56.400 listen on, we'd love for you to do that so you don't miss future 329 00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:00.759 episodes. Connect with me as well over on Linkedin, talking about a community, 330 00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:04.920 talking about marketing, business life, and also just love chatting with people. 331 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:07.680 So if you ever have a question or want to reach out, would 332 00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:12.519 love to chat you and we'll be back real soon with another episode. Thanks 333 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:29.400 for listening to everybody. We're always excited to have conversations with leaders on the 334 00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:33.559 front lines of marketing. If there's a marketing director or a chief marketing officer 335 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:37.119 that you think we need to have on the show, reach out email me, 336 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.119 ben dot block at Sweet Fish Mediacom. I look forward to hearing from you.