Brand vs Branding - The Debate with Sam Moss & Dan Sanchez

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:03.960 Today on B two B growth, we are sharing a featured conversation from our 2 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:08.880 archive, with over two thousand episodes released. We want to resurface episodes worth 3 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:12.400 another listen. Before we jump in, I just want to say I would 4 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:15.519 love to connect and hear from you on Linkedin. You can search Benji walk 5 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:18.640 over there and that's a great place to also interact with sweet fish and B 6 00:00:18.679 --> 00:00:32.719 two B growth. All right, let's jump into today's featured conversation, conversations 7 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:39.799 from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. Welcome 8 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:43.280 back to BDB growth. I'm Dan Sanchez with sweet fish media, and today 9 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:47.560 I'm here with Sam Moss, who is the CO founder of one Click Agency. 10 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:50.880 Sam, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks, man, a 11 00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:54.759 long time listener. I think I met James probably like a year and a 12 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:57.920 half ago. We had him on our podcast and have been following you guys 13 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:00.479 ever since. So I appreciate you guys reaching out to at me on the 14 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:03.879 school. That's awesome. It's always good to have listeners on the show. 15 00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:08.599 But you posted something on Linkedin that got me thinking and I'm like, Oh, 16 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:12.519 I need to have sam onto the show because I have a different point 17 00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:15.879 of view and I love to have people on the show where we have just 18 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:19.400 like different points of view on a topic, to have a I guess you 19 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:23.319 could call it a debate. It's more like a friendly conversation. Almost always 20 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:25.840 it ends up somewhere in the middle, but I like to have it on 21 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:27.719 anyway because it challenges me as a marketer to talk to people who have a 22 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:33.439 different perspective on topics, and today that topic is around brand and branding. 23 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:38.000 You posted on Linkedin like branding is these things. Brand are these things. 24 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:41.799 And before we go into the graphics, Sam, I'd love to kick it 25 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:44.239 off. What kind of like? What is a brand like? Just start 26 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:47.799 real broad for the audience. What what do you consider a brand, and 27 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:52.840 then we can jump into the difference between brand and branding. Yeah, I 28 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:55.680 would, I guess if I were to sum it up into a sentence, 29 00:01:56.079 --> 00:02:00.480 I would say that brand is the emotional connection that you have with your buyers. 30 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:04.400 So it's what they think of you and how they think of you and 31 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:08.240 how they feel when they hear your name or come across a post on social 32 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:12.960 media or whatever it may be. I'd say that sounds about right to me. 33 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:15.599 It's always it's a little bit more than reputation, right, because reputation 34 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:19.400 has like a personal thing to it. It's kind of like, oh, 35 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.800 he has a reputation of this, you know, and it could be good, 36 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:24.919 it could be bad. It's a few words. It's usually like Oh, 37 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:30.840 yeah, she's got a reputation of being being super friendly, right, 38 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:32.599 and a brand is a little bit more. Again, I like how you 39 00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:38.120 add the word emotional to it so well. Reputation plays apart, for sure. 40 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:40.080 I would say that that I mean whether good or bad. But yeah, 41 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:45.039 there is way more to it and I think that the reputation comes alongside 42 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:49.520 a lot of other things. But reputation plays into the emotional connection you have, 43 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:53.039 because if you have a bad reputation, then what happens when they think 44 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:57.639 of you? It's going to be a not good emotional feeling, like like 45 00:02:57.680 --> 00:02:59.759 why would I want to do business for them? Because of the x? 46 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:02.039 So that's how I would look at it. And on one side of the 47 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:07.439 graphic we have all the activities labeled or associated with brand, one of which 48 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:10.000 is the reputation of your company. What are some of the other ones? 49 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:15.879 You have graphic? So I had the reputation. I have what people externally 50 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:19.360 think of you, like I just mentioned, like in conversation, what goes 51 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:23.319 through their mind when they hear about you outside the context of business, how 52 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:29.240 you treat your customers, the community that you've built among your buyers. A 53 00:03:29.240 --> 00:03:32.080 lot of companies are starting to do this and it's a community and brand built 54 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:36.240 around them. And the graphic was actually too small to fit another one, 55 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:38.439 but I think a really, really important one that I would have. It's 56 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:40.840 like should have probably been on there. But the culture that you internally have 57 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:45.199 as a team. I think that goes a long way when it comes to 58 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:49.520 brand, because I think of some companies because of their culture and not because 59 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:52.439 of even their product necessarily. I think, wow, that looks like such 60 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.840 an attractive company because of how they treat their their employees. So that's that's 61 00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:00.800 on the brand side of the graphic and I think it just is like a 62 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:04.719 greater depth of the outside culture. You know, it's the outside culture is 63 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:08.400 good, when the inside culture is kind of like, I don't know, 64 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:12.080 when it's radiating out from the center rather than it just being a facade your 65 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:15.639 agency came up with right, when it's coming from the inside. Now everything 66 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:19.199 you put in the brand is generally what I agree with on what a brand 67 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:24.160 is. Branding, on the other hand, is is, in my opinion, 68 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:27.319 how you get to a brand. But what you had on your list 69 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.240 is very different from what I had on my list. So tell us first 70 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:32.439 what you had on your list and then I'll share what we had on what 71 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:36.480 I would put on my list and then we'll kind of compare notes. Yeah, 72 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:40.839 so I would consider this is and honestly, we might simply just be 73 00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:43.639 having a play on words. So I'm curious to hear that your side of 74 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:46.319 this argument in a way. So I would consider branding to be the visual 75 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:50.839 aspect of your company, right, so I had on my list your logo, 76 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:57.720 your website, the colors you use, the fonts, style that you 77 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:01.319 have even done, trendy s wag and then cool graphics that you post, 78 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:05.360 like. Those are all things that I feel are visual and therefore they don't 79 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:10.360 necessarily fall into the brand category, but they're in the branding side and I 80 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.279 feel like they needed a name because a lot of people will say, yeah, 81 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:15.199 we're working on branding and then they go out and they try to build 82 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:18.600 a community and I'm like, I think branding is something else. So that's 83 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:21.040 how I would define it and I'm curious to hear what you think about that. 84 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:26.000 So and again there's there's definitions in terms floating around here and we might 85 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:30.480 just organize them differently. But to me the brand is the outcome, right. 86 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:34.680 The branding is all the work you do to achieve the outcome, to 87 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:39.680 achieve the reputation you want, how to get people to think about you in 88 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:42.959 the way you would want them to think about you, all those things, 89 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.439 and to me branding is more I'd say the visuals and everything you put is 90 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:49.959 a small portion. I'd almost put it like an iceberg. You're talking about 91 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.639 the things that are the tip of the iceberg. The logo, the website, 92 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:58.839 the colors and the visuals, specifically the videos, is all the tip 93 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:02.839 of the iceberg and I think that's where a lot of people start and that's 94 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.600 and sometimes if you start with those things, you end up with very shallow 95 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:11.759 brands. Right high it has all of those things, Hyatt hotels, but 96 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.240 no one really thinks of high it being a great brand. So when I 97 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:18.959 think of branding, I think of things that are like your beliefs. What 98 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:24.480 are your beliefs that make you weird right. What are the beliefs and things 99 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:27.759 that you know are true and the things that you believe about the world, 100 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:30.759 the things that you believe about how to treat customers and things that you believe 101 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:33.600 should always be true about the product or never true about the product? What 102 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:40.519 are the beliefs about your brand that are just different and it's not a value 103 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:44.560 proposition. Beliefs aren't a positioning statement, though I think your position, of 104 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.120 course, in your market and your mission should all play into those beliefs. 105 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:50.399 Sometimes your core values are in your beliefs, right. You talked about it 106 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:54.439 being internal. So I almost start like at the very center, at all 107 00:06:54.519 --> 00:07:00.160 his beliefs, and then from those beliefs come a message about how you it's 108 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:03.319 almost like the words smithing of the beliefs. It could that's where your slogans 109 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:09.079 come from, that's where your your phrases, your thought leadership, your names. 110 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:14.000 Like Chris Walker talks about the dark funnel. That would be messaging, 111 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:18.120 right. That comes from the beliefs that messages spread through places where you can't 112 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.639 track and the best ones do. Right. From there, I add like 113 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:27.319 a shared enemy, antibelievers. Some people call it the villain. I almost 114 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.720 feel like a good branding work is actually defining who you stand against, and 115 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:34.879 it's not necessarily a competitor. It could be like a way of doing things 116 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:40.040 like sweet fish. We hate boring stuff, right. That could be a 117 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:42.839 villain. We're actually no, we're coming up with commodity content. Is kind 118 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.759 of something we've been playing around as a villain we are. That is our 119 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:49.959 villain that we're attacking and standing up against. I also think rituals play a 120 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:54.680 role into it. So that's to think like you know, Dave Ramsey's a 121 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:58.560 brand that has a ritual. If you're familiar with Dave Ramsey and his radio 122 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:01.360 show, he has people come in to do the debt free scream. That 123 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:05.600 is a ritual that everybody in his brand knows about and some have part taken 124 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.920 and they have traveled to the place and a pilgrimage to Dave Ramsey's, you 125 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.600 know, studio and done the debt free scream live. That is a ritual 126 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:16.680 in his brand. And then on top of the iceberg are the icons. 127 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:20.199 Essentially all the branding work. I think about that, you've said, are 128 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.519 like the tip of the iceberg. After you've done all those other things, 129 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.120 then you have something to really it's like that. All the visual work and 130 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.399 have teeth to it because it has substance to it from all the beliefs and 131 00:08:31.440 --> 00:08:35.600 messaging and the villain the rituals, maybe a leader. So when I think 132 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:39.720 of branding, I think about all those things, defining all those things before 133 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:43.399 you get to the visuals. Now, how does that hit you? Does 134 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:46.919 that come across as like yes, those are good things, but or do 135 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:52.039 you define it differently? Honestly, I'm almost like I feel like there should 136 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:56.279 be a third section to this, like if the graphic right has this line 137 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:58.000 down the middle branding versus brand, and I feel like a lot of the 138 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:05.000 things you described are a combination of narrative and positioning. Would you agree with 139 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:09.559 that? No, I'd say they're they're different. Actually, I play around 140 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:11.440 with this kind of stuff all the time and I have a little bit of 141 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:15.679 a tool that I've been using called the brand sandbox, and I feel like 142 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:20.759 the strategic narrative is upper level, like you can have a strong strategic narrative 143 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:24.919 and the beliefs play into it. But let's let's look at like Chris Walker, 144 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:26.679 since he has a pretty well fleshed out brand and most of the audience 145 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:33.080 is familiar with him, like he has a lot of beliefs that don't that 146 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:39.679 don't include his his origin story. Right, his strategic narrative was like or 147 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:43.200 at least his origin stories. I was an engineer and then I started troubleshooting 148 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.639 things down the line into product and then I started talking to the customers and 149 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:48.240 realized they didn't want it, and then I started going to the marketing and 150 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:50.559 sales team and I'm like wait, why are we talking to all these people 151 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:54.600 who don't want the thing? Right? Why is this process broken? Then 152 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:58.639 he realized the legion, Essentially Legion, and the way we do marketing attribution 153 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:03.799 was all broken and really we just needed to go out and that sound kind 154 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:05.559 of butchering, as mentioned now, but we need to go out and develop, 155 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.600 do demand gin by getting our thought leadership in front of them, by 156 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:15.240 leading them and creating demand before they even are looking for it so that you 157 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:18.039 can win the deal away before they actually need the thing. Right. His 158 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.480 Villain is certainly is like marketing attribution and M Q ls, but I think 159 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:28.519 his positioning as a demand as the leader in demandsion and his origin story or 160 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.080 separate from the beliefs, but they informed the beliefs, like a in a 161 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:37.639 position. To me, positioning is so critical to marketing that it's like it's 162 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:41.559 not it's beyond marketing. It's really organizational strategy at that point, right, 163 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:45.279 you have your like company strategy, and then not long after it's positioning, 164 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:48.600 and I think positioning so critical that it's it shouldn't be the marketing team that 165 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:52.000 decides. It has to be at the like C suite level. So you're 166 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:56.519 saying it's like beliefs, which go even before the two things that you just 167 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:58.919 mentioned, right, because that's what builds into the branding. So it starts 168 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:03.720 with, you said, like your beliefs as a company, your core values, 169 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:07.840 and that's like the foundation. That's what you say builds into brand because 170 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:11.080 that's what you would consider branding and getting it right. Yeah, I think 171 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:15.840 beliefs. Once you have your beliefs, the things that you believe to be 172 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:20.840 true, that should impact your messaging. Your messaging, we'll probably incorporate some 173 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:24.360 kind of villain, maybe rituals. Is another thing that doesn't that's not super 174 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:28.679 related to messaging, but all those things add up to what I call your 175 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:31.399 icons. And actually I get a lot of this from a book called primal 176 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.480 branding, though I've modified it, but he calls it a creed and I'm 177 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:39.879 like it just beliefs are fine, like I've modified it a bit because I'm 178 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:43.080 not in line with his book, but a lot of the ideas around, 179 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:46.279 like having a shared enemy, or he calls it the anti believers, having 180 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:50.720 rituals, comes from that book. kind of open my eyes to like how 181 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:52.480 do you build a good brand? Is? It's got to be more than 182 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:56.600 a logo, because lots of companies have logos and don't have good brands. 183 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:01.360 So what makes a good moment? Right, it's kind of the stuff underneath, 184 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:03.879 and that's where I go into like the brand side of it, because 185 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:07.159 I think a lot of people and I think marketers are coming around to it 186 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:11.320 where they believe that the logo, you know in the past has been this 187 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:16.159 brand icon and that's why you buy. But the more you dig into it, 188 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:18.159 like you don't buy a Mercedes because it has the cool logo, you 189 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:22.600 buy a Mercedes because of the luxury feel and you know how you look to 190 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:26.000 your friends, etcetera. Right. So I guess if I were to look 191 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:30.360 at it, I guess your argument is branding leads to brand and the more 192 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:33.200 that we kind of talk about it, like if you have good branding, 193 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:37.879 so your your message, your beliefs, the villain that you're going after and 194 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.080 even the visual aspects, eventually you're going to build into a solid brand. 195 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:43.799 Is that what you're saying? Yes, and I think you can actually do 196 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:50.519 it without the logo and the websites. Hence I doe, like the hence 197 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:52.559 brands have existed for a long time, like the original one I'm thinking of, 198 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:56.759 I'm reading his biography right now, is that Josiah Wedgwood, who is 199 00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:58.720 like the O g marketer that no one has ever heard of. Usually. 200 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:03.720 He was a potter and so he got mad one day when someone's like, 201 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.159 Oh, is this one of your pots, and he picked up a competitor's 202 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:09.759 pot. He's like, Oh, this is a wedgewood pot, and he's 203 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:15.559 like what, how could you not tell the difference without looking under the pot 204 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:18.960 to find the name? He's like, uh, something's different. So he 205 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:24.320 started differentiating all his products and really started developing a much broader brand name for 206 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:26.720 his wood style. He also did a lot of other things that kind of 207 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:33.000 kicked off the age of modern marketing. But one of them was branding, 208 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:37.639 because he wanted his stuff to be different and people would seek out his stuff. 209 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:39.759 He's like no, I want I don't want a normal pot, I 210 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:43.600 want a Wedgewood Pot. But that was way before logos were a thing, 211 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:48.240 way before websites were a thing and all the other visual identity pieces were a 212 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:50.679 thing. So I have a question for you. then. Let's say that 213 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:56.320 we are saying we're gonna work on branding. As a marketer right, we 214 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:00.559 can't, as marketers, go back to ground zero to ide if I the 215 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.080 villain, if we already have it and if we already have the messaging that 216 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.919 was put in place by the founder or the board of the CEO or whatever 217 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:11.279 it is. So like, wouldn't that almost make a third category for marketers, 218 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:15.240 which is the visual aspects that they want to go work on to help 219 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:18.559 create an identifier for the brand that they're building and the reputation that they have? 220 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:26.000 Hey, everybody logan with sweet fish here. If you're a regular listener 221 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.759 of B two B growth, you know that I'm one of the CO hosts 222 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:31.759 of this show, but you may not know that I also head up the 223 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:35.360 sales team here at sweet fish. So for those of you in sales or 224 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:37.919 sales ops. I wanted to take a second to share something that's made us 225 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:43.279 insanely more efficient late. Our team has been using lead I q for the 226 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:46.960 past few months and what used to take us four hours gathering contact data now 227 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.120 takes us only one. Were more efficient. We're able to move faster with 228 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:58.919 outbound prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before. I'd highly 229 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:01.240 suggest you guys check out lead I Q as well. You can check them 230 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:05.879 out at lead I Q dot Com. That's l e a d I q 231 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:13.080 dot Com. All right, let's get back to the show. I think 232 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:18.679 if you want to like usually you're doing branding work. Well, hardly ever 233 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:22.840 do launch a company with all the branding work already done. It has to 234 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:26.639 be done as you go right, because even the position of the company, 235 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:31.720 especially if the company is changing every six months, every or as as often 236 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.080 as six months. If you're fast growing and you're accelerating right, things change 237 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:39.480 fast, which means your brand is changing fast, right. So hardly ever 238 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:43.279 is a branding expert stepping into a company that's starting from Ground Zero. It's 239 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:46.399 almost always got pieces in play. Some of the pieces are good, some 240 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:48.600 of them are not, and that's where you need to assess what's good. 241 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.519 They might already have some of the things down. The messaging might be bland, 242 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:56.519 but Dang they have this awesome ritual they go through. We're going to 243 00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:00.039 keep that. People remember that or um like some of the things sweet fish 244 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:04.320 is known for is personal brands. Right, if you're on Linkedin, you 245 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:08.639 bumped into sweet fish. You know we're all about personal brands because we believe 246 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:15.600 like this reflects a belief about personal being better than personalized. That's a sweet 247 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:21.039 fish belief, but that's like it's like it's like a reflection of the belief. 248 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:22.360 So that would be something I'd put in there so you can actually already 249 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:26.720 assess it and be like what beliefs are already in play, what messaging is 250 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:29.720 already in play that's good and what's missing? Maybe we don't have a villain, 251 00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:32.919 maybe the messaging sucks, but the beliefs are good when I hear the 252 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:37.039 founder talk, and we just need to actually articulate them in better messaging because 253 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:41.399 internally they're using this language that's awesome and it's really stacked on good beliefs. 254 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:45.440 We just haven't put it in marketing yet. You might be something farther down, 255 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.759 farther downstream to like the positioning might be broken. Even though they've got 256 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:52.320 a strong brand, no one can exactly remember what they do. Right. 257 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.919 Everybody likes the brand, but nobody knows exactly why to buy from them. 258 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.240 So that could be there could be problems down dream too, like you don't 259 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.119 have a good story for why. That's something we're wrestling with. The sweet 260 00:17:03.119 --> 00:17:07.880 fish, right, we don't know. Why do we do what we do 261 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.799 in a way that is not hey, we want to earn more money, 262 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:15.960 because that's never a good why. Right. So there's no people story or 263 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:18.799 and we're still working even on the mission, like what are we trying to 264 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.319 build a community around to achieve together? We have some ideas we're kicking around, 265 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:26.240 but I'd say that stuff is all sorry, not downstream. Up continually 266 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.359 eat all the brand though. Yeah, so I guess, honestly, one 267 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:32.799 of the reasons that I was just like, I feel like we need just 268 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:37.279 a visual representation of branded branding is because I see so many posts from bigger 269 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:41.039 name B two B marketers that are like here's what brand is, right, 270 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:45.079 and of course they list reputation and I didn't like straight up copy what they 271 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.119 said, but I had some ideas of my own. Right. And then 272 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:49.400 they say it's not your logo on your website. So I sat to myself 273 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:52.160 I'm like, well, what is your logo and website? And maybe it's 274 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:56.240 really not branding, maybe it needs a category of its own or like it's 275 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:59.200 a tip of an iceberg, like you mentioned, of branding. But I 276 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:02.680 think one of the reasons that I was like, we need to identify, 277 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:06.920 like what since? If if this isn't brand then what is it? That 278 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:11.000 was almost my thought process behind creating like this graphic with a line down the 279 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:12.680 middle. And again, I mean if it if it needs another name. 280 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:15.400 You know I'm not always attached to branding, but it sounds like you're just 281 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:19.519 expanding on well, branding is more than the visual aspects. It goes deeper 282 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:25.160 into like the company origin story, and it works this way back all the 283 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:29.039 way from the image all the way back to that's what you're saying. Yeah, 284 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.519 of course you can have a pretty strong brand to be missing some critical 285 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:36.079 elements, but the more elements are missing, the harder it gets, which 286 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:41.200 is why you have brands like Hyatt, where you could literally just or brands 287 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:44.000 like, I don't know, Hyatt, sketchers to some degree, you know, 288 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:45.759 like these brands are just kind of like, uh, no one really 289 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.640 resonates with sketchers, you know, maybe they saw it in the store. 290 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:52.680 Maybe. I'm sure they're big enough brand that they probably have some followers. 291 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:55.799 Hi. It's my favorite to pick on, though, because I think everyone, 292 00:18:56.039 --> 00:19:00.240 no, no one's like. I Love Hyatt Hotels. That's my thing. 293 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.920 You're like, most hotels are like that. In particular is it's a 294 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:08.599 huge, huge brand. No one really cares about them. So they've done 295 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:12.720 everything right, they've hired very expensive agencies to come up with visual identities, 296 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:17.799 but they don't have any interest and it only goes so far. Yeah, 297 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:21.200 yeah, the thing is the visual side really only goes so far and like 298 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:22.960 you mentioned, and I actually do agree with this, is you could have 299 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:30.000 the brand side and do well as a company and have mediocre to Subpar, 300 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:34.319 I'm what I would label branding right, uh, logo, website, colors, 301 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:38.640 swag, cool graphics, because people will remember you for the brand side 302 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:44.680 more so than the visual aspects of your marketing, which, as you continue 303 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:47.680 to grow, of course, you need to op that, because if you 304 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:52.759 think about McDonald's Coke Apple, like, of course the visual representation is there 305 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.319 and you do start to remember it, but when I think of sweet fish, 306 00:19:56.599 --> 00:19:59.799 I don't think of the logo or even your website. Like if I 307 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:02.440 about it, of course I can remember it, but immediately the thing I 308 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:07.359 think about is wow, from the start james has created in it incredible culture 309 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.720 with the employees like you, uh Logan, and anyone else that's at sweet 310 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.200 fish right and that's something I immediately remember about you guys, and that's where 311 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:21.519 I'm just like, I totally agree where brand carries the weight way more than 312 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:25.079 what I would label branding, which is the visual aspects. I think the 313 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:27.440 thing we get stuck on is, like what is the work that you have 314 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:32.240 to do in order to get the outcome of having a strong brand? So 315 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:36.960 sweet fish has a fairly strong brand, but what's the work that went into 316 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:41.200 doing it? It's almost like James did it on accident, like he of 317 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.160 course he did a lot of stuff, but like there's some things that he 318 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:48.079 does just as a person, habits that he has that could be a part 319 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:52.480 of it, though, is simply they james attracts the right people because of 320 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:55.960 who he is, and that can be a brand in itself. For example, 321 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:57.480 Chris Walker is a cool guy. I'm sure there are people that consume 322 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:00.920 his content and say, I like Chris, I want to work with Chris, 323 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:06.480 and that could impact, like trickle down to the brand and eventually like 324 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:11.039 explode into something bigger if you're creating like the same culture that you're portraying through 325 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:15.720 your personal profile or just life in general. Right, YEP, and that's 326 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:19.559 why in the book primal branding he would say every strong, really strong brand 327 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:23.759 as a leader. Right, you think of virgin you can't not think of 328 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:32.519 their leader. You cannot think of Richard Branson. Right, you think of 329 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:37.400 rights. It's yeah, there's usually a leader associated with the strong brand. 330 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:40.160 Not Always, though, because, like you think of southwest, is a 331 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:41.880 fairly strong brand, there's no leader behind it, at least that I can 332 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.720 think of. Spent time thinking about them, so I'm like, I don't 333 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:48.000 know what their leader is. But there are other aspects that impact the brand, 334 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:52.200 like what you said about James as. He almost did it on accident. 335 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:55.839 If that's the case, that's awesome, but it's probably because of his 336 00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.480 integrity, his personality, him as a person, right, and then you 337 00:21:59.559 --> 00:22:03.839 get to sell West. There's obviously some other things in the brand category. 338 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:07.240 Maybe it's a reputation, the experience, how they treat their customers. That's 339 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:12.759 like the thing that drives the brand forward more so than like the origin, 340 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:17.480 not the origin story, but like the founder and the personality he has, 341 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:21.160 like you guys like that sweet fish. Right. I think it's easier if 342 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:23.799 you have a founder that has a lot, has a strong personal brand or 343 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:29.400 a strong beliefs and viewpoints that has. Like when he has a strong point 344 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:33.160 of view, that especially in a startup where your it's all flowing from that 345 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:37.599 founder, then that creates a strong brand really easily. Unless it grew it 346 00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:40.319 was so fast that it outgrows the founder, which has happened right. You 347 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:44.559 know Tony Hish with a Zappos, talked about it in his biography where he 348 00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.720 his company grew so fast that they hired so quickly he couldn't instill his personal 349 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.680 values into the company, unlike Zappos, where he took his time. But 350 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:55.839 I still think you can do it without you just have to be more intentional 351 00:22:56.039 --> 00:23:00.279 and think about like what are the beliefs that we have as a leader ship 352 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.319 team or as an organ or what? What do we want to believe in? 353 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:07.559 Like, what can we believe that makes us weird? I actually think 354 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:11.960 the word weird is key. Yeah, that's a good one. I don't 355 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:17.440 know if anything comes to mind for what we do. I think I don't 356 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:19.039 know that weird is a good question where I'll actually have to think about it, 357 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:22.920 because that is a fun way to do it and really like what does 358 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:26.319 make us different and somewhat weird to others? That's that is interesting like that, 359 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:30.839 and I think that's we're thinking about. Like your anti believers, and 360 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.440 I don't think your Anti Believers are necessarily the people that buy into your competitor, 361 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.240 but it could be if your competitor stands for a totally different way of 362 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:41.559 doing things, and then I wouldn't make the enemy your your competitor. I 363 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:47.559 make it that way of that approaches the enemy right. For Chris Walker, 364 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:53.759 it's Legion in general. People who are big into Legion and Hubspot and tracking 365 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:59.519 to the nth degree with analytics and data and driving lots of m q else 366 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:03.839 those are the anti believers of which I find myself somewhere in the middle for 367 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:07.279 his camp. I'm not like it's like it's not Gospel to me. I'm 368 00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:11.319 like I could still win with the CEO. Yeah, yeah, I'm like 369 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.200 on the middle, but there's definitely, man, there's a whole crew that 370 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:19.799 are like champion that message now and that those beliefs um it's like part of 371 00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:25.640 them. So I think thinking about what beliefs you have that make you weird 372 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:27.359 as and there's going to be some people that think you're really weird for it, 373 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:30.440 but you and the other people that disagree you are like yes, no, 374 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:34.519 this is the truth, this is the thing. Yeah, I agree 375 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.880 and uh, I think that's something that we're going through right now. Is 376 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:41.400 I mean, I guess I would be positioning or narrative or whatever, just 377 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.440 coming up with like what is it that you're against and what is it that 378 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.839 you're known for, because I think that's something that we've lacked and it's like 379 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.599 definitely our focus that we're, you know, playing around with right now some 380 00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:55.920 ideas and bouncing around. But I'm gonna have to steal though, what makes 381 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.400 us weird. That's gonna be something that we certainly think about. Yeah, 382 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:03.680 and I honestly, you could probably look to your positioning for cues on that, 383 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:06.559 right. I don't know. It probably doesn't tell you everything. Like 384 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:10.279 we're a B two B podcast agency. That's sweet fishes positioning. But we 385 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:14.759 all know that B two B s usually kind of boring. I know it's 386 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:19.039 it's it's in fashion right now to make B two be fun, but hardly 387 00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:25.880 anybody's doing it. Everybody's talking about you guys are all talking about it, 388 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:30.559 but we haven't actually liked done it yet. You have very few companies are 389 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:33.839 pushing the envelope on fun and B two B um sweet fish. So that's 390 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:37.039 what we're trying to do, is trying to bring that back. Hence our 391 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:41.000 our villain that we've been forming is commodity content. I like it. I 392 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.519 like it, so now I have to go and work some messaging around it. 393 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:48.839 And Uh, I think James has been working on some stuff like bye 394 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:55.680 bye boring content or something as a Hashtag he's been using by that would that 395 00:25:55.720 --> 00:26:00.880 would be that would be an extension of the belief that commodity that's bad. 396 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:06.319 And then moved to language or messaging right, which is going to be by 397 00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:10.720 by commodity, by by boring content. I think one of the best ways 398 00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:15.799 I've seen this going on is I see some B Two b brands tooling around 399 00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:19.000 with the world of like Tiktok or even instagram reels, and I think that's 400 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:23.240 just a fun way to connect with your buyers. And again this goes back 401 00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:26.240 to like your brand, like how does how does your brand make you your 402 00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.400 your buyers feel when they see you right and I've even seen this is funny 403 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:33.640 because I wouldn't think of them as like a funny brand, but refined labs 404 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:38.200 has a Tiktok now that they've gotten like some videos on, and it's I'm 405 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:41.119 like pretty picky when it comes to content that makes me laugh, like if 406 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:44.359 it's stupid, I'm not gonna Laugh, but they actually had a couple of 407 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:47.759 videos that I was like chuckling at. So I see they're kind of doing 408 00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.160 the same thing. I think Gong I didn't see their their page. I 409 00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:52.880 just started following the other day, but they have some videos there. I 410 00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:57.279 think Chili Piper might be another one, but it's whatever we've seen in B 411 00:26:57.319 --> 00:27:02.039 two C for the past x amount of years. Give it two or three 412 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:04.359 years and the same thing is gonna start happening in B two B. So 413 00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.079 it's you can almost get ahead of the curve, see exactly what they're doing 414 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:11.200 and how they're interacting with their audience and their buyers, and then just replicate 415 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:15.400 that in the B two B world and don't be afraid to do it. 416 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.759 It's interesting. That's a whole another conversation on what I'm seeing and I'm like, 417 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:22.400 okay, so tiktok is becoming a thing, but what's after Tiktok? 418 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:25.160 And I've already had in my head what's next after TIKTOK that I'm like starting 419 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:33.079 to invest in now. So we'll figure that out. But as Ma'am branding. 420 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:38.119 Branding such a broad and fascinating topic to pick up. What are some 421 00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:45.000 of the your favorite brands? Gone, refined labs, sweet fish definitely hits 422 00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:49.400 the list. I guess I'm going to to be two be ones drift kind 423 00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:52.319 of like the early days, to be honest. I like their narrative better 424 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:56.799 before than what it is now. I think it would be my top four. 425 00:27:56.839 --> 00:27:59.559 As for like B two C, because we can get, you know, 426 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:00.720 we take some examples from this. I would say, uh, the 427 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:06.400 NFL and the MLB are pretty incredible brands. Apple, of course, coke. 428 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.440 Wendy's is one of my favorite. Just go read their twitter. It's 429 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:14.400 hilarious. Burger King. So those are some examples of some brands that I 430 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:17.240 like interesting. I think all everybody listening to this show is kind of like 431 00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:18.759 nodding their head, like Yep, Yep, those are all the brands. 432 00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:22.240 I'm proud the sweet fish made in the list. That makes me happy, 433 00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:29.160 obviously compared to some others, but yeah, yeah, it's definitely the culture. 434 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.160 Whenever I think about you guys, I just think about what a fun 435 00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:36.160 place to work right. Everyone's excited to be there, excited to do their 436 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:38.400 job and it's like a family, and that's how I consider it and it 437 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:42.000 makes me like have an affinity towards what you guys do because of that. 438 00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.960 So obviously doing something right. Yeah, that's good. I'll certainly be passing 439 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:49.200 that off to James and uh, our director of culture, because that's what 440 00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:52.920 he cares a lot about. Um. But of course that eliminates out through 441 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:59.319 the brand and all the marketing work too. Oh cool man, Sam. 442 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.440 This has been an awesome conversation and I think this is going to be a 443 00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:07.240 continuing dialogue will be fun kicked off with this this podcast episode. There any 444 00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.039 final thoughts you have for the guest or anything you'd like to share about what 445 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:15.920 you're doing, what you're working on before we sign off with this episode? 446 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:19.960 You know if you want to continue the debate, I'm pretty active on Linkedin, 447 00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:22.960 Sam Moss. Just search it. I'm pretty sure I'll come up, 448 00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:29.440 so send me a connection request. We will go at it in the comments 449 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:30.799 section if you if you want to chat, I'm always responding to stuff, 450 00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:33.519 so that's probably the best way to find me that. We have a podcast 451 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.920 where it's called B t be made simple, where we talk about similar things 452 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:40.720 that we just talked about today. So if you're you're interested in that, 453 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:42.319 be sure to check it out as well. But Dan, I appreciate you 454 00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:57.119 having me and this has been great, awesome. B Two B growth is 455 00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:00.119 brought to you by the team at Sweet Fish Medio. Here at sweet fish, 456 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:03.720 we produce podcasts for some of the most innovative brands in the world and 457 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:08.599 we help them turn those podcasts into micro videos, linkedin content, blog posts 458 00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:12.119 and more. We're on a mission to produce every leader's favorite show. Want 459 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:22.880 more information, visit sweet fish media DOT COM