Transcript
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Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth.
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Welcome back to be to be growth. My name is James Carberry and the
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founder of sweet fish, and I'm
joining today by our director of audience growth,
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Dan Sanchez, affectionately known as Dan
chaz on, linked in our favorite
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social platform. So today is another
episode of our series that we're calling the
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journey. So we are on a
mission here and we are trying to become
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the go to media property for B
two B marketers, and there's actually some
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different language that we're gonna be using
that I don't want to share just yet.
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Just in a few minutes Dan and
I are going to be unpacking the
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specific kind of burbage of our mission, but I wanted to set some context,
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and that's essentially, you know,
what the entire series about is this
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journey that we're on to build B
two B growth as a media property.
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Everybody's talking about building a media property, you know, build a media company
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inside of your niche. That's exactly
what we are setting out to do and
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we want to document all the different
things that that we've been thinking about on
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that path to doing just that.
So Dan set us up today with mission
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and what we're going to be talking
about as it relates to the mission of
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Bob Growth. The mission right usually
think of like organizational strategy and planning and
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all that kind of stuff. I
think the reason why we're thinking about it,
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even on the marketing is because of
what Andy Raskin has been doing.
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Like we're all talking about this strategic
narrative and it's even part of why we're
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sharing it as we come along,
because we're not a hundred percent on it
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that we think we're getting pretty Dann
close. The strategic narrative assumes that you
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came from somewhere and that you're going
forward towards a dusk nation of some kind
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and there's a story of why you're
going there. So last week we talked
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about like why we're really grabbing onto
B two B and why we're like,
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you know, graduating on from B
to c into this awesome wonderland called B
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two B and the part of that
right, just just to give people the
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context as to why brands need a
villain, and the most iconic brands all
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have villains. They're fighting something,
whether it's Chris Walker fighting marketing, attribution
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drift, fighting forms salesforce, uh, fighting, what was it? Uh?
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On Prem software, on premise software. These iconic brands all have enemies,
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and so we had to really define
what is the enemy of B Two
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B growth? If we're, you
know, if we're going to treat B
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to be growth like a business,
like this media property, like a company,
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then we've got to treat it like
the best brands in the world.
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And so identifying the villain of B
two C plays really, really well for
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us and it's something that took us. Took US several years to figure out
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that that that was the thing.
But now that we've got the villain locked
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in, now we've got to get
really clear on what our mission is.
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Where are we going? Andy Raskin
strategic narrative huge part of this. You
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have to have a place of where
you're going, and James and I have
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been wrestling with this for well over
a year because it's not easy. It's
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so hard. You get caught into
this nebulous place and then you even wonder
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like, Oh wait, well,
the company's narrative is this, and should
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our show have a different thing going
on? Like what's The podcast? Is
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Our main media property? WHAT'S B
Two B growth? Is supposed to have
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a different one is supposed to link. You know, it's kind of like
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a similar conversation is just around branding, right. You know, we a
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branded house? Are we a house
of brands? What are we doing?
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It's the same kind of chicken and
egg problem where you're not sure how which
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one comes first and how they tie
together. So if you're out there wrestling
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with us, know that we're all
freaking wrestling with this. This is this
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is a hard problem and, honestly, something that James and I have even
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said like, Oh, this is
why cmos and like high level VPS get
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paid the big bucks, because it's
freaking hard and we've been on a journey
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with this. So I wish we
would have started like recording some of these
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episodes like earlier so we could like
even show our missteps. But Oh wow,
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we haven't recorded those moving forward,
so I'm not I'm not too worried
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about not being able to share our
missteps. Fair enough, what we're moving
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forward now is the journey that we're
going on and where where we're trying to
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take people. Is this idea around
becoming somebody's favorite versus becoming the best,
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like even the way James opened it
up. It's like the go to source.
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That's so hard to to find.
How do you know when you've reached
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that? It's a really hard mission
to actually attain. The most of us
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kind of want to get there and
what we've learned from our friend Jed Kenzo
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is that being the best is harder
to find and even if you reach it,
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what does that even mean? But
being a favorite is something worth pursuing.
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That idea to be the best.
It's like you said, Dan,
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it's so ambiguous. And being the
best it's a personal thing. Like the
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best liquorice on the planet to me
is Red Vines, hands down. There's
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no marketing that twizzlers can do to
to change my favorite liquorice. And so
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is twizzlers the best or is Red
Vines the best? Well, it depends
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on who you're talking to. But
I can tell you that for me my
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favorite. I can't determine what is
best because it's it's such a personal thing
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to me, but my favorite hands
down. I will dog on anybody that
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likes twizzlers over red vines. I
will think your taste buds are broken if
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you like twizzlers more than red vines, because red vines are my favorite.
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They're nostalgic, they're my childhood.
They're like what I remember going to get
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after I mowed somebody's yard. I
would get like red. I would go
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to target and get a bag of
red vines and just dominate them. You
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can't replicate that, regardless of how
good your marketing is, but you can
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make your product so good. They
made their products so delicious to me that
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red vines became my favorite. And
so I think when we think about our
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mission here at sweet fish, like
the specific verbiage that we're gonna use is
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that we're on a mission to become
ten thousand B two B marketers favorite show.
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And we were talking even before we
hit record here, like that's gonna
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be tough to measure, like how
do you how do you know whether or
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not you're somebody's favorite show? My
thinking right now, at least at the
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time of this recording, is that
we just asked people, and what I
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foresee being tough is, like people
are so accustomed to signing up or or
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putting filling out a form to get
something, whether that's a pdf or something
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swag that they're going to get in
the mail. And with this it's like
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that's tough because if we say go, Hey, go to Bwi grow show
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dot com, slash favorite and tell
us whether this is your favorite show,
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and if you do that, we're
gonna like my my knee jerk is to
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say, if you do that,
we're gonna give you something. We'll send
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you a copy of my book,
will you know? We'll give you some
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digital asset that's gonna help you get
better at work. But if you do
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that, then you've got people signing
up because they want the thing, not
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because we're actually their favorite show.
And so I don't know, as we
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were talking about that before, Dan, what are your thoughts on on measuring?
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How do you think we should measure
this show becoming our audiences favorite show?
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Tough question. I think we'll learn
a lot over the next few years,
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though one thing I know for sure
is that you can't just ask people
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and then like Callie them up over
a couple of years and then maybe you
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get to ten Tho, because people's
favorites sometimes change, especially with podcasts.
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We've all gone through seasons where so
and so is our favorite podcaster and then
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it's dropped. So do you take
it an aggregate or do you want ten
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thousand at one time? And that's
hard to measure at one time. For
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sure, I would think if it's
a podcast that you're aiming for, then
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you should at least be seeing ten
thousand plus downloads one episode. Right,
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if your goal is ten thousand and
it's their favorite episode, then they're all
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going to download at least one episode, not the favorite. Yeah, their
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favorite show. So yeah, if
you would think, but you know with
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different podcast players auto downloads. So
so looking at downloads isn't necessarily at least
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the thing it should be. It
should probably be well north of ten thousand.
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If it's ten thousand people's favorite show
right right now, it would.
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It needs to needs to be more, but it needs to be at least
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that, probably at least double,
probably maybe even ten X. I don't
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know, like ten. In social
media we know that that's like the one
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or it's the ninety nine one rule, right. So for a hundred people
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on the platform or lurkers or engagers, and one percent or creators, and
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I actually think it flips to the
other way around. I think I think
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there lurkers, yes, sorry,
lurkers, nine percent or engagers, one
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percent are creators, right. So
most people just listen, and I think
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it's the same way here, like
you'll have a lot of people that are
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just lurking and kind of listening.
It's one of many shows they listen to.
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A bunch will be really big fans, but only a small percentage will
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be your the top, the true
fans, and I think that's probably where
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they get to. Like you've heard
that their phrase, like thousand true fans.
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I forgot the guy who wrote the
paper on that, that Tim Ferris,
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like trumpets all over the place like
a thousand true fans. It's probably
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only one percent. So if you
need a thousand truth Evans, you probably
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need a a fan base or a
group consuming your content in the hundred thousand
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range, I would think. I
want to go back, Dan to really
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talking about why trying to achieve favoritism
or being someone's favorite is so beneficial from
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a business perspective. When I was
talking about red vines earlier, and this
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is this happens regardless of whether I'm
recording an episode or not, there is
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a passion that I have for Red
Vines, liquorice. I would run through
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a wall to fight somebody who thinks
that twizzlers are better than red vines.
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Imagine if you're able to create that
kind of passion, you've got folks running
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through a wall to advocate for your
brand, whether it's your media property,
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whether it's your company, if you
can evoke that kind of passionate interest in
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your brand. Man Back and we
did. We did an episode. I
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don't know if it's it'll be live
yet when this one goes live, but
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we talked about what the heck happened
to drift in another series we're doing on
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on B two. B growth called
the Echo Chamber. And man back in
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was when drift was in their heyday. You had passionate, passionate fans that
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loved the brand of drift. They
would go to their hyper growth events,
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they would buy their swag, they
would talk about the product on Linkedin and
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on twitter. I mean they were
passionate, passionate lovers of drift, the
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product, but also the brand and
the and the creative outside the box stuff
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they did from in their marketing.
And that's why I think striving to achieve
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becoming someone's favorite is so strategic and
so important. And so as you think
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about Dan trying like okay, we
want me to be growth to become ten
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thousand B two B marketers favorite show. It's like doing the work of coming
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up with the villain and the mission, I think is a is a huge
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part of it. Like you want
to be able to connect with people viscerally,
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on an emotional level, and so
by defining B two C as the
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villain, by defining the mission of
like trying to trying to achieve this favorite
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status amongst, you know, ten
thousand people, it gives somebody something to
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want to be a part of.
B Two B growth will be right back.
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There are a lot of questions on
marketers minds right now, and analyzing
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the latest trends can be a full
time job in itself. Can an a
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R filter really improve brand awareness?
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by clicking the link in our show
notes right now. You want to be
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able to connect with people viscerally,
on an emotional level, and so by
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defining B two C as the villain, by defining the mission of like trying
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to trying to achieve this favorite status
amongst, you know, ten thousand people,
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it gives somebody something to want to
be a part of. It actually
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reminds me of the book tribal brand, which he did a fantastic job of
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actually how to actually make a brand
something that's actually strong and not just a
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fancy logo, not just to look
even if the designers are all happy with
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it. There's something more to it. There's got it's got teeth to it,
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which he really comes and brings it
down, and I've actually had to
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rephrase it because what he might call
language, I'm like, it's more than
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language. There's really core beliefs.
You could call them core values, but
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to call them core values makes it
sound kind of corporate and glossy and something
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that people don't actually really value.
But I mean like the true values of
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the things that will never change that
you all your core founding team, or
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like the all employees, hopefully you're
vetting against, you know, are the
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things that you're like. No,
we will always believe in this. You
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heard one of them earlier, the
idea that favorite is better than best.
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What we're really saying is one of
our core beliefs is a fin is better
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than awareness. A lot of people
can know about us, but we want
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people to have a strong affinity.
That's a belief that we have at B
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two B growth, and you can't
change our minds about it now. We're
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not going back and we will slam
the other opinion all day. We don't
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even care if they have better stats
in some cases, like we don't care.
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Okay, your data proves otherwise.
Don't care. We know this is
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true. Don't care. You can
go do your thing. Well, they're
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gonna do our things and we'll see
who's right at the end. We're going
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for it. You need core beliefs
at its, a bunch of them that
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all work together with the narrative that
then you can flesh out into an actual
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brand that's worth following. From the
core beliefs comes the language, from the
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core. From that language comes the
ICONOGRAPHY, comes the design, you know,
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the visual symbolism that represents things like
you can't look at a Christian Cross
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and just be neutral about it.
You can't look at a swastika and just
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be neutral about it. That symbolism
means something. They're not just simple lines.
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Both of those symbols are very simple
lines, right, but they both
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bring something to the surface because there's
beliefs behind each of those, whether you're
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four or against either of them.
Right, your brand and your logo have
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to represent something and that's the brands
and their needs, the values underneath.
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and honestly, they can't be normal
values. They can't be values that everybody's
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like, Oh yeah, we agree
with that, because that's boring. They
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honestly kind of need to be weird. You have to find your weird values
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because that's going to make your brand
so much stickier. It's the reason why
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somebody wants to adopt your way of
thinking as their own identity. It's it's
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why the villain and the and the
mission piece, I think, are such
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a big part of building a brand
that can become someone's favorite. The villain,
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like, as we villainize B two
C and talk about how B Two
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B is the big kids table and
B two B is where you grow up
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in business when you really want to
like do the adult work and do it
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in a fun and refreshing way.
Well, that is going to resonate with
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a whole hopefully that resonates with a
whole lot of people that feel the exact
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same way. Like man, I
used to do B two C two and
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I also feel like I graduated,
like I'm I'm able to make a more
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significant impact on the business and B
Two B, I'm able to be more
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strategic in my decision making and and
B two B. I'm able to do
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all of these things in a way
that I couldn't do whenever I was stuck
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in my b two C role.
And so by hearing a show that just
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rails on B two c relentlessly talking
about how much better B two B is,
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well, they're able to voice something
about your identity that you haven't necessarily
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voiced before yourself. And so when
you see Chris Walker seemingly come out of
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nowhere over the course of three years
and become like the go to voice in
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B Two b marketing, what's because
the favorite voice he said a lot of
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things that people have been thinking for
a while but hadn't quite articulated the way
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he was able to articulate and I
still think we've got a long, you
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know, a long way to go
and truly figuring out what are those things
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that that lots of people are thinking
that they just haven't figured out how to
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articulate yet. Well, but dark
social being one of those things that he
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named and claimed marketing attribution and not
overly, being overly reliant on what your
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software is telling you, Hey,
these leads are coming from, you know
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search, when in reality you do
self reported attribution and you figure out that
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they heard you on a podcast or
they found you through a former coworker that
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told them about your product. And
so, to your point, the beliefs,
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the mission, the villain, so
many of those things, I think
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a lot of times people accidentally developed
them, but then you've got brands that
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that, like what we're trying to
do, purposely create them and I think
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we're going to get there a whole
lot faster because we are purposeful in the
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creation of the things that we believe
make up a brand. And the book
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you were referring to earlier primal branding. I think you know it's written by
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guy named Patrick Handlon and the book
was a little bit, you know,
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weird and how it was organized,
but the continents, I mean our our
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friend tyed class or raves about this
book. He's the one who turned US
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onto the book and the ideas in
the book, regardless of, you know,
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being a little bit scattered from an
organizational standpoint, the ideas in the
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book are powerful and if you can
reverse engineer your brand, whether it's for
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the media property you're trying to build
or your company, I think you're you're
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going to be on the fast track
to building a brand that can become someone's
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favorite. You know, one of
the things that gets me excited about this
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mission, particularly because you might look
at this and think, well, well,
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that's great, that's a good mission
for B twob growth and you guys,
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but what's the mission we're all going
there together on, and what I'm
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hoping that this personal mission of ours
inspires you to do is to do the
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same thing, to build a tribe
of one thousand, two thousand, Ten
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thou true fans, ten thou people
that can call your media property, whether
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it's a blog or youtube channel or
a podcast, whatever. It is their
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favorite thing, one of their favorite
things. I'm excited about that because the
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more of us are doing this and
B two be the more fun work becomes.
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When you have some brands and some
purpose and when you see it and
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you're like yes, this is the
thing and it's so cool that you want
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to wear the logo on your t
shirt, which is kind of like the
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ultimate sign of a fanboy, right
when you're just wearing the swag. I
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heard Daniel Murray and Chris Walker talk
about this on another podcast recently. It's
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like the ultimate sign to brand affinity
is when they just wear their logo across
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the shirt or a hat or something. So I'm like, yes, that
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that might be a sign of favorite. You know, when people are wearing
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your stuff because you don't sports stuff
that you're not like want to be associated
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with. They want people to know
that, yeah, this is me,
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you don't understand, don't care,
it's my favorite right. Not a bad
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way to measure it. How many? How many people we got sport and
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Swag? But the reason why I'm
excited about it is because the more fun
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we can bring to be to be, the more fun work becomes because B
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two B serves other businesses and other
people are working in those businesses, even
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if there will be two. See, the more fun we can make work,
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the better people's lives get, because
we all spend how many hours,
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James, of our lives? Our
Life, nine thousand freaking hours of your
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life is going to be spent at
work. Let's make it something worth celebrating,
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let's make it something worth like getting
passionate and geared up for. If
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we have to put ninety hours of
our life into this thing. Let's make
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it fun, let's bring some passion
into it, let's have some brands where
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we're gonna go like head to head
on and be like no, this one's
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better, no, this one's better, and we're just going after it right.
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It's just more fun. Let's make
the facts worth it. So,
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while we're gonna BE PUSHING IT for
B two B marketers, someone needs to
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be pushing it for chemists working in
the food industry, someone needs to be
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pushing it for, I don't know, like all the other all the other
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professions out there. Every profession needs
this, for doctors in small hospitals,
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like. There's so many professions and
niches they need a favorite, they need
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something to be passionate about in their
work, and you can do that brand,
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you can build the media property that
becomes that chemist's favorite, favorite podcast,
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favorite blog, favorite media brand.
That being said, Dan, do
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you want to tease what we're gonna
be talking about in, uh, in
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our next episode of the journey?
Dang, the next thing was almost going
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to be the thing around owned media, like we literally decided, almost decided
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that owned media was going to be
the thing. We decided to go be
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two B was the thing, but
owned media is still a big part of
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what we have coming in next week's
episode, when we do the next episode
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of the journey, and so going
going beyond the podcast and really talking about,
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you know, building a holistic media
brand. I'm really, really excited
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to talk about that. Dan.
If folks aren't already following you, where's
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the best place for for folks listening
to this to follow you elsewhere? Linkedin,
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00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:15.480
DOT COM, slash iron slash digital
marketing. Dan Man, I like
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it when people come from the show
over to Linkedin be like I listened to
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the show. I'm like, yes, we got we just got a message
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on on our I just got a
message the other day on on Linkedin.
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I shared it in our marketing slack. It was from Tricia Ruez and she
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said James, the Echo Chamber.
Yes, keep those episodes up. All
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three of you, all together,
bring so much value to the table.
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So thank you, Tricia. That
was that was for our Echo Chamber series.
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Hopefully we start to see some messages
like that for this series for the
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journey. But if you have not
already left a rating for B two B
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00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.839
growth either in spotify or apple podcast, make sure to do that. Those
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00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:56.599
ratings help us a ton as we
are on this quest to become ten thousand
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B two B marketers favorite show.
Thank you so much for listening and we'll
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talk to you soon.