A New Era for PLG, with Kyle Poyar

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:21.519 Today I am joined by Kyle Poyer. He is the operating partner at open 3 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:24.519 view. Kyle, welcome into B two be growth. Thanks for having me. 4 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:28.480 Glad to have you here. We're gonna jump in, but, Kyle, 5 00:00:28.519 --> 00:00:32.159 give me a thirty second kind of twitter length bio of what it means 6 00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:36.719 to be operating partner at open view. Keep it short. Well, first 7 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:42.000 off, open view invest in expansion stage software companies and then on the operating 8 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:46.399 side, we work closely with those companies to help them accelerate revenue growth and 9 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:50.920 hopefully dominate their market. And that could be, you know, just about 10 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:55.320 anything from top of funnel acquisition to product like growth to pricing and packaging. 11 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:59.240 Fantastic. Okay. So that, I think, sets the scene pretty well 12 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:02.399 for where we actually ago, because recently, you know, you had your 13 00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:07.040 hand in a piece that open view released called a new era for P L 14 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:11.760 G, introducing the age of connected work. Give me, I mean that's 15 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:14.200 why I reached out. So I want to chat all about that today. 16 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:17.400 Give me the origins of that piece and why you want to do a deep 17 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:21.439 dive here on connected work. Well, I guess just even zooming out to 18 00:01:21.640 --> 00:01:26.719 open view, coined the term product like growth back in uh, since then 19 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.719 it's become almost the household term in software. But we were realizing that the 20 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:36.680 ways that the best companies were applying P L G have just really changed. 21 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:42.120 And as everyone starts to DABBLE IN P L G concepts like free trial or 22 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:46.640 fremium product, you know, just offering that isn't enough to differentiate. You 23 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:49.959 actually have to go further. And at the same time, you know, 24 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:53.680 we as users of software, we've kind of changed the way we've interacted with 25 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.640 the software. There were chocks. Overnight from covid right, software went from 26 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:01.719 being optional to us like a core part of the way we do business and 27 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:07.040 the way we see our roles. And that actually means that our products have 28 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:10.759 to play different roles and how they reach uosers and how they you know, 29 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:15.319 how they grow. And so we've just seen enough changes in the market to 30 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:21.039 say we're in this new era for product like growth and we call it the 31 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:25.199 age of connected work. And the rationale there is that. I guess the 32 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:29.400 easiest way to explain it would be thinking about like how you how you have 33 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:32.759 a meeting today. So in the past a meeting might have been let's like 34 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:37.960 email back and forth to find a time. Maybe we'll meet up in person, 35 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:40.960 I'll take notes and a notebook. Maybe if I'm, you know, 36 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:46.360 following my salesforce hygiene best practice, and update salesforce later and add the notes 37 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:50.479 and and and send a cinemas follow up note. Well, now it's a 38 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:55.080 completely digital software enabled experience. So the meeting just happens the accountly, you 39 00:02:55.080 --> 00:03:00.439 know, both people find time that works for for one another. Zoom invite 40 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:06.400 gets sent out to both parties, being an API call, people hop on 41 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:09.639 and have a digital meeting, usually on zoom or teams, and then that 42 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:15.240 call us transcribed and uploaded into Gong, chorus, you name it. If 43 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:19.439 you want to send a follow up note, that might be set through an 44 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:24.319 automated email campaign and maybe you you use a grammarlaf type service to h to 45 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:28.759 make sure that it's it sounds as great as you wanted to sound, and 46 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.520 then, as the meeting happens, is all of that is updated in salesforce 47 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:38.159 automatically. So we're in this connected environment these days where not only were using 48 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:43.240 software, but software is working with other software, behind the scenes to automate 49 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:47.639 that entire jury collect data and software is almost like you can think of it 50 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:53.240 as a core utility these days, like if any of our services goes out, 51 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:58.400 like we're left totally in the dark. And Uh, it's a really 52 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:02.080 interesting, amazing time were software companies, but it's just, you know, 53 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:08.719 a fundamentally different era for what it looks like to sell software products or build 54 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:12.639 software products for this its current user. Yes, six years is a long 55 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:15.720 time of development and UH, the old way of doing things sounds a bit 56 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:20.040 like a nightmare at this point. Imagine I'm not being able to have set 57 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:25.639 up even this call without just like our calendars being sinked and oh, that 58 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:28.399 time works like. I never want to go back there. I never want 59 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:30.720 to go back to that email sequence. So I think you did a great 60 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:34.839 job laying out a number of those sort of subtle shifts. Now let's let's 61 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:39.040 dive into this piece. And obviously, for B two B growth, we're 62 00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:44.560 talking to marketers in the B two B space specifically. So you basically went 63 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:47.519 through and you said here's eleven P L G principles for the age of connected 64 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:51.279 work, and what I thought we would do is just take maybe four that 65 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:56.360 are most relevant to our marketing audience. So the four we're gonna hit on 66 00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:59.879 is in the piece it ends up being one, two, six and seven, 67 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:01.240 but for us it's one, two, three, four. Build your 68 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:06.480 end user, build to be discovered, build community as competitive advantage and deliver 69 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:13.279 instant product value. Tell me a bit of how you came to these, 70 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:16.720 the consensus around these eleven principles, before we dive into the four. Like, 71 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:21.120 were you going out and just surveying the software market? Were you talking 72 00:05:21.160 --> 00:05:25.879 to specific companies? What bubbled these eleven to the surface? Yeah, it 73 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:30.160 was multiple process, but really the key driver, honestly, was looking at 74 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:32.720 you know, we normally think about what does it take to you know, 75 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:36.759 grow quickly in terms of like hey, how fast are the public companies growing? 76 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:41.720 How how great are they're retaining customers? Okay, that's a benchmark for, 77 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:44.399 you know, what I want to do for my business. And we 78 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:48.319 kind of reverse engineered the process and we said, how are companies becoming outliers? 79 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:54.680 How are companies growing faster than others, growing more efficiently and just building 80 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:59.800 these really unique businesses? And we said what are the characteristics that these companies? 81 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:01.920 How a common you know, other companies have been doing some of but 82 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:10.160 these companies are doing consistently and becomes the framework for really the new operating manual 83 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:15.920 for building a software company in the and so that was really by studying those 84 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.160 companies that are the outliers, the best of the best. That helps. 85 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:23.879 That was the number one way that we we flagged. What are these cont 86 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:29.639 principles? Fantastic. Okay, so this first one here build for the end 87 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:32.800 user. What was the way of thinking, maybe, you know, a 88 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:36.600 few years back, and then compare contrast that to what this new development is 89 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:40.839 and the focus on the end user for me. Well, you know, 90 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:44.360 we used to always focus, especially you know there's marketers listening here right and 91 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:47.399 sales folks. We used to focus exclusively on that executive buyer, the one 92 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:50.560 that's going to write the check, is going to buy our product. The 93 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:56.160 website needs to be oriented to that person. We need to prioritize these folks 94 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:59.759 and, you know, to become M Q ls and eventually s qls, 95 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:04.439 that individual users who are experiencing the product day to day are kind of an 96 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:12.040 afterthought. That's where it came from, and now these users are really just 97 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:15.519 used to you know, really great experiences in their consumer lives. They're used 98 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:19.759 to software being just a fundamental part of their job and they're going out and 99 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:25.680 they're trying products to solve everyday problems or, you know, everyday workflows that 100 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:30.079 they have. They're sharing the products that they love with their teams and then 101 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:31.920 they're going to their boss and saying, Hey, we're using this, we're 102 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:36.120 seeing value less. Buy It as a company. Uh. And so all 103 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:42.000 of a sudden we went from the buyers having all the power to now the 104 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:46.879 users have the power and this changes how you actually have to build products, 105 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:49.720 market your products and sell products, and in a big way. To think 106 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:56.120 about it's like what is the user level pain that you're solving for, and 107 00:07:56.199 --> 00:08:00.319 that is very different from the buyer pain. So, like in sales tech, 108 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:03.720 buyers might care about, hey, how do I have visibility into my 109 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:07.160 team's pipeline? The sales rep cares about like I hate that back go forth 110 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:11.839 at scheduling meetings, and so that sales rep starts to use products like clently, 111 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:16.120 which is an open view portfolio company, or they use products like dually 112 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:22.040 as a note taking APP and you have to really understand that the user and 113 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.759 build with their pain point in mind, with the idea that as users start 114 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:31.399 to adopt more of the products share it with others, you eventually get the 115 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:37.080 permission to go solve for that buyer pain and have that that executive buy our 116 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:39.799 conversation. But that happens later on in the journey. Yeah, I love 117 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:43.240 how you summed it up in the article. To one line. You said 118 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:48.039 users are discovering products, sharing them with their colleagues and then telling their bosses 119 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:54.919 what to buy. And I think of even just my own software experiences and 120 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:58.720 I think a company that crushes at this is like a canva where they could 121 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:05.240 hit just a content creator, a social media marketing manager and that change their 122 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:09.120 life with a free version, and that's gonna just build that software then into 123 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:13.600 that team in such an integral way that eventually they're going to go and they're 124 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.279 gonna pay the price to bring that that type of software in and and they'll 125 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:20.559 go to their boss and talk about it's a play on word of mouth advertising, 126 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:26.000 word of Mouth Marketing. That, uh, ultimately, especially in a 127 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:31.679 buying committee decision building for the end users, very very helpful, but it 128 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:33.879 is a longer play. On that note, on one thing, just to 129 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:37.919 add one, because I think it's like a fascinating story and the company has 130 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:43.080 done crazy well. Right, can but it actually is like hated, I 131 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.559 think in some cases, or historically was hated by that executive. Right, 132 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:50.559 if you'RE A CMO and you've made everything on brand, you have designers who 133 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:56.000 are building decks, who are building your marketing collateral, the last thing you 134 00:09:56.039 --> 00:10:00.559 want is some road member of the team, some sales wrapp downloading Canada and 135 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:03.919 starting to create their own materials and sharing those prospects. They start doing it, 136 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:09.960 and that is exactly what happens. Is Canada kind of democratizes the design 137 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:13.679 process and so if Canada was trying to build with an executive focus, they 138 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:18.720 would have never built the product that they have in the first place. But 139 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:20.519 it turns out that, yeah, you're right, like eventually, if you 140 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:24.919 have a bunch of people inside of a large company that are adopting Canada, 141 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.159 that head of marketing is now probably going to say, Hey, let's actually 142 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:33.440 bring this in house, we'll start to bring our own templates in will instead 143 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:39.279 of like fighting the Canada. You know users in our organization, we're now 144 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:43.559 going to work with them and empower them and so the users actually ladder up 145 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:48.799 to that executive pain. It's just fascinating to think about. Like Canada would 146 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:54.679 never exist if they were only targeting the CMO. Absolutely any other key examples 147 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:56.759 that you want to highlight that you think do this really well? Well, 148 00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:01.879 you know, I think just about any L G product is going to do 149 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:07.159 this. But another product that I personally love as a user is Zapp here. 150 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:11.360 UH, ZAP here is a platform for integrating other applications, which has 151 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:16.720 has sortically been something that's like done by technical folks. Like they're going in 152 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:20.840 reaching out to I T and they're looking for like an integration platform as a 153 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:24.559 service, right, but it turns out a lot of like like everyday folks 154 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:30.399 have frustrations because their tools don't talk to each other. And my frustration was 155 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:33.399 I had contacts that were coming in through type form and I wanted to get 156 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:37.480 those hubspots so we could email them, and that was like proving to be 157 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:41.919 much more frustrating than it should have been. So just like googled how to 158 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:46.519 connect type form contact hub spot and Zapp had an amazing landing page around it 159 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.000 that explains how to do it and said you could just try it out for 160 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:54.200 free. So all of a sudden I was using Zapp here finding like hey, 161 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:58.720 this just works super well and then coming up with tons of other ways 162 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:03.159 of using the product. And just to me that that's such a powerful example 163 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:09.519 because I almost like felt like I was becoming a software developer, where it's 164 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:11.320 like I'm doing the thing that I thought you only could do if you had 165 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:16.039 special I t skills. But you know, by low code and no code 166 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:22.480 technologies and and a Pi based dueling, everyone can become a developer, which 167 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:26.039 is, you know, super powerful and, uh and motivating. M Well, 168 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:30.720 the second one we want to highlight here is build to be discovered, 169 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:33.080 and the line that stood out to me as you guys broke this down, 170 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:39.960 was now products are bought, not sold, and they're discovered, not presented. 171 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:43.759 Walk me through this shift to build to be discovered now. Well, 172 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:48.399 I think Zapp here is a great, great example, again just continuing to 173 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:50.720 pull on that thread. So if you're head of marketing, is that here, 174 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:54.879 and you were building a traditional B Two b software company, you would 175 00:12:54.879 --> 00:13:00.159 say, all right, who were the executives? Who where the whether Air 176 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:03.360 Forsonas? What's my ideal customer profile. We're going to write a lot of 177 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:07.559 content. They de gated white papers after this audience. We're going to target 178 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:11.480 them in our paid ads. WE'RE gonna go to trade shows and events where 179 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:16.919 their common we're gonna do webinars like we're gonna mail our demand Gen strategies. 180 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.759 But that's not how you reach the users. The users actually have a pain 181 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:26.399 point and they go to Google where they go to their chosen communities, folks 182 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:31.799 who they trust, and they just look for an everyday solution to their everyday 183 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:35.559 problem. And I think that's the genius is APP here is they built out 184 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:41.759 landing pages for every APP. They support every APP to APP integration and then 185 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:46.799 every specific workflow that users are trying to do and they've even, I think 186 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:50.679 they are able to use data on what are the most successful use cases and 187 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.519 then really double down on those in the products. But they're found not in 188 00:13:54.600 --> 00:14:01.120 a hyper specific, targeted way but through hundreds of hundreds of potential searches that 189 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:07.200 folks have that are very high intent searches. They're not people searching for an 190 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:11.200 integration platform as a service. There are people just searching for a solution to 191 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:15.200 an everyday problem and I think you know, there's so many great examples of 192 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:18.840 p LG marketing that kind of takes this principle and applies it. One great 193 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:24.960 just sort of tactical thing is how to content, like teaching people how to 194 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:30.360 solve the problem that brings them to your product and you can even dog food 195 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:33.000 your product in the in the process, like how to do Seo Research. 196 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.840 That's a great topic for not only a content feeds but to show showcase your 197 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:43.200 products. If if you have an SEO research tool or you know you can. 198 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:46.720 If your air cable, which is a maker of workflow experiences, are 199 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:50.960 kind of a no code APP creator, you know, you could use their 200 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:54.039 table for just about anything, and so they have a library of templates that 201 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.840 you know, probably they've made the day the community is made, and those 202 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:03.279 templates are, you know, different solutions that folks have found for things that 203 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:07.679 they couldn't do in other tools. And so as new users are saying, 204 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.000 Hey, I have a problem with X uh, they're able to search for 205 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:15.240 that, find it and then realize how they can use their tables to get 206 00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:18.639 it done. Hey, everyone, emily brady with sweet fish here. If 207 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.039 you've been listening to B two B growth for a while. You know, 208 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:26.159 we are big proponents of putting out original, organic content on Linkedin, but 209 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:28.360 one thing that has always been a struggle for a team like ours is easily 210 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:33.200 tracking the reach of that linkedin content. That is why we are really excited 211 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:37.039 about shield analytics. Since our team started using shield, we've been able to 212 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:41.480 easily track the reach and performance of our linkedin content without having to manually log 213 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:46.399 it ourselves. It automatically creates reports and generates dashboards that are incredibly useful to 214 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:50.120 determining things like what content has been performing the best, what days of the 215 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:54.080 week we're getting the most engagement and our average views. proposed. Shield has 216 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:58.240 been a game changer for our entire team's productivity and performance on Linkedin. I 217 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:02.399 highly suggest checking out this tool. If you're publishing content on Linkedin for yourself 218 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:04.399 or your company. You can get a ten day free trial at shield APP 219 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:08.799 DOT AI, or you can get a discount with our Promo Code B two 220 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:12.399 B growth. Again, that shield APP DOT AI and the Promo Code is 221 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:18.720 b. The numbers to be growth. All one word for discount. All 222 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:22.720 right, let's get back to the show, and those templates are, you 223 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:26.840 know, different solutions that folks have found for things that they couldn't do in 224 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:30.679 other tools. And so as new users are saying, Hey, I have 225 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.519 a problem with X uh, they're able to search for that, find it 226 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:37.960 and then realize how they can use their table to get it done. The 227 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.960 first really feels the second in my mind, because the more you're building for 228 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:47.840 that end user, the more you're realizing that how they search for tools, 229 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:52.360 and it creates like it fuels this build to be discovered piece, and I 230 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:59.919 think there's something to be said about being when someone googles some not even knowing 231 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.440 what they're going to find product wise, and you're that solution, you're that 232 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:06.920 how to. I mean that is exactly what marketers want to be, right. 233 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:10.200 That's where you want to be as a marketer. So I think again, 234 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:14.240 you get to build for the end user piece right, and the building 235 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:18.799 discover it flows right from that. Yeah, I totally agree, and you 236 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:21.400 know, I've talked a lot about like seo and Google. Other things to 237 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:26.480 think about, you know, from a marketing perspective, like marketplaces and partnerships 238 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:30.400 can come into play here. So if you're building a tool for shopify users, 239 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:33.400 right, like shopify merchants. You'RE gonna want to have a really great 240 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:37.440 presence on the shopify APP store, because that's where your audience is hanging out, 241 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:41.599 that's where they're searching for tools. You need to make sure that you 242 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:45.119 have the ratings, the reviews, you have really great content on that APP 243 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:51.519 store listing. And if you're potentially viral product, then folks who are using 244 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:55.160 your product might expose it to other people, which gives them the idea of 245 00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:57.559 how they can use it in the first place, and so you might want 246 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:02.319 to pay a lot of attention to that viral loop. And how do you 247 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:06.680 kind of educate? How do you encourage your existing customers to show your product 248 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:11.839 to other people or collaborate with them, and then how do you build experiences 249 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:14.880 to get those people who are exposed to the product to sign up on their 250 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:19.119 own? It flows actually pretty well into this idea of community, which is 251 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:25.160 where we want to go next, building community as a competitive advantage. There's 252 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:29.799 a lot of talk on this podcast, Kyle, about community building, and 253 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.759 so this is one that, if I mean you can't go a couple of 254 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.960 scrolls deep on linkedin without seeing a post on community. So we're all inundated 255 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:42.279 with this conversation, but this is a pivot of thinking of users as the 256 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:48.440 brand right like you may still have thought leadership content, but this is using 257 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:51.880 community as again, we said word of mouth play earlier, but this is 258 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:55.480 another way of doing that. I'm not sure, but you know the way 259 00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:59.480 we work with SAS companies, we see a leaning into community and content. 260 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:03.960 You actually outline to think, what like five community strategies. What are you 261 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:08.039 seeing when it comes to community specifically? Well, I think it's it is 262 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:12.160 important to kind of reinforce the point where, if you're building for the user 263 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:18.960 and you build a product that usually fall in love with, they can customize 264 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:22.599 easily on their own, they can connect with other products that they like, 265 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:26.720 all of a sudden the users essentially building something that they're going to want to 266 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.880 bring from job to job, from company to company, they're going to be 267 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:36.039 wanting to share with their team and they're gonna talk up the products that they 268 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:40.880 love because they feel such a strong connection to the brand as a user and, 269 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:44.079 you know, essentially as a developer of it. So I think a 270 00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:48.759 lot of this is when you have all of that user love and really great 271 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:52.519 goodwill, you could either say hey, look, this is great, I'm 272 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:56.079 glad this is happening, but I'm going to just focus on traditional brand building 273 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:00.680 and marketing bunches. or You could say, Hey, let's let's really help 274 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:06.480 and enable this community and find ways to foster the community, to connect with 275 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:11.079 others, share their experiences, provide a platform for these people, to really 276 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:15.680 elevate them and let's let them sort of build the brand on our behalfs and 277 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:18.960 we'll support them. And that's that's the mentality that more and more P L 278 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:22.960 G companies have been having, and so I think a lot of and a 279 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:27.279 lot of it too, you know from from the marketing perspective in this on 280 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:33.119 this podcast, is that if you look at anywhere on Linkedin or elsewhere these 281 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:36.640 days, like, you'll notice that people are responding to people. They're not 282 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:41.319 responding to brands. They look to. This is the rise of like influencers 283 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.519 and personal brands. But I think people trust other folks, and so the 284 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:49.640 more you can be affiliated with these power users who love your product and let 285 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:53.839 them speak on your behalf, the more trusted you're gonna be and the more 286 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:59.079 excited folks are gonna be a trying out your product. In terms of specific 287 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:02.400 ways that folks will community. I mean the default, right, is so 288 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:06.519 let's create a slack community, right, let's fate a slack channel for people 289 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:08.160 who are using our product to go talk to each other, or let's create 290 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:14.279 a forum. That is one approach that I tend to find that a community 291 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:18.599 needs to be much more thoughtful and purposeful than that, and that and slack 292 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:22.359 or or forums might be part of a community strategy, but they aren't the 293 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:26.440 community in and of itself. And so what I think about is like, 294 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:30.359 what are the needs of your users? What are they looking to do, 295 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:33.119 and how can you support them around their objectives? And one of the companies 296 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:38.559 I I love UH is web flow. So web flow started out as a 297 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:44.640 product for really freelance web designers and developers, and these are folks that don't 298 00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:48.920 necessarily have colleagues, that they're working on their own, but they really want 299 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:52.799 to just connect with people that are working on the same things they want. 300 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:56.400 They're really eager to help each other learn and they want to learn from one 301 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.680 another. And so web flow actually started their commune to the kind of a 302 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:04.519 last minute edition as part of the product launch, and now it is a 303 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:08.880 huge driver of growth for the business and they have really, you know, 304 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:14.279 starting out forums for people to interact with each other, but I think more 305 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:18.400 importantly, they have a showcase product where people can show off really the great 306 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:23.440 creations that they've built in web flow and then other folks can get inspired by 307 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:29.359 those creations maybe even repurpose or leverage some of the pieces of that for their 308 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.720 own work to accelerate their own work. And this is a great way for 309 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:37.680 freelancers to get noticed and find more business to take on and just gets them 310 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:42.839 to be able to have great conversations with people that they respect and they want 311 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:48.279 to learn from. And so this is so win win because it helps the 312 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:51.720 members of the community, their their users, achieve their own goals. It 313 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:56.400 brings in content generated by the community, which is great user generated content for 314 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:03.319 SEO purposes to be discoverable right and then also it's something that web flow can 315 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:07.599 really benefit from over the long term by really building a community built brand as 316 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:14.039 opposed to a tightly controlled sort of marketing. Lad Brand Yep. I love 317 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:19.279 the showcase or gallery model for software companies. I know Coda does a really 318 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:23.279 good job as well on the gallery side of things, featuring ways that people 319 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:30.279 are using Coda and then also, like anyone can post how they're using it 320 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:34.400 on there as well, so it's like featured and actual users posting, and 321 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:38.039 you that that mix is always nice as well, because you can feature specific 322 00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:41.559 things you want people to check out as far as new features and that sort 323 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:45.680 of thing, and you can do you can do brand connects right like Oh, 324 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.680 here's how this company is using our product, and you're both building awareness 325 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:52.720 for your brand and that that always looks good, but also having people that 326 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:56.960 are just chiming and going hey, look, I built this. That's going 327 00:23:56.039 --> 00:24:02.599 to create community organically in a way that, especially if like CODA's galleries just 328 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:07.400 right on their website, an easy way for people to see the endless options 329 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:11.200 of ways to use your software. So I think this one people think of 330 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:15.720 community and maybe, depending on where you've worked or what kind of community you've 331 00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:19.200 seen before, I put community and air quotes there. There's a development in 332 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:26.200 what it means. That is crucial and important to realize that it's not just 333 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:30.839 a slack channel, as you mentioned. Absolutely absolutely and even I mean I 334 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:36.160 think it's ideal to build these communities first party. But what's been fascinating to 335 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:38.759 watch is over the past kind of a couple of years has been a huge 336 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:45.720 push to even acquire independent communities that you could look at Pendo and mind the 337 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:52.200 product hubspot and the Hustle Stripe and indie hackers outreach and sales hacker zapp beer 338 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:56.240 and maker pad and the software companies have woken up to just how valuable these 339 00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:00.880 communities are. And, you know, community these have an audience that's highly 340 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:06.039 engaged but have a really hard time monetizing them. Software companies are really great 341 00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:10.359 at monetizing products but have a hard time attracting and engaging an audience, and 342 00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:15.000 so it's really win win to collaborate well to bring this episode home. We 343 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:18.160 got one more that we want to cover here, and that is to deliver 344 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.519 instant product value, and I'll just let you take this one away. What's 345 00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:26.119 the development here? Well, we used to think about, you know, 346 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:29.799 quick time to value is do something measured in like weeks or months, like 347 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:33.640 an easy to deploy product was just one that didn't require them that much, 348 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:38.920 like services or onboarding effort. But now people's expectations have changed and I think 349 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:44.799 this is often driven by our consumer experiences. We expect something to just like 350 00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:48.119 work out of the box and work self service. If we we want to 351 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:53.000 be able to sign up, ideally just using existing signing credentials right with like 352 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:57.559 Google, get hub, slack, whatever, and then have click through terms 353 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:00.960 and conditions. We you we run into any issues. We want to be 354 00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:06.960 able to search community threads or helped usk articles to just get answers, but 355 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:10.400 we just want to like get in and do it ourselves. We're more comfortable 356 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:14.119 with that and we expect that products should be able to work that way. 357 00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:17.799 And you know, people ask like how, what does instant product value mean, 358 00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:21.160 like how fast is instant? and to me it's always like incident is 359 00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:26.480 relative to the expectations of your customer and and what your competitors are doing. 360 00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:33.519 And so if your product that requires having multiple sales conversations and maybe even like 361 00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:37.440 purchasing the product before you can experience it and spending several weeks to do an 362 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:42.960 implementation, imagine what would happen if a user could just get started with a 363 00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:48.039 competitive product, set it up themselves, do that for free. They're all 364 00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:52.480 of a sudden going to have deployed a product before they might have even talked 365 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:57.400 to your sales reap, and so you've lost a deal without even, you 366 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:02.119 know, having a chance to compete, because you haven't been able to deliver 367 00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:06.200 on this principle of speed. And so I just think that more and more 368 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:11.200 companies are realizing that this is becoming table stakes in order to attract the kinds 369 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:15.799 of customers that folks want and just aligned with the other principles. Right. 370 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:21.920 So, if you're building a product that is built for this user as opposed 371 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:25.640 to just the executive buyer, that user discovers it, you know, maybe 372 00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:30.200 it's recommended by their community or maybe they see a community gallery and they see, 373 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:32.759 oh my God, this is a really great example. How can I 374 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:37.000 build this for myself? They would hate to be stopped there and have to 375 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:41.559 talk to someone before they could jump in. They love to even just find 376 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:47.559 that, you know, that featured template and a gallery and just start customizing 377 00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:49.680 it themselves, like jump into the product that's already built out. Like they 378 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:53.640 don't have a white space, it's just that template and they can move things 379 00:27:53.640 --> 00:28:00.200 around, uh, connect whatever existing software they need to, you know, 380 00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:03.359 and imagine from a user's perspective, at that point you have, you know, 381 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:10.240 essentially purchased enterprise software while feeling like you've just used something as a traditional 382 00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:15.839 consumer, and I think it's really a powerful experience for for those users and 383 00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:21.359 ring enforces, you know, what brings them into the community and it turns 384 00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:25.160 them into an evangelist for the brand. Yeah, this one's huge. I 385 00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:29.200 think the way you broke it down was really well said, and you think 386 00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:33.759 of it in understanding the product value and then also, like time, to 387 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:37.079 sharing it with others. When we go back to the community piece, if 388 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:40.759 that community is public in any way and someone is showing you the gallery, 389 00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:45.680 is showing you how the products being used, you're understanding the product value at 390 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:51.720 a much higher rate than the way B two B companies and software companies used 391 00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:55.480 to do this behind walls and demos and all the like. We're breaking that 392 00:28:55.519 --> 00:29:00.200 barrier in a very significant way and that matters to marketing quite a bit. 393 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:03.279 I think that's where I want to start to wrap this conversation. Kyle is 394 00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:07.640 going. Looking at these four if you were to give the marketers listening to 395 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:11.400 B to be growth today, some sort of take away, some sort of 396 00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:17.960 main lesson coming out of these developments, what would be our homework? Assignment, 397 00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:21.880 in a sense the mindset shift that we should be taking on. So 398 00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:26.559 the top takeaway is just starting from the beginning, right of uh, go 399 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:30.559 and study your the users of your product and what are they searching for, 400 00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:34.200 like? What are the what are the friction points that they run into that 401 00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:37.480 caused them to turn to Google or turn to a friend and look for a 402 00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:42.079 solution? And you know, I think that'll help you reach it like an 403 00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:48.039 an Aha moment around how to unlock a better P L G opportunity for your 404 00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:52.640 own company. And if you don't have that, you know, foundation of 405 00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:56.200 the end user focus, anything you do that you think is p LG, 406 00:29:56.440 --> 00:30:00.640 like give you a lunch of free trial or from me in product, without 407 00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:03.119 that foundation is probably gonna fall flat. And so I would start there. 408 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:08.119 And if you're as a marketer, can bring that voice of the user into 409 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:14.000 your organization, I think you can find really powerful ways to attract a lot 410 00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:17.640 more people who are interested in your products at a low cost, because there 411 00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:22.680 might be dozens or hundreds of potential end users for every executive in an organization, 412 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:26.039 and all of your competitors might be so focused on that executive and spending 413 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:32.160 all their AD budget there that they're not actually discovered by by users, and 414 00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:36.799 so you can really take advantage of opportunities that have been neglected and I think 415 00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:41.559 you can become the champion for P L G in your organization and driving that 416 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:45.640 end user mindset cross functions. I love it. Again, build for the 417 00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:49.920 end user, build to be discovered, build community as a competitive advantage and 418 00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:56.960 deliver instant product value. The article is called a new era for P L 419 00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:00.119 G, introducing the age of connected work. You can find a link in 420 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:03.680 our show notes and you can go through all of the eleven principles that Kyle 421 00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:08.480 and the team over at open view have laid out for us. Kyle, 422 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:12.039 thanks for breaking this down. Man, it's been a really fun conversation. 423 00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.000 I love nerd ing out on this stuff. You know your your content really 424 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.240 well and this was a really insightful piece. Yea, it was my pleasure. 425 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.599 I appreciate it. Y. What's the best way for people to connect 426 00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:26.079 with you and and open view as well? So you can follow me on 427 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:32.920 Linkedin. I put put out content multiple times a week and subscribed by newsletter 428 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:37.000 which is called growth unhinged. It's a free subject newsletter, and then the 429 00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:41.759 open view blog you can access just by you know, pretty easily, O 430 00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:47.519 v DOT VC or open view partners dot com, slash blog. Either way, 431 00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:51.359 I take you there and we as a as a company or just constantly 432 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:56.440 putting out new thought leadership around product my growth, whether it's on our blog, 433 00:31:56.680 --> 00:32:00.240 in our podcast or or our newsletter, and so highly wreck men. 434 00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:02.920 That is a resource for folks for sure. Kyle, thanks so much for 435 00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:07.200 being on B two B growth today. Yeah, thanks showing me on to 436 00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:09.720 all of our listeners. Thank you for checking out this episode. We want 437 00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:14.039 to help fuel your growth and innovation in your organization. So if you haven't 438 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:16.079 followed the PODCAST, be sure to do that. You can connect with me 439 00:32:16.119 --> 00:32:19.880 on Linkedin as well, search Benji Block. I would love to talk to 440 00:32:19.880 --> 00:32:22.400 you about marketing, business or life over there, and we'll be back real 441 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:37.559 soon with another episode. B Two B growth is brought to you by the 442 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.960 team at sweet fish media. 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