1348: 5 Steps to Improve Sales to CS Handoffs w/ Megan Bowen

WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:07.830 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm looking lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:07.870 --> 00:00:12.109 I am very excited to introduce today's guest. She is a new friend 3 00:00:12.109 --> 00:00:15.150 of mine over the past a few weeks and months, Megan Bowen. She 4 00:00:15.310 --> 00:00:19.550 is the chief customer officer over at refine labs. Meg and welcome to the 5 00:00:19.589 --> 00:00:22.219 show. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. Thank you so 6 00:00:22.339 --> 00:00:25.059 much for having me, Logan. I'm super excited to be here and chat 7 00:00:25.100 --> 00:00:28.980 with you. I love it. Megan, who is your favorite character out 8 00:00:29.019 --> 00:00:32.740 of the ENTIRE MARVEL COMIC UNIVERSE? We love to get to know guess a 9 00:00:32.740 --> 00:00:35.140 little bit and as you and I were jam and I thought that's got to 10 00:00:35.140 --> 00:00:39.890 be the opening questioning today. Absolutely I have to say iron man. He's 11 00:00:40.009 --> 00:00:45.009 my favorite and you gotta love how Robert Danny Jr represents them and in the 12 00:00:45.049 --> 00:00:48.929 marvel movies. So good, so good. Well, Megan, we're going 13 00:00:48.969 --> 00:00:53.240 to be talking about an area of extreme passion for you today, and that 14 00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:57.280 is customer success. You know a lot of folks are listening to this or 15 00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:00.359 probably very familiar with your CEO, Chris Walker, following him on Linkedin. 16 00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:03.750 He talks a lot about kind of out with the old in with the new 17 00:01:03.790 --> 00:01:07.909 when it comes to marketing, and you're passionate about marketing for sure, but 18 00:01:08.150 --> 00:01:15.030 especially customer experience, customer success, and we've had so many times guests talk 19 00:01:15.030 --> 00:01:18.430 about sales and marketing alignment, sales and marketing alignment, sales and marketing harmony, 20 00:01:18.739 --> 00:01:21.579 and see us is kind of sitting over here like Hey, hold on 21 00:01:21.700 --> 00:01:25.500 a second, and just hearing your passionate about that. Recently I'm rereading, 22 00:01:25.819 --> 00:01:29.939 or read listening to, Joey Coleman's book never lose a customer in right now 23 00:01:30.019 --> 00:01:34.530 and I just thought, and this is very timely, to talk about customer 24 00:01:34.569 --> 00:01:38.489 success as it relates to the other two functions that kind of get all the 25 00:01:38.650 --> 00:01:42.129 limelight all the time. So tell us a little bit about your journey. 26 00:01:42.129 --> 00:01:48.040 How did you become so passionate about customer success specifically, and customer experience as 27 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.920 it spans? Can All three of those typical functions? Yeah, absolutely so. 28 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:55.760 I've spent the last fifteen years of my career focused on customer success. 29 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:00.480 I started as an account manager at an Ed kept company and did that for 30 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:05.230 almost seven years, and so really mastered the function of working with customers from 31 00:02:05.430 --> 00:02:10.550 everything, starting with implementation, training, renewal, up cell retention, engagement, 32 00:02:10.629 --> 00:02:15.099 growth, advocacy. Really I had a passion for working with customers and 33 00:02:15.259 --> 00:02:20.060 felt that it was a role where you could really exercise so many different skills 34 00:02:20.379 --> 00:02:23.020 and so many different challenges come up all the time. And once I moved 35 00:02:23.099 --> 00:02:25.979 on from that job, I went to ZOC DOC. I was there early 36 00:02:27.020 --> 00:02:30.650 days, started on the customer support line, so was picking up calls from 37 00:02:30.689 --> 00:02:35.050 doctors and patients all day long and after doing that for about nine months, 38 00:02:35.050 --> 00:02:38.490 realize that we needed to build out a better postsale functioned on board our doctors 39 00:02:38.569 --> 00:02:43.650 properly to ensure that both the patient and doctor experience was seamless, and so 40 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:46.240 they gave me the opportunity to build out the post sale team at SOC DOC, 41 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:50.800 which was incredible. We did about eighteen months. Started with three people, 42 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.719 built the team to twenty five and all playbooks process systems from the ground 43 00:02:53.719 --> 00:03:01.030 up. Dramatically improved our patient and PS, dramatically reduced our doctor churn and 44 00:03:01.389 --> 00:03:07.789 was an incredible learning experience for me in building a team and really understanding everything 45 00:03:07.830 --> 00:03:12.229 that goes into designing a customer experience. After Zack doc I went to grub 46 00:03:12.270 --> 00:03:16.060 hub, seamless and had another opportunity to build out a B Tob Account Management 47 00:03:16.099 --> 00:03:20.419 and customer success function there. So it was incredible to take what I learned 48 00:03:20.460 --> 00:03:23.419 at ZOC DOC and apply it to a different business and my time there was 49 00:03:23.460 --> 00:03:28.729 super exciting. I joined posts the seamless and grubhub merger, but right before 50 00:03:28.770 --> 00:03:30.409 the IPO. So it is really great to be part of that experience. 51 00:03:30.689 --> 00:03:35.930 And my last two years there were really interesting because we had acquired a lot 52 00:03:35.969 --> 00:03:42.000 of other b tob food delivery companies and my task was to migrate those customers 53 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:46.319 from the platform of the acquired company to our platform, and that was another 54 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:52.560 really interesting exercise and really understanding the customer journey and the customer experience. Features, 55 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:55.030 product pricing, all of those things were different. And how how are 56 00:03:55.069 --> 00:04:00.310 you going to migrate a population of four thousand customers across five other different platforms 57 00:04:00.430 --> 00:04:03.909 onto ours? And learned to ton about change management, how to handle expectations, 58 00:04:04.469 --> 00:04:09.990 had to get in front of issues. So wonderful experience there. Company 59 00:04:10.020 --> 00:04:12.699 got really big. I was ready to go back to start up. Found 60 00:04:12.740 --> 00:04:15.579 myself at a company called manage by Q, where I built out there be 61 00:04:15.699 --> 00:04:20.420 tob account management function again at Q, though, my scope really increased and 62 00:04:20.899 --> 00:04:25.730 to the topic that you were bringing up, I eventually was managing all go 63 00:04:25.850 --> 00:04:29.649 to market teams, marketing, say, aals, success, operations support, 64 00:04:30.209 --> 00:04:34.250 and I really understood the importance of alignment across all of those teams and how 65 00:04:34.410 --> 00:04:39.199 that really connected to delivering a great customer experience. I think only when I 66 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:43.360 had that scope did I have those Aha moments and was able to have a 67 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.000 bird's eye view of how how those functions would work well together, how they 68 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:49.600 would not work well together and and what you had to do to create the 69 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:56.589 right conditions for proper internal team collaboration, ultimately resulting in a great customer experience. 70 00:04:57.230 --> 00:04:59.990 I love that. I want to I want to dig into some of 71 00:05:00.149 --> 00:05:04.149 the some of the learning specifically and how you implemented that as we get further 72 00:05:04.389 --> 00:05:08.259 in the conversation, Megan. But I had to stop you there because you 73 00:05:08.300 --> 00:05:12.060 mentioned it in Aha moment and we hear a lot of people say, Oh, 74 00:05:12.139 --> 00:05:15.100 it costs so much less to upsell an existing customer or even just to 75 00:05:15.300 --> 00:05:19.860 retain an existing customer, and realize that revenue versus. To sell a new 76 00:05:19.899 --> 00:05:24.689 customer, the odds are higher, the costs or lower, and everybody kind 77 00:05:24.689 --> 00:05:27.610 of pays lip service to that, but it seems like they haven't had that 78 00:05:27.689 --> 00:05:30.889 Aha moment of this is worth the investment. I mean Joey Coleman talks about 79 00:05:31.089 --> 00:05:34.959 the number of books and sales and marketing versus customer care, customer success, 80 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:39.879 customer experience. Why do you think so many people are missing out on that? 81 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:45.040 Is it because those functions organizationally haven't been brought together, like in your 82 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:48.240 experience where you were over all of those go to market functions? I think 83 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:54.829 that it has to do with the way that businesses primarily grew. You know, 84 00:05:54.949 --> 00:06:00.310 twenty years ago sales was king and you know, net new customer acquisition 85 00:06:00.629 --> 00:06:05.379 was how companies grew. Often contracts were long term contracts, huge payments up 86 00:06:05.459 --> 00:06:11.100 front and the bulk of revenue coming into the company was from the sales team. 87 00:06:11.139 --> 00:06:15.779 I think with the shift to the subscription economy, what happened was instead 88 00:06:15.779 --> 00:06:19.930 of the seller having the power, the customer has the power now and when 89 00:06:19.930 --> 00:06:25.009 you actually look at the amount of revenue coming into an organization, especially like 90 00:06:25.089 --> 00:06:30.370 a Sass Organization, most of the revenue in year is coming from the customer 91 00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:32.560 base. Eighty to ninety percent of that and only you know, a small 92 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:38.240 percentage is net new. Obviously that compounds as you go forward. Sales is 93 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:42.839 important. You obviously need a sales team, but I think that the economy 94 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:46.189 shifted, business is shifted, but the strategies in the playbooks that people used 95 00:06:46.350 --> 00:06:51.269 didn't, and so I think only recently our people starting to understand the importance, 96 00:06:51.310 --> 00:06:56.189 but we still have a long way to go in proper investment in the 97 00:06:56.350 --> 00:07:01.699 team, including salaries, systems, training enablement. There's a lot more attention 98 00:07:01.779 --> 00:07:05.660 than I believe should be paid to the customer success function and it should be 99 00:07:05.779 --> 00:07:10.620 value just as much as sales and marketing. All three of those functions are 100 00:07:10.620 --> 00:07:14.139 critical and I think should be on equal footing. Yeah, if you were 101 00:07:14.180 --> 00:07:16.769 going to start somewhere today, Megan, and maybe this is different. You 102 00:07:16.850 --> 00:07:19.569 know, I posted on about this on Linkedin and I don't know if my 103 00:07:19.730 --> 00:07:24.290 experience now with a service based business, which you guys are as well at 104 00:07:24.329 --> 00:07:29.649 refine labs, I feel like sales and customer success alignment, especially in a 105 00:07:29.689 --> 00:07:33.279 service space business, is almost more important than sales and marketing alignment it. 106 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:36.120 Maybe we're splitting hairs a little bit there, but you know, if you're 107 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:41.240 thinking about those three major functions and thinking about the customer experience, which is 108 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:44.870 overlaying all three of those. Is is how I think about it. A 109 00:07:44.910 --> 00:07:47.310 lot of people use those interchangeably and I think that's a that's a mistake. 110 00:07:47.990 --> 00:07:51.829 Where do you or maybe we can dig into your previous experience? Where did 111 00:07:51.829 --> 00:07:57.269 you kind of start in bringing those functions together? Was it bringing sales and 112 00:07:57.350 --> 00:08:01.100 cus together? Break it down for us a little bit in in that experience, 113 00:08:01.100 --> 00:08:03.620 because I think you mentioned even outside of those three functions, you had 114 00:08:03.740 --> 00:08:07.339 kind of per view across all of them. Where did you kind of start? 115 00:08:07.420 --> 00:08:11.819 Because I know from Joey Coleman he said in all the research he's done, 116 00:08:11.220 --> 00:08:16.009 folks realize customer experience is really important. It's a key differentiator, it's 117 00:08:16.009 --> 00:08:20.089 a way to grow profits, but they don't know where to start. And 118 00:08:20.290 --> 00:08:24.209 so where did you start? I guess in that previous experience during the Aha 119 00:08:24.329 --> 00:08:28.480 moment. Absolutely so. I do think you need to start with the sales 120 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:35.039 process and there are two critical components of the sales process that have a profound 121 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:39.639 impact on whether the customer is going to be successful. And and and if 122 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:41.509 the customer success team is going to be able to retain them. And so 123 00:08:43.149 --> 00:08:46.549 the two things are the sales team needs to be selling to the right customer. 124 00:08:46.750 --> 00:08:50.230 So your company needs to have a very tightly defined ideal customer profile ICP 125 00:08:50.870 --> 00:08:56.659 and the sales team needs to be incentivized to only acquire those customers. There 126 00:08:56.700 --> 00:09:01.379 are lots of customers that can probably use some component of your product, but 127 00:09:01.620 --> 00:09:05.740 you know every product or service has an ideal customer where it is the best 128 00:09:05.779 --> 00:09:09.419 fit, and so that's critical to get alignment there and ensure that goals and 129 00:09:09.539 --> 00:09:13.529 incentives support acquiring just those types of customers. I love that. I feel 130 00:09:13.529 --> 00:09:18.970 like we skip the eye in ICP so often. Right, if salespeople are 131 00:09:20.210 --> 00:09:24.720 incented to bring in revenue and not necessarily what I would call good revenue, 132 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:28.240 which means it's stickier, it's lower likelihood to churn, how do you go 133 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.840 about that? How do you how do you you know, just in maybe 134 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:37.759 broad strokes, INCENTII salespeople to not just go after revenue. It seems like 135 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:41.629 kind of a good idea, but how do you start to implement that in 136 00:09:41.750 --> 00:09:43.750 practice? Yeah, when I took over the sales team, it manage by 137 00:09:43.750 --> 00:09:48.710 Q. I made some comp plan changes because I saw that always fun to 138 00:09:48.789 --> 00:09:52.860 shoe. Yeah, to support this. And so once we went through our 139 00:09:52.860 --> 00:09:58.700 own exercise to redefine our our ICP and felt good about what that looked like, 140 00:10:00.419 --> 00:10:03.740 we did realize that probably about forty percent of new customers that were coming 141 00:10:03.779 --> 00:10:11.250 in we're falling outside that, and so we adjusted our compensation plan and made 142 00:10:11.289 --> 00:10:16.049 it really clear that we were only going to be compensating them for customers that 143 00:10:16.129 --> 00:10:20.610 did fit the profile. And, you know, it was a big change 144 00:10:20.649 --> 00:10:22.600 for the team. A tactic that we use to implement it so that it 145 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:30.080 was more well received was to focus on really breaking down the unit economics of 146 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:33.840 them bringing on customers that were outside the ICP and actually showing them that the 147 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:39.389 company loses money if we on board a customer that is not the right fit 148 00:10:39.830 --> 00:10:43.549 and how it's made absolutely no sense for them, you know, for us 149 00:10:43.549 --> 00:10:48.110 to pay them commission on a customer that isn't profitable to the business, and 150 00:10:48.230 --> 00:10:50.940 if they care about the long term ability of the company, you know they 151 00:10:50.980 --> 00:10:54.620 don't want to do that either and that their time is much more well spent. 152 00:10:54.779 --> 00:10:58.059 Yeah, yeah, so walking them through the really the payback of that 153 00:10:58.220 --> 00:11:03.259 customer acquisition cost. Or here's the payback on the CAC right and commission included 154 00:11:03.259 --> 00:11:07.610 in that sort of stuff and kind of painting the business case for it. 155 00:11:07.210 --> 00:11:11.009 I love that because I think so often we treat sales people is just just 156 00:11:11.210 --> 00:11:16.090 do your job, just sell customer success people, just just close tickets, 157 00:11:16.210 --> 00:11:20.759 just do this and we forget to kind of get buy in at a strategic 158 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:22.879 level. And that doesn't just mean like can you recite the company vision? 159 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:26.960 It's Hey, this is how you're impacting the bottom line, this is how 160 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:33.590 you're impacting profitability and and these are the trickledown effects of that. Trying to 161 00:11:33.629 --> 00:11:35.830 get economic or political here, but it's just the the term I could use 162 00:11:35.870 --> 00:11:41.029 their trickle down effects of that within the organization to you and to your bottom 163 00:11:41.070 --> 00:11:46.070 line. So you pair that kind of giving them giving them a broader vision. 164 00:11:46.110 --> 00:11:48.820 I love that. What were some of the things like? Was it 165 00:11:48.220 --> 00:11:52.539 ten different criteria based on the the customer profile? So it it sounds like 166 00:11:52.580 --> 00:11:56.980 you didn't structure it around. Well, if they if they churn in the 167 00:11:56.019 --> 00:11:58.899 first four months, we're going to have like a clawback or something like that. 168 00:12:00.059 --> 00:12:03.809 It was literally like you need to verify these things in your qualification for 169 00:12:05.090 --> 00:12:09.129 this deal. To count as as commissionable revenue right correct, and we had 170 00:12:09.929 --> 00:12:13.850 we had two primary criteria. That was black and white, and so employee 171 00:12:13.929 --> 00:12:20.120 count was one of them. And in our particular business at the time there 172 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.559 was a classification for the type of building that they were in where we knew 173 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:26.440 they would require our services, are cleaning and maintenance services. So they were 174 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:35.110 two very objective criteria that could be identified independently of whatever a sales ret believed. 175 00:12:35.629 --> 00:12:37.909 And to go back to your original question, I think the other thing 176 00:12:37.909 --> 00:12:41.950 that's really important in the sales process that sets up customer success for success is 177 00:12:43.149 --> 00:12:48.059 expectation management and so not overpromising, being really up front about what to expect 178 00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:52.259 in the process. And you know, I always say that a leading cause 179 00:12:52.299 --> 00:12:56.100 of churn is poor on boarding. And so that handoff, you know, 180 00:12:56.179 --> 00:13:00.929 selling to the right customer and managing their expectations, and then the handoff from 181 00:13:00.970 --> 00:13:05.690 the salesperson to the customer success person and the first experience with the customer success 182 00:13:05.730 --> 00:13:11.649 manager, and that first thirty days is the most critical time frame in the 183 00:13:11.690 --> 00:13:16.039 customer journey. This sets the tone and if you mess up here it's really 184 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:20.559 difficult to recover. If you get it right, your customer will be much 185 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:22.919 more forgiving if there any issue. Use Our mistakes down the road, and 186 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:28.789 so I think that that's where I start. Once I gut check and make 187 00:13:28.830 --> 00:13:33.909 sure that sales isn't bringing on bad customers or setting bad expectations, I immediately 188 00:13:35.070 --> 00:13:39.830 focus on how am I going to design the handoff and on boarding process, 189 00:13:39.389 --> 00:13:43.740 and that's a collaborative effort between the sales and the customer success team. I 190 00:13:43.899 --> 00:13:48.940 love that. I definitely want to dig into that handoff process because I couldn't 191 00:13:48.980 --> 00:13:52.860 agree more. You know, as we're ringing the Sales Gong and celebrating the 192 00:13:52.940 --> 00:13:56.649 new logo, that's the emotional journey that we're on from the vendor side, 193 00:13:56.690 --> 00:14:01.330 from the company side, the customer. Joey Coleman talks about this little bit. 194 00:14:01.370 --> 00:14:05.490 The moment they sign it's like yes, I've found the solution I've been 195 00:14:05.529 --> 00:14:11.159 looking for. But shortly after that is the biggest opportunity for buyers remorse because 196 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:13.159 they've put their neck on the line, especially in a B to be purchased. 197 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.240 Don't tell me, be to be buying is not emotional. If I 198 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:20.919 buy the wrong deodorant on Amazon, free returns, baby, drop it on 199 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.190 the on the front porch. No problem right. I may have emotionally decided 200 00:14:24.350 --> 00:14:28.350 on trying a new product or whatever, but the emotions tied with me being 201 00:14:28.429 --> 00:14:31.230 the decisionmaker, even if it was by committee, if I was the one 202 00:14:31.309 --> 00:14:35.389 really championing this. My neck is on the line. It could be a 203 00:14:35.590 --> 00:14:41.299 career maker or breaker, and so recognizing that disconnect I think is really important. 204 00:14:41.379 --> 00:14:46.940 In the handoff recognizes that emotional journey of the buyer and and tries to 205 00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:50.220 address it. So I definitely want to dig in there. But before we 206 00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:54.009 leave the designing the sales process again, you broke it down into two things. 207 00:14:54.409 --> 00:14:58.529 Making sure that sales is bringing on the right customers, and how do 208 00:14:58.610 --> 00:15:03.129 you structurally do that, and to making sure that they're setting proper expectations. 209 00:15:03.529 --> 00:15:07.240 You know it in our world at sweet fish I'm a sales team of one 210 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:11.960 and one thing I've I've started to do in a couple different areas is realize, 211 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:13.799 hey, this is a really easy way for me to kind of explain 212 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:18.679 what sort of podcasting we do. Like we do interview based podcast that are, 213 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:22.350 you know, if doing yourself in your garage with bad audio quality and 214 00:15:22.470 --> 00:15:24.830 no editing and throwing it up on soundcloud. It's over here on one end 215 00:15:26.110 --> 00:15:31.789 and this American life or NPR sort of narrative storytelling or serial or something like 216 00:15:31.909 --> 00:15:33.269 that is on this end. This is kind of where we fit on the 217 00:15:33.629 --> 00:15:39.820 spectrum. We do not do NPR type of narrative podcasts and just making and 218 00:15:39.980 --> 00:15:41.940 saying to the customer like is that what you're looking for? No, no, 219 00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:45.259 we kind of like, you know, we listen to an example of 220 00:15:45.299 --> 00:15:46.779 a show you guys producing. That's fun. Okay, sweet, now we 221 00:15:46.899 --> 00:15:50.970 can now we can move forward. So I try to do those sorts of 222 00:15:50.009 --> 00:15:54.570 things to to almost disqualify the the areas where I know we've kind of, 223 00:15:54.769 --> 00:15:58.929 for lack of a better term, stepped in it before. What are some 224 00:15:58.049 --> 00:16:03.690 of the other things for sales leaders or for maybe CR rows or someone who 225 00:16:03.730 --> 00:16:07.039 is looking to do this with their sales team and get them to do better 226 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:11.200 at at expectation setting, either when it comes to their product, their their 227 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:15.840 service, what they are, what they aren't, or what the onboardings going 228 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.549 to look like, and not over promise and under the liver. I'd love 229 00:16:18.590 --> 00:16:22.990 to dig into that and then we can talk about the handoff process, because 230 00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:26.909 I think that is vital absolutely so. It starts in the discovery. I 231 00:16:27.110 --> 00:16:32.389 think that it's really important that a sales rep does a very thorough discovery and 232 00:16:32.629 --> 00:16:37.899 really understands what is the customers pain point, why do they want, why 233 00:16:37.899 --> 00:16:41.059 are they talking to us? Why would they buy from us? What are 234 00:16:41.139 --> 00:16:45.980 we solving for them, and then what business outcome or desired result are they 235 00:16:47.059 --> 00:16:52.009 expecting if we solve that problem effectively, and I think that if a proper 236 00:16:52.090 --> 00:16:56.929 discovery is not done and it's just done on the surface level, you can 237 00:16:56.090 --> 00:17:00.009 miss a lot of really important information that might come up and onboarding that could 238 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:07.720 ruin the the situation. So it starts with a thorough discovery and really connecting 239 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:11.960 their pain point and business outcome back to how our product or service can help 240 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:18.190 deliver that. I think the second component is setting the right expectations for what 241 00:17:18.390 --> 00:17:25.230 the engagement will look like and when they can expect to see results and what 242 00:17:25.470 --> 00:17:30.500 will be required from the customer. What is their required level of involvement in 243 00:17:30.299 --> 00:17:34.460 order for results to come? And so those are really the key areas that 244 00:17:34.539 --> 00:17:41.339 aren't always covered as thoroughly as I think that they could be. To ensure 245 00:17:41.380 --> 00:17:45.089 that we have the right information and we've actually identified that this customer is a 246 00:17:45.210 --> 00:17:48.289 great fit for us and that if they commit to this and we commit to 247 00:17:48.410 --> 00:17:52.690 that, that we can deliver this result by x time frame and we're all 248 00:17:52.730 --> 00:17:56.049 aligne that. That's what we're working on together. Man. That is so 249 00:17:56.250 --> 00:17:59.359 good, men, and I think it is a subtle shift, but it 250 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:03.680 really changes the course of that customer experience from the sales process to on boarding 251 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.400 to getting results. Joey Coleman, I know I'm quoting the book a bunch 252 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:10.680 and I'm just kind of paraphrasing, but he says, you know, a 253 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:15.910 sale doesn't really happen until the customer has received the result, as sale isn't 254 00:18:15.950 --> 00:18:18.670 complete. I get I think is the way said it. I think he's 255 00:18:18.710 --> 00:18:21.710 quoting someone else. So anyway, check out the book and I don't want 256 00:18:21.750 --> 00:18:25.630 to steal quotes, but so understanding. Why are they buying right like in 257 00:18:25.789 --> 00:18:29.140 our case? Again, just to give a tactical example, sometimes people are 258 00:18:29.220 --> 00:18:33.900 buying our service because they want to use content based networking to interview potential customers, 259 00:18:33.940 --> 00:18:37.099 build relationships and create content along with that. But it's a different focus 260 00:18:37.579 --> 00:18:42.049 than if it's all about thought leadership. Why a brand is coming to us 261 00:18:42.130 --> 00:18:47.490 to have their podcast. They're not necessarily interested in the relationship building aspect. 262 00:18:47.490 --> 00:18:49.890 They're trying to develop their CEO as a thought leader, and that's the number 263 00:18:49.930 --> 00:18:52.690 one. So those could be two reasons why people buy from us, but 264 00:18:52.809 --> 00:18:56.240 understanding which one of those is it. And then I love what you said. 265 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:00.359 I think a lot of sales people hesitate to say well, we're going 266 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.160 to need this from you right, but just saying that, and like one 267 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:07.279 of the things I've done is hey, Mr customer or Mrs Customer, during 268 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:12.430 your launch process we're going to need some stakeholders on weekly calls and if you 269 00:19:12.509 --> 00:19:15.309 do that we're going to be able to launch your podcast much more quickly than 270 00:19:15.589 --> 00:19:19.230 if we have to play this game of telephone. That feels a lot better 271 00:19:19.589 --> 00:19:25.539 me asking that to the customer then our producer asking that post sale, like 272 00:19:25.740 --> 00:19:27.700 hey, we need to get more people involved in they're like, oh gosh, 273 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:30.980 I didn't you know. I didn't anticipate that. And I think sales 274 00:19:32.019 --> 00:19:34.619 people think that's going to slow down or make the the process seem less than 275 00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:38.170 perfect. But let's face it, our prospects know that it's not going to 276 00:19:38.210 --> 00:19:42.210 be perfect. For One to knowing that ahead of time, they're going to 277 00:19:42.250 --> 00:19:45.690 be fine with it. It's knowing it after the fact, right. It's 278 00:19:45.730 --> 00:19:49.490 knowing after the fact the penalty for not having the rental car insurance and a 279 00:19:49.529 --> 00:19:52.759 Ding in the door or the early termination of our our cell phone. But 280 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.480 when it's communicated up front, then then we're a okay with that. And 281 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.440 three, it shows the prospect that you know what the heck you're doing, 282 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.519 you've done this before and you're setting them up for for success. So I 283 00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:10.430 think that's that's a really important point. Communicating the why and then also communicating 284 00:20:10.430 --> 00:20:14.309 the what and specifically what's expected of them. Megan, let's talk a little 285 00:20:14.309 --> 00:20:18.589 bit more about that handoff process. What are some of your maybe top three? 286 00:20:18.710 --> 00:20:22.059 Do this not that? When it comes to handoff between sales and customer 287 00:20:22.099 --> 00:20:29.180 success, it's really important that the sales rap gives the customer success manager a 288 00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:34.420 full debrief of everything that happened in the sales process. Sometimes they'll be a 289 00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:40.250 requirement, you know, update these fields in the crm and then the CSM 290 00:20:40.369 --> 00:20:42.930 can look at that and get up to speed. And that is not enough. 291 00:20:44.529 --> 00:20:48.569 There needs to be a conversation between the Sales Rep and the customer success 292 00:20:48.609 --> 00:20:51.720 manager about every account that is handed off, and I don't care how long 293 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:56.000 that takes. I often will create teams. You can, you know, 294 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:57.240 depending on the structure, in the size of your teams, if you can 295 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:02.799 pair up sales reps and CSMS together, that can be really powerful because they 296 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:07.069 can build a great collaboration and learn how each other work and ensure that handoffs 297 00:21:07.069 --> 00:21:12.829 go smoothly. The next thing is do not handoff over email, handoff over 298 00:21:12.869 --> 00:21:17.589 a phone call. So there needs to be a handoff call, that is 299 00:21:17.710 --> 00:21:21.500 before the onboarding call, where the sales rep, the customer and the CSM 300 00:21:21.539 --> 00:21:26.460 are all on the call together. The sales rep restates what the customer pain 301 00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:30.220 points are, why they decided to buy, what they're hoping to achieve. 302 00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:33.329 They make the introduction to the CSM, the CSM is able to begin to 303 00:21:33.369 --> 00:21:37.970 build a rapport they're able to ask any clarifying questions and the goal of that 304 00:21:38.130 --> 00:21:42.809 handoff call is the sales rep, the customer and the CSM are fully aligned 305 00:21:44.049 --> 00:21:48.319 on everything that's happened up to this point and the customer now knows they're in 306 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:52.559 the hands of the CSM and they'll be going through an onboarding process. The 307 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:55.440 last thing you do want to handoff call is walk through the next steps and 308 00:21:55.559 --> 00:22:00.920 on boarding and actually set up time for the onboarding kickoff meeting. The next 309 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:04.430 thing that I'll say is in the first thirty days, if there is any 310 00:22:04.630 --> 00:22:11.349 issue whatsoever that happens with the customer after you've designed an intentional onboarding experience, 311 00:22:11.390 --> 00:22:18.539 bring the salesperson back in. They can help resolve an issue, they can 312 00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:22.900 help address any mismatched expectations that might have come up in the sales process. 313 00:22:22.940 --> 00:22:26.940 Or, if everything goes smoothly, having the sales rep just check in after 314 00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:32.009 a month and validate that things are in a good place is the right way 315 00:22:32.009 --> 00:22:36.609 to do it. And then after their one month in the the sales rep 316 00:22:36.650 --> 00:22:40.970 doesn't necessarily need to stay involved at that point. Obviously we haven't talked about 317 00:22:40.970 --> 00:22:44.799 sort of the onboarding process, which is another huge, huge piece of that. 318 00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:47.240 But with the handoff, those are the those are the things that I 319 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:49.640 focus on. Yeah, absolutely. I think the biggest thing, just to 320 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:55.799 kind of look ahead at on boarding, that I've heard from customers is letting 321 00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:57.829 them know what's coming next. You know, we kind of have this vision 322 00:22:59.069 --> 00:23:03.670 of eventually gamifying our on boarding process to kind of match with like a candy 323 00:23:03.710 --> 00:23:07.470 land storyboard or or something like that. But you know all the things that 324 00:23:07.829 --> 00:23:11.509 that we're trying to do and the fun ideas. But I love this. 325 00:23:11.630 --> 00:23:15.819 I'm taking notes fast and furious, Meg and when it comes to the handoff, 326 00:23:15.859 --> 00:23:18.980 so make sure there's a conversation if you can set up. You know, 327 00:23:19.019 --> 00:23:25.059 I know the pod structure between sales and account managers and CSM's is somewhat 328 00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:27.569 hotly debated, but I think you point out a something good there, that 329 00:23:29.009 --> 00:23:33.690 that relationship, in that common language between the salesperson and the CSM or account 330 00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:37.329 manager, whatever it is in your organization, there can be some benefit. 331 00:23:37.410 --> 00:23:42.920 They're doing the handoff live and not via email, talking about next steps and 332 00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:48.880 just like I would do as a salesperson, don't leave that call without scheduling 333 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.160 the next call. Always do that. Always be closing in this case. 334 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:56.630 Always be closing for the next step and I think that's just as affable for 335 00:23:56.789 --> 00:24:00.710 CSMS as it is for sales people. And I really like that thirty day 336 00:24:00.750 --> 00:24:03.710 check in, regardless of whether things are going well or not, that they 337 00:24:04.109 --> 00:24:07.349 you know, I had someone recently in one of our customers that says, 338 00:24:07.589 --> 00:24:11.460 and it's just really nice that you reached out after the fact and there wasn't 339 00:24:11.460 --> 00:24:14.900 an issue, but you just, you know, you checked in. I 340 00:24:14.940 --> 00:24:18.019 have my regular check in with my producer and I was just kind of like 341 00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:22.059 I was taken a back at the, you know, emotional response to the 342 00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:26.809 salesperson, the one who promised the Moon, just checking in and like hey, 343 00:24:26.809 --> 00:24:29.930 I still care about you. And I think that the analogy again from 344 00:24:29.930 --> 00:24:33.329 Joey Coleman's book. He talks about the fact that much like a lot of 345 00:24:33.490 --> 00:24:38.079 dating and relationship books focus on how to handle the dating portion of things but 346 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:44.079 nothing about how how to handle the relationship. And in in B tob we 347 00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:47.559 have it's kind of exacerbated, right, because the person that you go through 348 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:51.160 the dating process with now it's like, Oh, I'm time to time to 349 00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:53.470 commit to the relationship and boom, here's a new person, right that I 350 00:24:53.549 --> 00:24:57.150 just got to introduced via email, I've never talked to before. They don't 351 00:24:57.190 --> 00:25:02.630 speak the same language. I really like that idea of always doing the handoff 352 00:25:02.670 --> 00:25:07.099 live and always having a conversation between the salesperson and the CSM. Another thing 353 00:25:07.140 --> 00:25:10.859 that that we've been doing is, you know, a lot of people talk 354 00:25:10.900 --> 00:25:15.099 about using call recording tools like gong or chorus, dot ai I or others 355 00:25:15.140 --> 00:25:19.539 out there for sales called coaching one. I think CSM's should be using a 356 00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:25.529 tool like that for continuous coaching and improvement. But to tools like that can 357 00:25:25.609 --> 00:25:29.490 help bridge the gap where if the salesperson in the CSM only have time for 358 00:25:29.529 --> 00:25:33.849 a five or ten minute brief, the CSM can listen to those recorded sales 359 00:25:33.890 --> 00:25:36.960 calls in that something we do here at sweet fish so that they can like 360 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:40.839 nothing gets lost in a game of telephone, and I think adding that layer 361 00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:44.240 on to what you're talking about here, you can make it very effective but 362 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:48.279 make it efficient at the same time. Anything else on this this point, 363 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.509 as we round up the conversation today, Megan, on either the handoff or 364 00:25:52.509 --> 00:25:56.269 any of the other things that we've talked about when it comes to just good 365 00:25:56.630 --> 00:26:00.269 customer experience and see us alignment with marketing and sales. I love the dating 366 00:26:00.309 --> 00:26:04.980 and relationship analogy that you brought up. I actually will use that as well. 367 00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:10.539 Like anyone can follow a certain amount of steps right an online dating website 368 00:26:10.539 --> 00:26:12.500 and like pretty much get a first date right to get a second date. 369 00:26:12.539 --> 00:26:15.299 It has to be has to be some chemistry. It has to be interesting, 370 00:26:15.380 --> 00:26:18.289 it has to make sense for both sides and once you get in a 371 00:26:18.329 --> 00:26:22.529 relationship all the rules go out the window. You can do everything right and 372 00:26:22.690 --> 00:26:27.450 things could still not work out. It's one of the hardest jobs is to 373 00:26:29.009 --> 00:26:34.480 retain a customer, because it's never all good. Like I don't get rattled 374 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:40.720 by problems or issues because I expect them. Like in any long term relationship, 375 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:42.440 you're going to run into bumps in the road. People are going to 376 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:48.309 get frustrated, someone will get upset, someone will make a mistake, and 377 00:26:48.589 --> 00:26:52.150 so I expect those things to happen and I prepare for them and I just 378 00:26:52.349 --> 00:26:56.829 tackle them head on and I think that customer success is one of the hardest 379 00:26:56.869 --> 00:27:02.980 jobs, in my opinion, because it's easy to hand wave that Oh, 380 00:27:03.140 --> 00:27:06.500 the hardest thing was getting the customer. Keeping them is easy, and I 381 00:27:06.619 --> 00:27:10.460 think it's the opposite. I think retaining a customer is probably one of the 382 00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:15.529 most difficult challenges in any organization. I love your approach there too. They're 383 00:27:15.609 --> 00:27:19.130 going to be bumps in the road and I think a lot of salespeople would 384 00:27:19.289 --> 00:27:23.490 would do themselves and their customer success team a favor saying hey, there could 385 00:27:23.490 --> 00:27:26.690 be some bumps in the road. These maybe would be what they would probably 386 00:27:26.730 --> 00:27:30.519 be. We had this bump in the road with the customer. Here's how 387 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.319 we could maybe avoid that or here's how we're going to handle that if that 388 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:37.079 comes up. And again, a lot of salespeople think that I'm not painting 389 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:41.160 a rosy picture, I'm not doing my job, but by actually giving that 390 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:45.750 air of transparency, then people know we're not. You know, we're not 391 00:27:45.789 --> 00:27:48.869 a five star we they know that they're perfect. If you haven't read the 392 00:27:48.950 --> 00:27:52.670 transparency sale from Todd Capony, go get that on audible or Amazon right now. 393 00:27:52.789 --> 00:27:56.869 So we'll link to Joey Coleman's book and Todd Caponi's book because I think 394 00:27:56.869 --> 00:28:00.859 they are absolutely critical. I'm trying to think of another customer success book but, 395 00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:03.019 as Joey said, there's not that many books out there. So you 396 00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:08.220 should definitely be the following Megan on Linkedin as she talks very passionately about this. 397 00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:11.660 Meg and I love what you're talking about and really the five steps that 398 00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:15.410 you broke down or a good handoff call. I'm going to be taking things 399 00:28:15.450 --> 00:28:19.930 from this conversation back to our team here at sweet fish for maybe anyone in 400 00:28:21.089 --> 00:28:26.289 customer success account management, any sort of post sale roll like that, Megan, 401 00:28:26.490 --> 00:28:29.920 for either someone sitting in that seat or a leader of a team like 402 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:34.920 that. Any parting thoughts on maybe the most critical part of training, and 403 00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:41.000 actually I'll go ahead and throw one out there when it comes to account management, 404 00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:45.789 whether that's conflict resolution or saying no and giving the reason to it, 405 00:28:45.430 --> 00:28:49.430 what's kind of the one thing that maybe you start on with training when it 406 00:28:49.509 --> 00:28:53.230 comes to customer success and account management that you think, man, if we 407 00:28:53.309 --> 00:28:56.539 get this right, I know there are a lot of things we got to 408 00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:57.819 train on, but if we get this, this is kind of the biggest 409 00:28:57.859 --> 00:29:02.980 lever to train my CS team on. Is there something that's always kind of 410 00:29:02.980 --> 00:29:04.779 top of mine for you, for folks, as we as we wrap up 411 00:29:04.819 --> 00:29:11.089 today? Absolutely, I like to think that you can actually train people on 412 00:29:11.210 --> 00:29:17.329 how to develop their emotional intelligence, and I'd like to break down Eq into 413 00:29:18.089 --> 00:29:25.799 communication and empathy, and so I focus on very specific communication tactics. For 414 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.680 example, one of my favorites is called acknowledging. So whenever you're speaking with 415 00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:33.319 a customer and they say a bunch of things, summarize what you've heard that's 416 00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:38.589 active listening. If there's a if you misinterpreted something that they said, you 417 00:29:38.670 --> 00:29:45.190 will uncover that by acknowledging them effectively and people feel heard when you do that. 418 00:29:45.230 --> 00:29:49.230 Additionally, although I do think people are either more empathetic than not, 419 00:29:49.470 --> 00:29:53.059 I do think empathy can be developed as well and I think if you can 420 00:29:53.180 --> 00:30:00.180 really hone your communication skills and your empathy and marry those into having strong Eq 421 00:30:02.339 --> 00:30:06.700 that is the crux of handling just about anything that's going to get thrown at 422 00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:08.930 you and a customer relationship. So that's what I really focus on. That 423 00:30:10.490 --> 00:30:15.849 when it comes to training new team members and or upleveling and existing team that 424 00:30:15.890 --> 00:30:18.730 I might inherit. I love it. Megan. We're probably going to have 425 00:30:18.769 --> 00:30:22.200 to have you on to go deeper on eque training for a customer success folks, 426 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.359 or maybe we go into on boarding. I don't know, but this 427 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:29.839 has been a great conversation. I love what you talked about breaking down the 428 00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:34.400 two things to kind of reorient your sales process for better customer retention and reducing 429 00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:40.069 churn, and then really the five steps, with some sub subpoints in there, 430 00:30:40.150 --> 00:30:44.710 but really a five step process for the for the handoff between sales and 431 00:30:44.910 --> 00:30:48.750 your post sales team, whatever that is within your organization. Megan, if 432 00:30:48.789 --> 00:30:53.579 anybody listening to this is not yet your friend, your linkedin connection and seeing 433 00:30:53.700 --> 00:30:56.140 you regularly, what's the best way for them to reach out, because I 434 00:30:56.180 --> 00:31:00.420 would highly suggest that they get into your network and learn from you, just 435 00:31:00.579 --> 00:31:03.529 like I have, not only today but in in the last few weeks of 436 00:31:03.569 --> 00:31:07.650 getting to know you. Absolutely and very active on Linkedin. It's the only 437 00:31:07.730 --> 00:31:12.210 social media that I'm active on, so come find me on their linkedincom flash 438 00:31:12.289 --> 00:31:17.490 ion, slashmagan white fell in. I try to post pretty regularly on all 439 00:31:17.529 --> 00:31:22.880 things customer success, leadership, personal development, those types of themes and topics. 440 00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:25.359 I love it. Megan, thank you so much for making time to 441 00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:26.599 chat with me today. I really appreciate it. It was great to be 442 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:33.589 here, Logan. Thank you for having hey, everybody, logan with sweet 443 00:31:33.589 --> 00:31:37.069 fish. Year. If you're a regular listener of BB growth, you know 444 00:31:37.190 --> 00:31:41.069 that I'm one of the cohosts of this show, but you may not know 445 00:31:41.269 --> 00:31:44.509 that I also head up the sales team here at sweetfish. So, for 446 00:31:44.630 --> 00:31:47.980 those of you in sales or sales offs, I wanted to take a second 447 00:31:48.019 --> 00:31:52.259 to share something that's made us insanely more efficient. Lately, our team has 448 00:31:52.299 --> 00:31:56.059 been using lead Iq for the past few months and what used to take us 449 00:31:56.140 --> 00:32:00.259 four hours gathering contact data now takes us only one. We're seventy five percent 450 00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:06.690 more efficient. We're able to move faster without bound prospecting and organizing our campaigns 451 00:32:06.890 --> 00:32:10.369 is so much easier than for I'd highly suggest you guys check out lead Iq 452 00:32:10.529 --> 00:32:15.359 as well. You can check them out at lead iqcom. That's Elle a 453 00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:22.839 d iqcom. Is your buyer a BB marketer? If so, you should 454 00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:28.200 think about sponsoring this podcast. BB growth gets downloaded over a hundred and thirty 455 00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:31.269 thousand times each month, and our listeners are marketing decision makers. If it 456 00:32:31.349 --> 00:32:36.349 sounds interesting, Sin Logan and email logan at sweetfish Mediacom.