Why Empathy Is the Most Important Word in Marketing and Sales w/ Douglas Burdett & James Muir

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:00.250 mhm 2 00:00:04.540 --> 00:00:08.510 Hello and welcome to the BDB Growth Show. Monthly book Talk. I'm Douglas 3 00:00:08.510 --> 00:00:11.420 Burnett, host of the marketing book Podcast, where each week I published an 4 00:00:11.420 --> 00:00:14.200 interview with the author of a new marketing or sales book to help Me and 5 00:00:14.200 --> 00:00:18.170 my listeners keep up with the latest ideas in the quickly changing world of 6 00:00:18.180 --> 00:00:22.590 marketing and sales. Joining me is My friend James Muir, author of The 7 00:00:22.590 --> 00:00:28.210 Perfect Close. The Secret to Closing Sales in this monthly episode of the B 8 00:00:28.210 --> 00:00:31.400 two B growth show. We recap some of the key ideas from the marketing and sales 9 00:00:31.400 --> 00:00:35.840 books recently featured on the marketing book Podcast. I read every 10 00:00:35.840 --> 00:00:40.240 book featured on the marketing book Podcast, but James read even more books 11 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:44.440 than I do, and he listens to every episode of the marketing book podcast. 12 00:00:44.440 --> 00:00:51.360 So I am delighted that he can join me. A lot of listeners ask us both for book 13 00:00:51.360 --> 00:00:55.420 recommendations, So if either of us can recommend any marketing or sales books 14 00:00:55.420 --> 00:00:59.660 or other resources for whatever situation you find yourself in or what 15 00:00:59.660 --> 00:01:02.990 you'd like to learn more about, please feel free to connect with us on 16 00:01:02.990 --> 00:01:07.340 LinkedIn, where we can chat and we'll do our best to get you pointed in the 17 00:01:07.340 --> 00:01:12.730 right direction. Now, if you do send us a LinkedIn connection invite, please 18 00:01:12.730 --> 00:01:17.860 include a message so we'll know you're not a some sort of a spammer. James, 19 00:01:17.860 --> 00:01:22.690 welcome back to the B to B Growth Show Book talk. Thank you, Douglas. I do 20 00:01:22.690 --> 00:01:25.580 read every book and listen to every episode because you, my friend, have an 21 00:01:25.580 --> 00:01:30.840 eye for great books. Yes. I'm lucky to get all these authors on the show. Yeah, 22 00:01:30.850 --> 00:01:33.280 well, I'm sure you have a stack there. You have to pick which one you're gonna 23 00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:36.800 use, right? Yeah, Well, word gets out after a while. You start getting all 24 00:01:36.800 --> 00:01:41.670 these books. And what's crazy is that I'm under such pressure and nice 25 00:01:41.670 --> 00:01:45.200 pressure, but a lot of listeners will say, Hey, if it's on your show, I'm 26 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:50.130 much more likely to buy it. I'm like, Oh, no, I heard that. Yeah. I have to 27 00:01:50.130 --> 00:01:53.550 be really careful. Yeah. Was it? Amanda said she listens to your show to get 28 00:01:53.550 --> 00:01:56.500 the first kit out of the book. And then if she likes what she hears on your 29 00:01:56.500 --> 00:01:59.370 show, then she'll go by the book. Yeah, and In fact, one of the books we're 30 00:01:59.370 --> 00:02:05.810 gonna talk about today they sold out of after the episode around is the power 31 00:02:05.820 --> 00:02:09.720 that is the power of the marketing book podcast right there. Yeah, maybe they 32 00:02:09.720 --> 00:02:12.870 just ran out of books, but the publisher said no. I think it had 33 00:02:12.870 --> 00:02:16.010 something to do with that. So it's like the listeners to the show, or, uh, 34 00:02:16.020 --> 00:02:20.590 they're big book buyers. And they often complain to me that, you know, they 35 00:02:20.590 --> 00:02:23.140 don't have a drinking problem. They have a book buying problem because they 36 00:02:23.140 --> 00:02:27.190 start listening to the show and they start buying more books and reading 37 00:02:27.190 --> 00:02:33.350 them too. So sorry. Apologies in advance. Yeah, Chronic on that. All 38 00:02:33.350 --> 00:02:36.370 right. Well, in this episode of book talk, we're gonna talk about the five 39 00:02:36.370 --> 00:02:39.460 most recent books featured on the marketing book Podcast, which are 40 00:02:39.640 --> 00:02:43.370 Friday. Forward. Inspiration and motivation to endure Weeks Stronger 41 00:02:43.370 --> 00:02:48.440 than it started by Robert Blazer. Also the influencer code. How to Unlock the 42 00:02:48.440 --> 00:02:52.670 Power of Influencer Marketing by Amanda Russell. After that, we have ultimate 43 00:02:52.670 --> 00:02:57.240 guide to Facebook Advertising by Perry, Marshall, Thomas, Milos and Bob 44 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:02.390 Rigorous. And our fourth option is the Ministry of Common Sense. How to 45 00:03:02.390 --> 00:03:07.030 eliminate bureaucratic red tape, Bad Excuses and Corporate Bs by Martin 46 00:03:07.030 --> 00:03:11.790 Lindstrom. I love that Title, by the Way, and the Smart marketing book, The 47 00:03:11.790 --> 00:03:16.490 Definitive Guide to Effective Marketing Strategies by Dan White. And so first 48 00:03:16.490 --> 00:03:19.650 up, we've got Friday forward inspiration and motivation to endure 49 00:03:19.650 --> 00:03:23.650 weeks stronger than it started by Robert Glazer. And actually, I am. I 50 00:03:23.650 --> 00:03:27.980 subscribe to his newsletter. You know, I was excited to read this book by the 51 00:03:27.980 --> 00:03:31.000 same name, So tell us a little bit about your interview with Robert. Well, 52 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:37.190 it's a It's a popular newsletter he has, and what he was doing was he has a 53 00:03:37.200 --> 00:03:42.150 marketing agency in Boston, has been very, very successful. And he started 54 00:03:42.150 --> 00:03:49.260 writing sort of an inspirational email to his employees every Friday, and some 55 00:03:49.260 --> 00:03:53.780 of them started getting forwarded to other people and outside the company, 56 00:03:53.790 --> 00:03:57.580 and he started getting more and more positive feedback about these 57 00:03:57.580 --> 00:04:01.670 inspirational emails that he was sending out. And it's interesting. It's 58 00:04:01.670 --> 00:04:05.130 sort of a content marketing story where he started to realize he was building 59 00:04:05.130 --> 00:04:12.430 this audience. And so he, uh, started to over the years, he collected some of 60 00:04:12.430 --> 00:04:18.110 the best ones and ultimately put them into this book, and it's a little bit 61 00:04:18.110 --> 00:04:20.709 of a departure from the normal marketing and sales books that are on 62 00:04:20.709 --> 00:04:24.320 the marketing book podcast but very helpful, very relevant. And I'd 63 00:04:24.320 --> 00:04:28.890 actually interviewed him in a couple years ago about his book on affiliate 64 00:04:28.890 --> 00:04:33.750 marketing. So in the book, he talks about these four capacities, which he's 65 00:04:33.750 --> 00:04:38.730 talked about it in in other books, which are spiritual, intellectual, 66 00:04:38.730 --> 00:04:43.750 physical and emotional, and he groups them in those four areas. And so the 67 00:04:43.750 --> 00:04:47.870 spiritual is not necessarily religious, which a lot of people naturally think 68 00:04:47.870 --> 00:04:53.500 of. But it has to do with determining what's truly important to you, and a 69 00:04:53.500 --> 00:04:56.370 lot of people sort of ignore that or don't really want to come to grips with 70 00:04:56.370 --> 00:05:01.150 it. But he talks about how once you get closer to what is really truly 71 00:05:01.150 --> 00:05:05.500 important in your life and what you want, great things start to happen. You 72 00:05:05.500 --> 00:05:09.750 start getting rid of a lot of self limiting excuses, and, uh, these are 73 00:05:09.750 --> 00:05:15.770 very interesting stories. And then the, uh, the intellectual capacities, uh, 74 00:05:15.780 --> 00:05:20.790 you know, he talks about learning and teaching yourself and keeping your self 75 00:05:20.790 --> 00:05:26.130 fresh and exposing yourself to uh, you know, new ideas. And, uh, you know, 76 00:05:26.130 --> 00:05:28.400 after the interview, I asked him if he could mention the marketing book 77 00:05:28.400 --> 00:05:33.560 podcast in future editions of the book. No, not really. Um, and the physical 78 00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:36.980 meetings, you know, taking care of yourself. He thought he was having a 79 00:05:36.980 --> 00:05:41.370 heart attack one day. It turned out it was, uh, sort of a panic attack, and he 80 00:05:41.370 --> 00:05:44.600 has some sort of magnesium deficiency. But at that point, it was one of these 81 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:48.420 wake up calls that so many people have where they say, All right, I gotta I 82 00:05:48.420 --> 00:05:52.720 really have to make time for my own physical needs. And then the last one 83 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:56.570 he talks about is the, you know, the emotional. And let me just mention a 84 00:05:56.570 --> 00:06:00.170 couple of things. I'm not gonna talk about the physical, but one of the many 85 00:06:00.170 --> 00:06:04.360 things in the book he talks about is that you know, the this notion of how 86 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:11.510 we we really don't regret what we do in life, we regret the things we don't do. 87 00:06:11.520 --> 00:06:16.420 And he has some very interesting stories about that and one of the other 88 00:06:16.420 --> 00:06:19.970 many ideas from the book that it really resonated with me. was this idea of a 89 00:06:19.970 --> 00:06:24.410 deferred life plan? Meaning, you know. Well, one day I'm going to get what I 90 00:06:24.410 --> 00:06:29.080 want, or I'm gonna work real hard and suddenly retire. Or, you know, one day 91 00:06:29.080 --> 00:06:33.760 it's gonna come, and he's just talking about how that's a kind of a false 92 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:39.040 premise. It never happens that way. And, you know, it talks about ways to try to 93 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:43.780 find a little more joy in everyday life. And, you know, the reward is in the 94 00:06:43.780 --> 00:06:50.920 journey. And, um, one thing that really grinds his gears is this idea of the 95 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:56.350 myth of overnight success. He just explains how it does not exist, and he 96 00:06:56.350 --> 00:07:00.220 says, Anytime you find someone who was really successful, there's so much more 97 00:07:00.230 --> 00:07:05.790 behind it. But yet people want to believe in this idea of the overnight 98 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:09.480 success Smith, because I think it can happen to them. It's like thinking, you 99 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:13.020 know, like, you see that somebody might have won the lottery. So you buy a 100 00:07:13.020 --> 00:07:17.350 lottery ticket and you think, Well, somebody did do that. It's just it's, 101 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:20.930 uh, so rare. Last thing I wanted to mention was about the emotional 102 00:07:20.930 --> 00:07:26.060 capacity explains that, uh, common mistake. People make is assuming that 103 00:07:26.440 --> 00:07:30.980 emotional characteristics are a fixed part of our personalities. They're not, 104 00:07:30.990 --> 00:07:36.020 You know, we have greater control over them than a lot of people realize. And 105 00:07:36.020 --> 00:07:41.050 the last thing I wanna mention was this this idea of the energy vampire he 106 00:07:41.050 --> 00:07:46.560 talks about. There are energy vampires in all of our lives out there. And 107 00:07:46.570 --> 00:07:51.130 they're the kind of people that just drain you of your energy, as the name 108 00:07:51.130 --> 00:07:54.610 implies. But people don't always realize that, and they don't prepare 109 00:07:54.610 --> 00:07:59.690 for that. And he talks about, you know how to identify those kind of people 110 00:07:59.690 --> 00:08:02.900 and plan to avoid them. You can't get away from them. And, you know, 111 00:08:02.900 --> 00:08:05.870 certainly for Americans at Thanksgiving, there's always that family member that 112 00:08:05.870 --> 00:08:09.630 just kind of drains you. But he says, you should be more cognizant of that 113 00:08:09.630 --> 00:08:13.660 and try to avoid those kinds of people. No doubt, you know, it kind of fits 114 00:08:13.660 --> 00:08:17.370 along with your deferred life plan. Is his kind of tongue in cheek talk about 115 00:08:17.370 --> 00:08:23.290 hacks, right? The idea of the hacks is there's this shortcut. But the truth is, 116 00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:27.060 the the answer is there is no shortcut. Yes, that was the well, I thought the 117 00:08:27.060 --> 00:08:30.570 funniest part of the book where he talks about all these hacks and he 118 00:08:30.570 --> 00:08:34.289 actually bought it from some other author with full attribution. But he he 119 00:08:34.289 --> 00:08:38.409 talked about how here's how to sell more product. Here's a hack. Okay, Make 120 00:08:38.409 --> 00:08:43.880 a better product. Exactly. There's no such thing as a hack, you know. Is this 121 00:08:43.890 --> 00:08:47.670 again? Yeah, you're right. It's connected to the overnight success, so 122 00:08:47.680 --> 00:08:51.150 totally funny. Well, his one takeaway is what you just said, Which is that 123 00:08:51.150 --> 00:08:53.990 really? You know, it's just the little things that move you forward towards 124 00:08:53.990 --> 00:08:58.060 your goal. So small things done consistently make a big difference. And, 125 00:08:58.070 --> 00:09:01.710 um, that was kind of one of the themes that was in Seth Godin's most recent 126 00:09:01.710 --> 00:09:07.790 book as well. Yes, The practice, you know, Just keep going. Don't stop. Yeah, 127 00:09:07.800 --> 00:09:10.470 well, I thought it was an inspiring book. It covers a wide variety of 128 00:09:10.470 --> 00:09:12.800 topics, all of which I think will improve your life. It only took me 129 00:09:12.800 --> 00:09:16.690 about 90 minutes to read this book, and I I walked away with a ton of new 130 00:09:16.690 --> 00:09:19.570 learnings and ways to think about life. So I really can't imagine anybody not 131 00:09:19.570 --> 00:09:24.070 enjoying this book. So two thumbs up for me. Absolutely. All right. Next up, 132 00:09:24.070 --> 00:09:27.450 we've got the influencer code. How to unlock the power of influencer 133 00:09:27.450 --> 00:09:31.700 marketing by Amanda Russell. And now I I got to admit, I have always been kind 134 00:09:31.700 --> 00:09:34.720 of a skeptical when it comes to influencer marketing. But this book 135 00:09:34.730 --> 00:09:38.120 really turned me around on that. So tell us about your interview with 136 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:43.210 Amanda. Well, and she's quite the influencer. And she's a fitness person 137 00:09:43.210 --> 00:09:47.950 like you, James. She's a really get along. Yeah, and I should also mention 138 00:09:47.950 --> 00:09:54.170 that, uh, she's also a spokesperson for for Lamborghini. And, uh, I'm still 139 00:09:54.170 --> 00:09:58.110 waiting for that Lamborghini to show up at my house. I didn't want to put a lot 140 00:09:58.110 --> 00:10:02.100 of pressure on The reasons are stacking up better. That's right. That's right. 141 00:10:02.100 --> 00:10:05.790 So you make a very good point. Influencer marketing is really 142 00:10:05.790 --> 00:10:11.910 misunderstood. People think of it as, uh, you know, the Paris Hilton's or the 143 00:10:11.920 --> 00:10:16.740 Kardashians Or or just social media advertising. Yeah, social media folks. 144 00:10:16.750 --> 00:10:20.900 And what's, uh, it's a big book, and it's a if you haven't read one on 145 00:10:20.900 --> 00:10:24.360 influencer marketing. This is definitely one to get to, and it was 146 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:29.700 very strategic and really well, explained one of the really important 147 00:10:29.700 --> 00:10:33.590 things to understand about why influencer marketing, if it's done 148 00:10:33.590 --> 00:10:42.260 right, is so powerful is that people generally don't believe advertising. By 149 00:10:42.260 --> 00:10:46.020 and large, they are mistrustful and their mistrustful of what companies are 150 00:10:46.020 --> 00:10:51.970 saying to. They really don't take them at their word, and people don't like 151 00:10:51.970 --> 00:10:55.850 being interrupted by advertising and all that sort of thing. So what they do 152 00:10:55.850 --> 00:11:01.530 trust is other people, and they trust experts, and I'll give you an example 153 00:11:01.530 --> 00:11:06.300 that we talked about in the interview. So I'm a hunter, and I will look at 154 00:11:06.310 --> 00:11:10.300 different hunting equipment or whatever you need from the manufacturers. But I 155 00:11:10.300 --> 00:11:16.080 don't spend much time there. I then follow influencers, you know, like John 156 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:20.620 McAdams, who I I follow, and I see what they write about and what their 157 00:11:20.620 --> 00:11:24.460 experience has been. And trust is really important for the audience is 158 00:11:24.460 --> 00:11:29.360 that these different influencers are building and what you want to do is 159 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:35.600 you determine that the kind of people that they are the audience they're 160 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:38.880 building are the same kind of people that might be interested in your 161 00:11:38.880 --> 00:11:42.100 product. And one of the biggest mistakes that companies make is 162 00:11:42.100 --> 00:11:46.320 thinking that you can, like, buy an ad with an influencer. It's a long I 163 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:50.630 thought it was, Yeah, yeah, well, like getting, uh, Kim Kardashian to tweet 164 00:11:50.630 --> 00:11:53.300 about your something, as some of them do that and it's very visible, but 165 00:11:53.300 --> 00:11:58.140 that's not really how it works, and it doesn't cost that much either. But what 166 00:11:58.140 --> 00:12:02.550 you're doing is you need to reach out to these influencers, and she shows all 167 00:12:02.550 --> 00:12:06.990 of this how to do all of this correctly in the book. Uh, influencer marketing 168 00:12:06.990 --> 00:12:10.360 is most often done wrong. When it's a short term thing, they think they can 169 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:14.590 buy an ad instead. What you're doing is you're trying to see if you could build 170 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:19.930 a long term, mutually beneficial relationship with an influencer, and a 171 00:12:19.930 --> 00:12:22.840 lot of times when you're doing influencer marketing money is not 172 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:28.790 actually being exchanged. So you let's say you have an audience of your 173 00:12:28.790 --> 00:12:34.010 company. You, uh, influencers might want to work with you because you can 174 00:12:34.020 --> 00:12:39.760 introduce them to your audience or, you know, or vice versa. And one of the 175 00:12:39.760 --> 00:12:44.750 great things about influencer marketing is that people trust the influencers 176 00:12:44.750 --> 00:12:48.900 because the you know the trust can evaporate very quickly, but also, they 177 00:12:48.900 --> 00:12:53.630 can help create a lot of content for you. And a lot of companies are 178 00:12:53.630 --> 00:12:58.240 struggling because we can't produce enough content. Well, a an influencer 179 00:12:58.250 --> 00:13:01.750 is they know how to create content they're very good at. That's how they 180 00:13:01.750 --> 00:13:05.360 became influencers by creating a variety of different types of content 181 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:11.360 videos, blog posts, books, uh, you know, podcast all that, that type of thing. 182 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:16.590 So what was interesting? Also in the book is that she talks about the 183 00:13:16.590 --> 00:13:21.350 importance of goals and objectives, and she took the time to explain. You know 184 00:13:21.350 --> 00:13:25.890 what? What? The differences And, um, why you should take a more measured 185 00:13:25.900 --> 00:13:32.040 approach to these things. And, you know, she even has this this code and she 186 00:13:32.050 --> 00:13:36.720 talks about the measurement. And like, the code is when you're doing 187 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:40.140 influencer marketing, always start with the end in mind. What is it you're 188 00:13:40.140 --> 00:13:43.520 trying to accomplish? If you're just trying to get some famous person to 189 00:13:43.530 --> 00:13:48.530 retweet a tweet once you really you don't understand. You're wasting your 190 00:13:48.530 --> 00:13:55.070 time, and then you need to spend time observing and and identifying who the 191 00:13:55.070 --> 00:13:59.560 right kind of folks are. That might be able to help build trust with the 192 00:13:59.570 --> 00:14:03.810 customers you're trying to reach. And then, you know, you take a long term 193 00:14:03.810 --> 00:14:07.280 approach of your building and you're maintaining connections. And, uh, 194 00:14:07.290 --> 00:14:11.240 there's quite a bit in the book about how to measure, uh, you know, the 195 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:15.160 effectiveness of this. So you also have to be careful and she talks about this, 196 00:14:15.170 --> 00:14:19.300 uh, spotting fake influencers. There's a lot of Charlton's. There are lot of 197 00:14:19.300 --> 00:14:23.110 Charlton's out there. And as I've seen in some other books about influencer 198 00:14:23.110 --> 00:14:30.120 marketing, she talks about how or she writes about how your own employees can 199 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:34.540 be some of the greatest influencers. And I would think that before you try 200 00:14:34.540 --> 00:14:39.290 to reach out to some influencer, start with your own employees. Go internal 201 00:14:39.290 --> 00:14:42.870 first. Yeah, and you know, most employees have much greater social 202 00:14:42.870 --> 00:14:47.240 media reach than than the company does. I've heard it said that it's like the 203 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:51.680 average employee has 10 times the reach of a like a company Social media 204 00:14:51.680 --> 00:14:56.540 presence. Yeah, so there's your own employees. Could be, you know, they're 205 00:14:56.540 --> 00:15:01.240 already experts, you know, and they're very knowledgeable, and also there's 206 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:07.390 also your customers are a great place to build uh, advocates and influencers, 207 00:15:07.390 --> 00:15:15.630 for instance, James Muir. I am a brand ambassador for Maker's Mark bourbon. Oh, 208 00:15:15.640 --> 00:15:19.360 you didn't know that. It's not on my LinkedIn profile, but it will be. Yeah. 209 00:15:19.370 --> 00:15:22.980 Somehow they figured out that there was a lot of it being sold near my liquor 210 00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:27.240 store, and they guess they zeroed in and said, Thank you. Can we send you 211 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.790 stuff and get you to share it with others? And now here I am, talking 212 00:15:29.790 --> 00:15:35.960 about it. Wow, that is working out Well, you know, one thing that she mentioned 213 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:39.330 on the interview and that's in the book that I really liked, is we. We've done 214 00:15:39.330 --> 00:15:42.800 quite a few books on attention, like the attention, economy and all this 215 00:15:42.800 --> 00:15:47.900 kind of stuff. And, um, attention without influence is just noise. I'm 216 00:15:47.900 --> 00:15:51.170 like, man, I gotta I gotta write that down When I heard that attention 217 00:15:51.170 --> 00:15:55.810 without influence is just noise. Yeah, there were so many hallelujah moments 218 00:15:55.810 --> 00:15:59.080 when I was reading the book because it made so much sense and I wish more 219 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:02.320 people understand. That's one of them. Where people think it's all about 220 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:07.270 attention. It's like, No, no, it's not about attention, necessarily. It's not 221 00:16:07.270 --> 00:16:12.420 about attention in and of itself. That is just one small part of it. There's 222 00:16:12.420 --> 00:16:14.880 gems like this all over it, right? Like she says, you can't claim to be a 223 00:16:14.880 --> 00:16:19.020 marketer unless you're tying what you're doing back to revenue. Oh, my 224 00:16:19.020 --> 00:16:23.870 gosh, that's that is a There's a whole book in that sentence right there. Yeah, 225 00:16:23.880 --> 00:16:27.410 and I'm quoting it already because she was explaining that. You know, if 226 00:16:27.410 --> 00:16:31.880 you're a marketer and you're not tying back what you're doing to revenue, what 227 00:16:31.880 --> 00:16:35.290 are you doing? You know, And yet there's so many that don't even and, 228 00:16:35.300 --> 00:16:40.310 you know, it's maybe it's hard to do. But the great marketers without being 229 00:16:40.310 --> 00:16:47.060 told to do this are the ones that are figuring out on their own a lot of the 230 00:16:47.070 --> 00:16:50.610 financial aspects of what they're doing and how what they're doing is tied back 231 00:16:50.610 --> 00:16:54.650 to that. Yeah, well, like I said at the beginning, I've been a skeptic. When it 232 00:16:54.650 --> 00:16:57.980 comes to influencer marketing. This book really turned me around, and I see 233 00:16:57.980 --> 00:17:01.940 now after having read it that I've been influenced this way a lot of times. 234 00:17:01.950 --> 00:17:06.160 Alright. Crazy thing is, I didn't even realize it because It feels so, so 235 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:10.319 natural. So I really think this is, like critical reading for any business 236 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:14.010 owner. A marketer who would want to consider using influencer marketing. 237 00:17:14.020 --> 00:17:18.460 Yeah, and it doesn't cost a lot of money. And if you read this, you think, 238 00:17:18.470 --> 00:17:23.810 Oh, this isn't a, you know, some sort of absurd thing. It's It's very, very 239 00:17:23.810 --> 00:17:27.930 effective. And your customers like it. They trust it. You obviously, you have 240 00:17:27.930 --> 00:17:33.290 to have a good product. And these people, it's it's not. It's not 241 00:17:33.290 --> 00:17:36.970 necessarily about writing. Stroking a big check to some famous person getting 242 00:17:36.970 --> 00:17:41.930 them to shill for you. That's really pretty rare. Yeah. Yeah, that was the 243 00:17:41.930 --> 00:17:45.490 eye opener for me. All right, well, the two thumbs up from me on that book, 244 00:17:45.490 --> 00:17:49.130 that was a great I opened up a book. Um, next up, we've got Ultimate guide to 245 00:17:49.130 --> 00:17:53.330 Facebook advertising by three authors Perry, Marshall, Thomas, Milos and Bob. 246 00:17:53.330 --> 00:17:57.640 Rigorous. And, um, I read the previous edition of this book. Actually, you did? 247 00:17:57.650 --> 00:18:01.770 Yeah. And so this book, by the way, is a major rewrite of that. I mean, uh, 248 00:18:01.780 --> 00:18:05.090 and it's pure goal if you do any kind of Facebook advertising, so tell us a 249 00:18:05.090 --> 00:18:10.900 little bit about your your interview with Bob. Today's episode is sponsored 250 00:18:10.900 --> 00:18:15.870 by LinkedIn. Did you know over 62 million decision makers are on LinkedIn? 251 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:20.100 It's the reason why I and a ton of other B two B marketers spend hours 252 00:18:20.110 --> 00:18:24.650 marketing on LinkedIn every week. In fact, recently I just pulled a report 253 00:18:24.650 --> 00:18:28.990 that informed our team had sweet fish that Lincoln had produced three times 254 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:33.060 the amount of new customers in the last 90 days. Then the next lead source, 255 00:18:33.070 --> 00:18:38.300 three times. Guys. It was a lot. There is not a better platform to research 256 00:18:38.310 --> 00:18:42.170 your key accounts. Find the exact people you want to connect with and 257 00:18:42.180 --> 00:18:47.640 actually engage them in a variety of meaningful ways. Do business where 258 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:52.180 business is done. Get a $100 advertising credit toward your first 259 00:18:52.180 --> 00:18:57.870 Lincoln campaign. Visit linkedin dot com slash GDP growth, linkedin dot com 260 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:04.800 slash btb Growth terms and conditions apply. Well, it's a terrific book, and 261 00:19:04.800 --> 00:19:08.970 I think it's, I think, he said. 90% of it was redone, so it didn't read like 262 00:19:08.970 --> 00:19:12.240 the other one at all. Really? Yeah, they've added way more video stuff a 263 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.110 lot. I mean, there's just It's just almost like a whole new book. Yeah, 264 00:19:15.120 --> 00:19:19.980 well, and that's natural. The platform is changing, but the thing I'm not a 265 00:19:19.990 --> 00:19:24.230 Facebook advertiser, you know, we don't do that for clients, and that's just 266 00:19:24.230 --> 00:19:31.620 not something that is our wheel wheel house. But every single thing we talked 267 00:19:31.620 --> 00:19:35.890 about in this interview applies to really effective marketing, whether 268 00:19:35.890 --> 00:19:40.450 your Facebook advertisers or not. And so much of the book would actually make 269 00:19:40.450 --> 00:19:45.050 you a better market. Or even if you don't spend a dime 101 100% agree. I 270 00:19:45.050 --> 00:19:47.790 mean, like, not only was it teaching you how to use Facebook, but it was 271 00:19:47.790 --> 00:19:51.840 teaching you how to be successful at marketing and and principles and story 272 00:19:51.840 --> 00:19:54.970 writing and all these different things that would apply regardless of whether 273 00:19:54.970 --> 00:19:58.780 you're using Facebook or not. And I would think it would make you better as 274 00:19:58.780 --> 00:20:04.160 a salesperson. I agree getting you back in touch because there's a There was a 275 00:20:04.170 --> 00:20:09.400 titan of 20th century advertising, David Ogilvy, and he wrote a number of 276 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:16.360 great books, and he really was a student of the direct marketing people, 277 00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:21.100 the science behind it, and because he so admired them and followed everything 278 00:20:21.100 --> 00:20:24.850 they did, and he did a lot of research. These advertising was so much better. 279 00:20:24.850 --> 00:20:31.190 And I argue that modern day marketers who study what the really successful 280 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:35.210 Facebook advertisers are doing are going to be more successful marketers. 281 00:20:35.210 --> 00:20:39.540 So sure, you know 20% of the book. Maybe they're showing you OK, click on 282 00:20:39.540 --> 00:20:43.820 this button click on that button, but that's not most of it. Most of it is 283 00:20:43.820 --> 00:20:49.720 about really understanding the motivations of your customers. And, uh, 284 00:20:49.730 --> 00:20:54.570 he talks about how you know, video works well, and he talks about us, 285 00:20:54.580 --> 00:20:56.060 creep out some people. But 286 00:20:57.140 --> 00:21:01.740 if you've ever gone to a website and then maybe later and didn't buy 287 00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:05.240 anything, but you were just browsing or whatever and you then start seeing more 288 00:21:05.250 --> 00:21:10.890 ads on Facebook for that product, it's not a mistake. There's a tracking pixel 289 00:21:10.900 --> 00:21:15.760 that is, you've been retargeted. Yes, you've been retargeted, and it was It 290 00:21:15.760 --> 00:21:19.580 was a guy. I knew about it. I just It was it was really, really fascinating. 291 00:21:19.580 --> 00:21:23.140 You can build lists on that, and you know what? The um you can put that 292 00:21:23.150 --> 00:21:26.850 pixel, that facebook pixel on your website and you know what it costs 293 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:31.340 nothing. It's free because they want you to put the add on, right? Yeah, 294 00:21:31.350 --> 00:21:34.660 well, they run the ad against the people. You've pixels right, and you 295 00:21:34.660 --> 00:21:38.610 can start to retarget people that have been on your website up to six months 296 00:21:38.610 --> 00:21:41.740 ago. That's maybe not the best way to do it. But you want to get the ones 297 00:21:41.740 --> 00:21:44.850 that have been on there more recently and maybe been on there more frequently 298 00:21:44.850 --> 00:21:49.130 and maybe the ones that have been already buying from you. Another thing 299 00:21:49.130 --> 00:21:54.520 that they talk about is how, when you are doing Facebook advertising, you 300 00:21:54.520 --> 00:22:00.810 really want to focus on your customers first, which is one of the most 301 00:22:00.820 --> 00:22:03.850 misunderstood things about marketing. You know, so much of marketing efforts 302 00:22:03.850 --> 00:22:08.370 are about getting new customers when really the smart, the shrewd companies 303 00:22:08.380 --> 00:22:12.360 are really the ones that are focusing on their current customers first. And 304 00:22:12.360 --> 00:22:16.040 Facebook has this amazing capability. Uh, if you have maybe 1000 or so 305 00:22:16.040 --> 00:22:19.150 customers that you can supply to them, they know their customers so well, they 306 00:22:19.150 --> 00:22:22.380 can create a lookalike audience that looks just like your customer base, 307 00:22:22.390 --> 00:22:26.390 that you can get your ads in front of So he's a big he's he was. Bob was a 308 00:22:26.390 --> 00:22:32.850 big fan of of retargeting and creating a lookalike. Audiences, Yes, yes, and I 309 00:22:32.850 --> 00:22:36.680 was talking in the interview. I talked to him about how I've actually bought 310 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:42.270 things that I've seen advertised on Facebook, and it was a great experience, 311 00:22:42.270 --> 00:22:45.870 and it's almost It was really, really well done. And after reading the book, 312 00:22:45.870 --> 00:22:51.170 I understood better what these Facebook advertisers are doing. But it was a 313 00:22:51.170 --> 00:22:54.440 nice experience. It was interesting because it was like something I really 314 00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:58.030 needed or something I could have definitely used. It was tied in with my 315 00:22:58.030 --> 00:23:02.930 interests or or, you know, a gift I wanted to give to someone, and it was 316 00:23:02.930 --> 00:23:07.700 so fascinating. But it was also another thing that's really important in the 317 00:23:07.700 --> 00:23:12.550 book is he talks about the various stages, uh, the buyer journey. Okay, so 318 00:23:12.550 --> 00:23:16.130 we all talk about that, but a lot of companies really just focused on the 319 00:23:16.130 --> 00:23:23.470 people that want to buy right now. But he has this, uh, explanation of the 320 00:23:23.470 --> 00:23:28.740 different types of content you need for the different steps of the buyer 321 00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:33.010 journey, which, of course, that applies to any company not just Facebook 322 00:23:33.010 --> 00:23:39.290 advertisers. And, uh, he talks about how video is one of the most effective 323 00:23:39.300 --> 00:23:43.450 means of advertising on Facebook, and one of the other things it was such an 324 00:23:43.450 --> 00:23:48.640 eye opener for me was his agency. They've done they clearly do over a 325 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.890 million dollars on Facebook advertising every year. And so at one point, he was 326 00:23:51.890 --> 00:23:57.210 at a meeting of Facebook, you know, agencies and, uh, Facebook was saying, 327 00:23:57.210 --> 00:24:02.230 Look, there are some things that work really well for Facebook. Averaging one 328 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:09.080 is how to, you know, target people. And one is how to bid on the, you know, on 329 00:24:09.080 --> 00:24:16.830 the ads. And the third one is about the creativity. And Facebook said, Look, we 330 00:24:16.830 --> 00:24:22.240 know how to target really, really well, just let us handle that for you, and 331 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:26.310 it's true, and we know how. Just use our bidding system. It's going to work 332 00:24:26.310 --> 00:24:30.940 well for you, but we have We cannot do the creative part. And he said that was 333 00:24:30.940 --> 00:24:34.760 an eye opener for him, where he realized we don't need to be focusing 334 00:24:34.760 --> 00:24:38.150 in these first two things. We really need to be focusing on the creative, 335 00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:44.950 and that's where the he said as a Facebook advertising expert. He spends 336 00:24:44.950 --> 00:24:50.420 more time working with clients to sort of hash out what their story is their 337 00:24:50.430 --> 00:24:55.300 their consumer story is than anything else. Now isn't that interesting that 338 00:24:55.300 --> 00:24:59.910 it's all about the creativity? Agreed. And, uh, that story chapter is worth 339 00:24:59.910 --> 00:25:03.430 the whole price of the book that they have. It's really phenomenal. But yeah, 340 00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:05.270 I thought that was in the interview. That was like one of the biggest 341 00:25:05.270 --> 00:25:08.110 takeaways in your interview with him. As he said, of all the things you can 342 00:25:08.110 --> 00:25:12.860 control, the creative component is the most important part because Facebook 343 00:25:12.870 --> 00:25:16.380 Facebook's algorithms can handle the rest of it for you. But only you can do 344 00:25:16.380 --> 00:25:20.930 the creative part. Yeah, and it was also some other great reminders. There 345 00:25:20.930 --> 00:25:27.410 was a chapter on funnels all the time. Yeah, and And he you know, they take 346 00:25:27.410 --> 00:25:30.360 you through it, and I realized they talked about the ones that worked 347 00:25:30.360 --> 00:25:33.820 really well. Like the lead magnet funnel, you know, give generate, uh, an 348 00:25:33.820 --> 00:25:38.610 email. And you get this information Another great one. And I'm you know, I 349 00:25:38.610 --> 00:25:42.980 I get caught by all these like a mini course. They offer up a mini course 350 00:25:42.980 --> 00:25:47.210 that you can do. And then there's another one. Is the free shipping, 351 00:25:47.220 --> 00:25:52.080 which works really well for authors like James Muir and others are that 352 00:25:52.080 --> 00:25:55.740 worked really well on Facebook. But not just Facebook are like the assessment 353 00:25:55.740 --> 00:26:02.340 or the quiz funnel. And there's a There's the on demand webinar thing, 354 00:26:02.340 --> 00:26:06.530 which a lot of B two B folks do. And there's also the challenge funnel. I've 355 00:26:06.530 --> 00:26:11.130 taken like Ryan Holiday's stoic challenge thing where you you see, 356 00:26:11.130 --> 00:26:14.240 there's a lot at the beginning of the new Year where you're you're offering 357 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:18.370 up this, uh, you know, short period of time where people are super engaged and 358 00:26:18.370 --> 00:26:22.380 they're gonna help themselves. But they also get engaged with you and your 359 00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:27.120 business or your brand. Yeah, they get to get to experience a win during the 360 00:26:27.120 --> 00:26:30.500 challenge, period, right? So it's the five day whatever challenge or the, you 361 00:26:30.500 --> 00:26:33.570 know, the 14 day X challenge or whatever, but by the end of that time, 362 00:26:33.570 --> 00:26:35.990 they've accomplished something, and that kind of engenders them to you. 363 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:40.990 Yeah, I think smart marketers will read this, whether they're gonna be Facebook 364 00:26:40.990 --> 00:26:45.350 advertisers or not, because it's such a reminder of what works really well and 365 00:26:45.740 --> 00:26:51.590 Facebook. That's the real world, you know. That's where it's all happening. 366 00:26:51.590 --> 00:26:55.390 And it's, uh, you talk to the book about how Google is afraid of Facebook. 367 00:26:55.390 --> 00:26:59.400 And, you know, one of the things he mentioned was that, you know, Google is 368 00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:05.420 great on, like search intent, where you are able to bring up ads based on what 369 00:27:05.420 --> 00:27:09.790 people are searching for. But the advertising is a whole another. It's a 370 00:27:09.790 --> 00:27:13.390 completely different game. You know, your people are going there to relax 371 00:27:13.390 --> 00:27:17.080 and find out about their friends and just and just be entertained. It's a 372 00:27:17.080 --> 00:27:21.360 completely different animal. Yeah, well, they also said at the beginning, Hey, 373 00:27:21.370 --> 00:27:25.320 we're not saying yes or no to Facebook. That's the world we're in. Yeah, that 374 00:27:25.320 --> 00:27:28.280 was such a you might not like. You might not like social media, right? 375 00:27:28.280 --> 00:27:31.490 There's a lot of, you know, controversy around, whether it's good or bad or 376 00:27:31.490 --> 00:27:34.950 whatever. But, you know, he basically says, Forget that this is the world 377 00:27:34.950 --> 00:27:38.840 we're in. Yeah, he said, Well, you know, you have a job, and that's to help grow 378 00:27:38.840 --> 00:27:43.450 your business there, you know? They said, Well, we didn't feel good about 379 00:27:43.450 --> 00:27:47.060 when people were spending five hours a day watching television. We don't feel 380 00:27:47.060 --> 00:27:50.380 any better that people are on Facebook five hours a day or whatever the number 381 00:27:50.380 --> 00:27:55.170 is, but they're there and there's an opportunity to get their attention, 382 00:27:55.540 --> 00:27:59.570 help them and sell them. Your product. Yeah, so if you haven't, I would 383 00:27:59.570 --> 00:28:02.150 recommend. I mean, if you haven't tried Facebook advertising is I would 384 00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:05.720 recommend this. And this is a perfect book to get yourself exposed to 385 00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:09.310 essentially all the fundamentals and tie those fundamentals back to basic 386 00:28:09.310 --> 00:28:13.050 marketing principles and know how to make your stories and all that. So I 387 00:28:13.050 --> 00:28:16.010 think in that sense, this book really over delivers because it's giving you 388 00:28:16.010 --> 00:28:19.690 the how to with Facebook. But it's also giving you the concepts that are 389 00:28:19.690 --> 00:28:22.460 important from a marketing perspective. There's he's tying the whole thing 390 00:28:22.460 --> 00:28:27.780 together Very well done. Yep, Agreed. Alright, well, next up, we've got the 391 00:28:27.780 --> 00:28:31.590 Ministry of Common Sense. How to eliminate bureaucratic red tape, Bad 392 00:28:31.590 --> 00:28:35.780 excuses and Corporate Bs by Martin Lindstrom. I can't lie. I love the 393 00:28:35.780 --> 00:28:39.700 title of this book, and this book is hilarious. I mean, it's this guide to 394 00:28:39.700 --> 00:28:42.710 ridding ourselves of the bureaucratic bottlenecks that hold all these 395 00:28:42.710 --> 00:28:46.770 companies back. And so to me it was like reading Elon Musk makes Dilbert 396 00:28:46.780 --> 00:28:50.470 right, And I thought, Oh, this is gonna be a perfect book for Douglas Burnett, 397 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:53.890 right? But as I was reading this, I thought, I bet he's loving this book. I 398 00:28:53.890 --> 00:28:57.910 was laughing about your interview with Martin, laughing out loud at this book, 399 00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:01.930 and it was actually gonna be published in 2020. But in the pandemic happened 400 00:29:01.930 --> 00:29:05.830 and they said, Oh, let's let's let's hold off on that But it's a very funny 401 00:29:05.830 --> 00:29:10.950 book. And he's, uh, world famous marketer, One of the top thinkers. He's 402 00:29:10.950 --> 00:29:16.370 one of Time magazine's most influential people, but he's also very, very funny. 403 00:29:16.380 --> 00:29:22.790 And he talks about how we all know that the experience that your customers have 404 00:29:22.790 --> 00:29:27.960 with a company is really your most important marketing. And that's the 405 00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:30.850 biggest determinant of whether you're gonna stay a customer or not, or 406 00:29:30.850 --> 00:29:33.860 whether you gonna tell other people about you know how good or bad your 407 00:29:33.860 --> 00:29:40.940 experience was. He explains that the lack of common sense is ruining the 408 00:29:40.940 --> 00:29:44.590 customer experience for so many customers out there. Think about 409 00:29:44.600 --> 00:29:47.740 airlines, think about anything can think about the bike shop. That 410 00:29:47.740 --> 00:29:53.030 infuriated me recently. Uh, and I left a review for him, but but it was just 411 00:29:53.030 --> 00:29:59.480 stupidity. So he talks about how there are certain things in the corporate 412 00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:04.900 world, the business world that are creating this, you know, lack of common 413 00:30:04.900 --> 00:30:09.350 sense. So which which leads to bad customer experience. And he talks about 414 00:30:09.350 --> 00:30:12.740 like one of them is politics, politics inside a business, and it could be a 415 00:30:12.740 --> 00:30:17.400 very small business. But he shows you how to determine if politics are 416 00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:21.530 starting to tear your customers' experience apart. Technology actually 417 00:30:21.530 --> 00:30:26.110 makes it worse. Uh, there's another thing that somehow, surgically removes 418 00:30:26.110 --> 00:30:30.680 common sense from companies. He talks about meetings and you know, he really 419 00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:34.880 hates Power Point slides. He doesn't doesn't allow those also like a rules 420 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:40.050 and regulations and policies, man and and even compliance, you know, are the 421 00:30:40.050 --> 00:30:46.760 legal, the legal people and what all that does. It's removing a lot of 422 00:30:46.770 --> 00:30:52.100 empathy and, you know, empathy, I often argue, is really the most important 423 00:30:52.100 --> 00:30:56.110 word in marketing and sales, and it's not sympathy or compassion or pity. 424 00:30:56.110 --> 00:31:00.050 It's just putting yourself in the other person's shoes, and he shows exam good 425 00:31:00.050 --> 00:31:06.150 and bad examples of how this is, uh, just ruining it for companies where 426 00:31:06.150 --> 00:31:10.050 they're shooting themselves in the foot. So he's worked with a lot of these 427 00:31:10.050 --> 00:31:15.060 companies, and what he's done is when he gets a company that is seriously 428 00:31:15.060 --> 00:31:19.670 committed to change. And one way he knows that a company is serious about 429 00:31:20.140 --> 00:31:24.240 change is they're willing to talk to their customers, which for me was kind 430 00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.470 of frightening. But there are so many companies that aren't willing to sit 431 00:31:27.470 --> 00:31:33.820 down and just listen to their customers. Believe it. I know it's just amazing, 432 00:31:33.830 --> 00:31:37.590 and, you know, it's different from a sales person who's just all talk and 433 00:31:37.590 --> 00:31:42.700 not listening or asking any questions. But what he's done with a number of 434 00:31:42.700 --> 00:31:46.250 these companies is they then agree. Well, let's set up a ministry of common 435 00:31:46.250 --> 00:31:52.150 sense within our own business here, and so this group of people will then and 436 00:31:52.150 --> 00:31:55.880 employees will contribute to it. Saying like this doesn't make sense. There's 437 00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:59.420 there's no common sense here, And so when you have an environment like that 438 00:31:59.420 --> 00:32:01.490 where people are saying, well, this doesn't make sense for the customer. 439 00:32:01.490 --> 00:32:05.800 This doesn't make sense for the customer. Great things start to happen, 440 00:32:05.810 --> 00:32:10.460 But I've got to tell you the funniest thing, the most ingenious thing he does. 441 00:32:10.470 --> 00:32:14.020 And I didn't realize this until I was interviewing him. As I said, You know 442 00:32:14.020 --> 00:32:19.180 this book, I want to send it anonymously to some companies that I've 443 00:32:19.180 --> 00:32:23.520 dealt with in the past and he said, You don't know about the offer And I said, 444 00:32:23.520 --> 00:32:27.700 No, I I guess I'm not a good host. I didn't do all my homework. He said, If 445 00:32:27.700 --> 00:32:33.170 you what was If you buy the book, you buy two books, we will send one 446 00:32:33.170 --> 00:32:39.670 anonymously to the CEO of your company. Yeah, I heard him say that. Brilliant. 447 00:32:40.040 --> 00:32:43.840 Oh, I've done the same thing where I package it up didn't put any signature 448 00:32:43.840 --> 00:32:47.610 on it. And, you know, you can imagine the executive thinking who sent me this, 449 00:32:47.620 --> 00:32:53.550 who thinks I need this? It's already a bestseller. I can't hear if it was Wall 450 00:32:53.550 --> 00:32:57.050 Street Journal, New York Times. But it's already a bestseller, and I'm not 451 00:32:57.050 --> 00:33:01.860 surprised. It is entertaining, and it has a lot of really I highlighted this 452 00:33:01.860 --> 00:33:05.100 book because it's got a lot of really valuable quotes. I mean, take all the 453 00:33:05.100 --> 00:33:08.660 humor outside. I mean, he's got you know, for example, the best customer 454 00:33:08.660 --> 00:33:12.910 service is when you can help someone in need and just understanding the context 455 00:33:12.910 --> 00:33:16.770 of that one sentence is absolutely huge, especially for anybody in the service 456 00:33:16.770 --> 00:33:20.890 industry, right? Or what you were talking about. Silo is, um right. And 457 00:33:20.900 --> 00:33:25.310 the politics breeds lack of empathy and misunderstanding of customers. It leads 458 00:33:25.310 --> 00:33:29.350 to just not, you know, ignoring customers. Basically. I mean, this book 459 00:33:29.350 --> 00:33:33.420 is just oozing with that stuff, and it's funny. I just, uh you know this 460 00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:36.780 book 10 out of 10 for me. I thought that was great. I loved it. I loved it. 461 00:33:36.790 --> 00:33:40.430 Yeah. Terrific. Here's one takeaway. As you mentioned the very beginning. Stop 462 00:33:40.430 --> 00:33:44.950 using power point. He just thinks they're useless, right? With your first 463 00:33:44.950 --> 00:33:49.550 slide of 267 slide power point starts with. Welcome to our Christmas Party 464 00:33:49.550 --> 00:33:54.820 committee. He's like, all right, right? It reminded me of the show. The 465 00:33:54.830 --> 00:33:57.950 American version of the office where they had the party planning committee. 466 00:33:58.040 --> 00:34:02.530 Right. Oh, my gosh. This book would make Monty Python lap. It's a great 467 00:34:02.530 --> 00:34:06.150 book, Really. I absolutely loved it. Highly recommended. Alright. Well, last 468 00:34:06.150 --> 00:34:10.050 up. We've got the smart marketing book, The Definitive Guide to Effective 469 00:34:10.050 --> 00:34:14.270 Marketing Strategies by Dan White, and this book is smart. I mean, it's smart 470 00:34:14.270 --> 00:34:18.960 on design is smart on content. It's a beautiful book, so tell us a little bit 471 00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:23.739 about your interview with Dan. Well, there are a handful of books based on 472 00:34:23.739 --> 00:34:27.530 all the ones I've read that really makes sense to have on your desk as a 473 00:34:27.530 --> 00:34:30.760 marketer, and this is one of them. Now. Not all books need to be on your desk 474 00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:34.800 necessarily. But this is one that you could really use almost every day and 475 00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:39.540 look at. And and, as he said in the interview, it helps a lot of marketers 476 00:34:39.550 --> 00:34:44.000 identify their blind spots. So marketing is always changing and what 477 00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.739 we say, what we mean by that is the reason marketing sales of changes, 478 00:34:47.739 --> 00:34:50.960 because the way people can buy has changed. But there's a lot of 479 00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:55.739 technology and different ways, and people get really overwhelmed with 480 00:34:55.750 --> 00:34:59.520 marketing, you know, particularly tactics and all the shiny disco balls 481 00:34:59.520 --> 00:35:02.870 and all the you know, tiktok and, you know, whatever the whatever the latest 482 00:35:02.870 --> 00:35:08.430 thing is, this book is terrific because it grounds you in. Okay, let's focus on 483 00:35:08.430 --> 00:35:13.790 strategy. And if your strategy is right, your tactics not only do they reveal 484 00:35:13.790 --> 00:35:17.800 themselves, but they actually work better. So some of this was, you know, 485 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:21.810 goes back in time just to remind folks about the different types of of 486 00:35:21.810 --> 00:35:25.500 marketing strategies. And, um, just to pick on one. At the beginning of the 487 00:35:25.500 --> 00:35:30.150 book, he talks about the ants off matrix, which is, uh, you know, a tried 488 00:35:30.150 --> 00:35:36.770 and tested model for how businesses grow. And, you know, there's, you know, 489 00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:39.920 it's kind of obvious, but, like, you know, sell more to your current 490 00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:44.060 customers, which there is a real blind spot for a lot of companies. They don't 491 00:35:44.060 --> 00:35:47.870 sell enough to their current customers or sell, sell existing products to new 492 00:35:47.870 --> 00:35:51.730 customers or sell new products to new customers. All these different 493 00:35:51.740 --> 00:35:55.430 variations and they have various degrees of difficulty and risk and 494 00:35:55.430 --> 00:35:59.320 reward and all that. The reason I like that is because I know that there are a 495 00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:02.420 lot of marketers and salespeople who are sitting there at the conference 496 00:36:02.420 --> 00:36:07.980 table, and the CEO is banging his or her fist on the table, saying, We gotta 497 00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:14.460 grow. We gotta go make more calls. I'm sure you're You've had situations where 498 00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:18.510 somebody just just work the phones, you know, or run more ads, and it's 499 00:36:18.510 --> 00:36:22.210 actually no. There's actually some strategy behind what we're trying to do 500 00:36:22.210 --> 00:36:26.650 here. And, you know, there's a lot of strategy missing in businesses, and I 501 00:36:26.650 --> 00:36:29.840 think this is a great opportunity for marketers or sales people to read this 502 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:33.760 book and maybe kind of sneak some strategy in, and they will look at you 503 00:36:33.770 --> 00:36:37.500 very differently. They'll think, Wow, this is a You know, I like the cut of 504 00:36:37.500 --> 00:36:40.720 their jib. They're they're really thinking from a business standpoint, a 505 00:36:40.720 --> 00:36:43.610 couple of the things that were that were in the book that just again warmed 506 00:36:43.610 --> 00:36:47.300 the cockles of my heart like we talked about with Amanda Russell's book is he 507 00:36:47.300 --> 00:36:51.680 talks about the importance of marketers being able to speak finance and 508 00:36:51.680 --> 00:36:55.620 accounting and reminding them that you've got to tie what you're doing 509 00:36:55.620 --> 00:37:00.900 back to company goals and try to figure out what the financial goals are 510 00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:05.740 particularly. But the sales goals you gotta go ask, uh, these things and 511 00:37:05.740 --> 00:37:09.030 figure out how what you're doing, and it actually gives you a lot of power as 512 00:37:09.030 --> 00:37:14.150 a marketer, if you're able to say, Well, okay, boss, I understand you want to do 513 00:37:14.330 --> 00:37:20.170 a series of tiktok videos to sell these industrial boilers. However, based on 514 00:37:20.180 --> 00:37:24.280 the goals the company has and the targets that you've identified, they're 515 00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:28.960 not actually watching tiktok videos. They are, you know, So it it helps 516 00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:34.050 marketers with managing, uh, what we call management by in Flight magazine, 517 00:37:34.050 --> 00:37:37.340 where the boss comes in and throws a magazine down and says, Hey, how come 518 00:37:37.340 --> 00:37:43.660 we're not doing this? Yeah or that? So that was That was great. And there was 519 00:37:44.130 --> 00:37:47.350 another thing that he talked about in the book. I mean, it's not just 520 00:37:47.350 --> 00:37:50.770 strategies, but it's other really valuable things for marketers. And he 521 00:37:50.780 --> 00:37:56.800 explains that marketing, when it's successful, has very strong 522 00:37:56.800 --> 00:38:01.810 relationships with other business units as well as external suppliers. So in 523 00:38:01.810 --> 00:38:05.850 other words, the most successful marketers are very tight in with what's 524 00:38:05.850 --> 00:38:10.030 going on in sales, and they're very tight and obviously with the way their 525 00:38:10.030 --> 00:38:14.360 customers are buying and they're ideally trying to help making. They're 526 00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:18.210 trying to help make buying from them easier, which can provide a lot of help 527 00:38:18.210 --> 00:38:23.390 to the sales team, your finance people, your operations, folks, is you know, he 528 00:38:23.390 --> 00:38:25.900 talked about that. And I've seen that in some other books. And a lot of 529 00:38:25.900 --> 00:38:31.740 marketers maybe, uh, more junior marketers don't quite understand that. 530 00:38:31.740 --> 00:38:36.110 And marketers defense sometimes they are told, you know, sit there and make 531 00:38:36.110 --> 00:38:40.300 pretty pictures. You know, they don't quite understand. Marketing is Yeah. 532 00:38:40.300 --> 00:38:45.520 Yeah, Exactly. Exactly. So in any way. You know, the other thing that after 533 00:38:45.520 --> 00:38:50.180 you read the book is they talk about how if you are having a strategy 534 00:38:50.180 --> 00:38:56.190 problem, it might not always be strategy. It might be the execution. So, 535 00:38:56.190 --> 00:38:59.020 you know, look, that's why you have I want to have a good relationship with 536 00:38:59.020 --> 00:39:03.540 other with other folks. And there was so much richness in the book, But one 537 00:39:03.540 --> 00:39:07.470 of them, he talks about trying to help your organization understand that any 538 00:39:07.470 --> 00:39:14.170 encounter with your company either damages or improves your customers' 539 00:39:14.170 --> 00:39:19.970 perceptions of your brand, so to speak. And the moment of truth, right? Yeah. 540 00:39:19.980 --> 00:39:25.160 So even the way you send your bills, the way you answer the phone, any A lot 541 00:39:25.160 --> 00:39:29.700 of people don't realize they're all in marketing to a certain extent. they're 542 00:39:29.700 --> 00:39:33.560 all in the customer experience business, right? And I think speaking in these 543 00:39:33.560 --> 00:39:36.690 terms, the way you described it across all the different departments. When 544 00:39:36.690 --> 00:39:40.890 you're speaking to executive, you'll end up speaking in terms that speak to 545 00:39:40.890 --> 00:39:44.810 the goals, and that gets you a license for the revenue that you need to write 546 00:39:44.810 --> 00:39:47.560 the budget that you need to do the projects that you want. It's when you 547 00:39:47.560 --> 00:39:50.290 try to do that in isolation. I think that people start to feel hamstrung 548 00:39:50.290 --> 00:39:53.010 because the executive management doesn't see how the stuff that's 549 00:39:53.010 --> 00:39:55.860 happening in March, you know that that old phrase, you know, I know half my 550 00:39:55.860 --> 00:40:01.320 marketing isn't working. I just don't know which half, Right? So, yeah, Dan's 551 00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:04.780 one takeaway on this one is he was actually hoping that people would take 552 00:40:04.780 --> 00:40:08.040 many things from it, right? Not just one thing, because it is a guidebook 553 00:40:08.040 --> 00:40:12.920 after all, right, But if you if you were spending money on media, then he 554 00:40:12.920 --> 00:40:16.010 thought that the one thing was to start the guidebook there, and the other 555 00:40:16.010 --> 00:40:19.240 thing he recommended is to have your whole team read it so that you can all 556 00:40:19.240 --> 00:40:24.280 be on the same page and, um, honestly, this book is incredibly rich and its 557 00:40:24.280 --> 00:40:28.190 marketing insights I mean, it's very it's very easily accessible. It's a 558 00:40:28.190 --> 00:40:32.820 very concise book. It's got excellent visual models, you know, He he drew 559 00:40:32.830 --> 00:40:37.710 every visual he drew. He actually drew that. He drew every visual in the book. 560 00:40:37.710 --> 00:40:42.360 He's a he's very talented marketer but also an artist. And I think it was only 561 00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:45.880 10 chapters, and it occurred to me like this is something that everyone could 562 00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:50.270 read like one chapter, a month or one chapter a week and just get the 563 00:40:50.270 --> 00:40:54.440 conversation going. And that's where he said, that he's heard from a lot of 564 00:40:54.810 --> 00:40:59.070 marketers who read the book. And again, it's a very short book and it's really 565 00:40:59.070 --> 00:41:03.240 carefully designed. And it's even got one of those little, uh, things you see, 566 00:41:03.240 --> 00:41:06.400 like in a hymnal where you're a piece of cloth. Yeah, and there's another 567 00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:11.140 thing, like a like a journal where the elastic thing goes over it because it's 568 00:41:11.140 --> 00:41:13.570 really going to get and and the pages are very thick, so they're not gonna 569 00:41:13.570 --> 00:41:19.860 get worn out. But he explained that a lot of marketers read this and realized 570 00:41:19.860 --> 00:41:24.570 that you know they get so caught up in, um, the trees that they don't see the 571 00:41:24.570 --> 00:41:30.610 forest and they're forgetting some of the larger strategic issues. So it's a 572 00:41:30.610 --> 00:41:34.420 terrific book, and this is the thing we were talking about, where his publisher 573 00:41:34.420 --> 00:41:39.250 in London said he actually had to post. I was so excited that he posted 574 00:41:39.250 --> 00:41:42.860 something I licked and saying All the people ordering this book. I'm sorry. 575 00:41:42.860 --> 00:41:47.910 We've run out. Thank you for ordering it. They're printing more right now. He 576 00:41:47.910 --> 00:41:53.270 said the marketing podcast listeners were called the Burdette Effect. Oh, no, 577 00:41:53.270 --> 00:41:58.940 no, no. I don't know. Fact. After you're on the marketing podcasts, all 578 00:41:58.940 --> 00:42:04.030 books sell out. My dream is definitely worth it, right? I mean, the models 579 00:42:04.030 --> 00:42:06.710 alone are worth the price of this book. This is this is a great thing to have 580 00:42:06.710 --> 00:42:09.840 on your desk. Yes. I mean, there were seriously, at the very end, there was 581 00:42:09.850 --> 00:42:16.720 just one thing about how to budget one graphic that he did and Mormons grid. 582 00:42:17.200 --> 00:42:20.430 Um, I'm trying to remember now, but it was towards the end, and he was saying, 583 00:42:20.430 --> 00:42:26.050 Here's how to do some of the math behind building your budget to show to 584 00:42:26.050 --> 00:42:30.490 your organization how it's all working. And I just thought, man, just that one 585 00:42:30.490 --> 00:42:35.660 page was great. So yeah, it's, um I was I was delighted to have it on the show, 586 00:42:35.660 --> 00:42:39.250 and actually, I learned about it from a listener. I'm hearing about more and 587 00:42:39.250 --> 00:42:41.890 more books from listeners who tell me. And then they get me in touch with the 588 00:42:41.890 --> 00:42:46.150 author and we go from there and it's a great thing. Yeah, this was a big win. 589 00:42:46.160 --> 00:42:50.090 Alright, well, that's it. Uh, this one's books were all phenomenal as 590 00:42:50.090 --> 00:42:54.190 usual, thanks to partly to the listeners and partly to your excellence, 591 00:42:54.190 --> 00:42:57.760 choice and, uh, books. But all five were excellent. So tell us what new 592 00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:01.040 books we've got coming up on the marketing book podcast. We're gonna go 593 00:43:01.040 --> 00:43:05.170 back before the next time we meet. It's going to be cumulative advantage. How 594 00:43:05.170 --> 00:43:09.440 to build momentum for your ideas, life and business Against All Odds, by Mark 595 00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:13.500 Shaffer, who is the king of the marketing book podcast. He's been on 596 00:43:13.510 --> 00:43:16.790 more than any other author because he's such a prolific writer and I asked 597 00:43:16.790 --> 00:43:20.620 books, and we're going to talk about standout marketing, how to 598 00:43:20.620 --> 00:43:25.450 differentiate your organization in A Sea of Sameness by Simon Kelly, Paul 599 00:43:25.450 --> 00:43:31.080 Johnston and Stacy Dan Heuser. The Strategy Mindset. Two point Oh, A 600 00:43:31.080 --> 00:43:35.980 Practical Guide to the Design and Implementation of Strategy by Chuck 601 00:43:35.990 --> 00:43:41.630 Bamford. Another strategy book. Excellent. Also very short and sell the 602 00:43:41.630 --> 00:43:47.630 way You Buy a modern approach to sales that actually works even On You By 603 00:43:47.630 --> 00:43:54.140 David Primer. So I know James yours. I like that one. Yeah. Oh, they're all 604 00:43:54.150 --> 00:43:57.880 they're all terrific. They're all terrific. And that's it for this month. 605 00:43:57.880 --> 00:44:01.070 B two b Growth show book Talk to learn more about the marketing book podcast, 606 00:44:01.070 --> 00:44:04.360 visit marketing book podcast dot com and to learn more about James in his 607 00:44:04.370 --> 00:44:09.240 excellent book, The Perfect Clothes, Visit pure mirror dot com. That's 608 00:44:09.240 --> 00:44:19.080 spelled P u r e m u i r dot com Is that your brother? Who's an NBC? Uh, news 609 00:44:19.080 --> 00:44:23.530 guy? That's my other brother. Okay, well, as I mentioned earlier, what's 610 00:44:23.530 --> 00:44:28.150 his name? His name is, uh, what's his name? David Mirror. Right. Okay. So, as 611 00:44:28.150 --> 00:44:30.670 I mentioned earlier, if either of us can recommend any marketing or sales 612 00:44:30.670 --> 00:44:34.020 books or other resources for whatever situation you find yourself in or what 613 00:44:34.020 --> 00:44:36.360 you'd like to learn more about. Please feel free to connect with us on 614 00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:39.700 LinkedIn where we can chat and we'll do our best to point you in the right 615 00:44:39.710 --> 00:44:44.750 direction. I do that every day I get so ever only takes a few seconds that I'm 616 00:44:44.750 --> 00:44:48.950 able to suggest thanks to listeners, and it's a lot of fun, But please 617 00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:54.880 include a message. So you heard about us here, so I won't. Yeah, so I won't 618 00:44:54.890 --> 00:45:01.160 ignore you. And remember the words of the late, great Jim Rohn, who said 619 00:45:01.170 --> 00:45:07.010 Formal education will make you a living? Self education will make you a fortune. 620 00:45:11.290 --> 00:45:16.560 Gary V says it all the time, and we agree. Every company should think of 621 00:45:16.560 --> 00:45:22.320 themselves as a media company first, then whatever it is they actually do if 622 00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:26.240 you know this is true, but your team is already maxed out and you can't produce 623 00:45:26.250 --> 00:45:30.400 any more content in house. We can help. We produce podcasts for some of the 624 00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:34.670 most innovative BB brands in the world, and we also help them turn the content 625 00:45:34.670 --> 00:45:39.480 from the podcast and blog posts, micro videos and slide decks that work really 626 00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:43.100 well on Linked in. If you want to learn more, go to sweet fish media dot com 627 00:45:43.100 --> 00:45:47.210 slash launch or email Logan at sweet fish media dot com.