Transcript
WEBVTT
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Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is B two B growth.
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Welcoming friends. We are a month
into a new way of doing B two
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B growth and internally here, and
selfishly, I'll say I've been loving it.
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Looking at responses on Linkedin, we've
been sharing micro clips and I've seen
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a lot of conversations started because of
these episodes, and so it's early,
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but I think I would say a
month in it's been a success, which
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is really, really exciting if you're
new to this format. We sat down
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with a hundred marketing leaders. We
asked fifteen original research questions to get a
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sense of where B Two b marketing
teams are at. And what we're doing
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is we're tackling one of these fifteen
questions on Wednesday's episodes of B two B
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growth. So the question we're gonna
Dialogue about today is who is the marketing
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influence or that you are most influenced
by? And so for today's discussion I've
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got our regulars from the last three
of these. Have James and Logan with
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me here. But I'm excited because
after three months away on fraternity leave,
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we have Dan Sanchez back with us. Dan, welcome back, man,
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it's exciting to have you damn man, it's good to be back. I
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missed this really. People think they
want to be on primitive vacations. I'm
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like, not me, I gotta
be talking about marketing, reading marketing books
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and doing some marketing stuff. Well, we are glad to get your insights
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on this one and glad to have
your face on the screen right now.
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Okay, so I want to just
toss this question to all of us and
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I want to discuss it personally before
we talk about the findings from the hundred
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marketing leaders. James, if I'm
posing this at you first, who's the
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marketing influencer that you are most influenced
by right now? Yeah, so I
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am hands down most influenced by Chris
Walker. So everything that he's been talking
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about around creating demand, capturing demand, dark social I'm listening to stated demand
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Gin at least once a week.
I think there are three or four episodes
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a week. I at least listen
to one of those every week. His
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linkedin content pops up on my feet
every single day. A little context that
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I want to give for for everybody. Benji, we did this research all
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the way back in and then.
So we bid off way more than we
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originally could you when we said we
wanted to talk to a hundred B two
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B marketers for this original research,
and we're like, Oh yeah, we'll
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just like snap our fingers and,
you know, have conversations with a hundred
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different people, like every B two
B company does with original research, bits
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off way more than they to and
realize that's how hard it is. Yeah,
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so it was just a ridiculously arduous
process and we we had fits and
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spurts. So we did part of
it in we then brought somebody into focus
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on it, finished up in one
and then we spent the early part of
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this year kind of packaging it all
together, figuring out what our insights were
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gonna be. So this has been
a long time coming and so I want
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to share that context though. This
one though, marketing, I mean this
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stuff is changing, marketing influencers are
popping up all the time. So I
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just want people that like even in
some of the findings, as I've been
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looking through them on our prep doc
I'm like, I don't know that that
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would be the case today if we
surveyed the same people. Yeah, anyway,
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we'll get into it later. In
the episode, but just wanted to
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give that context. This is from
one is when we asked these hundred B
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twob marketing leaders this question. Yeah, I think more people would probably say
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Chris Uh. He was definitely still
talked about, but even in this I'm,
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you know, doing another round and
his name has come up a few
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times in the original research we're doing
for for next quarter next year. So
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I think that's great context. James
Dan, how about you, man like,
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who are you paying attention to?
WHO's in when Sing your marketing right
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now, I tend to binge somebody
for like a period of a few months
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and then stop listening to them all
together and move on to someone new,
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and I like try to I don't
know, like just smash their thoughts into
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my brain and then I move on. Right now, and probably for like
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the last ten months, this is
longer than normal. Is Alex her Mosey.
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I just can't get enough of it, honestly, because he addresses topics
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that are deeper than marketing, often
going down to the route offering, which
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is kind of marketing, but marketers
usually never get to play there, going
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down to the offering and even did
the market. He's actually given me tools
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to think about how to assess in
the in the playing fields were actually playing
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in, because sometimes it's not a
promotional problem. Might be a product problem.
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Shoot, it might be a market
problem. Oh No, you know,
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without that marketers are just pulling their
hair out trying to figure out why
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isn't this promotion working? Well,
it's because it might be deeper. And
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Alex dives into all of that stuff, and and the promotional side, of
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course, but he's definitely had my
attention for a while now. That's one
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I've definitely he's grown on me so
much last year and I feel like he's
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now everywhere. It's crazy, and
his muscles and mustache definitely have to help
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his brand on. Talking like tennis, I've been following I've been following his
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wife on Youtube too. I mean
she's got phenomenal like contenter culture building at
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Alex and Layla her Mosey. I
think are are some of the best in
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the game right now. Nice,
Logan, you got a new new name
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to throw in the ring here.
Yeah, I will, if I were
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just answering this and like who am
I following the most, you know,
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being challenged by the most, seeing
things differently that would definitely be Chris Walker
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for all the same reasons that James
said. But to add another name to
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the mix, I would say if
I stepped back a little bit and I
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look about the time that I joined
sweet fish and really jumped into the B
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two B marketing world, Mien and
those first couple of years after that,
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I really had my eyes on Dave
Gearhart. Obviously he was at drift at
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that point. He's since moved on
and and doing lots of different things,
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but I think even though he might
not be front of mind for everybody as
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much as maybe Chris Walker someone else
uh these days, to me he influenced
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my thinking and kind of solidified my
thinking in what I wanted to bring from
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my journalism background to be two be
marketing. He's talking a lot about and
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and has talked about building a media
company for your niche rather than just building
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a marketing company, and when he
was at drift that's really what he did.
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People were talking about like I feel
like I'm watching a documentary just seeing
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what drift is doing, like I'm
grabbing my coffee and watching D G and
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D C riff and I remember James
and I talking about those seeking wisdom episodes
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all the time in my early days
of sweet fish. But he's also done
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some very interesting things with community that
I think we'll talk about here in if
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you look at maybe the last two
years of D G's journey. So Dave
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Gearhart's definitely on the list there,
and I would have said Chris Walker and
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and Alex and Leila as well.
So very much like minded with James and
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Dan on that point. I think
a few names come to to my one
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and I was thinking about it in
in some different ways right, because there's
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like content I interact with at at
a mascale or books I've read on marketing
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that have been influential and Dan,
kind of like you, if I deep
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dive into somebody, I feel like
if I really listen and I really digest
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their content for let's say three to
six months, I feel like their voice
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starts getting in my head to an
extent where, even though I'm not consuming
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their content anymore, I know they
how they would think about certain things and
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then I'm operating from that. So
it's like WHO's influencing my marketing? Well,
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technically like all these different people that
I went and binged their content.
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You know, in the past and
now that that all lives in me,
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just as other authors of other types
of books outside of marketing. But I'll
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just say a couple that have influenced
me since last November when I came on
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the team here at sweet fish.
I think Justin Simon so good at talking
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about repurposing content over and over and
over again. He's a content marketing at
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metadata and I just really appreciate how
he picked a niche, a topic to
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really go after and has just figured
out ways to keep talking about it.
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And so while he's not a macro
influencer, he's someone that has influenced the
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way I think about how do we
distribute B two B growth episodes? How
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should we think about redistribution in a
new way and not as like this,
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create a piece of content, promote
it once and let it die, and
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so that's been something I've I've thought
about consistently really because of him. And
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then the other one is less like
they only talk about marketing, but they
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talk about business and they talk about
marketing enough that I'm learning a lot from
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them. And it's the guys from
my first million absolutely fun, fantastic podcast
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and they're so like friendly and they're
bouncing these ideas off each other constantly that
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it's like, Oh, we could
take that and we could use it in
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our marketing, we could like so
I I think my first million has just
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continued to grow on me and and
those guys are are having an influence on
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the way I think about marketing.
So alright, let's let's talk about what
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we actually found owned in the results
here, and it's it's funny, Logan,
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because you brought up Dave Gerhardt and
he was the standalone winner. So
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of the respondents said Dave, and
then Seth Goden came up. I have
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this is marketing behind me on on
my shelf. Seth is definitely played a
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distinct role in how I think.
And then Chris Walker. So they were
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at like ten and eleven percent of
the vote, James, like you said
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earlier, probably for for Chris,
that number is higher in the B Two
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b space now just with all the
content that they've pushed out. And then
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it's interesting to look at it in
percentages. So when you think of it
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in three distinct groups, you could
think of it as like macro sort of
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celebrities, hundred K plus followers.
Then you have like micro influencers, let's
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say five or four thousand to a
hundred K, and then you have personal
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connections. It was a bit like
split. So thirty seven percent for celebrities,
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like the macro. Then you have
personal connections at thirty three percent,
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people that we know like trust and
maybe they don't have this huge following,
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but they're influencing our marketing, and
then micro influencers. At with those numbers
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and mind James, like, what
do you think of as as a key
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finding as it's sort of like,
oh, that's that's interesting when you see
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that sort of Split. Yeah,
so as as I look at the list
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of who these folks mentioned, one
of the things that stood out to me
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is there's this combination of personality and
expertise that equates to influence and some it's
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not like a perfect formula. It's
not like Oh, it has to be
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half expertise half personality. Some people
lean heavier on the expertise. I think
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Chris Walker Leans Heavier on the expertise, doesn't necessarily inject as much personality into
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his content, but he's so freaking
smart you just want to gobble up all
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of that expertise. I would say
Seth Goden errs on that side too,
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where it's like his ideas are so
profound, he's clearly put an enormous amount
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of thought into the ideas that he
shares in the content that he puts out,
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not necessarily as much personality, whereas
like Dave Gearhart or Christopher Lockhead,
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I think they inject more personality into
their content. They've still got great ideas,
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but it's a little bit more personality
driven, even in their social content
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and what they're putting out on Linkedin. Like it especially comes out on their
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podcast when you're hearing them articulate these
ideas. There's just more personality and more
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charisma in the delivery of the blockheads
just trying to figure out ways to step
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on your toes, trying to annoy
you, trying to get under your skin
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right, he's just trying to figure
out how to push you up. But
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I think it's a camp like.
I think a combination of two of those
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things. It's like personality and extra
case. And as I thought about I
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have thought about this from my own
like, as we're obviously all of us
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on this call, like we want
to influence our market, and so it's
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like where do I lean heavier and
it's probably more personality, not necessarily in
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like a charisma like you look,
look at me, but more like I'm
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much more collaborative. I want to
have conversations like this. I don't just
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want to, you know, get
behind a mic and and like pontificate on
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a thought, quite frankly, because
I just I think there are people on
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this team that are always smarter than
me and a lot of this stuff,
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and so I'd rather have it be
more collaborative. My presence on Linkedin be
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more like tagging other people and like
hey, like, this person had a
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really good thought, you know,
on this idea too. So anyway,
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that was the key finding for me
from this. Looking at the list of
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names going man, all of these
folks seem to have either an element of
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like big personality or it's deep,
deep expertise and like where, where's the
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balancing act there? So that that
was my finding. I think you make
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a really good point, James,
about the balance there and also some nuance
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to the quote unquote personality part of
it. Like we think if, hey,
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someone's building a personal brand and their
personality is a big part of it,
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it has to be this certain type
of personality right, it has to
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be super gregarious or controversial. Like
there's a list of like three personality traits
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that work with building a personal brand
and I would say that, you know,
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you mentioned Chris Walker leaning more into
his expertise, but if you think
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about it, his story is coming
from engineer and that sort of mindset to
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marketing and he brings that personality to
it. If you listen to demand Gen
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live and he gets a question,
he's not afraid to just be like,
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okay, hold on, let me
think about that, right, and you
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can almost see like the engineering mind
working out that problem. And so he
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does bring a specific personality to it, even though it's not kind of your
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typical big personality. So I think
you've got to think about that as well.
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I think that's a good point,
Logan, because if you think of
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Dave Gerhard, he to me,
brings more personality. He still has an
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element of deep expertise. Like I
I've taken his mark it in course and
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I've loved it, but it's all
community based, like all the sessions are
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him riffing on ideas with a group
of marketers. Very different than I would
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expect. If if Chris Walker even
though he does the lives. He's like
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here's a question, and Chris is
like a surgeon going in and like thinking
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in a different way than where Dave
is like, well, what if,
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like, I ask a question and
then you ponder it and you think about
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it for yourself? And what would
you what conclusion would you come to?
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And it's it's just a different way
of thinking about it. I also think,
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James, I love that equation Brand
personality plus plus expertise equals influence,
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because you could think about it in
a team context where it's like we have
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people that can lean into personality and
we have people on our team that can
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lean into expertise, and if you
have a good mix of both, you
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can not just think about it personally, but you can think about it for
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how do we in the way that
we all function like own do I lean
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into brand personality right now? Do
I lean into deep expertise here? And
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then you get a good mix and
multiple people are influencing the market in a
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way, so it's personal and it's
like aspirational for your team. Dan,
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what's the key finding for you here? Man, I remember looking through all
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the data and I was going through
name by name like taling up these names
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to see who had the most votes, but what was surprising to me was
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all the people who had like one, two, three. People remember,
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like these are the answers that someone's
given to WHO's the most influential to you,
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the most influential on our people that
are less recognized? I'm like,
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there's a lot of people that have
influence, but only of a few.
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But as a marketer who wants to
get into influencer marketing, I'm like,
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Dang, like everybody should be doing
this process of gathering data from their customers
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or their prospects and asking him who's
the most influential to not only so you
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can find the obvious people at the
top, because we could have guessed Chris
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Walker, could have guessed Dave Gearhard, we would have. We knew those
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people were in the mix right and
didn't know Steth Goden was as relevant as
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he is today as he was like
ten years ago. But he's still high
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in the mix, so that's good
to know. But he's not. He's
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not super easy to get. It's
the people underneath and I'm like, Dang,
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you need to start asking this question
early and often to kind of get
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a pulse on who is it?
Because reaching out to these people who have
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like maybe a small ten followers,
but good followers there. For some people,
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maybe a thousand or two thousand people, they're the most influential person to
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M m. So there's something to
be said for getting working this original research
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practice into your content marketing stream,
whether you do it through a podcast or
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asking people on Linkedin, like,
you need to be figuring out who these
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people are. Yeah, well said, and you pointed out something else when
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you were looking at the findings that
I think would be insightful to talk about
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here, which is the fact that, and I am totally one of these
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marketers, but I don't like being
the one to say this is an influencer
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in my life. And I don't
know what it is about the language,
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but even like the thought leader stuff, when that comes up, it's like
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just the language is hard for us
to get behind. Talk about what you
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were thinking there, because that that
was a really good point, ma'am.
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Yeah, that was something I heard
over and over again and it was even
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typed up in the responses that we
took from verbal verbal responses. Is that
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I don't even some people are like
influencers or just BS. I don't even
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like it. Some people are like
I like more practitioners than influencers and generally
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when they said that or a number
of other things that were kind of along
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those same lines, they all just
felt cringeing about the word influencer, because
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we hear influencer, we think B
TWOC influencer, which is the person that
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has no substance, that is just
for some reason, really influential. You
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think of like the Kardashians, oh
my gosh, the biggest influencers on the
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planet. But nobody like I knew
you were going to say the Kardashians.
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I was smiling before you even said
it. Everybody likes to pick on them
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because no substance, no substance,
right. So we're carrying that mindset of
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influencers over to the B two B
space. But in order to really work
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and be influential and B two B, generally, I'd say, or more
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of the influencers I see and B
Two B are coming from practitioners, practitionership.
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There's a few evangelists out there that, you know, used to be
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practitioners but they haven't done crap in
like decades, right. So there's a
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few of those, but most of
them aren't the same. So while I
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know there's like influencers, seeing as
like a, as a just has.
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It leaves a bad taste in people's
mouths. When I think when we say
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it and B, two B,
it's still it's still works and we can
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change the name of it, just
kind of like we need to change the
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name of thought leadership because it's tarnish
too. But generally it's still they're still
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influential because of their expertise, because
of their what they're actually doing in their
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day jobs. So it's just you
have to be careful when approaching these people,
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maybe not to call them influencers or
lead, lead, like, Oh,
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I want to introduce you to so
said influencer because they're joining us on
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this thing. Don't use that language. But when you're in the back room
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talking about which influencers to go and
find for your campaign, then use it,
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but out externally I would avoid it
at all costs, especially if you're
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talking to marketers, who I think
have an extra bs detector on that stuff.
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Yeah, if your audience as marketers, I don't know that. Like
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for those listening to this episod that
don't serve marketers like we do. You
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know, just the context there,
like that word might not be tarnished in
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other spaces, like HR folks might
be a okay with with that kind of
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language, but but if you're serving
marketers, for sure it seems to be
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a dirty word. That's a really
good point, James. One of the
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things we ask when we're launching new
podcasts and we're thinking about the brand identity
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of a show, we ask our
clients here at sweet fish what are words
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that your audience, your target market, would use to describe themselves and what
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are words that they wouldn't use to
describe themselves? Like innovators is another one
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of those that people could roll their
eyes out or they could be like,
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I'm an innovator right. It can
have different connotation depending on who you're talking
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to. I think the other thing, this has come up a little bit,
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that that I thought about when looking
at this research was that community building
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is a strong tool set in those
that are really creating influence in their niche.
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You think about Chris Walker and what
they did with demand Gen live.
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That went, you know, to
a hundred episodes and they're kind of reinventing
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it now, but it was content, right, and it fueled his linked
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in which was already, you know, growing and getting traction there. But
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people were coming there so that they
had asked live questions and it was a
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little bit different format. David Gerhardt
started doing that with D G MG in
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those groups that have, you know, turned into now there's a job board
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component and there's there's different aspects to
that on on facebook and the other ways
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that he's managing that community. And, as Dan was saying earlier, doing
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community can look a little bit different, right. It can be kind of
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a m a style, like Chris
has done with demands in live. It
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can be more collaborative, it can
be, you know, we've done some
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testing with community with building my club, and it's a little bit of both.
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It's a little bit of answering questions
but also creating a space where people
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who have B two B podcasts can
ask questions of each other, right,
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and so I think community building can
have different components and you can prioritize different
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aspects of it. But when we
look at a few people on these lists,
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community was definitely part of their strategy
and something you should think about too.
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Yeah, community, how you actually
engage with people. If you're an
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influencer of any size, or even
if you're just like, okay, I'm
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going to be more active on Linkedin, if that's your goal, the type
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of community you create, how you
actually connect with people, is clearly a
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big thing. You need to be
thinking about engaging in the comments, not
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just creating this content, not just
trying to be a thought leader, but
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like even creating better content. When
you think of these people that we've mentioned,
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it's because they have good interaction with
their their listeners, their ideal client,
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that then it informs their content in
a very real way, and that
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community pieces is vital. I think
of just creating content that resonates like you
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would about your favorite restaurant, and
that was the thing I just kept thinking
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about over and over again. Is
like if thirty three percent said that they're
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most influenced by personal connection. Like, Oh man, I you know,
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if I have something in my marketing
that I've questioned about or whatever, I
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go to this small group of CMOS. I go to, you know,
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these people that I trust, that
I used to work with. It's the
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same as word of mouth in like, I really like this pizza, so
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I'm going to recommend it to a
friend and you'll hear these influencers talk about
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how, at some level what happens
is they say something that really resonates and
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then a CEO sees it on Linkedin
and shares it in their slack community and
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like everybody needs to go watch this. We do this all the time at
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sweet fish. We see something that
should inform our marketing and we go and
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share it. So when you think
of creating content, you're thinking, I
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want to create content that resonates,
because if it resonates, it's shareable,
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and if it's share able, then
it means that not only am I now
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hitting the micro right, like the
thirty percent that have that four hundred thousand.
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If you're in that range right,
you're already a micro influencer, but
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also it's being shared and so the
peer space is sharing it, and that's
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the other so now you're hitting like
this bigger part of our results. I
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don't know, I just kept thinking, like word of mouth and content matters
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so much, and that's why these
guys that we've talked about really resonate,
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is because now these people that we
know, like and trust are also sharing
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their content. So it's a flywheel
of sorts for audience growth. To use
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the language we always use, your
as sweet fish. I think that's why
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honing in on your message and being
able to pound it over and over and
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over and over and over and over
and over again, getting clear, like,
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for us, affinity over awareness,
by by commodity content like those things
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like, the more clear we can
be on the messages that we're putting into
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the market, and the more we
repeat those things over and over and over
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again, the more we become associated
with those things. So when, when
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that talk does happen, we we
know that we're being associated with the things
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that we're just saying over and over
and over again. It's easier. You're
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enabling word of mouth by associating your
self with key messages that you intentionally and
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thoughtfully talk about in different ways,
but it's the same key message over and
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over and over again. Like people
know that Chris Walker is associated with,
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you know, doing attribution, differently, dark social, creating demand and capturing
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demand, and he's done a masterful
job of of packaging his ideas. I
359
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know that's something that I've heard Dan
talk about. This idea of packaging your
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ideas. U is not something that
we talk about enough, but it's a
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really good point. I had a
former client of ours reach out on linked
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in and she dmed me and said, hey, we're looking at this platform
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as a podcast host what do you
know about them? And it's a platform
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that we don't currently use as our
main hosting platform, but we've engaged with
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I know some people at the company, I know a little bit of history.
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I was able to give her some
insights and like hey, here's what
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I think is maybe good bad,
here's some questions to ask, here's limitations
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of what I know, and after
I sent that back she was like thanks
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for the dark social insights. Right, and I know that she said that
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because she's been following Chris Walker,
because she used the same language. Now,
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that doesn't just happen overnight. Like
you said, you've got to deliver
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the same message in a lot of
different ways, in a lot of different
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scenarios, and you've got to package
them in a way that people can can
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repeat them. I think sometimes we
don't think about that. We're just like
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I'm bringing good ideas, right,
but are they packaged in a way that
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it is very easy for someone to
start using it in conversation? So that
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was a very clear example to me
of Chris's influence coming through in an interaction
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where I recognized where that term came
from and why she was using it.
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Yeah, lockheads are great example of
this as well. Like you just clearly
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know, he's gonna keep pounding this
idea of category creation and he's just gonna
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do it over and over again.
He's gonna think of really creative ways to
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do it and people use the language
that he creates because he's masterful with folks
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writing and with speaking and communicating.
That and the whole idea of being pirates.
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I just category pirates like that whole
thing is just so brilliant it's I
385
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obsess over it. Okay, I
want to go get to remedies here and
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I want to just talk about like, okay, it's one thing to be
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like, Oh, who's your favorite
influencer? Right now, that question at
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its surface. Maybe like all right, we're just gonna toss out some names.
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Maybe it's some New People for you
to follow, or you'll just hear
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us like gushing about these people,
but there's actually prescriptive things I would say
391
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because of the results that we're going
hey, pay attention to this or try
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00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:33.599
this, do this, Dan,
as you think of remedies and recommendations.
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What's something you think of? I
think if you're able to get the right
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data about who the influencers are of
your prospects, like we just talked about
395
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before, it makes it right for
B two B to finally enter into influence
396
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our marketing. You know, however, you take that term right, and
397
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before it was kind of hard,
like Oh, who do we find?
398
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What do we do with them?
But now you have a list and,
399
00:26:55.400 --> 00:26:56.200
more importantly, and not a list, of the big names, with a
400
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little names, and you can reach
out to them and build relationships with them
401
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:03.200
one on one, either through social
or having them on your podcast. But
402
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:07.160
I think now, now is the
time, because you can essentially test your
403
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:10.240
way into it without losing your shirt
on one big deal. You can do
404
00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:11.799
a bunch of small ones and see
how it goes and kind of scale it
405
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:15.079
out. There's actually a way to
do that now that you can just go
406
00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:18.279
and just ask him who's influencing you. I know it seems like we should
407
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have just asked them before who the
heck they're influencer is, but sometimes you
408
00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:26.440
you look back, Um, like
at your past self you're like, Oh,
409
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.519
past self, why didn't you know
this? Maybe maybe other people knew
410
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:32.319
this, but I'm just figuring it
out looking at this research now, like
411
00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:36.079
Dang, I wish I'd been doing
this my whole freaking career, just asking
412
00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:38.319
the prospects who's the most influential and
then going and reaching out to those people,
413
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:42.799
building relationships and collaborating with them,
or asked, building relationship and asking
414
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:47.160
an approach your event or your Webinar
or whatever you have coming up, your
415
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:49.599
book launch. If you've built relationship
with them and added value to them,
416
00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:53.359
then they'll probably do so in return
and build a good relationship with all the
417
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:59.039
people who influence your prospect and other
people have written about this. Holmes is
418
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:02.759
probably the most famous. The dream
one, the same concept, but using
419
00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:06.720
original research to find who that one
is instead of guessing. That's the key.
420
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.799
Mm Hmm, great point there.
Yeah, Logan, what about you?
421
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:15.680
Man? I love what Dan said
about adding value. Right, let's
422
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.960
say you've identified the WHO right,
it can be very easy to say,
423
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:22.640
okay, now we're gonna go ask
all these people to collaborate on content or
424
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:26.839
to create some sort of partnership.
But think about before you make that ask
425
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:29.680
how are we going to make it
worth their while, because they're getting a
426
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:32.880
lot of pitches right, and so
how can you make the most of that?
427
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:36.319
So I just wanted to reiterate that
point. The other thing I would
428
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:41.160
think about is look at their content
and what's really resonating. Just because you
429
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:45.359
you see, whether you do research
on Spark Toro or you ask your clients
430
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:51.359
or you ask your market on Linkedin
or other social platform, it doesn't mean
431
00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:55.039
that just like Oh, you get
this influencer to do some content collaboration with
432
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:59.160
you and just ask them to show
up and just drop fire right, because
433
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:02.400
if you look at some of the
people we've been talking about, James and
434
00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:04.519
I were talking about this the other
day. D G posts a lot recently,
435
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:08.039
like three or four times a day. Some posts will blow up and
436
00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:12.640
others it's crickets. Right. I
mean these influencers, like the term or
437
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:18.279
not, these folks that are influencing
people. They have content that really resonates
438
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:21.680
and some that misses a little.
So make sure you're prepared to get the
439
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:26.720
most out of that collaboration once you
identify who it is, once you do
440
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.519
the research and add the value to
get them to collaborate with you, make
441
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:33.000
sure it doesn't fall flat and just
ask them to show up and drop fire.
442
00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:36.759
The other thing you can do,
let's say you're gonna do a Webinar,
443
00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:40.279
you're gonna do a podcast with some
influencer in your space. People have
444
00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:44.680
probably heard from them elsewhere. That's
why they're an influencer, right. So
445
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:48.559
how can you make your content with
them different? One thing you can do
446
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.759
is go to listen notes DOT COM, search their name, listen to five,
447
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.519
ten or more podcast episodes that they've
done in other places and think about
448
00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:00.279
what did they not answer right?
How can I go deeper on something where,
449
00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:03.880
Oh, if I was listening to
that episode, I wouldn't ask this
450
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:07.960
question, and then use that in
the content that you create with them to
451
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:11.519
make it different, as opposed to, Oh, I'm seeing Gary V on
452
00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:15.359
another podcast, where I'm I'm hearing
from you know this person again, I
453
00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:18.559
know what they're gonna say. Trying
to go a little bit deeper, and
454
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.400
that's a tactical way that you can
do that with someone who is already creating
455
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.799
a lot of content. How do
you infuse your P O v Logan when
456
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:30.480
you're thinking of the episodes of B
Two b growth that you used to host,
457
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:33.519
because I think this is a constant
battle. I said, like for
458
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:36.640
myself, we're like, okay,
sweet, you got so and so on
459
00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:40.279
your podcast. You got so and
so, you know, collaborating on content
460
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:42.720
with you. They have a big
platform. You might get more listens on
461
00:30:42.759 --> 00:30:45.079
that episode. Maybe. I don't
even know if that proves out all the
462
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:48.160
time, because if they're everyone doesn't
always. It depends on a number of
463
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:51.960
things, right, it depends.
So then it's like, okay, it's
464
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:56.880
very vital that if I have a
business piece of content I need to infuse,
465
00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:00.960
and we've been beating this like and
non stop the last month, like
466
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:04.119
we have to infuse our P O
v, but they also have theirs and
467
00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:10.000
so like. How do you do
that tactfully? Any any strategy thoughts there?
468
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.200
Yeah, I'm actually thinking of a
time when I interviewed Chris Walker,
469
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:18.119
probably to maybe three years ago,
on B two B growth, and I
470
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:22.400
don't think I was, you know, as prepared for it as what you
471
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:23.839
know, I was just describing now. I wish I would have, you
472
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.920
know, like Dan said past self, you should have done this, you
473
00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:30.480
should have done that. But when
he was saying things that aligned with the
474
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:34.640
things that we talk about at sweet
fish. I found myself saying, Oh,
475
00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:38.200
I agree with that, we think
about it in this term or we
476
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:42.319
use this term to talk about that. So that's where the packaging ideas,
477
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:47.799
if you're ready with like Oh,
we think of that as affinity over awareness,
478
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:51.240
right. And you know, let's
say I'm interviewing Chris and he says
479
00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:55.160
something to that effect but doesn't use
that language. I can kind of capitalize
480
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:57.519
on the fact that, hey,
this influential person is saying this thing.
481
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:02.200
It maps to the way that we
package this idea and now I'm I'm tying
482
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:09.480
their reach and their influence to our
vehicle for making that piece memorable. There's
483
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:13.119
two other ways I can think of, because I've done that. One that's
484
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:15.079
like essentially sharing, like Oh,
you said this, we agree, but
485
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:19.119
we twisted a little bit differently.
It's like this. But there's two other
486
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:21.920
ways that I found you can do
it and that you can actually debate them
487
00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:23.839
and be like Oh, that's funny. I actually think the opposite. Here's
488
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:28.720
why we we call it and then
you lay out your your message and then
489
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:31.000
you have a fun little casual like
debate and go back and forth and test
490
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:35.519
each other. That honestly makes you
some really good content because it creates tension.
491
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:37.359
Usually I almost find you end up
somewhere in the middle if you're both
492
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:40.759
pretty good experts, like the truth
is the truth, and you usually ends
493
00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:46.000
up being sebmantical. Or you can
ask for feedback. That's the other one
494
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:49.480
that I like to say, if
they're like really good an author on the
495
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:52.839
subject, like Hey, what do
you think about x? Maybe it's an
496
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:54.519
idea you've been working on, you've
been preparing, you've tested it, it's
497
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:58.960
been going well and there there's someone
you admire or someone you know has I
498
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:01.519
would have some good thoughts on it. Asking for feedback live on a podcast
499
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:05.799
interview is another way to get your
message out there and funny it's fun to
500
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:08.160
have them pick it apart or affirm
it or I don't know. It's the
501
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:12.480
way you get better too. It's
vulnerable, but honestly it's the best way
502
00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:15.480
to go. Yeah, I love
that one. It's just hey, I've
503
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:16.880
been thinking about it this way.
What do you think on that? Like,
504
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:21.240
here's my theory. Give me some
feedback on on the way that I'm
505
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:23.920
thinking about this. It's such a
good prompt because it's not like this formal
506
00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:29.519
question like you typically would do.
It's a little open ended and you've provided
507
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:32.440
some context for from where you're coming
from. So that's that's good. Uh.
508
00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:38.079
And actually to the debate side of
things. We just re UH featured
509
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:43.400
the conversation, Dan, that you
did with Sam Moss where you debated brand
510
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:45.200
and branding. So it's just really
good timing. If you're look at the
511
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:47.960
B two B growth feed, you'll
see that. But that's that whole deal
512
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:52.079
right. Create some tension there.
Had A little bit of different views on
513
00:33:52.119 --> 00:33:55.680
Linkedin and uh, that produced some
really fun content. James, what are
514
00:33:55.720 --> 00:34:00.000
you thinking about as as it pertains
to ways that we should perceive because of
515
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:05.000
the findings to this question? Yeah, so, I mean, obviously influencers
516
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:09.559
are playing a huge role in how
markets are making decisions, whether it's for
517
00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:15.519
a software product or a service,
and so I think the marketers listening to
518
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:20.280
this really need to start considering how
they can turn their CEO, or at
519
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:23.480
least a subject matter expert on their
team. But oftentimes the CEO is a
520
00:34:23.480 --> 00:34:29.880
great fit for this. But turning
an individual on your team into an influencer
521
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:34.480
as cringe e as that word is
to to whoever is listening this, and
522
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:37.840
I think we've developed a pretty strong
formula for how to do that, even
523
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:39.880
with what we're doing here on B
two, B growth. So you have
524
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:45.519
to start with POV development. You
have got to get clear on what your
525
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:50.400
CEO or the subject matter expert what
are their points of view? What's a
526
00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:53.920
commonly held belief about our industry that
you passionately disagree with? What is something
527
00:34:53.960 --> 00:35:00.000
that people in our industry should stop
doing today because it is damaging to them
528
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:04.400
and they don't even realize that?
What should they start doing today that they're
529
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:07.119
not doing but they desperately need to
be doing? Like those three P O
530
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:13.639
v Discovery Questions are a magic bullet
for figuring out what your point of view
531
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.400
can be. Once you figure out
that point of view, come up with
532
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:22.079
ten to fifteen questions that you can
do original research with in your market,
533
00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:25.639
so you don't have to go ask
a hundred people like we did for this
534
00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:30.400
research. You can go and ask, you know, fifteen to twenty people.
535
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:34.920
That could be existing customers, it
could be potential customers, that could
536
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:37.840
be people that you have on your
podcast that you do a pre pre interview
537
00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:42.320
with where you ask them these questions. Some of them are going to be
538
00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:45.480
related to your CEO's point of views, our points of view, others are
539
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:50.320
just things that you want to know
about them, and then you, as
540
00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:57.039
the marketer, like extract insights from
the responses that you got to these questions
541
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:01.599
and then go riff with your CEO
or your subject matter expert on these topics
542
00:36:01.639 --> 00:36:07.119
and in a very similar way to
what we're doing here, the social content
543
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:12.320
that is coming out of these episodes
are getting far more reach than the episodes
544
00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:16.719
to themselves, and I think that's
a really powerful concept that if you're getting
545
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:22.159
your setting, your CEO, your
subject matter expert up for not just creating
546
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:25.599
great long form content that we know
builds affinity, but you're also going to
547
00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:30.880
help them create lots of micro content. And when I think about the people
548
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:34.719
that are influencing me the most,
my list comes from like I listened to
549
00:36:34.760 --> 00:36:37.159
Alex and her layla her Mosey,
because I see them pull up on Linkedin
550
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:43.880
all the time. You see these
folks micro content way more frequently and I
551
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:47.679
see Chris's videos on linkedin show up
way more often than I consume his long
552
00:36:47.719 --> 00:36:52.239
form content. Now, his long
form content is fantastic and I consume,
553
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.199
you know, about once a week, but I see Chris Walker on Linkedin
554
00:36:55.440 --> 00:37:00.480
every single day and I think we've
got to if we want to turn CEO,
555
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:04.639
or at least the subject matter expert
internally, into an influencer, we've
556
00:37:04.679 --> 00:37:07.760
got to think about how we can
make this person visible to the people that
557
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:14.079
we want them to be visible.
Too often, very often. Yeah,
558
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:16.679
that's a good way of of putting
it and summing that up. When I'm
559
00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:24.679
thinking of everything we've talked about,
this idea of variety organized winds keeps popping
560
00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:30.119
up in my head, and what
I mean by that is there's influencers who
561
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:34.239
are doing a certain thing really well, like in Chris Walker's thing, it's
562
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:37.400
like I'm gonna do this live and
then we're gonna make it all this micro
563
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:39.159
content and it's also going to be
the podcast. And now he's evolved that
564
00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:43.760
and he's doing like tiktok stuff.
When you look at podcasts, that when
565
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:46.199
they don't keep it the same at
all times, there's like some variety in
566
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:51.559
there, but then it's organized,
it's packaged, as we have mentioned here,
567
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:54.559
in a way that makes sense,
and so even for B two B
568
00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:59.320
growth right now, I think one
of the things that's unique is we're trying
569
00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:02.880
in working on multiple things at once. So think about the fact that there's
570
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:07.400
in this feed right now, there's
episodes that we're doing with thought leaders,
571
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:13.280
with influencers in marketing, and those
conversations are wonderful. Maybe a little bit
572
00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:15.480
less of our shared Po v because
we're spotlighting those people, but that's a
573
00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:19.400
lot of the way that sweet fish
was built. Right. Content based networking
574
00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:23.920
still works because you're connecting with ideal
clients, with ideal customers, and you're
575
00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:29.679
having informing relationship there. You're asking
quality questions, you're creating content together,
576
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:34.199
which deepens the relationship. There's so
much value in content based networking. At
577
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.840
the same time, James, what
you're talking about now, with original research,
578
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:43.000
with having someone on your team become
an expert and always be in the
579
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:46.119
feed, always be shared, like
you're you're sharing your Po v and unique
580
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:51.760
way we do that with these episodes
that you're listening to, and it's these
581
00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:55.159
unique plays that are then organized in
a way that makes sense. Behind the
582
00:38:55.159 --> 00:39:01.039
scenes. You can facilitate variety and
that win. Like there's a lot of
583
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:05.880
ways to win, but a big
part of this whole thing right is like
584
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:10.199
consistent content pushed out regularly using your
p O v, whether it's with other
585
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:14.440
people that have already built a platform
or whether it's your team that's trying to
586
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:19.360
build platform or has some level of
of authority. I think that variety organized
587
00:39:19.960 --> 00:39:22.800
really really wins. Then that means
we're gonna wrap it up and this has
588
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:27.119
been a really fun conversation. If
you've been liking this and you have yet
589
00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:30.960
to follow the podcast, do that
on whatever your favorite podcast platform is so
590
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:36.639
you never missed an episode. Connect
with Logan, James Dan Myself over on
591
00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:40.320
Linkedin. We would love to chat
with you about all things influencers. If
592
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:44.119
there's someone that's really impacted you that
we didn't talk about, we would love
593
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:45.920
to know who they are so we
can follow them and if they're influencing your
594
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:50.239
marketing, we'd love to love to
hear about how how they're doing that.
595
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:54.039
All right, we'll be back real
soon with another episode and keep doing work
596
00:39:54.360 --> 00:40:10.440
that matters. We're always excited to
have conversations with leaders on the front lines
597
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:15.400
of marketing. If there's a marketing
director or a chief marketing officer that you
598
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:19.239
think we need to have on the
show. Reach out email me, Benji
599
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:22.239
dot block at Sweet Fish Media Dot
Com. I look forward to hearing from you