What Stops Companies From ABM

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:08.840 welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Dan Sanchez with sweet Fish Media, and 2 00:00:08.840 --> 00:00:13.140 I am continuing my journey into the A B M space. So far I've heard from a 3 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:16.390 variety of thought leaders, practitioners, and it reviewed a number 4 00:00:16.390 --> 00:00:21.170 of re sources, including the book No Forms, no spam, no cold calls. And it's 5 00:00:21.170 --> 00:00:24.990 actually with that author that I have the privilege of having on the show 6 00:00:24.990 --> 00:00:30.550 today. In addition to being the author, lat, Nie Conan also services the CMO 7 00:00:30.550 --> 00:00:35.290 six cents and I'm excited. I'm excited to host er, so I always like to kick it 8 00:00:35.290 --> 00:00:38.710 off with a bit of a fun question. I thought I asked Latin me what was a fun 9 00:00:38.720 --> 00:00:43.250 or maybe even kind of creepy experience where the marketing technology or 10 00:00:43.250 --> 00:00:48.860 marketing ad you were served was like so on point, so personalized maybe that 11 00:00:48.860 --> 00:00:52.970 it was almost a little to on point. It was a little creepy. In fact, do you 12 00:00:52.970 --> 00:00:58.120 have an experience like that you've had recently? So it wasn't an ad, but I 13 00:00:58.120 --> 00:01:06.280 will say when I moved to six cents, I got a direct mail package within, I 14 00:01:06.290 --> 00:01:07.350 don't know a week 15 00:01:08.440 --> 00:01:14.430 from Salesforce with a bunch of different stuff, and I don't know if it 16 00:01:14.430 --> 00:01:23.760 felt creepy or just It felt wasteful to me because assuming someone's brand new 17 00:01:24.240 --> 00:01:30.230 and therefore or is in market, I felt really wasteful. And so I just was. So 18 00:01:30.230 --> 00:01:35.130 that's what s so it's less about creepy for me. I think when I see things like 19 00:01:35.130 --> 00:01:38.480 that, it's more like, Oh, this was really expensive and it's not gonna 20 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:42.880 work And then I, like, get stressed about them and their CAC and their 21 00:01:42.880 --> 00:01:47.830 budget and E. I mean, we've all seen Salesforce spend a lot of money on 22 00:01:47.830 --> 00:01:53.090 things, and you're like, Wow, that was extravagant And it didn't help me get 23 00:01:53.090 --> 00:01:56.740 there at all, right? I don't think I'm any farther down their funnel at any 24 00:01:56.740 --> 00:02:01.600 point because they dropped so much money on this open bar event e mean, 25 00:02:01.600 --> 00:02:09.180 that actually might have gotten me to send I don't know that E Yeah, but that 26 00:02:09.180 --> 00:02:14.150 was kind of my wow we've got to get I mean, most people, their marketing 27 00:02:14.150 --> 00:02:18.490 programs need to be a lot more sustainable. Certainly when you're that 28 00:02:18.490 --> 00:02:22.050 big, maybe I don't know. They're just measuring things at a different level. 29 00:02:22.440 --> 00:02:26.160 to jump into this. I want to hear a little bit about your story. I know you 30 00:02:26.160 --> 00:02:30.530 didn't start off in a B. M. In fact, a B M is kind of a I mean, it's been 31 00:02:30.530 --> 00:02:33.280 around a long time, but it's been a it's been the term for probably like 32 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:36.650 the last five years or so. So where does your journey start? And how did 33 00:02:36.650 --> 00:02:41.170 you get to this point where you're the CMO of a leading company around account 34 00:02:41.170 --> 00:02:45.940 engagement? Jeez, it's better to be lucky than good, I suppose so. You know, 35 00:02:45.940 --> 00:02:52.210 I was the c m o of a company called Appear E O and my first bout with a B M 36 00:02:52.210 --> 00:02:57.990 or Experience with a B M Waas. You know, my team went to seriously decisions 37 00:02:57.990 --> 00:03:02.050 conference and everyone was talking about a B M. And they came back and 38 00:03:02.050 --> 00:03:06.090 they said, Oh, my God, we have to do Abia. It's the way of the future. It's 39 00:03:06.090 --> 00:03:10.760 what everyone's doing. We gotta buy a B M technology. We gotta be all a b m 40 00:03:10.760 --> 00:03:15.450 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was kind of like, Okay, you know. Okay, you 41 00:03:15.450 --> 00:03:20.800 can try it. Fine. And so they said, Well, we get the first step of a B m is 42 00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:25.080 to talk to sales about accounts that they think would be good. We're gonna 43 00:03:25.090 --> 00:03:28.540 you know, we got it's a B M. We want to align with sales. That's a big part of 44 00:03:28.540 --> 00:03:32.690 what we're trying to do. Okay, I come from sales, so I already felt like we 45 00:03:32.690 --> 00:03:37.750 were pretty aligned, like like, to me, success metrics are the source of 46 00:03:37.750 --> 00:03:43.330 alignment, but Okay, So they went to sales and and said we wanted, like, 47 00:03:43.330 --> 00:03:46.990 treat accountable, special. We wanna do all this great, these great things. And 48 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:52.960 so, of course, every aee wants toe throw some accounts into the hat. Right? 49 00:03:53.340 --> 00:03:58.290 So we've got you know, Fujitsu, You know, the GM and Japan. He doesn't want 50 00:03:58.290 --> 00:04:04.440 to be left out. So we've got Fujitsu and Rocket Tan in the mix we've got. 51 00:04:04.450 --> 00:04:09.510 You know, we had we had done a deal with Anita Retailer. So then we had, 52 00:04:09.510 --> 00:04:14.110 like, five or six retailers in the mix. You know, our biggest rap while he gets 53 00:04:14.110 --> 00:04:17.380 a bunch of picks. But his picks, because he had already, you know, was 54 00:04:17.380 --> 00:04:21.230 everybody he could already get into. So it's all the accounts that he had, you 55 00:04:21.230 --> 00:04:26.390 know, could never get into that. He put in the hat and so we ended up with this 56 00:04:26.390 --> 00:04:31.780 random list of accounts. I call that like the potluck dinner of accounts 57 00:04:31.780 --> 00:04:36.390 selection. Right. You've got a sushi platter. You got 10 cookie trays you 58 00:04:36.390 --> 00:04:42.830 got, you know, cheese ball. And none of it goes together. And and that's what 59 00:04:42.830 --> 00:04:46.450 you're looking at at this table like, Oh, my God. How am I going to make a 60 00:04:46.450 --> 00:04:51.670 decent meal out of all of this junk? And that, I think, unfortunately, was 61 00:04:51.670 --> 00:04:56.780 how our first pilot played out Is that that was that was the account selection, 62 00:04:56.780 --> 00:05:00.000 peace and the next part of it, you know, A B m says you've got to be highly 63 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.260 personalized. You've got to do all this research. You gotta have a really 64 00:05:03.260 --> 00:05:08.590 highly customized offer. So we start grinding away at this list of account 65 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:14.150 creating custom landing page is doing a tremendous amount of research on them. 66 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:19.130 I mean, the landing pages and the data that we put together they were 67 00:05:19.130 --> 00:05:24.360 beautiful. They make me want to cry. They were so good. But you know, what 68 00:05:24.370 --> 00:05:28.960 we got through two or three and we couldn't get our other work done. And I 69 00:05:28.960 --> 00:05:32.840 said no. This was supposed to be something that we tried like. We can't 70 00:05:32.840 --> 00:05:37.740 stop doing what we're doing and ps this. We haven't even proved this work. What 71 00:05:37.740 --> 00:05:42.880 do we So I ended up shutting it down. So that was my first A B M experience. 72 00:05:42.880 --> 00:05:48.840 It was poor account selection over engineered engagement based on what we 73 00:05:48.840 --> 00:05:53.530 thought was relevant to them, not what was actually relevant to them and no 74 00:05:53.530 --> 00:05:58.580 understanding if they were in market or not. And so there you go. We didn't get 75 00:05:58.580 --> 00:06:02.650 a lot out of it, and we spent a lot of time so fast forward, like, why do I 76 00:06:02.650 --> 00:06:08.800 want to be the CMO of a B M platform? If that was my original experience and 77 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:19.310 I would say to me a B m was very was misunderstood as a campaign or you know, 78 00:06:19.310 --> 00:06:25.080 something that you do. It wasn't really understood as just great marketing. And 79 00:06:25.080 --> 00:06:29.480 so one of my first e books that I wrote at six cents was a B M is just good 80 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:33.370 marketing because it starts with data. It starts with segmentation. It starts 81 00:06:33.370 --> 00:06:37.590 with a rich understanding of your audience. And to me, that doesn't mean 82 00:06:37.590 --> 00:06:43.770 asking sales for a list of account. That means me looking at data and 83 00:06:43.770 --> 00:06:47.960 working across the product team and working across sales on Dworkin across 84 00:06:47.960 --> 00:06:53.230 customer success to say What is our market? What is our ideal customer 85 00:06:53.230 --> 00:06:58.240 profile like? That's the rial work, and that's the work that a lot of people 86 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:02.990 want to skip out on. That I think, has to get done for whether you call it 87 00:07:02.990 --> 00:07:07.460 account based or you call it something else just to be successful. So that's 88 00:07:07.460 --> 00:07:11.320 really interesting. I never I mean, I've heard people say that like a B M 89 00:07:11.320 --> 00:07:15.250 is just good marketing. Actually think like demand. Jin's probably more in 90 00:07:15.250 --> 00:07:19.710 that camp for me because demand jin to me, is fairly general. But coming from 91 00:07:19.710 --> 00:07:23.940 the B two c world, I do feel like it's fairly different. I mean, in the B two 92 00:07:23.940 --> 00:07:27.560 c world, your and you know it's like you build a persona to try to just 93 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.970 create a picture of what, who you're targeting, right? You know, you have 94 00:07:30.970 --> 00:07:34.790 different personas for different segments, and then you just market to 95 00:07:34.790 --> 00:07:38.910 the masses and hopefully you can dial down. You know all your ads band and 96 00:07:38.910 --> 00:07:41.990 your your engagement. You. You segment that you try to make it a specifics 97 00:07:41.990 --> 00:07:46.020 possible, but it's still one too many at the best, right? And it's just a 98 00:07:46.020 --> 00:07:49.850 more narrow one too many, but it's still one too many. In this case, 99 00:07:50.340 --> 00:07:55.080 account based marketing is that 11 too few oneto one and it just makes it a 100 00:07:55.080 --> 00:07:57.880 little bit different. Even starting with who exactly you're going for in 101 00:07:57.880 --> 00:08:01.390 the B two B space, you can know exactly who it is you need to contact, which, 102 00:08:01.390 --> 00:08:05.040 for me is a marketer coming from the BBC space. I'm like, Wow, like, Wait, I 103 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:08.510 could know exactly who I need a target, like I confined their email on their 104 00:08:08.510 --> 00:08:11.650 phone number shoot. You could pay other services to get all the data for you, 105 00:08:11.660 --> 00:08:15.680 their address, and it changes to me. I'm like, Well, how does that change 106 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:20.130 how we market if we know who they are already? And then, of course, there's 107 00:08:20.140 --> 00:08:23.740 people organizations like six cents that give you them or data, which is 108 00:08:23.740 --> 00:08:29.630 fun. So how do you knowing that. How do you justify being a different just 109 00:08:29.630 --> 00:08:36.850 being good marketing? So I think that if you think about what great B two B 110 00:08:36.850 --> 00:08:43.299 marketing is, it starts with again an ideal customer profile, which is an 111 00:08:43.299 --> 00:08:43.960 account. 112 00:08:45.040 --> 00:08:49.810 And so what's the dynamics of that account? And there's basic industry, 113 00:08:49.820 --> 00:08:55.670 you know, techno graphic firm A graphic. You know things like that. But you have 114 00:08:55.670 --> 00:09:01.850 to understand who can we even sell to and will be successful with our product? 115 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:06.160 And so that's that's the first step of good marketing. And then what do I What 116 00:09:06.160 --> 00:09:10.190 do I need to know about him? And you talked about building a persona? Well, 117 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:16.140 I have to build 56 maybe 10 personas, because that's how many people are 118 00:09:16.140 --> 00:09:20.430 going to be on a buying team, and I not only need to understand their own 119 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:27.160 individual persona, but how does that persona work with this other persona? 120 00:09:27.740 --> 00:09:34.710 Right. So if I know sales and marketing are going to need to buy six cents, for 121 00:09:34.710 --> 00:09:39.330 example, I need to understand the persona of our marketer outside of 122 00:09:39.330 --> 00:09:44.790 sales, the persona of sales outside of marketing, and then how the persona of 123 00:09:44.790 --> 00:09:49.040 sales and marketing when they try to work together. So you start to get all 124 00:09:49.040 --> 00:09:54.550 these Venn diagrams of persona maps that you have to start to really, 125 00:09:54.560 --> 00:09:59.610 really understand, and that becomes very challenging. The other thing about 126 00:09:59.610 --> 00:10:04.890 B two b buying is they're considered purchases, but it's It's a considered 127 00:10:04.890 --> 00:10:09.880 purchase across all of these different buyers, and they're all consuming 128 00:10:09.880 --> 00:10:15.130 content and coming up with their ideas. And there's a lot of information out 129 00:10:15.130 --> 00:10:18.360 there that's conflicting. And then they're coming back as a team and 130 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:25.100 trying to deconflict and make a decision. And this can go on and on and 131 00:10:25.100 --> 00:10:30.150 on and on. And one person doing research doesn't mean that maybe there 132 00:10:30.150 --> 00:10:34.370 in market or even interested, maybe they're looking to move jobs. So you 133 00:10:34.370 --> 00:10:39.080 have to look at not just the signal or the you know, the footprint of one 134 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:42.460 person. But you have to look at the footprint of that buying team and look 135 00:10:42.460 --> 00:10:48.130 for patterns so it becomes much more complex. Are you saying kind of like be 136 00:10:48.130 --> 00:10:52.380 to be like it's always been good marketing in the B two B space, some 137 00:10:52.380 --> 00:10:55.990 doing it better than others, but what we're calling account based marketing 138 00:10:55.990 --> 00:10:59.780 is almost like just an evolution of what already was good marketing and b 139 00:10:59.780 --> 00:11:06.910 two b. No, I think that account based marketing is should just be good 140 00:11:06.920 --> 00:11:11.530 marketing and should just be the de facto standard. However, unfortunately 141 00:11:11.530 --> 00:11:18.510 ah lot of B two b marketing grew up on like a marketing automation solution, 142 00:11:18.520 --> 00:11:26.340 and a marketing automation solution was designed. Thio if you look at hub spots 143 00:11:26.340 --> 00:11:30.930 whole model right, which all and all this stuff was built in the nineties so 144 00:11:30.930 --> 00:11:35.360 fine it worked in the nineties, right? We just We're getting email. We didn't 145 00:11:35.740 --> 00:11:40.670 Pottery Barn wasn't we weren't on Pottery Barn's list. And so what would? 146 00:11:40.670 --> 00:11:46.280 What we did was we'd create content. People would want to consume our 147 00:11:46.280 --> 00:11:51.050 content. The exchange for getting our great content was for them to give us 148 00:11:51.050 --> 00:11:55.430 their email so we could have them on our database, right, so that, like the 149 00:11:55.430 --> 00:12:01.860 core of a marketing automation platform, is a contact database, right? So then 150 00:12:01.870 --> 00:12:06.560 we can, you know, we can get him in our database, and then we can email them, 151 00:12:07.040 --> 00:12:10.310 and as things got more a little more advanced, we said, Okay, well, we're 152 00:12:10.310 --> 00:12:14.820 going to score this contact or this lead. And if they go to our pricing 153 00:12:14.820 --> 00:12:21.550 page or they open an email like six points, three points, two points. But 154 00:12:21.550 --> 00:12:27.230 the challenge is that marketing that I'll be to be by is not a leader 155 00:12:27.230 --> 00:12:34.530 contact. It's a buying team that scoring is pretty darn arbitrary. It 156 00:12:34.530 --> 00:12:40.850 doesn't pick up enough of the anonymous signal, because today so So we did that 157 00:12:40.850 --> 00:12:45.910 and it worked for a while. But B two B buyers were like onto us. I don't want 158 00:12:45.910 --> 00:12:51.420 to fill out a form I put, you know, Mickey Mouse at a whatever just to get 159 00:12:51.430 --> 00:12:56.860 what I want. But I don't want to get tons of emails. I'm just deleting them. 160 00:12:57.340 --> 00:13:02.080 And because the scoring is arbitrary, we get frustrated with sales, and this 161 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:08.270 creates a friction with sales because sales is account based. They've got a 162 00:13:08.270 --> 00:13:12.290 list of accounts that they have to penetrate the personas in the buying 163 00:13:12.290 --> 00:13:17.520 team. And we're over here throwing a Mickey Mouse at a o. L dot com. And so 164 00:13:17.530 --> 00:13:23.930 I'm somewhat exaggerating to prove a point. But that's like over time that 165 00:13:23.940 --> 00:13:29.110 that's created this huge disconnect. And so I think account based is a 166 00:13:29.110 --> 00:13:35.950 strategy. It's not a tactic. It's not just doing ads, it's it's not just one 167 00:13:35.950 --> 00:13:41.920 toe one, but it's a strategy for marketing and sales. Teoh, a line on 168 00:13:41.920 --> 00:13:44.060 where the best opportunity is 169 00:13:45.140 --> 00:13:51.650 and then marry their precious resource, is wear upto where that opportunity is. 170 00:13:52.040 --> 00:13:57.910 And so a lot of times people think, Oh a B M It's just our top accounts. It 171 00:13:57.910 --> 00:14:02.270 doesn't work in a volume and velocity model. I don't think that's true at all, 172 00:14:02.280 --> 00:14:08.360 because again, volume like it's all about optimizing your time and your 173 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:12.890 resource is so sales has always been account based, right? So they have a 174 00:14:12.890 --> 00:14:19.190 list of accounts that they need to go and penetrate. And so, by marketing, 175 00:14:19.190 --> 00:14:24.350 not being account based, we've created this like Big Divide. And I think with 176 00:14:24.350 --> 00:14:29.180 the inception of a B M, people thought of it as okay, well, for the enterprise 177 00:14:29.180 --> 00:14:33.970 or the big accounts, you know, then we're going to do this kind of special 178 00:14:33.970 --> 00:14:41.610 practice for to me. I think if you truly have a B two B motion meaning 179 00:14:41.610 --> 00:14:48.260 considered purchase buying team, even if you have a volume and velocity model 180 00:14:48.260 --> 00:14:54.690 with like low average selling prices and a short sale cycle. You still want 181 00:14:54.690 --> 00:14:59.000 to be optimizing that. And so what you want to be doing is actually flushing 182 00:14:59.010 --> 00:15:05.620 out poor fit accounts, flushing out accounts that aren't ready and 183 00:15:05.620 --> 00:15:10.770 marketing handling those potentially as digitally as you know as digitalis 184 00:15:10.770 --> 00:15:17.210 possible so that you Onley surface up the best accounts to sales. And so what 185 00:15:17.210 --> 00:15:22.460 you want to do is look at all of these different segments and say, What's the 186 00:15:22.460 --> 00:15:26.730 A S P S and cycle times that are ideal for this segment? And how do we 187 00:15:26.730 --> 00:15:32.140 optimize our buying motion to progress those accounts and buying teams through 188 00:15:32.140 --> 00:15:36.360 that? And it's going to be different depending on those different motions. 189 00:15:36.940 --> 00:15:40.890 Makes sense. I mean, it seems like sales has kind of been on on par with 190 00:15:40.890 --> 00:15:44.920 where this needed to go a long time ago. Marketings finally just catching up 191 00:15:44.930 --> 00:15:48.900 market is finally waking up to the fact that hey, maybe we should target the 192 00:15:48.900 --> 00:15:52.240 people that are, like actually a good fit for us instead of marketing to 193 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:57.420 everybody and then doing their best to sort through everybody toe give sales a 194 00:15:57.420 --> 00:16:01.370 little something, but sales never really liked it So it makes a lot of 195 00:16:01.370 --> 00:16:05.200 sense now one of the big things that I've noticed coming over from the BBC 196 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:08.320 world. And it's funny I say be to see because we talked about this just 197 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:12.920 previously in our little pre are pre call interview just before we jumped on 198 00:16:12.930 --> 00:16:18.280 about a part you mentioned in your book, you actually talked about 11 different 199 00:16:18.280 --> 00:16:23.870 key factors that anybody should have in there. They're a BM tech stack, and one 200 00:16:23.870 --> 00:16:27.690 of those were customer data platforms or C. D. P s like everybody should have 201 00:16:27.690 --> 00:16:31.750 this built into their A B M tech stack, and it's still relatively new to me. 202 00:16:31.750 --> 00:16:35.450 Maybe it's because I wasn't working at, like a really big B two C company, like 203 00:16:35.450 --> 00:16:38.950 a target or WalMart, where they have these massive databases full of 204 00:16:38.950 --> 00:16:42.640 customer and we all know targets famous for they're crazy targeting with their 205 00:16:42.640 --> 00:16:45.970 ads right, because they know so much about their customers. But this is 206 00:16:45.970 --> 00:16:49.890 still new to me regarding CDP. So tell me, tell me a little bit about that and 207 00:16:49.890 --> 00:16:56.150 how it kind of becomes the core of your tech stack and why, why? It's important. 208 00:16:57.140 --> 00:17:00.520 So you know as we were talking about earlier. I don't know if you caught 209 00:17:00.520 --> 00:17:07.960 like this. The word CDP has some hair on it because it does potentially 210 00:17:07.970 --> 00:17:11.650 indicate that you have to be a huge company. And it does come originally 211 00:17:11.650 --> 00:17:17.880 from the B to C space. But the reason that I use that term is I couldn't find 212 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:25.569 a better one. And we saw in our market when we looked at the intent data, we 213 00:17:25.569 --> 00:17:31.360 saw that CDP was a critical term that our audience was looking for. And so we 214 00:17:31.360 --> 00:17:35.670 thought it made sense to sort of use that to describe this data foundation. 215 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:41.780 But when you think about what, um, I really talking about well, we were just 216 00:17:41.780 --> 00:17:47.980 describing the hairball. That is be to be buying that Venn diagram of all 217 00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:53.500 these different personas and how they overlap and what accounts are the best 218 00:17:53.500 --> 00:18:00.410 fit for us and the fact that 90% 90% of the buying journey is anonymous and 219 00:18:00.410 --> 00:18:04.690 people aren't filling out forms, so they're not known. So our seer, you 220 00:18:04.690 --> 00:18:08.720 know only 13% of sales and marketers have any confidence in their data. 221 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:11.670 That's in their crm and map. 222 00:18:12.940 --> 00:18:18.350 So all of a sudden, you know, what do we do to start to unwind this hairball? 223 00:18:19.040 --> 00:18:23.400 And that's what I'm talking about with the CDP is you need to be able to bring 224 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:27.150 your data. No, even if it's shitty and everyone's is shitty, so don't Oh, I'm 225 00:18:27.150 --> 00:18:33.080 PG 13. Just so the audience knows eso, you know, just bring what you have. You 226 00:18:33.080 --> 00:18:38.190 need to be able to bring that it needs to be able to be cleansed. It needs to 227 00:18:38.190 --> 00:18:44.280 be enriched so the CDP has to be able to have access to third party data 228 00:18:44.280 --> 00:18:49.870 Techno graphic firm A graphic. To be able to enrich that data, you need to 229 00:18:49.870 --> 00:18:55.390 bring known data as well as anonymous data. So be able to de anonymized like 230 00:18:55.390 --> 00:19:00.830 things like Web traffic on bring in third party intent and even second 231 00:19:00.830 --> 00:19:05.460 party intent, which would be like G to crowd and things like that. You need to 232 00:19:05.460 --> 00:19:12.430 be able to bring in as much data as you can and get a 360 degree view or a 233 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:18.870 unified account profile so that you can start to segment segmentation, being 234 00:19:18.870 --> 00:19:24.510 able to slice and dice and look at a new account segment of 5000 or 2000 or 235 00:19:24.510 --> 00:19:30.020 1000. Show me all of the accounts that air researching my competitors or on my 236 00:19:30.020 --> 00:19:35.920 competitors today, that air in market. Wouldn't you want to know that if you 237 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:42.210 just want Forrester Wave? Yeah. You want to know? Yeah, absolutely. When I 238 00:19:42.210 --> 00:19:47.320 read in your book like that, you were pumping an intent dead. I was like, How 239 00:19:47.320 --> 00:19:52.310 did they know what people are searching for? It was like, What magic is this? 240 00:19:52.320 --> 00:19:55.170 I'm like, are you kidding? Like, I'd love to know what people are searching 241 00:19:55.170 --> 00:19:59.290 for because, as you know, I mean being I've worked a lot with the AdWords and 242 00:19:59.290 --> 00:20:04.340 Google, but, like, we all know that, like, that's why AdWords in S. E o were 243 00:20:04.340 --> 00:20:08.410 so popular is because if you could target people at certain points of the 244 00:20:08.420 --> 00:20:11.680 their intent more than just interrupting them where you don't even 245 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.510 know where they're at their intent around your product than you're likely 246 00:20:15.510 --> 00:20:18.510 to get a high r a y out of those buys. Now, of course, on Google, sometimes 247 00:20:18.510 --> 00:20:22.830 it's it's gotten a little bit more expensive than it's worth. So getting 248 00:20:22.830 --> 00:20:26.360 that intent is really really key. One thing. And when I think about when it 249 00:20:26.360 --> 00:20:30.260 comes to see DPS, though, is that before whenever I considered buying I 250 00:20:30.260 --> 00:20:33.940 mean before calling it a CDP, I was just like, Well, it's a CRM. It's just 251 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:38.630 that a CDP is like a CRM with data already in it. And I'm like, Well, you 252 00:20:38.630 --> 00:20:42.930 can go and buy see around with data already in it. It's something new to me 253 00:20:42.930 --> 00:20:46.600 is before all every place ever worked. It's like, Well, you have the data that 254 00:20:46.600 --> 00:20:49.940 the company already has, you know, because people filled out forms. In the 255 00:20:49.940 --> 00:20:53.740 past, you've had customers. But in the B two b world, I'm finding there's just 256 00:20:53.740 --> 00:20:57.140 a plethora of information where you can just go and buy the information. Of 257 00:20:57.140 --> 00:21:01.790 course, you could be were able to buy. Listen, uh, be to Seaworld too, But 258 00:21:01.790 --> 00:21:05.430 it's different because here you can actually find firms, firms that certain 259 00:21:05.430 --> 00:21:09.250 sizes firms that have hit certain milestones, maybe they've raised money. 260 00:21:09.260 --> 00:21:14.010 Maybe they've hired a new CMO right, which is how sales for us, like, 261 00:21:14.020 --> 00:21:17.210 thought they would be a good idea to send you something right. But all these 262 00:21:17.210 --> 00:21:21.590 different data points It's a little a little bit different, I think, on the B 263 00:21:21.590 --> 00:21:24.350 two B side, where there's just more data and you can call them and it's not. 264 00:21:24.360 --> 00:21:28.040 Most of this data is public, so it's not creepy to like or maybe not so 265 00:21:28.040 --> 00:21:30.310 creepy to reach out to them when they've reached some of these 266 00:21:30.310 --> 00:21:34.180 milestones. When you work with six tents, doesn't like come with all that 267 00:21:34.180 --> 00:21:38.620 data intact, or do you help you work with people to be like Okay, there's a 268 00:21:38.620 --> 00:21:41.830 couple different places where we can get your data? Let's let's figure out 269 00:21:41.830 --> 00:21:46.420 which ones work best for you. I mean, I just think the way you described it is 270 00:21:46.420 --> 00:21:51.110 genius. It's like a CRM that's already filled right? And so I think that's a 271 00:21:51.110 --> 00:21:56.660 really good way to think about it. We partner with all different third party 272 00:21:56.660 --> 00:22:01.790 data sources because there's not one great one for everything. Some are 273 00:22:01.790 --> 00:22:06.950 better for this. Some are better for that. So we partner with all of them 274 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:12.530 and then have basically a voting algorithm that uses a I to say you know 275 00:22:12.530 --> 00:22:17.200 which one do we feel has the most confidence and that's what we would use 276 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:23.080 for enrichment. We also take all of our customers through a taxonomy exercise. 277 00:22:23.080 --> 00:22:28.990 So part of on boarding is helping them understand their own data and getting 278 00:22:28.990 --> 00:22:32.620 it organized Art I think our product team fondly calls it the data washing 279 00:22:32.620 --> 00:22:37.190 machine. But, you know, being able to bring in that data and have it in a 280 00:22:37.190 --> 00:22:42.700 taxonomy that we can then enrich it, of course, is really important. But then, 281 00:22:42.700 --> 00:22:49.550 kind of where it gets really cool is it's dynamic, right? So So if you think 282 00:22:49.550 --> 00:22:54.810 about a c r a crm you go and put something in or you move something to a 283 00:22:54.810 --> 00:23:02.250 stage, What we're doing is we're always out there because the core of six cents 284 00:23:02.250 --> 00:23:07.400 truly is a big data platform. So we're always out there always on enriching 285 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:12.630 your data, updating your data, and then and so if you build a segment that says 286 00:23:12.630 --> 00:23:16.770 find me companies that look like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know that 287 00:23:16.770 --> 00:23:23.620 segment, you know, show me accounts in market in Canada so I can see if I need 288 00:23:23.620 --> 00:23:29.860 Thio higher anay either. Well, that could be 50 accounts today. You might 289 00:23:29.860 --> 00:23:34.290 run a bunch of ads to get it warmed up, and then it's 100 accounts. So that 290 00:23:34.290 --> 00:23:38.870 segment is always on, always watching for you to kind of give you the 291 00:23:38.870 --> 00:23:43.860 insights that you need to make critical business decisions. So but then what? 292 00:23:44.340 --> 00:23:46.950 Once you have that house in order 293 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.250 and you're doing your segmentation thing, the other thing is you start to 294 00:23:52.250 --> 00:23:56.560 be able to apply predictive intelligence and model. So it's not 295 00:23:56.560 --> 00:24:02.800 just me thinking that you have intent. It's a you know, statistical model that 296 00:24:02.800 --> 00:24:08.120 says, over time, when we see these patterns, a company is in this buying 297 00:24:08.120 --> 00:24:13.780 stage and that could be back tested and and things like that. So theosophy 298 00:24:13.790 --> 00:24:18.670 start to be, you know, the kind you want to take toe Vegas and bet a lot on 299 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:23.780 because it's again, the patterns are playing out, over and over again, right? 300 00:24:23.790 --> 00:24:27.270 And if a company smart they could take all these automated pieces. I mean, 301 00:24:27.270 --> 00:24:31.320 I've I've wondered it myself as I'm pulling, we're a small shop, it sweet 302 00:24:31.320 --> 00:24:35.650 fish media. We have about 25 employees, so not exactly six cents size, I'm sure, 303 00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:40.570 but even then try to pull out account list from crunch base you know, 304 00:24:40.580 --> 00:24:45.870 filtered down to a 200 customers loaded into hub spot. Right? And I'm like, 305 00:24:45.870 --> 00:24:49.350 Well, like, this is good, and I could work this list, but I probably have Ah, 306 00:24:49.540 --> 00:24:53.670 I don't know, probably 90 days to work this list on a campaign. And then I 307 00:24:53.670 --> 00:24:56.290 know the data will be out of date. At some point at someday. I'm gonna have 308 00:24:56.290 --> 00:24:59.450 to refresh this list because I don't know where they're at now. I don't know 309 00:24:59.450 --> 00:25:03.480 who the people are. I don't know if they're out of runway like you just 310 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:07.560 don't know. But that would be the advantage of paying more for a bigger 311 00:25:07.560 --> 00:25:12.830 system. Like Like what if you never have to do a list. It's just criteria 312 00:25:12.830 --> 00:25:19.810 based, right? It's like you asked Alexa, Alexa, I want you know, to you to play 313 00:25:19.810 --> 00:25:25.170 these songs at this time, okay? And it just does it like you don't have toe, 314 00:25:25.540 --> 00:25:30.170 you know, show me accounts that we talked about that this was a real one. 315 00:25:30.170 --> 00:25:35.590 Should we open in office in a particular country we were looking at? 316 00:25:35.600 --> 00:25:40.620 Show me accounts in market in that country. Is it worthwhile? Toe open an 317 00:25:40.620 --> 00:25:44.390 office. There let me know when it is. Let me know when it gets to this number 318 00:25:44.390 --> 00:25:49.380 of accounts. If I'm in a e, show me accounts that Aaron Market Because 319 00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:55.450 today I you know, I've only got my nine hours. I want to know where to focus. 320 00:25:56.140 --> 00:25:59.160 Yeah, And when it comes to, uh, the part you talk about where it's 321 00:25:59.170 --> 00:26:02.750 orchestration, this is what you're talking about is having all the data, 322 00:26:02.750 --> 00:26:06.640 all the segments set. So when it comes to orchestrating and actually utilizing 323 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:10.830 it, it's available. All the data is there. If a marketer wants to go on and 324 00:26:10.830 --> 00:26:14.220 be like, Okay, where do we need to move some people? Where should we be 325 00:26:14.220 --> 00:26:17.720 targeting our ads? The ads could be dynamic based on which part which 326 00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:21.600 people are in which intense stages. And we could turn them off once they've 327 00:26:21.600 --> 00:26:26.100 reached that stage, automatically do something different, like our direct 328 00:26:26.100 --> 00:26:32.150 mail, for example, if we know you're in market, so you're in that in market 329 00:26:32.150 --> 00:26:36.550 buying stage. That means you've gone through a progression of ads and 330 00:26:36.550 --> 00:26:42.050 cadence, you know, an email cadence and we still haven't gotten a meeting, but 331 00:26:42.050 --> 00:26:46.460 you're in market. Oh, my gosh. that is, it is time to send a direct mail 332 00:26:47.140 --> 00:26:50.700 because we know something's going on, so we automatically trigger our direct 333 00:26:50.700 --> 00:26:55.290 mail. Then, since we know once you're in market, there's about the 16 day 334 00:26:55.290 --> 00:27:01.550 window that we need to be able to get a meeting on. DSO we We have a seven 335 00:27:01.550 --> 00:27:06.550 times better response rate and return on our direct mail spend than the 336 00:27:06.550 --> 00:27:11.990 industry average because we use it, you know, at that very specific time. That 337 00:27:11.990 --> 00:27:15.340 would make sense. Why I haven't got any direct mail pieces yet. I'm sure doing 338 00:27:15.340 --> 00:27:18.620 all the research on a B M that I have over the list last month. I'm like, I'm 339 00:27:18.620 --> 00:27:21.900 sure I'm tricking some campaigns. But if their campaigns air set well, I'm 340 00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:25.570 probably not getting any direct mail. I get the ads because they're like, Okay, 341 00:27:25.580 --> 00:27:29.090 Dan's doing some research, but we already know Sweet fish media isn't 342 00:27:29.090 --> 00:27:32.430 quite in our I c. P. So we're probably not going to send him any direct mail 343 00:27:32.430 --> 00:27:36.600 or just go hunting him down on LinkedIn or anything I'm probably given to us. 344 00:27:36.610 --> 00:27:40.730 But to a less sophisticated organization, I would I would be 345 00:27:40.730 --> 00:27:44.900 setting off all the all the Bells because I'm doing all the buying 346 00:27:44.900 --> 00:27:47.200 actions, even though, actually, I'm just doing a lot of research for a 347 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:52.480 podcast series. Just one person. You're not a buying team, and you might not be 348 00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:55.580 the I don't know what your persona is, but you might not be the persona that's 349 00:27:55.580 --> 00:27:59.960 a good fit. And then, depending on your company size, you may you might not be 350 00:27:59.960 --> 00:28:04.830 a fit. So it's the company's nice. It's probably the big one. Yeah, that's why 351 00:28:04.830 --> 00:28:09.180 the fit is so important. So it's smart. I actually just talked to Matt Hines to 352 00:28:09.180 --> 00:28:13.610 about, like, What does it look like bringing in my buddy? Yeah, he was. He 353 00:28:13.610 --> 00:28:18.430 was fun. I talked to him on Friday. We were talking about the overlap of what 354 00:28:18.430 --> 00:28:22.890 was lead generation with a B M. Now because, of course, a B M. And the more 355 00:28:22.890 --> 00:28:25.310 I learned about it, the more I'm like. Okay, if you're in B two B like you 356 00:28:25.310 --> 00:28:28.980 really should be doing a B M. Unless you're like your average annual 357 00:28:28.980 --> 00:28:32.680 contract sizes like really, really small, maybe like less than 1000 or 358 00:28:32.690 --> 00:28:37.390 less than a few 1000 annual annual revenue. Otherwise, A B M should be 359 00:28:37.390 --> 00:28:41.620 your main play. Um, but still, you have people coming in inbound, right? It's 360 00:28:41.620 --> 00:28:44.260 not like we're not posting to social media. It's not like we aren't doing PR. 361 00:28:44.260 --> 00:28:47.950 It's not like we aren't doing all these things out here to provide branding and 362 00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:51.540 air cover and all that kind of good stuff, so people will come inbound and 363 00:28:51.540 --> 00:28:55.200 you still have to learn how to play. Make sure all those inbound people are 364 00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:58.300 properly accounted for. But of course, even better, if you know that person 365 00:28:58.300 --> 00:29:02.540 that comes inbound actually does fill out the form if they're in one of your 366 00:29:02.550 --> 00:29:08.260 one of your accounts, right, versus not yeah, and you're going to treat again 367 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:14.650 that the differences and that this is a key like change management aspect for 368 00:29:14.650 --> 00:29:19.500 account based from lead based, because you're right, the rubber meets the road 369 00:29:19.510 --> 00:29:26.040 with the whether you call it marketing response to an M. D. R SDR, an inbound 370 00:29:26.040 --> 00:29:31.060 response rep. You know, they're used to getting that inbound and then working 371 00:29:31.060 --> 00:29:38.250 that contactar that lead really, that contact our lead is an intense signal 372 00:29:38.260 --> 00:29:42.060 for the broader account, and so what you want and then start to trigger is 373 00:29:42.070 --> 00:29:47.510 we're still thinking of thinking of that inbound as a very strong, intense 374 00:29:47.510 --> 00:29:52.360 signal, but then working the account, not just working the lead, so that 375 00:29:52.360 --> 00:29:56.760 should trigger outreach toe multiple personas that should trigger, you know, 376 00:29:56.760 --> 00:30:00.700 ah ah, full kind of work of that account. And so that's something that 377 00:30:00.700 --> 00:30:04.750 we work a lot with our clients to help them set up as they go on that journey 378 00:30:04.750 --> 00:30:10.870 from purely based to account based. So have 11 final question for you and that 379 00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:15.080 you guys work with a lot of accounts on. You probably see a number of people 380 00:30:15.080 --> 00:30:18.540 that decide not to go with six cents or any of your competitors. They just 381 00:30:18.540 --> 00:30:23.180 decide a B M. We don't think it's for us. What do you think? What's like the 382 00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:26.640 biggest reason that you guys air hearing on like why people are deciding 383 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:32.680 not to go with a B M as a primary strategy for marketing? They're scared. 384 00:30:32.690 --> 00:30:38.590 We actually just did a big study on this and interviewed like a ton of 385 00:30:38.590 --> 00:30:43.320 marketers, and then Matt and I did it more of an informal study. But but the 386 00:30:43.330 --> 00:30:47.780 deep dive that we found was that a lot of it is around the metrics and the 387 00:30:47.780 --> 00:30:52.630 goals of marketing. Marketing is used to measuring themselves and their value 388 00:30:52.630 --> 00:30:57.430 based on an mq l. And so, if you if that's if I'm doing something different 389 00:30:57.430 --> 00:31:02.130 and I'm maybe not generating m que el Zahra different, you know, if I'm 390 00:31:02.130 --> 00:31:08.170 generating a qualified account, what does that mean? How do I measure myself? 391 00:31:08.180 --> 00:31:13.870 Um, I set up to measure that, and then just there's, you know, we've spent all 392 00:31:13.870 --> 00:31:19.350 this time, you know, talking to boards and investors and CEOs about quote 393 00:31:19.350 --> 00:31:25.230 unquote demand generation and this lead based funnel. And so then to be able to 394 00:31:25.230 --> 00:31:29.230 go and say, Actually, it's an account based funnel, and it's kind of the same, 395 00:31:29.230 --> 00:31:34.390 but it's kind of different. And, you know, people just are scared to have 396 00:31:34.390 --> 00:31:38.390 those conversations and and I think we've got to do a better job when I say 397 00:31:38.390 --> 00:31:43.950 we this is This is like a personal thing for me at this point, Um, and I'm 398 00:31:43.950 --> 00:31:50.040 hoping will be part two of of the book or whatever I end up doing is, I think 399 00:31:50.040 --> 00:31:55.860 we have to start Thio, do a better job solidifying two boards and two CEOs 400 00:31:55.860 --> 00:32:02.400 into the investor community. The role in the value of marketing so that when 401 00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:06.980 they look at a CMO who wants to dio account based on is talking about 402 00:32:06.980 --> 00:32:10.650 things like conversion is talking about things like market and product market 403 00:32:10.650 --> 00:32:14.540 fit. They're like, Yeah, that's what we want And so that's that's a big 404 00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:18.850 challenge. I'm game. I'm not retiring yet. I'm excited to take that on. 405 00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:25.990 It was very exciting. And I know with you guys and many others educating 406 00:32:25.990 --> 00:32:31.150 people and writing fantastic books, uh, like yours, the market slowly coming up 407 00:32:31.150 --> 00:32:34.090 to speed. It's kind of like hopefully, I mean, because people can only 408 00:32:34.090 --> 00:32:37.890 continue doing bad things for so long before the results start to speak for 409 00:32:37.890 --> 00:32:43.050 themselves, right? At least doing ineffective marketing. So the people 410 00:32:43.050 --> 00:32:48.090 wanna learn more from you and follow what you're doing online. Where can 411 00:32:48.090 --> 00:32:53.890 they go online toe to connect with you? Sure. So I'm I'm active on LinkedIn. So 412 00:32:53.890 --> 00:32:59.440 hit me up there for sure. I obviously let me know if you're interested in a 413 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:05.570 copy of the book. We want people toe, have this information, and and and I 414 00:33:05.570 --> 00:33:10.940 always like feedback on it every Friday. Actually, Matt and I for see if you're 415 00:33:10.950 --> 00:33:16.300 if you're CMO every Friday, Matt and I work with a group of CMOs. It's about 416 00:33:16.310 --> 00:33:21.830 500 now, and we jam on all kinds of topics, not just a B M. So that's 417 00:33:21.830 --> 00:33:26.330 called the First Sip Club. And so we love toe. Have you part of that tribe? 418 00:33:26.340 --> 00:33:30.720 So Lots of different ways. Lots of waves. Fantastic. Latin Me Thank you 419 00:33:30.730 --> 00:33:34.050 again for joining me on the show today. Thanks, Dan 420 00:33:37.540 --> 00:33:41.510 is the decision maker for your product or service. Abebe Marketer. Are you 421 00:33:41.510 --> 00:33:45.680 looking to reach those buyers through the medium of podcasting? Consider 422 00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:50.650 becoming a co host of B two B growth. This show is consistently ranked as a 423 00:33:50.650 --> 00:33:54.570 top 100 podcast in the marketing category of Apple podcasts, and the 424 00:33:54.570 --> 00:34:00.160 show gets more than 130,000 downloads each month. We've already done the work 425 00:34:00.170 --> 00:34:04.380 of building the audience so you can focus on delivering incredible content 426 00:34:04.390 --> 00:34:10.560 to our listeners if you're interested. Email Logan at sweet fish media dot com.