Sept. 14, 2022

What Common Marketing Belief Do You Disagree With? | Original Research

We spoke with 100 marketing leaders and asked "What’s a commonly held belief in your industry that you passionately disagree with?" In this roundtable discussion Benji, James, and Dan break down the findings.
Discussed in this episode:
Is B2B...

We spoke with 100 marketing leaders and asked "What’s a commonly held belief in your industry that you passionately disagree with?" In this roundtable discussion Benji, James, and Dan break down the findings.
Discussed in this episode:
Is B2B marketing fundamentally different from B2C?
How to truly foster sales & marketing alignment.
Assumption is the mother of all mistakes in marketing.


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Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:17.320 --> 00:00:21.719 It's time for another original research episode. James Dan, welcome in. I 3 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:27.039 know a few weeks ago we had talked about trends, specifically the most overrated 4 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:31.719 trends in B two B. Today we're gonna tackle beliefs and the beliefs and 5 00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:36.840 B two B marketing that we passionately disagree with. It's gonna get spicy, 6 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:42.320 so spicy. I think of the differences between trends and beliefs like this. 7 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:47.079 So I think beliefs are the way people think of B Two B marketing broadly. 8 00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:50.560 So it's a habit of trust around like what works and what doesn't. 9 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:54.840 Examples of this would be like emotional marketing, which will probably talk about today. 10 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:58.359 That's bigger than a medium, but it's something that we should be infusing, 11 00:00:58.359 --> 00:01:02.960 emotional marketing into anything we do. Versus trends, you start to get 12 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:06.560 pretty specific. So then we're talking about a B M, email marketing, 13 00:01:06.599 --> 00:01:11.599 direct mail, and so that's it's it's exact tactics and I'd say clearly your 14 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:15.719 beliefs impact your strategy and what trends you pay attention to. But in and 15 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:19.000 of themselves beliefs may seem slightly less tactical. So the exact question that we 16 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:23.760 asked a hundred B Two b marketing leaders was this. What's a commonly held 17 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:32.640 belief in your industry that you passionately disagree with? And this question actually is 18 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:37.040 something that the three of us have talked about recently. Dan, you came 19 00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:42.760 back with some spicy takes after being gone for a few months and uh, 20 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:46.400 let's talk about that first, because it's been a discussion. You guys were 21 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:49.840 just together in Dallas and and talking about this in the last couple of weeks. 22 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:55.840 So what is a commonly held belief that you passionately disagree with? Dan, 23 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:59.120 you go first here. You CAN'T BE IN B two B marketing long 24 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:04.120 without somebody just hating on B two B for some reason, and it's not 25 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:07.040 usually coming from the B two C side. It's coming from B two B 26 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:12.080 marketers ourselves. Like I hadn't been to the job long when I heard B 27 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:16.919 two B stands for boring. To boring you're like what and honestly, and 28 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:20.280 I've just kind of gone with it for two years, like yeah, we 29 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:21.919 need to be better, we need to be more like B Two c. 30 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:24.879 But honestly, when I think back to even some of my earliest inspiration in 31 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:30.919 marketing, it actually came from B two B, because B two B can 32 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:34.840 accomplish so much more than B two C can, for a lot of different 33 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:38.599 reasons. But let me break down a few reasons why I'm actually starting to 34 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:43.120 shift to be like B Two B is greater than B two c. One 35 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:46.919 of those just being you can spend more time building relationships because you know who 36 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:51.599 the account is, you know who works there, you know it's Susie and 37 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:55.039 adobe, and you can reach out to her. She's probably like a CMO 38 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:59.159 or marketing director, like. You can actually send her a D M and 39 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:01.000 actually have her on a podcast or sent her a gift, like. You 40 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:06.599 can actually afford to do more because you can reach after fewer accounts. You 41 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:10.680 can actually custom tailor at like and actually do better marketing because you have way 42 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:14.479 more data available. You can't do that and B two C, and B 43 00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:16.759 two C you can just hope, hope to spray, like pray and spray 44 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:21.120 that it gets to the right people and hope they come to you, and 45 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:23.439 that's good. I like to build demand too. You can do that and 46 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:25.919 B two B and still reach after the specific person. Like you can have 47 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:30.360 so many more plays available, and I love that. B Two B is 48 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:34.400 also a little bit more educational focused. And in B two see they're very 49 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:38.319 much about like the branding and emotions. But that's not necessarily a one up 50 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:39.840 on B two C. all of that plays in to be to be, 51 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:43.479 because we all know we're talking to people, and that's honestly some of the 52 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:47.319 biggest insights we got from this report, saying that we're dealing with people, 53 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:50.840 we can be just as creative to be to see, and I'm like, 54 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:54.120 Amen, let's do it. That's I agree. But B two B also 55 00:03:54.159 --> 00:04:00.319 has major advantages that be two se doesn't have. So for that reason, 56 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:01.879 over the last couple of weeks I'm like, Dang, I want the B 57 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:03.879 Two b wagon. I need to get a big old t shirt and a 58 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:08.240 hat that just says B two B and nothing else. And for those who 59 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:11.719 know, they know, and for those who don't didn't matter because they're not 60 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:15.360 part of my crew. I love what you said while we were at the 61 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:18.959 conference last week, Dan. You said you know B two B. It's 62 00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:23.720 like it's like really sitting at the adult table and both you and I, 63 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:28.879 Dan had experience. And B two C, and it's freaking hard and you 64 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:31.759 don't have the resources at your disposal oftentimes that you do. And B Two 65 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:36.160 B you're not selling higher ticket deals, so you can invest more. The 66 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:42.040 deals are obviously more complex, they're more buyers involved. It's not just a 67 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:45.519 single decision maker like it typically is in B two C. you've got to 68 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:48.439 figure out how do you frame your message so that it's attractive to the C 69 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:51.800 I, oh, but also to the CFO, because they've got to they've 70 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:55.959 got to be engaged in the decision making process for what you know, a 71 00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:00.839 particular product that you're selling. There's complexity to it and as you were explaining 72 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:01.920 it, you're like, you know, it's it's like sitting at the adult 73 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:06.079 table, and that really resonated with me and I think when you when you 74 00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:11.720 think about that added complexity, the nuance that comes with B two B, 75 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.079 it's an elevated view of B two B as opposed to just looking at it 76 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:19.519 like Oh, it's boring, to Boring Ho Um, b twoc is so 77 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:23.480 much cooler. It's, like you also pointed out, you're like there are 78 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:28.279 a lot of brands and B two C are that are not sexy. Like 79 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:31.160 we look at Tom Shoes and we look at like the best examples. Yeah, 80 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:35.639 like the best examples of B two C, right, like AIRBNB and 81 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:40.839 like all of these like iconic brands that are B two C. But, 82 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:43.480 like you were, like, I just want to like go to the bottom 83 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:46.759 shelf at a grocery store and be like you see this bag of sugar, 84 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:51.560 like that's B two C two, and like that. That's actually the bulk 85 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:57.360 of B two C and it's not all sexy and interesting like the iconic B 86 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:01.839 twoc brands are. But the iconic B two B brands are really sexy too, 87 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:08.600 and we're bringing sexy back, baby, we're bringing sexy back. A 88 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:12.240 lot of the best marketers and B two B came from B to C and 89 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:15.439 it's because they freaking crushed it and B two C. and what did they 90 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:19.360 do? They started teaching other marketers. Are Selling what they learned to other 91 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:24.079 companies and thereby made it up into B two B. and that's why it's 92 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:27.120 the adult tables, because usually they killed it and B to see Bam, 93 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:30.519 and now they're playing at a higher level, which usually has freaking way better 94 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:32.199 margins. You know, they're like, oh wait, I can make more 95 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.560 money and B two B, Boom, they're at the level. Not that 96 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:38.920 you know. B Two B companies always charge a lot of money, but 97 00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:42.279 usually, you know, it's you're usually dealing with higher, harder to hire 98 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:46.120 margins. Yeah, yeah, so, okay. The question that we had 99 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:49.480 asked all these these hundred marketers. What's a commonly held belief that in your 100 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:53.600 industry you passionately disagree with? So let's jump into some findings, because I 101 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:56.040 think this is so good. B Two B over B two C. Yes, 102 00:06:56.160 --> 00:07:00.519 absolutely. What did the hundred marketers say? So this first finding, 103 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:01.519 I would I would sum it up this way. Right, B two B 104 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:06.920 marketers are frustrated with people thinking that B Two b marketing is fundamentally different from 105 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:12.879 B two C marketing. What's interesting about this is right before we re press 106 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:17.800 record, actually think we don't agree with that in some ways, because, 107 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:23.600 James, you actually did a great job right there of outlining how B two 108 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:27.680 B is slightly different from B to c, whether it's the buying committee, 109 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:30.360 there's all sorts of different ways. Even the approach you would take in a 110 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:35.279 B two C situation versus B two B situation. In marketing there are nuances. 111 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:39.639 So but we heard that a lot. That just that frustration. B 112 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:44.079 Two B marketing isn't fundamentally different from B to c. So it's more of 113 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:48.360 an annoyance about this idea that brands are marketing to businesses when the reality is 114 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:53.560 that they're marketing to people, and that I can get behind. So while 115 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:57.480 it may not actually be like we're we're kind of saying two separate things. 116 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:01.839 They're right, but but I get the hard of that and want for more 117 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.160 human connection and that being the concern of of a lot of marketers today in 118 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:09.560 the B two B space. So let me read some responses from the survey 119 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:13.079 that reveal how several marketers feel about this B two B verse B Two C 120 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:16.360 situation. We heard, I disagree, that B two B prospects have different 121 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:20.319 expectations from B two C prospects. That's a big one. We could talk 122 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:24.560 about that for a while because we were like, Oh, this is good 123 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:28.000 enough for B two be, but they're not comparing you to other B two 124 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:31.079 B companies. They're just comparing you to all the ways they're being marketed to. 125 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:33.200 Right. So there's a there's a way of thinking there that we need 126 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:37.919 to shift. I think everyone and B Two b really thinks very much that 127 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:41.720 B two B is kind of its own animal, when it's actually very similar. 128 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:43.159 That's kind of what we were saying before. Another response. At the 129 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:46.799 end of the day, B two B marketers are people and they consume information 130 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:52.240 and content and messaging the same way all consumers do. You don't have to 131 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:54.600 communicate to them differently. So you guys are hearing sort of the same thing 132 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:58.879 iterated over and over again. I have probably seven eight of these examples pulled 133 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:03.080 up here. That was probably our our number one key finding from asking this 134 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:07.720 question. What do you guys think about that? That that fundamental frustration of 135 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:11.759 the differences between B two B and B two C, or the lack thereof. 136 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:15.799 I think B two B is better at content marketing. Like how many, 137 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:20.879 how many art blogs, podcasts, Youtube channels are put out there that 138 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:24.679 you take from a company? On B two C, Red Bull, I 139 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:26.840 know people subscribe to it, but it's kind of like, okay, I 140 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:30.279 can think of a few, but it's it's pretty rare. Like I'm I 141 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.919 don't subscribe to any B two C. I know people do, but I 142 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:35.679 think B two B kills it. On B Two B marketing, I think 143 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:39.039 the focus and B two B is obviously education. It leans more education. 144 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:43.440 You're you're dealing with decision makers and companies that are trying to hone their craft 145 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:46.679 and get better at their job and accelerate their career and, you know, 146 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:52.879 growing their responsibilities at work and and so naturally, you know, I tend 147 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:58.320 personally just to gravitate toward more helpful content. I still like the occasional, 148 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:03.720 like entertaining episode. I like watching Mr Beasts do something really stupid. That 149 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:07.559 why am I watching this guy like bury himself alive for forty eight hours? 150 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:11.559 I have no clue, but I enjoy that too. But it's not actually 151 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:15.120 helping me get better. And so when I think about like, am I 152 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:20.279 using my time purposefully, I oftentimes feel like I am when I'm consuming content 153 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:24.480 created by a B two B company versus a BBC brand that's just trying to 154 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:30.240 catch as many eyeballs as possible because they have to reach everybody. They have 155 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:33.679 to reach the masses because of the nature of their business model, and so 156 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:37.840 it can be very entertaining. I would argue that it's a hell of a 157 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:43.600 lot harder to create crazy, entertaining content than it is to create super helpful 158 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:48.840 content in a niche uh, and I think you're seeing that and the fact 159 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:52.120 that Mr Beast just keeps leveling up the game. He's spending millions of dollars 160 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:58.000 now on his youtube videos because it's it's harder and harder to you're competing with 161 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:03.879 Netflix, you're competing with all of these media brands that have billions of dollars 162 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:07.960 to invest in their content. Anyway, I'll give up my rant here, 163 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:11.759 but that's what I'm thinking as I as I hear you list of off Benji. 164 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:15.399 Yeah, one of the other responses we heard that I think falls into 165 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:18.240 the same categories, like the tone of Voice of B two B. Content 166 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:20.240 doesn't have to be formal, and I wanted to highlight that one for a 167 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:24.120 second because I so agree and I think we're seeing a pivot, especially in 168 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:28.320 a lot of the companies we would probably all name as the ones that we 169 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:31.039 pay most attention to in the B two B space, how they interact on 170 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:35.159 Linkedin, the type of social content they push out. There's this ability to 171 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:39.759 like also infuse humor. You're still looked at as you have people in your 172 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:41.759 organization that reviewed as thought leaders and they're still, you know, giving that 173 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:46.759 educational content. But there was this like buttoned up feeling that I got when 174 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:48.759 I first came into B two B, where it was like, Oh, 175 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:54.240 you gotta have everything in order and you better like talk in a certain way 176 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:58.200 and like that's, honestly, what got the rep for me to be of 177 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:01.799 like being stiff or being boring in the first place, and we've come a 178 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:05.240 long way from that. So I think we're highlighting like that transformation that's taken 179 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:09.159 place. That's been awesome to see. Yeah, and when you think about 180 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:11.519 that, Benji right, it makes sense that there would be a reticence, 181 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:18.320 hesitancy to be more open in your communication, to to let your hair down 182 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.039 a bit, because the stakes are higher. Right, you're selling a six 183 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:26.440 figure deal to a CT O, that matters more than when you're selling a 184 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:30.600 six dollar pair of socks and you're and you're the stance brand, like they 185 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:33.759 can be a lot more loose with what they're doing because the stakes are lower. 186 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:37.799 So it makes sense how B two B marketers got there. The stakes 187 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:41.159 are much higher, the deal sizes are bigger, you've got to make sure 188 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:45.759 you don't piss off seventeen people instead of just making sure that you know the 189 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.480 thirty eight year old dad who's buying the pair of socks isn't you know, 190 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.240 likes what you're saying. You now got to a piece more people. So 191 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:56.320 I get how it's gotten there. I'm glad to see the pendulum swinging back 192 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:58.919 to say no, no, no, wait a minute, these are still 193 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:03.159 humans and and they want to be marketed to like they're being marketed to in 194 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:07.559 other parts of their life. We don't need to be so stiff and rigid, 195 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:09.279 and I think you're seeing that from a lot of the top brands and 196 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:15.320 B Two b today. One of my early inspirations about over ten years ago 197 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:18.519 was mail chip. Remember, if you remember, like mail chip actually used 198 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:20.799 to be more fun than it is now. It's become way more formal, 199 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:24.639 but man, back in it was fun. It had a freaking huge monkey 200 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:28.679 on the website right, and now it's just reduced to the logo. But 201 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:31.080 like they had these fun guides. They were designed. They're putting out coloring 202 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:35.279 books with mail chimps in it, and it was just the email marketing software. 203 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:37.279 All the rest of them were boring. There is one place in the 204 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:41.279 UI where it's like you could measure, like how big your email was and 205 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:43.919 if it got too big, like a monkey's arm with the finger was kind 206 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:46.799 of stretching, stretching, stretch, and then it would break and like blood 207 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:50.240 out, like too far, too fun. I'm like it's that kind of 208 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:54.799 stuff and it B two B tool or yeah, it selling. They're selling 209 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:58.519 B two B and being used by marketers that like it can be fun, 210 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:01.080 because we're all people having fun or doing work. I think you can add 211 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:03.840 some delight into it. Now I'm seeing stuff like that all the time, 212 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:07.960 like Asana has like a little unicorn shoot out of the screen. Ever you 213 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:11.360 complete a task and you're like, why not have the Unicorn shoot out of 214 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:13.639 the screen, like it's a part of product, could be part of marketing, 215 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.480 and I'm glad that mail SHIMP's had a heavy influence on this kind of 216 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:20.159 stuff. And now here we are, like twelve years later, and sweet 217 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:22.080 fish is trying to be like the opinion epitome of this too, since we're 218 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:30.480 named after candy. Essentially, we're trying. We're over here trying B two 219 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:37.960 B growth. Will be right back, Dan is. You looked over these 220 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:41.120 findings. What else really stood out to you, man? So something a 221 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:46.159 lot of marketers are still talking about, and this has been an ongoing conversation 222 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:50.799 for years now, is around sales and marketing alignment, right, and that 223 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.799 kind of makes sense to me why people are still talking about it. Like 224 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.879 sales not getting marketing, marketing not getting sales, there being a misunderstanding of 225 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:03.399 WHO's who's risk possible, for what? Is Marketing's job just to serve sales 226 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:09.000 with leads? Is Marketing job over once the lead goes to sales? Like 227 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:13.799 all these different things, and it makes sense because there's different skill sets at 228 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.399 play, different ways of viewing the world. What is true, what is 229 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.320 good, what is what is beautiful? Right, they just have a different 230 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:24.840 perception of reality, but at the same time they have to learn to work 231 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:30.159 together to accomplish the end objective of increasing revenue. So I've always thought about 232 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:33.960 it of like marketing doing a handoff but still serving it all the way through, 233 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.639 and a lot of marketers are feeling similarly. Like the lead, a 234 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.720 lot a lot of people mentioned, like marketing isn't done once the lead comes 235 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:43.720 in the door. The one set to sales specifically, but there's still a 236 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:48.000 lot of misconception around what the relationships should look like. So conversations are still 237 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:52.799 being had and it's still a big misconception in B two B. It's interesting 238 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:56.320 because I'm I think, with all the work we've done to like unify sales 239 00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:00.399 and marketing and like have this revenue umbrella and and as I talk on B 240 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:04.080 two B growth, interview episodes with those outside of sweet fish and just like 241 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.759 what are you doing to unify because it's such a hot bun issue, like 242 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:11.799 on Linkedin, there's all like there's a constant conversation around it. I think 243 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:17.519 we're starting to see a way forward and a lot of that does come down 244 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:19.879 to just like what are recurring conversations we can have in questions we can be 245 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.159 asking of each of those kind of the sales function and the marketing function. 246 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:26.960 That just calls us back, like you said, Dan, two revenue, 247 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:30.399 but calls us back into some some unifying like this is how these handoffs worker, 248 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:34.279 this is and like the more that that just becomes a well oiled machine. 249 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:37.960 Yeah, I mean it's clearly better for the organization. It's funny that 250 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:42.360 we've ever thought of sales and marketing so opposed to each other or so so 251 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:47.320 at friction with each other, because if you don't have both, you you're 252 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.039 kind of screwed. So I think that's a that's a big time one. 253 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:52.480 Yeah, anything you want to add to that, James, because the revenue 254 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:57.120 team is a bit big for us. Yeah, yeah, I think unifying 255 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:03.320 our sales and marketing team to the revenue umbrella has has been huge, I 256 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:08.799 think partly because I am a marketing driven CEO. So having hosted B two 257 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:14.559 B growth for a good jillion episodes getting the company off the ground and like 258 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:17.039 just trying to talk to as many B two B marketers as I can, 259 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:22.279 and naturally I think I lean more towards understanding the value of marketing and so 260 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:26.400 in the way we have set up our budgets, like we have a larger 261 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:30.400 marketing team than we do a sales team. So we have a very different 262 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:36.720 vibe here at sweet fish and and I think a much deeper respect for marketing 263 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:41.240 at sweet fish than a lot of other organs do. But having having the 264 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:42.960 sales and marketing team, we need to do a better job of this, 265 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:47.440 honestly. But creating more I'm not going to say the word synergy here, 266 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:52.359 creating more experiences where both are, you know, our podcast strategists are what 267 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:56.200 we call our sales team and the folks on our marketing team are interacting and 268 00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:00.759 talking together. Like one of the rocks that we had, our quarterly rocks 269 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:07.960 for Emily on our marketing team was to have several conversations with our sales team, 270 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:11.799 with our account management team and with our producers are, you know, 271 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:15.720 client facing folks on the on the ground that are working on shows day to 272 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:19.200 day. We're having her talk to them to figure out, like, what 273 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:25.079 are some insights we can pull from what you're actually experiencing? Our sales team, 274 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:27.400 like what what are you experiencing? What are the conversations that you're having 275 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:32.559 on the ground that we can learn from? UH, in marketing, we 276 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:36.960 we just weren't that that wasn't happening naturally and so we made it a rock 277 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:41.240 to try to break down that barrier and have some more of that free flowing 278 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:45.319 conversation. We're going to try to structure our team meetings. I've been working 279 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:48.240 with Katill on our team to get something scheduled so that we can have both 280 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:52.599 teams on a call for an hour every other week talking through some of the 281 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:57.319 challenges that we're both facing, because there's just a lot more opportunities, whenever 282 00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:02.319 we create that shared space, to be able to talk through the issues together, 283 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:06.480 as opposed to fighting them in silos like like I think most organizations do. 284 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:08.200 One of the things, Benji, that I wanted to get to on 285 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:11.960 this was, you know, we're talking through these insights and what we found 286 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:17.000 from this research, but you know, one of the most helpful parts of 287 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:19.039 these episodes, I think, is when we get to the actual recommendations and 288 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:23.359 like what do we think brands should be doing as a result of kind of 289 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:27.839 what we're uncovering in this research? And one of the things that struck me 290 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:33.400 was it feels a little bit Buzzworthy, but I think we've gotta if you're 291 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:37.079 not already doing this, if you're not a progressive brand that's kind of on 292 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:41.519 on the edge, and there's a lot of brands that I think are already 293 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:45.400 doing this, but if you're not, you need to start approaching your marketing 294 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:51.079 uh in an emotional and human centered way. I think human centered. You 295 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:53.880 know, our friends at bomb bomb wrote a book human centered communication, and 296 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:57.920 you hear that talked about a lot, but I think the more we can 297 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:03.200 approach marketing and this human centered, more emotional way, I think the better 298 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.119 your marketing is going to resonate with your buyers. And so in question ten 299 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:14.200 of this survey, most marketers claimed that being human is the most underrated marketing 300 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:17.160 tactic. So when we asked about, you know, what's the most underrated 301 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:19.960 marketing tactic, they said being human was that tactic, which thought was really 302 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:23.960 interesting. And then in question for marketers are interested, we found out that 303 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:30.440 marketers are interested in human behavior and psychology. So marketing to decision makers in 304 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:36.039 business is not that different from marketing to consumers. There are actually a few 305 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:40.039 different ways that we've tried to do this as sweet fish, to bring more 306 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:45.759 humanity by understanding psychology and understanding these different things, like how do we bring 307 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.640 that humanity into what we're doing? And so, obviously podcasting. You know, 308 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:55.440 premise development in in the podcasting process allows you to develop a hook that's 309 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:59.880 actually gonna make somebody want to listen to your show. There it's not just 310 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:03.960 another interview based show. There's a compelling hook. Your P O v is 311 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:08.880 injected into that that premise and somebody's gonna look and go, uh, that's 312 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:14.599 interesting, like they're on a journey to do this or that's like my favorite, 313 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:18.119 you know, show that's outside of B Two b land, like what 314 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:22.920 are they doing to to mimic that style of that show over here in this 315 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.559 show about marketing? So premise development is a is a huge way to inject 316 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:30.160 more of that humanity, just being more thoughtful about how we come up with 317 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.680 the hooks for for our shows. Community groups or something we've tried to do 318 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:38.319 with marketing squads or getting people into smaller groups so that they can actually connect 319 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:44.200 with one another. You've got folks like pavilion uh that do a fantastic job 320 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:48.119 of facilitating community. Peak community is another one. D G MG, which 321 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:52.519 is now exit five, a lot of folks that are trying to build community. 322 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:56.920 I think it taps into that. That's it's a more human centered way 323 00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.759 to do marketing. Um, we tried to take it to the next level 324 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.400 by putting people into more intimate small groups. And then social media. The 325 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:11.359 way we do social is different. We're posting uh comic strips as UH carousels 326 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:15.920 on Linkedin. Um, we're publishing kids books and talking about them on social 327 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:19.279 dance got a kid's book another his second Kid's book is coming out in the 328 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:23.400 next few months. And so the way we do social it's it's gifts, 329 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:30.440 but it's also super helpful videos. It's both things. I don't think pigeonholing 330 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.240 in into one like it's gotta be one type. It can only be helpful. 331 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:37.720 I think the reason I'm resonating with so much of our fine labs content 332 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:42.680 now is because Todd Klasser is taking the points of the really smart points of 333 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:49.200 view of Chris Walker, their CEO, and he's doing funny series like infusing 334 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:53.440 those p O v s into a fresh way of doing B Two b social 335 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.319 content. And then the email. You know, we we really like using 336 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:00.480 videos. We use bomb bomb uh here at sweet ish to send video email 337 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:06.480 to inject more of that humanity when you can see somebody's face communicating messages, 338 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:10.880 just opposed to you know, written text. I've seen the value of that, 339 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:14.839 especially as we've done more video on Linkedin. Even just going to podcast 340 00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:18.720 movement. Three or four months after starting to go heavier with linkedin video, 341 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:22.559 you start to see that like Oh, people actually like recognize me at this 342 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:26.880 conference now because they've been seeing my face in their linkedin feed for three or 343 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:30.960 four months. It's it's pretty wild to actually experience it. But when I 344 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.400 think about seeing, you know, Alex for Mosey or Gary V, when 345 00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:37.960 I like when I the first time I saw Gary V in real life, 346 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:41.640 it just it felt like this out of like out of world experience. It 347 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:44.799 was like, Oh my God, this is a real guy, and I 348 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:47.599 would have thought that about, you know, Jennifer Aniston back in the days 349 00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:49.960 when friends was was big on TV. It's like you think of these folks 350 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:56.720 that are now business content creators as celebrities like we do one of the stars 351 00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:00.440 of friends, because we're now consuming content in our feed, not on the 352 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:06.079 couch in front of a TV like when I did when I was growing up, 353 00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:08.720 and we now get to be the star of the show. If we 354 00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:14.720 have a thoughtful content strategy that allows us to do what we're doing here today 355 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:18.680 right creating long form content. That thing gets chopped up into into short form 356 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:22.319 content. It's humanizing us. It's not just me, it's Dan, it's 357 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:26.039 Benji, it's a variety of folks on our team that are putting out this 358 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:30.000 kind of content and it's helping the brand overall. Yep, I think what's 359 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:32.480 interesting on that one too, and Dan, I wanted to commend you for 360 00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:37.359 something, is when you think of that like emotional, human centered way of 361 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:41.480 doing marketing and just connecting with people, like your use of bomb bomb was 362 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.400 really strategic for me. Well, you're like, okay, it's one thing 363 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:48.759 if I post like, let's say, a micro video or if I have 364 00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:52.200 an opinion and now people see my p O v on Linkedin. It's another 365 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:55.160 thing if someone like comments on that and I respond with like a video. 366 00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:57.400 You know what I mean? Like because now it's okay, I know this 367 00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:03.359 person exists and they're creating content, this person actually cares about me and there's 368 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:06.039 a back and forth that's happening in a different way. When did that kind 369 00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:07.799 of click for you? I mean, I started doing it just because it 370 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.920 was easier, because you want to leave long responses, but typing it all 371 00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:15.640 out, I'm not. I'm already not like the greatest like writer. I'm 372 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.319 okay writing marketing copy, but just giving long explanations and things. I'm like, 373 00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:21.880 I'm just gonna record a quick video and shoot it over, and what 374 00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:23.640 I found is that it would blow people's minds are like, oh my gosh, 375 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.319 you took the time to make this for me and you're like, I'm 376 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.440 lazy. And of course you can communicate way more in video too. So 377 00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:33.680 it's like it felt like it packed way more punched than I expected it to, 378 00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:37.599 and once I started getting a feeling of like how much it impacted people, 379 00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:41.519 I'm like this is a freaking secret weapon and I still do it and 380 00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:44.640 it still blows people's minds. Now I think more people are catching on because 381 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:48.200 I'm getting more video responses back in response to my videos, but it still 382 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:55.000 works remarkably well. Yeah, there's something to be said for just the power 383 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:59.119 of video like across the board, because you could think that you've even on 384 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:02.319 your website, you've answered all the questions that someone might have and now they 385 00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:04.960 can go and they can read about it. But even just infusing somebody's face 386 00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:10.400 on the website to give an answer to a question, it's such a personal 387 00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:14.599 touch that can it just change the way that you do marketing and it puts 388 00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:19.519 a face to everything, which again like the power of that in good communication 389 00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:25.680 and like it's just I don't sleep on it. Like anywhere you can use 390 00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:29.720 video I would be thinking about using video because it's it's such a good personal 391 00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:33.519 touch. Dan, when you're thinking of recommendations based on what we found off 392 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.880 this question. What what would be sort of the thing you'd be thinking about 393 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.400 here, I mean other than going to video, and I'm specifically thinking about 394 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:45.000 how to make B two B growth more video oriented in the future. But 395 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.000 switching from audio production environmental videos a little bit of a lift. So we're 396 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:51.640 still trying to figure that out. So, if I were a company, 397 00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:55.799 I'm trying to sneak video into everything, into the landing page, into the 398 00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:59.240 thank you page and to the emails, into text messages, like the more 399 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:02.759 place I can put my face or the face of my teammates the better. 400 00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:04.400 Hence, on not even on our own website, like we have like a 401 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:08.759 bunch of our teammates pictures instead of stock photos everywhere. It just makes it 402 00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:14.240 more human, right, writing in friendly ways and I always when I write 403 00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:17.200 copy, I try to write to a specific individual that would be in that 404 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:19.319 market, right. So that's an easy way to make things more human. 405 00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:23.119 And just thinking through if you were experiencing this, what would you want to 406 00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:26.240 see? What would you want to read? How would you want to be 407 00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:30.559 treated in this marketing sequence, in this email, in this social post, 408 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:36.240 be the type of marketer that you would want being market marketed to you, 409 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:38.480 right, or do the type marketing you'd want pushed on you? Um, 410 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:42.839 and I think it just goes along way. Yeah, I think for for 411 00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:48.759 me, like this is a such a good question to go. Where are 412 00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:51.960 we assuming things? Whenever you think of beliefs, like just to call us 413 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:55.480 back to the beginning, like what commonly help belief in your industry you passionately 414 00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:59.000 disagree with? To me, it's like, what are the beliefs that I 415 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:03.000 hold right now that I don't even realize are running things like assumptions being the 416 00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:07.799 mother of mistakes, like this is something I think doesn't work. This is 417 00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:10.599 something I see other people doing and like I don't ask questions about them, 418 00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:14.160 just like I would never do that, instead of like being curious, and 419 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:18.839 the best marketers to me are curious, and so like, where are there 420 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:22.240 things that I'm like why do they do it that way, instead of just 421 00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:26.480 like from from the other side watching it, like who can I ask does 422 00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:29.759 that work? What did you learn from trying that? And even on the 423 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:33.599 video side there's people that are ahead of us in the game right, like 424 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.799 who should we be talking to that could lead us to being better in our 425 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:41.240 strategy around video or any other things we've talked about today? To me, 426 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:44.880 it's just like checking myself and going, okay, what are those internal beliefs 427 00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:48.559 that, as a marketer, I've been assuming certain things that that I could 428 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:49.720 change my mind on, and as I do that, I think like it 429 00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:53.319 just makes us better at what we do. Anything else you guys want to 430 00:28:53.319 --> 00:28:59.200 throw in? Is there a belief that maybe you're challenged today to like change 431 00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:03.720 or shift because of this conversation? I'd love to just hear what you guys 432 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:06.519 have to say before we kind of wrap this. James, anything for you? 433 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:11.160 Yeah, I don't know that there's anything necessarily from this. That has 434 00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:15.240 been like a massive, you know, unlock for me. But I think 435 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:18.920 one of our core beliefs and and as we've gone through like Pov Development for 436 00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:23.680 ourselves and we've asked ourselves this question and we've ultimately landed on this idea of 437 00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:29.160 affinity over awareness. I think so much of what we found here, particularly 438 00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:33.640 with like the human centered, like marketers now know like being human centered and 439 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:40.400 like being more human and in your marketing is actually a very underrated tactic and 440 00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:47.359 it's it's something that that should be considered. I think that that reinforces the 441 00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:51.400 belief that we've been talking about a lot, which is affinity matters a lot 442 00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:55.480 more than awareness. Like, yes, you want to go get more awareness, 443 00:29:55.519 --> 00:29:59.319 but you want to go get more awareness for something that people are actually 444 00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:03.160 going to and want to engage with, and I think just going and chasing 445 00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:07.279 more awareness, which we see a lot of B two B brands doing, 446 00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:12.559 without first having something of substance that people actually want to consume, you're just 447 00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:17.400 wasting a whole lot of dollars. And so I think first you've got to 448 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:22.759 focus on affinity and then you focus on going and finding you know, a 449 00:30:22.759 --> 00:30:25.880 lot even as we've we've we've talked about some growth tactics for B to be 450 00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:29.240 growth. It's like we wanted to get into a rhythm with this new short 451 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:33.279 show format and doing some other things that we want to do with the episodes 452 00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:36.839 of B two B growth. We want to get that in place first so 453 00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:41.599 that when we start using some programmatic advertising and we start doing some show swaps 454 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:45.160 to get B to be growth in front of a larger audience. We want 455 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.640 people to come back to be to be growth and go man, this is 456 00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:55.160 this is a refreshingly different show. This isn't just another interview marketing show like 457 00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:59.960 every other interview based marketing show that I listened to. It's actually different where 458 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:03.759 we're hearing people, you know, we're hearing this particular team and sweet fish 459 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:07.559 talk about their points of view and their thoughts and and they still mix in, 460 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:10.599 you know, some some conversations with outside people, but they do it 461 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:14.039 in a refreshingly different way, and so that's that's what I mean by we 462 00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:18.039 have to focus on affinity first, then we go out and get awareness. 463 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.039 That's good. Well, I love having these types of conversations with you guys. 464 00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:26.200 Original research has been so helpful for us to just see, man, 465 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.079 what do a hundred B Two b marketing leaders think on on something like this, 466 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.839 and how often do we even address like, where are the commonly held 467 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:37.839 beliefs in the industry? That I'm like out on? Like, I love 468 00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:42.640 hearing people's responses. And if you haven't listened to the five previous episodes before 469 00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:45.319 this one, we go back in the feed. You can find those now 470 00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.880 and and take take a listen. We're always trying to help fuel your growth 471 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.680 and your innovation. So if you haven't yet followed the PODCAST, be sure 472 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:56.119 to do that on whatever your favorite podcast platform is, and then you can 473 00:31:56.119 --> 00:32:01.440 connect with Dan James and myself over on Linkedin. We're talking about marketing and 474 00:32:01.480 --> 00:32:05.599 business all the time and we'd love to chat with you. Keep doing work 475 00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:22.079 that matters. We'll be back real soon with another episode. We're always excited 476 00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:24.799 to have conversations with leaders on the front lines of marketing. If there's a 477 00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:29.559 marketing director or a chief marketing officer that you think we need to have on 478 00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:34.160 the show, reach out email me, Benji dot block at Sweet Fish Media 479 00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:36.400 Dot Com. I look forward to hearing from you.