Using Customer Insights to Unlock Marketing Success, with Ryan Paul Gibson

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:13.279 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be to be growth. 2 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:20.920 Today I am thrilled to be joined by Ryan Paul Gibson, who is the 3 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:25.480 founder of content lift and a Ryan, great to get the chance to chat 4 00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:28.239 with you today. Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. I 5 00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:31.719 appreciate it. I know there's a lot of talk right now, and this 6 00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:35.520 is part of what actually initially had me reaching out to you. Is, 7 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:39.679 whether it's on this podcast here on B tob growth or it's on Linkedin, 8 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:45.200 we hear this phrase you need to talk to your customers like I can't tell 9 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:49.479 you, Ryan, how many times I have heard that phrase and I'm going 10 00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:53.280 I agree. Let's find an expert, though, who can better defind what 11 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.119 it looks like to do that effectively. Let's not just throw out the phrase 12 00:00:56.119 --> 00:00:59.439 you need to talk to your customers. So I really respect your work. 13 00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:03.280 I love what you're doing on Linkedin as well, helping us think through this, 14 00:01:03.319 --> 00:01:06.799 and I thought let's get them on the show and let's talk about it 15 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:10.560 a little bit. Give me some context and our listener some context if they 16 00:01:10.599 --> 00:01:14.760 aren't familiar with you. Ryan. What are you up to over at content 17 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:19.000 lift and the work you're doing to pull out buy your insights. Yeah, 18 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:22.000 well, content left is me. So I want to make it sound like 19 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:26.760 this this big thing. Yeah, but I've been a marketing be to be 20 00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:32.480 mostly too, for about twenty years and customer research has always been a big 21 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:36.680 pillar for me. But a lot of why I do what I do now 22 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:41.840 is what I've sort of noticed in the lasts, call it seven years or 23 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:48.079 so, maybe ten, working with a lot of like early stage to like 24 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:53.439 series be companies. Is called that, and I'm not sure if it's been 25 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:57.480 mostly a SASS thing, but it happens in Bebtech, even companies that are 26 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:02.760 more tech enabled, because now companies that were once really not very technical or 27 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:09.000 all using Sass to big and degree right to sort of facilitate their operations anyway. 28 00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:12.840 But what happened was I would watch them do, quote, what I 29 00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:17.240 called Primary Customer Research, and a lot of things are happening and the key 30 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:22.960 thing was just not being done well. So either they weren't talking to customers 31 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:27.360 at all, which is why I think you see sort of what's happening now 32 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.840 out in the world of Linkedin and twitter, where people are saying that or 33 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:35.400 they were trying to do it and they weren't doing it very effectively. And 34 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:38.719 I know that's true because I've even talked to but a two dozen CMOS or 35 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:44.159 repeas and marketing about how they how they talk to customers and how they draw 36 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:49.919 insights from that to actually incremately fix or level up their marketing, and they'll 37 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:53.120 tell you we don't do it very well. So that is sort of that. 38 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.199 There's a bigger, longer version of that, which I don't want to 39 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:00.759 take up a those short talking but but that's really impetus of why I started 40 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:04.719 with content left and I love it like it's always been my favorite part. 41 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:08.120 Talking to customers and figuring out how and why they buy is always, words, 42 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:13.360 you know, giving me the most energy when I've been doing marketing over 43 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:16.840 the last two decades. Oh, that answers the question. It definitely does. 44 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:22.120 I think it provides just enough of like what we need to start pushing 45 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:25.479 this conversation to answer some of the questions that because when you're saying that they're 46 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:30.000 CMOS listening, there's directors marketing listening, those that are sitting in any sort 47 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:32.240 of marketing function where they're just nodding their head in agreement. Yeah, we 48 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:36.560 have some sort of form of this, we do some sort of outreach to 49 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:38.800 customers, but we don't really know if we're doing it effectively. We don't 50 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:43.479 know if we're hitting the goal or we're just very aware like we should be 51 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:46.280 doing it more often, but it's sort of left vague because we don't know 52 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:50.439 where it sits and who's supposed to own that. So and if I may, 53 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:52.360 if I may, had one last thing. What it seemed more in 54 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:55.000 them now is bandwidth. I've worked with a lot of one kind, for 55 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:59.520 spotic marketing managers now in the last year they haven't had the time to do 56 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:02.120 this because there's so many other things they have to try and get done. 57 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:05.719 So there's all the colors of the rainbow when it comes to why people don't 58 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:11.159 talk to their customers. So, Yep, okay. So more than just 59 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:16.399 let's let's say we are in some way talking to our customers. If you've 60 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:21.079 seen, because of your work, like it's done in effectively, what are 61 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:26.759 some of those ways you're seeing it done? Maybe poorly? Ryan. Yeah, 62 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:29.680 so a good way to sort of think about that is like how I'd 63 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:33.319 actually go about it and the steps you would take. But the first one 64 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:40.560 is typically people don't have an objective and any good or any good researcher, 65 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:46.560 doesn't matter what you're doing, surveys, interviews, so that have a, 66 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:48.560 you know, large analysis. You need to have a sense of why you're 67 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:51.959 doing what you're doing, like what is the outcome you're looking for, and 68 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:58.560 getting to something that's a statement of fact rather than you're trying to confirm a 69 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:01.639 hunchh it you already have, because that doesn't help you in marketing. You 70 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:05.240 need to understand what is happening. You know what is what has happened now 71 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:09.439 in the market, as opposed to what I hope is true, because that's 72 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:13.319 just an easy path. Let's start wasting your money on marketing. So the 73 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:16.120 an injective is really, I think, the first place where people fall down, 74 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:23.399 because a conversation with a customer can have many facets. So let me 75 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:27.279 let me give an example. Right, so I focus a lot of buying 76 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:30.439 journeys and, you know, the buying process or a path to purchase, 77 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:35.920 is often what the other customer success people call it. But there's also many 78 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:41.600 other ways to have informed conversations with customers. It could be a sales audit 79 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:46.079 could be a UX or user conversation churn if it's sort of product led, 80 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:51.439 when loss, if it's like sales led. You know, Brandon identity is 81 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:57.040 becoming big now. It's a much all their similarities across the board. But 82 00:05:57.079 --> 00:05:59.639 you can spend half an hour or four to five minutes on any one of 83 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:02.120 those those objectives and what does he want to know in those things? So 84 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:06.120 I think what happens is people just sort of opened up zoom or get on 85 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:11.000 the phone and start talking and the conversation you use up thirty minutes so fast 86 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:15.439 that you haven't actually focused on any conversation, any topic or themes to get 87 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.480 insights that can help you. So that's like one of the first things that 88 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:21.920 I would see. I think it because that's just sets the stage for everything. 89 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:28.319 It's interesting there to write because when we're determining our why, for each 90 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:32.920 listener in there, wherever their organization is at, there's a different why. 91 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:36.759 So it's not really as prescriptive where you're going. This is exactly what you 92 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:42.000 should do, other than you need to think through why are you reaching out 93 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:46.199 to customers right now and drill down on what the insight is you want to 94 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:47.920 get, because you could go in broad and you could ask questions on a 95 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:50.160 lot of those things that you just listed, but you're not going to be 96 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:56.959 able to drill down in a thirty minute conversation. It goes too fast and 97 00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:00.560 I don't think people realize how quickly that time passes. You would understand that, 98 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:02.839 Benjie, because you know you do is talk to people interview in this 99 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:08.319 capacity. Yep, but it's that time passes very quickly. So you need 100 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:12.560 to understand what does he want to know and how you find those things? 101 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:15.519 What I'll say to people is, you know, what are the gaps in 102 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:19.199 your knowledge, for around how people find you? What is your annual operating 103 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:24.959 plan or cory the review telling you that you need to change something? Or 104 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:28.519 you know you want to understand some aspect of the business where you might be 105 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:32.160 falling down. I did one project I did recently, but a year ago 106 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:38.519 they had an acquisition and monthly were current, revenue was not hitting the forecasts. 107 00:07:38.519 --> 00:07:44.319 Oh why, we have product market fit. We think what's going on 108 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:46.800 right. So there's all these there's all these things that can be catalyst for 109 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:49.879 why that is Aud Beu the when you ask like what are some things? 110 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:56.240 That's probably the big first one. The other piece that I find unique about 111 00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:01.199 the work you're doing and what you post about is talking about how this research 112 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:05.160 should live in a marketing function, and I think there is some in and 113 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:09.240 again, organizations of different sizes are going to think about this differently. Maybe 114 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:13.360 we talked about that in a minute, but why are you such a big 115 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:18.279 advocate for that research living in the mark as a marketing function? The reason 116 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:22.120 I think it makes sense is because that's you're going to ask questions around your 117 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:28.920 domain of expertise right that a salesperson or a cusser success person might necessarily might 118 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:35.720 not necessarily ask or wouldn't have the instincts to know that if something said in 119 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:39.559 the context of that interview, like they see something really good and very new 120 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:45.600 or out of left field, they wouldn't maybe have the instincts to dive deeper 121 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:50.720 into that. You know, because the sales team understands their world and a 122 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:54.440 customer success team understands their world, that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't help 123 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:56.799 each other out. They do, but you know, there's so much of 124 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:01.120 a marketing journey that the other parts of a business don't touch. Or story 125 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:07.480 of buying journey that the other parts of business don't touch and most most companies 126 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:11.799 only interact with people when they get to either the sales team or they start 127 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:16.120 to sort of self install. That's where things start become high touch. But 128 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:18.879 so much has happened out in the market, you know, and people called 129 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:22.919 different things to sale, dark social now or, you know, dark funnel, 130 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:28.360 what have you. But that type of self education or that type of 131 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:33.679 self guided path to buyd a product where I have a sense set of needs 132 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:37.200 and, I've said, of problems. I do bunch of research as I 133 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:43.759 little things down to maybe a short a shortlists, shortlist of considered vendors, 134 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:46.000 and then I reach out for a bit more of it in depth, look 135 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:50.120 at things right, all that stuff that just happened before I reach out to 136 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:54.759 the vendor or to the sales team or start to install and sort of play 137 00:09:54.799 --> 00:10:01.440 around. There's a ton that happened that marketing can influence and unless I go 138 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:05.039 out and learn it what that stuff is as a marketer who has to execute 139 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:07.919 on those things, someone trying to do that research for me, it's they're 140 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:11.879 not going to uncover as much. I Hope I explained it okay, but 141 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:15.960 I mean, it's you have. If you are going to be the one 142 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:18.279 that's driving to go to market strategy, then you should be the one researching 143 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:22.799 about how you should build that go to market strategy. Yep, and then 144 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:26.320 it does reside a lot on can you or it relies a lot on can 145 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:31.840 you ask the right questions? Can you go in without bias? And I 146 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:35.639 think that is where it becomes critical for marketers because, yeah, you have 147 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:39.159 what you want to know sort of in your head, but then can you 148 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.440 actually do this interview in a way that gets to to the types of results 149 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:48.440 you you need and to the actual type of insights that you need? It's 150 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:52.440 one thing, I think, in a let's say an organization, more of 151 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:54.360 a startup, when you have a small team. A lot of times, 152 00:10:54.360 --> 00:11:00.039 I know in be tob tech, they're not hiring for a marketing function right 153 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:01.639 off the bat. They're trying to prove out their sales first. So you 154 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.960 don't really have someone that's thinking this way yet you need to have these conversations 155 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:11.600 early on. I'm assuming that's where you come alongside, but flesh that out 156 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:18.399 for those that might be listening in that just early stage. Where with where 157 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:20.240 do you think that should sit? Is it just outside consultancy? At that 158 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:28.000 point, what do you see? Yeah, I mean like any other team 159 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:31.279 in a business, right, like they typically get bigger and they grow. 160 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:33.759 There's more rigor that's built out in a team as the company gets bigger. 161 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:39.600 So I mean if you have no marketer yet, which happens right, sometimes 162 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.399 it's the founder for the first two years or one year, depending on how 163 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:50.240 quickly they're they're getting traction in the market. You can falls with them right, 164 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:54.840 and you see that a lot with entrepreneurs, especially ones that are probably 165 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.039 on their second or third business and founders. They are the ones that are 166 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:03.080 the closest to the CUSTOS are typically and they're doing that type of work. 167 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:09.919 Now they probably are only doing, you know, a very surface level approach, 168 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.440 or they're taking a very surface of approach, because I have a thousand 169 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:16.159 of things to do, but that's typically where it lives. Sometimes it a 170 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:20.519 live with the salesperson. I work with some companies that fully outsourced their marketing, 171 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:26.559 but those marketers are really just people is who are specializing in commodities of 172 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:31.080 like content or ads or would have you right. So I come in and 173 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:35.799 help with that part, but then when you get to a company where they 174 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:39.759 have maybe a few more marketers, typically it's you'll see it as your director 175 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:48.120 of marketing or VP of marketing, CMO. They'll typically handle that. And 176 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:50.440 then again it's the next level as you move up. That's for and product 177 00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:54.039 marketing starts to become a thing. That's for typically where you'll see it. 178 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:58.799 And then eventually, what if, from what I what I've seen in the 179 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:05.080 market, once you get to about a four hundred, six hundred full time 180 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:09.919 employee head count, that's where you see research become typically its own thing. 181 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:13.080 There are our liars, though, like you know, sometimes I've work with 182 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:16.759 some companies where it's there, you ax lead, that is all the research 183 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:20.159 and it's all relative to what you think is important for you. You know 184 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:26.279 their companies that are product that that makes sense, but at the same time 185 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:31.080 that person who's like a UX researcher my not get to all those things were 186 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:35.080 we're trying understand what people were doing before they solve the problem, which is 187 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:39.200 where thought leadership and category content and strong narratives, treatic narratives and point of 188 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:43.240 views live when it comes to marketing. So there's never sort of one approach 189 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:46.840 to it, but I think that's the path. The pattern I see when 190 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:54.759 the question of like word is it's it. Hey be to be gross listeners. 191 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:56.519 We want to hear from you. In fact, we will pay you 192 00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:01.240 for it. Just head over to be tob growth podcom and complete a short 193 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:05.159 survey about the show to enter for a chance to win two hundred and fifty 194 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:09.759 dollars plus. The first fifty participants will receive twenty five dollars as our way 195 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:15.639 of saying thank you so much one more time. That's be tob growth podcom, 196 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:22.000 letter B, number two, letter be growth podcom. One entry per 197 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:26.480 person must be an active listener of the show to enter and look forward to 198 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:33.200 hearing from you. There's never sort of one approach to it, but I 199 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:37.320 think that's the path. The pattern I see when the question of like word 200 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:41.240 is it's it. What I like about that is it doesn't matter if you're 201 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:46.039 a founder listening to this or if you happen to be a UX researcher listening 202 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:48.000 to this, or if you sit in marketing and you're going more of our 203 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:52.799 typical audience here and they're just going all right, I do some of these 204 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:54.919 and I want to get better. That's where I want to take us now, 205 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:58.919 because I think there's some intangible some things beyond just do we have a 206 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.679 system in place and do have questions? We'll get there in a second. 207 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:07.559 I wanted to pick your brain on like, after you've done this time and 208 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:11.080 time again, you've seen some things like Oh, this works beyond just the 209 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:15.320 questions I'm asking. That gets to the desired results. What are some of 210 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:18.080 those things that you feel like beyond just a system or like I ask this 211 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:22.840 question and unlocks it, it more of the intangibles that you've picked up on 212 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:28.799 after doing a number these interviews. Yeah, well, I talked about the 213 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:33.600 objectives, which is a big one. At the beginning. I think you 214 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.080 have to try and compare apples apples as best as possible. So what I 215 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:43.440 mean by that is there is it won't do you much good to compare, 216 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:50.840 you know if you've you know, a few products or a few revenue teers. 217 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.000 Right, happens with a lot of SASS companies. I have like my 218 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:56.759 small little starter thing and I have my big enterprise thing at the top. 219 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:02.039 What you're going to find when he talked to the companies that buy these things 220 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:07.200 is why they bought them or often dramatically different reasons and rationals and how they 221 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:11.320 came to choosing this solution is different. So if you if you do a 222 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:15.399 cohorder of interviews, because I typically do eight to twelve. That's what most 223 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.440 researchers do. Sometimes you can do but fifteen, but after that you tend 224 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:22.600 to get like diminishing returns and insights. You just hear the same things over 225 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:25.960 and over again. But if you do that cohort, and I talked to 226 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:29.799 like a small, scrappy startup and some of that's like a six hundred person 227 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.120 company, that's apples the oranges. If for the insights of like what that 228 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:37.759 buying journey, that average buying journey or path to purchase, was for the 229 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.360 work that I do. So you want to try to bear apples to apples, 230 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:42.600 and that's not always easy for people because they think it's all well know, 231 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:47.120 I have a thing and I sell it and everyone's going to understand why. 232 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.279 You know it's all be for the same reasons. But that's not true 233 00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:52.879 at reason, it's usually not true. So weight on that. Then let 234 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:56.039 me ask your fallow. So when you say to twelve interviews, would you 235 00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:00.919 go eight to twelve then for small and then eight to twelve interviews for some 236 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:04.240 of our enterprise customers. Or how absolutely. Yeah, yeah, for like 237 00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:08.279 for whatever that type of customer is. Now, obviously there's overlap, like 238 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:12.480 if it's the twenty person company, the fifty four person company. You can 239 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:17.160 get away with a bit of overlap there, but that's the ideal scenario that 240 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.640 you want to try to or average contract values a good one, right. 241 00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:26.400 Sometimes that's a good line to draw, you know. or who with the 242 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:29.480 roles are for a person in a company. Often we look at titles, 243 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:33.119 but I don't. I look at like who owns what peace of a company, 244 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:36.279 right, and they're trying to do something. So that that's one thing 245 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:40.119 I think is crucial when you're like sort of from an intangible standpoint. A 246 00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:41.599 second one. This is going to sound strange, but I actually tell people 247 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:45.880 not to ask questions, okay, which sounds crazy, not as good break 248 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:52.759 this that I say focus on themes as opposed to questions. So let me 249 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:56.480 give an example. So let's go back to the one I did with the 250 00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:03.480 acquisition, right. It was very specific around you know, what happened, 251 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:07.319 why they came and bought at this point in time and why, when we 252 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:11.640 showed them, the market that we had with this under this new company's manner, 253 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:15.640 didn't work right. So we're focusing very much like on that specific part 254 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:19.279 of the journey. I don't care about if they turned I don't care about 255 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:23.119 if they're happy with the product. You know, I don't care about any 256 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.839 of that. I don't. It sounds almost counterintuitive, but that's not the 257 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:30.960 point of the conversation. The point was, why didn't they buy this thing 258 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:34.119 at the beginning when we showed it to them, when, for all intents 259 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:40.759 and purposes, we thought we had the right market messaging. So what happened 260 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:44.319 there? What broke down? I showed you this ad or came out in 261 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:47.160 cold pitch you with the messaging and we had you're like no, thank you. 262 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:52.319 Right. So within that, if I know the themes and the the 263 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.720 objectives that I want to hit, I'm not just rallying off a list of 264 00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:59.920 questions, because what happens is, and you might have this, might have 265 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.960 you might have faced this when you first started out podcasting, if you have 266 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:07.599 too many questions, what happens is you stop actively listening and you start focusing 267 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:11.519 on the next question to ask. So then you can't you're not listening for 268 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:15.960 like really key insights to pick up on and ask really good fall questions. 269 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:18.759 So my thing is, okay, if I have a list of you know, 270 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.279 how did they get here, you know, how did they evaluate and 271 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:26.759 then why did they choose us over the other solutions a shortlisted, then I 272 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:30.720 might have three or four questions within that and that's it might be six, 273 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:33.880 seven questions rather than like twenty over the course of everything that I want to 274 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.720 know about them. Right. That's so those are some small things and small 275 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:41.599 tweaks. I think that's hope Thissen to me by intangibles, but those are 276 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:44.640 some things that, you know, keep it tight, keep it focused. 277 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:49.079 Themes over questions is going to stick with me. I definitely resonate, even 278 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:52.480 though I'm not doing customer interviews. We're talking, you know, podcasting here, 279 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:56.519 but the white board that sits next to me, I make jokes about 280 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:00.319 it on the show, but the notes that I take there I find obviously 281 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.359 that that's where you get the follow up questions, the trails that you actually 282 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.519 want to go down with somebody. And when you come in, especially like 283 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.279 if I come in with wordy questions, which is may be different than your 284 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:14.240 environment, but then I'm thinking about how would I word the next question? 285 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:17.960 And then, yeah, that takes the interview in a different direction than, 286 00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:21.079 Oh, I just heard what Ryan said and now I want to talk to 287 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:22.519 him more like in this context I'm going on now, I want to talk 288 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:27.240 to you more about themes, because my brain would live in the world of 289 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:30.200 like one, two, three, here's the questions, here's the system and 290 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:36.119 now we've perfected it. But to have those themes sounds like. I mean 291 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:38.960 that that ends up getting you a lot more of what. Then your end, 292 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:44.400 you get the insights because you had themes and not just a list of 293 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:48.160 questions you rattled off the other it's true. And the other reason why I 294 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.799 think you want to do that is humans don't astarily talk in a linear fashion, 295 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:57.319 especially when you're asking people lots of questions about their buying experience. All 296 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:02.799 Times they'll rush to give you the entire thing right away, right so try 297 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:04.640 and tell you everything they did within like thirty seconds. But they're not gonna 298 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:08.839 remember everything they did thirty seconds because what what? They haven't actually started to 299 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:12.799 connect all the dots in their brain yet. There's something we call recall and 300 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.720 if you interview people long enough, which just start to see is but halfway 301 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:19.519 through an interview, their recall starts to strengthen and they'll say things like, 302 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:23.039 oh, you know what, I totally forgot this. So I like using 303 00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:29.880 themes because what happens is, especially sometimes I'll even use the timeline, asked 304 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:33.839 them when they made when they made a decision. Roughly could be January two 305 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:37.319 thousand and twenty. I said this happened great, and then I'll write that 306 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:40.400 down and I'll say I'll check mark off a theme that I want to get 307 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:44.319 at. And what's happened is now they start rambling. There were of all 308 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:48.279 these different directions and Susan came this and did this and Jim told me this 309 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:52.480 and Bubba, awesome, great. I want to go back to January two 310 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:55.640 thousand and twenty when we were talking about this one piece. What did you 311 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.759 do next after that? Because what they've just done the last thirty seconds is 312 00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:03.480 ramble the bunch of bunch of stuff that doesn't make doesn't won't help you at 313 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:07.000 all. You're trying to do is just take them through that narratives to spur 314 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:10.400 that recall, right, to get to the things that you want to understands, 315 00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:15.039 you can actually get insights then action and to your marketing motions like this 316 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:17.559 is something needs to change, as we did. We were not doing this 317 00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:19.640 correctly. There's will, there's a lot more, but I think we'll probably 318 00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:22.319 go for like two hours. There's so much. I mean, there's so 319 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:27.000 much there and but it is fascinating and it's interesting, I know, to 320 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:30.480 our audience, because this is something again, like when we talk on a 321 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:33.880 more of a buzzword type topic like this, where you're going. We need 322 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.920 to talk to customers. I had heard that so many times, regurgitated and 323 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:42.319 no one really breaking it down into what is useful. That that's why this 324 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.279 can be, you know, this longer conversation that we could drill down on 325 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:48.680 just themes. Right. Going back to what you said, like let's have 326 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.519 one sort of reason we're here. I want to get into your style a 327 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.079 little bit more, or like the thing your process. When we had talked 328 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:02.200 offline before we recorded, you had mentioned that you think of how you do 329 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.680 this personally as like a blend of jobs to be done, which some will 330 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:08.680 be familiar with, and then something called grounded theory. Break that down a 331 00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:11.480 little bit. Some of US maybe aren't familiar with jobs to be done. 332 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:15.319 So, but can you talk a little bit about how you use both of 333 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:19.079 those? Yeah, so jobs being done. For people who aren't familiar, 334 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:22.160 they can google it. There's a ton, so much of language. It's 335 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:29.119 really just an innovation framework started by a guy named Clayton Christiansen and there's a 336 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:30.799 few people that have carried on this work to this day. But if you 337 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.000 really dig into it there's some he might have bought some stuff from from the 338 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:38.759 s doesn't matter. So it is borrowing, yeah, but it's it's really 339 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:45.920 how why we hire products? Like what are the jobs you hire products to 340 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:51.240 do for us? Because people care about end states. They don't necessarily care 341 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:53.240 about the thing. They care about the what the thing can do for them. 342 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:56.640 And doesn't matter if you're buying a car or the when the class examples 343 00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:00.359 they give is, you know, I don't buy a drill to make a 344 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:03.519 hole that buy a drill to hang a picture, right, but the thing 345 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:07.720 is there's all these reasons why people buy the products they do that might necessarily 346 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:12.839 fit into what you think they're using them for. I use that framework and 347 00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:19.000 a lot of researchers do, because it's also how people make decisions about existing 348 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:22.200 products. Usually job, a lot of times job be jobs to be done, 349 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:26.000 is used by product people to create new things. Because for the system 350 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:30.440 of how they use that methodology, I like to use snippets of it to 351 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:36.839 figure out how people choose existing things that they've already paid for. Right. 352 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:41.880 It's almost the same mindset. Standard theory. I think you called it ground 353 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.440 a theory in our previous conversationy. Thank you, yes, greatory. Thank 354 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:48.240 you. You don't even remember my own stuff. So round of the theory 355 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:56.920 is basically the process of taking qualitative insights, which sometimes can be across the 356 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.400 board and and there's a lot of subtext to how people talk, because sometimes 357 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:04.720 the things they say aren't over like. They might say something but they mean 358 00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:08.039 something else in the context of what you've asked a question. What you're doing 359 00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:12.160 is you're taking that data in your code to find it into quantitative data. 360 00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:15.799 Okay, and it's a process you go over and over again. So how 361 00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:21.799 I work is, I will say, Dude, twelve interviews. Everything's transcribed 362 00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:26.920 because that's part of that process, and I'm looking for themes and patterns and, 363 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:32.319 you know, repetitions of things, either are things I say directly or 364 00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:34.599 things they meet. They the subtext of things they say because they're going to 365 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:38.640 fall into those themes that I've talked about right. I've already highlighted where those 366 00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:41.960 commerce what we're talking about with in the context of those themes. So I 367 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:47.200 take those and I extract them, I read them again and I extract more 368 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:49.359 stuff out of them and I'm just sort of pushing them to the side and 369 00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:53.319 codifying them. So eventually what I'll get to is, out of twelve interviews, 370 00:25:53.319 --> 00:26:00.640 I might find five common buying triggers that are happening for this cohort of 371 00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:04.200 interviewees. Your five things. On average, they've all said this has happened 372 00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:08.240 at some point in the business which led me to finding this product. This 373 00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:12.440 was a true that is the process of granted theory at but it's that's where 374 00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:17.119 a lot of people get tripped up in this work is they'll listen to an 375 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:22.119 interview and they'll figure okay, well, now what there's this we just talked 376 00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:23.799 for. Half of all guilty. How's this going to affect my facebook ads 377 00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:27.440 next week? Because I got to hit this many leads over the next quarter. 378 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.799 Like, draw me the line here. But what you're doing is you're 379 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:36.279 figuring out how people systematically made decisions about choosing your product and then then when 380 00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:38.039 you have those things, you can go and look at your marketing and say, 381 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:41.480 have we covered off these things? So I use a blend of those 382 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:47.640 two things grounded theory that use a lot in sociology. So it's a really 383 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:49.559 interesting I can I'll send you a link after and if people want to look 384 00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:52.400 at it, there's a whole wikipedia article on and lots of youtube videos. 385 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.039 Is Very academic, Yep, but it's a really great system for trying to 386 00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:02.200 take all those qualitative insights and turn them into quantity of data that you can 387 00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:06.559 action into your marketing. That seems to me where that next breakdown would be, 388 00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:08.720 because I could improve the questions that I'm asking right, I could, 389 00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:15.839 I could systematize it, but then you're still have that last handoff that goes 390 00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:21.559 from the questions that we ask to the insights we implement and that that ends 391 00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:25.200 up being the only reason. Yes, you want your customer to feel heard 392 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:27.640 and you want you know that side, but ultimately, on the back end 393 00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:33.279 of things you want to improve what you're doing so that they like look better 394 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:37.799 business outcomes. So we have to make sure that the insights are actually applicable 395 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:40.920 and I think that's what this really drils down on. I'd love for you 396 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:42.279 to send over some links and we'll be sure to put that in the in 397 00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:45.720 the show notes, so people can go down that sort of wormhole of grounded 398 00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:48.880 theory. They're all right. As we kind of come up for air here 399 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.680 we're nearing the end of our time together, I wonder say I told you 400 00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:56.160 goes by fast. It does go by fast and I could talk to you 401 00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:57.519 about this for a long time. So when I look at the clock, 402 00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:00.960 I was like Ah, twenty eight, all right. Well, here we 403 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:03.720 go. This is where I want to end, Ryan. I want us 404 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:08.200 to just go if someone's listening to this and they're doing the dishes, they're 405 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:11.240 doing something else right. Maybe they're listening while they're working or they're running. 406 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:15.279 We often talk about mindset shifts or a way that I will do this net 407 00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:19.559 different next time. What will you leave our audience with to go hey, 408 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.559 like why apples to apples? Themes, not questions. Those are all things 409 00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:26.640 were walking away with. Anything you want to add a sort of like a 410 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:32.640 mindset shift, a practical thing to leave people with as we leave this episode. 411 00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:34.079 Do you mean like practical for why they should do it or how they 412 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:37.599 should do it? How they should do it. Let's go how yeah, 413 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:45.079 I mean act really have an open mind. It's so easy to go in 414 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:49.920 with your assumptions guiding the process. Are Biases will often get the best of 415 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:53.319 us in these scenarios and I was what I did mention the beginners. I 416 00:28:53.319 --> 00:28:57.000 was a reporter for three years right between marketing gigs, and that's where I 417 00:28:57.079 --> 00:29:03.200 really learned the abilities to do investigative interviewing where you get to an unbite. 418 00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:07.759 You try to get to an unbiased statement of fact and bias statement of facts 419 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:11.160 as best as you can, because if you can do that, they would 420 00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:15.039 you have is a real strong snapshot of what's happening as opposed to what you 421 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.079 hope is happening, because hope is the worst marketing strategy. It's not going 422 00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:22.720 to get you anything. So if you if, and this is just one 423 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.920 piece at the marketing puzzle, right, but if you have an open mind 424 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.039 and you try to reduce those biases in those assumptions much as you can when 425 00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:34.880 you going to do this work, you'll really learn a ton about what is 426 00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:38.640 happening and how people make are thinking about your product and why they bought it 427 00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:42.279 in the first place. And if you can unlock that, it makes marketing 428 00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:49.759 so much much easier. Fascinating. I think that's good space to come up 429 00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:53.440 for air. Probably this is one where, like even on themes, if 430 00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:56.960 people have follow up questions, I'd say, Hey, reach out to Ryan, 431 00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:00.519 because that's not something you just apply overnight where you're all of a sudden 432 00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:03.039 great at it. It's easier to lean into questions like that's the reason that 433 00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:07.880 we all do that, I know. So that's an area where I'm even 434 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:11.279 thinking man like. That's I like that. I like and and this is 435 00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:14.640 really, I think, so helpful for for many of us that are living 436 00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:18.440 in this world and trying to get better at at how we talk to customers. 437 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:22.200 So right. For those that want to stay connected to you, because 438 00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:25.799 you are talking about this consistently, even on Linkedin. But what are some 439 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:30.440 ways we can can do that and and continue to follow your work? Yeah, 440 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.279 Linkedin, it's the best right, linkedin. And then DM me, 441 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:37.519 like I'm pretty open. Yep, I just want to help people. Like 442 00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:41.680 I my goals help people get better at this, because what I do is 443 00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.720 not rocket science by any stretch. Benji like, if I can say that. 444 00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:47.200 Don't think if I can do it, anyone can do it. So 445 00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:49.200 it's not that. It just takes practice, in a bit of work right 446 00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:53.720 and experience. So yeah, DM me, they can jump on content left 447 00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:56.440 and see what I'm bout there if they ever want to work with me in 448 00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:00.920 a more formal capacity, but linkedin. Yeah, I'm just happy to answer 449 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:03.160 any questions people have. Well, Ryan, thank you so much for for 450 00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:07.440 taking time and stop them by be to be growth today. Yeah, thanks 451 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:10.400 for having me. It's great. Want to say to our listeners thanks for 452 00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:15.400 checking out this episode. I know there's some really great insights in here to 453 00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:19.079 help us fuel our innovation and Growth, specifically around how we talked to customers, 454 00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:22.119 which is something all of us are thinking about. So if you haven't 455 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:26.279 followed the show, do so on whatever your favorite podcast platform is. That 456 00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:32.559 way you never miss an episode. Will be back real soon with another show 457 00:31:32.599 --> 00:31:48.480 for you and I keep doing work that matters. If you enjoyed a day 458 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:52.839 show, hit subscribe for more marketing goodness and if you really enjoyed today show, 459 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:56.720 take a second to rate and review the podcast on the platform you're listening 460 00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:00.920 to it on right now. If you really really enjoyed this episode, share 461 00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:04.119 the love by texting it to a friend who would find it insightful. Thanks 462 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:06.200 for listening and thanks for sharing.