The Most Over-Rated Trend in B2B Marketing | Original Research

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:20.480 Welcome in. On today's episode of B Two B growth, we're gonna be 3 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:27.199 talking over some some overrated trends, and we had the privilege recently, like 4 00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:30.280 in the last couple of years, of sitting down with a hundred marketing leaders 5 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:36.200 and asking fifteen original research questions. We're tackling one of those on this episode 6 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:40.560 today. With me we have James Carberry and Dan Sanchez and we're gonna dig 7 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:46.119 into the findings around the following question. What's the most overrated trend in B 8 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:49.840 two B marketing? Before we do that, like, let's just talk about 9 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:52.920 how this research was conducted for a second, James, because I think it's 10 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:56.640 important context, and then we'll dive into the question. Tell me a little 11 00:00:56.679 --> 00:01:00.840 bit about the process of of getting this research and compiling because it was actually 12 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:03.719 before I was was on the team even. Yeah, so the original idea 13 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:07.879 is that we would actually like charge for this original research and that we would 14 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:12.159 do it quarterly. And we're like, we're we're already having all these conversations 15 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:17.000 with B two B marketing practitioners on B twob growth. Why don't we just 16 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:22.000 tack on some questions into the pre interview of the Post interview and we'll compile 17 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:26.439 this research. It will be qualitative instead of the typical like surveys that are 18 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:33.239 just quantitative. And boy did I not realize how much of a massive undertaking 19 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:38.599 this would be. So we started this in started the conversations and we decided 20 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:41.799 that we wanted to try to get to a hundred. I can't remember what 21 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.280 the original number was. We're like, you know what it'll sound sexi or 22 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:49.799 if we have a hundred people that we've we've asked these questions too. So 23 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:53.799 we kept pushing through. We got lost in the slog of it because organizing 24 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:57.359 everybody's answers, you've got to transcribe everything, you've got to figure out how 25 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:01.200 to like organize it in a a that is easy for someone to go back 26 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:05.560 through and either read or listen to all the content so that they can come 27 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:08.879 up with insights. Anyway, it took us all of basically the back half 28 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:14.479 of and all of one and then the first part of to put this all 29 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:16.919 together. But the original intent was, hey, this, this could be 30 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:21.719 like a product that we end up selling and that might still be something we 31 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:24.039 do down the road. The original intent was not to. From what I 32 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:28.599 can remember, I don't think we ever intended to like break it down on 33 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:31.759 B twob growth like we're doing now. So that's been a more recent or 34 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:38.240 more recent idea or evolution of the original research project. But that's how we 35 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:40.439 did it. I mean it was just we are already having conversations with these 36 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:44.080 B two B marketing leaders and we just said, hey, it'd be really 37 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:47.159 interesting if we asked all of them the same ten or fifteen questions and then 38 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:51.919 compiled the data and and told the world about it. Yeah, in Sorri 39 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:57.960 right, like research like this is always so great to have posts, but 40 00:02:58.039 --> 00:03:00.240 when you're actually in the process of collecting you and then, I think we're 41 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:02.960 even going to jump into this in a minute, but like when you think 42 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:09.120 of trends, getting original research data driven, like the jump from data to 43 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:14.520 actual insight, there's just so many steps in between and pulling that out, 44 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:17.520 and so we are learning that, but we're still using this and I think 45 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:22.719 that's what's important, because there's so much here that we can glean conversation from 46 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:25.479 and then ultimately it will make us better at our marketing. And so that's 47 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:29.599 our hope and our desire and honestly, honestly, Benji, it is, 48 00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:31.639 I don't want to say surprising, because I hear Chris Walker talk about it 49 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:36.240 all the time, but the benefit to this, in addition to it being 50 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:40.199 great content, it's actually giving us insights that are helping us build a better 51 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:45.439 product or better service for our clients. So we were just in Denver with 52 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:47.800 our leadership team talking through like how can we take our service to the next 53 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:53.319 level, and we're thinking through like what kind of guarantee can we incorporate into 54 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:58.680 our offer and the insights from this research. We had just compiled like the 55 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:02.599 last of the insights from it, and I ended up referencing this original research 56 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:06.759 all throughout the entire day because we had just talked to literally a hundred of 57 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:10.879 our ideal buyers. We know what keeps them up at night, we know 58 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:15.719 how their CEO measures and their success. We know what their biggest struggle is. 59 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:19.600 So we can literally cater our service to what we now know. We're 60 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:24.439 not guessing anymore. We know what these people are saying and we can go 61 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:28.199 back and actually listen to them say it. And so I'm pretty bullish on 62 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:30.000 the fact that every company should figure out how to do this. I'll be 63 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:33.720 the first one to tell you it as hard as hell, but absolutely worth 64 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:39.279 it. Well, today's question is very subjective and it's good to acknowledge that 65 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:43.199 before we go into this. This is less saying everyone thinks this way and 66 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:46.079 more here's a bunch of things that, as we surveyed marketers, B two 67 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:49.800 B marketers, they're going this is an overrated trend in marketing and B two 68 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:55.160 B marketing right now. And so here's what I'm gonna Invite from Dan and 69 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:57.639 James, as they can interrupt me at any time. I'm about to to 70 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:00.879 read through this list of answers that given to this question. And guys, 71 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:03.839 if if one is is kind of like a bigger deal to you, you 72 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:06.480 want to talk about it for a second, interrupt me and we can talk 73 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:11.480 about it discuss. So here are some of the things that were mentioned as 74 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:16.759 overrated trends. Trade shows, AI, chat bots, gated content, a 75 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:25.680 B M as a service or tool or product, email capture, white papers, 76 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:30.639 sending gifts that aren't personal, being data driven. So that is a 77 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:33.920 lot of things. The ones that stand out to me. I think that 78 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:39.360 we've all kind of evolved our thinking around. The one that we were talking 79 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:43.360 about right before we hit record was was gated content. And so there's this 80 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:47.560 massive push to get all of your content and Dan, you've actually had you've 81 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:51.759 helped me kind of see a different way. I decided not to gate our 82 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:56.199 B Two B podcasting course that we we released a year or two ago. 83 00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:00.800 I still don't think I regret that decision. Dan, you feel differently. 84 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:03.959 What are your thoughts, dwn on, on why this whole push to get 85 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:09.639 all your content is maybe not the best idea? As it is with most 86 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:12.839 trends, like trends tend to flip from one side to the other. So 87 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.279 we go really hard on one side and of course pushed it too far and 88 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:18.399 then everyone's like no, it sucks, it's horrible, so it swings to 89 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:23.439 total opposite side instead of landing in the middle. Right. I came from 90 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:27.040 a B to c world and from higher ed where I was using gated content 91 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:30.720 successfully, like it was freaking working. I would get their email, I 92 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.600 would send them great follow up emails and I would send them good content, 93 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:36.600 like they would literally come in on a specific category on the blog. I 94 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:41.480 showed them a relevant lead magnet that was relevant to that category. Some would 95 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.839 opt in for it and get the lead magnet and I'd follow up with more 96 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:48.279 articles related to that category and the consumption levels are really high and of course 97 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:51.480 over time the consumption level of them would go down and I'd unoped them out 98 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:55.160 if they didn't engage with a certain amount. But I would never send them 99 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.560 to sales. Versus when I found out when I came over to B two 100 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:01.720 B and, people were like literally capturing people on content and then shipping into 101 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:05.680 sales without them initiating any kind of sales conversation, I was like, well, 102 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:10.600 of course the lead's not going to covert. No wonder sales hates like 103 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:14.560 this kind of quote unquote m Q. Well, I would never do that, 104 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:16.000 like I might throw a right hook and the email every once in a 105 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:18.639 while being like hey, you want to talk to sales? No, cool, 106 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:21.560 don't. I wouldn't send waste our time on sales because I know that 107 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:25.519 it's just made sense that it didn't work. At first I was like, 108 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:27.879 why are they so against gated content, and I found out, oh, 109 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:31.279 it's because you're freaking doing it wrong. Like if you do it right you 110 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:38.360 can essentially send them more value and endear them, a small percentage of them 111 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:40.839 a little bit more. But if you have thousands of people coming to a 112 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:44.879 blog or to a podcast or to whatever the content is, and you're capturing 113 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:47.480 a small percentage with something more value and then you're following up in a really 114 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:51.399 good way, there's nothing wrong with that and it works well. I think 115 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:56.959 a lot of my issue with, you know, getting on lists because I 116 00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:01.439 wanted to download something, and it's just getting increasingly and it's getting harder and 117 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:07.079 harder, I think, to create something good enough for me to want to 118 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.639 consume it in my inbox. And I don't know if that's too much, 119 00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:16.879 just me getting hammered with spam. And I just hired someone to specifically like 120 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.279 focus on my inbox for me. So I literally like I have such an 121 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.680 aversion to getting sucked into the rabbit hole that is my inbox that so I 122 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:30.319 I hesitate to come on too strong here because I think I'm probably an extremist 123 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:31.799 when it comes to just like I don't want to think about my inbox. 124 00:08:31.799 --> 00:08:35.120 I want to be in my inbox. I want somebody reading all my stuff 125 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.759 and then texting me to let me know if they think that there's something big 126 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.840 enough that I need to pay attention to or or think about that comes into 127 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:48.519 my inbox, because our internal comms happen in slack and so I'm tuned in 128 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:52.360 internally to the team through that platform. And so all the external stuff coming 129 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.919 from email, most of it is just absolute garbage. But I do think 130 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:00.519 that if you're thoughtful, and we talked about premise development all the time and 131 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:03.200 figuring out what's your Hook, what's your angle, and you see companies like 132 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:09.200 the Hustle and these newsletters morning, you know morning crew like there have been 133 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:13.639 people that have figured out how do we deliver a delightful experience in the inbox 134 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:16.080 that people actually want to consume. But it requires a lot of thought and 135 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:20.600 it requires a lot of editorial lift to create something so good that somebody wants 136 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:24.360 to look at it. And I think most of the time we, you 137 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.519 know, at least in B Two b land, there's not the thought and 138 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:33.720 care put into what goes into the email and and that's a shame because I 139 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:37.600 think it's kind of given gated content a really bad name. But we took 140 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:41.159 a hybrid approach with the B twob podcasting course and said Hey, you can 141 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:46.240 you can watch all the course for free, or you can sign up if 142 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:48.600 you want access to updates or you want a log in or you want it 143 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:52.600 in your inbox so that you can file it away and go back to it 144 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:56.960 easily without having to remember a link. So there was some utility to like, 145 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:58.840 but we allowed people to do both. I'm seeing more and more people 146 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:01.799 do that. It's like, Hey, you can download it here if you 147 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.480 want the pdf in your inbox, or you can just look at it here. 148 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:07.360 So yeah, so much of this stuff. I think you hit the 149 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:09.639 nail on the head, Dan, when he said it's that we're somewhere in 150 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:13.320 the middle. Like we we like to take hot takes and go with the 151 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.279 completely other way when in reality, uh, there's probably a middle ground there, 152 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:20.480 and I think the middle ground, particularly forgated content, is are you 153 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:26.519 delivering something exceptional in the inbox once you capture that email, and obviously not 154 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:31.519 just sending them straight to sales? It's interesting because I would just use the 155 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.759 imagery of a pendulum swinging, because the most of marketing where you're going to 156 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:43.000 get your advantage is when people swing really hard to one side. You just 157 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:45.320 look. Okay, they're all paying attention over here. If we just go 158 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:48.200 pay attention to whatever the opposite is, there's less people over there right now 159 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:52.120 and that's where we win. You look at direct mail and everybody that advocated 160 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:58.000 to get rid of direct mail went over to digital things and made it so 161 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:01.440 crowded in the digital space that there is definitely people that are winning with direct 162 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:05.399 mail because they went where everybody else thought we can't win over there. And 163 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:09.480 so when you look at this list, I'm like, can you win at 164 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:11.480 trade shows? Yeah, if there's a ton of people on linkedin saying you 165 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:15.000 shouldn't do trade shows, Blah Blah, blah, Blah Blah, but you 166 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.960 know your market. When I look at this entire lit like chat box would 167 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.440 be a similar thing. If you thought it was a trend a few years 168 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:24.240 ago and most people are walking away from it in your little industry and you 169 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:30.519 walk into it, there could be a potential advantage if done correctly. And 170 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:33.360 even one thing we've talked about on B two B growth before that hit this 171 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:37.720 list was sending gifts that aren't personal that we've talked about. Get receiving a 172 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:41.960 gift and you're like this is like half done merch or this is half done 173 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:45.639 like swag, and I'm I'm just not in on it. We we literally 174 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:48.279 just hit pause on something like we were about to do that. We were 175 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:52.720 about to send out boxes to to folks in squads, and I looked at 176 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:56.120 what was going to go in the boxes and I was like this just doesn't 177 00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:58.919 this doesn't feel like something I would get in the mail and go, man, 178 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:03.279 that was delightful, and so we boshed it. But I don't think 179 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:07.720 a lot of people have that have are necessarily thinking about it in the same 180 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:11.080 way, and so they put a lot of time, into effort, into 181 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:15.080 into things that don't actually do what what they hope they would have done. 182 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:18.399 I just think, yeah, that pendulum and being aware of where you're at 183 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.799 potentially can give you an advantage, and that's as I look at this list. 184 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.799 People are like, Oh, this is so overrated. They get really 185 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:31.519 passionate about it, and if that becomes a blind spot, like just be 186 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:35.960 aware that there is someone that can win in that category still, there's someone 187 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:37.720 that's using it effectively. If you really want to learn it, you can 188 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:41.960 learn it. You don't, you shouldn't learn everything. Some of these things 189 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:45.360 you should just all right, that's for someone else, but pick your things 190 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:48.679 and pick wisely. Dan. Anything else that stands out to you from this 191 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.960 list? Yeah, I still think chat bucks suck. Everybody is saying they 192 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:56.679 suck. I'm like, Yep, I agree. Yep, that was a 193 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:00.559 bad trend all through. I haven't seen it done well. So somebody proved 194 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:03.600 me wrong. I hope. If you know a chat bought that works well, 195 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:07.320 send it to Dan on Linkedin and Hill. I think we use a 196 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:11.200 chat Bot on the sweek fish site. I can't remember now. I hate 197 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:16.480 it, I know. Okay, so I'm looking at the key findings here. 198 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:20.840 I'll tell you, guys, how it was broken down status wise. 199 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:26.759 So most marketers listed a B M actually as a service or a tool or 200 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:33.440 a product, as the trend that was most overrated. So that actually came 201 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:39.360 in a B M as a as a tech tool. At and Dan, 202 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:43.679 I know we've talked a lot about a B M, so probably want your 203 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.519 insight here. But then it goes to things like social media, chat bots, 204 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:50.159 trade shows. I think social is very funny and that's such a broad 205 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.759 term that I don't understand quite how we got to eight percent. There but 206 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:58.759 then four percent for things like virtual events personalization. So there's a huge jump 207 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:05.600 down from a B M to these other categories. Any first initial insights, 208 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:09.120 when you hear that Dan is a statue. Twenty one percent saying the most 209 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:11.759 overrated was a B M, I'm not surprised. They were very successful in 210 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:16.879 establishing that as a category. What's interesting is three times as high as the 211 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:20.759 second one, almost three times to eight percent. What I found interesting and 212 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:26.120 reading the responses is there's almost always nuance to how people said a B m. 213 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:30.320 But there it's almost like they can't throw a B m out the window 214 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.320 completely. It's always like just the way it's emphasized about it being a tool 215 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:37.039 or a crm. But almost all the marketers, all B two B marketers, 216 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:41.480 know the a B M is actually a really good thing and coming from 217 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:43.240 a BBC World, I didn't even know and honestly it made me fall in 218 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.759 love with B two B, because a B M can be so it's you 219 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:50.519 just have more information to work with. It's so different to cover a category. 220 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:54.879 You know a category, even using firm a graphics to have a narrowly 221 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.320 defined category is very different from no, we're going to target these three companies 222 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:03.120 to totally different approach changes the game and some people might call that best practice, 223 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:07.919 but I think most marketers know that that is a good thing. And 224 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:09.279 maybe they were doing in sales, but I don't I still don't think most 225 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:13.360 marketing departments do it that way. I know even at sweet fish we kind 226 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.720 of do it that way sometimes, but most people just spray a very good 227 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.759 segment. They're doing segmentation but not going after specific companies, and I think 228 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:24.399 that's why a B M is so loved and hated, because of the tech 229 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:28.159 people throw onto. It's like, oh well, you have to have terminus, 230 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.039 you have to have this, but really most marketers will come to the 231 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:35.399 conclusion that you can do it with just an excel sheet, like it doesn't 232 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:37.320 have to be fancy. Yeah, I like that you called out the fact 233 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:41.360 that you know. The fact that three times more people that you know there 234 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:46.919 there were these folks that said a B M is an indication of how well 235 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:52.399 I see terminus as really being the category King of a B M and I 236 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:56.840 think sang Ram just did a masterful job of designing and building the category of 237 00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:03.960 a b m. and naturally, when you do something that creates widespread awareness, 238 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.240 a lot of adoption, you're gonna have a lot of people hating on 239 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:12.000 it. And so I personally know sand Rome uh pretty well and I know 240 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:17.399 his heart and I know like a lot of just seeing these responses going because 241 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:18.480 of this. I don't like it and I don't like it and I'm like, 242 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:22.879 I think sand Rome would agree with you, like he doesn't like that 243 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:27.159 either, like that's not what he's advocating for as he was building this this 244 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:33.279 category of of a b m. and so I think category builders just naturally. 245 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.720 If, if you succeed, I think in a lot of cases you're 246 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:40.720 you're going to have folks like this that push back against it. Well, 247 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.759 let's talk about because of these results, as you think of overrated trends, 248 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:48.159 what are some recommendations? What are some things we would do differently or or 249 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:51.159 be aware of? And I can go first on this. I think for 250 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:56.240 me we're sort of speaking around it, but I think whenever there's a big 251 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.559 trend like a B M and it has staying power, right, but I 252 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:04.119 think there's can be like strategy fatigue or people half baked something and they call 253 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:08.640 it a b M. They're not fully in on it. There like executing 254 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:12.640 at at sixty s and there's saying yeah, we're doing a B M. 255 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:17.079 and when they start talking about that, then more and more in the market 256 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.519 or more and more on Linkedin. You just get a lot of ideas all 257 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:25.680 mixed in together that create like a messaging problem and then you think something is 258 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:30.119 overrated because we didn't see the results that were preached by whoever the leader is 259 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.720 or those those companies that are killing it. It's like, well, our 260 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:37.000 company tried that and it didn't really work, and I think knowing that that 261 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:41.480 fatigue can set in because it's being harped on over and over again is so 262 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:45.079 important. But to assess, like how much are we actually putting in into 263 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.359 this, and is this our course strategy, like is this the thing that 264 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:51.799 we really really want to do? If we're gonna do it, let's do 265 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:55.960 it and go all in on it. That's one of the absolute most most 266 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:57.960 important things you can do. We talked about focus on a previous one of 267 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:03.079 these original research episodes. You have to have a focused strategic approach or it's 268 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:06.440 really hard to win. And so to me it's like, well, if 269 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:08.680 a B M is your your course strategy, then that's gonna make a lot 270 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:12.440 of other decisions easier for you because you know what you're doing and how you're 271 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:17.000 going to market. James, what did you think as as kind of recommendations 272 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:19.440 based out of this? Yeah, so, I mean just I just think 273 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:23.359 a lot of people have a bad taste in their mouth about a B M 274 00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:30.680 because of their personal experience being on the receiving end of it. It's particularly 275 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.720 you know, we talked to VPS of marketing. I think some CMOS were 276 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.640 in the mix. I mean those are executives that are right. I mean 277 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:41.079 there's how many, nine thousand Martek tools, and so I think you're on 278 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:45.720 the receiving end of you know, hey, can you take this hundred dollar 279 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:49.319 gift card and jump on a demo with somebody from our sales team? And 280 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:55.079 somebody's calling that a B M and it's like uh, so, bad execution 281 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:57.960 of a B M. I think gives a B M a bad name. 282 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:02.039 But, like we've been saying this whole time, like that's probably love marketing, 283 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:07.240 the room that we have for creativity, outside the box, thinking doing 284 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:11.400 something that's not necessarily that's not breaking news. It's been done before, but 285 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.240 we can do it better, we can have a more creative execution. So 286 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:18.640 I think that plays a big part of the bad taste that people have in 287 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.759 their mouth about a b m. Dan, what are your thoughts here? 288 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:27.039 I think the problem most B two B marketers make with a B M is 289 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:33.720 they over index on personalization. Rather than being personal. The cool part about 290 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.759 knowing who what the companies are that you're marketing to, even knowing the individuals 291 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:40.279 in the company, which is the advantage. I fell in love with that. 292 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:41.640 I do, because in B two C you don't have that. B 293 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.000 Two c you just have to spray you know and just hope they come to 294 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:49.039 you. Unless you're working in like with millionaires or something, it's like you 295 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:52.319 don't you don't know who they are. You can't make it personal. It's 296 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.039 like impossible, but in B two B you can. So what companies did 297 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.319 was just be like, oh, hello, first name, how is it 298 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:02.759 going to insert a company name? Are you going to be interested in one 299 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:06.279 of our products? You're like that's not come on. Just because you can 300 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:10.160 insert their first name and company name doesn't make me more likely to like the 301 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:14.119 thing. Just because you can insert my company and my low my region onto 302 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:17.519 your website homepage. Oh, I'm so much more likely to like your product. 303 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.400 Come on, like, what were you thinking? Just because I don't 304 00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:22.799 know and I understand like they just because they can pull it off technically doesn't 305 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.039 make it actually effective, but they market it like it's effective. Like people 306 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:32.359 like to see personalization, but what the opportunity is to make it highly personal. 307 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:36.319 You know, I can now actually understand the company. I can look 308 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:38.960 at their if they're a public company, like their their past financial performance kind 309 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.119 of understand where they're at. Are they on the rise, are they struggling? 310 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:45.319 Are they on the are they going down or they kind of going back 311 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:48.279 and forth? How is their product doing? How is it perceived? I 312 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.079 can actually go look on social media to see how they're perceived. If I'm 313 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:53.960 selling them some kind of marketing service or something, I can get to know 314 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:57.119 the individual I'm selling to and follow them on social and interact with them and 315 00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:02.240 build relationship and send maybe something that's personal to them. I had someone sent 316 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:04.160 me a personalized gift. They found out I loved running, so they sent 317 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:07.400 me a book on running called born to run. I'd actually already read the 318 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:10.160 book. It's one of the if you're into running, so like one of 319 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.559 the best running books you could read. But it was a very thoughtful gift 320 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:15.240 and even though I don't had already listened to the book on audible, I 321 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:18.079 was like, Oh, they looked at my profile, they know I'm into 322 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:21.119 running. It's not something I talked about, but it is. It is 323 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:26.000 online and it was a very thoughtful gift and that's where being personal that's where 324 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:29.279 the power of a B M comes to play, because you're actually paying attention 325 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:33.759 to the real people and the real companies and making your message just so much 326 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:37.920 more relevant for them. You made me just think about like where I'm actually 327 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:42.440 wary of something. I'm very wary of automation, like just pushing me through 328 00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:45.680 something, and it partially because we're marketers right, so we're very aware, 329 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:48.680 oh, we're probably in a sequence right now, or we were you. 330 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:53.759 You just start like thinking about what's the back end of this? But when 331 00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:59.160 I get an email where it's like personalized and I put personalized in quotes, 332 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:03.960 there's such a lack of attention to detail and you know that you're just one 333 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:08.000 of a thousand getting this thing that you're like, I'm so less likely to 334 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:14.400 engage with that company moving forward like let alone. It doesn't leave me at 335 00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:18.559 neutral. It actually makes me feel pretty crappy. And so automation, I 336 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:22.920 think, has become something where I'm like in its best form, like if 337 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.640 it was serving up. I've talked to several CMOS who are like working companies 338 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:30.519 where their their content. It's like an automated content machine. Okay, they 339 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.839 read this, that's how much time on page we should offer up this. 340 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:37.960 Maybe in that context I would like it. But specifically with like email and 341 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:41.359 the sequences you put me in, a lot of times it just feels like 342 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:45.680 I'm just another one of the random numbers in your in your sequence. I 343 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:49.599 don't know if if you guys feel that at all either. Yeah, I 344 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:55.519 mean it might take on people sending bad emails. I guess it's it's more 345 00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:59.319 about like a one, like when I get a bad cold email. It 346 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:03.880 doesn't that's necessarily hurt as weird as it sounds, it doesn't tarnish the brand 347 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:07.279 for me because I spend so little, like you can detect them from a 348 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.680 mile away and they're deleted before I even like. So you could literally I 349 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:17.119 could have the same person sending me the same crappy cold email and it like 350 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:21.200 it doesn't because I don't even it doesn't even like register in my brain who 351 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:25.079 you are. So I don't give it the thought to even try to remember 352 00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:29.039 the company name. If I were to see like somebody from their team post 353 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:33.920 on Linkedin, I wouldn't have that negative association. That might be different with 354 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:38.039 like corporate kind of more like broadcast emails, not corporate, but broadcast emails, 355 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:41.000 where they're like hitting my inbox over and over and over again, or 356 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.200 like I can't figure out how to UNSUBSCRIBE, like because it actually caused me 357 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:48.559 pain in trying to like go through and try to figure out how to unsubscribe. 358 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:52.559 That might that triment the brand. But what I know we're we're harping 359 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.920 on on a B M a lot here, but obviously are. You know, 360 00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:03.119 I wrote a book about this oncept of content based networking and and using 361 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:11.160 your podcast to engage on a very one to one human level with decision makers 362 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:12.839 that your target accounts by asking them to be a guest on B two, 363 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:17.680 b growth, and so there are so many benefits that come out of that. 364 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:21.000 Obviously I think I was talking to it might have been even Dan he's 365 00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.480 in Orlando this week. We were talking two nights ago, I think, 366 00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:27.160 and it was just like it's you know, content based networking is is hard 367 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:33.400 in the same way that cold outbound is hard. If you're only thinking about 368 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.519 content based networking as like a sales like I want this guest to become a 369 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.519 client. Like if that is your sole purpose of doing a B M through 370 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:47.119 a podcast, prepared to not, you know, to be underwhelmed, because 371 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.319 the likelihood that so, when you reach out to to be a guest on 372 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:56.359 your show, is in market in that moment for your specific solution very, 373 00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.680 very rare. I mean we've done thousands of episodes. Very early do we 374 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:02.960 ask someone to be on B two B growth and then, like, I 375 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:06.200 think it's happened maybe twice where like within the next couple of weeks are like 376 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:10.079 hey, like, can we talk about having you guys produce our podcast? 377 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:12.480 Like very rarely does that happen. oftentimes it will be like a year, 378 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:18.599 two years, sometimes three or four years down the road, and there's relationship 379 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.480 that goes into that. Right, like you, you ask someone to be 380 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:25.279 a guest on the show, you now have have a conversation, like you 381 00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:27.759 know that their kids just went off to their first year at, you know, 382 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:33.839 Alabama or and so you get these insights and then, if you're connected 383 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:37.240 on Linkedin, you can now engage in a way that you couldn't engage with 384 00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:44.640 them before. And so I am still a huge advocate of leveraging podcasting for 385 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:49.680 relationship building and I think relationship building and a B M are much closer tied 386 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:52.759 to one another than a lot of people think. It just it's harder work 387 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:57.480 and it's not as like push button, easy to automate. But I still 388 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:02.039 think it's incredibly effective. When I look back now, you know, after 389 00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:06.720 building this business for seven years, the relationships I have in in B Two 390 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:11.759 b marketing have been a massive strategic advantage for us for a wide variety of 391 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:18.279 reasons. But I think that that approach to leveraging relationship building through asking someone 392 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:22.319 to collaborate with you on content is a huge still relatively, I think, 393 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:29.359 pretty untapped potential for a B M execution. Yep, I would totally agree, 394 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:33.160 and I think it's great to look at the positive side of creating content 395 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.880 with somebody else and how you can be personal there and play the long game 396 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:41.359 and and even just from a your network. It holds everything for you as 397 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.960 as a person, career wise, like the connections that you have, the 398 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:49.359 community that you are within. It opens doors for you, right. So, 399 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:55.599 like just allowing something like a podcast and creating content together to do that. 400 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.359 It opens up your mind. It's creating something of value for other people 401 00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.759 and you're now connected to this person long term that maybe you end up doing 402 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:07.240 business with. When you get that narrow focus. We've all heard a podcast, 403 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.279 and I mean I have clicked off several very fast when you could tell, 404 00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:14.440 okay, they're just kind of here to do their thing because this is 405 00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:19.039 gonna hopefully drive business, versus having a compelling conversation and being there to to 406 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:23.039 give away valuable content. It's just a different way of operating and that's obviously 407 00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:27.079 what we're going to advocate for. I think something I'm thinking about is you're 408 00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:30.720 explaining that, James was like we need to know, and we hit on 409 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:37.599 this last week too, like what are the buzzwords in our space right now? 410 00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:41.599 And, even if we're sort of doing something that could be labeled like 411 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:47.599 a B M, making sure that how we're talking about it and how we're 412 00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:51.480 thinking about it is not just in a way of like, okay, uh, 413 00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:52.799 you know, we're we're using this a B M strategy. When you 414 00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:56.519 start saying that and people already think it's a Buzzword, they're going to turn 415 00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:59.359 off mentally. Right. So, like how you go to market with the 416 00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.119 language you use is really important, and then how you check yourself on like 417 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:06.880 why are we doing those things? We're doing the underlying why. It's really 418 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:08.960 valuable to to come back to and that's something as a marketing team here at 419 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:14.240 sweet fish that we've been doing, thinking about our purpose and and our why 420 00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:17.519 and how we go to markets. So that was I'm really glad you brought 421 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:21.000 up content based networking and I also think it's just when it comes to a 422 00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:23.960 b m even though we do have a bit of that play, I don't 423 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:27.200 know that we would talk about it quite like that because we care more about 424 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:32.200 the people that were actually interacting with it. Actually, it's it's so strange 425 00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:37.319 to me. I actually do not give a crap if someone coming on to 426 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:40.920 be to be growth. I literally wrote a book about building relationships with your 427 00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:45.759 ideal buyers, but I could not care less whether or not they end up 428 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:48.839 buying from us or not. And that's it sounds so weird, but, 429 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:52.200 like I just I know all the other benefits that come from that. The 430 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:55.440 affinity that gets built when you get to have a meaningful, you know, 431 00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.119 minute conversation with somebody, learning about their family, like, learning about what 432 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:04.200 their points of you are, how they see the market, like the growth 433 00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:08.759 for me that I've experienced by now forming relationships with hundreds, if not thousands, 434 00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:12.440 of our ideal buyers. It has allowed us to iterate on our service, 435 00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:17.279 it's allowed me to figure out pricing things. They've connected me to other 436 00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:22.559 people in their network, like there's just so many benefits beyond that one specific 437 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:26.559 person becoming a client of sweet fish. But you have to go into it 438 00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:29.599 with that mentality or if you don't, people see right through it. Marketing 439 00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:34.240 takes courage and need good marketing. Obviously you're getting close to your clients and 440 00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:37.720 you're understanding their pain. We talked about all these things. It sounds Cliche, 441 00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:41.319 but that's ultimately what we're driving at right now too, is like this 442 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.240 is just another way of understanding where they're actually at and being able to add 443 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:49.759 something of value. So that's that's crucial. Dan, final thoughts here as 444 00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:52.359 we're starting to wrap up today. You know, I'm looking back through the 445 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:56.039 list of all these different trends and some part of me wants to say, 446 00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:59.440 like you know, it really takes a sermon to know which ones are the 447 00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:03.000 better ones. But at the same time, even even if some trends are 448 00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:06.799 more powerful than others, I think the thing that actually works the most is 449 00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:10.240 just going all in on just one or two or just picking a few and 450 00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:14.160 just like staying the course for longer than you think, going way harder than 451 00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:18.000 you know, and it's usually takes ten times the amount of work then you 452 00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:21.839 think it's going to take. Blogging, it doesn't work on one blog a 453 00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:25.680 week. You literally have to put in ten times more, or maybe at 454 00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:27.559 least fifteen a month. It's just a lot. Like you have to put 455 00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:32.559 in way more podcast episodes for your podcast to drive the massive results you're hoping 456 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:36.079 I can't say the same for Chat Bots, since that's an automated feature. 457 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:38.920 Like for most of these like you just have to go harder or spend way 458 00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:42.440 more time learning how to perfect it before you can actually expect it to drive 459 00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:47.400 zero, like a lot of results. So I think you can honestly win 460 00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.680 with any of these things, as long as you just stay focused, become 461 00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.319 a master at it. But you have to dedicate yourself to the journey of 462 00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:57.039 mastering how to do the thing. Even chat bots Dan like. If you 463 00:30:57.079 --> 00:31:02.759 go deep enough in chat bots and you're customizing each experience based on what page 464 00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:06.480 they landed on, based on the source of how they ended up coming there, 465 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:11.319 there's so many different journeys. So even within chatbots, if that was 466 00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:15.960 your focus, you could become exceptional at chatbots. You're right. If anybody's 467 00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:18.519 listening to that and you're like, oh, that's me, reach out, 468 00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:23.279 I'll do a whole episode with you. I want to see you. I 469 00:31:23.319 --> 00:31:26.960 just haven't seen more. Now I think of like playing guitar and like playing 470 00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:30.480 shows, that music is like something in my background, and I think about, 471 00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:34.039 like what they would tell me. Once you've played a song so much 472 00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:38.319 that you're sick of it, then like that's right when you like in a 473 00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:41.519 church setting, right like that's when the congregation is finally understanding the lyrics. 474 00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:45.240 They're finally they're finally like, Oh, I remember this one. It's the 475 00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:49.200 same thing with like expressing your unique P O v in a market, right 476 00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:53.000 like we're on linkedin saying essentially the same things over and over and over again, 477 00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:57.000 trying to package it just slightly different so we're not just straight up repeating 478 00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:01.680 ourselves. But right as we're getting sick of it is probably when some people 479 00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:07.839 are finally starting to get it. And so being like thinking about that and 480 00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:09.920 just being like okay, even if I'm sick of this method or this approach 481 00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:15.039 or this medium, like I'm barely getting my message across, because it's like, 482 00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:19.240 for a second in their day it's like like beat the same drum over 483 00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:22.000 and over and over again and when you're unsure, like maybe I've done this 484 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:25.039 too much, maybe just try to like a couple more times. I think 485 00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:30.039 that's one of the key takeaways from from this and as we think about trends, 486 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:32.920 like something to to take away. Well, it's been a really fascinating 487 00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.920 conversation. I love this one because it is so subjective and there's I'm sure 488 00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:40.240 there's some things that people are listening and they're disagreeing with. So if there's 489 00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.599 something you disagree with or something you want to add to the list of trends 490 00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:46.200 right now that you're just like frustrated by, I feel free to reach out 491 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:50.480 to James Dan Myself over on Linkedin. We'd love to hear from you. 492 00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.240 We'll be back next week with another one of these original research episodes and keep 493 00:32:54.279 --> 00:33:10.720 doing work that matters. We're always excited to have conversations with leaders on the 494 00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:15.920 front lines of marketing. If there's a marketing director or a chief marketing officer 495 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:19.440 that you think we need to have on the show, reach out email me, 496 00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:22.599 Benji dot block at Sweet Fish Media Dot Com. I look forward to 497 00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:23.160 hearing from you.