The Dashboard of Truth with Monica Sullivan

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:10.589 Welcome in to be toob growth. Excited for today's episode. We have Monica 2 00:00:10.669 --> 00:00:15.310 Sullivan here. She's the chief marketing officer at demand science. Monica, welcome 3 00:00:15.429 --> 00:00:18.190 to be to be growth. There'll to be here, Venie, absolutely so. 4 00:00:18.469 --> 00:00:24.300 You have extensive experience building, leading teams driving business success. You've worked 5 00:00:24.339 --> 00:00:29.579 at companies like constant contact GNET. So I think this conversation is really going 6 00:00:29.620 --> 00:00:34.899 to be insightful. Monica, let's start here thinking of your kind of current 7 00:00:35.060 --> 00:00:40.009 just daytoday, work at demand science as chief marketing officer. What excites you 8 00:00:40.130 --> 00:00:45.210 right now in your current role? Well, the most exciting thing that we're 9 00:00:45.289 --> 00:00:49.490 tackling that, and it really is still a big pain point, is solving 10 00:00:49.810 --> 00:00:54.039 the chasm between sales and marketing and really, you know, it's steeped in 11 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:56.799 data challenges, but there's a whole lot more baggage in there, and I 12 00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:00.679 have some stats from research we've done to share with you as well. So 13 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:03.310 it's kind of an age old thing, but I think it's just interesting to 14 00:01:03.349 --> 00:01:07.349 see where we're still miles apart and where we're actually getting closer and realizing, 15 00:01:08.189 --> 00:01:11.629 you know, that there's opportunity to fix this and we want to. Yeah, 16 00:01:12.269 --> 00:01:18.230 the topic that will kind of drill on today does touch right there, 17 00:01:18.230 --> 00:01:21.939 right where. It's like marketing and sales. It's this constant sort of friction. 18 00:01:22.140 --> 00:01:26.700 You hear a lot of talk on Linkedin or in the Bob space around 19 00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:30.939 that. How do we allow line and so excited to get your insights from 20 00:01:30.939 --> 00:01:36.810 a marketing perspective, as you are a leader. What have you experienced in 21 00:01:37.010 --> 00:01:42.049 your marketing history where you see that friction kind of firsthand? Yeah, I 22 00:01:42.209 --> 00:01:46.890 mean it is everywhere. So it's not something that's people should feel personally badly 23 00:01:46.930 --> 00:01:49.560 about. It's really and he like I said, the age old thing where 24 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:56.040 marketing continues to feel as though sales is just not picking up on the great 25 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:59.480 leads that are being sent over. They're not closing them fast enough or even 26 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:04.989 following up. There's just a misunderstanding about why these great leads don't seem to 27 00:02:05.069 --> 00:02:09.349 be great from a sales perspective. whose responsibility is or who creates the better 28 00:02:09.430 --> 00:02:15.629 leads, whether it's sales or marketing? You know, marketings perspective. Maybe 29 00:02:15.500 --> 00:02:20.379 you know someone picks up the phone because we've created the air cover of awareness 30 00:02:20.539 --> 00:02:23.539 for you so that they're ready for you and marketing will say I'm calling them 31 00:02:23.699 --> 00:02:28.620 and that's why they're coming back to the website. So there's just this really 32 00:02:28.740 --> 00:02:34.210 interesting dynamic that's always happening and I don't think it's about who gets credit because 33 00:02:34.210 --> 00:02:37.810 at the end of the day we are one general, you know, revenue 34 00:02:37.810 --> 00:02:43.210 jetterating team. We're supposed to be aligned on that front and that's where teams 35 00:02:43.250 --> 00:02:49.520 can be the most successful is when everyone is working toward one revenue target, 36 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:53.840 where the KPIS are aligned, where sales and marketing both feel responsibility and are 37 00:02:54.560 --> 00:03:00.669 even bonused on revenue. So it's really everybody's responsibility. So that's definitely a 38 00:03:00.789 --> 00:03:02.909 first step, but it's just, you know, it has we have data 39 00:03:02.990 --> 00:03:07.990 that supports what we are already know that a fifty eight percent of marketers will 40 00:03:07.990 --> 00:03:13.099 say the leads I delivered a sales are better, and fourteen percent of the 41 00:03:13.139 --> 00:03:16.740 salespeople agree, you know. So it's just a big gap. Oh okay, 42 00:03:16.900 --> 00:03:21.699 so I feel like there is some movement overall in the B tob space 43 00:03:21.740 --> 00:03:25.060 where we're seeing revenue teams, where we're seeing that conversation. We're going to 44 00:03:25.139 --> 00:03:29.689 have sales and marketing in the same on the same calls in the same beatings 45 00:03:29.969 --> 00:03:36.770 we but what if sales and marketing are still viewed in organizations listening to this 46 00:03:36.810 --> 00:03:39.210 as two completely different departments? What are you telling them? We need to 47 00:03:39.370 --> 00:03:44.759 stop doing this and maybe we need to start trying this. What would you 48 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:49.639 say, Monica? You know a lot of it is stop just the personal 49 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:53.639 opinions and start getting together with meetings and what we've developed on our team. 50 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:58.629 And what I recommend for everyone is a dashboard of truth. You know, 51 00:03:58.710 --> 00:04:00.389 at the end of the day, if you have a data source of truth 52 00:04:00.629 --> 00:04:05.550 of what's happening in the pipeline, that you're using the common version of your 53 00:04:05.629 --> 00:04:12.419 ideal customer profile, that you agree on what the lead scoring metrics are and 54 00:04:12.500 --> 00:04:15.339 what constitutes a lead score of one versus five, you know, at the 55 00:04:15.379 --> 00:04:19.379 end of the day, the data tells the story and and while this opportunity 56 00:04:19.420 --> 00:04:23.220 to keep refining it, while you need to keep refining it, that that's 57 00:04:23.500 --> 00:04:27.449 the communication and process. So you need the data, you need to be 58 00:04:27.569 --> 00:04:31.209 talking all the time about what's happening and aligning on why certain leads don't seem 59 00:04:31.209 --> 00:04:35.370 to be scoring out the way they showed or why sales isn't following up the 60 00:04:35.449 --> 00:04:41.240 certain leads that score higher and then the process around how do you use the 61 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:45.680 data, particularly from a marketing perspective, inbound leads that are permission based, 62 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:50.920 penning that data with information that says that helps the salesperson prioritize and getting better 63 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:56.069 and better at using data and insights to get conversion to, you know, 64 00:04:56.189 --> 00:05:00.509 happen more quickly and when everyone is aligned on that and feel like one team 65 00:05:00.550 --> 00:05:05.149 together, that's where the magic is. Yeah, so you said the Dashboard 66 00:05:05.189 --> 00:05:09.980 of truth. That's where I want to start to ask you some follow up 67 00:05:09.980 --> 00:05:14.579 questions because I think it's so important that you have something common that you're looking 68 00:05:14.579 --> 00:05:18.300 at that assesses what's working and then maybe what's not right now. So talk 69 00:05:18.420 --> 00:05:23.970 me through what brought you to this idea of we need a dashboard of truth 70 00:05:24.170 --> 00:05:29.089 and what is what's on there? Yeah, great question. So for a 71 00:05:29.209 --> 00:05:32.689 while, even within sales force, the marketing team had their own dashboard and 72 00:05:32.730 --> 00:05:38.600 the sales team had a different board and the sales dashboard showed a much different 73 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:44.759 attribution, much lower attribution of marketing griven sales into outcomes and the marketing dashboard 74 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:50.029 unsurprisingly, had a higher attribution marketing. Would look at potentially an attribution win. 75 00:05:50.230 --> 00:05:54.029 Know of you know, something was a lead that came in and it 76 00:05:54.149 --> 00:05:59.750 closed within certain you know, let's say ninety days, that would count sales 77 00:05:59.949 --> 00:06:03.069 only one to account the the first deal that came in the door and if 78 00:06:03.189 --> 00:06:06.300 that didn't close, that was the end of the funnel. And so, 79 00:06:08.180 --> 00:06:11.180 you know, that was one sort of a ha moment for us and for 80 00:06:11.379 --> 00:06:15.500 many teams, you know, understanding kind of how we think about what counts 81 00:06:15.540 --> 00:06:18.370 as a marketing qualified lead and the attribution. The other piece of it is 82 00:06:18.529 --> 00:06:25.410 that, you know, we didn't have an automated scoring system. So the 83 00:06:25.529 --> 00:06:30.329 sales team would score leads and they would manually, you know, put the 84 00:06:30.449 --> 00:06:35.800 scoring into their dashboard and and determine whether or not something was a low score 85 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:43.560 or high score. And we weren't using data necessarily to help improve that quality 86 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:47.829 metric help them prioritize the leads that showed more promise based on either, you 87 00:06:47.949 --> 00:06:53.670 know, either technographic information, so installs that tells the salesperson, Hey, 88 00:06:53.750 --> 00:06:59.189 this person has other competitors, you know, in their on their site, 89 00:06:59.389 --> 00:07:03.420 so you can tell that embedded text act that they could be a good prospect 90 00:07:03.459 --> 00:07:08.139 for us, or, in some cases you know our clients are using other 91 00:07:08.220 --> 00:07:12.420 metrics and ways to qualify, like revenue. If it's not a certain size 92 00:07:12.540 --> 00:07:15.379 company, maybe they're not going to be able to pay for, you know, 93 00:07:15.459 --> 00:07:17.769 the services based on our size average deal. So there's a lot of 94 00:07:18.129 --> 00:07:20.930 ways you can use data to help qualify and not just have it all the 95 00:07:21.009 --> 00:07:27.410 manual. The other challenge we had was that there wasn't a quick enough response 96 00:07:27.850 --> 00:07:31.040 to leads. So back in two thousand and eleven, you may remember this, 97 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:35.000 but Howard Business Review came out with a study that said you've got to 98 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:39.439 get to, you know, two leads quickly in the B tob space was 99 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:43.920 like back in the day was twenty four hours. Well, today it's within 100 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:47.550 minutes, and we did some research that I had mentioned earlier. It said 101 00:07:48.110 --> 00:07:53.189 eighty percent of stills and marketing teams say that they don't get back to people 102 00:07:53.189 --> 00:07:58.740 within twenty five minutes, and so there's still a big opportunity for getting to 103 00:07:58.860 --> 00:08:03.100 people faster, and one of the reasons why that doesn't happen is often because 104 00:08:03.819 --> 00:08:07.500 there's this question of how qualified the lead is and concern that they may not 105 00:08:07.579 --> 00:08:11.379 be a fit. So the more you can use data to drive the right 106 00:08:11.540 --> 00:08:16.089 hot leads to sales more quickly and then spend time with either a lead development 107 00:08:16.129 --> 00:08:20.449 rapper or a sales development wrap to qualify further if that's needed. You can 108 00:08:20.490 --> 00:08:24.769 at least get to the hot deals more quickly and you know, make sure 109 00:08:24.850 --> 00:08:30.439 when someone is in front of their computer searching, looking for solutions, you're 110 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:33.600 there and and you've probably seen it yourself. You know the best customer, 111 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:39.600 that's sorry, the best sales organizations are coming back to you within moments with 112 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:41.750 either an email or call or both. Once you fill in a form, 113 00:08:43.509 --> 00:08:46.470 you know they're right there to have a conversation. Yeah, and you got 114 00:08:46.590 --> 00:08:50.029 to walk that fine line right, because you might get it. You might 115 00:08:50.070 --> 00:08:52.870 get it right, you might reach out in the first twenty five minutes, 116 00:08:52.909 --> 00:08:56.299 but that person better know their stuff, they better be personable. There's like 117 00:08:56.500 --> 00:08:58.220 so many things that then you have to be good at as a salesperson. 118 00:08:58.259 --> 00:09:01.779 So there's so many things we could dive into even on that part of the 119 00:09:01.899 --> 00:09:05.419 process. But you said eighty percent don't get back in twenty five minutes and 120 00:09:05.620 --> 00:09:09.370 I want to I want to talk about that for a second. What does 121 00:09:09.490 --> 00:09:13.450 that first touch in your mind need to kind of like look like? Is 122 00:09:13.490 --> 00:09:18.409 there anything there that you would give as like an insight? Because we all 123 00:09:18.529 --> 00:09:22.049 want better quality leads, right, we all want more quality leads, but 124 00:09:22.129 --> 00:09:24.360 then also that first touches is important. So I thought maybe we just talked 125 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:28.039 about that for a second. Yeah, and I will say I'm you know, 126 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:31.240 have to give creds to our sales organization. Not only do we have 127 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:35.200 a great sales development team and they do all the right training and we've got 128 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:39.149 truly a great sales team, and that's a lot of process and work, 129 00:09:39.509 --> 00:09:43.590 you know, by the salesops group, by the sales support teams. It's 130 00:09:43.629 --> 00:09:48.470 not just sales, but it is about understanding the person's need. So they 131 00:09:48.710 --> 00:09:52.419 fill out the form for a reason and our team focuses on what on the 132 00:09:52.500 --> 00:09:58.620 why? Not necessarily the idea that they need us for their data, for 133 00:09:58.700 --> 00:10:03.059 their pipeline support. You know, we obviously deliver be to be data and 134 00:10:03.139 --> 00:10:09.129 help them with with permission based leads, but there's a why specifically they're looking 135 00:10:09.129 --> 00:10:13.250 for help from us that we try to get under and it's not so it's 136 00:10:13.570 --> 00:10:18.169 it's sets up that more consultative engagement. It's not just hey, you were 137 00:10:18.210 --> 00:10:20.919 looking for data, I have it. You know. So it's much more 138 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:26.240 of a conversation and obviously there's a lot of training behind that. But you 139 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:30.879 mentioned personal. Like it is personal. These people are trying to solve a 140 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:35.629 business knee. They're trying to grow. There's still a lot of opportunity to 141 00:10:35.710 --> 00:10:41.870 improve the data that's out there provide more accurate data. It can be expensive, 142 00:10:41.110 --> 00:10:45.230 you know, so they're trying to make sure that they make a great 143 00:10:45.269 --> 00:10:48.950 choice about the data that they use in the partner that they pick to help 144 00:10:48.149 --> 00:10:52.740 feed the top of their funnel to help improve, you know, how the 145 00:10:52.820 --> 00:10:56.059 quality leads. They can get in and obviously convert faster. So they're trying 146 00:10:56.100 --> 00:11:01.179 to make sure that they can succeed in their own role and pick a great 147 00:11:01.179 --> 00:11:05.049 vendor that is, you know, the right price as well. Right. 148 00:11:05.409 --> 00:11:09.529 Taking us back to the dashboard, I'm thinking through some of those issues that 149 00:11:09.649 --> 00:11:13.529 you guys were having. When it's separated out, and you mentioned mqls. 150 00:11:15.570 --> 00:11:20.120 Talk me through once you're more data driven, once you're actually looking at some 151 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:24.279 of that, how did you work to go from this is a problem on 152 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:28.519 to dashboards to now this is actually what an mql is, and define that 153 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:35.269 better. Yeah, so we started with a couple of different personas ICPs, 154 00:11:35.509 --> 00:11:39.509 you know, ideal customer profiles and that's something that we really talk about as 155 00:11:39.549 --> 00:11:43.789 a team a lot, making sure that we're pushing on that. You know, 156 00:11:43.909 --> 00:11:46.870 do we really feel like this is the right person and we're finding them 157 00:11:46.909 --> 00:11:50.700 in the right places? As we do targeted marketing, as we, you 158 00:11:50.779 --> 00:11:54.299 know, obviously retarget and make sure that they're the messages make sense based on 159 00:11:54.419 --> 00:11:58.700 where they've been searching. Like I said, we look to see there's any 160 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:03.649 other signals that they're providing that show that they're really in market for the product, 161 00:12:03.809 --> 00:12:07.850 that they're at least consuming content, that there's potentially even something that we 162 00:12:09.129 --> 00:12:13.330 have is called confirmed connect where, you know, did they pick up a 163 00:12:13.409 --> 00:12:16.360 cold call in the neck in the last three thousand six ninety days? Did 164 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:20.799 they respond to an email? So they're truly more engaged and potentially a better, 165 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.480 higher priority for sales because they're engaging and they're going to pick up the 166 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:28.399 phone. You know, sales people want efficiency and they're going to prioritize somebody 167 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:31.350 who will pick up the phone faster. So we look at all of those 168 00:12:31.350 --> 00:12:35.549 things when we're looking at the dashboard of you know, how quickly we getting 169 00:12:35.549 --> 00:12:39.549 back to people? Are we are we within kind of our sales process and 170 00:12:39.629 --> 00:12:43.940 getting getting that connect with the sale with a customer faster? You know, 171 00:12:45.019 --> 00:12:50.419 are we able to move people through the pipeline and get more qualified leads? 172 00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:52.379 So in our case it's a kind of a simple score card of, you 173 00:12:52.419 --> 00:12:56.220 know, one hundred and twenty five. So fours and fives are the most 174 00:12:56.220 --> 00:13:01.129 highly qualified and ones and two there are not. But we keep the scoring 175 00:13:01.529 --> 00:13:09.289 and the dashboard to the sales ops people and our team. But we don't 176 00:13:09.289 --> 00:13:13.440 want the sales people to know whether something was scored two, three or four 177 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.720 or two. We want them to if they get the lead. We want 178 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:20.559 them to follow up every time they get the lead because systematically and process wise, 179 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:24.600 their hand a lead, it should be qualified by a timid gets to 180 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:28.909 them, because earlier on we were realizing that when they could see what the 181 00:13:28.990 --> 00:13:33.309 score was in sales force, if it was a lower score, they were 182 00:13:33.389 --> 00:13:37.789 deprioritizing and they were not they were not falling up as quickly. So there's 183 00:13:37.789 --> 00:13:43.139 a whole method to the madness around what people see and what we've determined as 184 00:13:43.179 --> 00:13:46.019 a team. If it's if it's qualified, you should follow up. So 185 00:13:46.419 --> 00:13:50.220 there's some of those things that happen that you work on as a team over 186 00:13:50.379 --> 00:13:56.450 time and improve them. So it's data. It's obviously the process that decides 187 00:13:56.169 --> 00:14:01.210 which which salesperson. You know, we route the different leads to. So 188 00:14:01.370 --> 00:14:05.690 we have a strategic team that takes on, you know, those larger accounts 189 00:14:05.809 --> 00:14:09.960 we have on our radar and commercial team that will take on all the others. 190 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:15.799 You know, we really focus on software technology and BE TO BE SERVICES 191 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.879 COMPANIES. So, you know, we're very clear on who our customer is. 192 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:24.159 That is a fit that typically has the budget for the things that we're 193 00:14:24.509 --> 00:14:28.309 that you know that we provide because they have a need and they you know 194 00:14:28.470 --> 00:14:33.470 that you know their business is really looking for kind of that high quality lead 195 00:14:33.509 --> 00:14:37.309 at the top of the funnel, as well as some additional data for sales. 196 00:14:37.429 --> 00:14:43.100 So but we do look constantly at we improving. Are Qualified leads? 197 00:14:43.779 --> 00:14:46.740 Is there a gap? And we do look at the things that don't make 198 00:14:46.779 --> 00:14:50.259 sense, and so we meet, you know, as a team regularly to 199 00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:54.370 say, you know, here the leads that should have been more qualified. 200 00:14:56.129 --> 00:14:58.409 Let's look at why they weren't. Let's improve our process, let's improve our 201 00:14:58.450 --> 00:15:05.169 targeting from a marketing standpoint. Let's change our messaging so and really challenge each 202 00:15:05.169 --> 00:15:09.440 other. You know, if we think that hypothesis is that certain leads, 203 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.639 you know, should be qualified based on where we find them and what kind 204 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:18.759 of what keywords are coming in on and what businesses and if they're not closing, 205 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:22.909 we have that hard conversation about you know, is it you know there's 206 00:15:22.909 --> 00:15:26.830 something that is different with the Reps. you know, is it training needed 207 00:15:28.029 --> 00:15:31.110 or is it really yeah, you know what we're doing in marketing and how 208 00:15:31.149 --> 00:15:35.779 we're how we're delivering the leads, but it's that conversation that helps us improve 209 00:15:35.860 --> 00:15:39.740 and then always challenging. Maybe, you know the funnel is expanding, maybe 210 00:15:39.779 --> 00:15:41.980 there are more people interested in your solution. So you don't want to just 211 00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:48.580 focus on the ideal customer profile that you've always had. You know, as 212 00:15:48.620 --> 00:15:50.570 a team at working together and you realize that there are some outliers. You 213 00:15:50.649 --> 00:15:56.210 can have an opportunity to identify a bigger total, a rest of a market, 214 00:15:56.210 --> 00:16:00.929 because you're looking at the data together and you're talking versus just looking at 215 00:16:00.970 --> 00:16:07.679 the old definition of your f your personas. Hey, everyone, if you've 216 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:11.360 been listening, to be to be growth for a while. 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All right, let's get back into the show. 232 00:17:26.269 --> 00:17:30.339 I want to go back to the pain point, that is the separate 233 00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:36.420 dashboards between marketing and then this the separate sales dashboard, and I'd love for 234 00:17:36.539 --> 00:17:38.539 you to just say, what are those the key elm elements? If someone 235 00:17:38.619 --> 00:17:41.539 was to walk away from our conversation go I need to start a dashboard that 236 00:17:41.660 --> 00:17:45.049 has it all together, like this is going to be something we're going to 237 00:17:45.089 --> 00:17:48.009 walk away with. It's going to build it out that we can reference, 238 00:17:48.130 --> 00:17:52.329 sales can reference and marketing can reference. What are some of those key elements 239 00:17:52.329 --> 00:17:56.289 we need to be aware of? Yes, so agreeing first and foremost on 240 00:17:56.849 --> 00:18:00.960 kind of lead scoring, right, so what constitutes a qualified lead and what 241 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:07.359 doesn't, and being willing to revisit that model on a regular basis as you 242 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.519 refine it together, because it does change based on, you know, your 243 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:15.150 marketing tactics, based on where we are in the world, you know, 244 00:18:15.269 --> 00:18:18.349 based on you know, your opportunity to sort of find new business over time, 245 00:18:18.430 --> 00:18:23.309 depending on the size and, I guess, sophistication of Your Business. 246 00:18:23.589 --> 00:18:26.940 You know, learning your market, you know. So making sure you're open 247 00:18:26.980 --> 00:18:32.619 to adjusting that lead scoring model. The second is attribution, right. I 248 00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:37.380 talked a little bit about that to say, where do you attribute a marketing 249 00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:41.569 touch in the process? Forster put out some interesting stats, but you know 250 00:18:41.730 --> 00:18:45.769 it's there's there's certainly a lot out there that says that there's more touch points 251 00:18:45.809 --> 00:18:52.529 now than ever before in the customer journey. Right. So when you think 252 00:18:52.529 --> 00:18:56.480 about how many touches, you know it could be up to twenty touches or 253 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:03.039 more. Marketing touches them in, you know, an email or display ad. 254 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.759 You know, there's there's those kind of daytoday people are going to google. 255 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:10.789 They're coming back, you know, maybe to a paid google search. 256 00:19:10.869 --> 00:19:12.150 You know, they might have found you on organic and they're coming back and 257 00:19:12.190 --> 00:19:15.549 paid because they remember your name. There's the sales touches, you know, 258 00:19:15.630 --> 00:19:19.869 there's the sales email, not in addition to the marketing email. So there's 259 00:19:19.869 --> 00:19:23.740 all of these conversations that are happening that are part of the journey and so 260 00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:30.059 aligning together. On the attribution, it could be a percentage at first, 261 00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:33.420 it could be, you know, different ways of looking at the attribution models, 262 00:19:33.460 --> 00:19:37.569 but saying, how much credit does a form fiel get based on the 263 00:19:37.690 --> 00:19:42.769 source, but also the overall touches that you can measure and there's ways you 264 00:19:42.849 --> 00:19:48.970 can measure that you know today better than ever before to understand what makes sense 265 00:19:48.049 --> 00:19:51.930 and and maybe how much weight you want to put toward it, as well 266 00:19:51.970 --> 00:19:56.319 as you know, agree if there's any credit given to repeat business. Like 267 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:00.640 a marker would say, if you never would have had that customer in the 268 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:03.279 first place, how can we only get credit for the first deal? And 269 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:08.109 sales would say I sold them every other deal and they we built a relationship 270 00:20:08.750 --> 00:20:12.390 and the customer experience. People might say they never would have had that second 271 00:20:12.430 --> 00:20:15.950 deal if I had up, hadn't had done a good job of executing on 272 00:20:17.069 --> 00:20:22.779 the campaign and being there. They wrap, you know. So really aligning 273 00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:26.740 on attribution is important. Obviously getting the best cleanest data that you can. 274 00:20:27.420 --> 00:20:32.940 You know, into how you might a pen and a rich your your opt 275 00:20:33.059 --> 00:20:36.650 in forms and how what you might know about somebody based on being able to 276 00:20:36.730 --> 00:20:41.049 add better industry information, better title information, you know, understanding your buyer 277 00:20:41.130 --> 00:20:45.210 group, because there's more than one person buying, so they're making the decision. 278 00:20:45.250 --> 00:20:48.089 I would say. So you might have one person who the decision maker, 279 00:20:48.529 --> 00:20:52.279 but there are multiple people in the buyer group. So marketing has to 280 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:56.200 get in front of all of them and sales might need to have conversations with 281 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:00.319 the influencers as well as the ultimate buyer and so agreeing together on you know 282 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:04.829 what that means in terms of the influencer buyer group? Do you have that 283 00:21:06.509 --> 00:21:10.789 somehow on the dashboard when you're saying you're understanding the buying group? How does 284 00:21:10.869 --> 00:21:14.509 that sort of filter into when you're thinking of that dashboard? Yeah, it's 285 00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:19.019 a great question. So we know the conversations that are happening with influencers versus 286 00:21:19.059 --> 00:21:26.180 the ultimate decision maker and most people have in their crm will have information like 287 00:21:26.259 --> 00:21:29.900 that that they can tag and set up. So you know that it's a 288 00:21:30.019 --> 00:21:34.289 bigger buyer group and and you know small companies might have this even and larger 289 00:21:34.410 --> 00:21:37.849 companies are just maybe different sizes, are different types of titles involved in the 290 00:21:37.890 --> 00:21:44.609 buyer decision, as well as obviously the budget size. But knowing whether it's 291 00:21:44.609 --> 00:21:48.079 an influencer meeting, our dashboards will say, you know, influence our meeting. 292 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:53.640 It'll kind of qualify in the sales dashboard around the funnel and the the 293 00:21:53.759 --> 00:22:00.599 sales process will kind kind of a conversation was whether it was a slam dunk 294 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:06.509 type of conversation, whether it was Luke Rom kind of medium conversation in terms 295 00:22:06.509 --> 00:22:10.390 of how likely it would is to close. You know. So there's different 296 00:22:10.390 --> 00:22:14.269 ways that bill. You know, the dashboard will kind of say like how 297 00:22:14.390 --> 00:22:17.859 likely is this to turn into revenue and x amount of days? You also 298 00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:22.099 learn your sale cycle, so you would know, you know, our average 299 00:22:22.180 --> 00:22:26.619 deal closes in x amount of days or months. The average deal size. 300 00:22:26.740 --> 00:22:32.089 You want you look at all those things together because it's also important and you 301 00:22:32.130 --> 00:22:37.609 also want to know is there a difference? Are This sales generated leads higher 302 00:22:37.690 --> 00:22:41.930 value than the marketing generated leads? Why is that? You know, if 303 00:22:41.970 --> 00:22:45.039 you're if someone's coming in through an organic lead, as it is a different 304 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:49.279 than a lead that sales has spent months trying to real you know, get 305 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:53.759 into this one one business. So that's one other metric that you also have 306 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:57.119 to look at as a team to say why is that? Because in some 307 00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:03.029 cases it's a little skewed based on the types of clients that maybe your strategic 308 00:23:03.630 --> 00:23:07.869 sales teams are going after, you know, larger technology companies, you know. 309 00:23:07.990 --> 00:23:11.069 So you have to break that into you know, maybe traunch has to 310 00:23:11.150 --> 00:23:15.339 say, is it the same view of the average deal size that you're looking 311 00:23:15.339 --> 00:23:17.940 at? You know, do you need to break out kind of your top 312 00:23:18.140 --> 00:23:22.980 tier targets versus kind of your core commercial businesses or even by industry? So 313 00:23:23.059 --> 00:23:26.410 there's a lot of ways to look at the data and then a lot of 314 00:23:26.490 --> 00:23:30.529 businesses, and we certainly did this a constant contact. You also want to 315 00:23:30.529 --> 00:23:33.730 be looking at your attrition rates, you know, like what's happening with churn, 316 00:23:34.450 --> 00:23:37.329 you know, and also for, you know, different cohorts. So 317 00:23:37.650 --> 00:23:42.920 over time companies can get better at understanding you know, is there a difference 318 00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:48.319 in leads that came on board with, you know, a messaging and a 319 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:52.279 value proposition, of brand position six months ago versus now? Is there a 320 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:57.029 difference in their churn rates? Is there a difference in their average deal size 321 00:23:57.029 --> 00:24:00.349 and lifetime value? So there's depending on the type of business you are, 322 00:24:00.349 --> 00:24:04.910 there's a lot of metrics that can help you understand how you're messaging, how 323 00:24:06.029 --> 00:24:11.380 your overall go to market strategies impacting your brain you know, impacting your outcomes, 324 00:24:11.420 --> 00:24:15.779 and make changes based on that going forward to make sure that you're obviously 325 00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:19.660 improving your churn rates. Let me ask you a follow up question on that. 326 00:24:21.140 --> 00:24:26.490 How often do you go over attribution rates and churn with your your team 327 00:24:26.089 --> 00:24:30.609 as a whole. Well, the sales and marketing team meets on a regular 328 00:24:30.609 --> 00:24:33.170 basis every other week. We're looking at all of the data. Yeah, 329 00:24:33.289 --> 00:24:37.720 so that's a number you would go out over that often not the churn rates 330 00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:41.680 as much with for our business, but we differ. We definitely talk about 331 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:47.359 overall health and KPI is on a on a monthly basis, but a Sass 332 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:51.720 business would look at them weekly, if not daily, depending on what's happening 333 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:56.190 in the business. And you have, you know, when you're assass business 334 00:24:56.509 --> 00:25:00.509 like a constant contact where everything is kind of an online sign up and there's 335 00:25:00.509 --> 00:25:06.990 less of an outbound sales model, you're definitely much more aware of exactly how 336 00:25:06.990 --> 00:25:10.259 many leads are coming in and how many need to convert on a daily basis. 337 00:25:11.140 --> 00:25:14.539 As you look at a be tob business like ours that has both a 338 00:25:14.900 --> 00:25:19.380 subscription and, you know it, ongoing services business model, kind of higher 339 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:25.970 value be tob it's, you know, really about kind of aligning on those 340 00:25:26.089 --> 00:25:32.369 turn metrics as well as what's creating that ongoing over and over again, retention 341 00:25:32.490 --> 00:25:36.039 and why people are staying with us are as just you know, as important, 342 00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:38.640 as you know why some of the ones might be leaving, but it 343 00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:42.559 helps you change your ICP. That's the reason why sales and marketing are going 344 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:48.640 through that conversation. Is If there is some churn happening that you didn't expect, 345 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.309 you know, maybe the ideal customer profile isn't what we thought, maybe 346 00:25:52.349 --> 00:25:59.349 there's a persauna that, and I'm somewhat talking illustrative here, but if it's 347 00:25:59.390 --> 00:26:03.710 somebody who's a lower deal size, they might be have a greater propensity to 348 00:26:03.789 --> 00:26:06.220 churn. That doesn't mean it's bad as part of your business, but you 349 00:26:06.339 --> 00:26:08.940 just need to know that because it will help you, yeah, in terms 350 00:26:08.980 --> 00:26:15.420 of how you might be targeting and how you might kind of prioritize those deals 351 00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:18.130 versus some that are larger, as well as just understanding your overall scale of 352 00:26:18.329 --> 00:26:22.690 what how you need to fill the funnel at every level, because it does 353 00:26:22.769 --> 00:26:27.970 help. HMM. So there's some really great key elements here that you've outlined. 354 00:26:29.130 --> 00:26:33.680 So lead scoring, attribution, clean data collection, understanding the buying group 355 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.160 right, that the dynamics their deal scoring, and then we want to be 356 00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:44.880 aware of churn. I wonder more of a question from like what kind of 357 00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:48.509 pushback do you get when you move to this sort of dashboard of truth, 358 00:26:48.390 --> 00:26:52.150 like for your marketing team or your sales team, because I would assume this 359 00:26:52.309 --> 00:26:56.630 is a little bit of movement for both right, because you're meeting in the 360 00:26:56.670 --> 00:27:00.190 middle. But what do you experience when you implement something like this? Yeah, 361 00:27:00.190 --> 00:27:03.539 you know what I mean. On the one hand, the numbers don't 362 00:27:03.579 --> 00:27:08.579 lie. On the one hand the numbers are aligned with what you set up 363 00:27:08.619 --> 00:27:12.299 as the rules. So you do have to keep looking at the numbers and 364 00:27:12.380 --> 00:27:18.130 challenging that exactly what they're telling you and and make sure that you're not just 365 00:27:18.369 --> 00:27:22.490 looking backwards at how you set up the ideal customer profile and how you set 366 00:27:22.529 --> 00:27:26.450 up your scoring models. But continue to refine them. You know, as 367 00:27:26.490 --> 00:27:30.200 data gets better around, you know what we're learning about customers and they're in 368 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:33.920 market behavior, what we know about them in terms of their you know, 369 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:38.880 parmographics, demographics of the customer and the contact data gets better. As we, 370 00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:42.319 you know, keep improving that information, we should be able to get 371 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:48.750 better and better at aligning whether someone should score a higher score versus a lower 372 00:27:48.789 --> 00:27:52.910 score in the spectrum. But, as I said, unless you're having that 373 00:27:52.069 --> 00:27:56.789 next conversation. In our model with sales, you know, you don't know 374 00:27:56.950 --> 00:28:02.980 that they're necessarily not able to be an even more important customer in terms of 375 00:28:03.019 --> 00:28:07.539 revenue spend. You know, then then somebody who scored a five. You 376 00:28:07.619 --> 00:28:10.779 know, it's really you have to have yourself to have the love of conversation 377 00:28:11.500 --> 00:28:15.130 and our model, if you're in kind of an SMB SASS model, you 378 00:28:15.250 --> 00:28:19.410 may not have that conversation. So you better have the data because someone might 379 00:28:19.450 --> 00:28:25.490 be just choosing to be a you know, an immediate trial and by the 380 00:28:25.569 --> 00:28:29.839 product, and that's where your turn data comes in to play a lot more, 381 00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:33.079 because if they're not going to start, if you're not engaging them through 382 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.640 email in an in product and you don't make sure that they take those important 383 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:42.150 steps to become an avid user of the product, they could churn because you're 384 00:28:42.150 --> 00:28:45.150 not taking all those right steps or you're maybe not getting the right person in 385 00:28:45.230 --> 00:28:48.630 the funnel. So it really depends on the type of B Tob business that 386 00:28:48.710 --> 00:28:52.109 you're in, for sure, but the data can help. But at the 387 00:28:52.150 --> 00:28:56.779 end of the day it can't only be about the data. Yep, yeah, 388 00:28:56.819 --> 00:29:00.180 it's got to be good mix. I really appreciate your insights. This 389 00:29:00.259 --> 00:29:06.819 is a really insightful conversation with Monica Sullivan. Give us a just a quick 390 00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:10.089 summary here as we start to close, of what you guys do at demand 391 00:29:10.130 --> 00:29:11.529 science. Would love to hear a little bit about Your Business and what you 392 00:29:11.569 --> 00:29:15.730 guys are up to. Yeah, now it's it's an exciting ride so far 393 00:29:17.009 --> 00:29:19.769 and a journey ahead. You know, we've been growing like crazy. We 394 00:29:21.130 --> 00:29:25.559 have over one two hundred customers and we at our core, or are be 395 00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:30.759 to be data company. But ultimately we help our customers identify their best audience, 396 00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:36.359 we help them activate, primarily opt in permission leads and get them in 397 00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:40.230 their funnel and we help them convert, you know, certainly with accurate data 398 00:29:40.230 --> 00:29:45.029 that helps them understand how likely they are to convert. Things like I've mentioned 399 00:29:45.230 --> 00:29:49.309 confirmed connect and understanding where they've engaged with phone calls and emails can help, 400 00:29:49.349 --> 00:29:53.460 as well as other buyer signals, you know, and ultimately help them grow. 401 00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:57.700 You know, we're an advocate to the marketer and the salesperson. There's 402 00:29:57.740 --> 00:30:02.579 a lot there are a lot of players in the space that aren't delivering necessarily 403 00:30:02.619 --> 00:30:07.250 the same qualified lead that we are. Just given that we work harder to 404 00:30:07.329 --> 00:30:11.769 help filter out and make sure that the right title, the right ideal customer 405 00:30:11.769 --> 00:30:15.529 profiles being met and what we delivered to them, and it's a fun time. 406 00:30:15.809 --> 00:30:18.809 You know, you've probably seen a lot about the category of B to 407 00:30:18.849 --> 00:30:22.559 be data, and there's certainly a still a lot of room to do a 408 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.720 better job, for the sales and marketing teams to come together with great data 409 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.079 to really get aligned. You know, I'm excited about being able to deliver 410 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:33.480 that, as we all are. Yeah, I'm excited for the future. 411 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:37.990 I think dad is in an interesting place. Marketing and sales alignment is an 412 00:30:37.029 --> 00:30:41.509 interesting place and I'm glad there are more and more conversations like this happening because 413 00:30:41.549 --> 00:30:45.430 hopefully it will just spur so much more growth for the companies that are listening 414 00:30:45.470 --> 00:30:48.950 to this and for our organizations. Right, ultimately, that's the goal, 415 00:30:49.019 --> 00:30:53.059 is growth. So, Monica, thank you for joining us on this episode. 416 00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:56.420 For those that want to stay connected with you, how can they do 417 00:30:56.660 --> 00:31:00.539 that? Yeah, so for sure, Monica. Doubt Sullivan, a demand 418 00:31:00.579 --> 00:31:06.369 sidencecom and my linkedin always there, so happy to help engage in network. 419 00:31:06.690 --> 00:31:10.210 It's been a great experience. I'd loved being here with you, BEN J 420 00:31:10.450 --> 00:31:15.410 so looking forward to coming back to talk about BEB growth topics. That's right. 421 00:31:15.930 --> 00:31:18.519 Thank you so much for joining us and yeah, you can connect with 422 00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.720 me as well on Linkedin. Just Search Benjie Block. We're always having these 423 00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:26.160 types of conversations here on B tob growth, so if you haven't subscribed to 424 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:29.559 the show, be sure to do that and I will be back very soon 425 00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:36.829 with another episode. Keep doing work that matters. Is the decisionmaker for your 426 00:31:36.869 --> 00:31:40.950 product or service a BEDB MARKETER? Are you looking to reach those buyers through 427 00:31:40.990 --> 00:31:45.750 the medium of podcasting? Consider becoming a cohost of BB growth. This show 428 00:31:45.910 --> 00:31:51.140 is consistently ranked as a top one hundred podcast in the marketing category of Apple 429 00:31:51.259 --> 00:31:56.099 Podcasts, and the show gets more than a hundred and thirtyzero downloads each month. 430 00:31:56.619 --> 00:32:00.059 We've already done the work of building the audience, so you can focus 431 00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:05.450 on delivering incredible content to our listeners. If you're interested, email logan at 432 00:32:05.490 --> 00:32:06.730 sweetfish Mediacom.