Stop Waiting Until It’s Perfect

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740 Yeah, 2 00:00:05.640 --> 00:00:09.110 welcome back to be to be growth. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder 3 00:00:09.110 --> 00:00:13.660 of Swedish Media and we are joined today by Bill Kirkus. He's the VP of 4 00:00:13.660 --> 00:00:18.290 global marketing for Honeywell Bill. I I've been looking forward to this 5 00:00:18.290 --> 00:00:23.650 conversation for a few weeks now. And when we when we chatted offline, we 6 00:00:23.650 --> 00:00:27.880 were talking about something that you were really passionate about. We were 7 00:00:27.880 --> 00:00:34.880 talking about this idea that we have to stop waiting until it's perfect before 8 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:39.890 we get a marketing campaign to market. So I'm pumped for this conversation. 9 00:00:39.900 --> 00:00:44.190 Welcome to the show. Thanks James. I appreciate you having me. Yeah. Did you 10 00:00:44.190 --> 00:00:47.160 know the whole mantra here is don't let perfection get in the way of good 11 00:00:47.160 --> 00:00:50.820 enough. Yes. You know, we kind of talked about perfection almost being an 12 00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:55.030 enemy. But I laugh with that intro because if you're talking about your 13 00:00:55.030 --> 00:00:58.460 spouse, would you want to marry someone good enough or if you're talking to 14 00:00:58.460 --> 00:01:02.490 your kids about grades, you tell them, you know, just do good enough in school. 15 00:01:02.500 --> 00:01:06.690 So it's a it's a tricky topic that that I am passionate about. I'm glad we're 16 00:01:06.690 --> 00:01:10.700 talking about it today. So thanks for having me. Yeah. So yeah. So tell us, 17 00:01:10.710 --> 00:01:14.460 just give us a little bit of context. Why is this something, you know, 18 00:01:14.460 --> 00:01:17.080 Honeywell for those that aren't familiar? You guys are Fortune 100, 19 00:01:17.080 --> 00:01:23.320 right? Yeah. So Fortune 100 brand, uh, you know, massive company. Why is this 20 00:01:23.320 --> 00:01:28.010 something you're so passionate about? To me, it's the evolution of marketing. 21 00:01:28.010 --> 00:01:32.510 And so, you know the simple way to describe that as in the old days, we 22 00:01:32.510 --> 00:01:35.900 are all really subjective marketers, right? I think this ad looks good. I 23 00:01:35.900 --> 00:01:39.650 think this color is right? I think this message might hang and now everything 24 00:01:39.650 --> 00:01:43.530 is digital. You can measure everything, right? And so the idea here isn't to 25 00:01:43.530 --> 00:01:47.150 say good enough, meaning the quality is just gonna be average and you leave it 26 00:01:47.150 --> 00:01:51.880 alone and let it go. The idea here is that you can launch quickly with what 27 00:01:51.880 --> 00:01:55.930 you have and quickly optimize based on the results of the KPs, you're getting 28 00:01:55.930 --> 00:02:01.460 back. And so that's kind of a, you know, the idea behind good enough is it just 29 00:02:01.460 --> 00:02:04.590 doesn't stop. You don't launch and walk away. Like in the old days we all 30 00:02:04.590 --> 00:02:08.889 called it what? Pray and spray or spray and pray, right? You know, mass 31 00:02:08.889 --> 00:02:12.910 marketing and hope people call here. You can really fine tune and add to 32 00:02:12.910 --> 00:02:18.910 your campaigns almost hourly if you really wanted to. So you you were 33 00:02:18.910 --> 00:02:23.470 telling me on our last call, this kind of three part methodology, you know, 34 00:02:23.480 --> 00:02:30.320 it's good enough test and then perfect. Can you walk us through and maybe share 35 00:02:30.320 --> 00:02:36.920 some examples of what that methodology has looked like? Honeywell? Yeah. And 36 00:02:36.920 --> 00:02:41.850 so, you know, a good example is, um, so I'm just a big fan of engage and see 37 00:02:41.850 --> 00:02:45.300 that that I guess you could call that a buzzword, right? But you're right. So 38 00:02:45.300 --> 00:02:48.610 you put a campaign together and I'll preface this with you. Do kind of have 39 00:02:48.610 --> 00:02:52.890 to obsess about voice of the customer, right? What do they need and value 40 00:02:52.890 --> 00:02:57.050 proposition. Right. Those you got to, you know, spend a little bit of time. 41 00:02:57.050 --> 00:03:01.940 But once you have those two things, you can launch a campaign and again test it, 42 00:03:01.950 --> 00:03:05.280 right, that we all have a B testing capabilities now. So you're getting 43 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:08.800 feedback back on that advertisement or that message that you're doing. You 44 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:13.040 have ways to check websites, right? Heat maps and all the where people are 45 00:03:13.040 --> 00:03:16.280 going and what they're surfing on and then you launch it. And then again, you 46 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:21.080 add and optimized to it. And so I'm a big fan of this. So I I use it and we 47 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:25.070 can talk later about even in hiring, I kind of apply this method, which again 48 00:03:25.070 --> 00:03:28.060 sounds a little weird, right? All this person is good enough, but I can walk 49 00:03:28.060 --> 00:03:32.580 you through that, but a good example would be um, we have an interesting 50 00:03:32.580 --> 00:03:35.370 campaign that's actually not even a sales and revenue campaign. Were 51 00:03:35.370 --> 00:03:39.980 experimenting again, engage in C right? And we're trying to work on a 52 00:03:39.980 --> 00:03:44.150 technology that lets airplanes take off and land faster, but it's an upgrade 53 00:03:44.150 --> 00:03:48.480 that both airports and airplanes need to do. And so, um number one, our 54 00:03:48.480 --> 00:03:54.090 target market here are airports governors, you know, staff, local staff 55 00:03:54.100 --> 00:03:57.700 government, right? It's not your typical sales job in terms of targeting 56 00:03:57.700 --> 00:04:01.610 a customer. And what we did there was we said, well, let's let's test this 57 00:04:01.610 --> 00:04:05.620 thing, Right, let's start out, we did just a really kind of bytitle linked in 58 00:04:05.630 --> 00:04:10.480 very, very targeted campaign. And we watched how that went over the next 24 59 00:04:10.480 --> 00:04:13.960 hours. And sure enough, we were really that surprised. But we were getting 60 00:04:14.040 --> 00:04:18.459 really good website engagement and even request for more information on some 61 00:04:18.459 --> 00:04:22.400 content. We gated about the topic. So, we kind of knew we were onto something. 62 00:04:22.400 --> 00:04:25.870 Okay? So then we're saying, okay, what else can we do besides linked in? Well, 63 00:04:25.870 --> 00:04:28.680 you know, there's a whole bunch of different retargeting tactics you can 64 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:33.270 do uh contextual advertising a lot of those different things. So we started 65 00:04:33.270 --> 00:04:37.460 mixing that in. And then we said, ok, well, now, what about um what can we do 66 00:04:37.460 --> 00:04:40.920 pr wise? Well, what about uh contributed article that talks about 67 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:45.600 the benefits both to passengers and airports, right? in terms of faster 68 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:49.080 takeoffs and landings. So now we're gonna mix in an editorial and 69 00:04:49.080 --> 00:04:53.150 contributed article. And so you just keep going and doing these things and 70 00:04:53.150 --> 00:04:56.510 as you're doing them, you keep looking at the Lincoln results. Are they 71 00:04:56.510 --> 00:05:01.130 working, are they working better than some other types of social media or 72 00:05:01.130 --> 00:05:04.820 contextual advertising we're doing? And then you take that and re optimize it 73 00:05:04.820 --> 00:05:08.960 to the audience is um, that are showing the most success in terms of engagement. 74 00:05:09.840 --> 00:05:13.790 So, ahead of this campaign, I'm assuming you had a pretty good idea of 75 00:05:13.790 --> 00:05:17.550 what success was gonna look like. Do you have that pretty well laid out? Or 76 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:21.970 is it uh, is a lot of qualitative stuff that you're looking at to assess 77 00:05:21.970 --> 00:05:25.760 whether this is something worth continuing down? Yeah, that's what it's 78 00:05:25.760 --> 00:05:28.350 a good question on this one. I'm gonna, I'm gonna really tell you, we 79 00:05:28.350 --> 00:05:32.800 experimented and so certainly success was making sure we got that product in 80 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:37.180 some local government and airport trials and to the extent that there 81 00:05:37.180 --> 00:05:40.470 needs to be legislation. We did that. But I'm going to tell you it was really 82 00:05:40.470 --> 00:05:43.210 kind of an experiment, right? We didn't sit there and say we need this many 83 00:05:43.210 --> 00:05:46.770 visits this many number of impressions because we were targeting audiences. We 84 00:05:46.770 --> 00:05:52.130 don't often do. But another campaign we did. Um, we, we've developed ultra 85 00:05:52.130 --> 00:05:57.940 violet wand. So think of a one that you wave over a seat, an airplane seat and 86 00:05:57.940 --> 00:06:01.550 it helps with germs, right? It's a great product during and post. Covid to 87 00:06:01.550 --> 00:06:05.730 clean an airplane really quickly and really easily. But that one, again, 88 00:06:05.740 --> 00:06:10.230 that's a good example of where we launched the campaign added tactics. Um, 89 00:06:10.230 --> 00:06:13.680 had really good messaging. Like I just told you the value props pretty easy, 90 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:17.580 right? It's, you know, we really quick time and low cost. You can clean your 91 00:06:17.580 --> 00:06:22.160 planes, um, from, you know, from germs of covid and other types of flues and 92 00:06:22.170 --> 00:06:26.100 bugs that we would all catch. But that one we are looking at the results and 93 00:06:26.100 --> 00:06:30.070 we had very specific goals. We wanted this number impressions about this 94 00:06:30.070 --> 00:06:33.320 number of websites, you go down the sales funnel and this is the revenue 95 00:06:33.320 --> 00:06:37.340 and lead opportunity pipeline we want to create. And that's actually an 96 00:06:37.340 --> 00:06:40.820 example of great product, great awareness. I'm sure it was great 97 00:06:40.820 --> 00:06:45.110 branding for us and Honeywell, but we weren't generating the leads in revenue. 98 00:06:45.110 --> 00:06:49.390 And so we kept optimizing and tweaking. And that's an example where we felt we 99 00:06:49.390 --> 00:06:52.650 ran its course and you know, and just said, look, we're gonna have to cut 100 00:06:52.650 --> 00:06:55.880 bait and divest in this area because we're just not generating the leads 101 00:06:55.880 --> 00:07:00.990 that we wanted to. So you have to have the, the guts to stop things. You know, 102 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:03.610 when things aren't working, you have to have the guts to stop them just as much 103 00:07:03.610 --> 00:07:09.170 as you want to start or optimize as well. Absolutely. So with was this 104 00:07:09.180 --> 00:07:14.520 approach, this idea of, you know, good enough, then let's test and then let's 105 00:07:14.520 --> 00:07:19.950 perfect. Was this something that you had to do a lot of coaxing to get your 106 00:07:19.950 --> 00:07:24.360 team on board with internally to be okay with this? Yeah, I wouldn't even 107 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:27.940 say we're very good at it. I think we're okay at it. Everyone can tell you 108 00:07:27.940 --> 00:07:32.320 we want to do it right. But if you look at the first of all, any of us that 109 00:07:32.320 --> 00:07:36.130 work in marketing were perfectionist, right? You can't have a typo and add 110 00:07:36.140 --> 00:07:40.650 your press release has to be factual. Your website can't go down right? Five 111 00:07:40.650 --> 00:07:44.790 nines reliability. So we're trained from our lives to be perfect. Um, and 112 00:07:44.790 --> 00:07:49.500 so when you go and tell someone launch it this way, you get 80 90% of the way 113 00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:53.690 there and then perfected as you go along, huge culture change. And then on 114 00:07:53.690 --> 00:07:58.110 top of that at Honeywell, the aerospace division I represent were managed by 115 00:07:58.110 --> 00:08:02.200 pilots and military. Most of our managers are pilots and military 116 00:08:02.210 --> 00:08:06.630 experience. We'll think about that, right? And you know, safety first. 117 00:08:06.630 --> 00:08:11.380 Don't take risks. Don't go outside the box. Just a number of things you run up 118 00:08:11.380 --> 00:08:14.200 against that. If you go into a meeting with some engineers, right? An 119 00:08:14.200 --> 00:08:17.080 engineering company and say I want to launch this because I think it's good 120 00:08:17.080 --> 00:08:22.480 enough. The, you know, the heresy looks you get are pretty crazy. So it's an 121 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:27.800 ongoing behavior, behavior change. Yeah. So so bill for other companies folks 122 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:31.260 listening to this, they're wanting to implement this approach. They know 123 00:08:31.270 --> 00:08:36.059 we've we've got to get more out there so that we can actually experiment more 124 00:08:36.070 --> 00:08:38.740 because there's probably something out there that's working that we just 125 00:08:38.740 --> 00:08:43.309 haven't tried yet. And unless we we really build the muscle of getting more 126 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:47.990 out, then we're leaving lots of opportunity on the table. How could 127 00:08:47.990 --> 00:08:51.470 these companies that want to implement this methodology? That's good enough? 128 00:08:51.470 --> 00:08:57.620 Test perfect methodology. How how could you see them getting this wrong? I 129 00:08:57.620 --> 00:09:02.570 think it's something you set up front first is which is it's easy to say this 130 00:09:02.570 --> 00:09:07.080 just opens up more, you know, we'll have more capacity to do more work. And 131 00:09:07.090 --> 00:09:11.440 you could fall into that trap of still watering things down so much that 132 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:15.440 you're not getting tangible input. For example, the work that's being spent 133 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:20.190 now is less so on the up front, but on the optimization and the analytics and 134 00:09:20.190 --> 00:09:23.790 all the optimizing you do when your senior analytics. That's quite a lot of 135 00:09:23.790 --> 00:09:28.420 work to go optimize and change your campaign is real time data is coming in. 136 00:09:28.420 --> 00:09:32.180 So that would be the first trap is don't think this is just a way to do 137 00:09:32.180 --> 00:09:36.710 more. I just think that the work shifts a little bit. Um the second thing is, 138 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:41.140 is All of us can get into analysis paralysis, right? Oh, I'm seeing a 139 00:09:41.140 --> 00:09:47.540 trend um that this webcast is great for generating website, videos and leads. 140 00:09:47.540 --> 00:09:52.750 But this ad isn't running, let's go do 15 pages and you know, a deep dive on 141 00:09:52.750 --> 00:09:56.520 why that is well, if you're waiting to three weeks for that report on that 142 00:09:56.530 --> 00:10:00.430 analysis, you could have probably done two more webcast and reinvested some of 143 00:10:00.430 --> 00:10:04.000 your money. That wasn't working really well. Right. It's just this constant 144 00:10:04.010 --> 00:10:08.950 optimization. And then the last one which we do struggle with is automation 145 00:10:08.950 --> 00:10:12.460 is your friend here. If you if you don't have automation, you're now 146 00:10:12.460 --> 00:10:16.280 manually pulling a bunch of reports. Right? I'm going to adobe or google 147 00:10:16.280 --> 00:10:19.880 analytics. I'm going to my social media sites. I'm going here, I'm going there. 148 00:10:19.880 --> 00:10:24.790 Salesforce Marcato. It can be heavy, heavy workloads. So automation is 149 00:10:24.790 --> 00:10:28.570 definitely your friend when you're trying to do this makes sense. So I 150 00:10:28.570 --> 00:10:32.880 want to come back to something you alluded to earlier bill around how this 151 00:10:32.880 --> 00:10:39.550 methodology can apply to hiring, what's that look like for you. Yeah. And it's 152 00:10:39.550 --> 00:10:43.490 something I learned years ago. I was I was at Intel before before Honeywell 153 00:10:43.490 --> 00:10:47.850 and Intel has and I still think they have it they have this amazing awards 154 00:10:47.850 --> 00:10:51.440 ceremony once a year and they awarded the employees that do, let's say the 155 00:10:51.450 --> 00:10:57.110 top 5 to 10 best results of the company, right? But at the time, the very last 156 00:10:57.110 --> 00:11:02.490 result was an award for someone who failed and fails, not the right word. 157 00:11:02.490 --> 00:11:05.890 It was really a risk taking award, right? But literally it was someone who 158 00:11:05.890 --> 00:11:09.600 took a risk and try to start a business, tried to start something and it failed. 159 00:11:09.610 --> 00:11:14.090 And that really, that really captured me. I really thought that was a really 160 00:11:14.090 --> 00:11:18.110 neat thing. And so you talk about hiring, right? I think we've all 161 00:11:18.110 --> 00:11:21.760 probably been in interviews, especially again at the Fortune 500 level where 162 00:11:21.770 --> 00:11:26.580 you've got an interview with 5, 10, 15, 20 people, right? Or the HR person 163 00:11:26.580 --> 00:11:31.580 three times. And and that and Again, it's the focus on perfection. If I have 164 00:11:31.580 --> 00:11:35.760 15 people talking, I have very little risk that I'm hiring the wrong person, 165 00:11:35.760 --> 00:11:39.650 right? But you know, especially right now, the way the economy is and how 166 00:11:39.650 --> 00:11:43.920 we're all competing for talent. If I wait two months to try and hire someone, 167 00:11:43.930 --> 00:11:47.690 you know, if they're that good, they're going to find another job. And so the 168 00:11:47.690 --> 00:11:52.350 philosophy that we have is um higher fast and fire fast and again, fires a 169 00:11:52.350 --> 00:11:56.490 bad word. But as long as you're setting that expectation up front, hey, we're 170 00:11:56.490 --> 00:11:59.890 gonna do three or four interviews in depth ones, right? We're gonna do our 171 00:11:59.890 --> 00:12:02.660 due diligence, but we should be able to know if we're gonna be able to make an 172 00:12:02.660 --> 00:12:06.470 offer to you in a week or two weeks. With the understanding though, that we 173 00:12:06.470 --> 00:12:09.780 want to see how you perform in the job and if you're not doing well, we'll 174 00:12:09.780 --> 00:12:13.860 agree to part ways. Um, I just think that's a much better way to get talent 175 00:12:13.860 --> 00:12:17.490 on board, teach that lesson right up front, right? Hey, we're going to move 176 00:12:17.490 --> 00:12:21.620 fast good enough. And let's see how we optimize or go down the road. I think 177 00:12:21.620 --> 00:12:25.790 that's a good message right out the door to Yeah, So I've heard Sara 178 00:12:25.790 --> 00:12:29.240 blakely, the founder of Spanx, talk about how one of the most formative 179 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:33.270 things that her father did for her was going around the dinner table every 180 00:12:33.270 --> 00:12:38.600 night asking all of the kids how they failed that day. And it just taught her 181 00:12:38.610 --> 00:12:43.790 that failure is not a bad thing, failure is the thing we're trying to, I 182 00:12:43.800 --> 00:12:47.770 mean the more we fail, that means more we're trying and the more like the more 183 00:12:47.770 --> 00:12:53.000 at bats were taking. And so I love that call back to that because I, ever since 184 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:56.290 I've heard her say that I've told that story probably, I don't know, 10 or 15 185 00:12:56.290 --> 00:13:00.710 times since I've heard it because it is such a powerful concept. So getting a 186 00:13:00.710 --> 00:13:04.340 little bit more granular here when you've got a role. So you've got the 187 00:13:04.340 --> 00:13:09.250 job description like how granular are you getting on the metrics that you're 188 00:13:09.250 --> 00:13:13.220 expecting from, the person that you're hiring so that you can set clear 189 00:13:13.220 --> 00:13:17.330 expectations to say, hey, this is this is what success is going to look like 190 00:13:17.330 --> 00:13:22.220 when you're here. And if if we're not seeing these results, then you know, 191 00:13:22.220 --> 00:13:25.840 we're going to have to part ways pretty quick. Yeah, that's one thing I really 192 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:29.950 admire about Honeywell. We call it an mos managing operating system. The 193 00:13:29.950 --> 00:13:34.820 company's managed really well in that fashion. Right? And so it's an easier 194 00:13:34.820 --> 00:13:39.280 answer for me to give you now at Honeywell because I can typically tell 195 00:13:39.280 --> 00:13:43.860 someone uh, this is a campaign manager job. It's in this area, let's call it 196 00:13:43.860 --> 00:13:48.290 business jets, right? We expect plus or minus. You know, the whole funnel, 197 00:13:48.300 --> 00:13:51.740 right? All the way down to sales, lead opportunity pipeline and revenue 198 00:13:51.750 --> 00:13:55.350 impressions, that kind of thing. So we're pretty, we're pretty nerdy. But 199 00:13:55.350 --> 00:13:59.190 you can set those expectations up high again, acknowledging that if the budget 200 00:13:59.190 --> 00:14:02.530 changes the market changes, we're not going to hold your feet to the fire to 201 00:14:02.530 --> 00:14:06.070 a goal, that something has changed dramatically. But for the most part 202 00:14:06.070 --> 00:14:10.690 were pretty specific on the on the job and the very specific deliverables that 203 00:14:10.690 --> 00:14:15.560 are that are due on it. Bill, this has been fantastic. I really appreciate you 204 00:14:15.560 --> 00:14:18.840 sharing, sharing this with our listeners. If there's somebody 205 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:22.850 listening to this and they want to stay connected with with you. What's the 206 00:14:22.850 --> 00:14:25.960 best way for them to go about doing that? I answer to just about anyone and 207 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:30.990 anything. I probably, I probably just shoot me maybe, I don't know, work 208 00:14:30.990 --> 00:14:35.360 email. Why not? Right. It's a honey job. And so I go by William dot Kirkus said 209 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:38.940 Honeywell on that Bill. Maybe they hide from people that way, But that's 210 00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:43.710 probably the best way. But seriously, I mean social media linkedin. However you 211 00:14:43.710 --> 00:14:48.240 want to find me. I'm a pretty easy guy to find wonderful. Well, Bill again, 212 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:52.540 thank you so much for hanging out with us today. I know our listeners are 213 00:14:52.540 --> 00:14:56.110 going to get a ton of value from this. And so I really appreciate you. Well, I 214 00:14:56.120 --> 00:15:01.270 appreciate the tip on Spanx with my Children. Perseverance is a big deal 215 00:15:01.280 --> 00:15:05.230 for me. Yes, learning about failures and how you persevered is awesome. So I 216 00:15:05.230 --> 00:15:09.040 think I've learned more from this than your listeners are going to hear from 217 00:15:09.040 --> 00:15:12.310 me. Thank you. I appreciate that. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I 218 00:15:12.310 --> 00:15:15.750 appreciate it. Thanks James. Take care of. Mhm. Mhm. 219 00:15:18.040 --> 00:15:18.360 Yeah. 220 00:15:19.640 --> 00:15:23.820 At Sweet Fish. We're on a mission to create the most helpful content on the 221 00:15:23.820 --> 00:15:28.390 internet for every job function and industry on the planet. For the B two B 222 00:15:28.390 --> 00:15:32.430 marketing industry. This show is how we're executing on that mission. If you 223 00:15:32.430 --> 00:15:35.900 know a marketing leader, that would be an awesome guest for this podcast. 224 00:15:35.910 --> 00:15:39.470 Shoot me a text message. Don't call me because I don't answer unknown numbers, 225 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:45.960 but text me at 4074 and I know 33 to 8. Just shoot me. Their name may be a link 226 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:49.910 to their linkedin profile and I'd love to check them out to see if we can get 227 00:15:49.920 --> 00:15:53.050 them on the show. Thanks a lot.