April 28, 2022

Scaling Mental Models, with Kyle Williams

In this episode, Benji talks to Kyle Williams, Founder of Brickstack.

As marketing leaders, we feel the ongoing tension between what we say the product does vs what the product ACTUALLY does and how we go about addressing the market. Our best SDRs and CSRs know intuitively, from practice, how to best address potential buyers. Today Kyle shows us how to get that useful information from the heads of our team members into a repeatable system.

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:13.279 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be to be growth. 2 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:19.719 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm your host, Benjie Block, 3 00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:24.679 and today we are thrilled to have Kyle Williams joining us. He is the 4 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:28.679 founder of brick stack. Kyle, welcome in. Hey, thanks for having 5 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:31.320 me on, Bingie. Great to be here. It is great to have 6 00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:35.640 you here and our listeners are probably wondering why did Benjie invite a brick stacker 7 00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:41.399 onto a marketing podcast? So, for those that might be new to you, 8 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:45.799 kyle, tell us a little bit about the problem that brick stack is 9 00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:49.079 seeking to solve and then maybe what led you to that. Yeah, for 10 00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:52.679 those listening and not seeing us, I'm not covered in concrete dust or anything. 11 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:57.640 It's not physical bricks, metaphorical ones, and the problem that we're solving 12 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:02.759 is what I call shadow ICP which is really the difference between what your ideal 13 00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:07.359 customer profile deck looks like and what's in everyone else's heads. And typically it's 14 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:11.519 very different, and it might be different based on who you're talking to, 15 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:15.280 if it's sales or SDRs or CS or marketing or product or someone else. 16 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:18.359 And so a lot of what we do is help to understand what is your 17 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:22.040 shadow ICP and then how do we go find and map your what we would 18 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:26.159 now call your true ICP to the mark? Yeah, man, that is 19 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:30.319 a big task, so thank you for taking it on. Yeah, let's 20 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:36.719 start here. So what a commonly held belief that you think many have on 21 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:42.840 how a's or SDRs do their job that you may be passionately disagree with, 22 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:49.200 Kyle? Yeah, it starts with this debate on relevance versus personalization, which 23 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:52.680 is really prominent on Linkedin. I don't think it's a true, true debate, 24 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:55.799 but it really comes down to how do you customize what you say? 25 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:59.799 Are you going to look for something like where they went to school, which 26 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:02.560 is personalization, or you going to look for something about their business mechanics, 27 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:07.400 which is more relevance? And I think the actual problem with the debate itself, 28 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:12.000 as true or not as it might be as a debate, is that 29 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:15.840 it is a messaging question and I think if you're asking should I be focused 30 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:21.919 on relevance versus personalization at the Messaging Stage, then you've already lost. And 31 00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:23.360 what I mean by that is, if you take a step back, the 32 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:29.240 three components of any great good of market is targeting and going after the right 33 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:34.599 folks the right time, messaging or recommunicating in a way that resonates and scale. 34 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:38.680 Can I do this enough to hit by CACTIL L TV ratio right? 35 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:43.680 And the problem is a lot of the industry built for that last step, 36 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:46.719 and that last step is important right, for not hitting our metrics and are 37 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:51.319 unit economics, then we don't have a business. But if we start with 38 00:02:51.479 --> 00:02:54.759 scale, then we have a lot of assumptions built in which which that is 39 00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:00.879 what this question of relevance versus personalization asks, which is I must say something 40 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:04.919 to this person. And if I must say something to this person, should 41 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:08.639 I be personalized or should I be relevant? And and the reason personalization wins, 42 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:12.319 even though what never wins on a Linkedin poll, is because it's the 43 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:15.639 most consistent to find. Yeah, and the most of separate in answer. 44 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:19.080 Yes, right, I know where to go to look for where you went 45 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:22.080 to school and I know not everybody went to the same school, so I 46 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:25.479 will be saying something roughly different to everyone and I will find it really quickly. 47 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:29.800 But really we should say relevance is something we look for in targeting, 48 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:31.759 and then I can just talk about it. Right, I can just show 49 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:35.759 up and say, hey, your shoes are worn out, you should get 50 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:38.120 new shoes, and instead of saying, like, you went to school and 51 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:42.000 do you want to talk about shoes? And you wore shoes in school and 52 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:44.800 yes, it is right, of the war out of it, make it 53 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:47.879 work. Yeah, exactly. I thank you for walking that out for a 54 00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:52.879 second. Okay, as marketing leaders, I think we feel attention and we 55 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:54.879 what we would say is that, and this is how you explain to me. 56 00:03:54.919 --> 00:03:58.919 I think this is so true. Right, what we say the product 57 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:02.639 does verse what the product actually does. Those are things that we're kind of 58 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:06.719 walking through and working through. How do we actually go about addressing that in 59 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:14.039 the market, though, and the way that we think about it? Sometimes 60 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:17.399 it is like the twenty percent best of our strs, right, they have 61 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:23.879 these spidy senses of sort and they're carrying the weight because they know what to 62 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:27.240 do, how to do it, why they're doing it. But many times 63 00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:29.839 that's like what we leave it up to, as long as they can do 64 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:34.720 it a great you've seen this issue play itself out. Talk US through how 65 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:39.439 you've seen this issue and how it's kind of come to your attention. Yeah, 66 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:43.519 it's I sometimes say I'd started brick stack because I was constantly running into 67 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:46.160 brick walls, and so the way I came to this was just seeking it 68 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:49.120 over and over and over again, which is it's not an explicit thing. 69 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:53.199 Like no one sits down and says we're not going to figure out our ideals 70 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:57.399 ideal customer profile, we're just outsource it to twenty folks that we just hired 71 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:00.279 out of school. Like no one sits down and does that intentionally. I 72 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:05.839 think the reason that we see that is twofold one is that it's hard sometimes 73 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:10.680 for us to see the nuance of what our ideal customer profile really looks like. 74 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:13.560 So it's hard to really tease out. You know, we build a 75 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:16.319 product or we launch a new product line or we have a hypothesis for maybe 76 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:19.920 a new set of customers to go do expansion, and we take that to 77 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:24.759 market and the first batch of customers come in and sometimes it's hard to parse 78 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:27.360 out what is the thing that brought them in in the first place. And 79 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:29.839 if you go enrich them, they're all be to be SASSINS. We go 80 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:32.480 ah Ho, it's be to be Sass but it's actually be to be Sass 81 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:35.879 that came to you then. So I think that's that's a big part of 82 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:41.319 the problem is we don't necessarily know what that true definition looks like, or 83 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:45.199 it's hard for us to piece that out. I think two is it's comes 84 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:46.759 down to who has the feedback loops right. So your sales team as a 85 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:49.480 certain set of feedback loops that's different from your product team, different from your 86 00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:54.240 marketing team, different from your CS teams working with the customers, and so, 87 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:57.360 using sales as the example, right there talking to these folks and they 88 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:01.040 get to hear in the moment what that nuanced pain looks like or that nuance 89 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:04.480 situation that caused them to take the call in the first place. And then, 90 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:08.160 if they stack enough of those, well you what we describe as a 91 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:12.879 spighty sense is their ability to predict how a call will go before it happens, 92 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:15.399 because they can do a bunch of quick research and say, AH, 93 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:16.800 I think they're in this scenario and this is how we're going to go and 94 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:20.040 I'm going to ask the six questions instead of the twelve questions because I just 95 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:24.399 have a sense of where it's going to go. But that is really hard 96 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:28.360 to take out of that person's head and put it back into the core definition. 97 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:31.079 We do lose the relay race in the baton pass and that's very much 98 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:34.720 true inside of organizations. Is these handoffs. When you have those conversations where 99 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:39.800 you're teasing out where your say, shadow ICP is, and you get those 100 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:43.759 disconnects between, you know, the sales saying the website doesn't match. Those 101 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:46.879 are things that one they affect your results right because the handoff that happens between, 102 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:51.240 say, marketing and sales, if there's confusion about the conversation we just 103 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:55.800 had and what our marketing materials say, that's going to add friction to our 104 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:59.680 ability to close. If the customer is sold and they go to CS and 105 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:03.000 see us has a different understanding of what's customers trying to accomplish and the customer 106 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:05.959 has a different understanding of what they're trying to accomplish versus what the product can 107 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:10.759 actually do, then now we have friction in time to value, which has 108 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:15.319 massive implications on that revenue retention and our ability word of mouth and other other 109 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:19.800 factors. I think even sometimes more hidden and insidious is that it breaks the 110 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:25.639 feedback loops because if I'm as marketing, spending a lot of money to point 111 00:07:25.639 --> 00:07:29.560 at the market in a certain way, but our true ICP is maybe more 112 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:33.759 special, scific and different. Then I'm getting feedback that is actually not useful 113 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:38.680 and and may not know it, and so I might spend money in a 114 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:42.480 different way or we might end up building the wrong product for the wrong team, 115 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:45.040 because suddenly, you know, they're asking for like we need the debts. 116 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:47.000 We did integration. It's the most important thing that we could possibly have, 117 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:49.720 and then we build it and it's a big resounding thud. I think 118 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:54.879 everyone's had that experience of the huge launch that no one cared about, and 119 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:58.879 it's usually because we got the wrong feedback loop, because we weren't pointed correctly 120 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:01.959 in the first place. Yeah, it's like you're in a noisy room right, 121 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:05.680 you got gotta pick out what noise actually matters and we don't want to 122 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:11.600 overcomplicate it by your own doing. That's exactly it's exactly right. Like we 123 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:15.560 it's kind of like if we were a rowing team and everybody's looking at different 124 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:18.759 parts on the horizon. We might get there, but we're going to burn 125 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:22.879 fifty or a hundred percent more calories just fighting each other to keep the ship 126 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:24.519 straight. So it's almost like saying, okay, Great, you have some 127 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:28.240 rock stars in your organizations, people that know what to do, but how 128 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:33.440 do we translate that to others? Like how do we almost not templatize, 129 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.279 but how do we make sure that we're able to hit this type of mark 130 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.720 consistently? Right, yeah, I think one is you have to watch for. 131 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:46.759 Is that really what this is, because sometimes you get strong opinions that 132 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:50.279 may or may not hold up to scrutiny. Right, so it might be 133 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:54.559 we need to find every time CEO talks about our company and their earnings, 134 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:58.399 call and the answer that is yes, like, if that happens, we 135 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:01.399 should have and we talk to them, but it never happens. It's what 136 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:07.879 I called like this high, high value, low frequency signal, and those 137 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:13.159 are those are great when they happen, but they're usually your your SHADOWYCP is 138 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:16.279 one step outside of that. What it means is something internally has happened. 139 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:20.200 That means we see an external signal for that, and so one understanding. 140 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:24.159 Are the mental models that are built out actually predictive, and do they show 141 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:26.840 up in the market? So I think that's that's part of the challenge. 142 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:30.279 I think the other part of the challenge is, you know, see this 143 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:33.879 with like product markers will sit down with a really good a really good Sdrd, 144 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:37.519 interview them and str the a's this is a campaign we should run, 145 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:41.080 or that they are speaking the language of the Vendor Building Block. So they're 146 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:43.559 like it's really be to be Sass with a hundred of fivezero employees, the 147 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:46.799 revenue between x and Y and their series a to IPO, and we're just 148 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:52.399 using someone else's language, but we're not using the language of what's in our 149 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:56.519 heads. And so that's one trick. When trap to watch out for is 150 00:09:56.519 --> 00:09:58.360 is the expert you're talking to. They have great mental models, but they're 151 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:03.000 trying to switch into a context that they're not used to talking. They're talking 152 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:05.639 to customers, they're talking one to one, and so I want them to 153 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:09.480 stay in a one to one mindset. So instead of tell me all the 154 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.080 patterns, it's tell me about the last perfect call that you had, or 155 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:15.440 tell me what you would do if you're about to go into a call with 156 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:20.159 these ten specific prospects and just show me exactly what you would do. And 157 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:22.320 when you do that thing, stop and tell me why so if you scroll 158 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:24.960 down the page in their website, you scroll back up. Well, you 159 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:30.240 were looking for something and what did you not see and what does that tell 160 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:33.960 you? And you want to gather all of those patterns because those are the 161 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:37.759 real things that lead to how they predict what's going to happen and who really 162 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:39.240 is a good fit for your company. And want to go through an example 163 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:41.480 of that in a minute here. But I want to go back to something 164 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:46.879 you said before. So said high value, low frequency. I want you 165 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:50.799 to dig into that a bit more and maybe give us an example or some 166 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:54.080 other like. Okay, outside of it being mentioned by like a CEO, 167 00:10:54.399 --> 00:11:00.720 what are some of those other actions that are high value low frequency? Yeah, 168 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.000 it's one of the most common. Is The you know, like someone, 169 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:07.480 our customer, switch jobs and went to a new company. That's high 170 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:09.559 value, it's low frequency. Now you should absolutely you should talk to a 171 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:13.039 company like user gyms instead up a flow for that and just automated, and 172 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:16.320 you should absolutely got reach out to your current customers who went to a new 173 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:20.799 company. Is there to speak your language and the language of a prospect. 174 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:24.360 They're perfect for that. But it's hard to build your whole business around that 175 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:28.000 specificing on ocean of thats exactly exactly. So that's probably one of the most 176 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:33.720 classic high value low frequency, but it's it is not really specific to a 177 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:37.559 specific company. The mentioning our product is another one that comes up a lot. 178 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:39.159 That's what you want to watch out for and what you want to say 179 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:46.080 is really the scenario of things that happen. So what I mean by that 180 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:52.879 is you're really this knowledge transfer we're trying to do is not like learning music. 181 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:56.759 Like in music there are steps, right. So I can say, 182 00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:00.240 Benji, here's what an a and at a minor looks like, and then 183 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:01.879 I can say here's what chords are in scales, and then if you play 184 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:05.240 these chords in this order, you will get the song. And if I 185 00:12:05.240 --> 00:12:07.080 taught you that in the eighteen hundreds and I taught it to you today, 186 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:11.639 the same chords give you the same sound. Yeah, it's more good to 187 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.200 market. Is More like firefighting, right. You just gotta rush in and 188 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:20.840 you have to adapt to an ever changing situation. And so when firefighters train 189 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:24.279 it's not like violinist where you're like play this scale a thousand times and when 190 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:26.759 you hit tenzero hours, like no glad we'd close. Then you'll be a 191 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:31.159 master gratulations. You've done it exactly right. Well, firefighters do is they 192 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:35.720 have a building and they put you in that building and they set it on 193 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:39.840 fire a hundred times a week so that you're learning from a real experience. 194 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:43.840 And so instead of this is chemistry and here's how the atoms interact, because 195 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:46.039 when you're thrown into a fire you don't have time to count atoms and molecules. 196 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:48.919 You just have to learn and build instinct for it. And so what 197 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:52.360 we're trying to do with the scenarios, and the reason I say tell me 198 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:56.159 about your great customer or tell me how you would prefer real call, is 199 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:01.279 that's the controlled burn scenario. I want a real life thing that has all 200 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:03.559 the nuance of the real world, not the thing that goes in my deck 201 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:09.519 that says bb Sass a hundred to five hundred employs. Hey, everybody, 202 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:13.120 Olivia here as a member of the sweet fish sales team. I wanted to 203 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:18.720 take a second and share something that makes us insanely more efficient. Our team 204 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:24.039 uses lead Iq. So for those of you who are in sales or sales 205 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.279 ups, let me give you some context. You know how long gathering contact 206 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:31.879 data can take so long, and with lead Iq, what once took us 207 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:37.919 four hours to do now takes us just one. That is seventy five percent 208 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:43.519 more efficient. We are so much quicker withoutbound prospecting and organizing our campaigns is 209 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:46.320 so much easier than before. I suggest you guys check it out as well. 210 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:54.519 You can find them at lead iqcom. That's La d iqcom already. 211 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:56.600 Let's jump back into the show. And so what we're trying to do with 212 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:01.600 the scenarios, and the reason I say tell me about your great customer or 213 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:05.879 tell me how you would prefer real call, is that's the controlled burn scenario. 214 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:09.279 I want a real life thing that has all the nuance of the real 215 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:11.279 world, not the thing that goes in my deck that says bb Sass, 216 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:15.360 a hundred to five hundred employees. Sow. We can impact there. But 217 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:16.960 I want to go to that second one and I want to have us keep 218 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:22.720 this conversation movie. So when you think of key driving factors behind so many 219 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.679 organizations, maybe not have having a formalized process. You started to dig into 220 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:30.480 that right like you want to know the rep that they they scroll down, 221 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:33.120 they scroll back up, like that type of in game if I can use 222 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:39.600 that in game scenario. So what do you think are the key reasons why 223 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:43.519 people don't have that? Like they went for whatever reason, they know that 224 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:46.360 their reps are doing that but they don't have a formalized way of tracking it, 225 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:52.080 of a system in place. Coyle. Yeah, I think part of 226 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:56.559 it is if you've ever done sales, it's the five wise right if you 227 00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:00.200 know. So the prospect says like we don't want that, it's too much, 228 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:03.679 shirts, too expensive. You should ask why five times to understand what 229 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:05.759 they're really saying. What they might really be saying as we have an allocated 230 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.480 budget, but this is a massive problem and so we're bandating it and the 231 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:11.360 bandaid cost us a lot of problem, a lot of money, and if 232 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:13.759 I said I could take that, you don't have to use the Bandaid, 233 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.600 then suddenly you would have budget, and the budget is not the real objection. 234 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:22.080 It's very similar in these conversations where the first answer is not at not 235 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:26.799 often the final answer right. So they might say something like, you know, 236 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:31.559 I worked with a company where it was B tob SASS and we're running 237 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:33.399 out of BB SASS and how do we go find more B Tob Sass companies 238 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:37.080 and you sit down with everybody and they'll say the same thing on the first 239 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:39.440 blush. Who Do you go after? What? How do you prioritize? 240 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:41.279 We look at B Tob Sass, would to be SASBB Sass, and then 241 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.720 you actually look at what they do, and what they did is they sold 242 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:48.399 a product. This is a very large billion plus valuation company that helps sales 243 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:52.240 teams with, you know, different parts of their job. And the actual 244 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.840 answer was, do they have a sales workflow? And had nothing to do 245 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:58.200 with B Tob Sass. It was do they have, you know, sort 246 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:03.720 of the flow of what we normally think of a prospecting motion, to a 247 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:07.519 deal flow motion, to a close motion? And if they did, then 248 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.759 their product was really good fit. And it just so happens that ninety nine 249 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:15.440 percent of b tob SASS companies have that tcular sales flow motion. Yeah, 250 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.879 but if you look at insurance companies, look, twenty percent of them have 251 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.639 that right. They have a sales operations person, Sills enablement person and they 252 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:26.799 have sort of they might not be called inside and outside sales, they might 253 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:30.039 be called like brokers or something like that, but they're having the same type 254 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.639 of conversations and they have the same workflow. Now your deal friction might be 255 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:37.200 a little bit higher the regulated of the other factors to consider, but the 256 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:40.799 cores they'll have the conversation because they have the same motion. And so that 257 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:44.799 was the actual why was I'm looking for. Do they have a sales motion 258 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:47.840 not? Are They B Tob Sass? So I think that's a reason it's 259 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:51.679 really hard to do. That is when we don't recognize when someone is speaking 260 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:53.799 out of their own context. We need to put them at ease and start 261 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:57.519 the conversation with don't worry about how we scale this, don't worry about how 262 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:00.559 we find it a million times. Just talk about your actual experience. I 263 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:03.720 think that's the first thing. And then the second thing is when they give 264 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:07.079 you the answer, just keep asking why until you get to the abstract, 265 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:10.160 fuzzy thing where there's a lot of nuance and they say, well, I 266 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:11.720 do this unless this is true, and then, if that's true, that 267 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:15.559 I do this, and that's when you're getting to the real mental model, 268 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:18.759 and that's the thing that's usually more predictive. Okay, so walk me through 269 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:22.599 some of that. Like you sit down with str and you're trying to map 270 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:26.759 their mental model. Like okay, sweet, you keep asking them why, 271 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:30.720 but like what is that conversation actually looking like? What are you are you 272 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.559 having them record a video? Are you having them how are you starting to 273 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:37.319 track some of this stuff? Like let's get hyper practical here for the next 274 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:41.559 few minutes so that someone that's listening going okay, I want to take from 275 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:45.599 this conversation what Kyle saying and want to start to implement it, they would 276 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:48.559 be able to walk away with some steps as to what to do. Yeah, 277 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:51.519 so I think there's two questions you're trying to answer, which is, 278 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:55.079 one, is this predictive, and too, can I find it? And 279 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:57.640 then the process to do that is sort of this back and forth between what 280 00:17:57.880 --> 00:18:00.559 is in the humans head and what can we get from the data, and 281 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.680 then how do we get those two to a lines who sort of are going 282 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.960 to bounce between these two states? So the first thing we want to do 283 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:10.400 is say, is this predictive? So we want to ask one just qualitatively, 284 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:12.279 how they would prep and what that would tell them, and we're looking 285 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:18.119 for confidence in Ah, I'm not going to ask this question anymore because I 286 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:19.880 saw that on their careers page, they don't have anything related to work from 287 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:22.400 home, which tells me that they're probably bringing people back into the office, 288 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:25.759 which means I'm not even going to talk about that whole other section of our 289 00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:27.319 product. Right, and they just know. Right. So we're looking for 290 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:32.680 that confidence. So we're looking for the predictive nature of what they say and 291 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:34.440 ideally we can take a thin slice of whatever they come up with. Right, 292 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.319 so I might take munch a cruise pages that do and don't talk about 293 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:40.680 work from home, and I map that. I can sure say close, 294 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:42.119 lot, one, close loss, and if I see there's a pattern there, 295 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:45.160 then I got we're onto something and we may not see that. And 296 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:48.160 so I might want to say is, well, the reason they said that 297 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.559 was because they were talking about whether work from home was predictive of some part 298 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:56.480 of your product. And so I want to look at other factors that might 299 00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:59.880 be related to work from home. So I look for a just generally on 300 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.839 your close one, verse, close, close lost, what terms show up, 301 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:04.799 versus don't, and then say, all right, maybe those work from 302 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:08.119 home just happened. Those were a high value, low frequency. But the 303 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:11.920 essence of the mental model was there are things that companies that care about this 304 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:15.720 talk about in a certain way. The things that companies that don't don't talk 305 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:19.960 about in that way. And so now I'm flipping from the humans mental model, 306 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.559 which was a specific set of things they look for to match a fuzzy 307 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.839 mental model. Specifically, do they talk about work from work from home, 308 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:30.000 which the Fuzzy Mental Model? Do they care about remote now I'm going to 309 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.440 go from the machine to say what does the machine see on good versus bad, 310 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:37.720 and then work with the human to say which of these also fit that 311 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:40.279 mental model. And if we do that loop a few times, then we 312 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:44.079 start to end up with something that both is predictive and I can find it. 313 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:47.480 And that's the loop I'll take you on a couple different times. Typically 314 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:49.759 go to the machine side for a second, because I'm not sure I fully 315 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:52.400 like we spend a lot of time on the human side, but like so 316 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:56.920 then what's the machine side in detail? Yeah, so part of this is 317 00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:00.079 like with brick stack. I've built technology and infrastructure to do some of this 318 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.839 stuff right. So like look at and analyze like a company site, similar 319 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:08.160 to how an AE ORN SDR might navigate to a specific section and extract what's 320 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:11.799 being said there. Yes, of mashup like similarities there. I think if 321 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:15.599 you're not doing that, you're just using the tools that you have available to 322 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:18.240 you. I do the exercise of I want to be able to say, 323 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:22.119 if I pull them out of the hat, how many of them fit your 324 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:26.119 mental model? Right. So typically, if you say BBB Sass, employee 325 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:29.359 sighs, these are sort of the the metro, the typical go to. 326 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:32.640 Those are attributes we have access to. Typically, if I were to just 327 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:34.559 use those and put them in front of an expert and pull ten out of 328 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:37.240 the hat, they're going to say yes to two. And so my goal, 329 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:41.039 if I'm using these blunt attributes, is I want to make sure they 330 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.119 saying yes to six and then and then ideal state is like eight or nine 331 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.759 or ten. And so the way I might do that is I might get 332 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.640 more specific or I m might look at the tags that don't show up as 333 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:55.000 much and say, all right, what does that tell us? Or you 334 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:56.960 can you can start to use combinations of things like I think I see a 335 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:00.559 lot of people do, like Oh, founding date to plus type of industry 336 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:04.559 is going to tell us about the nature of the type of culture that they 337 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:07.279 have to build right. So we'll start with companies found in the last two 338 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:11.319 years and that's how we'll niche down. And that might be close enough and 339 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:14.400 may not exactly directly tell you that they care about that type of culture. 340 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:17.920 But coup they found in the last two years just had to because they were 341 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:19.759 found in the last two years. So I would start to think through the 342 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:22.799 hops from the day to you have available that are going to allow me to 343 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.920 do that, pull them out of the hat test where I can say here's 344 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:30.680 ten. He told me too. Then I mapped all the coupies found the 345 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:33.519 last two years. I give you ten and it was six. All right, 346 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:36.319 now we're Gett we're in a world where you don't have to ask the 347 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:40.960 relevance versus personalization question as much because we can start to make some strong assertions 348 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:45.359 going in. HMM. Okay, so I'm a leader listening to this podcast 349 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.000 and like man cow's got it going on. He knows what he's talking about. 350 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:52.920 I'm trying to figure out how I would apply this in my organization. 351 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:56.119 What would you tell me to do as a starting place? What would be 352 00:21:56.200 --> 00:22:00.440 my is it just sitting down with your str getting that mental model, start 353 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.000 mapping it. What am I doing? Maybe steps beyond that, Kyle. 354 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:07.119 Yeah, so I would one I would ask myself the question do I have 355 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:12.200 a realized SEP VERSUS SHADOW ICP problem? And that will be evidence in things 356 00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:17.119 like does your best day? Say I don't like the website, and what 357 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:21.559 they're generally saying is I had a very great conversation with someone and I explained 358 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:23.880 perfectly to them what we do and then they go to the website and they 359 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.960 get confused or to see us say the same challenge right, like our customers 360 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:33.200 love us, but our new customers are totally confused about what they bought. 361 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:37.119 And so you want to look for these moments where you know, we talked 362 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.880 about in the prop this, that you lose the relay race in the baton 363 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:44.960 pass, and so look at those handoff moments and look for the disconnects, 364 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:47.839 and the bigger those disconnects, the more likely you are that you have shadow 365 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:51.119 YCP. So first is like acknowledging that we have the problem. Second is 366 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:55.599 then having those conversations across those groups. So sort of this exercise we described. 367 00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:56.640 If like, what does the human know? What can the machine show 368 00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:59.960 us? And the more we can improve both of those the better and then 369 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:03.119 get them to line up. And then I would do some some testing to 370 00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:07.039 confirm, because what we want to do is move from a world where often 371 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:11.559 in marketing we get caught in this world of needing to make all chips on 372 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:14.640 black bets, or it's like we need to hit the numbers, we need 373 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:17.480 to do this bet, and so we're going to run this campaign and if 374 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:21.440 it works, we're awesome, but if it fails, we have no idea. 375 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:26.000 Wanders across the yessing yes, and so you want to get into a 376 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:30.839 world where fail your mode is learning mode. So that's when I say back 377 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:34.000 test. What we're really doing is we're saying the shape of our ICP feels 378 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:37.440 like this hypothesis that we now have, and so we're going to run an 379 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:41.079 experiment where we're only going to focus on company it. So we're going to 380 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.279 say we think companies found in the last two years match this hypothesis. Those 381 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:47.200 are the ones are going to have the culture that we care about, okay, 382 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.319 and so we're going to use messaging specific to the culture that we care 383 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:52.599 about and we're going to send that out and if, if we get the 384 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:59.559 answer back we should be able to learn from it and reinforce the core mental 385 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:02.559 models. So in that case I probably could have come up with a better 386 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:06.599 in the moment, example, than when a company was founded. But I 387 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:11.240 would want to make sure that the experiments I run give me answers about my 388 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:15.200 mental model, not just whether I hit a certain metric. MMM, I 389 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:18.640 like this. I think there's so much that we can take away in and 390 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:22.480 even do on our own. Obviously there's stuff that you're you're a problem you're 391 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:26.319 specifically also trying to solve. Kyle, and I do want to give you 392 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:29.559 a chance here at the end to talk a little bit about brickstack and the 393 00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:33.400 work you're doing, tell us a little bit more about the company and then 394 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:37.440 also ways that we can stay connected to you. Maybe that's Linkedin or whatever. 395 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:40.000 You would want people to where you would want people to reach out? 396 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:45.359 Absolutely. Yeah, so founded brickstack as a result of my work doing a 397 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:48.960 lot of go to market set up. So I was early Google cloud on 398 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:52.759 the sales team. So I'm sort of this like sales leader that learned how 399 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.039 to code along the way from Google engineers and then built a business unit. 400 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:00.640 Google's largest partner. DID START UPS. You did a sequoia start up as 401 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:06.200 one of the earliest business hires. Both the centralized outbound function sort of got 402 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:10.119 us to the the series B fifty million and funding, you know, stage, 403 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.880 and then spent four and a half years as cofounder of a firm where 404 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:18.119 we helped companies like stripe and sigment and drift in these other companies making the 405 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:22.640 switch from inbound to outbound do more of this outbound data driven outbound motion. 406 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:26.480 And the core challenge is the one we talked about today, which is they 407 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:27.960 had this idea in their heads of what their market looked like, but it 408 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.000 didn't match their building to manifest that in how they targeted. And then the 409 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:36.200 targeting, as we talked about, leads directly into the messaging, right. 410 00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:40.319 So if we have a custom building block for the targeting, we can use 411 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:42.200 that building block for the messaging, right. So one example of that is 412 00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:45.559 a work with company drift. This is you know, while back, and 413 00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:49.359 you know the challenge was. You know, you could imagine a lot of 414 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:52.640 the same bb Sass type conversation, but what the A he's really we're doing 415 00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:55.759 was they would go to the site and they would look at all the calls 416 00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:57.680 to action, all the buttons and then Click on those. That most likely 417 00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:00.960 led to something where you had to fill in the form to talk to sales, 418 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.119 because their whole message was, and for those who don't know drift this 419 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:06.839 time was just on site chat. So the whole thing was no forms, 420 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:08.799 just talked to the team. Right, don't put friction in your process. 421 00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:12.640 You have the storefront, somebody walks in, you encounters will say hi, 422 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:18.799 exactly yes, and so that pattern showed up with every every top aight we 423 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:21.200 talked to, was that they would go to the site or the form, 424 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:22.640 sort of look at that form and you know, then you could say something 425 00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:25.279 like Hey, I'm on your side, I want to talk to you, 426 00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:29.000 but now I have to wait. And so I built a boat that would 427 00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:32.200 go and do that same analysis, sort of stack up. Okay, here's 428 00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:33.920 all the calls to action, here's how it scores in terms of how much 429 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.400 they're driving to sales. People then go to the form, analyze the form, 430 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:40.519 how many fields we have to fill out, take a screen shot and 431 00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:41.640 then it could convert all of that in the messaging, right, because the 432 00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.319 number of fields that I ask is going to change. How I talked to 433 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:48.960 you the calls to action that I have. If it's contact US versus contact 434 00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:51.720 sales versus get a demo versus free trail, and then it's actually a form. 435 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:55.759 You sort of this like false plg on. I'm going to change how 436 00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:59.319 I talk to you. And so the target. It was a targeting motion, 437 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.359 right, which it counts. Actually have the problem of a form that 438 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:06.240 keeps you from being able to have a conversation, but it also was the 439 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:07.640 way that I would want to talk to you. So sort of like built 440 00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:14.400 in relevance because of this motion. And that's really the idea behind brickstack is 441 00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:18.920 everyone has that nuance, that insight, and it's being expressed with a building 442 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.039 block that everyone else is buying off the shelf, and we hope you go 443 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:25.000 figure out what your own custom building block is. Well, thank you for 444 00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:27.160 being on the show. How do we connect with you? Is it Linkedin? 445 00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:30.799 What are we we need to make sure people know what to do as 446 00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:33.920 far as that goes. Yeah, so may be up on Linkedin. Kyle 447 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:37.680 Williams brick stack and brick stack is brickstackcom. So you know, feel free 448 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:41.720 to reach out anytime. Love it, man. Thank you for dropping your 449 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:45.359 wisdom here on B tob growth today. It was fantastic to get to chat 450 00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:48.599 with you, and I do think you mentioned it earlier, but that baton 451 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:53.039 handoff it there is so much that's lost there if we do that wrong, 452 00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:56.799 and so coming out of this conversation that is a big part of what I'm 453 00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:02.079 taking away, as this whole process helps us sure that up so that in 454 00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:07.359 the long run we're not losing where we in in areas where it's so easy 455 00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:11.400 to lose. That beaton handoff is in securing that is is vital. So 456 00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:14.680 thanks, Kyle, for being here today and for those that are listening, 457 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:17.680 if you've yet to connect with me, I would love to connect with you 458 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:22.839 on Linkedin. Always talk about marketing, sales and life over on Linkedin. 459 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:26.039 Just Search Benjie block if you want to leave a rating or review for this 460 00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:30.480 show. We'd love for you to do that and subscribe on your favorite podcast 461 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:33.640 platform. Keep doing work that matters. Will be back real soon with another 462 00:28:33.759 --> episode.