Transcript
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Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media.
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I'm joined today by Thomas Bocard.
He's the STP of sales at global
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data. Tomhi doing today, sir, Hey, Logan doing great, great
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area. I'm doing fantastic. And
so we're going to be talking about how
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sales teams can really use what you
call commercial empathy for better success in prospecting,
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in closing, all throughout their sales
cycles. But for one before we
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get into the benefits, how to
actually do this. Why is this something
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that's got you so fired up?
And what do you mean by commercial empathy?
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Yeah, yeah, so, I
mean I think it's got me far
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because, a, the impact it's
having on a sales pipeline, but also
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be because empathy is such the buzz
word right now and it's just it's the
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way it's being thrown around and utilized. It just goes against the all of
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you know, the tactical empathy that
Chris Voss has kind of like created that
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buzz around with everyone. You know. It's the how are you? Are
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you okay? Are you staying safe? Like you don't mean you just want
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to book a Demo Right, like
so I think for me it's really like
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it's going off the script and being
genuine, like you should be asking those
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questions because you care. But you
know, to some points that I saw
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in a post from you recently is
put that at the bottom. You're there
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talking business first to Hook Business and
when you bring it up at the end
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of the conversation it has more validity, more credible ability. For me,
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though, it's leaning into the you
know, the individuals at the companies and
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then having empathy for their job right
now. So that's why I called commercial
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empathy. It's you know, you're
the sales guy that used to be on
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the road ninety percent of the time. You're not on the road anymore.
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You know you're not doing the same
TAC as you're doing. Your targets haven't
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gone down, your expansion plans haven't
gone away and you know in most of
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the cases I'm speaking to, but
you need still find a way to make
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it happen. So how are you? You know where you pivoting? What
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are you doing now to go in
there? So it's really it's leaning into
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that part with empathy at the individual
level and it's just you know. So
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this is common sense it seems like, but that's what really gets me kind
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of, you know, fired up
around commercial empathy and leaning into that,
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the commercial part being the emphasis on
it. So that's absolutely man I love
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that you called out Chris Foss.
If anybody listening to this, if you're
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in sales or marketing really and you
haven't read Chris Foss's book, never split
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the difference. Go read it.
I've listened to it twice. I've had
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Chris Foss here on the podcast and
just so many things come up and conversation
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where I'm like, uh, go
back to that and we can apply that
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to this situation, whether it's mirroring, labeling, tactical empathy, all sorts
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of things. So we're going to
go deep onto empathy today in this episode
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on the sales series. So,
Tom let's talk a little bit. As
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you and I were chatting offline,
it's really about research, right. It's
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about going deeper, because you mentioned
it's not that empathy saying hey, crazy
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times, hope you're doing well.
It's beyond that. To have empathy you
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really have to put yourself in someone
else's shoes and you can't do that unless
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you really understand their daytoday so talk
a little bit about kind of the typical
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approach. You see the sales teams
to understand the market they serve and how
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you recommend they go a few layers
deeper. Sure, yeah, so I
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think Logan and that that's the key. It's going deeper. So in you
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go back three, four months ago, what have you even, you know,
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back to the end of two thousand
and nineteen. You didn't need to
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know the specifics. So you could
go into a company just you can understand
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your your Tam who are the types
of companies I'm calling? Why am I
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calling them? How do we help
them? Okay, great, like that's
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enough to lead off of. Then
the better APPS. They would understand their
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prospects, the job titles, if
there's different nuances, and that kind of
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generic approach. It's just falling on
deaf ears right now. It's just like
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the hope you're safe or you know, I was working at home with the
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kids. It's like doing it for
four months. It's go nuts. So
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it's really want to hear how much
he did you have right? Yeah,
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exactly. It's like, and I
mean and look at the beginning of all
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this. I think when people are
adjusting they needed those outlets that are away
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from like their family or their coworkers, just having it. But that's not
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going to press the needle and do
what we're trying to achieve. So for
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me it's it's going those extra layers
and that's really it's understanding your ICP at
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a level that you never have before. So it's not just understanding, oh,
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what are the three challenges that you
know, heads of sales come across
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that we help solve. It's really
doing what is their daytoday? What do
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they care about? Right, like
start the individual level before you're going to
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the company. So it's a you
know, these are your objectives, this
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is how you're measured for success when
you have your quarterly reviews or your bonus
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reviews or whatever it may be.
Right, but what do you need to
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do on the daily to get there? Right, what's the path? What
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are the road blocks that are coming
up? What are the unforeseen row blocks
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that have come up now because of
just everything that's going around us in the
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world? And it's knowing that in
and out from that side, like becoming
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a subject matter expert within your ICP
really changes those discovery calls from like interviews
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or questions and just high level,
sometimes nonsense bs too, really tactical conversations
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and that's where you start really get
some meat out of them and then you
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can start relating and it just starts. It moves the process so much quicker.
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They become so much more open to
having those bits with you and diving
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in there. So I think it's
really, you know, understanding your ICPA
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at a level that you never have
before, you know, and going in
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and out from that side. That's
the difference between what used to work or
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we used to get you, you
know, President's Club, and what will
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now. Yeah, absolutely, I
every thing kind of works to a degree,
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but when things are tougher, you
know you've got to do more to
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stay in that in that top percentage. It reminds me of a conversation I
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had with with Mark Smith here on
this podcast back in like the episodes six
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hundreds or seven hundreds. Will Link
to it in the show notes. I
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think that the title of the episode
was like before you make a single sales
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call, do this, and it
was all about make make some phone calls
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and just research the heck out of
the Daytoday of your prospects, whether you
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sell to vpiece of sales, vpiece
of marketing, HR leaders, founders at
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a small business, at startups,
you know, business owners in small to
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medium businesses. Whatever your persona is, you've really got to get to know
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more than just like the pain associated
with your product. You've got to get
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to know their daytoday, all the
other factors. It's kind of like,
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you know, I talked to people
in financial services that are like, oh,
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we can't do a podcast because you
know, we can't. We can't
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put out content because it's going to
go through compliance, it's going to take
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forever. I'm like, well then
you're putting out the wrong content. And
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I know I'm going from sales to
marketing here, but the same thing holds
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true. And the reason that those
financial services companies should be putting out content
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that's not just related to specific financial
advice is because their prospects spend one percent
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of their day thinking about, you
know, wealth management. They have all
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these other things and if you understand
and those things and you can serve your
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prospect at a broader level, then
you become, you know, that trusted
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advisor. So Tom as you and
I were talking a little bit offline,
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you mentioned several different tools and strategies
that you recommend your reps and other sales
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people use as they dig deeper to
get to know their prospects on a more
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one to one basis. So what
are some of the things that you're recommending
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to make this repeatable and efficient,
as they kind of balance the quality and
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quantity that we're always struggling with a
sales people? Right? Sure, yeah,
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yeah, and I think you know
some of the the ways that we're
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doing the research. So it is
even some of the research starts at the
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company level first. So it's still
important understand what's going on with that company.
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So you should have your Google alert
set up so you can see,
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you know, if there's any press
releases, any articles that they're in and
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that because that the company, you
know, I guess objectives and drives that
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will also that will have a major
impact on your ICPs. So it's you
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do need to still understand what's going
on in that company. So Google alerts
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are good for that. Another tool
that I use seeking alpha, you know,
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for public companies that are out there
seeking Alpha, you can set up
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alerts, create like a watch list. It's really for like investing in stocks.
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But what you'll get from it is
you know what what are these companies
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doing? What are the you know, it has earning coal transcriptions. That
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has all that, so you can
see how are they responding to what's going
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on in the mark now? What
are their key objectives? And you'll see
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if you're selling into sales, you'll
see will what are the revenue targets or
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challenges where they are? Do they
have expansion plans? Have they curb things
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back? What what's going on?
If you're selling to you know, marketing,
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product heads, whatever it may be, you'll get a sense from there
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and and it's great because it literally
just comes into your inbox so you don't
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need to do too much out and
from that end, you know, k
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filings are still good to read.
You know global data week. That's part
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of our platform. So we're as
sales people we have the benefit to have
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access in there so we can see
like quick buzz words from that. But
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anyone can read through some K's or
or see it seeking out for or a
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google alert to get kind of a
synopsis and get the Buzz Base. So
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it's important people all that stuff in
front of you. When it comes to
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the individual those will drive it,
but to that day to day, the
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real knowledge. That's where you have
to get and dig it, so to
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two routes. That, I think, our most effective one. Just look
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at job advertisement, right like.
So if there's job postings at the companies
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you're going into for similar roles or
roles within that division, look at that
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or a competitors. You get a
real sense of some of the INS and
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outs of what is required, what
is expected of them on the day to
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day to get to those objectives,
because that's what you need to know is
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what are they doing? What's going
on? You know, not the I
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got this on Linkedin the other day. Someone emailed me. They're like great
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to connect. What's keeping you up
at night? Of secres? You kidding
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me? This is your opening.
It's like is in one thousand nine hundred
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and ninety eight, like come on, but what do you what are your
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biggest business objectives for two thousand and
twenty? I saw John Barrows Post about
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that's like, what am my business
objectives for two thousand and twenty? Not
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Going under? That's my that's my
primary business objective. You want you want
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to know and it's just like,
man, it just kills me. The
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either whoever's writing these templates? Who
are whoever is, you know, sending
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these out and thinking that, man, that is just such a smart question.
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I'm just like, Oh, I
hope you realize that how that is
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landing. You know, I like
what you're saying. They're even if you
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don't, you know, have tools
like you guys have in house at Global
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Data and that you guys provide.
You know, you take that K,
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you probably know some of the words
that you're looking for. Do a control
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F on that PDF and just see
how many times a certain word comes up
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and and that sort of stuff.
So the transcriptions of the earning calls,
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the K and then the job posting
on one kind of common thread between analyzing
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all of those. I think a
lot of sales people need to think about
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is look at the language that they're
using. What is the language? What
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are the common words, and how
can you customize the way that you speak
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specifically to that account in a way
that that aligns with that? I literally
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you know if they're using if they're
using the word aggressive with their growth goals
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or there whatever that word is.
Literally, use that and aligned to that.
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Now, some of that might be, like, you know, I'm
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talking to so and so and they
don't know what the CEO said on that
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call. But it's not going to
hurt to a line yourself to the wording
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and and the common language that that
organization has. The other thing you and
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I talked about offline time I thought
was was really smart, is going back
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to lost deals. And now some
sales people be like, why the heck
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would I do that? Like I, I move on. It's out of
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the funnel. I'm focused on my
pipeline. But as it relates to commercial
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empathy, why is this something you're
recommending the sales people? Yeah, I
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mean those lost deals, and I'm
not talking about the deals a blowout like
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just you know that, like tell
you take a well, but but most
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of these you've spent time with them. So your sales cycle, even if
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it's you're dealing with SMB, you're
generally in a, you know, at
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least a two week to four week
sales cycle most likely, right. You
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know, if it's less, it's
less, but it you can go back
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to. You built a rapport you've
built relationship, you've spent, you know,
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a couple hours. You know,
both of you have invested time in
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this bit. So you can literally
you can go back to them just ask
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them some questions. Hey, look, I'm doing some some research on mice.
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I would love to just pick your
brain. Not Trying to get any
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company secrets to this, but just
want to learn more about your role.
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What is that you do in the
daytoday? Like just curious. So,
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you know, put on the research
had as opposed to the sales had,
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you know, benefit. You might
back door your way into some some revived
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opportunities in your pipeline. But but
don't go in with that objective. You
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just want to go into learn,
because you could take away from that call.
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You know, two three things that
can go into any of your email
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prospecting, your call, prospecting,
your linkedin touches just in the vernacular.
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So you mentioned it with like the
company bit. It's just also what do
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people in those seats say? But
I think it's important to start translating that
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stuff too, because, to your
point, maybe the person your pitch doesn't
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know what the CEO said, but
your proposal may end up with the CEO.
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So having the language that's baked in
there for that company from that CEO,
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you know when it comes on her
desk, she it's going to just
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I'm sure there's some you know,
some conscious n LP bits we could dive
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into that I've know. Yeah,
we'll have to ask Chris Class on that,
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but I think I love that,
not even just in your language,
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on your sales calls, in your
outreach emails, in your cold calls,
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but in your proposals as well,
finding some ways to customize that night.
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I think there are some things there
that they are definitely repeatable Tom speak to
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you know, some folks out there
are probably like, yeah, this all
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sounds well and good, but am
are really going to make a difference if
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I if I go deeper here,
if I really try to lean into what
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you call commercial empathy, is it
really driving results? As you and I
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were chat and off Flyin, you
shared with me some pretty surprising stats on
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both calls and emails, seeing how
it's been more effective taking some of these
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steps, slowing down a little bit
and understanding your prospects. Daytoday, it
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like it's driving real impact. It's
not just kind of this fluffy thing right
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yet know it and it's having impact
quick so while it is a little more
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work in the front end, you
know, but I try to organize the
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team. So it's like you get
a new territory, you find new people,
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spend a couple days digging into that
you know, or do a day
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a week where you're building it up
so then you can spend the rest of
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the week prospecting it out there.
So it's not killing your time. But
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from a calling perspective, seeing I'm
looking at there are some reps that are
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you know, some that have went
from using generic to using the more specific
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commercial empathy within the ICP's themselves and
they went from it was literally one in
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forty six goals. It took them, but it took him forty six goals
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to book a meeting. Now it's
taking them twenty two goals to book a
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meeting and the only thing that's changed
is the pitch. The audience is the
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same, but they're going in with
more specifics. It's generating that bit.
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I mean the email front, what
I was saying to I mean we you
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do in the generic emails. Mean
Look, we we were getting next to
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nothing from response rate. I don't
think that's off from a lot of people
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that I speak to in the industry, you know. But when you're doing
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emails of this nature, so like, obviously you volume goes down, so
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it does wait the responses bit.
But the reality is I don't think you're
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really sending out cold emails when you
have the research and you're putting it in
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there. So and we're getting about
ten percent hit rk on that. So
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just from top of funnel right there, it's time well invested on any research
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you're doing. You know, and
like you said, there are tools,
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are easy ways or shortcuts to do
it. It takes time, but it's
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not it's not going to kill you. It's not going to kill a month
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of productivity, it's not going to
kill a week. You just organized appropriate
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and attack it from that end.
Get out there. Yeah, I mean
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and from what you said, they're
you're doubling your productivity on calls to meeting
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books, you know, going from
forty six calls to book a meeting to
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twenty two. You've more than cut
that in half. So when you look
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at that productivity gain, as well
as like batch your research, don't don't
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try and like do it all throughout
the week as you're making calls, because
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that's where we like the context.
Switching just gets us out of a rhythm.
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Do Down at the beginning of the
beginning of the week and then have
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that inform everything that you're doing for
the rest of the week. I really
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like that. You mentioned as we
kind of wrap up the conversation Tome,
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there are other benefits to this approach
as well that go beyond just the top
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of funnel metrics the beginning of your
sales methodology. It really has an impact
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throughout the sale cycle, right.
Yeah, yeah, I mean the first
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impact is is shortens to sale cycle
right away, so you know you're getting
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through the process lot quicker because you're
speaking to the specifics of that your individuals.
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So if they're not the economic buyer, then they're bringing in people like
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quicker to help get that committee together
or get the to the in front of
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that buyer because you're speaking to what
their folks on there. And what you're
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doing is you're creating more values,
you're increasing your we're seeing average the ACV's
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have increased pretty significantly, you know, from from that D so they're up
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right now. It's about twenty three
percent on our side, just in some
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you know, short sample set from
here. So I like the numbers to
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go up higher so we have shorter
sales cycles larger deals, you know,
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and they're closing at a higher rate. You know, the converting more of
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the proposals to contract. So it's
it's not a magic bullet by any means.
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It's not easy, but it's it's
literally it's shortening the sales cycle and
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increasing our deal sizes and we're closing
more deals. So, you know,
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the time that's put in in the
beginning, it is helpful. And right
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now I mean like, look,
we're all work from home. We've seen
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from the beginning when everyone was picking
up the phones. The now that's gone
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down, it's got it's come back
to reality and that side. But our
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emails, I don't know about you, my emails have you know, that
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hasn't ceased. It seems like it's
increasing. The amount of just emails and,
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you know, pitches. I'm getting
from all angles. This is a
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way to really stand out because you're
speaking to them specifically. It shows you
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did the time. You're showing true
you know. Look, they're people's jobs
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and their livelihood, you know,
and there's a lot of question marks around
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that with what's going on in the
economy, what's going on in the world,
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what's happening with you know, Covid, etcetera, etc. So it's
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like speaking to those points. That's
showing you care. It's like, you
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know, I want to help you
do your job, I want to help
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you pivot, I want to help
you achieve those goals are overachieve in a
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time of question. You know you're
going to get their attention, you're going
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to get that meeting, you're going
to get the follow up meetings, you're
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going to get the proposal, you're
gonna get the real looks. So it's
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having impact on us, you know, at every stage of the game,
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which is what you know, what
you look you strive for at all times.
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I love the way you combine these
two apparently disjointed terms, you know,
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commercial and empathy, and putting them
together, because so often we forget.
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I hear Todd Capone say it all
the time. You know, even
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in be to be we make decisions
with emotion and then we'd back it up
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with logic. We're people first and
and by doing this is the salesperson,
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you are connecting on a more human
and more authentic level with your prospect because
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you can't speak into how you can
specifically address their emotions and their state and
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what they're struggling with unless you understand
that. So it only makes sense that
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to reverse engineer that sort of result, that sort of connection, you have
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to be able to understand them,
and I think you've given us some very
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tactic ways to do that, going
back to lost deals, looking at job
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postings, looking at k reports,
earning call transcriptions, searching for keywords,
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using that in not only your call
language but also in your proposals, those
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sorts of things. Tom This has
been a fantastic episode. I really appreciate
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it if there's anybody listening to this
who is now a new fan of yours
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00:19:48.369 --> 00:19:51.410
and they want to reach out ask
any follow up questions or just stay connected
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with you. With the best way
for them to do that? Yeah,
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Linkedin's probably the best way on that
bit. So, Thomas Folkard, svp
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00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:03.200
sales. You see be from global
data. I've also co founder of SDR
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00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:07.710
defenders. You can find this on
the website there as the our Defenderscom so
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00:20:07.390 --> 00:20:11.950
all over and recently started co hosting
a show with Paul Solomonaka the top one
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00:20:11.990 --> 00:20:15.710
percenter show. So trying to try
to follow you Logan, get out there,
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00:20:15.829 --> 00:20:19.349
get all over the place a little
bit absolutely. Man. Our CEO,
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00:20:19.430 --> 00:20:23.940
James, just posting about how we're
enabling our team to get five of
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00:20:25.059 --> 00:20:29.980
our team members posting every single day
on linked in. So just flooding folks,
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00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:33.380
so good to hear you're doing the
same, man, and Paul is
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00:20:33.420 --> 00:20:34.970
a great dude. Paul, if
you're listening to this, he did a
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00:20:36.049 --> 00:20:38.569
fantastic episode with me before. He
is he's a great dude. I know
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he was part of the linkedin sales
stars round up with Scott Ingram. Got
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00:20:44.049 --> 00:20:48.250
To reconnect with him recently anyhow,
Tom so glad we got to connect.
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00:20:48.650 --> 00:20:52.359
Shout out to Josh Roth, who
connected us all fine a while back.
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00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:56.119
Another great dude, someone you should
be following on Linkedin if you are in
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00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.559
sales, development, sales or just
want to get better in your career in
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00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:03.160
any aspect. Tom Thank you so
much for being my guest on the show
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00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:04.750
today. Man, yeah, log
it's been the pleasure. I will speak
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00:21:04.789 --> 00:21:11.029
too soon, but thanks. This
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