Aug. 4, 2020

#Sales 12: Your Cold Outreach Sucks (7 Ways to Fix Your Emails) w/ Kyle Coleman & Miles Veth

In this episode we talk to Kyle Coleman, VP of Revenue Growth & Enablement at Clari and Miles Veth, CEO at Veth Group.


Are you getting every B2B Growth episode in your favorite podcast player?

If not, you can easily subscribe & search past episodes here.

You can also find us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:10.470 Welcome back to the sales series of bdb growth. I am joined today by 2 00:00:10.910 --> 00:00:15.390 two of my friends, Miles Beth, the founder and CEO of Beth group, 3 00:00:15.429 --> 00:00:19.469 and Kyle Coleman, the VP of revenue growth and enablement at clary. 4 00:00:19.829 --> 00:00:22.140 And Kyle, miles, before we jump into this, we're going to be 5 00:00:22.179 --> 00:00:26.379 talking about email copywriting book. I want to start by opening with a really 6 00:00:26.420 --> 00:00:31.539 fun question. What was both of you all's first concert? First Concert I 7 00:00:31.620 --> 00:00:35.659 can remember is cold play. I was in high school. I learned how 8 00:00:35.700 --> 00:00:40.049 to play all their piano music and yes, Chris Martin is probably the best. 9 00:00:40.250 --> 00:00:43.570 He's kind of like start dislay on steroids, and Sharon is a better 10 00:00:43.609 --> 00:00:47.090 musician. I think Chris Martin by the best entertainer I've ever seen. Coldplay. 11 00:00:47.369 --> 00:00:50.759 Yeah, man, I was not like a die hard cold play Fan, 12 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:55.679 but I've definitely grown to like their music more over the last the last 13 00:00:55.679 --> 00:01:00.600 few years. Kyle, what about you? Mine was the Nintendo sixty four 14 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:04.510 warp tour in Providence, Rhode Island, and I remember that. I don't 15 00:01:04.510 --> 00:01:07.989 remember who the kind of the lower ticket items were, but that had the 16 00:01:08.030 --> 00:01:15.189 headliners were panic at the disco and fallout boy. So not particularly proud of 17 00:01:15.390 --> 00:01:19.540 that as my first concert, but I can't lie. Mine was always really 18 00:01:19.659 --> 00:01:23.019 fun, though. Yeah, so, so mine was boys, two men, 19 00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:26.739 and they were like the headlining act. But I went to go see 20 00:01:26.900 --> 00:01:30.540 Casey and Jojo, who was like opener, and I didn't even know the 21 00:01:30.620 --> 00:01:34.489 difference between like headliner and opener, but Casey and jo I was like I 22 00:01:34.530 --> 00:01:38.329 got to go seeksey and Jojo. That song all my life was my jam 23 00:01:38.569 --> 00:01:44.129 for like every years from fifth grade to seventh grade. My initials are Ksey, 24 00:01:44.409 --> 00:01:47.519 so I've got plenty, you have to love it, plenty of that 25 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:49.519 awesome. All right, fellows, so I'm really excited about this conversation. 26 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:55.519 Both of you guys talk a lot about email copywriting. You're both Kyle, 27 00:01:55.560 --> 00:02:00.079 you're obviously leading a sales team miles. You're working with sales teams in a 28 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.269 bunch of different industries. I think both of you guys bring an enormous amount 29 00:02:04.269 --> 00:02:07.750 of experience. This conversation, I think, is going to be incredible and 30 00:02:07.829 --> 00:02:12.629 we're going to be diving deep into the art of copywriting as it relates to 31 00:02:13.349 --> 00:02:15.740 sales emails. So the first question I have for both of you actually, 32 00:02:15.780 --> 00:02:21.539 Kyle, will start with you what is a commonly held belief when it comes 33 00:02:21.699 --> 00:02:25.379 to writing cold emails that you just passionately disagree with, that marketing should write 34 00:02:25.379 --> 00:02:30.930 them. I think that it should. It shouldn't be only marketing writing them 35 00:02:30.969 --> 00:02:35.009 and it shouldn't be only sales people running them. I think it's a healthy 36 00:02:35.050 --> 00:02:39.169 combination of both, and I think the right combination is for sales people to 37 00:02:39.370 --> 00:02:44.520 write the personalized elements, you know, the hook, the intro and then 38 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:46.280 the outro on the call to action, but for marketing to be the one 39 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:52.280 who's providing snippets around anything that has to be specific as it relates to the 40 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:55.080 product or the value prop or something that is, you know, really technical 41 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:59.710 or something like that, because they've workshop that they know the exact way that 42 00:02:59.750 --> 00:03:01.870 I'll resonate with the audience. So I think it has to be a joint 43 00:03:01.909 --> 00:03:07.830 effort and companies that try and make it all marketing or all sales typically are 44 00:03:07.909 --> 00:03:10.030 failing. Yeah, what about you, miles? What's your answer that? 45 00:03:10.710 --> 00:03:15.419 I would say stop copying other people. I think Elon Musk says it, 46 00:03:15.699 --> 00:03:21.500 like most of the world reasons, by analogy. So they think, you 47 00:03:21.620 --> 00:03:24.060 know, Josh Brown put up this template or something so I'm going to use 48 00:03:24.099 --> 00:03:28.169 Josh Brown's template or James Carberry put up this. I'm going to use this, 49 00:03:28.849 --> 00:03:30.770 and that's a ninety nine percent of people are doing. I think the 50 00:03:30.930 --> 00:03:37.490 first principles approach of and I read like the Bible and our entire calendars based 51 00:03:37.530 --> 00:03:39.569 off Jesus for girls, of anyone's view of them, like, I don't 52 00:03:39.569 --> 00:03:43.479 know, there's are a better seller and humans like I read that and write 53 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.199 copy because, like he's telling stories, I'm going to tell stories. I 54 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:50.240 think everyone who goes down the middle looking like everyone else is just it's so 55 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:55.349 competitive and invest group saids millions of emails. Like it's just it's impossible to 56 00:03:55.389 --> 00:04:00.389 compete with our volume if you're just looking like everybody else. Yeah, I 57 00:04:00.550 --> 00:04:03.509 love it all right. So this next one I'm really excited about, Kyle. 58 00:04:03.590 --> 00:04:06.949 It's going to be for you. You know, you've talked about using 59 00:04:08.030 --> 00:04:14.219 your prospects exact words in cold outreach. You shared something on Linkedin, I 60 00:04:14.300 --> 00:04:16.259 think it was a couple weeks ago. It was something that one of your 61 00:04:16.300 --> 00:04:21.459 reps actually did with Kevin Dorsey from patient pop. Can you elaborate on how 62 00:04:21.620 --> 00:04:26.089 reps can actually do what you're talking about? Here. Absolutely. Yeah, 63 00:04:26.129 --> 00:04:30.529 so the exact scenario you're referencing, James, is Kevin Dorsey. Well, 64 00:04:30.569 --> 00:04:33.050 we sell the sales people at clary. So we're very fortunate because our our 65 00:04:33.170 --> 00:04:38.290 target audience is very active on Linkedin Post and commenting things like that. And 66 00:04:38.370 --> 00:04:42.879 Kevin Dorsey posted something about this mindset of of being the buffalo and he had 67 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:45.959 this whole little analogy about how he had to be the Buffalo. And so 68 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:49.000 what our what our str did is he took that post and he said here's 69 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:54.550 how you, Kevin, can be the buffalo with your sales and forecasting methodology, 70 00:04:54.670 --> 00:04:58.829 with a solution like Clarry. So he took the literal words, word 71 00:04:58.910 --> 00:05:00.550 to word, what Kevin had said, and not the whole post, but 72 00:05:00.629 --> 00:05:03.670 you know, three, five words something like that, and put it in 73 00:05:03.829 --> 00:05:08.339 the subject line and then again in the throughout the body of the email, 74 00:05:08.579 --> 00:05:11.500 and that's what captured Kevin's attention and that's what made Kevin say, Oh, 75 00:05:11.939 --> 00:05:16.339 this person actually read and understands what I'm saying. Now you can take this 76 00:05:16.459 --> 00:05:21.009 principle and you can extrapolate it. If you're not fortunate enough where your target 77 00:05:21.050 --> 00:05:25.129 market, that is is is very active on linked in or social or whatever. 78 00:05:25.930 --> 00:05:29.449 Take the words that they're CEO says or, if you're selling into a 79 00:05:29.529 --> 00:05:32.490 technical audience, the CIO or CTEO or a press release or something like that, 80 00:05:32.810 --> 00:05:38.360 and pull out those exact quotes from the senior people at those companies and 81 00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:42.560 reference that, use those words in the subject line in the body, and 82 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:45.519 that's how you'll just show the people that you're reaching out to that this is 83 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:49.509 an email that is written for you and for you only, based on what 84 00:05:49.670 --> 00:05:53.709 the research that I've done on the the people that are making decisions at your 85 00:05:53.750 --> 00:05:59.389 company. Miles, I know you've got a kind of a counterpoint to this 86 00:05:59.550 --> 00:06:02.829 approach, that type of personalization that Kyle was just talking about, where he's 87 00:06:02.829 --> 00:06:08.300 taking something very specifically that either their CEO is said or that they've said and 88 00:06:08.540 --> 00:06:13.220 incorporating that language into the email. I know you think about personalization a little 89 00:06:13.220 --> 00:06:15.860 bit differently. Talk to us about how you think about it. So I 90 00:06:16.620 --> 00:06:20.370 love what Kyle just said and I look at it like a Kevin Dorsey to 91 00:06:20.410 --> 00:06:24.769 me, as an anomaly. Say, when I worked at EMC there were 92 00:06:24.889 --> 00:06:28.970 thirtyzero sales people. The number for sales leader at the company left to want 93 00:06:28.970 --> 00:06:32.600 to a start up when I started rethcroup by mailed him a picture frame of 94 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:36.720 him in a Jedi robe with his competitors logos getting slash or whatever, of 95 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:41.040 like let's fight the dark side, and he became my customer. He just 96 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:44.439 sat me down and he said there's a lot of lead Gen companies that want 97 00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:46.560 to talk to me, and I said, yet I'm the only one sitting 98 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:48.110 in front of you, and he just said like do your worst. So 99 00:06:48.189 --> 00:06:51.029 I remember like that, but that kind of anomially like a Dorsee, I 100 00:06:51.069 --> 00:06:57.430 think I struggle with it as a approach that works broadly, just because a 101 00:06:57.509 --> 00:07:00.910 lot of times I think he's at an anomaly. So what I try to 102 00:07:00.990 --> 00:07:03.540 do is look for things that I can find one of and then send too 103 00:07:03.579 --> 00:07:08.980 many people. So James, for example, being in Orlando, like what's 104 00:07:09.019 --> 00:07:14.180 happening in Orlando? That broadly applies where he feels like, Oh, you 105 00:07:14.339 --> 00:07:16.449 researched me, or Oh, this is at least interesting to me, but 106 00:07:16.529 --> 00:07:19.769 I can then send it to everybody and I know and some of the stuff, 107 00:07:20.329 --> 00:07:24.089 like James, I've claver and a lot of campaigns, some of the 108 00:07:24.250 --> 00:07:28.810 best ones we've done are really either to the point with like a little personalization 109 00:07:29.009 --> 00:07:30.360 like that. So it's just enough to grab attention. That gets right to 110 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:33.399 the value proposition. So I think I used to think I I'm going to 111 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:36.839 read the K and highlight it and mail it, and I found people are 112 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:41.240 so busy. Almost the for us, the scale, you know, Punchep 113 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:45.269 plus something there is what I would go with, unless it's like Kyle Coleman, 114 00:07:45.310 --> 00:07:47.750 has a huge brand and is super brightness. Clearly making like something like 115 00:07:47.870 --> 00:07:50.589 me is easy, because I'd share my whole life to get customers. So 116 00:07:50.670 --> 00:07:55.230 it's just like, I see you're like played baseball in college, but the 117 00:07:55.310 --> 00:07:59.220 average person, I think, is much harder and I feel like we lose 118 00:07:59.259 --> 00:08:01.860 in the middle. So breither like at this scaled creative, punchy funny. 119 00:08:03.259 --> 00:08:05.660 Theyven not personalized as funny, or it's super good, like your dorsie example. 120 00:08:05.939 --> 00:08:07.540 The middle ground is like, Oh, I say, I went to 121 00:08:07.540 --> 00:08:11.459 Alabama, I watch their national championship game once. There's kind of I think 122 00:08:11.500 --> 00:08:15.810 that's where it's a waste of time because that could just be pump automated if 123 00:08:15.850 --> 00:08:18.850 you weren't doing that, which I love to hear your thoughts pile. That's 124 00:08:18.970 --> 00:08:22.490 been my perspective. I'm I I agree with you, miles, at it's 125 00:08:22.730 --> 00:08:26.920 you know, we reserve the high touch, hyper personalized stuff, or like 126 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:31.639 the top fifteen or twenty percent of our prospects, and then for the remaining 127 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:35.440 eighty eighty five percent, they're getting more kind of templated personalization, which is 128 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:39.600 to say we create similar to what you just outline, miles, with the 129 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:43.429 geographic base things. We have a campaign that's based on Alma maters and you 130 00:08:43.509 --> 00:08:48.029 know, not the you went to Alabama want a meeting. Instead, what 131 00:08:48.110 --> 00:08:50.549 we do is, you know, we send them a direct mailer that is 132 00:08:50.590 --> 00:08:54.309 a coffee Mug for where they went to school and we say sales leaders like 133 00:08:54.389 --> 00:09:00.259 you are starting their mornings with coffee and Clary, and so we like try 134 00:09:00.340 --> 00:09:01.580 and and do a few things at once. We try and give them a 135 00:09:01.580 --> 00:09:05.659 personalize something that they actually care about, not clary swag, because nobody wants 136 00:09:05.940 --> 00:09:11.450 another clary Webcam cover. We want to send them something that's useful to them, 137 00:09:11.690 --> 00:09:13.289 that, you know, maybe meaningful to them, and most people care 138 00:09:13.289 --> 00:09:16.769 about where they went to college. And then we want to segue into our 139 00:09:16.850 --> 00:09:20.049 value prop based on what we've sent them. We don't want that message to 140 00:09:20.129 --> 00:09:24.279 be super disjointed. So we're just sending them a bribe and it's not actually 141 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:28.960 connected to what we do. So that's how we try and scale personalization for 142 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:33.840 the you know, the kind of second tier prospects who aren't, you know, 143 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:37.799 getting the exact are all the high touched or focused from us. If 144 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:41.350 I love that coffee, like if somebody sent me a Mug, as much 145 00:09:41.350 --> 00:09:46.190 as I hate on college and am not a huge fan of of college, 146 00:09:46.909 --> 00:09:50.789 if somebody sent me a UCO Mug, it would stand out to me because 147 00:09:50.789 --> 00:09:52.659 it's clearly something that, oh you, you went out of your way. 148 00:09:52.659 --> 00:09:56.340 I remember somebody got me a shirt. They were kind of a loose acquaintance. 149 00:09:56.539 --> 00:09:58.899 was that it was a newer friend and they got me a shirt with 150 00:10:00.019 --> 00:10:03.299 my alma mater on it. And I'm not like waving the flag being a 151 00:10:03.419 --> 00:10:07.250 UCO Bronco, but the fact that they were, it was thoughtful enough for 152 00:10:07.330 --> 00:10:11.129 them to get me that and being a relatively new friend, it meant a 153 00:10:11.210 --> 00:10:13.570 lot to me. So I can absolutely see how that can work. Miles, 154 00:10:13.610 --> 00:10:16.970 can you share some some of the examples? You mentioned some of the 155 00:10:16.009 --> 00:10:20.649 campaigns that we've done together. What are some of the more creative things that 156 00:10:20.769 --> 00:10:24.480 you've done maybe outside of geographic that you've been able to scale. Yeah, 157 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.240 I think there's a bunch of really interesting one. So kind of like what 158 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.720 you're saying, Kyle, I think one of the challenges that like you can 159 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:35.269 run into in how to personalize as like how do you not make it like 160 00:10:35.549 --> 00:10:41.110 I saw you went to Alabama. Points for me personalizing. I want something 161 00:10:41.190 --> 00:10:43.110 back from you or just like I'd like to bribe you. I think a 162 00:10:43.149 --> 00:10:46.149 lot of people operate that level. So what we've tried to do is take 163 00:10:46.230 --> 00:10:50.980 recipross. You step for the kind of tradition at the college and then really 164 00:10:50.019 --> 00:10:54.179 get into creative writings, like University of Michigan. If you step on the 165 00:10:54.299 --> 00:10:58.500 M and the Unity University Michigan campus, you fail your first blue book exam 166 00:10:58.379 --> 00:11:01.220 as like the whole theory. So it's like, Kyle, I'm afraid you're 167 00:11:01.220 --> 00:11:05.210 stepping on the end and the way that you are handling your podcasting, because 168 00:11:05.210 --> 00:11:09.009 you're not using audiograms and sweetfish can help. And then they think, oh, 169 00:11:09.090 --> 00:11:11.690 so you kind of get the point. I do think just going off 170 00:11:13.289 --> 00:11:18.009 all of this is I think personalization's going to become commoditized because if you look 171 00:11:18.009 --> 00:11:20.960 at like Linkedin is now making it work. Kyle and I have both figured 172 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.440 out how to send eighteen thou people something of that quality. Yeah, and, 173 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:28.519 as he we're maybe at the leading edge. I ultimately think they copywriting 174 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:33.429 is going to go way more wide open to just like who's the most creative. 175 00:11:33.830 --> 00:11:37.070 And right now the rest of procity of personalization is all anybody's teaching as 176 00:11:37.070 --> 00:11:41.509 the way they get in the door. So we're actually experimenting with Sweet Fish, 177 00:11:41.509 --> 00:11:43.830 with all kinds of things. Like James wrote an email. I'm started 178 00:11:43.830 --> 00:11:48.419 as to informations, but you already was just like literally like one sentence. 179 00:11:48.460 --> 00:11:50.980 Yeah, I know, like it got a fifty percent open right in, 180 00:11:50.019 --> 00:11:54.980 a ten percent response rate. No like quality, no three touch sequence, 181 00:11:54.100 --> 00:11:58.220 no personal zation. And I think it's just like James Always says, when 182 00:11:58.259 --> 00:12:01.809 people's Zig, you got a Zag, and I think personalization is becoming as 183 00:12:01.850 --> 00:12:05.330 zig. And as that happens, like we've all got a zag and it's 184 00:12:05.409 --> 00:12:11.850 going to get hotly competitive, because we'll do things like for personalization, will 185 00:12:11.889 --> 00:12:13.850 just like try like just like sweetish as hack pop culture. So I'll be 186 00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:18.679 like Kyle, I'm sure you're fed up with quarantine and you probably miss date 187 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:24.159 nights. Hamilton just released a new show on doesnit o there, right feet 188 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.519 or thing on Disney plus. If I was to order that in, would 189 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:30.389 you hear me out on how Claire, he helps give the analytics and then 190 00:12:30.429 --> 00:12:33.990 our follow up emails are like one sentence. So like, Kyle, clearly 191 00:12:33.470 --> 00:12:37.909 like your significant Holor wasn't impressed enough. What if we threw in a movie 192 00:12:37.029 --> 00:12:41.230 basket? Here's two options I found on Amazon and it starts just look so 193 00:12:41.509 --> 00:12:45.940 different that I'm not getting will get people like the heads of marketing at like 194 00:12:46.019 --> 00:12:50.460 Nike or I know for like cliff bar and American airline. There's like this 195 00:12:50.620 --> 00:12:54.539 is the best email I've ever seen. And it's not that it's like BCG 196 00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:58.210 would have proved as this beautiful blue ocean description. It's just because I think 197 00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:01.169 it's different. So all that to say, I think personalization, Kyle, 198 00:13:01.250 --> 00:13:05.769 and I think similarly about reciprocity research. I just think it's going to get 199 00:13:05.970 --> 00:13:09.370 to commoditized. Yeah, I'll speak to what you just referred to there with 200 00:13:09.490 --> 00:13:13.480 a campaign that we've run and the and just to go a little bit more 201 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:18.519 grainular on that, I think the subjecleing is like podcast question mark and the 202 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:24.320 one sentence is hey, so and so is podcasting in your budget or it's 203 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:28.149 podcasting in your twenty twenty budget question mark. And literally that's it, like 204 00:13:28.350 --> 00:13:33.389 it's a it's a one sentence email. There's no where the leading podcast provider 205 00:13:33.549 --> 00:13:37.470 do like, none of that. It's one sentence and because it's so punchy 206 00:13:37.789 --> 00:13:41.620 and it's so easy to answer, I think that's something that I don't hear 207 00:13:41.659 --> 00:13:43.740 a lot of people talking about, is like you've got to make it really 208 00:13:43.779 --> 00:13:48.059 easy for the person on the other end of the email to say yes or 209 00:13:48.139 --> 00:13:52.980 no. And when you ask you yes or no question and it's just very 210 00:13:52.059 --> 00:13:56.409 sharp and pointed, you're going to get really great engagement with it, because 211 00:13:56.409 --> 00:13:58.129 you're not I see a lot of people that will ask me two or three 212 00:13:58.169 --> 00:14:03.129 different things in their outreach to me or I get to the end of the 213 00:14:03.169 --> 00:14:05.049 email and I'm like, I don't even know what they really want. And 214 00:14:05.250 --> 00:14:11.879 so I think clarity and brevity are something that are grossly underrated and not talked 215 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:15.679 about enough, and I think both of you have have touched on both of 216 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:18.200 those. You know, it's interesting about that, James, is so much 217 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.519 of email consumption now is happening on a mobile phone? Yes, and yet 218 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.149 we have an optimized email writing for a mobile experience like a text message. 219 00:14:26.590 --> 00:14:31.230 And I'm personally not a believer that we should be texting our prospects quite yet. 220 00:14:31.230 --> 00:14:33.870 I feel like it's kind of a little bit of an invision of privacy. 221 00:14:33.990 --> 00:14:35.789 I can't explain why, because I'm all about, you know, doing 222 00:14:35.870 --> 00:14:39.259 research on people on facebook and instagram and everything else, but for some reason 223 00:14:39.460 --> 00:14:41.779 texting seems like a bridge too far to man. I don't know why, 224 00:14:43.179 --> 00:14:48.100 but we should be sending emails that read like text messages, that read like 225 00:14:48.299 --> 00:14:50.620 tweets, that make it easy for people to engage with for the exact reasons 226 00:14:50.659 --> 00:14:52.850 you just said, James. So I got to go back to the drawing 227 00:14:52.929 --> 00:14:56.649 board and and look internally and see if we can trim things down from a 228 00:14:56.690 --> 00:15:00.769 hundred twenty five words to twenty five words. Yeah, yeah, it's it 229 00:15:00.809 --> 00:15:03.570 would at least be something worth testing, right. I mean you don't not 230 00:15:03.730 --> 00:15:05.889 like it works for us. That's not to say it's going to work for 231 00:15:05.929 --> 00:15:11.320 everybody. But Kyle, you've talked on linkedin about using the word product tour 232 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:16.000 instead of the word demo in your coal outreach and I want to get really 233 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.120 tactical here. I want this episode to bring a lot of value to folks 234 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:20.399 in this to me, when I saw when I saw you right about this, 235 00:15:20.470 --> 00:15:24.149 I was like, man, this is a really tactical example of how, 236 00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:28.110 you know, speaking to what miles was referring to earlier, you've got 237 00:15:28.190 --> 00:15:31.990 a zag when everybody's zigging. This seems like one of those things to me. 238 00:15:31.110 --> 00:15:35.740 It's a simple change of word, but you said in your post that 239 00:15:35.980 --> 00:15:39.299 what it is is it's a pattern interrupt in your copy. Can you give 240 00:15:39.299 --> 00:15:45.139 us maybe some other examples of pattern interrupts that reps can inject into their emails? 241 00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:48.580 Yeah, sure thing. I'm going to spend a minute on this product 242 00:15:48.659 --> 00:15:52.169 or concept first, because I think it's important. Like every single person, 243 00:15:52.210 --> 00:15:54.769 like miles said earlier, every other person is is zigging in some way. 244 00:15:54.809 --> 00:15:58.009 They're saying you do want a demo, doing a free trial, do an 245 00:15:58.049 --> 00:16:02.730 a proof of concept, doing a proof of value? There's all these phrases 246 00:16:02.889 --> 00:16:06.080 that are overdone at this point, and so I saw that and saw that 247 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:07.279 people weren't responding to it, I was like, you know what, why 248 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:11.279 don't we invoke like, let's use this kind of creative writing miles that you've 249 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.200 talked about. Let's let's invoke language that is that has a different that has 250 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:21.309 different meanings, and I thought about what it means to receive a tour when 251 00:16:21.350 --> 00:16:22.870 you're, you know, touring a college campus, so you're getting a a 252 00:16:23.190 --> 00:16:26.549 tour from you know, you're at the Coliseum in Rome and you get a 253 00:16:26.590 --> 00:16:32.029 tour. It's an interactive, engaging experience that people like to have, and 254 00:16:32.269 --> 00:16:34.779 so a lot of times when I'm emailing on the phone with the prospect they 255 00:16:34.820 --> 00:16:37.899 say hey, you know, I could talk to you all day about the 256 00:16:37.899 --> 00:16:40.899 value of this product, you're not going to really understand it until you see 257 00:16:40.899 --> 00:16:44.179 it in action. How about a live product or with one of our experts? 258 00:16:44.379 --> 00:16:47.450 Get all of your questions answered in real time. And now they're not 259 00:16:47.649 --> 00:16:49.049 thinking it's just going to be a normal demo, they're thinking it's going to 260 00:16:49.090 --> 00:16:53.049 be like a a tour. It's going to be an interactive experience for them 261 00:16:53.169 --> 00:16:56.769 that's actually going to be useful, educational. They'll get something out of it. 262 00:16:57.370 --> 00:17:02.440 So that's the the full rational behind there. I see other like product 263 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:06.240 or inner pattern interrupts that people recommend, like saying, you know, give 264 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:08.480 me twenty seven seconds instead of thirty seconds and like I could take it or 265 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:11.319 leave that kind of thing. I think that's kind of silly. I like 266 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:15.910 the things that are really different, like, for example, when somebody objects 267 00:17:15.990 --> 00:17:22.869 you when you're on the phone, just not responding, like literally not responding 268 00:17:22.950 --> 00:17:26.109 to it and just waiting for them to talk again. So they'll say, 269 00:17:26.109 --> 00:17:29.430 Oh, you know, we don't have budget right now, we're under a 270 00:17:30.099 --> 00:17:33.779 spending freeze, and just don't respond and see what the next thing is that 271 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:38.019 they say and then respond to that next thing. Or instead of like when 272 00:17:38.019 --> 00:17:41.059 people say, Oh, you know, I just send me some information, 273 00:17:41.420 --> 00:17:42.980 most people would say, okay, cool, like what kind of information do 274 00:17:44.059 --> 00:17:45.450 you want? Or I'm happy to do that. Thanks a lot. When 275 00:17:45.490 --> 00:17:48.809 people would say send me some information, I say what's the what's the best 276 00:17:48.809 --> 00:17:52.289 way that you learn? Are you a visual learner? Are you an audio 277 00:17:52.329 --> 00:17:56.890 learner? Do you like to read? Like just change the conversation and try 278 00:17:56.890 --> 00:18:00.759 and continue the conversation in a different sort of way. It just it takes 279 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:04.759 confidence, but it also takes genuine curiosity and you want to be really helpful 280 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:10.119 to that person. So you're not tricking them, you're just trying to continue 281 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:14.150 the conversation in a way that's going to bear fruit for mutually bear fruit. 282 00:18:14.190 --> 00:18:17.710 Yeah, so one of the things that we've been doing with miles is team. 283 00:18:18.309 --> 00:18:22.069 It's a campaign around Phogo to Chow and to me this is a perfect 284 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:26.700 example of pattern interrupt miles, can you walk us through what you've been doing 285 00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:30.539 with us? What the Fogo to child campaign? Yeah, the idea was, 286 00:18:30.619 --> 00:18:34.500 what's a restaurant we could nationally have enough presents and that we wouldn't have 287 00:18:34.500 --> 00:18:37.660 to build. So we do a lot of custom stuff for would be like 288 00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:41.140 Kyle, I se're in Boston. Do you want modern pastry? And try 289 00:18:41.180 --> 00:18:44.369 and think what could do more broadly, because obviously the speed of sourcing data, 290 00:18:44.410 --> 00:18:48.049 if you can tie so we offered people lunch of photo to try to 291 00:18:48.089 --> 00:18:52.049 hear about sweetish and then the follow up emails are like those literally punchy pattern 292 00:18:52.130 --> 00:18:56.200 interrupts of like guess the steak didn't do it would when the mango cheesecake, 293 00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:59.240 and then it's just like and everyone's will get some one of his up in 294 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:03.160 arms that you know the mango cheesecake is sourced with a like some South American 295 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:07.240 company that doesn't support this and you should field, but most of it it 296 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:10.470 gets Logan on the phone. And so yeah, so we I think the 297 00:19:11.269 --> 00:19:14.470 thing I really like what Kyle said like pattern interrupts. I found when I 298 00:19:14.509 --> 00:19:15.829 would cold callide do the same thing. If I called James, I go 299 00:19:17.109 --> 00:19:19.710 hi, this is miles and I'll just be completely quiet. He goes miles. 300 00:19:19.829 --> 00:19:23.539 Who like, Oh, yeah, miles from bath group, like it's 301 00:19:23.619 --> 00:19:26.940 not even I feel like we often think like value, like we have to 302 00:19:27.059 --> 00:19:30.700 logically prove everything. But one of the things that I like to do is 303 00:19:32.539 --> 00:19:37.690 think about parallel analogies of where is this happening in other parts of our world 304 00:19:37.730 --> 00:19:41.210 as humans, not be to be marketing. So if I was at a 305 00:19:41.650 --> 00:19:45.809 like I don't really have a frequent bars but like enough of my baseball teamates 306 00:19:45.849 --> 00:19:48.130 from colleges. I hear these stories like if you walked up to a girl 307 00:19:48.250 --> 00:19:51.369 in bards that can I talk to you? Over and over again. They 308 00:19:51.410 --> 00:19:53.759 see that if you walk to her, don't you hate this? It's just 309 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:57.279 like you didn't say anything more valuable. It's just like it sounds different. 310 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:02.200 Yeah, and I think that whole thing like in this like Kyle said, 311 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:04.640 everyone when someone says I don't have budgets, like yes, you do, 312 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.829 you do have a bunch of for Clary, and you're just like Oh, 313 00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:11.069 like, I'm so sorry, I called you. They're like no, no, 314 00:20:11.150 --> 00:20:14.269 don't. Besides, I really shouldn't have. Then, all the sudden, 315 00:20:14.309 --> 00:20:17.069 like so I found reversing. I whatever I get on calls. I'm 316 00:20:17.109 --> 00:20:18.950 sure you do too, Kyle. Someone goes, I have no budget for 317 00:20:19.029 --> 00:20:22.619 clary. I just cope. You know, probably should just cut this thing 318 00:20:22.700 --> 00:20:26.579 twenty nine and a half minute short that and then they're like they're apologizing to 319 00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:29.980 you for responding that way and selling themselves. So I love how you think 320 00:20:29.980 --> 00:20:34.019 about I think it's genius awesome. So some miles. I want to come 321 00:20:34.099 --> 00:20:38.289 back to you a little bit here, because you you're doing this in a 322 00:20:38.410 --> 00:20:42.970 ton of different industries. You're writing cold emails for I. Obviously for Sweetish, 323 00:20:44.049 --> 00:20:48.529 but for a ton of other businesses in other industries. Share some examples. 324 00:20:48.690 --> 00:20:51.200 You know, we talked about the Phoko to Choo. What are some 325 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:53.319 other examples from some other industries? Are Like, man, I did not 326 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:57.720 expect that to work, but that was wildly effective. Yes, I think 327 00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:02.680 niches. So there's a continuum. And, Kyle, I think it's really 328 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:04.789 cool hearing your perspective because you're on it. You have the tough job of 329 00:21:04.950 --> 00:21:10.750 educating someone on a new concept before getting them to decide you, whereas in 330 00:21:10.829 --> 00:21:12.950 sweetfishs cases they know what a podcast is. Would you like to prouse it? 331 00:21:14.029 --> 00:21:15.670 So I think a lot of these approaches, the one sentence things, 332 00:21:15.750 --> 00:21:18.980 would not work. If you said, do you want a revenue engagement analytics 333 00:21:19.019 --> 00:21:22.460 platform, because, like, no one doesn't even is because you guys are 334 00:21:22.500 --> 00:21:26.619 making that a category, which I would just say to anyone. Kyle, 335 00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:29.819 I knew his name before I met him today from post and linked. Anybody 336 00:21:29.859 --> 00:21:33.930 didn't know why. I like it's crazy organic prediction of contents amazing. So 337 00:21:33.970 --> 00:21:37.250 I think what we've just seen is yeah, like, look for things like 338 00:21:37.369 --> 00:21:40.890 mine linkedin groups. I see we're both in the same linkedin group. Like, 339 00:21:41.329 --> 00:21:42.930 just how many emails do we get that say that? Not many. 340 00:21:44.289 --> 00:21:47.480 It's very easy to add yourself to link in groups, put it in sales 341 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:51.759 and have very impull names out of that. I think we've seen success talking 342 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:55.519 about professional sports. So we'll do like in a certain city, like Patrick 343 00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:59.119 Mahomes is, you know, paid one seventeen as much as Aaron Rodgers I'd 344 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:03.549 like to be one. Seventeen is expensive per pound or like. So those 345 00:22:03.589 --> 00:22:07.549 kind of personalizers. We do all kinds of just like really wacky stuff around 346 00:22:07.630 --> 00:22:11.630 movies. So I'll be like, Kyle, you know, like bane is 347 00:22:11.750 --> 00:22:15.779 the bane is coming for you, swinging, knocking down boulders. But best 348 00:22:15.819 --> 00:22:19.180 groups here to be the hero you deserve and the one you need and like 349 00:22:19.579 --> 00:22:23.019 and people love it. So I actually read the dictionary at night and just 350 00:22:23.140 --> 00:22:26.900 write down like Oh, that, like that Batman. Okay, I'd use 351 00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:30.490 that. Or like we do revolutionary work quotes, like did you know this 352 00:22:30.609 --> 00:22:36.329 guy lost to revolutionary war battle because, like he didn't know where his troops 353 00:22:36.329 --> 00:22:37.690 are supposed to be in a random into hole. With Claire, you can 354 00:22:37.769 --> 00:22:41.730 make sure you don't become like General John Smith, like, but yeah, 355 00:22:41.809 --> 00:22:45.880 it's super entertaining. So, Kyle, going going back to you, like 356 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:49.400 how often are you mixing up the the messaging in those emails? How, 357 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:55.680 like is that something you and other folks in sales leadership are looking out on 358 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:59.309 a monthly basis, quarterly, like, how often are you making adjustments to 359 00:22:59.390 --> 00:23:03.869 your email campaigns? Constantly, James, and I think that, if I 360 00:23:03.990 --> 00:23:07.309 could, it kind of summarize miles what you just said. We think about 361 00:23:07.430 --> 00:23:11.900 people not necessarily as personas, but drop the A and think about them as 362 00:23:11.940 --> 00:23:17.900 a person and what they respond to as a person can be silly, it 363 00:23:18.019 --> 00:23:21.819 can be based on history or movies or something like that. As long as 364 00:23:21.819 --> 00:23:25.819 you segue into your value prop effectively, that's what matters most. And so 365 00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:29.210 we do still have templated and more type ORG and type emails, James, 366 00:23:29.250 --> 00:23:36.410 and we're we're analyzing them. Our str managers are analyzing them weekly, looking 367 00:23:36.450 --> 00:23:40.089 at changes in response rates, outcomes, a baby test, things like that. 368 00:23:40.569 --> 00:23:45.640 But we don't change things, probably except for on like a monthly cadence, 369 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:48.640 because we want to allow the experiments to run a little bit longer before 370 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.759 we make any grant pronouncements about what work connected. So monthly is about our 371 00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:56.670 kids for change, but weekly as our kids for analysis. Oh yeah, 372 00:23:56.750 --> 00:24:00.470 as I thought. Question Pal. So how do you think about not getting 373 00:24:00.470 --> 00:24:04.509 drowned in the data? You're in a hot category like volume, like you 374 00:24:04.589 --> 00:24:07.829 could just totally just be like we're going to stick with this more volume or 375 00:24:07.869 --> 00:24:11.140 volume more value, or get really cute about changing it. How are you 376 00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:15.140 finding the balance of both? That I mean I you're obviously one of the 377 00:24:15.339 --> 00:24:19.900 hardest roles of a venture funded start up with the pressure of the growth, 378 00:24:19.940 --> 00:24:22.619 and you've obviously done really well. Like how do you find that balance of 379 00:24:22.700 --> 00:24:30.049 back we find that we try and find the balance by connecting all the various 380 00:24:30.089 --> 00:24:34.730 members of our revenue team. So we have the marketing team working in concert 381 00:24:34.769 --> 00:24:38.240 with the STR team, working in concert with the sales team, and we 382 00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:42.400 really take both in account thea's marketing approach as well as an account they selling 383 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:47.759 approach to really focus on the center of the Bulls Eye and then the two 384 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:49.960 rings right around the center of the Bulls eye and we don't worry too much 385 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:53.670 about the rest of the target because that's not what we're mostly focused on right 386 00:24:53.710 --> 00:25:00.029 now. And so we we avoid some of that paralysis by analysis, by 387 00:25:00.549 --> 00:25:06.190 really focusing on a subset of our ICPA, subset of our Tam and doing 388 00:25:06.269 --> 00:25:11.460 whatever we can to maximually penetrate those priority one accounts. So the main metric 389 00:25:11.539 --> 00:25:17.740 that matters to us is account penetration and how much pipeline have we created from 390 00:25:17.819 --> 00:25:21.450 those accounts, and then everything else, email open rates and click through and 391 00:25:21.569 --> 00:25:23.569 response rates, you know, and then even further up the funnel with lead 392 00:25:23.650 --> 00:25:27.609 and mql and marketing, qualified accounts and all these various stages you have at 393 00:25:27.609 --> 00:25:32.769 the up funnel. typeway third important leading indicators, but they're not what we 394 00:25:32.970 --> 00:25:37.920 optimize for. We're optimizing for outcomes, and so focusing on those outcomes is 395 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:41.680 a really nice way to stay a bubble free to a certain extent. I 396 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:44.880 love that. I want to I want to make sure that and you guys 397 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:48.640 have dropped an incredible amount of actionable value here. But I want to close 398 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:55.029 with a question that always tends to get even more actionable answers out of our 399 00:25:55.069 --> 00:26:00.910 guests. So, Kyle, for you, what is something that the sales 400 00:26:00.950 --> 00:26:03.150 people listening to this, whether they're in leadership or there an individual contributor? 401 00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:11.259 What's something that they can start doing tomorrow that they're probably not doing now, 402 00:26:11.900 --> 00:26:17.380 to start getting a better return on the cold outreach that they're sending? I 403 00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:21.690 am a huge proponent of what I call the five by five, by five 404 00:26:21.809 --> 00:26:26.490 rule, which is take five minutes to find five key insights about a person 405 00:26:26.650 --> 00:26:30.690 or an account and then spend five minutes writing email. and to me, 406 00:26:30.970 --> 00:26:37.480 this five by five, by five methodology is a means for scaling your personalize 407 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:41.000 outreach in a different way miles that you've outlined. So it's hard. It's 408 00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:45.440 way harder than it sounds. And when sales people start it's more like fifteen 409 00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:48.750 minutes of research to find the five insights and then fifteen minutes of writing. 410 00:26:48.789 --> 00:26:52.869 And that's okay. It's like building any sort of muscle. You have to 411 00:26:52.990 --> 00:26:56.589 start somewhere. But if you can get to that five by five by five, 412 00:26:56.990 --> 00:26:59.430 and you can be consistent with it, then you're going to be able 413 00:26:59.430 --> 00:27:03.980 to, you know, write twenty five personal emails every day and soon before 414 00:27:03.019 --> 00:27:07.420 you know it you'll have over a hundred a week and then you're scaling your 415 00:27:07.460 --> 00:27:12.259 outreach. So if you can start small and literally time yourself and time yourself 416 00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:18.049 over and over again and really focus on improving the time you're spending, I 417 00:27:18.250 --> 00:27:22.289 think that's a really nice way to start to think differently about your outreach miles. 418 00:27:22.369 --> 00:27:25.490 What about you? What's something that people should start doing that they're probably 419 00:27:25.529 --> 00:27:27.809 not doing right now? That would help him get a better return on Cold 420 00:27:27.849 --> 00:27:32.799 Emil? So I'm a shamelessly plug sweetfish for a second. So we run 421 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:36.440 two types of campaigns for sweetfish. We run direct appointment setting and we run 422 00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:38.599 guest outreach. So we basically will say hey, we want to have you 423 00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:44.589 on this podcast. Guest outreach generates twenty times the positive response. Why? 424 00:27:44.630 --> 00:27:48.029 I'm an appointment setting pound for pound and doesn't require any of the stuff we 425 00:27:48.150 --> 00:27:52.509 just talked about. So my advice to someone would be there's two reasons. 426 00:27:52.630 --> 00:27:53.630 If you're not either of these two things, I would not do this. 427 00:27:53.750 --> 00:27:57.029 If you're not naturally generous. You have to be willing to give without expecting 428 00:27:57.069 --> 00:27:59.940 something to give back to in two seconds, and you have to have a 429 00:28:00.019 --> 00:28:03.500 time horizon that your manager can handle, like eight months. Or if you're 430 00:28:03.500 --> 00:28:07.460 an entrepare like you've got, James, can give you a whole nother list 431 00:28:07.539 --> 00:28:11.380 of ways to live on other people's couch just to make your expenses like positive 432 00:28:11.380 --> 00:28:14.369 every month, because we'll pay you because you like watch move. I don't 433 00:28:14.369 --> 00:28:17.210 know. He's he's a geniuses. If you do that, I would say 434 00:28:17.369 --> 00:28:22.410 take fifty percent of your outreach, ask people to collaborate on content with you. 435 00:28:22.849 --> 00:28:25.569 If you can afford something like sweetish to make a podcast, I would 436 00:28:25.569 --> 00:28:29.599 do that. If you can't, I would just say you're starting like muffins 437 00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:33.400 with miles linkedin video series. Just interview these people because once you get to 438 00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:37.079 know them, if you consistently produce content like the two other guys on the 439 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:41.390 phone here, and they know who you are even a tiny bit, you 440 00:28:41.430 --> 00:28:47.309 will generate more traffic. Like our little business is growing at faster than we 441 00:28:47.470 --> 00:28:51.950 can on board clients without doing any of the marketing that we do for our 442 00:28:52.029 --> 00:28:53.990 clients. So I think my thing would be like, if you really want 443 00:28:53.990 --> 00:28:56.819 to know paradigm shift, that you need to sell them in two seconds. 444 00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:00.700 Content, collab rate, like all stuff james talks about. Then put an 445 00:29:00.740 --> 00:29:06.660 engine like kyle or minds behind it and you could literally have nine sales ups 446 00:29:06.700 --> 00:29:10.849 like Kyles doing nineteen interviews a day for linkedin videos. I'm positive if you 447 00:29:10.890 --> 00:29:12.490 have an eight month time rise, and that will do four times as well 448 00:29:12.569 --> 00:29:17.089 as what technically best groups trying to be the best. I promise. I 449 00:29:17.130 --> 00:29:21.369 did not pay you to say that, miles, but I literally wrote it. 450 00:29:21.410 --> 00:29:25.200 I mean I wrote an entire book about this, this concept of content 451 00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:29.160 based networking. Right, I mean when you when you fundamentally change the ask 452 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:33.200 in your cold outreach and it goes from not hey, I want to set 453 00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:36.880 a meeting with you so I can sell you something to hey, I would 454 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:38.750 love to collaborate with you on a piece of content for us. We obviously 455 00:29:38.789 --> 00:29:41.549 do it with podcasts. Hey, you want to be a guest on B 456 00:29:41.630 --> 00:29:45.990 to be growth, then you're by fundamentally changing the ask. The response rate 457 00:29:47.150 --> 00:29:51.470 goes through the freaking roof. Of course someone wants to collaborate with you. 458 00:29:51.509 --> 00:29:53.339 I'll tell you a story of my best friend in the world right now. 459 00:29:53.779 --> 00:30:00.460 He is a children's book author and for him he's realized that building relationships with 460 00:30:00.980 --> 00:30:07.890 people that are on the boards of directors at statewide literary associations are a huge 461 00:30:07.930 --> 00:30:11.569 leverage for him because if he can build a he built a relationship with somebody 462 00:30:11.609 --> 00:30:15.730 on the board of the Arkansas State Literary Association and they then asked him to 463 00:30:15.769 --> 00:30:19.490 come speak at their annual event. He spoke at the annual event and got 464 00:30:19.609 --> 00:30:25.000 in front of teachers from all across the state of Arkansas then proceeded to do 465 00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:29.079 a tour selling his book across the entire State of Arkansas. This guy went 466 00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:33.720 from barely selling any copies of his book to coming back from a Twentyzero tour 467 00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:38.470 in Arkansas because of a single relationship that he built with somebody on the board 468 00:30:38.470 --> 00:30:41.829 of directors at the Arkansas State Literary Association. I talked about it in the 469 00:30:42.029 --> 00:30:45.670 in the audiobook. Actually it's not in the physical book, but it is 470 00:30:45.750 --> 00:30:48.190 in the audio book, and he has started doing this again. He's like, 471 00:30:48.269 --> 00:30:51.660 man, I don't know why I'm not doing content based networking. So 472 00:30:51.779 --> 00:30:53.779 he started it earlier this week. He has set, I think, for 473 00:30:55.700 --> 00:31:00.420 meetings with people that are on different boards of their states literary association. In 474 00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:03.329 the last two days he's like, James, it worked again, my bro 475 00:31:03.450 --> 00:31:07.210 You like you're my best friend. Of course you know it works. We 476 00:31:07.289 --> 00:31:10.609 do this all day, every day for people like and all he's doing is 477 00:31:10.690 --> 00:31:12.650 saying, Hey, I'd love to feature you, I love the work you're 478 00:31:12.690 --> 00:31:17.650 doing with whatever the acronym is for their Association. I love the work you're 479 00:31:17.650 --> 00:31:21.319 doing with this association and I'd love to feature you on my podcast. Books 480 00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:23.039 for kids. Up for it, question mark. It's like a two sentence 481 00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:29.039 email and it works like a freaking charm. And each one of those relationships 482 00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:30.480 that he builds, you know, he does a pre interview, then he 483 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:34.630 actually does the interview, then he's following up with them built nurturing that relationship. 484 00:31:34.869 --> 00:31:37.670 So when they find out that he's actually a speaker and can do a 485 00:31:37.789 --> 00:31:45.630 really great breakout session at their Association's event, it's not even it's like taking 486 00:31:45.710 --> 00:31:48.579 candy from a baby. So I promise. I did not prompt miles to 487 00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:51.900 say that, but now that he did, I've got to go. I 488 00:31:52.380 --> 00:31:56.460 I think that's the ultimate act for copywriting. Honestly, it's just fundamentally changing 489 00:31:56.579 --> 00:32:00.380 the ask and when you ask to collaborate with somebody on a piece of content. 490 00:32:00.900 --> 00:32:04.369 I mean Kyle didn't hesitate to say yes to coming to do this. 491 00:32:04.809 --> 00:32:07.849 Neither did miles, and I think that a lot of people say, oh 492 00:32:07.890 --> 00:32:09.250 well, James, you've been you know, you got sixteen hundred episodes and 493 00:32:09.289 --> 00:32:13.690 a lot of downloads and that's why people say yes to you. I promised. 494 00:32:13.730 --> 00:32:16.759 People were saying yes long before we had any accolades, long before like 495 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:21.519 all you know, publications were saying we were a good podcast. Like long 496 00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:24.759 before that, people were saying yes. And I don't know how much longer 497 00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:29.559 that's going to be the case, but it certainly works right now and I 498 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.069 think everybody should be capitalizing on it. So thanks for the plug. There 499 00:32:32.150 --> 00:32:36.710 Miles, Kyle, is there anything you want to say in closing as it 500 00:32:36.829 --> 00:32:39.349 relates to email copywriting, before we close it down here today? Well, 501 00:32:39.430 --> 00:32:43.950 I just learned that you invited me onto this podcast to sell me. So 502 00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:51.980 why not? I're persona Kyle, so you're you're in the clear. Quality 503 00:32:52.180 --> 00:32:57.059 will win the day, quality over quantity. If you are evaluating success in 504 00:32:57.220 --> 00:33:01.730 terms of numbers on the dashboard, if you think that the quantity of output 505 00:33:01.849 --> 00:33:06.529 is going to yield results, you are going to be left behind. So 506 00:33:06.809 --> 00:33:09.369 you need to figure out the right ways to take what miles is said today, 507 00:33:09.410 --> 00:33:15.799 when I've said today, and to focus on scaling quality and focusing on 508 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:22.480 those the efficiency metrics that exists between the cracks of the output. That's going 509 00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:23.680 to be the way that you rowe. That's going to be the way that 510 00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:28.509 you scale, miles. What about you? Yeah, I would just say 511 00:33:28.549 --> 00:33:32.670 there's so much attention right now going to getting the first call and whether it's 512 00:33:32.670 --> 00:33:37.349 a first called podcast, very first call and sales call, and I think 513 00:33:37.430 --> 00:33:40.940 the majority of people winning are playing patient over a couple of years to post 514 00:33:42.099 --> 00:33:45.220 every day and Linkedin like Kyle does, whether they're happier, sad or busy 515 00:33:45.740 --> 00:33:50.859 to know. James Mail's me package is constantly like. I just think winning 516 00:33:50.900 --> 00:33:54.339 on relationships, like all these things are doing or opening a door to start 517 00:33:54.339 --> 00:33:58.130 a relationship, and I think it's so fun to think about how to do 518 00:33:58.170 --> 00:34:00.170 it better. But I'd say my only advice is having set you know, 519 00:34:00.569 --> 00:34:04.289 I don't know. He said seven up to seventy appointments a day in better, 520 00:34:04.329 --> 00:34:06.650 because the people who make money, or the ones like sweet fish who 521 00:34:06.690 --> 00:34:08.130 actually care about the people who pick up the phone and they're not just a 522 00:34:08.170 --> 00:34:12.280 dashboard number to Kyle's plant. I love it. Awesome. You guys are 523 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.599 incredible. How can folks stay connected with both of you? Linkedin is the 524 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.119 only social channel I'm active and so check me out there. I to this 525 00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:22.639 day don't really understand what tick tock is. I don't feel like I'm missing 526 00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:24.829 out on too much. So yeah, Linkedin for me, miles, what 527 00:34:24.909 --> 00:34:30.750 about you? My personal iphone, not a texting services two hundred and three 528 00:34:30.070 --> 00:34:35.070 and six, four, one, three, nine four zero ending text are 529 00:34:35.070 --> 00:34:37.659 Golement as much as you want and he's all over linked into. So text 530 00:34:37.699 --> 00:34:42.940 them or or going Tom on Linkedin. One thing I love, miles, 531 00:34:42.980 --> 00:34:47.300 that you're doing you're constantly putting your emails that you're doing for different clients as 532 00:34:47.420 --> 00:34:52.739 your content and so so, if you're curious about how to write some of 533 00:34:52.780 --> 00:34:57.010 these emails that are really standing out and zigging while everybody else is Zagging, 534 00:34:57.690 --> 00:35:01.050 make sure that you're following miles. For that, Kyle, you get some 535 00:35:01.210 --> 00:35:05.570 of the best engagement I think I've seen of anyone, and I'm in these 536 00:35:05.650 --> 00:35:08.320 circles. So if you are a sales leader in particular, you have to 537 00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:14.559 be following Kyle's content on Linkedin. You are going to up your game significantly 538 00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:16.480 by doing so. Both of you. Thank you so much for the time 539 00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:20.519 today. This is going to be an incredible episode. I really appreciate it. 540 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:25.909 Thanks so much. Appreciate this episode is brought to you by Panda Doc. 541 00:35:27.230 --> 00:35:30.070 Sending your documents is PDFs through email is super old school. It's time 542 00:35:30.110 --> 00:35:35.190 to while the socks off your prospects, clients and colleagues by creating, sending, 543 00:35:35.230 --> 00:35:38.300 tracking and e signing with Panda Doc. Go to panda dooccom Slash B 544 00:35:38.380 --> 00:35:43.619 tob today and start a completely free trial. No credit card required.