Transcript
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Welcome back to the sales series of
bdb growth. I am joined today by
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two of my friends, Miles Beth, the founder and CEO of Beth group,
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and Kyle Coleman, the VP of
revenue growth and enablement at clary.
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And Kyle, miles, before we
jump into this, we're going to be
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talking about email copywriting book. I
want to start by opening with a really
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fun question. What was both of
you all's first concert? First Concert I
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can remember is cold play. I
was in high school. I learned how
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to play all their piano music and
yes, Chris Martin is probably the best.
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He's kind of like start dislay on
steroids, and Sharon is a better
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musician. I think Chris Martin by
the best entertainer I've ever seen. Coldplay.
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Yeah, man, I was not
like a die hard cold play Fan,
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but I've definitely grown to like their
music more over the last the last
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few years. Kyle, what about
you? Mine was the Nintendo sixty four
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warp tour in Providence, Rhode Island, and I remember that. I don't
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remember who the kind of the lower
ticket items were, but that had the
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headliners were panic at the disco and
fallout boy. So not particularly proud of
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that as my first concert, but
I can't lie. Mine was always really
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fun, though. Yeah, so, so mine was boys, two men,
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and they were like the headlining act. But I went to go see
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Casey and Jojo, who was like
opener, and I didn't even know the
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difference between like headliner and opener,
but Casey and jo I was like I
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got to go seeksey and Jojo.
That song all my life was my jam
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for like every years from fifth grade
to seventh grade. My initials are Ksey,
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so I've got plenty, you have
to love it, plenty of that
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awesome. All right, fellows,
so I'm really excited about this conversation.
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Both of you guys talk a lot
about email copywriting. You're both Kyle,
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you're obviously leading a sales team miles. You're working with sales teams in a
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bunch of different industries. I think
both of you guys bring an enormous amount
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of experience. This conversation, I
think, is going to be incredible and
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we're going to be diving deep into
the art of copywriting as it relates to
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sales emails. So the first question
I have for both of you actually,
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Kyle, will start with you what
is a commonly held belief when it comes
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to writing cold emails that you just
passionately disagree with, that marketing should write
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them. I think that it should. It shouldn't be only marketing writing them
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and it shouldn't be only sales people
running them. I think it's a healthy
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combination of both, and I think
the right combination is for sales people to
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write the personalized elements, you know, the hook, the intro and then
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the outro on the call to action, but for marketing to be the one
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who's providing snippets around anything that has
to be specific as it relates to the
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product or the value prop or something
that is, you know, really technical
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or something like that, because they've
workshop that they know the exact way that
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I'll resonate with the audience. So
I think it has to be a joint
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effort and companies that try and make
it all marketing or all sales typically are
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failing. Yeah, what about you, miles? What's your answer that?
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I would say stop copying other people. I think Elon Musk says it,
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like most of the world reasons,
by analogy. So they think, you
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know, Josh Brown put up this
template or something so I'm going to use
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Josh Brown's template or James Carberry put
up this. I'm going to use this,
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and that's a ninety nine percent of
people are doing. I think the
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first principles approach of and I read
like the Bible and our entire calendars based
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off Jesus for girls, of anyone's
view of them, like, I don't
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know, there's are a better seller
and humans like I read that and write
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copy because, like he's telling stories, I'm going to tell stories. I
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think everyone who goes down the middle
looking like everyone else is just it's so
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competitive and invest group saids millions of
emails. Like it's just it's impossible to
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compete with our volume if you're just
looking like everybody else. Yeah, I
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love it all right. So this
next one I'm really excited about, Kyle.
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It's going to be for you.
You know, you've talked about using
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your prospects exact words in cold outreach. You shared something on Linkedin, I
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think it was a couple weeks ago. It was something that one of your
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reps actually did with Kevin Dorsey from
patient pop. Can you elaborate on how
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reps can actually do what you're talking
about? Here. Absolutely. Yeah,
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so the exact scenario you're referencing,
James, is Kevin Dorsey. Well,
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we sell the sales people at clary. So we're very fortunate because our our
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target audience is very active on Linkedin
Post and commenting things like that. And
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Kevin Dorsey posted something about this mindset
of of being the buffalo and he had
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this whole little analogy about how he
had to be the Buffalo. And so
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what our what our str did is
he took that post and he said here's
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how you, Kevin, can be
the buffalo with your sales and forecasting methodology,
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with a solution like Clarry. So
he took the literal words, word
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to word, what Kevin had said, and not the whole post, but
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you know, three, five words
something like that, and put it in
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the subject line and then again in
the throughout the body of the email,
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and that's what captured Kevin's attention and
that's what made Kevin say, Oh,
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this person actually read and understands what
I'm saying. Now you can take this
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principle and you can extrapolate it.
If you're not fortunate enough where your target
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market, that is is is very
active on linked in or social or whatever.
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Take the words that they're CEO says
or, if you're selling into a
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technical audience, the CIO or CTEO
or a press release or something like that,
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and pull out those exact quotes from
the senior people at those companies and
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reference that, use those words in
the subject line in the body, and
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that's how you'll just show the people
that you're reaching out to that this is
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an email that is written for you
and for you only, based on what
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the research that I've done on the
the people that are making decisions at your
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company. Miles, I know you've
got a kind of a counterpoint to this
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approach, that type of personalization that
Kyle was just talking about, where he's
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taking something very specifically that either their
CEO is said or that they've said and
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incorporating that language into the email.
I know you think about personalization a little
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bit differently. Talk to us about
how you think about it. So I
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love what Kyle just said and I
look at it like a Kevin Dorsey to
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me, as an anomaly. Say, when I worked at EMC there were
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thirtyzero sales people. The number for
sales leader at the company left to want
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to a start up when I started
rethcroup by mailed him a picture frame of
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him in a Jedi robe with his
competitors logos getting slash or whatever, of
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like let's fight the dark side,
and he became my customer. He just
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sat me down and he said there's
a lot of lead Gen companies that want
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to talk to me, and I
said, yet I'm the only one sitting
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in front of you, and he
just said like do your worst. So
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I remember like that, but that
kind of anomially like a Dorsee, I
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think I struggle with it as a
approach that works broadly, just because a
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lot of times I think he's at
an anomaly. So what I try to
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do is look for things that I
can find one of and then send too
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many people. So James, for
example, being in Orlando, like what's
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happening in Orlando? That broadly applies
where he feels like, Oh, you
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researched me, or Oh, this
is at least interesting to me, but
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I can then send it to everybody
and I know and some of the stuff,
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like James, I've claver and a
lot of campaigns, some of the
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best ones we've done are really either
to the point with like a little personalization
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like that. So it's just enough
to grab attention. That gets right to
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the value proposition. So I think
I used to think I I'm going to
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read the K and highlight it and
mail it, and I found people are
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so busy. Almost the for us, the scale, you know, Punchep
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plus something there is what I would
go with, unless it's like Kyle Coleman,
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has a huge brand and is super
brightness. Clearly making like something like
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me is easy, because I'd share
my whole life to get customers. So
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it's just like, I see you're
like played baseball in college, but the
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average person, I think, is
much harder and I feel like we lose
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in the middle. So breither like
at this scaled creative, punchy funny.
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Theyven not personalized as funny, or
it's super good, like your dorsie example.
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The middle ground is like, Oh, I say, I went to
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Alabama, I watch their national championship
game once. There's kind of I think
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that's where it's a waste of time
because that could just be pump automated if
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you weren't doing that, which I
love to hear your thoughts pile. That's
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been my perspective. I'm I I
agree with you, miles, at it's
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you know, we reserve the high
touch, hyper personalized stuff, or like
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the top fifteen or twenty percent of
our prospects, and then for the remaining
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eighty eighty five percent, they're getting
more kind of templated personalization, which is
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to say we create similar to what
you just outline, miles, with the
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geographic base things. We have a
campaign that's based on Alma maters and you
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know, not the you went to
Alabama want a meeting. Instead, what
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we do is, you know,
we send them a direct mailer that is
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a coffee Mug for where they went
to school and we say sales leaders like
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you are starting their mornings with coffee
and Clary, and so we like try
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and and do a few things at
once. We try and give them a
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personalize something that they actually care about, not clary swag, because nobody wants
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another clary Webcam cover. We want
to send them something that's useful to them,
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that, you know, maybe meaningful
to them, and most people care
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about where they went to college.
And then we want to segue into our
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value prop based on what we've sent
them. We don't want that message to
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be super disjointed. So we're just
sending them a bribe and it's not actually
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connected to what we do. So
that's how we try and scale personalization for
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the you know, the kind of
second tier prospects who aren't, you know,
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getting the exact are all the high
touched or focused from us. If
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I love that coffee, like if
somebody sent me a Mug, as much
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as I hate on college and am
not a huge fan of of college,
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if somebody sent me a UCO Mug, it would stand out to me because
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it's clearly something that, oh you, you went out of your way.
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I remember somebody got me a shirt. They were kind of a loose acquaintance.
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was that it was a newer friend
and they got me a shirt with
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my alma mater on it. And
I'm not like waving the flag being a
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UCO Bronco, but the fact that
they were, it was thoughtful enough for
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them to get me that and being
a relatively new friend, it meant a
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lot to me. So I can
absolutely see how that can work. Miles,
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can you share some some of the
examples? You mentioned some of the
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campaigns that we've done together. What
are some of the more creative things that
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you've done maybe outside of geographic that
you've been able to scale. Yeah,
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I think there's a bunch of really
interesting one. So kind of like what
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you're saying, Kyle, I think
one of the challenges that like you can
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run into in how to personalize as
like how do you not make it like
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I saw you went to Alabama.
Points for me personalizing. I want something
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back from you or just like I'd
like to bribe you. I think a
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lot of people operate that level.
So what we've tried to do is take
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recipross. You step for the kind
of tradition at the college and then really
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get into creative writings, like University
of Michigan. If you step on the
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M and the Unity University Michigan campus, you fail your first blue book exam
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as like the whole theory. So
it's like, Kyle, I'm afraid you're
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stepping on the end and the way
that you are handling your podcasting, because
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you're not using audiograms and sweetfish can
help. And then they think, oh,
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so you kind of get the point. I do think just going off
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all of this is I think personalization's
going to become commoditized because if you look
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at like Linkedin is now making it
work. Kyle and I have both figured
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out how to send eighteen thou people
something of that quality. Yeah, and,
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as he we're maybe at the leading
edge. I ultimately think they copywriting
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is going to go way more wide
open to just like who's the most creative.
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And right now the rest of procity
of personalization is all anybody's teaching as
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the way they get in the door. So we're actually experimenting with Sweet Fish,
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with all kinds of things. Like
James wrote an email. I'm started
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as to informations, but you already
was just like literally like one sentence.
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Yeah, I know, like it
got a fifty percent open right in,
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a ten percent response rate. No
like quality, no three touch sequence,
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no personal zation. And I think
it's just like James Always says, when
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people's Zig, you got a Zag, and I think personalization is becoming as
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zig. And as that happens,
like we've all got a zag and it's
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going to get hotly competitive, because
we'll do things like for personalization, will
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just like try like just like sweetish
as hack pop culture. So I'll be
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like Kyle, I'm sure you're fed
up with quarantine and you probably miss date
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nights. Hamilton just released a new
show on doesnit o there, right feet
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or thing on Disney plus. If
I was to order that in, would
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you hear me out on how Claire, he helps give the analytics and then
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our follow up emails are like one
sentence. So like, Kyle, clearly
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like your significant Holor wasn't impressed enough. What if we threw in a movie
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basket? Here's two options I found
on Amazon and it starts just look so
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different that I'm not getting will get
people like the heads of marketing at like
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Nike or I know for like cliff
bar and American airline. There's like this
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is the best email I've ever seen. And it's not that it's like BCG
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would have proved as this beautiful blue
ocean description. It's just because I think
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it's different. So all that to
say, I think personalization, Kyle,
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and I think similarly about reciprocity research. I just think it's going to get
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to commoditized. Yeah, I'll speak
to what you just referred to there with
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a campaign that we've run and the
and just to go a little bit more
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grainular on that, I think the
subjecleing is like podcast question mark and the
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one sentence is hey, so and
so is podcasting in your budget or it's
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podcasting in your twenty twenty budget question
mark. And literally that's it, like
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it's a it's a one sentence email. There's no where the leading podcast provider
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do like, none of that.
It's one sentence and because it's so punchy
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and it's so easy to answer,
I think that's something that I don't hear
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a lot of people talking about,
is like you've got to make it really
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easy for the person on the other
end of the email to say yes or
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no. And when you ask you
yes or no question and it's just very
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sharp and pointed, you're going to
get really great engagement with it, because
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you're not I see a lot of
people that will ask me two or three
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different things in their outreach to me
or I get to the end of the
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email and I'm like, I don't
even know what they really want. And
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so I think clarity and brevity are
something that are grossly underrated and not talked
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about enough, and I think both
of you have have touched on both of
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those. You know, it's interesting
about that, James, is so much
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of email consumption now is happening on
a mobile phone? Yes, and yet
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we have an optimized email writing for
a mobile experience like a text message.
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And I'm personally not a believer that
we should be texting our prospects quite yet.
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I feel like it's kind of a
little bit of an invision of privacy.
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I can't explain why, because I'm
all about, you know, doing
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research on people on facebook and instagram
and everything else, but for some reason
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texting seems like a bridge too far
to man. I don't know why,
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but we should be sending emails that
read like text messages, that read like
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tweets, that make it easy for
people to engage with for the exact reasons
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you just said, James. So
I got to go back to the drawing
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board and and look internally and see
if we can trim things down from a
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hundred twenty five words to twenty five
words. Yeah, yeah, it's it
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would at least be something worth testing, right. I mean you don't not
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like it works for us. That's
not to say it's going to work for
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everybody. But Kyle, you've talked
on linkedin about using the word product tour
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instead of the word demo in your
coal outreach and I want to get really
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tactical here. I want this episode
to bring a lot of value to folks
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in this to me, when I
saw when I saw you right about this,
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I was like, man, this
is a really tactical example of how,
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you know, speaking to what miles
was referring to earlier, you've got
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a zag when everybody's zigging. This
seems like one of those things to me.
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It's a simple change of word,
but you said in your post that
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what it is is it's a pattern
interrupt in your copy. Can you give
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us maybe some other examples of pattern
interrupts that reps can inject into their emails?
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Yeah, sure thing. I'm going
to spend a minute on this product
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or concept first, because I think
it's important. Like every single person,
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like miles said earlier, every other
person is is zigging in some way.
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They're saying you do want a demo, doing a free trial, do an
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a proof of concept, doing a
proof of value? There's all these phrases
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that are overdone at this point,
and so I saw that and saw that
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people weren't responding to it, I
was like, you know what, why
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don't we invoke like, let's use
this kind of creative writing miles that you've
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talked about. Let's let's invoke language
that is that has a different that has
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different meanings, and I thought about
what it means to receive a tour when
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you're, you know, touring a
college campus, so you're getting a a
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tour from you know, you're at
the Coliseum in Rome and you get a
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tour. It's an interactive, engaging
experience that people like to have, and
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so a lot of times when I'm
emailing on the phone with the prospect they
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say hey, you know, I
could talk to you all day about the
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value of this product, you're not
going to really understand it until you see
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it in action. How about a
live product or with one of our experts?
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Get all of your questions answered in
real time. And now they're not
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thinking it's just going to be a
normal demo, they're thinking it's going to
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be like a a tour. It's
going to be an interactive experience for them
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that's actually going to be useful,
educational. They'll get something out of it.
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So that's the the full rational behind
there. I see other like product
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or inner pattern interrupts that people recommend, like saying, you know, give
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me twenty seven seconds instead of thirty
seconds and like I could take it or
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leave that kind of thing. I
think that's kind of silly. I like
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the things that are really different,
like, for example, when somebody objects
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you when you're on the phone,
just not responding, like literally not responding
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to it and just waiting for them
to talk again. So they'll say,
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Oh, you know, we don't
have budget right now, we're under a
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spending freeze, and just don't respond
and see what the next thing is that
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they say and then respond to that
next thing. Or instead of like when
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people say, Oh, you know, I just send me some information,
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most people would say, okay,
cool, like what kind of information do
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you want? Or I'm happy to
do that. Thanks a lot. When
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people would say send me some information, I say what's the what's the best
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way that you learn? Are you
a visual learner? Are you an audio
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learner? Do you like to read? Like just change the conversation and try
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and continue the conversation in a different
sort of way. It just it takes
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confidence, but it also takes genuine
curiosity and you want to be really helpful
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to that person. So you're not
tricking them, you're just trying to continue
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the conversation in a way that's going
to bear fruit for mutually bear fruit.
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Yeah, so one of the things
that we've been doing with miles is team.
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It's a campaign around Phogo to Chow
and to me this is a perfect
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example of pattern interrupt miles, can
you walk us through what you've been doing
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with us? What the Fogo to
child campaign? Yeah, the idea was,
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what's a restaurant we could nationally have
enough presents and that we wouldn't have
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to build. So we do a
lot of custom stuff for would be like
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Kyle, I se're in Boston.
Do you want modern pastry? And try
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and think what could do more broadly, because obviously the speed of sourcing data,
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if you can tie so we offered
people lunch of photo to try to
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hear about sweetish and then the follow
up emails are like those literally punchy pattern
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interrupts of like guess the steak didn't
do it would when the mango cheesecake,
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and then it's just like and everyone's
will get some one of his up in
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arms that you know the mango cheesecake
is sourced with a like some South American
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company that doesn't support this and you
should field, but most of it it
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gets Logan on the phone. And
so yeah, so we I think the
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thing I really like what Kyle said
like pattern interrupts. I found when I
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would cold callide do the same thing. If I called James, I go
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hi, this is miles and I'll
just be completely quiet. He goes miles.
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Who like, Oh, yeah,
miles from bath group, like it's
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not even I feel like we often
think like value, like we have to
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logically prove everything. But one of
the things that I like to do is
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think about parallel analogies of where is
this happening in other parts of our world
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as humans, not be to be
marketing. So if I was at a
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like I don't really have a frequent
bars but like enough of my baseball teamates
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from colleges. I hear these stories
like if you walked up to a girl
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in bards that can I talk to
you? Over and over again. They
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see that if you walk to her, don't you hate this? It's just
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like you didn't say anything more valuable. It's just like it sounds different.
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Yeah, and I think that whole
thing like in this like Kyle said,
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everyone when someone says I don't have
budgets, like yes, you do,
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you do have a bunch of for
Clary, and you're just like Oh,
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like, I'm so sorry, I
called you. They're like no, no,
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don't. Besides, I really shouldn't
have. Then, all the sudden,
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like so I found reversing. I
whatever I get on calls. I'm
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sure you do too, Kyle.
Someone goes, I have no budget for
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clary. I just cope. You
know, probably should just cut this thing
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twenty nine and a half minute short
that and then they're like they're apologizing to
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you for responding that way and selling
themselves. So I love how you think
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about I think it's genius awesome.
So some miles. I want to come
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back to you a little bit here, because you you're doing this in a
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ton of different industries. You're writing
cold emails for I. Obviously for Sweetish,
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but for a ton of other businesses
in other industries. Share some examples.
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You know, we talked about the
Phoko to Choo. What are some
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other examples from some other industries?
Are Like, man, I did not
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expect that to work, but that
was wildly effective. Yes, I think
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niches. So there's a continuum.
And, Kyle, I think it's really
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cool hearing your perspective because you're on
it. You have the tough job of
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educating someone on a new concept before
getting them to decide you, whereas in
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sweetfishs cases they know what a podcast
is. Would you like to prouse it?
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So I think a lot of these
approaches, the one sentence things,
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would not work. If you said, do you want a revenue engagement analytics
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platform, because, like, no
one doesn't even is because you guys are
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making that a category, which I
would just say to anyone. Kyle,
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I knew his name before I met
him today from post and linked. Anybody
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didn't know why. I like it's
crazy organic prediction of contents amazing. So
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I think what we've just seen is
yeah, like, look for things like
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mine linkedin groups. I see we're
both in the same linkedin group. Like,
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just how many emails do we get
that say that? Not many.
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It's very easy to add yourself to
link in groups, put it in sales
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and have very impull names out of
that. I think we've seen success talking
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about professional sports. So we'll do
like in a certain city, like Patrick
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Mahomes is, you know, paid
one seventeen as much as Aaron Rodgers I'd
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like to be one. Seventeen is
expensive per pound or like. So those
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kind of personalizers. We do all
kinds of just like really wacky stuff around
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movies. So I'll be like,
Kyle, you know, like bane is
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the bane is coming for you,
swinging, knocking down boulders. But best
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groups here to be the hero you
deserve and the one you need and like
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and people love it. So I
actually read the dictionary at night and just
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write down like Oh, that,
like that Batman. Okay, I'd use
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that. Or like we do revolutionary
work quotes, like did you know this
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guy lost to revolutionary war battle because, like he didn't know where his troops
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are supposed to be in a random
into hole. With Claire, you can
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make sure you don't become like General
John Smith, like, but yeah,
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it's super entertaining. So, Kyle, going going back to you, like
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how often are you mixing up the
the messaging in those emails? How,
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like is that something you and other
folks in sales leadership are looking out on
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a monthly basis, quarterly, like, how often are you making adjustments to
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your email campaigns? Constantly, James, and I think that, if I
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could, it kind of summarize miles
what you just said. We think about
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people not necessarily as personas, but
drop the A and think about them as
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a person and what they respond to
as a person can be silly, it
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can be based on history or movies
or something like that. As long as
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you segue into your value prop effectively, that's what matters most. And so
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we do still have templated and more
type ORG and type emails, James,
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and we're we're analyzing them. Our
str managers are analyzing them weekly, looking
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at changes in response rates, outcomes, a baby test, things like that.
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But we don't change things, probably
except for on like a monthly cadence,
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because we want to allow the experiments
to run a little bit longer before
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we make any grant pronouncements about what
work connected. So monthly is about our
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kids for change, but weekly as
our kids for analysis. Oh yeah,
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as I thought. Question Pal.
So how do you think about not getting
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drowned in the data? You're in
a hot category like volume, like you
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could just totally just be like we're
going to stick with this more volume or
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volume more value, or get really
cute about changing it. How are you
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finding the balance of both? That
I mean I you're obviously one of the
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hardest roles of a venture funded start
up with the pressure of the growth,
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and you've obviously done really well.
Like how do you find that balance of
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back we find that we try and
find the balance by connecting all the various
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members of our revenue team. So
we have the marketing team working in concert
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with the STR team, working in
concert with the sales team, and we
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really take both in account thea's marketing
approach as well as an account they selling
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approach to really focus on the center
of the Bulls Eye and then the two
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rings right around the center of the
Bulls eye and we don't worry too much
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about the rest of the target because
that's not what we're mostly focused on right
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now. And so we we avoid
some of that paralysis by analysis, by
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really focusing on a subset of our
ICPA, subset of our Tam and doing
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whatever we can to maximually penetrate those
priority one accounts. So the main metric
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that matters to us is account penetration
and how much pipeline have we created from
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those accounts, and then everything else, email open rates and click through and
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response rates, you know, and
then even further up the funnel with lead
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and mql and marketing, qualified accounts
and all these various stages you have at
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the up funnel. typeway third important
leading indicators, but they're not what we
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optimize for. We're optimizing for outcomes, and so focusing on those outcomes is
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a really nice way to stay a
bubble free to a certain extent. I
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love that. I want to I
want to make sure that and you guys
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have dropped an incredible amount of actionable
value here. But I want to close
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with a question that always tends to
get even more actionable answers out of our
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guests. So, Kyle, for
you, what is something that the sales
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people listening to this, whether they're
in leadership or there an individual contributor?
401
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What's something that they can start doing
tomorrow that they're probably not doing now,
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to start getting a better return on
the cold outreach that they're sending? I
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am a huge proponent of what I
call the five by five, by five
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rule, which is take five minutes
to find five key insights about a person
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or an account and then spend five
minutes writing email. and to me,
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this five by five, by five
methodology is a means for scaling your personalize
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00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:41.000
outreach in a different way miles that
you've outlined. So it's hard. It's
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00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:45.440
way harder than it sounds. And
when sales people start it's more like fifteen
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00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:48.750
minutes of research to find the five
insights and then fifteen minutes of writing.
410
00:26:48.789 --> 00:26:52.869
And that's okay. It's like building
any sort of muscle. You have to
411
00:26:52.990 --> 00:26:56.589
start somewhere. But if you can
get to that five by five by five,
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00:26:56.990 --> 00:26:59.430
and you can be consistent with it, then you're going to be able
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00:26:59.430 --> 00:27:03.980
to, you know, write twenty
five personal emails every day and soon before
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00:27:03.019 --> 00:27:07.420
you know it you'll have over a
hundred a week and then you're scaling your
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00:27:07.460 --> 00:27:12.259
outreach. So if you can start
small and literally time yourself and time yourself
416
00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:18.049
over and over again and really focus
on improving the time you're spending, I
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00:27:18.250 --> 00:27:22.289
think that's a really nice way to
start to think differently about your outreach miles.
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00:27:22.369 --> 00:27:25.490
What about you? What's something that
people should start doing that they're probably
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00:27:25.529 --> 00:27:27.809
not doing right now? That would
help him get a better return on Cold
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00:27:27.849 --> 00:27:32.799
Emil? So I'm a shamelessly plug
sweetfish for a second. So we run
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00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:36.440
two types of campaigns for sweetfish.
We run direct appointment setting and we run
422
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:38.599
guest outreach. So we basically will
say hey, we want to have you
423
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:44.589
on this podcast. Guest outreach generates
twenty times the positive response. Why?
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00:27:44.630 --> 00:27:48.029
I'm an appointment setting pound for pound
and doesn't require any of the stuff we
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00:27:48.150 --> 00:27:52.509
just talked about. So my advice
to someone would be there's two reasons.
426
00:27:52.630 --> 00:27:53.630
If you're not either of these two
things, I would not do this.
427
00:27:53.750 --> 00:27:57.029
If you're not naturally generous. You
have to be willing to give without expecting
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00:27:57.069 --> 00:27:59.940
something to give back to in two
seconds, and you have to have a
429
00:28:00.019 --> 00:28:03.500
time horizon that your manager can handle, like eight months. Or if you're
430
00:28:03.500 --> 00:28:07.460
an entrepare like you've got, James, can give you a whole nother list
431
00:28:07.539 --> 00:28:11.380
of ways to live on other people's
couch just to make your expenses like positive
432
00:28:11.380 --> 00:28:14.369
every month, because we'll pay you
because you like watch move. I don't
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00:28:14.369 --> 00:28:17.210
know. He's he's a geniuses.
If you do that, I would say
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00:28:17.369 --> 00:28:22.410
take fifty percent of your outreach,
ask people to collaborate on content with you.
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00:28:22.849 --> 00:28:25.569
If you can afford something like sweetish
to make a podcast, I would
436
00:28:25.569 --> 00:28:29.599
do that. If you can't,
I would just say you're starting like muffins
437
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:33.400
with miles linkedin video series. Just
interview these people because once you get to
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00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:37.079
know them, if you consistently produce
content like the two other guys on the
439
00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:41.390
phone here, and they know who
you are even a tiny bit, you
440
00:28:41.430 --> 00:28:47.309
will generate more traffic. Like our
little business is growing at faster than we
441
00:28:47.470 --> 00:28:51.950
can on board clients without doing any
of the marketing that we do for our
442
00:28:52.029 --> 00:28:53.990
clients. So I think my thing
would be like, if you really want
443
00:28:53.990 --> 00:28:56.819
to know paradigm shift, that you
need to sell them in two seconds.
444
00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:00.700
Content, collab rate, like all
stuff james talks about. Then put an
445
00:29:00.740 --> 00:29:06.660
engine like kyle or minds behind it
and you could literally have nine sales ups
446
00:29:06.700 --> 00:29:10.849
like Kyles doing nineteen interviews a day
for linkedin videos. I'm positive if you
447
00:29:10.890 --> 00:29:12.490
have an eight month time rise,
and that will do four times as well
448
00:29:12.569 --> 00:29:17.089
as what technically best groups trying to
be the best. I promise. I
449
00:29:17.130 --> 00:29:21.369
did not pay you to say that, miles, but I literally wrote it.
450
00:29:21.410 --> 00:29:25.200
I mean I wrote an entire book
about this, this concept of content
451
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:29.160
based networking. Right, I mean
when you when you fundamentally change the ask
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00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:33.200
in your cold outreach and it goes
from not hey, I want to set
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00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:36.880
a meeting with you so I can
sell you something to hey, I would
454
00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:38.750
love to collaborate with you on a
piece of content for us. We obviously
455
00:29:38.789 --> 00:29:41.549
do it with podcasts. Hey,
you want to be a guest on B
456
00:29:41.630 --> 00:29:45.990
to be growth, then you're by
fundamentally changing the ask. The response rate
457
00:29:47.150 --> 00:29:51.470
goes through the freaking roof. Of
course someone wants to collaborate with you.
458
00:29:51.509 --> 00:29:53.339
I'll tell you a story of my
best friend in the world right now.
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00:29:53.779 --> 00:30:00.460
He is a children's book author and
for him he's realized that building relationships with
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00:30:00.980 --> 00:30:07.890
people that are on the boards of
directors at statewide literary associations are a huge
461
00:30:07.930 --> 00:30:11.569
leverage for him because if he can
build a he built a relationship with somebody
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00:30:11.609 --> 00:30:15.730
on the board of the Arkansas State
Literary Association and they then asked him to
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00:30:15.769 --> 00:30:19.490
come speak at their annual event.
He spoke at the annual event and got
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00:30:19.609 --> 00:30:25.000
in front of teachers from all across
the state of Arkansas then proceeded to do
465
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:29.079
a tour selling his book across the
entire State of Arkansas. This guy went
466
00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:33.720
from barely selling any copies of his
book to coming back from a Twentyzero tour
467
00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:38.470
in Arkansas because of a single relationship
that he built with somebody on the board
468
00:30:38.470 --> 00:30:41.829
of directors at the Arkansas State Literary
Association. I talked about it in the
469
00:30:42.029 --> 00:30:45.670
in the audiobook. Actually it's not
in the physical book, but it is
470
00:30:45.750 --> 00:30:48.190
in the audio book, and he
has started doing this again. He's like,
471
00:30:48.269 --> 00:30:51.660
man, I don't know why I'm
not doing content based networking. So
472
00:30:51.779 --> 00:30:53.779
he started it earlier this week.
He has set, I think, for
473
00:30:55.700 --> 00:31:00.420
meetings with people that are on different
boards of their states literary association. In
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00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:03.329
the last two days he's like,
James, it worked again, my bro
475
00:31:03.450 --> 00:31:07.210
You like you're my best friend.
Of course you know it works. We
476
00:31:07.289 --> 00:31:10.609
do this all day, every day
for people like and all he's doing is
477
00:31:10.690 --> 00:31:12.650
saying, Hey, I'd love to
feature you, I love the work you're
478
00:31:12.690 --> 00:31:17.650
doing with whatever the acronym is for
their Association. I love the work you're
479
00:31:17.650 --> 00:31:21.319
doing with this association and I'd love
to feature you on my podcast. Books
480
00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:23.039
for kids. Up for it,
question mark. It's like a two sentence
481
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:29.039
email and it works like a freaking
charm. And each one of those relationships
482
00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:30.480
that he builds, you know,
he does a pre interview, then he
483
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:34.630
actually does the interview, then he's
following up with them built nurturing that relationship.
484
00:31:34.869 --> 00:31:37.670
So when they find out that he's
actually a speaker and can do a
485
00:31:37.789 --> 00:31:45.630
really great breakout session at their Association's
event, it's not even it's like taking
486
00:31:45.710 --> 00:31:48.579
candy from a baby. So I
promise. I did not prompt miles to
487
00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:51.900
say that, but now that he
did, I've got to go. I
488
00:31:52.380 --> 00:31:56.460
I think that's the ultimate act for
copywriting. Honestly, it's just fundamentally changing
489
00:31:56.579 --> 00:32:00.380
the ask and when you ask to
collaborate with somebody on a piece of content.
490
00:32:00.900 --> 00:32:04.369
I mean Kyle didn't hesitate to say
yes to coming to do this.
491
00:32:04.809 --> 00:32:07.849
Neither did miles, and I think
that a lot of people say, oh
492
00:32:07.890 --> 00:32:09.250
well, James, you've been you
know, you got sixteen hundred episodes and
493
00:32:09.289 --> 00:32:13.690
a lot of downloads and that's why
people say yes to you. I promised.
494
00:32:13.730 --> 00:32:16.759
People were saying yes long before we
had any accolades, long before like
495
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:21.519
all you know, publications were saying
we were a good podcast. Like long
496
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:24.759
before that, people were saying yes. And I don't know how much longer
497
00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:29.559
that's going to be the case,
but it certainly works right now and I
498
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.069
think everybody should be capitalizing on it. So thanks for the plug. There
499
00:32:32.150 --> 00:32:36.710
Miles, Kyle, is there anything
you want to say in closing as it
500
00:32:36.829 --> 00:32:39.349
relates to email copywriting, before we
close it down here today? Well,
501
00:32:39.430 --> 00:32:43.950
I just learned that you invited me
onto this podcast to sell me. So
502
00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:51.980
why not? I're persona Kyle,
so you're you're in the clear. Quality
503
00:32:52.180 --> 00:32:57.059
will win the day, quality over
quantity. If you are evaluating success in
504
00:32:57.220 --> 00:33:01.730
terms of numbers on the dashboard,
if you think that the quantity of output
505
00:33:01.849 --> 00:33:06.529
is going to yield results, you
are going to be left behind. So
506
00:33:06.809 --> 00:33:09.369
you need to figure out the right
ways to take what miles is said today,
507
00:33:09.410 --> 00:33:15.799
when I've said today, and to
focus on scaling quality and focusing on
508
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:22.480
those the efficiency metrics that exists between
the cracks of the output. That's going
509
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:23.680
to be the way that you rowe. That's going to be the way that
510
00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:28.509
you scale, miles. What about
you? Yeah, I would just say
511
00:33:28.549 --> 00:33:32.670
there's so much attention right now going
to getting the first call and whether it's
512
00:33:32.670 --> 00:33:37.349
a first called podcast, very first
call and sales call, and I think
513
00:33:37.430 --> 00:33:40.940
the majority of people winning are playing
patient over a couple of years to post
514
00:33:42.099 --> 00:33:45.220
every day and Linkedin like Kyle does, whether they're happier, sad or busy
515
00:33:45.740 --> 00:33:50.859
to know. James Mail's me package
is constantly like. I just think winning
516
00:33:50.900 --> 00:33:54.339
on relationships, like all these things
are doing or opening a door to start
517
00:33:54.339 --> 00:33:58.130
a relationship, and I think it's
so fun to think about how to do
518
00:33:58.170 --> 00:34:00.170
it better. But I'd say my
only advice is having set you know,
519
00:34:00.569 --> 00:34:04.289
I don't know. He said seven
up to seventy appointments a day in better,
520
00:34:04.329 --> 00:34:06.650
because the people who make money,
or the ones like sweet fish who
521
00:34:06.690 --> 00:34:08.130
actually care about the people who pick
up the phone and they're not just a
522
00:34:08.170 --> 00:34:12.280
dashboard number to Kyle's plant. I
love it. Awesome. You guys are
523
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.599
incredible. How can folks stay connected
with both of you? Linkedin is the
524
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.119
only social channel I'm active and so
check me out there. I to this
525
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:22.639
day don't really understand what tick tock
is. I don't feel like I'm missing
526
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:24.829
out on too much. So yeah, Linkedin for me, miles, what
527
00:34:24.909 --> 00:34:30.750
about you? My personal iphone,
not a texting services two hundred and three
528
00:34:30.070 --> 00:34:35.070
and six, four, one,
three, nine four zero ending text are
529
00:34:35.070 --> 00:34:37.659
Golement as much as you want and
he's all over linked into. So text
530
00:34:37.699 --> 00:34:42.940
them or or going Tom on Linkedin. One thing I love, miles,
531
00:34:42.980 --> 00:34:47.300
that you're doing you're constantly putting your
emails that you're doing for different clients as
532
00:34:47.420 --> 00:34:52.739
your content and so so, if
you're curious about how to write some of
533
00:34:52.780 --> 00:34:57.010
these emails that are really standing out
and zigging while everybody else is Zagging,
534
00:34:57.690 --> 00:35:01.050
make sure that you're following miles.
For that, Kyle, you get some
535
00:35:01.210 --> 00:35:05.570
of the best engagement I think I've
seen of anyone, and I'm in these
536
00:35:05.650 --> 00:35:08.320
circles. So if you are a
sales leader in particular, you have to
537
00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:14.559
be following Kyle's content on Linkedin.
You are going to up your game significantly
538
00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:16.480
by doing so. Both of you. Thank you so much for the time
539
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:20.519
today. This is going to be
an incredible episode. I really appreciate it.
540
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:25.909
Thanks so much. Appreciate this episode
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