Feb. 17, 2021

Lessons Learned After 3 ABM Implementations at 3 Companies

In this episode Dan Sanchez talks with Amber Bogie, lead strategist and ABM manager at Degreed, about lessons she’s learned after 3 ABM implementations at 3 companies.

Amber also talked about:

  • How she got started with ABM.
  • How she forecasted and accomplished short term wins.
  • How to better align marketing and sales goals
  • Mistakes she’s made that you should avoid.
  • How to be successful with a one-to-one campaign.
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.340 --> 00:00:08.740 welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Dan Sanchez with Sweet Fish Media, and 2 00:00:08.740 --> 00:00:13.040 I am continuing the journey into account based marketing, and by now I'm 3 00:00:13.050 --> 00:00:17.470 well into the Siri's. I'm probably 16, 17 episodes in. I've read multiple 4 00:00:17.470 --> 00:00:23.050 books, and I am honestly starting to forget what it was like to not 5 00:00:23.060 --> 00:00:26.440 understand the subject, because right now, the subject seeming so simple, I'm 6 00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:29.680 like, Oh, why doesn't everybody do this? It just makes sense. But then I 7 00:00:29.680 --> 00:00:34.030 remember the moment I had last spring when I was talking to James Carberry 8 00:00:34.030 --> 00:00:39.330 about the subject and he was talking about he said a B M, and I had to pause 9 00:00:39.330 --> 00:00:43.750 him. I was like, Wait, time out. What the heck is a B M on? And this wasn't 10 00:00:43.750 --> 00:00:49.470 that long ago for me. And then I read, uh, sand berms book first and now I 11 00:00:49.470 --> 00:00:52.910 don't remember quite what it was like to not know. I remember him explaining 12 00:00:52.910 --> 00:00:56.750 to me, and it even was a fuzzy then. So I know there's a lot of people out 13 00:00:56.750 --> 00:01:00.650 there that are still starting with the basis of not exactly understanding what 14 00:01:00.650 --> 00:01:04.430 it is, but let me drive into who we have on the show and what we're gonna 15 00:01:04.430 --> 00:01:09.010 be talking about today and the reason why I'm excited tohave Amber here is 16 00:01:09.020 --> 00:01:15.080 because she has been doing a B M for multiple companies now and is currently 17 00:01:15.090 --> 00:01:20.720 the lead strategist at Degreed. And I was talking to her over LinkedIn and 18 00:01:20.730 --> 00:01:24.100 was just excited to see someone who had acquired a lot of knowledge through 19 00:01:24.100 --> 00:01:27.520 multiple implementations. Not just one. Not just two, but three different 20 00:01:27.520 --> 00:01:31.020 implementations and a member. I know you've told me you've won a B Emmy 21 00:01:31.020 --> 00:01:34.520 Awards. You've been all over the place. And I'm excited now because now that 22 00:01:34.520 --> 00:01:38.180 I've gotten past, like, the basic stuff I'm excited to kind of hear, like the 23 00:01:38.190 --> 00:01:42.220 ins and outs of what you've learned and cover that here on the show today. So 24 00:01:42.230 --> 00:01:46.230 thanks so much for joining me on the show. Thank you for having me. Yeah, 25 00:01:46.240 --> 00:01:50.160 it's nice to hear you remind me of that. What? It's almost hard to remember what 26 00:01:50.160 --> 00:01:54.420 it was like to not know A B. Um, and I've been doing this for, you know, for 27 00:01:54.420 --> 00:01:59.050 five years now, And I have to for I have to remember sometimes that there. 28 00:01:59.140 --> 00:02:02.150 There are people that don't know what it is. And I run into that all the time. 29 00:02:02.150 --> 00:02:08.699 Of course, in my field. And yeah, it Z, I've been speaking the language for so 30 00:02:08.710 --> 00:02:14.680 long that I eat, sleep, breathe a B m all the time. So I'm excited to be here 31 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:19.260 to talk about when my very favorite things? Absolutely. I just as of this, 32 00:02:19.270 --> 00:02:23.210 Siri's has been going on natural. I've been posting about it on LinkedIn, but 33 00:02:23.220 --> 00:02:26.300 every once in a while I'm still getting comments that are still like, What is 34 00:02:26.300 --> 00:02:29.940 account based marketing? I'm like, Oh my gosh, like, are you in the B two B 35 00:02:29.940 --> 00:02:33.500 and not know about eight PM? It seems like it's the buzzword, and it's such a 36 00:02:33.500 --> 00:02:36.190 buzz where the people are like, Oh, it's not even a thing. It's just good 37 00:02:36.190 --> 00:02:40.370 marketing. It's what shouldn't even be talked about. Just everybody knows 38 00:02:40.370 --> 00:02:45.710 Target better, and you're like, No, but you know where I am, where I sit now? 39 00:02:45.710 --> 00:02:51.960 Almost. I mean, when I started doing a B m. You know, 2016 or so, it was 40 00:02:51.970 --> 00:02:56.620 definitely early, early A B m days, and I mean you'll hear from people saying 41 00:02:56.620 --> 00:02:59.910 like I was doing a B m you know, actual marketers that we're doing a b m 42 00:02:59.920 --> 00:03:03.710 earlier that like that existed. But, you know, around the time that Sandra 43 00:03:03.720 --> 00:03:07.330 started socializing it in writing books about it, you know, because he sort of, 44 00:03:07.340 --> 00:03:11.720 you know, the father of Avian to most of us with his, you know, working with 45 00:03:11.720 --> 00:03:16.390 the foot, my final I am of the philosophy now that if you don't have a 46 00:03:16.390 --> 00:03:21.320 navy, um, strategy, you're not really thinking strategically. Um, in addition, 47 00:03:21.320 --> 00:03:26.140 I do believe that a B M really isn't that complicated. We overcomplicate it 48 00:03:26.140 --> 00:03:31.820 quite a bit, and it should be embedded with within every B two b organization. 49 00:03:31.830 --> 00:03:36.910 Just it's not one size fits all thing. You have to optimize it created for how 50 00:03:36.910 --> 00:03:41.860 it works within your organization, your team size the market. But it really is 51 00:03:41.860 --> 00:03:46.740 just strategic marketing and partnership with the sales team. I mean, 52 00:03:46.740 --> 00:03:50.750 it's it's not that complicated, though it's complicated to implement. I will 53 00:03:50.750 --> 00:03:54.730 say that that's fun, I think towards the end of this interview, since we 54 00:03:54.730 --> 00:03:57.320 kind of already know we're gonna be talking about a bit, I think I'm gonna 55 00:03:57.330 --> 00:04:00.580 earmark to come back at the end of this interview and ask you about some 56 00:04:00.580 --> 00:04:03.750 hypothetical situations. I'm like, OK, but what about this situation? Would 57 00:04:03.750 --> 00:04:07.890 you still implement a B M? So we'll cover those at the end. We have enough 58 00:04:07.890 --> 00:04:11.410 time, but let's get started with. You said you've been in it for four or five 59 00:04:11.410 --> 00:04:15.070 years. Now, back when it was first, when the at least the term was being 60 00:04:15.070 --> 00:04:18.209 coined. Tell us, how did you get started? And how were you first 61 00:04:18.209 --> 00:04:24.210 introduced to it? So I definitely stumbled into a B M on accident. I was 62 00:04:24.210 --> 00:04:30.490 with a software company and our CMO that came in wanted to implement a B. M. 63 00:04:30.490 --> 00:04:35.220 He was, you know, new of the trend. Heard of it decided that, you know, as 64 00:04:35.220 --> 00:04:39.310 a team, we were going to implement this new strategy. So I called that kind of 65 00:04:39.310 --> 00:04:46.160 like the training wheels experience where we we kind of figured it out as 66 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:51.120 we went. I our entire marketing, you know, team of you know, maybe 12 people. 67 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:56.200 We're all we're all navigating that the blind leading the blind. And that was 68 00:04:56.200 --> 00:05:04.300 like a crash course in what a B M waas that I feel like a success of that 69 00:05:04.300 --> 00:05:09.670 experience was really building the foundation of a B M. I was very 70 00:05:09.670 --> 00:05:13.630 fortunate to work with a very talented marketing ops person, So I learned the 71 00:05:13.640 --> 00:05:17.950 ins and outs of tagging your accounts, grading your accounts, tagging your 72 00:05:17.950 --> 00:05:23.310 contacts, personas all that, and it really set me up for success with a B M. 73 00:05:23.320 --> 00:05:28.090 Is it all kind of started there and for me personally, I when I when I went on 74 00:05:28.090 --> 00:05:33.100 to look for other jobs later on, wasn't excited about, you know, the 75 00:05:33.110 --> 00:05:38.780 traditional demand general that I have had come from. I realized how much a VM 76 00:05:38.780 --> 00:05:43.600 excited me on DSO. I kind of took a leap of faith because this back then 77 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:48.750 there were weren't really any jobs called a B m anything, and I happened 78 00:05:48.750 --> 00:05:52.600 to find a company that was looking for someone to build a B M who had 79 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:58.010 experience, which was very rare at the time. So that's, you know, kind of what 80 00:05:58.020 --> 00:06:02.620 led me down. The path of a VM is just kind of discovering the passion for it. 81 00:06:02.620 --> 00:06:07.570 And I spent, you know, the last three years building a bm foundation 82 00:06:07.570 --> 00:06:13.750 strategies at various companies. And so, yeah, first role doing a B M success 83 00:06:13.750 --> 00:06:17.920 was the foundation work. And that set me up for success later on so that when 84 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:23.210 I did go and do it so low, I knew kind of the deep down, you know, nitty 85 00:06:23.210 --> 00:06:28.150 gritty, important things you need to focus on which data is king when it 86 00:06:28.150 --> 00:06:32.890 comes to a B. M. What was a failure there, though, was definitely the sales 87 00:06:32.890 --> 00:06:36.600 enablement. And, you know, I think that was just a symptom of us all figuring 88 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:42.160 out what it was we were doing. And I've definitely taken those lessons and 89 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:46.020 carried them through, you know, other implementations. And what's really 90 00:06:46.020 --> 00:06:50.320 interesting is that with the different companies, we all started with 91 00:06:50.330 --> 00:06:56.350 different strategies. So the first iteration was again the team all team 92 00:06:56.350 --> 00:07:03.010 approach. Everyone was all hands in, and we definitely did more one too many. 93 00:07:03.020 --> 00:07:08.720 We started out with one too many and later moved to someone toe ones. Okay, 94 00:07:08.730 --> 00:07:12.420 so give me, Give me some context. Like, how big was the company? Like What was 95 00:07:12.420 --> 00:07:16.900 Ah, deal size looking like for our targets? Yeah, like at this first 96 00:07:16.900 --> 00:07:20.080 company. You were implementing a B M all the way through, like how much was 97 00:07:20.090 --> 00:07:25.500 like an average deal worth and how many employees were at the company. Well, so 98 00:07:25.510 --> 00:07:29.280 in every organization I've implemented, it's always been after enterprise level 99 00:07:29.290 --> 00:07:34.120 accounts. So it's always been 100 thousands. Yeah, so definitely in the 100 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:40.210 thousands revenue and, you know, minimum five million. Maybe 10 million. 101 00:07:40.220 --> 00:07:45.240 Eso really just not going after, I don't think Yeah, I think that was 102 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:50.180 probably the lowest revenue that we went after. Um, the second company was, 103 00:07:50.190 --> 00:07:55.330 you know, significantly higher and tended to be in the billions. So yeah, 104 00:07:55.340 --> 00:08:01.190 eso starting with that experience and then the second company that I built 105 00:08:01.200 --> 00:08:07.350 the strategy at was me. Was my first time writing solo on that. And we based 106 00:08:07.350 --> 00:08:11.390 on the company structure and the objectives we started with a one toe 107 00:08:11.390 --> 00:08:16.660 one approach, and that was a whole different experience and definitely 108 00:08:16.660 --> 00:08:24.050 positives and negatives for sure. Learned I'd say that I really was able 109 00:08:24.050 --> 00:08:28.300 thio figure out how to be successful with a 1 to 1 campaign like 110 00:08:28.310 --> 00:08:33.419 personalizing the hell out of it. So some great success stories there, but 111 00:08:33.419 --> 00:08:36.840 again, I probably say one of the struggles There was also sales 112 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:42.179 Enablement. Looking back, you know at the time probably wasn't significantly 113 00:08:42.179 --> 00:08:46.410 aware of the you know, what wasn't working and where we were still 114 00:08:46.410 --> 00:08:51.760 struggling. But, you know, taking those you know, those two different companies 115 00:08:51.940 --> 00:08:57.240 at my current company. We started our strategy. We started with actually 116 00:08:57.250 --> 00:09:02.680 opposite. We started going one too few and then building towards one toe one. 117 00:09:02.690 --> 00:09:06.720 But what was hugely successful and I think there's probably a list of a lot 118 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:10.960 of success is that my current company, which I feel is by far the most 119 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:14.600 successful A B M program that I've implemented problem because of a lot of 120 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:18.460 different lessons along the way. I really focused on sales enablement 121 00:09:18.740 --> 00:09:24.190 really heavily focused on it. And I see the massive impact that it has so 122 00:09:24.190 --> 00:09:28.480 define. How are you defining sales enablement. Do you kind of mean like 123 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:33.030 the area of, say, like activation within the team framework? Are you 124 00:09:33.030 --> 00:09:37.060 talking about after activation all the stuff that salespeople need toe carry 125 00:09:37.060 --> 00:09:45.160 it through to revenue Everything, to be honest, educating them on what A B M is 126 00:09:45.170 --> 00:09:50.440 educating them on the framework um, setting up honestly, things like daily 127 00:09:50.450 --> 00:09:55.610 the daily sales workflow, something that I put together for sales reps that 128 00:09:55.620 --> 00:10:00.490 that have, quite frankly been, you know, running a B m. You know, on their own 129 00:10:00.490 --> 00:10:05.000 without the marketing portion for years and years. Account based selling when 130 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:08.670 they would say, Well, Owen, accountant to it, What do I dio you know? So like 131 00:10:08.680 --> 00:10:12.490 walking them through? Here's the suggested actions. Here's what the data 132 00:10:12.490 --> 00:10:18.880 means just honestly. It's just just it's just deciphering a new language. 133 00:10:18.880 --> 00:10:23.320 But they already speak, you know, they already know what to do their sales. 134 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:29.030 People were literally just translating the language for them, and then they 135 00:10:29.030 --> 00:10:35.780 get it. So taking the time to set up sort of a structure thio enable them on. 136 00:10:35.790 --> 00:10:39.860 This is what a B M is. These are The reports that we have here is the data. 137 00:10:39.870 --> 00:10:44.480 Here's what it means. Here is why it's important. Thio understand the pain 138 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:48.640 points you know of these particular accounts things like intent data that 139 00:10:48.640 --> 00:10:53.810 they have never worked with before that kind of stuff and then another reason I 140 00:10:53.810 --> 00:10:58.030 feel like the enablement is so valuable because unfortunately, sales is a 141 00:10:58.030 --> 00:11:02.730 revolving door, and you have, you know, your SDRs even more so than your sales 142 00:11:02.730 --> 00:11:07.480 people. You have them come in and SDRs or a lot younger, generally less 143 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:12.370 experience. And so you kinda have to set up a system of kind of training. So 144 00:11:12.370 --> 00:11:17.450 we've built into our on boarding in a B M training, and then from there we have, 145 00:11:17.460 --> 00:11:21.840 you know, certain assets and documents to kind of guide them through the 146 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:26.760 process. We also have someone who's dedicated specifically on my team as a 147 00:11:26.760 --> 00:11:32.560 sales liaison, and that has been day and night in terms of, you know, my my 148 00:11:32.570 --> 00:11:38.220 past experience. So it sounds like it's a lot more than sales enablement and 149 00:11:38.220 --> 00:11:41.720 that at least what my understanding of a sales enablement is that sales 150 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:46.320 enablement to me is like marketing for sales. It's the marketing tools that 151 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:50.300 sales gets in order to help them achieve their goals. But what I'm here, 152 00:11:50.300 --> 00:11:55.340 you unpacking. It's like it's full on like sales process. It's sales systems 153 00:11:55.340 --> 00:11:58.370 on boarding structure is essentially all the stuff you need to scale the 154 00:11:58.370 --> 00:12:01.960 sales part of the organization. You're you're digging into actually like 155 00:12:02.340 --> 00:12:06.750 building out sales. Yeah, I mean, I've worked with sales enablement teams 156 00:12:06.750 --> 00:12:09.850 before, and so perhaps that's why I coined it. Sales enablement because it 157 00:12:09.850 --> 00:12:14.460 feels very similar to what the sales enablement teams, too. But I like to 158 00:12:14.460 --> 00:12:18.780 think of us as like a function, Ah, function. Our team we're marketers were 159 00:12:18.780 --> 00:12:22.530 marketing. We're constantly running campaigns. We're constantly measuring 160 00:12:22.530 --> 00:12:26.710 or looking at data. We're delivering that data, but I really think that it 161 00:12:26.710 --> 00:12:31.830 is a big responsibility of the A B M team to ensure that their teams are 162 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:36.940 enabled and and know how to take action on. That's. I think it's a growing pain 163 00:12:36.950 --> 00:12:42.130 for every implementation ever. I think it's a there's a, you know, a period of 164 00:12:42.140 --> 00:12:46.420 six months to a year when you have a navy. Um, strategy going off the ground 165 00:12:46.420 --> 00:12:50.020 doesn't mean you're not having impact early on. Doesn't mean that six months 166 00:12:50.020 --> 00:12:53.580 to a year before you see you know, pipeline or close one. I'm just saying 167 00:12:53.580 --> 00:12:58.220 it six months to a year before I think that the flywheel, you know is going 168 00:12:58.220 --> 00:13:02.900 without any kind of stops. So you mentioned that this is all the things 169 00:13:02.900 --> 00:13:05.870 you're mentioning. It's like it's deep work. It's a lot of work. It takes a 170 00:13:05.870 --> 00:13:09.910 while to see the fruit of it while you're working on all these things. 171 00:13:09.920 --> 00:13:13.350 Like, what are you doing in the short term To kind of get things going to 172 00:13:13.350 --> 00:13:17.320 kind of keep leaders happy and that they've they've hired you that they've 173 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:20.300 started this a PM thing like, what are some short term wins that you were able 174 00:13:20.300 --> 00:13:25.500 to produce? Yeah, well, I like to kind of call the strategy at degreed a dual 175 00:13:25.500 --> 00:13:31.160 pronged approach strategy where we built the foundation as we started 176 00:13:31.160 --> 00:13:35.560 campaigns. So we have, you know, almost two on the train tracks, you know, two 177 00:13:35.570 --> 00:13:39.730 side by side. So because you can't go into organization and say, Hey, I mean, 178 00:13:39.740 --> 00:13:43.100 some people do this, but you can't go into organization and say, Hey, it's 179 00:13:43.100 --> 00:13:47.800 gonna be a year before you see impact. That's not really gonna fly with the 180 00:13:47.800 --> 00:13:51.790 sea level, right? You're gonna need to show some ones, but they do need to 181 00:13:51.790 --> 00:13:55.120 understand that foundation where it takes a lot of time and then change 182 00:13:55.120 --> 00:14:01.450 Management does a swell. So working on that the entire time scaling off our 183 00:14:01.450 --> 00:14:09.200 programs, we started early on with 1 to 1 too. Few more like air cover digital 184 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:14.510 campaigns with our events team. We had all of our accounts elected. And, you 185 00:14:14.510 --> 00:14:17.940 know, we got through, you know, the account selection process fairly 186 00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:21.440 quickly. And then we're able to just start running campaigns to create 187 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:26.300 engagement, get them to events. This is the world when events were happening in 188 00:14:26.300 --> 00:14:30.620 person on we had some pretty good, you know, we had really, really the results 189 00:14:30.620 --> 00:14:35.880 with those. Actually, the early numbers were, you know, at least 50% of all 190 00:14:35.880 --> 00:14:40.050 attendees were from A B M Target Accounts s Oh, you know, just starting 191 00:14:40.050 --> 00:14:45.860 there and then the first the first campaign really like true, you know, 192 00:14:45.860 --> 00:14:51.640 and to end a B M campaign that we did. We ended up having to pivot it because 193 00:14:51.640 --> 00:14:57.290 of all of events getting canceled. I mean, I'm sure other people for saw 194 00:14:57.290 --> 00:15:01.180 this, but I first saw as things started to change. Okay, We're gonna need to 195 00:15:01.180 --> 00:15:06.060 shift digital events Team is going to be impacted. I How can me and my team 196 00:15:06.060 --> 00:15:10.300 helped support the organization. So I took immediately took our campaign and 197 00:15:10.300 --> 00:15:15.450 tripled he accounts. And that was our first true a BM campaign at Degreed And 198 00:15:15.740 --> 00:15:19.900 we had pretty significant results with that camp with that campaign generated 199 00:15:19.900 --> 00:15:25.760 $3 million you know, over a couple months with with that effort and eso I 200 00:15:25.760 --> 00:15:31.890 mean, we had these little winds along the way and I, you know, was very I 201 00:15:31.890 --> 00:15:36.910 made a lot of effort to communicate the pipeline growth. One thing that I did I 202 00:15:36.910 --> 00:15:41.510 guess this is another good point was communicating winds. And here's just 203 00:15:41.510 --> 00:15:45.520 kind of like another belief that I have about a B. M. So we build up these 204 00:15:45.520 --> 00:15:49.950 dashboards. We built out reports to track every campaign that we're running. 205 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:55.410 But every single Monday for the last I don't know, almost a year I've been 206 00:15:55.420 --> 00:16:00.570 looking at the numbers and what I do is I look at a B M campaign impact and all 207 00:16:00.580 --> 00:16:07.610 a VM accounts, and I'm looking at all the avian accounts because A B M is 208 00:16:07.620 --> 00:16:12.250 beyond the campaign. It is, you know, the orchestration of marketing sales, 209 00:16:12.250 --> 00:16:15.190 working together, focusing on right accounts, utilizing the data, going 210 00:16:15.190 --> 00:16:18.260 after the right accounts when they're, you know, em queuing, showing 211 00:16:18.260 --> 00:16:23.460 engagement. And so every week I was able to deliver not only campaign 212 00:16:23.460 --> 00:16:28.890 impact, but here's the impact of our sales team working the right accounts. 213 00:16:28.900 --> 00:16:34.410 And we started seeing massive growth in our pipeline, and within six months we 214 00:16:34.410 --> 00:16:41.030 had $50 million in pipeline focusing on these accounts. And that's not a credit 215 00:16:41.030 --> 00:16:47.250 to the A B M team for existing. It's a credit to the team's focusing on the 216 00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:51.720 right areas, utilizing the data that's available in the sales doing their jobs 217 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:56.350 because they were always going to go after accounts, you know. So when we 218 00:16:56.350 --> 00:17:01.720 looked at the numbers and compared year over year and then a VM versus non A B 219 00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:08.640 M year over year, we had three times the amount of pipeline from previous on 220 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:14.280 our A B M accounts. So just focusing on the accounts show the three x on den 221 00:17:14.280 --> 00:17:21.010 when we looked at during the current year. Compared to non avian accounts, 222 00:17:21.020 --> 00:17:27.569 we have three x opportunity size and almost three x engagement, so I was 223 00:17:27.569 --> 00:17:34.020 able to deliver, you know, wins by just showing them along the way. Here's the 224 00:17:34.030 --> 00:17:41.490 impact. Here's what's happening. Things are growing, you know, it wasn't until 225 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:45.290 probably this last quarter that we started seeing or last quarter that we 226 00:17:45.290 --> 00:17:51.370 actually started seeing things close. And that's been that's been fun because 227 00:17:51.380 --> 00:17:56.080 the plane is amazing, right? But like three X pipeline and three X deal size 228 00:17:56.080 --> 00:17:56.960 and you're like, dang 229 00:17:58.040 --> 00:18:01.440 possible that you could hit three x revenue growth. But you never You never 230 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:04.450 know how things whittled down. But with that much more engagement I'm like 231 00:18:04.460 --> 00:18:09.450 That's possible, but you'll see it through over the next quarter. Way. 232 00:18:09.450 --> 00:18:14.030 Also recently determined that are evacuated. Opportunity rate is 3% 233 00:18:14.030 --> 00:18:19.270 higher than RM Quell Thio opportunity, which can result in a few million 234 00:18:19.270 --> 00:18:22.990 dollars a quarter. So I mean, that alone is I think that the proof is 235 00:18:22.990 --> 00:18:27.840 there. I don't I don't think that we need Thio. Continue Thio. Prove the 236 00:18:27.840 --> 00:18:32.590 value of it. I believe without question that our leaders see it. Our sales 237 00:18:32.590 --> 00:18:38.530 people see it. It's just continuing to what I say. Fill in the holes off. You 238 00:18:38.530 --> 00:18:43.050 know what's you know what's still not working, what's still hard and with 239 00:18:43.060 --> 00:18:47.440 that I've developed SL agreements between the team. So I recently just 240 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:51.940 finished a Nestle agreement between my str team and in that process identified, 241 00:18:51.950 --> 00:18:56.690 you know, holes Where can we improve now? I'm moving. Thio, implement an s L 242 00:18:56.690 --> 00:19:01.240 A with our our sales directors. And this is, you know, where I've been a 243 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:06.570 degree for over a year. We've, you know, seen great impact. But I'm I'm an 244 00:19:06.570 --> 00:19:12.980 example of continuous improvement. And I mean, I'm going to continue to grow 245 00:19:12.990 --> 00:19:17.440 success. I'm continue to grow the team. We've seen success, but I'm certainly 246 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:21.980 not done. Yes, when you when Sometimes you wish in marketing, you could get 247 00:19:21.980 --> 00:19:24.660 paid on commission Sometimes if you could prove it better, right? You're 248 00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:27.430 like, Oh, man, I wish you were like sales. Sometimes this could be very 249 00:19:27.430 --> 00:19:31.360 lucrative. Well, that's a whole another can of worms because some some 250 00:19:31.370 --> 00:19:34.820 organizations, I mean, there's talk about this in the peak community 251 00:19:34.820 --> 00:19:40.090 sometimes, uh, the topic of, you know, marketing reporting under you know, 252 00:19:40.100 --> 00:19:42.860 this is marketing and sales reporting under the same line of business, 253 00:19:43.040 --> 00:19:47.160 marketing and sales, having the same goals. And you know, marketers, whether 254 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.750 or not they're, you know, working not necessarily on commission, but bonuses, 255 00:19:50.750 --> 00:19:56.410 bonus structures. I am a firm believer in having the same goals of sales. I 256 00:19:56.410 --> 00:20:01.350 did have a role at one company where I did move under the sales organization. 257 00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:07.390 And again, that's probably where my kind of strong belief system and 258 00:20:07.390 --> 00:20:11.210 supporting your sales team is is because I worked a lot closer with them. 259 00:20:11.210 --> 00:20:14.880 And that's when our goals were actually aligned just based on the structure. 260 00:20:14.890 --> 00:20:19.770 And I came into degree and, you know, I said, under marketing and because I 261 00:20:19.770 --> 00:20:24.080 mean, I leave the team. I said, I said Our goals. But I look at I look at the 262 00:20:24.080 --> 00:20:28.150 sales revenue goals projected, and that's how I set our goals for every 263 00:20:28.150 --> 00:20:34.000 year of Recorder E. Josh, what do you think is the most irritating thing for 264 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:37.390 B two B buyers right now, man? Logan, I love talking to you about this. You 265 00:20:37.390 --> 00:20:42.160 know that the number one challenge right now is that many customer facing 266 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:46.470 teams in the B two B space right now are forcing their potential buyers too, 267 00:20:46.470 --> 00:20:50.280 by the way that they want to sell. Buyers don't wanna buy that way right 268 00:20:50.280 --> 00:20:54.980 now. They wanna, by the way they want to buy. We need to enable those buyers. 269 00:20:54.980 --> 00:20:59.100 We call this buyer enablement at sales reach. We need to enable those buyers 270 00:20:59.110 --> 00:21:03.500 to make better decisions quicker in a comfortable environment that's more 271 00:21:03.500 --> 00:21:07.190 personalized for them to move forward with that process. Dude, that's awesome. 272 00:21:07.190 --> 00:21:10.750 I couldn't agree more. Since I've been using sales reach in my own sales 273 00:21:10.750 --> 00:21:15.250 process, it's allowed me to really enable the buyer to move more quickly 274 00:21:15.250 --> 00:21:18.850 in really two ways. One, they don't have to download a bunch of attachments. 275 00:21:18.850 --> 00:21:23.090 Aiken send them toe one page with the proposal. Case studies Different 276 00:21:23.090 --> 00:21:26.840 resource is because, let's face it, the proposal is just one part of the sales 277 00:21:26.840 --> 00:21:30.970 conversation and probably on Lee one sales enablement piece of content that 278 00:21:30.970 --> 00:21:35.010 you're sending so it makes it easier on them. And then the other thing is, you 279 00:21:35.010 --> 00:21:38.470 know, we're selling to our champions, and then we're making them have to re 280 00:21:38.470 --> 00:21:42.060 give our pitch to the entire buying committee. So one thing I do is put a 281 00:21:42.060 --> 00:21:46.350 custom 2 to 3 minute video on the top of my sales reach page that says, Hey, 282 00:21:46.350 --> 00:21:49.430 here's all the resource is tie it back to the conversation. Here's the 283 00:21:49.430 --> 00:21:52.870 proposal. Let me know if you have any questions and it allows me to give a 284 00:21:52.870 --> 00:21:56.210 little bit of kind of a mini pitch to the rest of the buying committee. 285 00:21:56.220 --> 00:22:00.110 Introduce myself, which helps me build trust and credibility and helps the 286 00:22:00.110 --> 00:22:04.940 buyer not have to repeat the entire pitch from scratch. So if anybody is 287 00:22:04.940 --> 00:22:08.180 looking to do the same thing in their own sales process, I'd highly suggest 288 00:22:08.180 --> 00:22:11.420 they reach out to you and the team over its sales. Reach for anybody listening. 289 00:22:11.420 --> 00:22:18.260 Just go to sales reach dot io. To talk to Josh and the team makes sense for 290 00:22:18.260 --> 00:22:24.400 somebody walking in who's still pretty fresh new to E B m like myself. What 291 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.060 are some lessons or some mistakes you've made in the past that you're 292 00:22:27.060 --> 00:22:34.690 like you would warn? Warn a Nubian? Well, I mean lessons and mistakes e me. 293 00:22:34.690 --> 00:22:41.530 There's so many. What is so hard shoes? Give me top three. Top three. Yeah, so 294 00:22:41.530 --> 00:22:47.660 I think like lesson number one is make best friends with operations. Whether 295 00:22:47.660 --> 00:22:51.050 they're your marketing officer, your sales ops, it depends on your structure 296 00:22:51.050 --> 00:22:57.150 at your company. But they say that you know the number one failure of A B M is 297 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:00.910 the lack of alignment between sales marketing. Absolutely true. Another 298 00:23:00.910 --> 00:23:06.870 massive failure of A B M is not having cooperation. Support were so data 299 00:23:06.870 --> 00:23:11.520 driven. I often, you know, show our dashboards other people in the 300 00:23:11.520 --> 00:23:14.850 organization, and they're like, Oh my God, these dashboards or oh, you have 301 00:23:14.850 --> 00:23:19.800 such great numbers because we have access to it. It's a make it a priority 302 00:23:19.810 --> 00:23:23.820 because we aren't just marketing for the sake of marketing, they have to 303 00:23:23.820 --> 00:23:29.160 measure the impact and especially with a B M. When it is such a hard thing to 304 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:35.000 measure when you're going through. Ah, a deal that takes an entire year. You 305 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:38.470 know, depending on how long you're buying cycle is, there's gonna be a lot 306 00:23:38.470 --> 00:23:44.420 of different layers of that impact. And, you know, like I don't really sit on 307 00:23:44.420 --> 00:23:49.100 the side of Oh, here's exactly where we knew the deal close and it was this one, 308 00:23:49.110 --> 00:23:53.600 you know, this one action that they took to me. I'm a believer in It's all. 309 00:23:53.610 --> 00:23:58.620 It's the entire experience from, you know, from start to finish, and it is a 310 00:23:58.620 --> 00:24:04.890 shared, you know, it's a shared credit to me between teams, and I'm just happy 311 00:24:04.890 --> 00:24:09.630 to support the sales. The sales team in this I tell the sales team almost every 312 00:24:09.630 --> 00:24:12.590 time I talk to them are probably sick of me saying this. We're here to 313 00:24:12.590 --> 00:24:16.550 support. You were literally here to make you more money. That is what we're 314 00:24:16.550 --> 00:24:20.720 here to Dio. That's what my job is, right for the company s Oh, yeah, a 315 00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:25.760 lesson in that is make best friends with operations because you need data 316 00:24:25.770 --> 00:24:29.330 to succeed. If you're Salesforce's, what did you do to make best friends 317 00:24:29.330 --> 00:24:35.500 with them? Well, I've been lucky, I'd say, um, at my current role because I 318 00:24:35.510 --> 00:24:39.360 came onto, you know, the structures change of it. But I came onto the team 319 00:24:39.840 --> 00:24:44.460 and I worked very closely with our marketing ops person. And hey, ended up 320 00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:49.330 coming over into my team had an interest in a B. M. So I actually 321 00:24:49.330 --> 00:24:54.870 created a hybrid ops role. So he's an avian manager hybrid off. So he owns 322 00:24:54.870 --> 00:24:59.080 all of our avian mops. So I mean, it's a very unique situation, but I would 323 00:24:59.080 --> 00:25:05.300 say, um, you know, like just like a B m, you have to a B m internally, you know, 324 00:25:05.310 --> 00:25:08.620 get to know your get to know your team, get to know your sales people like, 325 00:25:08.620 --> 00:25:12.760 make relationships. I think that probably goes into another lesson is 326 00:25:12.760 --> 00:25:18.510 like make the relationships with your sales people because you will be 327 00:25:18.520 --> 00:25:24.280 running into walls over and over and over again. If you can't learn to kind 328 00:25:24.280 --> 00:25:30.220 of learn how they work, learn how they sell. So if you work with five 329 00:25:30.230 --> 00:25:35.130 different sales people, one of them, one of them prefers to have, you know, 330 00:25:35.140 --> 00:25:38.800 data delivered directly to him. One of them needs to get walked through 331 00:25:38.800 --> 00:25:43.540 everything. One of them wants to have templates. You know, it's figuring out 332 00:25:43.540 --> 00:25:48.420 how each sales person work, I think, is gonna make your job easier in the long 333 00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:53.260 run. When I spent time doing a lot of one toe ones at my last organization, I 334 00:25:53.260 --> 00:25:58.680 kind of just started to pay attention to how certain salespeople operated. 335 00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:02.880 And one of them wanted to talk for 15 minutes of the pain of every call and 336 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.170 just like what was going on his life And, you know, just just personal 337 00:26:06.170 --> 00:26:10.090 conversation that cemented our relationship so that he was a better 338 00:26:10.100 --> 00:26:13.690 partner. Another one needed to get walked through it, and sometimes I 339 00:26:13.690 --> 00:26:17.180 would just sit on calls and just kind of walk him through certain things or 340 00:26:17.190 --> 00:26:19.720 we would, you know, haven't asked of him. And it was something that I 341 00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:23.920 couldn't dio I would only he could dio. But what? I would sit on the call and 342 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:29.940 answer your questions. A z he needed them. So, I mean, I'd like to say you 343 00:26:29.940 --> 00:26:34.420 need a b m. Your organization. You know, personalized. I was just thinking that 344 00:26:34.420 --> 00:26:37.480 same thing. It sounds like you're doing one. The one to all the sales guys. 345 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:46.630 Yeah. Really? Honestly. So be a decent human. That Zalmay, my perspective. But 346 00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:52.490 on the same note, you also need to set boundaries within your team. And, you 347 00:26:52.490 --> 00:26:56.430 know, if you have, you have leadership support within your organization. Um, 348 00:26:56.430 --> 00:27:00.730 and you're not getting, you know, the sales people. And you're not getting 349 00:27:00.730 --> 00:27:04.730 the right information for maybe once one campaign or they're not engaging, 350 00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:09.520 then I'm blacklisting them. We have 80 something sales reps and I have a team 351 00:27:09.520 --> 00:27:13.290 of three. I have a lot of, you know, impact to drive for this organization. 352 00:27:13.290 --> 00:27:18.860 So I'm gonna move on to someone who's more engaged. So on the same exact same, 353 00:27:18.860 --> 00:27:23.250 you know, side it's be kind. Be respectful. Get to know your people, 354 00:27:23.260 --> 00:27:27.830 but also ensure that your goals are in the right place. Your focus in the 355 00:27:27.830 --> 00:27:32.310 right place and, you know, do your due diligence to train and enable them on 356 00:27:32.310 --> 00:27:37.960 how to be good A B M support salespeople, but work with the reps 357 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:43.070 that are engaged in see value because you can't force the value on them over 358 00:27:43.070 --> 00:27:49.080 time. Those stubborn people, they're going to come asking for that treatment 359 00:27:49.090 --> 00:27:51.680 because they're seeing the success elsewhere. They're hearing about the 360 00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:55.750 success elsewhere. So So what I hear you saying is that you're making 361 00:27:55.750 --> 00:27:59.970 friends with everybody by just spending time with them, getting to know them in 362 00:27:59.970 --> 00:28:04.500 doing so, you kind of get a feel for how to serve them, how toe figure out 363 00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:08.770 what they want and then meet that sometimes you're just listening year. 364 00:28:08.770 --> 00:28:11.690 Sometimes you're helping them meet their quota by giving them step by step 365 00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:15.910 instructions. Sometimes you're being whatever you need to be thio each sales 366 00:28:15.910 --> 00:28:20.090 person in order to help them win, and for different people at different times, 367 00:28:20.090 --> 00:28:24.290 it means different things. But you you did then go back and spend your the 368 00:28:24.290 --> 00:28:28.370 most amount of your time, energy and attention on the ones who were taking. 369 00:28:28.740 --> 00:28:33.970 We're doing the most right. And then by doing so, you created more success with 370 00:28:33.970 --> 00:28:39.430 them and made everybody else, uh made it obvious that a b m and partnering 371 00:28:39.430 --> 00:28:44.660 with you was the route to go. Yeah, and how I talked about that dual pronged 372 00:28:44.660 --> 00:28:48.540 approach with implementation. We almost had the same. We almost had a dual 373 00:28:48.540 --> 00:28:53.170 pronged approach. When I came to like the A B M campaign type, we started 374 00:28:53.170 --> 00:28:59.320 with one too few, and then we moved to 1 to 1. So we my whole thought process 375 00:28:59.320 --> 00:29:04.080 behind, starting with one too few was to basically be able to support the 376 00:29:04.080 --> 00:29:09.020 global sales team. So I've done in different ways. And I wanted Thio as 377 00:29:09.020 --> 00:29:13.680 the foundation was building to enable the sales team to be self serving so 378 00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:16.910 that they could understand the concept of a B, um, strategy. Have their 379 00:29:16.910 --> 00:29:23.030 accounts go after target accounts, Have you no air cover campaigns? What have 380 00:29:23.030 --> 00:29:28.020 you building? Engagement. And then once we kind of got that in motion, we 381 00:29:28.020 --> 00:29:32.280 started to be able to focus on one toe once bigger wins. But everybody's 382 00:29:32.280 --> 00:29:38.770 winning here because we have the global team access to a B. M. They are getting 383 00:29:38.770 --> 00:29:44.890 weekly updates not just from reports but from our A B M sales leaves on. She 384 00:29:44.890 --> 00:29:48.520 sends the highest activity updates, you know, based on our dashboard, the most 385 00:29:48.520 --> 00:29:52.000 important things, you know, we're kind of sending out to them and then we're 386 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:57.180 doing We're doing 1 to 1 campaigns with our most engaged dress. So we also got 387 00:29:57.180 --> 00:30:02.260 to see as we started that broad campaign effort, who was the engaged 388 00:30:02.260 --> 00:30:06.970 person who was excited, who cared whose fault value who did never respond to a 389 00:30:06.970 --> 00:30:12.390 slack ever. That was what allowed us to see who is gonna be a great candidate 390 00:30:12.390 --> 00:30:18.200 for once. Once, um, it's definitely strengthened, like the and, say, the 391 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:23.540 value of Abyan within the organization the value of you know, my team across 392 00:30:23.540 --> 00:30:29.980 the organization. So much so that we have just started a pilot. Are we just 393 00:30:29.980 --> 00:30:35.290 started, like launching using uber flip sale streams. So where as a team 394 00:30:35.290 --> 00:30:40.290 committed to running 51 toe once a quarter right now with late stage 395 00:30:40.290 --> 00:30:45.010 opportunities, this is what we're doing. And of course, we could only scale five 396 00:30:45.010 --> 00:30:49.550 right now, managing several their campaigns were also enabling the sales 397 00:30:49.550 --> 00:30:53.690 team. Like you know, there's a lot going on at all times. That's the dream. 398 00:30:53.700 --> 00:30:57.790 The whole thing, right? Hard to do. But once you got it running, it becomes a 399 00:30:57.790 --> 00:31:02.060 machine, right? Yeah, That's exactly what I like to refer to it as a machine. 400 00:31:02.070 --> 00:31:07.910 I think about it. E talk to my team about that all the time. Eyes that were 401 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.750 continuously running campaigns. We wanna be touching all of our a B and 402 00:31:11.750 --> 00:31:15.230 the counts as much as we can at all times. So about full funnel approach 403 00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:21.740 where we obviously are built to scale 801 ones. But we can handle this. Money 404 00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:25.330 went to one's right now we have this money, went to views and then we're 405 00:31:25.330 --> 00:31:29.980 actually partnering with our demand jin team for our one too many that top more, 406 00:31:29.980 --> 00:31:34.280 that top of funnel, which is a beautiful thing because I, like Thio, 407 00:31:34.290 --> 00:31:37.250 refer to that as like the marriage between, you know, demand Gen. And A. B 408 00:31:37.250 --> 00:31:45.790 M. And that's actually how I like to think of is a B M. A. B X is a B M to a 409 00:31:45.790 --> 00:31:50.170 B X and like Oh, no, another Another acronym with Save the Ax. I like to 410 00:31:50.170 --> 00:31:59.310 refer toa a B X well, to backtrack. A B X to me is what it should be called a B 411 00:31:59.310 --> 00:32:03.170 X ray, be account based market Arab count base. Everything is what it 412 00:32:03.170 --> 00:32:08.580 should have always been. I think that many of us see that in retrospect, but 413 00:32:08.590 --> 00:32:15.040 today, because we have a B M A B X is to me when you've successfully 414 00:32:15.050 --> 00:32:20.840 penetrated the organization within within a B M strategy. Andi. That's 415 00:32:20.840 --> 00:32:26.090 where we are now where we are. We have our various parts of the organization 416 00:32:26.090 --> 00:32:32.340 that are running their own campaigns thio our target accounts. And so that's, 417 00:32:32.350 --> 00:32:38.260 you know, definitely a more mature A B M strategy. So it's a very exciting 418 00:32:38.260 --> 00:32:42.710 time. I feel like for where we're on the organization, getting to full 419 00:32:42.710 --> 00:32:50.600 funnel a B M um, a B M to a B X, and, uh, I definitely it's the furthest I've 420 00:32:50.610 --> 00:32:55.650 gone within a VM strategy, and I'm very excited and I'm proud to be where we 421 00:32:55.650 --> 00:33:01.000 are. I couldn't have done it without a team, that's for sure. Absolutely. A B 422 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:05.460 X is something I've only heard from one other person eyes. I think his name is 423 00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:10.150 John Miller from the CMO of Demand base. He used that term as a B X, and I think 424 00:33:10.150 --> 00:33:13.730 he's actually working on a new book called A B X or something along those 425 00:33:13.730 --> 00:33:18.280 lines. I'm looking forward to getting when it comes out, so I definitely, 426 00:33:18.290 --> 00:33:22.670 totally makes sense. I understand why they named it a B M in the beginning 427 00:33:22.670 --> 00:33:25.710 because, like, sales was like already there, and they're like, No, we need to 428 00:33:25.710 --> 00:33:30.400 make the marketers feel like they get to own this too, right? So hence it was 429 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:34.290 called marketing, But it kind of threw us off when you were implementing 430 00:33:34.290 --> 00:33:38.120 because, well, its marketing, it's, you know, in marketing does this. And 431 00:33:38.130 --> 00:33:42.080 that's where a lot of times you hear sales sales. People refer to Obama's 432 00:33:42.080 --> 00:33:46.850 campaign. I'm like, No, it's not a campaign. We do campaigns, Um, it's a 433 00:33:46.860 --> 00:33:50.350 you know, it's a team effort, so I'm just constantly kind of having to 434 00:33:50.350 --> 00:33:54.730 communicate that and refreeze and explain that. But I'd be curious just 435 00:33:54.730 --> 00:34:00.000 to hear what others say about a BX, because it's not like an omnipresent 436 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:05.080 term a B a B X. I think it will eventually replace a B m in the 437 00:34:05.080 --> 00:34:10.190 terminology. But for now, I referred to as, like a maturity maturity level for 438 00:34:10.190 --> 00:34:13.409 sure. Yeah, And it makes sense that that would be the evolution, especially 439 00:34:13.409 --> 00:34:16.580 if you start to think of like, c X customer experience. You're like, well, 440 00:34:16.580 --> 00:34:20.750 our customers and account more than an individual, right, because people will 441 00:34:20.750 --> 00:34:24.130 come and go in the account. But yet you have to keep the relationship with the 442 00:34:24.130 --> 00:34:28.070 account. So even customer experience is gonna be different, Which is why a B X 443 00:34:28.080 --> 00:34:33.280 makes sense. Still, we understand it started with, like, more targeted ads. 444 00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:36.480 In the beginning, I mean, Terminus Demand base. All those guys were 445 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:40.730 targeted ad platforms, and now they're full systems. But that's where it 446 00:34:40.730 --> 00:34:44.030 started. But I'm excited to see where it goes for sure. Now, one thing you 447 00:34:44.030 --> 00:34:46.400 said at the beginning, which I said I would eventually bring it back to you. 448 00:34:46.409 --> 00:34:51.820 You would recommend a B M should be the standard strategy for B two B Pretty 449 00:34:51.820 --> 00:34:55.600 much every time you still stand by that, something to throw out some like Well, 450 00:34:55.600 --> 00:35:01.090 what about these guys? Okay, we'll see you guys. Okay. Um, no. I mean, 451 00:35:01.090 --> 00:35:05.470 generally, a B m fits the best with when you go after enterprise level 452 00:35:05.470 --> 00:35:10.840 accounts. But there's to me. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you target 453 00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:15.050 accounts even if you were going after small to medium businesses? Eso go 454 00:35:15.050 --> 00:35:18.400 ahead, let me see. So and that's that's where I'm going is with small, 455 00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:22.330 especially people is selling to small businesses. So especially your B two b 456 00:35:22.330 --> 00:35:29.280 sas who are selling 10 to $30 subscriptions, you know, So you're 457 00:35:29.290 --> 00:35:34.430 you're even You're a are are on like something like buffer. While they can 458 00:35:34.430 --> 00:35:40.130 have enterprise level packages that are like $100 a month Whoa, that's big for 459 00:35:40.130 --> 00:35:43.860 them. But generally, most of them are like 10 $15 a month kind of customers. 460 00:35:43.870 --> 00:35:48.360 So in that kind of case, I've always wondered, Like like a B M. That's gonna 461 00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:52.070 be hard, because the best you're going to do with a B M is one too many. But 462 00:35:52.070 --> 00:35:55.200 even then, there's so many small businesses and freelancers and 463 00:35:55.200 --> 00:35:59.880 consultants that could use Buffer that it seems like a B M is a little bit too 464 00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:04.190 much, and it would be better to use a more general like hub spot inbound 465 00:36:04.190 --> 00:36:08.050 marketing strategy for someone like like a buffer the social media 466 00:36:08.050 --> 00:36:14.940 management tool out there. I mean, I'd say that you can still use an A B m 467 00:36:14.940 --> 00:36:19.650 strategy by targeting the accounts you want to go after, even if it's a 468 00:36:19.650 --> 00:36:27.600 smaller revenue generating, um, contract. That means maybe you don't do 469 00:36:27.600 --> 00:36:31.770 one toe once you're not, you know, spending three months building out of 1 470 00:36:31.770 --> 00:36:35.650 to 1, you know, personalized campaign. But you're still focusing on those 471 00:36:35.650 --> 00:36:41.060 target accounts. You're still reading the signals of engagement seeing where 472 00:36:41.060 --> 00:36:44.860 you can because, I mean, the company like that's still gonna wanna grow. I'm 473 00:36:44.860 --> 00:36:48.790 sure they're gonna run to retain their customers. And one very interesting 474 00:36:48.790 --> 00:36:53.780 thing about A B M is most of the community really only talks about 475 00:36:53.780 --> 00:37:00.690 prospect, But a B M is really well served for customers. You can continue 476 00:37:00.700 --> 00:37:06.390 and lengthen your relationships by establishing a deeper relationship with 477 00:37:06.390 --> 00:37:11.700 your customers and doing simple things like direct mail swag. You know, like 478 00:37:11.700 --> 00:37:17.670 that for a customer really strengthens your relationship, feeling valued and, 479 00:37:17.670 --> 00:37:22.430 you know, getting information that's relevant to your account. I still think 480 00:37:22.430 --> 00:37:27.680 that there's a place for it. I just I'm a firm believer that a B M is not one 481 00:37:27.680 --> 00:37:33.190 size fits all. It does not fit in a box. You have to create an optimize your 482 00:37:33.190 --> 00:37:39.310 strategy for your market, your goals, your team size, your sales team. It's 483 00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:45.450 all under, you know, consideration. But to not use data to support your efforts 484 00:37:45.630 --> 00:37:50.750 and to not look at your target accounts that, to me doesn't make sense. E mean, 485 00:37:51.230 --> 00:37:54.830 I don't know. I mean, at some point, it's kind of like Okay, well, this with 486 00:37:54.830 --> 00:38:01.350 a small annual return for each customer, you could run a one to many. But I'm 487 00:38:01.350 --> 00:38:05.190 like the one too many starts to become so many that I'm like. But now, now it 488 00:38:05.190 --> 00:38:09.230 just looks like what I was doing and B to C before. Yeah, I guess I was 489 00:38:09.240 --> 00:38:14.810 different when it comes to like those kinds of campaigns I communicate and 490 00:38:14.820 --> 00:38:20.340 I'm kind of advocate that you're a bm comes into play during the sales 491 00:38:20.340 --> 00:38:25.990 portion. Um, if you're you're one too many is really, like, you know, more of 492 00:38:25.990 --> 00:38:31.420 a bolt on demand. Gen right where you're you're kind of selecting based 493 00:38:31.420 --> 00:38:35.960 on groupings of you know, the market like financial services or, you know, 494 00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:39.940 health care. You have more general messaging. It's not all personalized, 495 00:38:40.220 --> 00:38:46.050 but they're getting something that's specific to them. Where I ask for it to 496 00:38:46.050 --> 00:38:51.220 come into play is on the sales side, so we're going to create engagement here 497 00:38:51.220 --> 00:38:54.570 with more general messaging, thes marketing tactics. They're going to 498 00:38:54.570 --> 00:39:00.460 cover a broad group of accounts. You as a salesperson need Thio. You know, 499 00:39:00.460 --> 00:39:04.630 understand enough about the accounts, enough of the buyers and personalize 500 00:39:04.630 --> 00:39:09.260 your communications. So it's not to me. When I think about it, I'm like, No, 501 00:39:09.270 --> 00:39:13.450 that's not a B M O. That's what IBM I'm like. A B M can be here or here or 502 00:39:13.450 --> 00:39:17.990 anywhere in between eso. That's where I'm like. That's the opportunity you 503 00:39:17.990 --> 00:39:22.980 have to personalize. It is the sales experience. It's interesting, but what 504 00:39:22.980 --> 00:39:27.770 if they don't have a sales team? And it's self serve? Is that where you draw 505 00:39:27.770 --> 00:39:34.000 the line? Trying to find the edges like the fence of what I can define is A B M 506 00:39:34.010 --> 00:39:38.270 actually do think it's a very helpful term. I find that the term starts to 507 00:39:38.270 --> 00:39:44.180 lose somewhat of its value if it's set to broadly and it becomes too many 508 00:39:44.180 --> 00:39:47.240 things. So I'm trying to find the edges myself a someone that's still new to 509 00:39:47.240 --> 00:39:53.690 the space where a B m stops I I can see that perspective and understand it. I 510 00:39:53.690 --> 00:39:58.800 do think more broadly, I think, in general, cause I've done all these 511 00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:06.550 different like a B m on the spectrum. But where to me, What a B M is in its 512 00:40:06.550 --> 00:40:10.740 simplicity and where you, you know, draw the line around. It is you're 513 00:40:10.740 --> 00:40:15.360 using target accounts, your your accounts Attardi. Maybe you don't have 514 00:40:15.370 --> 00:40:20.610 ah, data provider, you know, putting grading and scoring your accounts. You 515 00:40:20.610 --> 00:40:24.330 don't need that. I've done it without that too. I've done like the gloom 516 00:40:24.330 --> 00:40:28.630 Popsicle sticks strategy bill, where we manually are building out a scoring 517 00:40:28.640 --> 00:40:34.390 methodology. Um, but even your sales team, I mean, I mean I mean, maybe a 518 00:40:34.390 --> 00:40:38.680 lot of people are going to disagree with me on this, but I am don't believe 519 00:40:38.680 --> 00:40:42.740 in, like, so much of our lines, it's like target accounts. You know your 520 00:40:42.740 --> 00:40:48.100 market. Go after them, be personalized. It doesn't mean everybody gets a hand 521 00:40:48.100 --> 00:40:53.570 written note, but level of personalization used data. Those air 522 00:40:53.570 --> 00:40:59.470 the things for me, and you can grow it significantly from there. But you can 523 00:40:59.470 --> 00:41:04.330 still have a level of a B M effort, and you could still see success just by 524 00:41:04.330 --> 00:41:08.390 adding on a few different things. I think the general rule, what I'm seeing 525 00:41:08.390 --> 00:41:12.040 now and I'm still trying to have a different examples of my mind like 526 00:41:12.040 --> 00:41:15.190 buffer is like on the bottom, as far as like, the kind of product they sell. 527 00:41:15.190 --> 00:41:20.720 And it's really inexpensive or like a balsamic is a one time wire framing app. 528 00:41:20.730 --> 00:41:25.000 They sell to businesses, and they only sell it for one time, $80. So that's 529 00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:27.790 really low on, like buffer that you might be able to retain people for a 530 00:41:27.790 --> 00:41:31.360 couple of years and earn more. So those would be like on the low end. And then 531 00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:34.760 you have someone like Infusion Soft, which is a CRM that sells to small 532 00:41:34.760 --> 00:41:39.500 businesses. But generally you're looking at a are of, you know, 5 to 533 00:41:39.500 --> 00:41:43.960 $10,000 and even then I'm like like it doesn't pay for itself at that point. 534 00:41:43.970 --> 00:41:48.300 If you have, they have a sales force, for sure, and at that point, it starts 535 00:41:48.300 --> 00:41:52.190 to become like, maybe, maybe, I think when you start to get to the tens of 536 00:41:52.190 --> 00:41:56.240 thousands and it becomes obvious, you know, hundreds of thousands like Why? 537 00:41:56.240 --> 00:42:00.420 Why are you doing anything else but this? Uh, of course it's fuzzy because 538 00:42:00.430 --> 00:42:04.670 every company is a little bit different. Every company has slightly different 539 00:42:04.670 --> 00:42:08.250 things, like if your lifetime customer value is really long, even if you don't 540 00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:10.950 make it a lot on the front, and then it might still be worth to do it. If if 541 00:42:10.950 --> 00:42:16.740 you're your annual return isn't big, right? So it's gonna differed on 542 00:42:16.740 --> 00:42:19.960 everyone's. There's not a hard line. You're right. But I'm still trying to 543 00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:24.480 get a sense, even for myself. As I coach customers and using podcasting 544 00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.510 for a B M. I'm still trying to get a sense for like, which ones do I push 545 00:42:27.510 --> 00:42:30.350 more towards that way versus just using the podcast for a good content 546 00:42:30.350 --> 00:42:35.090 marketing? Yeah, there's definitely I mean is I feel like it's a rare 547 00:42:35.090 --> 00:42:40.510 occurrence when I say that's not a B M, and I do think that there are plenty of 548 00:42:40.510 --> 00:42:45.100 a B M like a B M leaders out there that might disagree with me who do feel a 549 00:42:45.100 --> 00:42:50.160 little bit more, you know, structural about it. But I think because I've been 550 00:42:50.160 --> 00:42:53.740 tasked with implementing so many different times in so many different 551 00:42:53.740 --> 00:43:00.830 ways that I've just come to believe that you can choose your own adventure, 552 00:43:00.830 --> 00:43:05.980 so to speak. You know, you have so many B to B companies out there trying to 553 00:43:05.980 --> 00:43:12.680 figure out how to do a B. M. And I just don't think that you need Thio look at 554 00:43:12.680 --> 00:43:17.810 a picture and say That's where I have to be. I think that you can get there, 555 00:43:18.600 --> 00:43:22.610 but you need to be okay with starting somewhere. And if you're not set up 556 00:43:22.610 --> 00:43:28.220 structurally, then you have to ask yourself for your business, what makes 557 00:43:28.220 --> 00:43:33.170 sense and are there elements of a B M? That makes sense. So maybe the full 558 00:43:33.170 --> 00:43:38.220 fledged jbm strategy doesn't work for ah smaller you know, smaller business 559 00:43:38.220 --> 00:43:44.100 with, you know, smaller. You know Ahrar. But can you take the data and can you 560 00:43:44.100 --> 00:43:48.020 target your accounts? And if you don't have a sales force, then you know you 561 00:43:48.020 --> 00:43:51.690 can. You do potentially use your marketing automation to personalize 562 00:43:51.690 --> 00:43:56.460 your emails I'm not personally a fan of using marketing automation, but I do 563 00:43:56.460 --> 00:44:00.850 know people, you know. So we have. We have our email team and we leverage 564 00:44:00.850 --> 00:44:05.040 them as a resource you're sending. Emails include avian accounts, but I do 565 00:44:05.040 --> 00:44:08.880 know people that utilize it within their strategy. I just prefer to use 566 00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:13.830 the umbrella approach where let the other team's efforts trickle down. Let 567 00:44:13.830 --> 00:44:19.120 us focus on the big wins. Fantastic. This has been a fun conversation of fun 568 00:44:19.120 --> 00:44:23.340 little back and forth there at the end. Amber Working people learn more from 569 00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:29.230 you and find you online in orderto pick your brain more on a B M. Well, best 570 00:44:29.230 --> 00:44:34.250 place is gonna be linked in my profile on LinkedIn to send me a message. Other 571 00:44:34.250 --> 00:44:39.730 than that, P community is another place that I'm at often. It is a community 572 00:44:39.730 --> 00:44:46.000 for marketers trying to get 1% better every week, and I co lead in a BM group 573 00:44:46.010 --> 00:44:50.350 within it. So that's where lots and lots of avia MERS air huddle, talking 574 00:44:50.350 --> 00:44:55.290 about all things a B M. So either of those two places fantastic and I will 575 00:44:55.290 --> 00:44:58.730 include links in the show notes. The amber is linked in profile as well as 576 00:44:58.730 --> 00:45:02.800 peak community for anybody interested in checking out either of those places. 577 00:45:03.190 --> 00:45:06.900 Amber, thank you again. So much for joining me on the show today. It was my 578 00:45:06.900 --> 00:45:07.910 pleasure. Thank you. 579 00:45:11.390 --> 00:45:14.750 For the longest time, I was asking people to leave a review of B two B 580 00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:18.760 growth in apple podcasts. But I realized that was kind of stupid, 581 00:45:18.770 --> 00:45:24.200 because leaving a review is way harder than just leaving a simple rating. So 582 00:45:24.200 --> 00:45:28.000 I'm changing my tune a bit. Instead of asking you to leave a review, I'm just 583 00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:32.180 gonna ask you to go to BBB growth in apple podcasts. Scroll down until you 584 00:45:32.180 --> 00:45:36.140 see the ratings and reviews section and just tap the number of stars you wanna 585 00:45:36.140 --> 00:45:41.940 give us No review necessary. Super easy. And I promise it will help us out a ton. 586 00:45:41.950 --> 00:45:45.990 If you want a copy of my book content based networking, just shoot me a text 587 00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:49.180 after you leave the rating and I'll send one your way. Text me at 588 00:45:49.190 --> 00:45:53.880 4074903328 Do you