Is Thought Leadership Just a Buzzword? The Debate

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740 Yeah, 2 00:00:04.840 --> 00:00:09.120 welcome back to BTV Growth. I'm dan Sanchez with sweet fish media and today 3 00:00:09.120 --> 00:00:14.260 I'm here with no ulemas who is the director of sales at closed loop and 4 00:00:14.260 --> 00:00:19.010 has a long history and marketing. Noah, welcome to the show. Thanks dan, thanks 5 00:00:19.010 --> 00:00:22.760 for having me appreciate it. Today is gonna be a fun episode as you can 6 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:27.030 probably tell from the title. I already gave this video, we are here to debate 7 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:31.450 thought leadership. I did this with the last deep dive. I did on account based 8 00:00:31.450 --> 00:00:35.300 marketing and it was so much fun, we had to do it again for this deep dive. 9 00:00:35.310 --> 00:00:40.720 So a few weeks ago I posted on linkedin and I said like, hey everybody who's 10 00:00:40.720 --> 00:00:45.510 got a thing against thought leadership, I need you right now, like raise your 11 00:00:45.510 --> 00:00:49.450 hands, like tell me why I thought leadership is anything or why what's 12 00:00:49.450 --> 00:00:53.970 wrong with thought leadership? Like come at me and Noah wrote a long post 13 00:00:53.970 --> 00:00:59.620 and I was like, oh no, was my man, this is gonna be fun because not everybody 14 00:00:59.620 --> 00:01:03.790 agrees with thought leadership being a thing or that it's a buzz word or that 15 00:01:03.790 --> 00:01:08.880 it's overused or that it's it's more of a problem than it is help. Um And it's 16 00:01:08.880 --> 00:01:11.800 that way about a lot of marketing topics but the thought leadership in 17 00:01:11.810 --> 00:01:16.670 particular tends to be a bit divisive. There is it's all over the place as far 18 00:01:16.670 --> 00:01:20.850 as what people think about this term called Thought leadership. So I wanted 19 00:01:20.850 --> 00:01:25.000 to bring Noah on the show today so we could have like a bit of a healthy 20 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:30.210 debate about what thought leadership is, how useful it actually is. Um If it's a 21 00:01:30.210 --> 00:01:35.720 thing at all and what we should actually do about it as marketers so no. 22 00:01:35.720 --> 00:01:39.810 Uh tell me a little bit about what you said on linkedin regarding thought 23 00:01:39.810 --> 00:01:45.030 leadership first, is it a thing if it is a thing, how do you define it? So 24 00:01:45.030 --> 00:01:48.820 for starters I think thought leadership is a thing. Absolutely. There's people 25 00:01:48.820 --> 00:01:53.660 out there that are leading within their category and doing it in a way that is 26 00:01:53.660 --> 00:01:57.330 somewhat revolutionary. So I think that does exist. I think my bone of 27 00:01:57.330 --> 00:02:01.320 contention is that maybe it's overplayed that it's not exactly what 28 00:02:01.320 --> 00:02:05.580 we say it is. So in other words I think too often and marketing good brand 29 00:02:05.580 --> 00:02:08.870 building is confused for thought leadership. And I think that's my real 30 00:02:08.870 --> 00:02:13.350 bone of contention is if if you are a thought leader you shouldn't need to 31 00:02:13.350 --> 00:02:15.750 tell you when you thought leader, other people are saying your thought leader. 32 00:02:15.750 --> 00:02:18.770 And I think too often in our marketplace it comes down to who's 33 00:02:18.770 --> 00:02:21.590 speaking, who's writing, who's getting the audience in the eyes and their 34 00:02:21.590 --> 00:02:25.620 perceived to be the thought leader. So I think in that way I kind of agree 35 00:02:25.620 --> 00:02:30.250 with you. Like thought leaders, they either are, they aren't and if they are 36 00:02:30.250 --> 00:02:33.020 they never need to say that they are. So the general rule of thought 37 00:02:33.020 --> 00:02:35.900 leadership to me is you should never call yourself a thought leader. And the 38 00:02:35.900 --> 00:02:39.540 second rule is you should never call yourself a thought leader, maybe let 39 00:02:39.540 --> 00:02:42.890 somebody else call it to you, but never like claim it or even post what they 40 00:02:42.890 --> 00:02:46.860 said on your profile saying so and so as a thought leader, right, it's just 41 00:02:46.940 --> 00:02:50.850 kind of leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. But what do you see being like, 42 00:02:51.540 --> 00:02:56.600 is it useful at all? Like should we even be using it as a term? Like is it 43 00:02:56.600 --> 00:03:00.360 is it is it a helpful thing for marketers to think about trying to do? 44 00:03:01.040 --> 00:03:05.370 I think it's a dangerous trap because I think it comes from a kind of jokingly 45 00:03:05.370 --> 00:03:10.090 called this Ted talk itis where if you watch enough ted talks, you were 46 00:03:10.100 --> 00:03:14.590 convinced that that person is a genius. And in reality that person leaned on a 47 00:03:14.590 --> 00:03:18.260 team of people, not only for the content, but for the actual speaking 48 00:03:18.260 --> 00:03:22.680 style, for the actual presentation, what you see is the end product is so 49 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:26.160 different than what that person actually thinks or is or is capable of 50 00:03:26.160 --> 00:03:30.170 doing on their own. Uh, and so we elevate kind of people to a pedestal 51 00:03:30.170 --> 00:03:34.470 without necessarily meaning to other people see that. And then they get uh, 52 00:03:34.480 --> 00:03:37.590 speaking or writing engagement and in their mind, their baseline references. 53 00:03:37.590 --> 00:03:41.940 I have to beat that Ted talk I saw. And so in order to do that, they get a 54 00:03:41.940 --> 00:03:46.490 little bit maybe out over their skis. Some of us like to say, right where you 55 00:03:46.490 --> 00:03:49.930 better step up and be something that you aren't. And that's a difficult 56 00:03:49.930 --> 00:03:53.440 thing to be. So what I've noticed is that most people, they're claiming 57 00:03:53.440 --> 00:03:56.460 their own thought leadership are borrowing other people's thought 58 00:03:56.460 --> 00:04:00.490 leadership within their industry. And often in what in my experience, that 59 00:04:00.490 --> 00:04:04.180 person has been someone behind the scenes within their own agency or own 60 00:04:04.180 --> 00:04:08.940 company who is very smart but very quiet. They picked that person's brain 61 00:04:08.950 --> 00:04:12.570 and that becomes their writing or they're speaking basis and they never 62 00:04:12.570 --> 00:04:16.250 source that person and that person doesn't mind or doesn't say anything. 63 00:04:16.250 --> 00:04:19.959 And so I think thought leadership in our industry and in marketing it at 64 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:24.260 large is a thing, but it's a little bit hidden. We don't actually know who the 65 00:04:24.260 --> 00:04:27.300 thought leaders are because they're not the people being publicized, we know 66 00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:30.600 who the publicized people are and I'm not sure there the thought leaders. So 67 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:34.640 the real thought leaders are the quiet ones who aren't being recognized. Would 68 00:04:34.640 --> 00:04:38.320 you say that? It's funny because I would say that if they're quiet behind 69 00:04:38.320 --> 00:04:41.140 the scenes then they're not thought leaders because they're not leading 70 00:04:41.140 --> 00:04:44.760 anybody, somebody else is taking their ideas and leading other people and that 71 00:04:44.760 --> 00:04:48.700 person well they're kind of a faker. They're really masquerading as the 72 00:04:48.700 --> 00:04:52.100 thought leader when really they took it from somebody else. I mean you could 73 00:04:52.100 --> 00:04:55.800 even say that steve jobs was kind of that because he he took the he took the 74 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:59.920 Macintosh from Wozniak, right? But then he developed his own ideas and you know, 75 00:04:59.920 --> 00:05:03.960 he did a lot of other good stuff and I d like philosophies around design and 76 00:05:04.440 --> 00:05:07.890 all kinds of stuff. But I think there's a, you know, there's been a 77 00:05:07.900 --> 00:05:11.540 consolidation within digital marketing, especially over the last 10 years or so, 78 00:05:11.540 --> 00:05:17.290 and lots of mergers and acquisitions as part of that. And so the people that 79 00:05:17.290 --> 00:05:21.010 get bought tend to seem to have a pretty short path to being a thought 80 00:05:21.010 --> 00:05:23.970 leader. And I've always thought that was pretty interesting, right? You're 81 00:05:23.970 --> 00:05:27.250 not a thought leader just because you built an agency or a company that was 82 00:05:27.250 --> 00:05:30.280 bought by somebody. But too often we treat that oh, you must be a thought 83 00:05:30.280 --> 00:05:33.580 leader if they bought you for 10 million, 12 million, whatever it is. 84 00:05:33.590 --> 00:05:38.630 And, you know, my experience has been, that's not the case that there's a big 85 00:05:38.630 --> 00:05:41.540 difference between being able to build an organization and being a thought 86 00:05:41.540 --> 00:05:45.280 leader within the industry that you're in. And so it seems like sometimes the 87 00:05:45.280 --> 00:05:49.810 table stakes are thought leadership because it's a mistaken idea of what 88 00:05:49.810 --> 00:05:53.540 thought leadership is. So that that founder or that Ceo or what have you, 89 00:05:53.540 --> 00:05:56.810 they feel the pressure to be a thought leader. So they present themselves as 90 00:05:56.810 --> 00:05:59.690 one and they don't say they are, but they're out there speaking and writing 91 00:05:59.690 --> 00:06:03.380 as though they are and then other people anoint them and really um you 92 00:06:03.380 --> 00:06:07.790 know, results are at the core of thought leadership. So in my industry, 93 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:12.120 you know, within, within paid advertising, for example, we're thought 94 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:16.630 leaders, but no one's going to talk about that were too busy getting 95 00:06:16.630 --> 00:06:20.120 results for people. And so if you're getting results for people, you're 96 00:06:20.130 --> 00:06:23.160 clearly in a competitive market, if you're getting results, you are a 97 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:26.130 thought leader, but the people are getting the results are busy getting 98 00:06:26.130 --> 00:06:29.530 the results, Someone else has to talk about those results and how that 99 00:06:29.530 --> 00:06:33.260 happened and here's our case studies etcetera. So having been in client 100 00:06:33.260 --> 00:06:37.160 services in my own time and now being removed from client services, what I 101 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:40.880 find is when I want to know something, I go to client services still to this 102 00:06:40.880 --> 00:06:45.690 day. Um And so those are my thought leaders internally. Um You know there's 103 00:06:45.690 --> 00:06:48.630 people within every agency that I've ever been a part of that. I seek out 104 00:06:48.630 --> 00:06:53.020 their opinion and I talked with them and I understand that that's that's the 105 00:06:53.020 --> 00:06:55.570 core of what we're doing and other people might not understand that but it 106 00:06:55.570 --> 00:06:59.860 sure useful to know that. Um But it's the CEO or the front person that's out 107 00:06:59.860 --> 00:07:04.290 there speaking on those same things. And so um you know it's the the hidden 108 00:07:04.290 --> 00:07:09.190 people getting results. It's like baseball. Um You know we watch people 109 00:07:09.190 --> 00:07:13.850 get paid for what they did in the past and in S. E. O. Or PPC. Or what have 110 00:07:13.850 --> 00:07:18.020 you. We see people get recognized for things they did in the past. The gap 111 00:07:18.030 --> 00:07:21.710 between when they accomplished and now that they're talking about, it has been 112 00:07:21.710 --> 00:07:25.130 filled within activity and they're not they're no longer the expert that they 113 00:07:25.130 --> 00:07:28.800 were. But we need them to tell us how they did it back then. In the meantime 114 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:31.140 there's a whole class of people that are working to be the thought leaders 115 00:07:31.140 --> 00:07:34.680 and getting results now and we won't hear from them for another five years. 116 00:07:34.690 --> 00:07:38.610 So I would say the thought leaders right now are some of the speakers and 117 00:07:38.610 --> 00:07:41.330 writers of tomorrow but by the time they're writing and speaking they're no 118 00:07:41.330 --> 00:07:44.670 longer the thought leaders. So I guess that's really what I'm saying is when 119 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:47.950 are they a thought leader in the time they recognize or we recognize or 120 00:07:47.950 --> 00:07:51.740 someone else recognizes and what actually makes them that thought leader. 121 00:07:51.740 --> 00:07:55.190 And do we actually really know in a case like William Shakespeare, was he a 122 00:07:55.190 --> 00:07:59.020 thought leader in his time? We can now say that he was at the time he was an 123 00:07:59.020 --> 00:08:02.720 also ran of a writer. Now he's maybe the greatest british writer of history 124 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:06.920 considered widely. So was that thought leadership at the time? They would say 125 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:11.660 no. Now we say yes, I don't know. Now we're in the present, What do we say? 126 00:08:12.140 --> 00:08:16.790 Well let's let's take some examples of some people that are currently out 127 00:08:16.790 --> 00:08:21.790 there and speaking a lot, um some having a marketing background you'll 128 00:08:21.790 --> 00:08:25.940 probably really familiar with and some hopefully you're familiar with, let's 129 00:08:25.940 --> 00:08:32.280 say rand Fishkin, still a thought leader on the ceo. Um he is an amazing 130 00:08:32.280 --> 00:08:36.299 brand builder, brand, is an amazing brand builder and he has impressive 131 00:08:36.299 --> 00:08:41.700 hair and always good facial hair for checking in on and remarkable brand 132 00:08:41.700 --> 00:08:45.680 builder and business person and I think he's done a remarkable job of 133 00:08:45.680 --> 00:08:49.160 shepherding technology into a space that's needed it. But he wasn't the 134 00:08:49.160 --> 00:08:54.510 technology builder. Um you know he's a great brand so no I wouldn't say as 135 00:08:54.510 --> 00:08:57.860 much as I respect and like brand I don't view him as a thought leader. 136 00:08:58.340 --> 00:09:02.990 It's interesting because I would say like he was once the one doing the S. E. 137 00:09:02.990 --> 00:09:06.710 O. And has done a lot of original research himself now. I don't know how 138 00:09:06.710 --> 00:09:10.610 much original research he's doing now but I'd say because he had such a depth 139 00:09:10.610 --> 00:09:15.500 and because he stays up to date as in like when google like let all their 140 00:09:15.510 --> 00:09:19.070 emails go like he went and read a lot of them right. Like I didn't read them 141 00:09:19.070 --> 00:09:23.070 all but I was reading ran fish skins assessment of them. But because he had 142 00:09:23.070 --> 00:09:27.350 such a depth before, it's kind of like once you're such an expert in a thing, 143 00:09:27.740 --> 00:09:30.760 like, the ability to maintain the expertise doesn't become quite as 144 00:09:30.760 --> 00:09:33.970 dramatic. So I feel like some of that lingers now, of course, he went on to 145 00:09:33.970 --> 00:09:37.320 do more things and now he's probably actually, like getting to guess, speak 146 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:42.590 on podcast seems to be his real trick, right? Part of that. He has authorities. 147 00:09:42.590 --> 00:09:47.150 So, people he's come and spoke on this podcast, like, I think, twice now, I 148 00:09:47.160 --> 00:09:50.030 think he's actually it's a great example to bring up in a way, because 149 00:09:50.030 --> 00:09:55.440 he is he's been so good for the SEO industry at large, right? I mean, so 150 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:59.590 much of what he's done to build his own brand, ended up building ceo as an 151 00:09:59.590 --> 00:10:04.760 industry, So I would certainly not want to trash that because it's remarkably 152 00:10:04.760 --> 00:10:07.850 valuable to everybody in the industry. And we all owe him thanks to a certain 153 00:10:07.850 --> 00:10:10.860 extent. But, you know, there's a certain amount of, and I don't say this 154 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:13.890 disrespectful, there's a certain amount of showmanship to brand that is 155 00:10:13.890 --> 00:10:18.100 important to building his brand. And so there's nothing wrong with being a 156 00:10:18.100 --> 00:10:21.840 great brand builder. I envy the hell out of that, but it's a fine line 157 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:24.710 between brand building and thought leadership, and I would say that there 158 00:10:24.710 --> 00:10:28.700 are a team of people and a few of them I know personally that rand would would 159 00:10:28.710 --> 00:10:32.760 rely on for the actual nitty gritty thought leadership behind the scenes. 160 00:10:33.140 --> 00:10:36.100 It's true, it's true, man, That's an interesting morning. That was the 161 00:10:36.100 --> 00:10:39.110 closest one I could think of to like someone who like rides that line, who 162 00:10:39.110 --> 00:10:42.870 was an expert, not quite a, not quite the one in the trenches as much as he 163 00:10:42.870 --> 00:10:46.720 used to be, and probably for a while now. Um let's talk about another one, 164 00:10:46.730 --> 00:10:50.030 let's talk about one that I would say is a thought leader and that's Gary 165 00:10:50.030 --> 00:10:55.250 Vaynerchuk. What would you say about Gary? There's always room for a 166 00:10:55.250 --> 00:10:58.320 contrarian voice. I'm out here on this podcast because I make a good 167 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:02.620 contrarian voice and I think Gary has captured that spirit better than 168 00:11:02.630 --> 00:11:07.500 anybody and he's combined it with being incredibly smart. So there's he's a 169 00:11:07.500 --> 00:11:13.100 smart contrarian who has built a great brand and I don't know enough about 170 00:11:13.100 --> 00:11:17.290 Gerry's actual technical chops or his history to know what kind of thought 171 00:11:17.290 --> 00:11:21.490 leader is, but is he a thought leader just by, he's a thought leader within 172 00:11:21.490 --> 00:11:25.020 brand building, I would argue, and I think that would be undeniable, I don't 173 00:11:25.020 --> 00:11:28.840 know, I don't know him as anything else anymore, really. Right, So in my mind, 174 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:33.040 he's a great brand builder and different than in Brandon that he's 175 00:11:33.040 --> 00:11:36.180 done it quite a bit differently. So he might be a thought leader in brand 176 00:11:36.180 --> 00:11:41.270 building, he positions himself as a business builder. So that's kind of 177 00:11:41.270 --> 00:11:44.020 like his thing, of course he's taking multiple positions throughout time. It 178 00:11:44.020 --> 00:11:47.570 used to be the one guy, used to be the social media guy, but now he's kind of 179 00:11:47.570 --> 00:11:51.230 launched multiple businesses and I think that's where he's like but he's 180 00:11:51.230 --> 00:11:55.740 also still all the other things like the social media guy. Yeah, he's a 181 00:11:55.740 --> 00:11:59.710 genuinely pure marketer in the sense that he always can get eyeballs and 182 00:11:59.710 --> 00:12:03.140 attention and that's the name of the game and marketing. So often I can 183 00:12:03.140 --> 00:12:08.770 think of someone like Jay Bear who is now on that kind of obvious like that 184 00:12:08.770 --> 00:12:13.220 track. We see a lot with thought leaders who they write books and they 185 00:12:13.220 --> 00:12:17.500 speak on stages and that's kind of it. That's kind of all they do and they 186 00:12:17.500 --> 00:12:21.040 consult, right? And they have a company where it probably does a lot of extra 187 00:12:21.040 --> 00:12:24.800 things and has other monetization channels, but there's a number of 188 00:12:24.800 --> 00:12:29.110 individuals who do nothing but write books and speak right. JBl would be one 189 00:12:29.110 --> 00:12:32.850 of those, I could think of like a dozen more that are on that kind of trek. And 190 00:12:32.850 --> 00:12:37.190 you're from what your perspective you're saying, those guys like not so 191 00:12:37.190 --> 00:12:42.080 much a thought leader, better brand builders. Yes. And I don't want, you 192 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:47.080 know, I don't want to underplay or underestimate the difficulty or respect 193 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:51.130 I have for speaking on stage and being compelling about it. That's not easy. I 194 00:12:51.130 --> 00:12:55.530 mean, you know, grabbing, put the speech together that then results in a 195 00:12:55.530 --> 00:12:59.770 large line afterwards, people to speak to you that's not simple. Uh and so 196 00:12:59.770 --> 00:13:03.320 you've got to recognize that they're doing that. So there is some element of 197 00:13:03.330 --> 00:13:06.740 incredible talent just to be able to do that. But yeah, I think it's it's 198 00:13:06.750 --> 00:13:09.850 better brand building than it is a thought leadership. I would say 199 00:13:09.850 --> 00:13:14.070 actually I'll throw a name out there which would be well Reynolds. Uh and in 200 00:13:14.070 --> 00:13:20.600 my mind will is a great brand builder. I love the fact that he built his 201 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:26.060 business from the ground up and learned along the way. And when he speaks about 202 00:13:26.060 --> 00:13:29.560 building the business, you know that he's business building leader because 203 00:13:29.560 --> 00:13:33.190 he did that he turned away the big money. I mean he's made that part of 204 00:13:33.190 --> 00:13:37.870 his brand. Um I think there's a combination of boots on the ground work 205 00:13:37.870 --> 00:13:43.100 that he did by himself for his agency that he got results in his day. And 206 00:13:43.100 --> 00:13:46.020 then he went on to build a business that almost ran away from him and he 207 00:13:46.020 --> 00:13:51.240 had to kind of control and tether that. And I would say the combination there 208 00:13:51.250 --> 00:13:55.380 put him in the closest though he was probably more widely known for speaking 209 00:13:55.380 --> 00:13:59.810 and writing, I think the combination of everything he was doing within the 210 00:13:59.810 --> 00:14:02.850 digital industry was probably the closest to thought leadership that I've 211 00:14:02.850 --> 00:14:06.120 seen now. He's moving on to a little bit of different role, which I think is 212 00:14:06.130 --> 00:14:10.430 more about kind of innovation and disrupting within the industry through 213 00:14:10.430 --> 00:14:13.650 his brand, which I think is a great thing to. So I think that's an example 214 00:14:13.650 --> 00:14:19.250 of someone who was overwhelmingly present on stages and and writing 215 00:14:19.250 --> 00:14:22.120 engagements. But I think there's there's a lot there. I would call him a 216 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:25.780 thought leader um and I haven't checked with with his work currently anything, 217 00:14:25.780 --> 00:14:29.130 I'm not not the ultimate judge on that certainly. But I think there there can 218 00:14:29.140 --> 00:14:32.480 be both, you can be a brand builder and a thought leader and that's probably 219 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.200 the closest off the cuff example. I can think that would be well now let's 220 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:41.710 let's pick on somebody who's one not alive and I think is arguably debated, 221 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:47.150 well not arguably absolutely debated as far as thought leadership goes and 222 00:14:47.150 --> 00:14:51.980 that's napoleon hill, right? Think think and grow rich. Like if you look 223 00:14:51.980 --> 00:14:55.890 at his history like he like has a lot of interesting ideas whether their 224 00:14:55.890 --> 00:14:59.300 original you're like but then he essentially became famous for being 225 00:14:59.300 --> 00:15:03.050 famous like his book, hit a nerve and he spoke on stages and wrote more books. 226 00:15:03.940 --> 00:15:07.780 Right? Would you say that was that's like a classic example of someone being 227 00:15:07.780 --> 00:15:12.490 a thought leader before the term was coined. Who who clearly isn't a thought 228 00:15:12.490 --> 00:15:12.860 leader? 229 00:15:14.140 --> 00:15:18.030 Yeah, maybe. I mean, I think of the more kind of quintessential example to 230 00:15:18.030 --> 00:15:21.710 me would be Jack Welch, You know, I mentioned ted talk itis and I think 231 00:15:21.710 --> 00:15:25.570 it's closely related to Jack Welch Itis, which is, you know, you mythologize a 232 00:15:25.570 --> 00:15:28.770 person for long enough and before, you know it there, that chuck Norris of 233 00:15:28.770 --> 00:15:31.930 business, right? And I think that happened with Jack Welch, and so only 234 00:15:31.930 --> 00:15:34.800 time proved that actually there was a lot of people behind him and he was a 235 00:15:34.800 --> 00:15:38.470 flawed human like everybody else, and maybe he wasn't a thought leader, maybe 236 00:15:38.470 --> 00:15:41.920 he was just a good brand builder and businessmen. And so I think that that's 237 00:15:41.920 --> 00:15:45.230 the case case for a lot of folks. Unfortunately, think time, ultimately 238 00:15:45.230 --> 00:15:48.720 this is the complication for me, is that ultimately time proves whether 239 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:51.800 your thought leadership more than your thought leader more than anything else, 240 00:15:51.800 --> 00:15:55.640 right? I mean, in 10 years, you know, the proof is in the pudding as they say, 241 00:15:55.640 --> 00:15:58.980 and in 10 years we'll all know who the thought leaders were. I think it's it's 242 00:15:58.990 --> 00:16:03.300 most difficult to predict who they are right now or to claim authoritatively 243 00:16:03.300 --> 00:16:07.250 who they are right now. Uh you know, we'll know in 10 years, but in 10 years 244 00:16:07.250 --> 00:16:09.800 they will have been today's thought leaders, not 10 years from now thought 245 00:16:09.800 --> 00:16:13.520 leaders. So I think it's kind of the same continuum. There's definitely a 246 00:16:13.520 --> 00:16:19.030 muddying of like what a thought leader is and it's I think massively like the 247 00:16:19.030 --> 00:16:22.990 coin was turned, but at the same time, I think the Ted organization has been 248 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:26.690 partly responsible for the acceleration of thought leaders being so influential 249 00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:31.240 because the ted talk is almost like, I don't know what it is, that's like yeah, 250 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:36.000 the quintessential piece of thought leadership is the Ted talk and probably 251 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:39.170 the book, but Ted talks even more so because that's all that you get in Ted 252 00:16:39.170 --> 00:16:43.050 talks books have lots of different things coming out. But then Ted talks 253 00:16:43.050 --> 00:16:47.760 are a great example in terms of if you stretch that brand as far as they have 254 00:16:47.770 --> 00:16:52.580 to, you know, here's my local Ted talks series. I mean at a certain point 255 00:16:52.580 --> 00:16:55.700 there's probably not much more to bring out of the sponge, especially when 256 00:16:55.700 --> 00:16:58.420 you're talking about something being revolutionary, thought leading, you 257 00:16:58.420 --> 00:17:03.080 know, so I think basically you do your brand, the more, the more Ted talks you 258 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:06.040 have locally and regionally and everybody is a thought leader and 259 00:17:06.040 --> 00:17:08.770 everybody's an expert. They may have contributed to this to a certain extent. 260 00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:15.349 No, so on On one end I agree with you that thought like the definition of 261 00:17:15.349 --> 00:17:18.359 thought leadership should be pretty tight and I kind of defined it around 262 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:22.359 three major things like you actually, you absolutely have to be an expert, 263 00:17:23.040 --> 00:17:27.220 which means you have to have a base of not just knowledge and expertise but 264 00:17:27.220 --> 00:17:30.600 actual experience, like you've gotten your hands dirty so that you actually 265 00:17:30.600 --> 00:17:34.750 understand it inside and out. Like a particular subject matter, it's usually 266 00:17:34.750 --> 00:17:38.020 a niche, right kind of like a PhD. You know, you start broad with your 267 00:17:38.020 --> 00:17:41.780 bachelor is a little bit more narrow with your your master's and a PhD has a 268 00:17:41.780 --> 00:17:45.260 very, very tiny focus and I would think a thought leader kind of needs that 269 00:17:45.260 --> 00:17:51.870 level of expertise. You also have to have unique ideas. So it's not just 270 00:17:51.870 --> 00:17:55.170 enough to be an expert, you have to be contributing and pushing that 271 00:17:55.170 --> 00:18:00.270 particular niche topic forward in some new way. Now of course we all stand on 272 00:18:00.270 --> 00:18:04.120 the shoulders of giants, nothing new under the sun. But there are unique 273 00:18:04.120 --> 00:18:06.830 twist. There are unique angles, There are ideas that come from other 274 00:18:06.830 --> 00:18:09.890 industries that are new in this industry. So I think there's a lot of 275 00:18:09.890 --> 00:18:13.270 different ways to advance a field, especially if you're trying to help 276 00:18:13.270 --> 00:18:17.230 something that's a a widespread problem in that particular topic that nobody 277 00:18:17.230 --> 00:18:21.430 really has a real clear solution to yet. Right. And you can have an idea that 278 00:18:21.430 --> 00:18:24.910 pushes that forward. So unique and useful ideas. The third thing I would 279 00:18:24.910 --> 00:18:29.510 say makes a unique thought leader is authority because even if you're like, 280 00:18:29.510 --> 00:18:32.420 there's a lot of phds out there who just published ideas, but no one's 281 00:18:32.420 --> 00:18:36.880 really listening now when they could have amazing ideas. But if they're not 282 00:18:36.890 --> 00:18:40.600 actually leaving anybody, then you have great thoughts. You're just not a 283 00:18:40.600 --> 00:18:45.430 thought we here. So if you have those three things, would you say your it's 284 00:18:45.430 --> 00:18:49.270 pretty authentic and time will prove out that you you were indeed a thought 285 00:18:49.270 --> 00:18:53.910 leader. Yeah, I think time will prove it out if you were and if not you'll be 286 00:18:53.910 --> 00:18:57.310 kind of forgotten and and rather quickly. And I think that that's the 287 00:18:57.310 --> 00:19:01.620 case. I think it's almost unfair right? The pressure that people have when they 288 00:19:01.630 --> 00:19:06.370 write or speak these days within you know, marketing industry at large 289 00:19:06.370 --> 00:19:09.250 because the people that have come before them, you mentioned standing on 290 00:19:09.250 --> 00:19:11.950 the shoulders of giants. Well if I want to say something new and marketing I 291 00:19:11.950 --> 00:19:15.570 gotta beat david ogilvy. I mean how am I to do that? I have to come up with 292 00:19:15.570 --> 00:19:20.210 something revolutionary the spot and the more the more I focus on coming up 293 00:19:20.210 --> 00:19:23.370 with something revolutionary, the more difficult that is. And as you said, 294 00:19:23.380 --> 00:19:26.870 authority comes from getting your hands dirty and actually getting those 295 00:19:26.870 --> 00:19:30.310 results. And so that's the most important, the most important aspect is 296 00:19:30.310 --> 00:19:34.110 actually doing it and having having that track record and even ogilvy would 297 00:19:34.110 --> 00:19:37.780 be able to point back to other influences he's had right. Um she was 298 00:19:37.780 --> 00:19:41.100 very influenced by Lester wonder Man, who was very influenced by Claude 299 00:19:41.100 --> 00:19:45.480 Hopkins and you can track martyr marketing all the way back to josiah 300 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:49.270 Wedgwood who was really influenced by all his peers in like the late 17 301 00:19:49.270 --> 00:19:51.230 hundreds. You know, he's like one of the people who kicked off the 302 00:19:51.230 --> 00:19:54.800 Industrial revolution and I'm glad you mentioned that we don't do enough of 303 00:19:54.800 --> 00:19:57.290 that and you mentioned is standing on the shoulders of giants and that's 304 00:19:57.290 --> 00:20:01.340 absolutely we pretend like we are the giants too often And that's my biggest, 305 00:20:01.350 --> 00:20:04.320 that's my biggest thing with thought leadership is that's us pretending to 306 00:20:04.320 --> 00:20:07.360 be the giants instead of looking back. And a lot of the stuff that I've seen 307 00:20:07.360 --> 00:20:11.450 in the last 10 years on stage is is basically paraphrasing without even 308 00:20:11.450 --> 00:20:14.490 necessarily meaning to things that have other things. And that's definitely not 309 00:20:14.500 --> 00:20:17.450 leadership, right? If you have to do to do do it is to see someone else has 310 00:20:17.450 --> 00:20:21.000 already thought that through um you know, but I've been part of even 311 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:26.930 agencies who have conference series where we put people on stage and a lot 312 00:20:26.930 --> 00:20:30.700 of times those people are, they want to speak, they want to, right, they want 313 00:20:30.700 --> 00:20:33.970 to be a thought leader, it's actually their goal and misdirected as it might 314 00:20:33.970 --> 00:20:37.260 be according to meet people like me, they want to have that thought 315 00:20:37.260 --> 00:20:41.520 leadership before they actually really have those results. So you've got some 316 00:20:41.520 --> 00:20:45.750 young rather inexperienced marketers hungry for the stage and, you know, 317 00:20:45.750 --> 00:20:49.890 looking on people that are above them to let them have that stage, and I've 318 00:20:49.890 --> 00:20:54.750 watched those people get the stage what they knew and what they were about 319 00:20:54.750 --> 00:20:58.860 going into that speech and preparing it for a few months, and what the speech 320 00:20:58.860 --> 00:21:01.800 that that was a different person, talking about different things, and 321 00:21:01.800 --> 00:21:05.270 that's not them, and that's not their company, and but it was a great speech 322 00:21:05.340 --> 00:21:09.240 And I see that so often that that probably has made me a little cynical 323 00:21:09.250 --> 00:21:12.910 in terms of what thought leadership, is, because I know that if we can give the 324 00:21:12.910 --> 00:21:18.900 stage to a 26 year old person with very little experience, and in fact, there 325 00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:22.430 were getting the stage because of that, almost to a certain extent, they really 326 00:21:22.430 --> 00:21:26.820 better hit a grand slam, and too often they don't um and so I think we don't 327 00:21:26.820 --> 00:21:31.100 help ourselves by putting people on the stage that aren't ready for it uh and 328 00:21:31.100 --> 00:21:34.710 banging the drum that they actually are ready for it. And so we we should 329 00:21:34.710 --> 00:21:37.380 ourselves in the foot when we do that, and that's the kind of thought 330 00:21:37.380 --> 00:21:40.740 leadership stuff that I'm talking about is if everyone thought leader, then no 331 00:21:40.740 --> 00:21:43.980 one's a thought leader, and that's, we too often want to, just if they're on 332 00:21:43.980 --> 00:21:48.570 the stage, they must be used to gate keep the lines for a lot of the 333 00:21:48.570 --> 00:21:52.500 speakers back in the early days of S. E. O. When some of the conferences would 334 00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:55.750 get big, and you get kind of this rock star guru mentality when they were done 335 00:21:55.750 --> 00:21:59.580 speaking, you have spillover lines and you know, maybe this is early thought 336 00:21:59.580 --> 00:22:02.070 leadership and legion, but I was working those lines and talking to 337 00:22:02.070 --> 00:22:05.550 those people, because the reality is many of those people weren't, You know, 338 00:22:05.550 --> 00:22:09.010 going to be talked to by the person that they were in line for. Uh and it's 339 00:22:09.010 --> 00:22:12.460 not lost on me that so many of those people that I talked to 10 years ago 340 00:22:12.460 --> 00:22:17.270 are the thought leaders of today. So the people that were intent on that 341 00:22:17.280 --> 00:22:20.850 track, they were going to line up and ask that person how they did. That they 342 00:22:20.850 --> 00:22:24.130 were more intent on getting to that stage, like their hero than they were 343 00:22:24.130 --> 00:22:27.510 on getting the results in the weeds on a daily basis that they were actually 344 00:22:27.510 --> 00:22:31.440 the authority, you know, that you referenced. So it's funny we agreed 345 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:35.900 then I think really in a lot of ways, but when it comes down to is what is 346 00:22:35.900 --> 00:22:38.250 thought leadership, I guess is the first question. The second question is 347 00:22:38.250 --> 00:22:41.410 why are we so eager to pretend that some of this is not leadership when 348 00:22:41.410 --> 00:22:44.850 it's clearly not. I think the reason why most people want to become thought 349 00:22:44.850 --> 00:22:48.060 leaders is because it's just highly profitable in so many different ways 350 00:22:48.940 --> 00:22:52.400 because influences profitable and thought leadership is one path 351 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.270 influence. It's not the only path. I mean sports stars usually aren't 352 00:22:55.270 --> 00:22:58.590 thought leaders even though their influencers But thought leadership, 353 00:22:58.590 --> 00:23:01.840 especially in a B2B context, especially in a business context. Thought 354 00:23:01.840 --> 00:23:06.090 leadership is the influencer usually. And I think that's the reason why 355 00:23:06.090 --> 00:23:08.660 people are hurrying to get there because they wanted or have 356 00:23:08.660 --> 00:23:11.550 insecurities they want to fill by getting people to applaud for them or 357 00:23:11.550 --> 00:23:16.490 different things. I do disagree that it's wrong to want to be a thought 358 00:23:16.490 --> 00:23:21.330 leader. I actually think provided you have the right intent, being a thought 359 00:23:21.330 --> 00:23:26.070 leader is a noble aspiration because I think if you have the right intent and 360 00:23:26.070 --> 00:23:32.080 the right intent is to be humble and to serve and to be helpful and there's a 361 00:23:32.080 --> 00:23:35.160 lot of problems and a lot of niche industries that have not been figured 362 00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:38.880 out yet. Major problems that we're still wrestling with. For example, I'll 363 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:42.740 give you one that is still being worked on today and I literally just got off a 364 00:23:42.740 --> 00:23:45.390 call where a bunch of us were talking about it because it's a problem for 365 00:23:45.390 --> 00:23:50.450 everybody is having that feeling of connection in a remote environment. 366 00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:54.020 It's not easy. It's really difficult and a lot of managers are still 367 00:23:54.020 --> 00:23:58.010 struggling like, oh, how do you manage out out in a remote environment? 368 00:23:58.020 --> 00:24:01.930 There's still a lot of room for people to come and explore and push forward 369 00:24:01.930 --> 00:24:05.810 what culture and what connection and what management can look like in this 370 00:24:05.810 --> 00:24:08.940 remote environment, which is more widespread than it's ever been before. 371 00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:11.590 And it's a unique, unique thing and we'll probably have thought leaders pop 372 00:24:11.590 --> 00:24:15.570 up and I hope somebody does. I hope somebody who maybe has a background 373 00:24:15.570 --> 00:24:19.110 traditional management, culture building and connection can start 374 00:24:19.110 --> 00:24:23.800 exploring some new things, but in a way that doesn't presume that I'm the giant 375 00:24:23.800 --> 00:24:28.600 that is in a way that seeks to serve and help lead forward in new ways so 376 00:24:28.600 --> 00:24:32.110 that people like me and like all the people I talked to this morning can 377 00:24:32.110 --> 00:24:35.950 benefit from their ideas and we can lead and try and test it out ourselves. 378 00:24:36.040 --> 00:24:38.940 But if you do it in a humble way, you never call yourself a thought leader, 379 00:24:38.950 --> 00:24:41.940 but you in your head, you're like, I want to lead people in this thing 380 00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:45.000 because it's a problem for me, and it's a lot of problem for other people, and 381 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.250 I want to try to find a solution for that and then champion those ideas. I 382 00:24:49.250 --> 00:24:53.420 think that's a good and noble thing and a part of that is building the 383 00:24:53.420 --> 00:24:56.770 authority and the brand around it, because if you come up with a noble 384 00:24:56.770 --> 00:24:59.480 idea, but don't do all the work to actually get it out there, make it 385 00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:02.780 memorable and make it interesting, which comes down to personality and 386 00:25:02.780 --> 00:25:06.140 showmanship and a lot of other things so that people can actually, you 387 00:25:06.140 --> 00:25:10.160 actually get it out there, which I think is part of the work. No, I really 388 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:13.580 actually striving to be a thought leader, I think is what we all should 389 00:25:13.580 --> 00:25:17.010 do, right? And then, as we mentioned, someone else will tell you when you've 390 00:25:17.010 --> 00:25:21.680 arrived. But I think the thing that I don't have patience for is that's great 391 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:24.380 that you want to be a thought leader, but you're not even close to the ready 392 00:25:24.380 --> 00:25:30.970 for the stage yet. Um and so don't ask go keep finishing. And I think that's 393 00:25:30.970 --> 00:25:35.170 the key thing is if you're a thought leader and you want to be a thought 394 00:25:35.170 --> 00:25:39.210 leader, just keep working and getting your results. And for example, you use 395 00:25:39.220 --> 00:25:43.730 you use kind of remote workforce as an example of where potential thought 396 00:25:43.730 --> 00:25:48.090 leadership. I agree. However, I would suggest that pre Covid there were a 397 00:25:48.090 --> 00:25:51.920 good number of agencies and and players within the industry who are already 398 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:55.890 completely decentralized not to to our warm, but that would be closed loop. 399 00:25:55.900 --> 00:26:01.170 And so how do we capture the spirit of why those people did that and how they 400 00:26:01.170 --> 00:26:05.270 were succeeding at it before? Covid it because everyone else Hussein post 401 00:26:05.270 --> 00:26:08.730 Covid, we need to do this. You kind of by definition can't be a thought leader 402 00:26:08.740 --> 00:26:13.300 leader in that area because you already were shooting that proactively before 403 00:26:13.300 --> 00:26:17.160 Covid. And so the folks that opened up and said, hey, we recognize that some 404 00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:20.200 of our talent is and other places and we need to completely decentralized 405 00:26:20.200 --> 00:26:24.200 this, that closed loop. We have offices in Roosevelt, but I think we have three 406 00:26:24.200 --> 00:26:28.100 people in our offices which are fairly large because we've given that people, 407 00:26:28.100 --> 00:26:32.590 people pre covid the ability to work from where they are. And so again, 408 00:26:32.600 --> 00:26:36.610 there is a great example of I don't think our ceo Lance Loveday or our 409 00:26:36.610 --> 00:26:41.200 president, Amanda Evans are talking about how they did that somebody down 410 00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:43.960 the road will probably go to these agencies and say, how did you do that? 411 00:26:43.970 --> 00:26:46.470 At which point will recognize that they were thought leaders. But again, that 412 00:26:46.470 --> 00:26:51.230 takes time and results. So I think we largely agree we'll just have slightly 413 00:26:51.230 --> 00:26:54.610 different approach and it might take time to build up true thought 414 00:26:54.610 --> 00:26:57.420 leadership where they have a following around ideas. But like those people 415 00:26:57.420 --> 00:27:01.280 could start emerging now. They could start having unique. It is I wonder if 416 00:27:01.280 --> 00:27:05.040 we tried this. Oh, that kind of worked. Let's try. Oh, it worked here. All. My 417 00:27:05.040 --> 00:27:08.160 friend just asked me about it. Let's try it over there. And then because 418 00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.780 they're starting to see success, it's okay to start talking about it early 419 00:27:11.790 --> 00:27:14.810 again, if you never call your thought leaders, call yourself a thought leader, 420 00:27:14.810 --> 00:27:19.030 then it becomes a non issue, but you're starting to share ideas openly. Being 421 00:27:19.030 --> 00:27:23.030 like I had a problem, I wanted to find a solution. This is what works for me. 422 00:27:23.030 --> 00:27:26.960 It's worked over here and over here. I'm just sharing it on social media and 423 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:29.370 then maybe if you do that enough and it starts to work for other people, 424 00:27:29.370 --> 00:27:33.270 naturally, someone is going to get you to speak on stage eventually because 425 00:27:33.280 --> 00:27:37.370 it's a problem for a lot of people and I think that's okay. Um and I still 426 00:27:37.370 --> 00:27:41.010 think even within the remote context, I know like base camp and Wordpress 427 00:27:41.010 --> 00:27:44.530 specifically are fairly large companies that have been doing remote for a long 428 00:27:44.530 --> 00:27:49.050 time for like since the beginnings I've read their books, they have great ideas 429 00:27:49.050 --> 00:27:54.390 on it. They're still limited resources on what doing good remote works looks 430 00:27:54.390 --> 00:27:57.540 like, especially for a lot of different types of companies. They're both tech 431 00:27:57.540 --> 00:28:01.400 companies and they tend to hire like at the top of the pay scale, so they're 432 00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:03.840 very selective in who they pick and they pick people that they know we're 433 00:28:03.840 --> 00:28:07.060 going to thrive in a work environment. What about those who don't thrive in a 434 00:28:07.140 --> 00:28:10.270 remote environment? Like there's, I think there's lots of room for ideas 435 00:28:10.270 --> 00:28:14.840 here that haven't been flushed out and nature, it might be like, what do you 436 00:28:14.840 --> 00:28:19.680 do for work force for hospital tech employees? You know, Which I have a 437 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:23.920 friend who lives near me who is in that case, right. I think there's lots of 438 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:28.970 room there for new ideas. I agree and I think niches will emerge and this, this 439 00:28:28.970 --> 00:28:32.520 should be one and I think this is, this is going to be key and I would be 440 00:28:32.530 --> 00:28:38.420 disappointed in the coming years if, you know, stages aren't slotted with at 441 00:28:38.420 --> 00:28:43.180 least a few people talking exactly about that. But I do agree with you 442 00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:46.380 that there are a lot of young people just clamoring for the stage who don't 443 00:28:46.380 --> 00:28:50.020 know what they're talking about yet, and that's that's a bummer, that's a 444 00:28:50.020 --> 00:28:53.520 bummer that they went and we're kind of premature and like thinking they had 445 00:28:53.520 --> 00:28:57.170 arrived and all the older people are like, that's been around for decades. 446 00:28:57.340 --> 00:29:03.810 Yeah, I think that because, you know, I don't by any stretch want to sound like 447 00:29:03.810 --> 00:29:06.460 an ageist in this, because some of the smartest people that I've met in the 448 00:29:06.460 --> 00:29:11.700 industry are the wet behind the ears and the potential from those people is 449 00:29:11.700 --> 00:29:15.690 amazing. And I wouldn't ever want to discourage them. And I think that there 450 00:29:15.700 --> 00:29:19.310 there are great minds in the industry who just need to apply their mind to 451 00:29:19.310 --> 00:29:22.830 the industry until they're ready and then they'll speak. But I think the 452 00:29:22.830 --> 00:29:27.350 mistake gets made in wanting to be, maybe, I guess it's the theme internet 453 00:29:27.350 --> 00:29:30.560 famous as soon as possible, right? And in our industry, if you get the stage, 454 00:29:30.560 --> 00:29:34.190 you're going to be internet famous, uh you know, and so I don't know, maybe 455 00:29:34.190 --> 00:29:37.700 your thought leader down, I mean you've got you've gotten some internet fame at 456 00:29:37.700 --> 00:29:40.220 least be linked in. And I love your work, by the way, what you've done, 457 00:29:40.230 --> 00:29:43.700 you've done it somewhat uniquely, you've built a brand and presents and I 458 00:29:43.700 --> 00:29:46.440 don't think you've ever done that by calling yourself a thought leader, but 459 00:29:46.450 --> 00:29:50.830 you know, certainly uh you moved your way into my feet on linkedin and others 460 00:29:50.840 --> 00:29:56.310 uh pretty quickly and and pretty deeply. So that's impressive. And, you know, 461 00:29:56.320 --> 00:30:00.300 it's in many ways everyone's asking, when should I get a podcast? How do I 462 00:30:00.300 --> 00:30:03.410 get a podcast? What do I do about a podcast? Well, you've been doing this 463 00:30:03.410 --> 00:30:07.180 for a while and getting results and so I don't know, I'm not opposed to the 464 00:30:07.180 --> 00:30:10.640 idea that the thought leaders are, and it's not my job to anoint you one. Uh 465 00:30:10.650 --> 00:30:13.890 you know, but that's what I see is there are thought leaders out there. I 466 00:30:13.890 --> 00:30:17.080 just don't think they're the ones we say they are, um, you know, and 467 00:30:17.090 --> 00:30:20.270 actually returning real quickly to the well Reynolds idea, I want, I want to 468 00:30:20.280 --> 00:30:25.670 kind of flesh that out a little bit more because the merger and acquisition 469 00:30:25.670 --> 00:30:30.490 thing within the industries are huge, right? And so we're not selling when, 470 00:30:30.500 --> 00:30:36.170 you know, he was right there, ready to sell is an interesting note because we 471 00:30:36.170 --> 00:30:40.510 tend to love the people that were acquired and we celebrate them and put 472 00:30:40.510 --> 00:30:43.880 them on a pedestal when in reality, the very reason they were acquired was 473 00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:47.290 because some acquiring company determined that they were inefficient 474 00:30:47.290 --> 00:30:50.980 enough that they could actually make them more efficient and more profitable. 475 00:30:50.980 --> 00:30:55.440 And it was worth while spending the extra money for that. And so when a guy 476 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:59.080 like Will says, well no, actually I'm going to take that as an indication 477 00:30:59.090 --> 00:31:04.840 that I could actually reap that benefit and leverage that opportunity for 478 00:31:04.840 --> 00:31:09.490 myself and my own people that might be, you know, and we'll see how it plays 479 00:31:09.490 --> 00:31:12.050 out. It's certainly not a done deal. He's still working hard to build his 480 00:31:12.050 --> 00:31:16.510 business. But in retrospect, when we look back in five years, I think what 481 00:31:16.510 --> 00:31:21.680 we see how well, but to the trend within the industry with him as it 482 00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:25.060 related to M and A, I think could very well prove to be thought leadership and 483 00:31:25.070 --> 00:31:31.210 his brand personal and, and and and business brand both, you know, could 484 00:31:31.220 --> 00:31:35.650 even magnify because of that. So I think it's very interesting to look at 485 00:31:35.650 --> 00:31:38.540 what people are doing right now and maybe look to see what we're going to 486 00:31:38.540 --> 00:31:42.330 view that in five years. And I guess that's maybe just a product of maybe in 487 00:31:42.330 --> 00:31:49.530 a near boomer, is I like the benefit of looking forward. Well, I appreciate the 488 00:31:49.530 --> 00:31:52.830 comments. I don't think of myself as a thought leader. I definitely think of 489 00:31:52.830 --> 00:31:56.890 myself as a student as I'm trying to learn. I haven't aspired, I aspired to 490 00:31:56.890 --> 00:32:00.920 be a thought leader and I aspire to help, but one I will never call myself 491 00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:06.010 one and I think I'll just continue to go on linkedin and post the most 492 00:32:06.010 --> 00:32:09.480 helpful things and show up in people's comments and send lots of Diem's and 493 00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:14.440 just try to be the most helpful person. I could possibly be if that if I end up 494 00:32:14.450 --> 00:32:17.820 helping lots of people and then my ideas, like can help a majority of 495 00:32:17.820 --> 00:32:21.600 people and that's great. I hope my, my greatest fear is that I will post an 496 00:32:21.600 --> 00:32:27.170 idea a little bit too confidently, that I just like, it's so hard to flirt with 497 00:32:27.170 --> 00:32:29.490 the line because sometimes you post as a marketer, knowing you're trying to 498 00:32:29.490 --> 00:32:33.640 get reach with just the post itself, but you do it a little bit too 499 00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:37.910 confidently and I have a lot of people that like, call me out on linkedin, 500 00:32:37.910 --> 00:32:41.650 they're like uh dan, like the nuance on that, you know, it's wrong, kind of 501 00:32:41.650 --> 00:32:45.720 like, you're right, go and change it, you know? So luckily, social media is, 502 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:49.050 it has a great way of keeping you humble and I it's my goal to try to be 503 00:32:49.050 --> 00:32:52.550 that I think there is something to actually like learning and growing on 504 00:32:52.550 --> 00:32:55.960 social, so I'm not getting, you're not getting on a stage, but it's like, it's 505 00:32:55.960 --> 00:33:00.420 almost like a little mini stage um and it's a linkedin in itself is a great 506 00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:04.750 place to learn to grow and to test because people are kinder on linkedin, 507 00:33:04.760 --> 00:33:07.370 on twitter, they rip you apart, but on linkedin and people are a little bit 508 00:33:07.370 --> 00:33:11.140 more constructive because their professional reputation is attached to 509 00:33:11.140 --> 00:33:14.590 it um and their boss is gonna see it, you know? Well as a 510 00:33:16.050 --> 00:33:19.560 to challenge maybe even call out publicly, not call out a person 511 00:33:19.560 --> 00:33:23.510 publicly, but like say like, I don't know if I agree with this idea, but I'm 512 00:33:23.510 --> 00:33:26.980 open to feedback as long as you have a humble heart and are willing to learn 513 00:33:26.980 --> 00:33:29.710 and grow and there's certainly things I've had to change my stances on as 514 00:33:29.710 --> 00:33:33.990 people are like dan. Now, it's kind of the other way I'm like, okay you're 515 00:33:33.990 --> 00:33:36.810 right, or sometimes like sometimes I end up becoming more firm in my 516 00:33:36.810 --> 00:33:41.870 position or think thoughts on the topic, but so you're a student of marketing 517 00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:46.060 and then by pursuing that, you've accidentally become a thought leader 518 00:33:46.060 --> 00:33:51.610 within marketing podcasting. I have a hypothesis and I'll just call it that 519 00:33:51.610 --> 00:33:55.090 because it's just a hypothesis. But I think the best way to become a thought 520 00:33:55.090 --> 00:33:58.440 leader is what I call learning in the light, because that way people can 521 00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:04.020 watch you grow, watch you learn, watch you fail to because there's going to be 522 00:34:04.020 --> 00:34:07.410 a lot of failure ship to becoming an actual thought leader, but if they 523 00:34:07.410 --> 00:34:10.560 watch you do it and you do it in a humble way and you ask good questions 524 00:34:10.560 --> 00:34:15.110 and you actually listen to people, take their advice and then get better. Like 525 00:34:15.110 --> 00:34:19.840 if people watch you do it publicly, then it's a more genuine way of 526 00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:23.850 building thought leadership, but ditching yourself as a student, be 527 00:34:23.850 --> 00:34:28.530 humble, take criticism even if it's a little angry sometimes, but take it for 528 00:34:28.530 --> 00:34:32.710 what it is and learn, try to learn from it. And if you can learn and be helpful 529 00:34:32.710 --> 00:34:37.040 and do that in public, do it in the light where everybody can see you, it 530 00:34:37.040 --> 00:34:41.010 will be a more genuine way to build authority without having to get up on 531 00:34:41.010 --> 00:34:44.770 stage as much and being just the show men who is just so good at speaking 532 00:34:44.770 --> 00:34:47.610 that people aren't raptured because there is some people, there are some 533 00:34:47.610 --> 00:34:51.469 people who are so good with their words and their presentation that they can 534 00:34:51.469 --> 00:34:55.280 make you believe they're credible just because they got you with a few stories 535 00:34:55.290 --> 00:35:00.020 and a few cool and anecdotes, right? But I don't you don't want to be that 536 00:35:00.020 --> 00:35:02.840 you want to be the genuine one who's kind of like learning their way up and 537 00:35:02.850 --> 00:35:08.150 serving and stuff. That's my, I believe that I could have talked to my land and 538 00:35:08.150 --> 00:35:13.840 many, many sales over the years that I didn't because I'm looking for good 539 00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:18.300 plant services experiences. Uh and so yes, you're, you're right, you can talk 540 00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:21.460 yourself into things um and you can put yourself into positions that you 541 00:35:21.460 --> 00:35:24.640 shouldn't be in and that would be the opposite. I thought leadership. But you 542 00:35:24.640 --> 00:35:27.440 just mentioned something that made me think of something in terms of thought 543 00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.280 leadership. And I'm gonna give you an example of a very strange thing that I 544 00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:35.460 view is thought leadership has almost nothing to do with our industry. But 545 00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:39.780 really it is in my mind, genuine but accidental thought leadership and it's 546 00:35:39.780 --> 00:35:43.310 going to be, this is a quantum leap for everyone. But please go check it out 547 00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:48.630 twins. The new trend on Youtube. Have you seen these guys? Say it again twins. 548 00:35:48.630 --> 00:35:54.470 The new trend, twins is the new trend now is just twins. The new trend. And 549 00:35:54.470 --> 00:36:00.030 so it's two twins from Gary indiana who are reacting there, reaction videos to 550 00:36:00.030 --> 00:36:03.770 music and they are yet you have to see it to believe that there's no 551 00:36:03.770 --> 00:36:07.360 description I could give to do it justice. But what they're doing is 552 00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:10.380 totally accidental. Thought leadership there. Thought leaders and race 553 00:36:10.380 --> 00:36:13.480 relations and their thought leaders in music without being meaning to be 554 00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:17.180 either they're just being too good dudes sharing their experience, 555 00:36:17.190 --> 00:36:21.920 watching them grow, watching them learn and watching them progress in their 556 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:25.700 lives and build something for themselves is an amazing experience for 557 00:36:25.700 --> 00:36:29.490 me and it's so strange. But boomers all over the country I think are reacting 558 00:36:29.490 --> 00:36:32.420 similarly and I think they are thought leaders without meaning to check them 559 00:36:32.420 --> 00:36:35.270 out. It's the strangest plug that could give as an example of thought 560 00:36:35.270 --> 00:36:38.350 leadership, but they would never call themselves thought leaders. But I do 561 00:36:38.530 --> 00:36:44.510 interesting. So if I kind of run my thing or my philosophy that it has to 562 00:36:44.510 --> 00:36:49.710 be experts, unique ideas authority. So there's certainly growing an authority 563 00:36:49.710 --> 00:36:52.920 that much is clear. They've probably through time, they've done a lot of 564 00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:58.420 content. Yes. And it took them a long time to figure out, well not a long 565 00:36:58.420 --> 00:37:02.550 time and it took him a year to figure out what content resonated with what 566 00:37:02.550 --> 00:37:07.010 their actual demographic ended up being. And so watching that evolution of what 567 00:37:07.010 --> 00:37:10.590 they thought their demographic was to what actually unlock the door to 568 00:37:10.590 --> 00:37:14.610 millions of views for each video. I mean they're going from 500 views on a 569 00:37:14.610 --> 00:37:18.540 certain demographic to millions on another and it's obvious why and 570 00:37:18.540 --> 00:37:21.970 there's conversations that lead from having watched them, but they checked 571 00:37:22.070 --> 00:37:26.000 the trend out and seriously I'm plugging them because your root for 572 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.630 them and why they thought leaders. There's certainly a lot of shades 573 00:37:29.630 --> 00:37:32.300 between influencer because there's a lot of influencers out there, 574 00:37:32.300 --> 00:37:35.790 especially on Youtube and thought leader because a thought leader is 575 00:37:35.790 --> 00:37:40.220 really a more specific influencer, right? And of course there are some who 576 00:37:40.220 --> 00:37:42.950 are like really strong because they're known for their expertise and their 577 00:37:42.950 --> 00:37:46.880 unique contributions to an industry. And then there's like all kinds of 578 00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:52.690 shades between that and like Casey Neistat saying he likes something who's 579 00:37:52.690 --> 00:37:57.750 an influential Youtuber, right? Because he's just, everybody likes him, right? 580 00:37:58.130 --> 00:38:01.300 So there's a big difference, but there's a lot of shades in between 581 00:38:01.300 --> 00:38:04.190 there and I think there's a gamut, so I bet these guys run somewhere in there 582 00:38:04.200 --> 00:38:06.360 where it's like you want to think of them as a typical thought leader 583 00:38:06.370 --> 00:38:09.600 because they're not like writing books and presenting unique ideas, but in a 584 00:38:09.600 --> 00:38:14.640 way they're giving commentary on something and their commentary runs 585 00:38:14.640 --> 00:38:18.050 from an expertise of doing it over and over again and people start to trust 586 00:38:18.050 --> 00:38:22.560 that commentary. I mean in the case of Casey Neistat, that's an absolute 587 00:38:22.560 --> 00:38:25.710 thought leader, right? What he did was people didn't realize he brought a 588 00:38:25.710 --> 00:38:30.240 background in cinematography and cinema into a Youtube channel and and 589 00:38:30.240 --> 00:38:34.310 fundamentally changed how every and now everyone copies that style to. They 590 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:37.430 don't realize why they have cinematic style. He's absolutely, I thought 591 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:40.910 thought leader when it comes to cinematography in Youtube and a lot of 592 00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:44.930 even internet culture and a lot of things like he could probably speak to 593 00:38:44.930 --> 00:38:50.040 like drone cinematography and tech and vlogging for sure. Um but like, like he 594 00:38:50.040 --> 00:38:53.050 posts his other opinions about things like politics and you're kind of like, 595 00:38:53.060 --> 00:38:56.800 okay, that's where he's just an influencer, right? That's the natural 596 00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:59.840 progression, right? I forget who said it, but basically an intellectual is 597 00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:03.570 just an expert talking outside of their field, right? I would say an 598 00:39:03.570 --> 00:39:08.250 intellectual, especially when they're giving criticism is usually an expert 599 00:39:08.260 --> 00:39:11.850 speaking, I would say, usually speaking to their fill, but they're not adding 600 00:39:11.850 --> 00:39:16.530 unique and helpful ideas. They're critiquing other people's ideas and 601 00:39:16.530 --> 00:39:20.540 that's what I would call public intellectual. There's actually a book 602 00:39:20.540 --> 00:39:23.980 that kind of chronicles the difference between the the public intellectual on 603 00:39:23.980 --> 00:39:28.180 the thought leader called the The Industry of Ideas. It's fascinating 604 00:39:28.180 --> 00:39:32.130 book. That's at least that's how that one author to find it. So there's 605 00:39:32.130 --> 00:39:36.030 probably many, many definitions out there. But know this has been a really 606 00:39:36.030 --> 00:39:40.710 fun conversation. It certainly challenged me to think about how like, 607 00:39:40.720 --> 00:39:44.750 really what thought leadership really is and how to wrestle with the people 608 00:39:45.220 --> 00:39:50.570 or how it's often faked, how it's often more of a disadvantage to try to go 609 00:39:50.570 --> 00:39:53.690 after being a thought later, if you go about it the wrong way. So this has 610 00:39:53.690 --> 00:39:59.510 been a fun conversation for me and I'd like to help anybody who's been 611 00:39:59.510 --> 00:40:02.780 listening to this has been kind of fascinated by your perspectives. Where 612 00:40:02.780 --> 00:40:07.330 can they go to find you online to learn more about who you are and what you do? 613 00:40:07.340 --> 00:40:11.850 Uh Well I am on linkedin, you can find me on linkedin obviously, and I can 614 00:40:11.850 --> 00:40:14.980 probably say that that's the only thing close to social, you'll find me on, 615 00:40:14.980 --> 00:40:20.280 that's who I am these days. So closed loop dot com is our business. And 616 00:40:20.290 --> 00:40:24.770 linkedin is where you can find me and message me directly. Fantastic. Thank 617 00:40:24.770 --> 00:40:27.870 you again for being on GDP growth. Likewise, thanks for having me dan, 618 00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:28.430 great stuff. 619 00:40:32.310 --> 00:40:36.230 Is the decision maker for your product or service of BB marketer. Are you 620 00:40:36.230 --> 00:40:40.450 looking to reach those buyers through the medium of podcasting? Considered 621 00:40:40.450 --> 00:40:45.790 becoming a co host of GDP Growth? This show is consistently ranked as a Top 622 00:40:45.790 --> 00:40:49.820 100 podcast in the marketing category of Apple Podcasts, And the show gets 623 00:40:49.820 --> 00:40:55.390 more than 130,000 downloads each month. We've already done the work of building 624 00:40:55.390 --> 00:40:59.420 the audience so you can focus on delivering incredible content to our 625 00:40:59.420 --> 00:41:03.830 listeners if you're interested, email Logan at sweet Fish Media dot com? 626 00:41:06.410 --> 00:41:08.320 Yeah.