#HowToPodcast 15: How to Design a Podcast “Logo” (Cover Art) w/ Kelsie Montgomery

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:08.750 Welcome back to the BB growth show. My name is James Carberry and we 2 00:00:08.869 --> 00:00:16.109 are doing an episode for our how to podcast series and I'm joined today by 3 00:00:16.390 --> 00:00:22.859 our incredibly brilliant and super creative creative director, Kelsey Montgomery. Is Our very 4 00:00:22.980 --> 00:00:27.379 first podcast interviews of Kelsey. Welcome to the show. Tell us how you're 5 00:00:27.379 --> 00:00:31.460 doing today. Thanks for having me. I am doing really good. Excited 6 00:00:31.539 --> 00:00:36.009 to finally be on my first podcast. Yes, so, you joined our 7 00:00:36.049 --> 00:00:42.770 team last year and you have completely overhauled and taken us to a completely different 8 00:00:42.810 --> 00:00:47.289 level in terms of design. So your background is is as a designer. 9 00:00:47.369 --> 00:00:51.159 You stepped in as a creative director here, so you're overseeing our writers, 10 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:55.000 are our audio and video team, as well as our design team and a 11 00:00:55.079 --> 00:00:58.600 lot of what we're doing on social as well. So if you've been listening 12 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:00.920 to show for a while and you know that we used to have a really 13 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:06.709 crappy podcast cover art for BB growth, for this show, and you've noticed 14 00:01:06.750 --> 00:01:08.469 in the last two months that it's gotten a whole lot better. That is 15 00:01:08.510 --> 00:01:12.829 Kelsey's doing. She's also designed all of the, I think four of the 16 00:01:12.909 --> 00:01:18.900 five covers for a bunch of different shows that we have produced in the last 17 00:01:18.900 --> 00:01:23.739 several months. So you did the CIO show, you did bb sale show, 18 00:01:23.140 --> 00:01:26.579 obviously overhauld bb growth, and then you did crafting culture as well. 19 00:01:26.620 --> 00:01:30.060 So the topic what we're going to be talking about today, Kelse, is 20 00:01:30.579 --> 00:01:36.329 podcast covers, and this is so huge. You know, you always hear 21 00:01:36.530 --> 00:01:38.409 the tired saying like you can't judge a book by its cover, but the 22 00:01:38.530 --> 00:01:42.250 reality is we all do, and the same is true with podcasts. We 23 00:01:42.489 --> 00:01:49.120 judge podcasts by their cover and I hate, hate, hate seeing companies get 24 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:56.560 into podcasting and they don't pay that close of attention or put that much effort 25 00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:02.269 into their podcast cover and it ends up keeping them from growing an audience because 26 00:02:02.590 --> 00:02:07.509 people are searching and they're they're finding their podcast but they're they don't want to 27 00:02:07.509 --> 00:02:13.430 subscribe to it because the podcast cover looks cheap and they're thinking, at least 28 00:02:13.430 --> 00:02:15.659 I'm thinking, whenever I see a cheap cover art, I think, man, 29 00:02:15.699 --> 00:02:20.219 if they didn't put that much evert into the cover, they probably aren't 30 00:02:20.219 --> 00:02:23.020 putting that much ever into the content and I don't want to subscribe or listen 31 00:02:23.060 --> 00:02:28.219 to this show. So that's my personal two sense. But you're going to 32 00:02:28.259 --> 00:02:31.050 be driving this interview for the most part. Else you've got a ton to 33 00:02:31.210 --> 00:02:36.610 say around tactically, how should you be thinking about podcast covers? How can 34 00:02:36.650 --> 00:02:39.129 you make sure that whatever firm you're using, whether it's you know, US 35 00:02:39.169 --> 00:02:43.729 or somebody else, or you're having your internal design team do this? So 36 00:02:44.050 --> 00:02:49.800 let's start by talking about the difference between podcast cover art and podcast logos. 37 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:52.599 I know this is something we've had. This has been challenging for our team, 38 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:55.520 just talking back and forth amongst ourselves. Talk to us about the difference 39 00:02:55.560 --> 00:03:00.629 there. Yeah, so a logo really is, it should be, a 40 00:03:00.750 --> 00:03:06.710 simplified mark that defines an overall entity. So cover art you want to think 41 00:03:06.710 --> 00:03:10.550 of as more it's almost like a book cover, as opposed to, you 42 00:03:10.629 --> 00:03:15.259 know, the person's name. So the logo is going to be you know, 43 00:03:15.539 --> 00:03:20.379 a lot of times will create some sort of word mark based on the 44 00:03:20.419 --> 00:03:23.699 name of the show. But really, when we're designing cover art, it 45 00:03:23.900 --> 00:03:28.169 does not cover art does not equal logo. So there's a logo on a 46 00:03:28.210 --> 00:03:31.370 lot of our cover art because a lot of our podcasts are presented by different 47 00:03:31.409 --> 00:03:38.210 companies, and so there's a difference between the sweet fish logo and the you 48 00:03:38.289 --> 00:03:42.000 know, the sweetish logos featured on the BEDB growth cover art, but it's 49 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:46.960 not the BEDB growth cover artist. Its own little system of components and the 50 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:50.560 logo makes up one component of that system. Got It. Okay. So 51 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:54.159 this next piece that I want to talk about is the purpose of cover art. 52 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:58.189 So now we've we understand what we're talking about when we say cover our 53 00:03:58.270 --> 00:04:00.629 here. It's not the same as a logo. So now that we've got 54 00:04:00.750 --> 00:04:04.270 that out of the way, let's talk about the purpose of cover art and 55 00:04:04.710 --> 00:04:09.430 why it's so important that companies nail it. Yeah, so a lot of 56 00:04:09.509 --> 00:04:13.580 times we tend to think of cover art as kind of like a little bio 57 00:04:13.900 --> 00:04:17.779 in an image and if you are hosting a show, in making the cover 58 00:04:17.899 --> 00:04:21.860 art completely about you rather than the content. You know, if I'm just 59 00:04:23.019 --> 00:04:27.810 organically running across your cover art, I'm going to look at that podcast and 60 00:04:28.410 --> 00:04:30.730 assume that it's about something that it may not at all be about. So 61 00:04:30.889 --> 00:04:36.649 it's really less about the one presenting the content, it's less about the want, 62 00:04:36.810 --> 00:04:42.399 the the even the guests featured or the person hosting, and it has 63 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:44.600 a way more, it should have way more to do and tell me a 64 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:46.560 story about what that content, or at least give me a hint of what 65 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:50.079 that content is going to entail. Give me a taste of what I'm going 66 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:54.029 to have, you know, receive us. As I'm listening to this show, 67 00:04:54.629 --> 00:04:59.310 you know if it's if we're you want the the content to match the 68 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:02.870 same esthetic that you see on the cover art. So if there's like a 69 00:05:02.949 --> 00:05:09.220 super conversational, informal you know, there's like the vibe, I guess, 70 00:05:09.259 --> 00:05:13.939 of the show doesn't match the cover art, you're not really giving anybody an 71 00:05:13.980 --> 00:05:17.420 accurate preview of what that is actually going to be about some sense. Yeah, 72 00:05:17.420 --> 00:05:21.209 it totally does. Can you walk through Kells what that what that's looked 73 00:05:21.209 --> 00:05:26.610 like for some of the covers that you've designed for us since you've been on 74 00:05:26.689 --> 00:05:30.490 the team? Yeah, an example of that was kind of one of my 75 00:05:30.529 --> 00:05:34.410 favorites was baby sales show. So for the BB sales show, you know, 76 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:39.399 some of the imagery we really talked about wanting to avoid was like the 77 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:44.720 typical businessman and suits shaking hands with their briefcases, you know, this like 78 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:50.189 old world salesz just suit vibe that we were really wanting to avoid. Basically, 79 00:05:50.230 --> 00:05:54.029 if you, if you like, go to a stock photo website and 80 00:05:54.069 --> 00:05:57.470 type in business. Everything you see there's who don't want to be in that 81 00:05:57.589 --> 00:06:01.709 show. And so, because we're taking a different approach and because because we're 82 00:06:01.750 --> 00:06:05.819 really wanting to like make it relevant and make like it doesn't have to be 83 00:06:06.220 --> 00:06:09.459 something that makes you want to Bang your head against the wall. It's a 84 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:12.980 fun show. You know. We talked about a lot of things that applied 85 00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:15.899 to work and life and so, yeah, we wanted to keep it fun 86 00:06:16.100 --> 00:06:20.449 and keep it fresh and also keep it smart. So we decided to go 87 00:06:20.490 --> 00:06:25.329 at the fist bump. We tied in a couple of different elements that that 88 00:06:25.850 --> 00:06:29.250 pertain directly to the field and we ended up with something that was really fun 89 00:06:29.329 --> 00:06:33.399 and versatile and lended itself to a more you know, if you look at 90 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:35.519 the rest of that, we have the cover art and then we have all 91 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:39.639 these other deliverables that we were able to create, you know, based on 92 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:43.519 that identity and how this whole system that just like took on a life of 93 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:46.839 its own with with whatever deliverable we ended up wanting to make with it. 94 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:49.990 Yeah, we'll talk about that a little bit later in the interview. Talking 95 00:06:49.990 --> 00:06:57.430 about identities and building out a brand identity for your show, but we really 96 00:06:57.470 --> 00:07:00.779 wanted to drill down on the reason we're putting so much effort into podcast covers 97 00:07:01.180 --> 00:07:04.860 is because the purpose of these is that you want your show to stand out 98 00:07:05.060 --> 00:07:11.060 when folks are finding you in channels like apple podcast, spotify, Google podcasts, 99 00:07:11.899 --> 00:07:15.129 now that Google is starting to index and transcribe all of your podcast content, 100 00:07:15.209 --> 00:07:20.089 when people are searching for topics there, you know Google's actually pulling up 101 00:07:20.290 --> 00:07:27.410 different podcasts inside of a carousel in the Google results. So if your cover 102 00:07:27.569 --> 00:07:30.439 art sucks, your show is not going to stand out and you're going to 103 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:35.399 limit the discoverability of your show on search engines as well as, you know, 104 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:39.240 in natively, inside these platforms. So if you put a lot of 105 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:44.120 thought and effort into making sure that your your podcast cover is done well, 106 00:07:44.870 --> 00:07:48.990 then you're much more likely to convert people from seeing your your podcast cover to 107 00:07:49.029 --> 00:07:55.189 actually subscribing, consuming your content and hopefully, you know, purchasing your product 108 00:07:55.230 --> 00:07:58.860 or your service down the road after they've consumed your content and get a feel 109 00:07:58.899 --> 00:08:01.420 for what you're all about. So I want to move next into something that's 110 00:08:01.420 --> 00:08:05.100 super tactical, but it's really important. I've heard you talk about this a 111 00:08:05.180 --> 00:08:09.620 lot and it's understanding the dimensions of a podcast cover. Talk to us about 112 00:08:09.620 --> 00:08:11.300 what we need to know. Is it relates to dimensions. Yeah, so 113 00:08:11.660 --> 00:08:16.689 a lot of these platforms will they'll give you a range of what what dimensions 114 00:08:16.730 --> 00:08:20.610 are acceptable in order to put your cover into into the platform, and it'll 115 00:08:20.649 --> 00:08:24.810 usually be somewhere around two thousand by two thousand pixels. It's always a square. 116 00:08:26.490 --> 00:08:30.560 But in order to be featured in any of the lists that these different, 117 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:33.840 you know, spotify published lists, apple podcast published lists, in order 118 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:37.320 to get a shot at being featured in any of that, you have to 119 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.990 have three thousand by three thousand pixels of quality and and there can be no 120 00:08:43.149 --> 00:08:46.629 pixelation. You don't want anything fuzzy, you don't want anything not rendered properly. 121 00:08:46.830 --> 00:08:52.070 So in order for you to give a shot at a really, you 122 00:08:52.149 --> 00:08:54.309 know, giving your show a chance to be featured, you know, by 123 00:08:54.350 --> 00:08:58.500 Apple Podcast, you have to have the highest quality. So our team doesn't 124 00:08:58.500 --> 00:09:03.019 design anything under three thousand by three thousand. And you'd mentioned something earlier about 125 00:09:03.059 --> 00:09:07.179 how it shows up in different platforms. So it's like fifty by fifty. 126 00:09:07.460 --> 00:09:11.649 Is there anything, any other dimensions that you think people should know? Just 127 00:09:11.809 --> 00:09:15.490 so you know like, how is this logo showing up in different contexts? 128 00:09:16.129 --> 00:09:20.409 Yeah, so it's it's interesting because, while I think you know podcast cover 129 00:09:20.529 --> 00:09:24.559 art, the the closest thing that I can compare it to would be a 130 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:28.919 book cover. However, we have this additional challenge of it displaying, you 131 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:33.120 know, a thousand different sizes. So it just it because all of the 132 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:39.429 different APPS that we're viewing these shows in are responsive to whatever device were on. 133 00:09:39.909 --> 00:09:45.429 There's a range of literally thousands of different sizes that your cover art will 134 00:09:45.429 --> 00:09:48.190 be displayed at. You want to make sure that it works as large as 135 00:09:48.269 --> 00:09:52.019 three thousand by three thousand, where it fills an entire screen, as well 136 00:09:52.100 --> 00:09:56.620 as something that's like a thumbnail size on your phone, so it doesn't have 137 00:09:56.740 --> 00:10:01.419 to be necessarily readable and it's literally smaller than your fingernail. If you're if 138 00:10:01.460 --> 00:10:03.299 you're scrolling through a podcast APP on your phone, you see how tiny those 139 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:09.769 those cover art that's displayed there. So as long as you are somewhat recognizable 140 00:10:09.769 --> 00:10:13.169 at that size, you should be good to go. The issue comes back 141 00:10:13.289 --> 00:10:18.409 to like having too much worthiness, too many. You know, it may 142 00:10:18.570 --> 00:10:22.120 work at three thousand by three thousand, but if everything is lost fifty by 143 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.080 fifty, it's really not going to be effective. A lot of times that's 144 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:28.639 only size people will see it at because it exclusively listen on their phone. 145 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:33.519 Got It. This next piece we want to talk about is backgrounds. This 146 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.789 is something that we used to make the mistake of using white backgrounds all the 147 00:10:37.950 --> 00:10:41.389 time in a lot of the logos that we were producing for our show and 148 00:10:41.470 --> 00:10:45.669 then for clients as well, and then I started to notice that the shows 149 00:10:45.710 --> 00:10:50.100 that really seem to be popping and growing audiences, they've got solid color backgrounds 150 00:10:50.259 --> 00:10:54.899 or there's more texture in their background. Talk to us about backgrounds. How 151 00:10:54.940 --> 00:10:58.340 you think about backgrounds when it's okay to actually have a white background versus, 152 00:10:58.620 --> 00:11:01.659 you know, most of the time it's not. Talk to us about how 153 00:11:01.700 --> 00:11:03.570 you think about that. Yeah, so, if you if you think back 154 00:11:03.649 --> 00:11:07.970 to how the cover art displays at such a tiny size, fifty by fifty 155 00:11:09.009 --> 00:11:11.889 pixels, when you're looking at it on your phone, the background then becomes 156 00:11:11.929 --> 00:11:16.090 an opportunity for you to kind of give your eye somewhere to stall. So 157 00:11:16.490 --> 00:11:20.039 if you have just a plain white background and you're not, you know, 158 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:24.799 in PR that has a super recognizable logo that you can see at least recognizable 159 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:30.440 from that size. You're really you're most likely, unless it's really special, 160 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:33.950 which a white background tends to not be. Unless it's really special, is 161 00:11:35.029 --> 00:11:37.429 just going to blend in. You're not. You're not going to stall as 162 00:11:37.509 --> 00:11:43.669 you're scrolling through. So the the idea is to you know, at a 163 00:11:43.710 --> 00:11:46.500 larger size. Obviously you want it to be readable, so, you know, 164 00:11:46.539 --> 00:11:50.059 viewing it on desktop or viewing it in a different view on your phone, 165 00:11:50.100 --> 00:11:54.740 you want it to be readable to where there's enough contrast in the background. 166 00:11:54.740 --> 00:11:56.740 It can be over a photo, can be over a texture, can 167 00:11:56.779 --> 00:12:00.539 be over anything, as long as there's enough contrast where you can read the 168 00:12:00.740 --> 00:12:05.889 pertinent information, the you know, whatever icon or imagery you are using to 169 00:12:05.049 --> 00:12:09.929 support the like. Hey, this is what the shows about. You just 170 00:12:09.049 --> 00:12:13.730 want that to be recognizable. So if it's something that blends into and you 171 00:12:13.809 --> 00:12:16.480 have to think about things like color blindness to if you have two really really 172 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:20.799 similar colors and there's no contrast, even even if you can read, you 173 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.600 know, pink on top of orange, some people can't and it'll just look 174 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:28.519 like a square. So just having contrast in the background and trying to keep 175 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.509 it to wear, you know, even if you just have text over over 176 00:12:31.629 --> 00:12:35.509 a background of some kind and it's just text, there's really there's you know, 177 00:12:35.590 --> 00:12:39.149 it's just a typeface with whatever the show's name is and your logo. 178 00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:43.830 If it's that simple. You know, in order to make that stronger, 179 00:12:43.909 --> 00:12:46.419 in order to make it stand out and make it special and recognizable, having 180 00:12:46.460 --> 00:12:50.460 something unique in the background is is a great way to go awesome. So 181 00:12:50.620 --> 00:12:54.659 I know if you're listening to this is it could be tough, right because 182 00:12:54.659 --> 00:12:58.610 we're talking about something very visual and an audio medium. So look in the 183 00:12:58.649 --> 00:13:01.450 show notes of this episode, we're going to have a link to a blog 184 00:13:01.529 --> 00:13:05.889 post that we've written where you can see visually some examples of what we're talking 185 00:13:05.929 --> 00:13:11.049 about. You're going to see the example that that Kelsey shared earlier with the 186 00:13:11.169 --> 00:13:13.799 BB sales show logo. Will are the cover art. See they're go doing 187 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:16.720 it again, calling them logos. So know that you can go to that 188 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:20.559 blog post check out the visuals to go along with this. The next piece 189 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:24.919 that I want to talk about, Gils, is around copy. So how 190 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.309 should people be thinking about the copy inside of their logo? I you know, 191 00:13:28.470 --> 00:13:31.549 it's going to be insto their logo. They're going get inside of their 192 00:13:31.549 --> 00:13:35.990 cover art if they're you know, you're looking at this going some versions of 193 00:13:37.110 --> 00:13:39.870 this cover art are going to be the size of my thumbnail. What the 194 00:13:39.950 --> 00:13:43.940 heck like? What? What can I possibly do to make sure that people 195 00:13:43.940 --> 00:13:48.379 can legibly see the name of my show? So how do you think about 196 00:13:48.379 --> 00:13:50.539 copy as it relates to cover art? Yeah, you just want to make 197 00:13:50.620 --> 00:13:56.610 sure that you're keeping in mind the whole point behind. What is the problem 198 00:13:56.730 --> 00:14:00.289 the cover artist solving? You're wanting to intrigue people, give them a hint 199 00:14:00.330 --> 00:14:01.929 of what the content is going to be about and make them want to listen 200 00:14:01.929 --> 00:14:07.690 to the show. So the PODCAST does not have to contain every little detail 201 00:14:07.730 --> 00:14:11.159 about what the show's about, what to expect, who hosts it, who's 202 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:15.240 it presented by? You want to keep it intriguing and you want to put 203 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:20.559 pertinent information on there, but the main, really the main message coming across 204 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:26.149 should either be some sort of Moti for illustration it gives an idea of what 205 00:14:26.269 --> 00:14:28.309 the what the content will be about, or the name of the show. 206 00:14:28.710 --> 00:14:33.830 And ideally you'll have a really a strong name that will, you know, 207 00:14:33.110 --> 00:14:39.179 work in conjunction with some type of imagery. But if you don't you really 208 00:14:39.179 --> 00:14:41.340 want to be able to lean on the imagery? So if the problem that 209 00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:48.019 you're solving is getting someone to be intrigued enough by the cover art to listen 210 00:14:48.059 --> 00:14:50.580 to the show, then then you don't needed to be a book cover, 211 00:14:50.779 --> 00:14:54.970 you don't need a summary, you don't need taglines all these other things that 212 00:14:56.330 --> 00:14:58.889 people tend to want to cram in there because they're like, oh, I 213 00:14:58.009 --> 00:15:01.330 have this one chance to grab someone's attention. Well, if there's all that 214 00:15:01.570 --> 00:15:05.330 going on, you're not grabbing my attention, you're overwhelming me and I'm just 215 00:15:05.370 --> 00:15:07.159 going to move on to the next thing. It makes a lot of sense. 216 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:13.519 How should companies that are getting into podcasting, you know that most of 217 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:16.039 the companies were working with Kel, say, as you know, they've got 218 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.320 brand guidelines already. How what should they be looking for in their existing brand 219 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:26.470 guidelines to help them shape what their cover art should look like? Yeah, 220 00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:30.509 you can build a company on a set of values and on a mission and 221 00:15:30.669 --> 00:15:35.539 a goal, and you know have your target market, your target audience and 222 00:15:37.259 --> 00:15:41.580 your goal with your company's entity is to show people who you are. A 223 00:15:41.379 --> 00:15:48.860 podcast, when a company presents a podcast, their delivering some some portion of 224 00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:54.210 their identity, whether that's values or what they can give as a vout, 225 00:15:54.289 --> 00:15:56.610 why you should work with them, with they're capable of doing, or speaking 226 00:15:56.649 --> 00:16:02.490 even just in general to the space that they working. Man. Whenever you 227 00:16:02.690 --> 00:16:07.320 are making your cover art about everything about who you are, it really does 228 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:12.240 not communicate with the content itself. Is So if you're if you have a 229 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:17.679 show that's all about who you are, I don't necessarily see how that's really 230 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:19.710 going to be. It just it seems like they're so confusion there. You're 231 00:16:19.750 --> 00:16:22.389 target audience, like, are you listen to a show that's all about you? 232 00:16:22.549 --> 00:16:25.629 I mean, we talked about it all the time in terms of how 233 00:16:25.669 --> 00:16:30.509 you should name your podcast. Do not name your show after your brand, 234 00:16:30.110 --> 00:16:36.820 your host, name your company, your values, your tagline. You have 235 00:16:36.980 --> 00:16:41.059 to name the show after your listener persona. So BB growth has an audience 236 00:16:41.139 --> 00:16:45.220 of you know, we get over a hundred thousand dollars a month because we 237 00:16:45.340 --> 00:16:48.730 did not name it the B Tob podcasting show or the sweetish media podcast. 238 00:16:49.009 --> 00:16:52.529 We named it be tob growth and a lot of people are interested in BB 239 00:16:52.649 --> 00:16:56.690 growth. It has nothing to do with us, and so so often I 240 00:16:56.730 --> 00:17:00.049 see companies that want to name it after themselves thinking, well, I want 241 00:17:00.129 --> 00:17:03.240 to show, I want to show, to showcase my expertise or our company's 242 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:07.039 expertise, and I get that, but there are other ways to do that 243 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.799 more effectively. A podcast, the most effective the most effective form of your 244 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.910 podcast is going to be educating and shining the spotlight on your ideal customers and 245 00:17:17.309 --> 00:17:21.869 their problems, and they have problems that are much farther reaching than your product. 246 00:17:21.950 --> 00:17:23.789 To service you can. You can have ad spots for your product a 247 00:17:23.869 --> 00:17:27.470 service within your show. That's great. You can have a series even dedicated 248 00:17:27.549 --> 00:17:32.059 to it. Maybe a specific pain point that you solve. But we have 249 00:17:32.180 --> 00:17:36.099 seen so much success with be tob growth because we want one level higher and 250 00:17:36.220 --> 00:17:40.740 we're talking about something that is much more broad than just our specific expertise, 251 00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:42.819 which is be to be podcasting. But even it's so Meta, even this 252 00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:47.890 series right here. We've got a series called how to podcast with in BB 253 00:17:48.009 --> 00:17:49.970 growth, and so it allows us to talk about our expertise and what we 254 00:17:51.089 --> 00:17:55.609 do in a forum that doesn't detract from everything else. So when someone sees 255 00:17:55.650 --> 00:17:57.799 the Hashtag out a podcast in front of this headline on this episode, if 256 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:00.680 they're if they don't have a podcast or they're not interesting podcasting, they can 257 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.279 skip right by, and we want them to like, we only want them 258 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:07.279 to consume content they actually want. So you're speaking to something that is something 259 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:11.279 that we talked about a lot as we coach our customers on how to brand 260 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:15.470 their show. So I'm really glad that you touched on this. So if 261 00:18:15.509 --> 00:18:18.670 they if they have their existing you know, they have their existing grand guidelines, 262 00:18:18.670 --> 00:18:21.910 I'm assuming like they should stick to a similar font, where the same 263 00:18:22.109 --> 00:18:26.109 font that is in their existing brand guidelines. But they don't want to overwhelm 264 00:18:26.150 --> 00:18:30.500 the cover art with everything that has to do with their company. And I 265 00:18:30.579 --> 00:18:33.980 am I understanding you right there. Yeah, so you know, you don't 266 00:18:33.980 --> 00:18:37.500 want to put an example, like an icon that represents every branch of your 267 00:18:37.539 --> 00:18:40.099 company, all the things that you're capable of doing. You really want to 268 00:18:40.180 --> 00:18:41.769 just focus on. Okay, what's the purpose of this of this show? 269 00:18:42.009 --> 00:18:45.170 Who are we going to be interviewing? What are we going to be talking 270 00:18:45.210 --> 00:18:49.569 about? What can people expect to be consuming as they listen? Common mistake 271 00:18:49.650 --> 00:18:55.650 that I see in cover art is putting a mic, a microphone. Now, 272 00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:02.480 unless you are a show that is about microphones or about podcasting, if 273 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:06.839 you are nerding out on on like sure mics or something like that, that 274 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.589 makes sense. Sure it have a microphone on there, but it's a given 275 00:19:10.910 --> 00:19:17.150 that a podcast is going to include some component of a microphone. We don't 276 00:19:17.150 --> 00:19:18.990 put pictures of books on book covers. We don't put, you know, 277 00:19:19.390 --> 00:19:23.230 a screenshot of a profile in a profile image on social media. It really 278 00:19:23.269 --> 00:19:26.380 doesn't translate. So it kind of it kind of looks like, yeah, 279 00:19:26.420 --> 00:19:29.859 I didn't really try that hard or I couldn't think of anything else. Just 280 00:19:29.940 --> 00:19:33.220 looks lazy. So in it also doesn't tell me anything about the show other 281 00:19:33.259 --> 00:19:36.740 than some people will be talking. So I love that. Definitely one. 282 00:19:37.500 --> 00:19:40.529 We don't pick pictures of books on book covers, so why should we be 283 00:19:40.609 --> 00:19:45.410 putting Mike's on podcast covers? That that makes so much sense and I will 284 00:19:45.529 --> 00:19:49.049 likely be saying that way too many times and probably be annoying a lot of 285 00:19:49.130 --> 00:19:53.000 people with that. Another mistake that you mentioned that you see a lot of 286 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:56.880 people make. They put too much on the cover. Can you talk to 287 00:19:56.920 --> 00:20:02.319 us about that? Yeah, it's some you know, having having your show 288 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:06.240 and having a logo of like who the WHO, the show's presented by, 289 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:10.549 you're sponsored by whatever that is. Really more than one logo is overwhelming. 290 00:20:10.750 --> 00:20:15.109 The logo is such a small it's you don't start with the the logo that's 291 00:20:15.109 --> 00:20:18.589 featured on cover. Are you start with the show? You start with the 292 00:20:18.630 --> 00:20:21.779 name of the show. So or you're taking in what visually is happening, 293 00:20:21.819 --> 00:20:26.579 whichever one is visually louder. whicheveryone's stalls your eye the most. So the 294 00:20:26.779 --> 00:20:33.099 logo adds some credibility more often than not, or you know just well, 295 00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:34.890 really, for the most part I just add credibility of like hey, this 296 00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:38.809 person, you know, this is not just like some dude in his garage, 297 00:20:40.089 --> 00:20:41.329 or if it is, at least you know he's sponsored by whatever, 298 00:20:41.369 --> 00:20:45.490 or this is presented by a company. So it's trying too hard when you 299 00:20:45.569 --> 00:20:49.119 have like hey, we're presented by by this company. You know this is 300 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.279 this show and it's a show about where. You know, we're sweet fish 301 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.519 media. This is what sweetish media does. You know, if we if 302 00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:00.559 we list out who we are as a company or what we strive to be, 303 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.390 what our goals are in this podcast, or or even like what our 304 00:21:03.470 --> 00:21:07.109 target market is like, Hey, you would love this if you're a whatever. 305 00:21:07.430 --> 00:21:11.150 We have so many initial conversations with clients where they really want to put 306 00:21:11.190 --> 00:21:12.990 too much on there and it's just overwhelming. You want to think of this 307 00:21:14.829 --> 00:21:18.220 as something to stop someone in their tracks, something that looks different when you 308 00:21:18.299 --> 00:21:22.140 come across it in a feed and and really like it, intrigues you to 309 00:21:22.220 --> 00:21:26.220 continue on. It relates to me in some way. I'm intrigued by this. 310 00:21:26.740 --> 00:21:30.259 I have some idea of what the content is going to be about, 311 00:21:30.660 --> 00:21:33.049 and that's the problem that you're solving. If you have anything more on your 312 00:21:33.089 --> 00:21:37.369 cover art, you're really diluting your message and chances are I'm just going to 313 00:21:37.450 --> 00:21:41.890 keep going because visually I'm overwhelmed. I'm not receiving any valuable messaging from this 314 00:21:42.049 --> 00:21:45.849 and I really don't know anymore about what the content will contain. I like 315 00:21:47.009 --> 00:21:52.519 that tells. What's your two sins on where you should put your company's logo 316 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:57.680 on the cover art? HMM, you know, there are. It's always 317 00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:03.950 secondary. You don't want that to be the most pertinent piece of information on 318 00:22:03.029 --> 00:22:07.589 your cover art. So I tend to say depending on the Orientate, like 319 00:22:07.630 --> 00:22:11.190 if you have something that's center, a line you always wanted to work with 320 00:22:11.430 --> 00:22:15.779 in the design. Whatever structure is created with a composition of the work itself. 321 00:22:15.859 --> 00:22:19.059 So like where things are placed. You know you you want it to 322 00:22:19.180 --> 00:22:23.019 like flow into that. It's always I would say it's like an IPASS. 323 00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:27.819 So like my eyes, starts usually in the middle of cover art because that's 324 00:22:27.859 --> 00:22:32.890 typically where I see the title of the show, and then I'd like slowly 325 00:22:33.009 --> 00:22:37.089 make my way down and typically like bottom corn I see it in the bottom 326 00:22:37.130 --> 00:22:40.690 corners of bottom, in the center, really really anywhere that's sort of top 327 00:22:40.730 --> 00:22:44.289 or bottom outskirts. But it needs to as long as it's secondary information. 328 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.519 It just depends on what ends up flowing best, for for the artwork itself. 329 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.559 And do you like you know, and maybe it's a preference thing or 330 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:56.000 maybe you've got some some more in depth thoughts on kind of putting presented by 331 00:22:56.200 --> 00:23:00.109 or brought to you by, or just the logo? What are your thoughts 332 00:23:00.150 --> 00:23:04.150 on that? Man, I think just the logo it's communicated. I know 333 00:23:04.269 --> 00:23:08.509 that there's some affiliation if I see a company's logo on there. So having 334 00:23:08.549 --> 00:23:12.700 additional words that tell me that just makes it busier and I think that can 335 00:23:12.740 --> 00:23:17.859 dilute the message like that makes a lot of sense. I want to close 336 00:23:17.980 --> 00:23:23.660 this down by talking about the identity that gets created, the brand identity that 337 00:23:23.740 --> 00:23:29.329 gets created. The cover art is really kind of the core of or the 338 00:23:29.609 --> 00:23:33.730 launching pad off of, because I've seen you do this now with multiple shows 339 00:23:33.210 --> 00:23:38.049 that we own, where you have the podcast cover art and then you end 340 00:23:38.089 --> 00:23:44.920 up building out a more indepth brand identity for the show that ends up shaping 341 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:48.839 what we post on social and all of this stuff that comes out of it. 342 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.119 That makes the other work that we're doing to repurpose the content from the 343 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:56.470 show so much easier. Can you talk to us about what should go into 344 00:23:56.269 --> 00:24:03.910 the brand standards, of the brand guidelines specifically related to a podcast? Yeah, 345 00:24:03.430 --> 00:24:07.269 so, you know, often times a podcast will be based on, 346 00:24:07.789 --> 00:24:12.539 you know, the creative for a podcast will be based on an existing brand 347 00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:19.220 guideline for a company. That doesn't mean that every single component of the company's 348 00:24:19.220 --> 00:24:26.490 existing brand has to be repeated in the every deliverable that's associated with the podcast. 349 00:24:26.890 --> 00:24:30.329 Oftentimes we will just use the same colors, will use some of the 350 00:24:30.369 --> 00:24:34.329 same typefaces and then we'll start to create a separate identity that builds off of 351 00:24:34.410 --> 00:24:38.279 the framework that the company's brand guidelines, you know, had already laid out 352 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:42.480 for us and then we're sort of taking this component of, you know, 353 00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:48.480 whatever that content entails, whatever the personality of the show is, we build 354 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:52.750 out identity that really lends itself back directly to the content. So it can 355 00:24:52.789 --> 00:24:57.710 be something somewhat separate from the company because, you know, the nature of 356 00:24:57.789 --> 00:25:03.509 a podcast it's just it's more conversational. Often it's more casual. You know, 357 00:25:03.630 --> 00:25:07.460 there are a lot of teaching points and things that you will want to 358 00:25:07.460 --> 00:25:10.740 share. There are going to be a lot of really helpful nuggets of information, 359 00:25:10.819 --> 00:25:18.539 a lot of opportunities to create micro content from longer conversations people you're interviewing 360 00:25:18.579 --> 00:25:22.769 on your show. And so the type of deliverables that you can take from 361 00:25:23.130 --> 00:25:29.130 podcast interviews are absolutely endless. We find new ones like every single day of 362 00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:30.170 like, oh my gosh, we could, you know we could do this 363 00:25:30.369 --> 00:25:33.170 based on the content that we're already to ha in. What are some of 364 00:25:33.250 --> 00:25:37.519 those deliverables? So, for one, I know it's we have multiple frames 365 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:41.920 for micro videos where, you know, for me to be growth, we 366 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:45.160 have I think five or six of them that different frames you can use for 367 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:48.680 micro videos. But what are, you know, some quote, some quote 368 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:55.470 images that we use or used on Instagram, some linkedin deck templates that we 369 00:25:55.789 --> 00:25:59.549 are starting to build as we're putting out more linked index what are some other 370 00:25:59.630 --> 00:26:06.180 deliverables that come off of the identity that you create for a podcast? Yeah, 371 00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:08.420 you need some good ones there, and those really the deliverables, are 372 00:26:08.500 --> 00:26:12.859 where you can get more specific. So whatever the messages that you're really itching 373 00:26:14.019 --> 00:26:17.259 to bring across the line, you don't have to worry about doing that on 374 00:26:17.380 --> 00:26:19.569 your cover art because your your show should contain a lot of really, really 375 00:26:19.609 --> 00:26:22.130 helpful things and that's always going to be evolving. So you don't want your 376 00:26:22.170 --> 00:26:27.289 cover art to be focused on something that's still specific that it'll end up becoming 377 00:26:27.329 --> 00:26:33.599 obsolete and your show likely will continue to grow in and have its own you 378 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.400 know, you start off with one idea and then a lot of times things 379 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:40.880 just sort of take on an identity of their own. They go in a 380 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:44.359 different direction where it's like man, we came here wanting to solve this problem 381 00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:47.309 and now, like, we found so much more success being able to have 382 00:26:47.430 --> 00:26:51.390 these kinds of conversations. So if you if you have something berstile enough in 383 00:26:51.470 --> 00:26:55.630 your cover art that that gives you an opportunity to get more specific in your 384 00:26:55.670 --> 00:27:00.789 deliverables. That really man, not just like a superpower, because your deliverables 385 00:27:00.829 --> 00:27:04.660 you can always keep updating. Like you mentioned linkedin decks, the slider decks, 386 00:27:06.099 --> 00:27:11.579 those and the the yeah, instagram stories, and also the the sliding 387 00:27:11.259 --> 00:27:15.970 decks on on Instagram, like those seamless decks that look like a panoramic. 388 00:27:15.490 --> 00:27:19.130 We started doing more with audiograms. You have to think about you know, 389 00:27:19.690 --> 00:27:25.410 people consume content differently. So some people are more active on instagram and some 390 00:27:25.569 --> 00:27:27.410 aren't. But the person that's not going to be super active on Instagram, 391 00:27:27.490 --> 00:27:30.160 you know, maybe they'll be scrolling on linkedin and they might not watch a 392 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:34.279 full video, but they'll hit play on an audiogram which plays like a video, 393 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:38.640 listen to the content, maybe read along with the subtitles while they're multitasking 394 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.430 and just see, you know, even you know, emailable things like P 395 00:27:44.869 --> 00:27:48.230 I've gotten like PDS links to all sorts of different things. It's just like 396 00:27:48.309 --> 00:27:51.710 a little like a recap of a certain part of it, whether it's a 397 00:27:51.910 --> 00:27:55.390 quote graphic. We do a ton of like quote graphics, Episode Graphics. 398 00:27:55.910 --> 00:27:59.859 Quote graphics to me are the most intriguing because if you take a little you 399 00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:03.059 know you mentioned a quote from something can be one of the most interesting quotes 400 00:28:03.099 --> 00:28:06.299 in the episode and it intrigues me and then I look and maybe on that 401 00:28:06.460 --> 00:28:10.980 same quote graphic I'll see you know who the person is and I might I 402 00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:12.970 might be intrigued by that if I know who they are. If not, 403 00:28:14.130 --> 00:28:17.930 then I you know, I look at with the episode title is. You 404 00:28:18.089 --> 00:28:21.490 have my attention. The more attention you can grab in a very beginning with 405 00:28:21.650 --> 00:28:26.170 whatever deliverable you end up using, the more of my attention that you'll continue 406 00:28:26.210 --> 00:28:27.400 to have. So if you if you grab my attention. So I'm going 407 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:30.799 to look at WHO's who's on the show and I'm going to look at what 408 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.640 the name of the show is and unlikely going to listen at least to you 409 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:37.640 know, to kind of see what the main takeaways are. And really, 410 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:42.349 once you start producing valuable content and you're consistent with your deliverables, you kind 411 00:28:42.390 --> 00:28:47.390 of figure out like what's your audience prefers and what's successful for you. You 412 00:28:48.269 --> 00:28:52.470 know, that's where you that consistency is where you start to get subscribers and 413 00:28:52.390 --> 00:28:56.299 just people kind of checking back to see like who what's you know, what 414 00:28:56.339 --> 00:29:00.500 quote did they post today or even you know, you have your guests reposting 415 00:29:00.579 --> 00:29:03.980 things, anything that it that makes a guess look really good, and a 416 00:29:04.099 --> 00:29:07.460 lot of times that means they may have to provide you with a good photo, 417 00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:11.569 which can be tricky. But anything that makes your guests look really good, 418 00:29:11.690 --> 00:29:15.450 they're going to want to share that. So if they're active on Linkedin 419 00:29:15.529 --> 00:29:18.250 or if they're more active on a different social media outlet, getting something that 420 00:29:18.490 --> 00:29:22.250 that's optimized for them to use in that space. One thing that I didn't 421 00:29:22.250 --> 00:29:25.839 mention. I should have probably brought this up at the you know, towards 422 00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:29.720 the beginning, but something that I've heard you and emily talk about a lot. 423 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:33.400 Are you know the importance of mood boards? Do you want to and 424 00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:37.319 I know using like Pinterest to find inspiration? For those folks listening, maybe 425 00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:40.230 they're trying to do their own cover art, they want to do it in 426 00:29:40.349 --> 00:29:42.829 house. Could you speak to how you guys lever Itch mood boards, how 427 00:29:42.829 --> 00:29:47.950 you put one together and kind of some different places that you go for inspiration 428 00:29:48.109 --> 00:29:52.470 to put those mood boards together? Yeah, and inspiration can be found anywhere. 429 00:29:52.509 --> 00:29:57.140 I when I start gathering inspiration for a project, I typically won't start 430 00:29:57.180 --> 00:30:00.099 if I'm creating cover art, I'm not going to look at cover art because 431 00:30:00.220 --> 00:30:03.500 otherwise I'm going to just get fixated on something and it's going to be really 432 00:30:03.539 --> 00:30:10.049 difficult to not just recreate what you've seen. So I'll start looking at other 433 00:30:10.690 --> 00:30:15.450 design work, you know, or color schemes. You know, I'll start 434 00:30:15.529 --> 00:30:18.210 somewhere else or there are a ton of different places you can look through, 435 00:30:18.769 --> 00:30:25.400 but I all start somewhere like dribble. It's DRIBBB Ellie. I'll go somewhere 436 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:30.039 like that and out or design inspiration, and I'll type in, you know, 437 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:36.309 something that describes a characteristic that I'm wanting to go for in this esthetic. 438 00:30:36.509 --> 00:30:41.309 So something like fresh. I'll type in fun or fresh or smart and 439 00:30:41.430 --> 00:30:44.109 somewhere like that, and I'll just start kind of like Oh yeah, you 440 00:30:44.230 --> 00:30:47.390 know this. For whatever reason, whether it's like, you know, the 441 00:30:47.789 --> 00:30:52.740 Color Palette really works and communicates that, or like this style of illustration, 442 00:30:52.140 --> 00:30:57.779 the expression on this person's face, a mood board really helps keep because there 443 00:30:57.819 --> 00:31:03.819 are so many possibilities with deliverables. What the mood board does is it kind 444 00:31:03.859 --> 00:31:07.130 of gives you a fense of like, okay, you know, I'm working 445 00:31:07.170 --> 00:31:10.890 on a brand identity for this. We're going for something like things that fit 446 00:31:10.970 --> 00:31:15.170 into this maybe are like summer camp, Sandlot, the movie, you know, 447 00:31:15.369 --> 00:31:19.720 brush lettering, this certain kind of retroe color scheme, and you're wanting 448 00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:26.119 to like to basically identify that kind of framework and then, once you get 449 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:27.960 a mood board, you feel like, yeah, all of these things really 450 00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:33.589 vibe with the esthetic that I'm going for with the show. It'll help you 451 00:31:33.789 --> 00:31:37.470 determine whether or not other deliverables that you're wanting to add or other components that 452 00:31:37.589 --> 00:31:41.230 you're wanting to add to your brand identity and to that system. It'll help 453 00:31:41.269 --> 00:31:45.589 you determine whether or not it's own brand, because it'll be like a which 454 00:31:45.670 --> 00:31:48.339 of these does not belong, kind of a situation where you can compare what 455 00:31:48.460 --> 00:31:52.460 you have to what you've said. This is, this is what I want 456 00:31:52.500 --> 00:31:55.980 to communicate, this is how I want to come across, and it'll just 457 00:31:56.059 --> 00:32:00.099 be kind of a little sounding board of whether or not something will work with 458 00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:02.250 your show or whether it's going to dilute your message. I love it, 459 00:32:02.650 --> 00:32:07.130 Kelsis, has been incredibly helpful for me, just hearing how your brain works 460 00:32:07.250 --> 00:32:10.369 around this stuff. Is there anything in particular that we may haven't touched on, 461 00:32:10.529 --> 00:32:15.569 but you think would be really helpful for someone who is embarking on this. 462 00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:17.319 They've decided to start a podcast. They want to make sure they nail 463 00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:20.960 their cover. Are Anything we didn't cover that you'd want them to know? 464 00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:24.640 HMM, you know, I would just say we talked through a lot of 465 00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:28.559 really good stuff, so I think I think we've covered the basics. But 466 00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:31.670 I would say another thing that can be helpful to do is is search what 467 00:32:31.789 --> 00:32:37.470 you think someone who would find your show would be searching, see what already 468 00:32:37.509 --> 00:32:43.549 exists and just make sure that the direction you're going creatively, that there's something 469 00:32:43.589 --> 00:32:47.339 about where you end up going with your design that is different and that stands 470 00:32:47.380 --> 00:32:51.940 out amongst, you know, everything else that you're going to be featured around. 471 00:32:52.420 --> 00:32:53.819 Thanks a lot of sense to me, Kelsey. Thank you so much. 472 00:32:53.859 --> 00:32:58.650 How can folks listening to this stay connected with you? You can find 473 00:32:58.730 --> 00:33:04.369 me on Linkedin. I'm also on on instagram and you can email me at 474 00:33:04.369 --> 00:33:10.250 Kelsey Montgomery at sweet fish Mediacom. Kelsey is K L S ie dot montgomery 475 00:33:10.369 --> 00:33:15.799 at streetfish mediacom and then obviously she's she's the same on Linkedin and, as 476 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:20.759 it Kelsey Monty on instagram. It is yeah, Mrs Kelsey, Monty, 477 00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:24.440 all one word. Love it, all right. Just remember ie not Eui, 478 00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:30.549 and you will find. You will find Kelsey on all the socials. 479 00:33:30.750 --> 00:33:32.109 Thank you so much for listening. We hope you got a ton of value 480 00:33:32.150 --> 00:33:38.990 out of this and thanks a lot. I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask 481 00:33:39.029 --> 00:33:43.500 their listeners for reviews, but I get why they do it, because reviews 482 00:33:43.539 --> 00:33:46.339 are enormously helpful when you're trying to grow a podcast audience. So here's what 483 00:33:46.380 --> 00:33:50.259 we decided to do. If you leave a review for me to be growth 484 00:33:50.299 --> 00:33:54.019 in apple podcasts and email me a screenshot of the review to James At sweetfish 485 00:33:54.059 --> 00:33:58.890 Mediacom, I'll send you a signed copy of my new book, content based 486 00:33:58.930 --> 00:34:01.569 networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. We get 487 00:34:01.609 --> 00:34:05.130 a review, you get a free book. We both win.