Transcript
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Welcome back to be tob growth.
I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media.
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Today is another episode in our how
to podcast series. We have been a
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little bit lack and adding some new
content here. We've been doing some other
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things to answer some questions. Today
we're going to be talking about dispelling the
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myth that getting a big name,
getting that one thought leader, is really
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gonna Change Your audience growth. I
am joined today by our founder and CEO,
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James Carvery. James, I doing
today, man, I'm fantastic and
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this is something I hear all the
time. Logan, you were just talking
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to a customer of ours that that
brought this up. It typically comes from
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Pr. So if you're if you're
a marketer listening to this this question,
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most often, especially in larger organizations, you end up having pr step into
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the podcast process and they don't know
look and when they typically step in as
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it is, it usually kind of
in the final hours, right before you're
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about to launch, but definitely happened
to a tim or two. Sometimes it's
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earlier on. It depends on that
relationship between marketing and PR and the organ
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structure in the relationship, all that
sort of stuff. But we've definitely seen
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like, okay, marketing has the
content plan and maybe even has identified some
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guests. Were just said Hey,
we want to talk about these and as
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long as someone fits this persona,
then you know that's that's going to fit
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in there, whereas pr wants things
to be usually a little bit more mapped
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out and and want some bigger names
typically included in that plan of who you're
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going to have them podcast for sure. Yeah, yeah, so we wanted
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to dispel some of these myths.
If anything, you know, you can
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send this episode to your PR folks
and have them have them here from us.
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I mean we've done this for a
hundred plus companies. We've produced thousands
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of podcast episodes. We've got lots
of data. We're seeing data on download
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numbers for all of our customer shows. So we're not just spouting kind of
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our personal opinion. We're seeing that
the difference of having a big name does
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not actually result in what you think. It probably results in a quick story
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for us. For those listening that
are familiar with Gary V, which I
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don't know how you can be in
marketing or in any sort of marketing girl
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and not know who Gary V is. But if you don't. He owns
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a massive AD agency in New York
City and is probably the most wellknown entrepreneur
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in the world today. I would
say maybe that that maybe next, slightly
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below Elon Musk, but regardless,
we had Gary V on Bob Growth few
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years ago. I think it was
actually almost it was just over three years
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ago from the day that we're recording
this. I got to interview him for
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a virtual summit that we were doing
with some other partners and we repurpose the
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episode on B Tob Growth. We've
also had Simon Senek, the guy that
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did the Ted talk about start with
why. He wrote a book called start
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with why, and both of those
episodes were two of our least downloaded episodes
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in bb growth. We've done over
sixteen hundred episodes at this point and when
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we look at download numbers for the
Gary v Episode in the Simon Senek episode,
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you would think that those episodes would
have a massive draw, but it
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the reality is they didn't and they
were some of our some of our lower
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downloaded episodes. So I want to
I want to jam on why that is
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and kind of what Logan and eyes
thinking is around this, because man,
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there's just a lot of opportunity in
talking to practitioners and talking to folks that
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are actually doing the job of the
people that you're trying to serve with your
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product or service. And so look
and what are your initial thoughts on this
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idea? Yeah, and one piece
of context I think I want to add
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is that, like, we're not
just picking on PR here. I had
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a conversation with a marketing leader the
other day. They are a hundred and
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forty episodes into their podcast and they
interview practitioners in the sales space in a
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few different vertical markets that they serve, and then also kind of some sales
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thought leaders, some some authors and
bigger names in the sales space, and
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we were talking he was saying,
Hey, we need to get a more
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steady stream of that. You know, you guys have had gry V and
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Simon Senec on on your podcast and
I share the exact story that you just
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you just talked about now. You
wrote about that interview with Gary V and
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in your book and content based networking. It was awesome experience. Some good
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relationships came out of that scenario as
well, but it didn't change the trajectory
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of our downloads in our reach on
bb growth, and I think that's the
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myth that a lot of people are
buying into, both from the marketing and
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the PR side. I think the
first thing you've got to think about is
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the value for that that big name, and then also the value for the
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listener. So let's talk about the
first one, the value for that big
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name. Now we had one customer
where Gary v was on his podcast and
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he kind of went he had his
team go all in on promoting that episode,
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but he mentioned like Hey, there's
an opportunity here, I'm going to
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do something cool. It was it
was like because it came out of the
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conversation that they ended up having.
But think about Gary V, for example,
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how many other podcasts he's on on
a regular basis, other shows,
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other appearances and all of the content
that his team is pushing out. It's
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no fault on gear aid, but
there's no there's no incentive or there's no
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mechanism for them to heavily promote every
everything that they do in every other media
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entity that they appear on. And
so that's the one side of it and
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then we'll get into the listeners.
Do you want to add something to that
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before we go to the next apartment. Yeah, I think you've got to
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be realistic. If your shill is
getting two hundred downloads an episode, you
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can't expect to get somebody that is
accustomed to being able to reach thousands and
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thousands of people at a moment's notice. And so thinking through the what value
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can I offer to the guest is
really important. But what I what I
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really want to hammer hammer in on
is that, like, I wrote an
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email while back. It was called
and the subject line was stop chasing influencers,
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and we outlined this story of like, Hey, we've interviewed some big
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names and our downloads did not skyrocket, and a lot of that's because of
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how discoverability works within within podcast platforms. It's not like a news feed algorithm
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where stuff is popping up in your
in your feed that you're not subscribe to.
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You subscribe to a show because you
saw promotion happen on social or you
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heard somebody mentioned that they had a
podcast on another podcast that you listen to,
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or a friend of your said,
Hey, you got to check out
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this podcast, and so you've got
to think about how are people finding your
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show and if your show is hyper
relevant to a very specific persona, people
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are likely going to talk about that
show. So you should spend way more
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time thinking about how you're branding and
positioning your show. Then you should think
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about trying to get massive names on
your show because, I mean, spoiler
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alert, every every big show,
every show, tries to go after these
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influencers and it kind of dilutes the
influencers message. When I like, I
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know when a particular author just released
a book because they're on seventy four different
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podcast that doesn't make your show stand
out and it doesn't make your show unique
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that you're one of the seventy four
Brazilian podcast that this author went and did
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an interview for. It might be
good content, it might be relevant to
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your audience, it might not be, but I just from my perspective and
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from the experience that we've seen,
we have not seen an increased number of
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downloads by having these these big names. Now to you, you made a
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point offline logan of you know,
if you do have a big name,
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we're not saying don't interview anybody big
on your show, that that should not
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I don't think that should be the
focus of it. Like, for example,
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there was a there's a friend of
mine whose podcast I hadn't listened to
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in a while and he interviewed a
big name recently and posted about it on
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Linkedin. I saw it in my
feet and I was like, oh,
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that sounds interesting, I'll go and
check out that episode, and I ended
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up going and downloading a few other
episodes while I was there. So in
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that case he did use the big
name that he had on his show as
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the tip of the sphere to re
engage me, who is a former listener,
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to go and listen to more of
his episodes. So it can work,
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but it does not mean that every
episode of your show needs to be
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this, you know massive, name
it. One it's not sustainable and to
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it's just not as effective as you
think it is. Yeah, there's two
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things I want to touch on there. One, it's not sustainable, like
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like you just said, but also, if you're going to do it,
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set your expectations and set yourself up
for success. So you talked about just
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like thinking about the daily routine and
and how consumption happens in podcasting. When
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I'm scrolling through a feed of you
know, hey, here's my upnext downloaded
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episodes. I got one from John
Barrows. I got one from the sales
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engagement podcast. I got one from
Donald Miller building a story brand. I'm
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looking at the headlines. I'm not
scrolling through that. Now maybe I'm I'm
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the minority, but I'm going to
go out on the limb and say that
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I don't think that I am.
People are looking for the headline. I
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pulled our our audience on linked in
a while back. How many people read
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show notes to like decide are they
going to consume the episode? It was
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a very small portion. Most people
are going into show notes to maybe follow
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up with the guest or find a
resource that was mentioned, something like that.
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So if you are going to have
a big name on, don't think
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that hey, that big name now
shows up in my podcast feed and downloads
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are going to skyrocket, because it
doesn't really change anything. Someone's either going
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to click on that or not.
They might share it. What you need
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to do, though, is connect
that to social and talk about what is
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the content that they shared. If
I interviewed this author and I ask them
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a different question, which again goes
to interview prep and as a different conversation,
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how are you going to draw some
different sort of content perspective or story
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out of that big name, that
author, that thought leader or influencer?
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And then how is your team going
to throw extra promotion behind that episode to
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make it intriguing for that person who's
maybe not engaged or doesn't know about your
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show and isn't subscribed? And also, how can you make it really easy
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for that guest to promote their show? Can you create some content for them
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to be able to easily share some
some graphics? Can you, you know,
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send two or three follow up emails
to multiple people on their team with
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links to make it very easy for
them to share? Don't assume, practitioner
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or thought leader, that your guest
is going to share their episode that we're
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all human. We take the path
of least resistance, so make it easy.
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The other thing, you know,
we talked about, okay, value
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for you as the podcaster, value
for the guest. The other thing I
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think we got to touch on here
is the value for the listener. And
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this a little bit of a tangent, a little bit of a rabbit trail,
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but this story kind of came to
mind is you and I were talking
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about the subject I was listening to. I forget his name. He plays
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the character hopper on stranger things.
Now, unless your heads been under a
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rock, you probably know what stranger
things is. If you haven't watched that,
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you should anyway. Great Show Hopper. He's a he's a cop.
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It's got some drinking problems. You
little rough around the edges and small town
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in Iowa. Know it's Indiana,
right, and stranger things anyway, small
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town cop. And he was doing
this interview talking about the very first scene
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with him on stranger things. He's
shirt off in his trailer, small town
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in Indiana, and he was like
man, I was prepping for this and
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I was like I got to get
ripped. I can't have my first scene
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have this great six pack and not
have this great six pack. And then
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he thought, well, that's not
really relatable. That's part of what stranger
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things is like, the nostalgia and
the relatability of the characters and small town
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America. That's that's drawing people in
and hooking them. Now the aliens and
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all sorts of other stuff is it's
cool too. But his point there that
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I think is relevant to this conversation
is, you know, you were talking
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about some podcasts that you've listened to
that are all interviewing these massive successes and
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they're not as relatable for you when
you're listening to other podcasts where they're interviewing
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CEOS and founders of companies that are
at our stage, where you can learn
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more from things that are fresh in
their mind what they're going through, just
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like you would with, you know, an agency, peer group or a
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mastermind that you're part of. And
so the relatability factor, I think,
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is important to think about as well. I get feedback on our show all
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the time because we're often interviewing VPI's
of marketing who are in the trenches at
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growing companies, some established in a
lot of brands you've never heard of,
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and I hear listeners say, you
know, they get a ton of value
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from those episodes. So, whether
it's a thought leader or a practitioner,
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and you know, we all know
there's pray area in between. It's not
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like they come with labels on their
hats. But it's about the content and
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it's about what are you pulling out, how are you helping them promote and
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how are you making the content actionable
for your listeners? That's going to carry
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the day. Yeah, when,
when the content is actionable, that's what
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I found. The difference between,
you know, the authors and thought leaders
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that write books, and this is
coming from a guy who's written a book
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like I've, I want to be
on podcasts talking about the message from the
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book because I want to I want
to promote the book I think. I
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think the ideas in the book are
a game changer and I would hope that
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people want to have me on their
show. But they should not only be
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focused on people that have written books. There are practitioners that have incredibly thoughtful
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ideas and tactics and strategies that they've
deployed. And we're talking specifically about business
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podcasts here. That's for context.
All of our hundred plus podcasts are business
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podcast we're working specifically with BTB companies
in a variety of industries. And if
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you can if you can pull out
practical, tangible, actionable content from your
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guest, regardless of whether they are
a thought leader and they wrote a book
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on it or they just stumbled on
this experiment with their team three weeks ago
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and they saw incredible results from doing
something crazy with their chatbot or figuring out
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they just went through a repositioning of
their brand and they've figured out how to.
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We're all within their marketing messaging that
they needed to inject this new kind
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of repositioning or brand statement like that
content is going to be far more helpful
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than something Gary v could tell you. That he said, you know,
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a million times before on his youtube
channel and all the other places where people
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consume Gary v. So don't discount
the value that a practitioner can add to
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your listener. We've just seen it
over and over and over again that there's
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tremendous value to be had in learning
from your peers and people are hungry for
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that. They want to they want
to learn from people that are in the
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trenches and a lot of people honestly
kind of disrespect the thought leaders and authors
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because they get so much play and
they get so they get lifted on these
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pedestals. I hear people all the
time that say things like I'd rather not
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hear from a sales trainer that hasn't
sold anything in thirty years. I'd rather
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actually hear from someone who sold something
in the last decade. Now that's in
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a sales context, but I've heard
similar things of like you know, I
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would much rather hear from somebody who's
actually in the trenches and doing this work,
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then somebody who just wrote a book
about it based on something that they
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did, you know, fourteen years
ago, and and that's that's real.
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I mean that that's the sentiment that
I get from a lot of the people
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that we talked to that listen to
the show. Yeah, absolutely. I
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mean one of the greatest episodes that
like drew me into be to be growth
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as a listener was one you did
with our boy g Gaetano, when he
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was at salesacker. Talked about the
user generated content strategy, the results that
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it drove for them from an SEO
perspective, and it broke it down right
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and you and he walks through this
is what we did here, this is
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what we stopped doing, and you
and I recorded an episode about, I
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think about fifteen audience growth strategies,
and one of the things we were talking
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about is people are looking for things
to do and to start doing and to
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stop doing. And I have a
lot of guests on BB growth that he
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sometimes we let them kind of come
to us with their area of expertise or
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passion. Right now, what do
you want to talk about? And then
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we kind of coach them through what's
going to make a good episode and I
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get a lot of let's talk about
being more human in your marketing, where
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the power of digital is way too
high level. And what I tell guess
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is, you know, it may
seem like Oh, that's going to be
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valuable because it's like up here thirtyzero
foot view, and when I say,
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like, what's that tweet? Three
tweeks you made to all your landing pages
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in the last thirty days, they're
like, well, that's that's really in
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the weeds. That's the nitty gritty. I'm like, in the weeds is
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where people get value. It feels
counterintuitive to a lot of people, but
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I can tell you I've been hosting
a daily show for the last two years
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almost now, and I've heard a
lot of people as guests on the show
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and the more granular they get in, the more actionable they have something to
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share, the more we get feedback
and the more you know, when I
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post that content on Linkedin, that
I get more engagement as opposed to the
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good reminders, and so I think
that points to the value that practitioners can
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bring to your show, but also
the way you, as a host,
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can better deliver value to your listeners
about who you're interviewing. That we're not
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saying you can't get tactical stuff.
I've gotten tactical stuff from Gary B but
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don't just expect like hey, the
big names coming and they're going to say,
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they're going to say stuff and downloads
are Goin to sky. wrote.
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Yeah, don't. Don't expect the
big name to come and bring their audience
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with them. That's not how it
works and podcasting. That maybe how it
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works in other platforms and if you
maybe, if you do a collaboration on
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instagram or a twitter, I don't
know how the algorithms for all of those
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work. But but within podcasting,
Gary these audience does it come with him
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to our feed. It's very hard
to pull people that subscribe to Gary Be's
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podcast and bring them over to our
podcast unless we actually get onto his show
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and talk are and are able to
talk about what we do. And if
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you listen to any of Gary V's
or any of these big names like,
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they don't do that. That's not
something it's not really an achievable goal for
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you to go after. So instead
get more serious about honing in on who
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is the specific persona that our content
is going to add enormous value tobe and
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then let's let's not only try to
add value to them as a listener,
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but let's go after their peers and
get their peers to be a guest on
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our show so that our listener can
hear from their peers and people that are
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in the trenches with them. Those
folks are a lot easier to get on
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your show. The content, honestly, I think, is equally as good.
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That's not to downplay, or did
discount the value of the content from
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the big names, but it's going
to allow you to have a much more
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consistent show with great quality content.
You just have to stop thinking that influencers
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are the only people with good content
to share. Yeah, absolutely, and
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they're not the only path to audience
growth. Will link in this episode too,
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Blond Post that we've been working on
to just get all of the things
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out of our collective brain here at
sweetish on the different things we've tried.
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We've seen work when it comes to
audience growth, so will link to that
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in the show notes. If you're
not used to seeing us on camera,
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something new we're doing is we've recently
launched the BB Growth Youtube Channel. So
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you can still hear us every single
day here on BB growth in whatever cast
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aff here used to listening, but
will also link to the Youtube Channel if
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you want to see our faces,
see us get a little bit riled up.
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James and I can get a little
bit passionate about dispelling some of these
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common myths when it comes to podcasting. So we got a little bit fired
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up today. I think it at
least for me, James. If anybody
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listening to this is not yet connected
with you, it's the best way a
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man. So linkedin is really the
best place for folks to connect with me.
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James Carberry Sea Arba or why?
Email is james at sweet fish Mediacom.
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Would love to connect with anybody and
everybody. Same for me. Just
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look me up on Linkedin. Last
name is l y Elies, or shoot
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me an email logan and sweetfish mediacom
and connect with us on Linkedin. We're
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trying to share as much content there, as well as the podcast and the
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new youtube channel. As always,
however you find this content, we hope
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it's useful and thank you so much
for listening. I hate it when podcasts
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incessantly ask their listeners for reviews,
but I get why they do it,
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because reviews are enormously helpful when you're
trying to grow a podcast audience. So
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00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.400
here's what we decided to do.
If you leave a review for me to
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00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:07.750
be growth in apple podcasts and email
me a screenshot of the review to James
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00:21:07.789 --> 00:21:11.630
at Sweetish Mediacom, I'll send you
a signed copy of my new book,
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00:21:11.630 --> 00:21:15.309
content based networking, how to instantly
connect with anyone you want to know.
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We get a review, you get
a free book. We both win.