How We're Rethinking PPC and Retargeting at Sweet Fish

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.340 --> 00:00:08.540 Welcome back to BB Growth. My name is James Carberry and the founder of Soup, 2 00:00:08.540 --> 00:00:13.480 Fish Media. And I'm joined today by the genius that we hired about eight months 3 00:00:13.480 --> 00:00:18.200 ago. Dan Sanchez, our director of audience growth. And, uh, we just did 4 00:00:18.200 --> 00:00:22.550 an episode about Sweet Fishes. Sixth birthday. We turned six years old 5 00:00:22.550 --> 00:00:28.530 yesterday, and we're six years in and have not had to touch paid media. We 6 00:00:28.530 --> 00:00:31.390 talked about that a little bit in yesterday's episode, our birthday 7 00:00:31.390 --> 00:00:35.590 episode, because we've executed content based networking. We've executed a lot 8 00:00:35.590 --> 00:00:40.150 of organic channels really well, and very fortunately, we haven't had to do 9 00:00:40.150 --> 00:00:43.670 paid media. But we're getting at a point now. We're at a scale now where 10 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:48.820 paid media is something that we're going to start doing to further explode 11 00:00:48.820 --> 00:00:53.550 our own growth as a company and wanted to chat with Dan about what that looks 12 00:00:53.550 --> 00:00:57.370 like. So we first want to talk about the timing, right? Like in our story 13 00:00:57.380 --> 00:01:01.280 where bootstrapped business. So this is not to say that every company should 14 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:05.290 wait six years before they start paid media, but in our context, you know, 15 00:01:05.290 --> 00:01:10.730 private company owned solely by me, no outside investors nothing like that. 16 00:01:10.730 --> 00:01:15.070 I'm not dealing with a board or a venture capital firm, and so I don't 17 00:01:15.070 --> 00:01:19.400 have demands to hit certain growth. Metrics obviously wanted to build a 18 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:22.900 profitable business as quickly as I could, But in the context of me in our 19 00:01:22.900 --> 00:01:27.120 situation, I was really feeling bad because we hired you knowing that paid 20 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:30.350 media was something we wanted to dio. But the conversation I had with you a 21 00:01:30.350 --> 00:01:33.370 few months ago is man like, I feel like I've missed all this opportunity these 22 00:01:33.370 --> 00:01:38.300 last five years of not doing paid media, and you really set my heart at ease 23 00:01:38.310 --> 00:01:42.300 with your response. Let's talk about kind of what your explanation was for, 24 00:01:42.300 --> 00:01:45.170 really? You know, saying James, Well, it was okay that you haven't done paid 25 00:01:45.170 --> 00:01:48.170 media yet. You're actually right where you should be talked to us about that. 26 00:01:48.740 --> 00:01:52.040 It really takes an understanding of like how startups work and knowing that, 27 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:56.270 like if you don't have product market fit, if your product isn't quite at a 28 00:01:56.270 --> 00:02:00.150 place where it's like really resonating with customers, there's really no need 29 00:02:00.150 --> 00:02:03.850 to pour gasoline on the fire because your fire is not can't handle it. You 30 00:02:03.850 --> 00:02:07.610 got some sparks going, and maybe unless this analogy breaks down because if you 31 00:02:07.610 --> 00:02:12.560 threw gasoline on some parks, it would blow up. But like this guy is like, you 32 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:15.360 really have to have something substantial before you try to scale it. 33 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:19.240 And you really have toe know your audience know exactly who you're 34 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:23.490 targeting? No, that they respond to it. So you've presented it to enough people 35 00:02:23.490 --> 00:02:26.330 that, you know, when they kind of their ears perk up and they know they're 36 00:02:26.330 --> 00:02:29.250 they're interested in that. You have to know you have a market in order to go 37 00:02:29.250 --> 00:02:32.770 out. Otherwise, you're just gonna bleed yourself to death. And you're not gonna 38 00:02:32.770 --> 00:02:37.640 know exactly if it's the ads or if it's the product. And there's one thing I 39 00:02:37.640 --> 00:02:42.760 hate most as a marketer. It's trying to advertise crappy products. My goodness, 40 00:02:42.770 --> 00:02:46.670 I mean, every marketer hates that. And you're like, the people are blaming you 41 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.180 as if you're the problem as the marketer and it's like no, like you 42 00:02:50.180 --> 00:02:52.740 just launched a new product that you didn't even ask our customers that they 43 00:02:52.740 --> 00:02:56.760 wanted it. But I'm the marketer, so I'm in charge of putting it out there. 44 00:02:56.940 --> 00:03:00.100 Congratulations and I have to get a waste. All your money on this ad spend 45 00:03:00.100 --> 00:03:03.950 for a product that nobody wants in terms of timing. As as people are 46 00:03:03.950 --> 00:03:07.800 thinking, maybe they're like, Okay, maybe we're ready for paid media. How 47 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:12.760 would you assess whether a company in some different context, maybe not 48 00:03:12.760 --> 00:03:17.110 specifically our context? How would you assess whether companies ready to start 49 00:03:17.110 --> 00:03:21.470 diving into paid media roughly like if I'm just going to throw something out 50 00:03:21.470 --> 00:03:25.160 there if you're If you're a startup and you're expecting to be, ah, high growth 51 00:03:25.160 --> 00:03:29.370 start up so usually like B to B companies are tech companies, or in 52 00:03:29.370 --> 00:03:33.570 this kind of frame of mind, you have to kind of get there through sales. First, 53 00:03:33.570 --> 00:03:35.880 you have to be able to sell it and get in front of people. Luckily, through 54 00:03:35.880 --> 00:03:39.390 your model, you know you're getting in front of people through podcasting. So 55 00:03:39.390 --> 00:03:42.380 for most people, you want to be able to get quite a few sales and to be able to 56 00:03:42.380 --> 00:03:45.510 sell it like it starts to get easier and easier to where you kind of know 57 00:03:45.510 --> 00:03:50.020 the messaging down. That's vital 11 You're still honing the message with 58 00:03:50.020 --> 00:03:53.760 the sale, and you're still trying to figure out who your ideal buyer is. We 59 00:03:53.760 --> 00:03:57.980 talked in the last episode James and I just did about the history of sweet 60 00:03:57.980 --> 00:04:00.770 fish and how this podcast got started. But he was trying to sell the sales 61 00:04:00.770 --> 00:04:03.920 people over and over again before we found out that sales people don't buy 62 00:04:03.920 --> 00:04:07.380 podcasting services. Marketers dio. That was one of those things where if 63 00:04:07.380 --> 00:04:11.800 you had a gun and spent, like, tens of thousands of dollars advertising's of 64 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:15.580 VPs of sales, it would have been such a waste of money, Right? So you kinda 65 00:04:15.580 --> 00:04:18.700 have to get to that point where you know you have your market right, and 66 00:04:18.700 --> 00:04:22.910 you've known that for a while. Um, but you were able to get on the grow on the 67 00:04:22.910 --> 00:04:26.890 back of organic before you need to do paid media. The other section is, so 68 00:04:26.890 --> 00:04:31.170 you have your you know your target market is, and you've done it and 69 00:04:31.170 --> 00:04:35.090 proved it over and over again through actual revenue. But the other part is, 70 00:04:35.100 --> 00:04:39.070 are you have enough margin? Do you have enough money left over in orderto have 71 00:04:39.070 --> 00:04:43.990 an actual sizable ad budget, which to me is a couple of 1000 bucks a month. 72 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:47.190 Unless you already have, like, a really good track record of knowing how to 73 00:04:47.190 --> 00:04:51.070 spend money on ads. You're gonna burn through it a little too fast, and it 74 00:04:51.070 --> 00:04:54.890 actually takes, like, a month or two just to figure out how to even spend it 75 00:04:54.890 --> 00:04:58.900 correctly to start seeing somewhat of an r. O. I may be like the first couple 76 00:04:58.900 --> 00:05:04.050 months of spend. The 1st 5 $10,000 is more like market research more than it 77 00:05:04.050 --> 00:05:07.280 is gonna be something that's gonna give you an R. O I. So you kinda have to be 78 00:05:07.280 --> 00:05:10.830 ready to take that hit and either hire someone to do it, which is expensive. 79 00:05:10.840 --> 00:05:14.100 Outsource it or build the chops yourself, which is just gonna take you 80 00:05:14.100 --> 00:05:17.820 longer in order to get to R A. Y. If you have to make all the mistakes. So 81 00:05:17.830 --> 00:05:20.650 that's quite a few variables. That's a lot of margin you need in order for it 82 00:05:20.650 --> 00:05:25.450 to become profitable. It's definitely something that requires I think this is 83 00:05:25.450 --> 00:05:28.870 gonna be really helpful for people because I think it requires context and 84 00:05:28.870 --> 00:05:32.710 it requires understanding of where you're at in the business what the 85 00:05:32.710 --> 00:05:35.470 business has done before you join the team. If if you're listening to this 86 00:05:35.470 --> 00:05:38.430 and you're a marketer at a new early stage company, what have they tried in 87 00:05:38.430 --> 00:05:41.960 the past there? There's a lot of different variables that go into 88 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:46.650 nailing down. Is paid media the right next step for us? But let's assume that 89 00:05:46.650 --> 00:05:50.280 it is. Let's assume the folks listening to this. They're at a point where 90 00:05:50.280 --> 00:05:55.000 they're like, Yes, we are at a point where we need to start doing paid media. 91 00:05:55.010 --> 00:05:58.870 Next. I want to talk about platforms and And how do you assess platforms? 92 00:05:58.870 --> 00:06:02.360 Obviously, everybody listening to this is gonna be a B two b market. Er so in 93 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:06.550 the B two B space, should they be dumping all their money on paid linked 94 00:06:06.550 --> 00:06:11.350 in Should it be YouTube ads like what monday dot com has done? Should it be 95 00:06:11.350 --> 00:06:15.360 Facebook instagram like, How do you think about assessing platforms? You 96 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.480 always have to assess like the Big Three for B two b marketing, right? So 97 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:23.070 it's for B two b marketing is gonna be Google Facebook ads and LinkedIn ads. 98 00:06:23.540 --> 00:06:27.130 I'm definitely leaning towards Google and Facebook ads to start If I think if 99 00:06:27.130 --> 00:06:29.790 I can hit something good there, I'll probably move the Lincoln ads where 100 00:06:29.790 --> 00:06:33.540 it's generally more expensive right now. So it kind of depends on your deal size 101 00:06:33.540 --> 00:06:37.080 to, um, if you want to get started on LinkedIn ads before I jump into like 102 00:06:37.080 --> 00:06:40.060 the platforms, though, there's just one thing I have to get off my chest when 103 00:06:40.060 --> 00:06:44.370 it comes to paid media because for some people, paid media is like a bad word. 104 00:06:44.340 --> 00:06:47.400 And I've here this quote a lot, and it's kind of crass, but I feel like 105 00:06:47.400 --> 00:06:50.670 it's such a bad misconception that I have to, like, attack it. It's like 106 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:55.920 advertising's like sex Onley suckers Pay for it, right? I don't know if 107 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:59.540 you've ever heard that line. It's a saying out there, and it's there 108 00:06:59.540 --> 00:07:02.510 because people have a general negative perception of paid media out there, 109 00:07:02.510 --> 00:07:06.100 especially in the content marketing space. They're all about not paying. 110 00:07:06.110 --> 00:07:09.810 But honestly, I find that content marketing can actually b'more expensive 111 00:07:09.810 --> 00:07:14.340 than paid media sometimes right because of all the soft cost it takes to 112 00:07:14.340 --> 00:07:17.680 actually produce it. How, how long you have to be producing in order to make 113 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:21.550 it work for you become profitable. Paid media is so much faster and easier. 114 00:07:21.550 --> 00:07:24.310 It's why it's top priority for me to get it up and running for sweet fish 115 00:07:24.310 --> 00:07:27.610 this year, because I know it will start producing results within a month or two, 116 00:07:27.620 --> 00:07:32.790 let alone 6 to 8 months. The channels we're looking at for sweet fish are the 117 00:07:32.790 --> 00:07:35.650 big ones, But then you have to think about where your audience is actually 118 00:07:35.650 --> 00:07:40.270 spending time right there. You might have special a special audience. You're 119 00:07:40.270 --> 00:07:46.000 going after procurement specialists, heads of procurement, right? Where did 120 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:49.570 those guys hang out? They might be on these specialty platforms that you 121 00:07:49.570 --> 00:07:53.050 could buy ads for pennies on the dollar on and, yeah, their banner ads. But 122 00:07:53.050 --> 00:07:56.550 that's still it's still good. Maybe it's not as robust, but it's still a 123 00:07:56.550 --> 00:08:00.060 good place to be throwing money at because that's where they congregate 124 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:02.100 and that's we're going to spend time. That's where you're going to get their 125 00:08:02.100 --> 00:08:06.730 attention. To give you an example for sweet fish were obviously our podcast 126 00:08:06.730 --> 00:08:09.740 agency. I want to get in front of more people listening to podcast because 127 00:08:09.740 --> 00:08:13.550 their chances are they're gonna be more likely to want to start a podcast. Eso 128 00:08:13.550 --> 00:08:18.440 I'm I'm advertising on I heart media people listening to business podcast on 129 00:08:18.440 --> 00:08:22.130 our heart media as a test, I'm also going to pod bean, which is like a 130 00:08:22.130 --> 00:08:26.750 little niche podcasting app. Or we could throw some banner ads up. Maybe 131 00:08:26.750 --> 00:08:30.260 some audio adds up to get people listening to this show that you're 132 00:08:30.260 --> 00:08:33.340 listening to right now. But I'm fishing where the fish are fishing, where 133 00:08:33.340 --> 00:08:37.130 people already listening to podcasts, specifically business podcast, where 134 00:08:37.130 --> 00:08:42.020 I'm more likely to find more people for this show and more customers. So I'm 135 00:08:42.030 --> 00:08:45.310 finding where people are hanging out. I'm thinking about the different places 136 00:08:45.310 --> 00:08:49.240 where I could possibly target, but I'm also going after the big guys like 137 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:53.390 Google on Facebook because you could niche down in those areas To Facebook. 138 00:08:53.390 --> 00:08:57.920 Specifically is probably the powerhouse on Lee because you could just target 139 00:08:57.920 --> 00:09:01.640 the heck out of people and you can retarget. They're more specifically 140 00:09:01.650 --> 00:09:05.130 while on these niche sites like on Pod Bean or I Heart Media. I'm not re 141 00:09:05.130 --> 00:09:09.300 targeting people, but on Google, Google's network and through Facebook's 142 00:09:09.300 --> 00:09:13.210 network, you can retarget people and actually find that if you're gonna get 143 00:09:13.210 --> 00:09:17.960 started in advertising. I would start in retargeting first. And just for 144 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:22.510 those that are maybe newer to their seat in marketing, Retargeting is just 145 00:09:22.520 --> 00:09:26.720 taking the folks that have come to your site already, whether it was through an 146 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:31.200 organic bog post or whatever they've landed on your site, you now kind of 147 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:35.410 cookie them or you put a pixel on them and you follow them around the Internet 148 00:09:35.420 --> 00:09:40.480 wherever they go. Eso that they're seeing are our brand. Whether that be, 149 00:09:40.490 --> 00:09:44.680 you know, whether our creative is, you know, going straight to a sales page or 150 00:09:44.690 --> 00:09:49.860 it's a piece of content that explains, You know, our 26 step process for 151 00:09:49.860 --> 00:09:53.660 starting a podcaster is just declare. But that's what you mean when you say 152 00:09:53.670 --> 00:09:57.380 retargeting. There's a few other avenues of retargeted, but generally 153 00:09:57.380 --> 00:10:01.530 just following people around who have already been to your website because 154 00:10:01.540 --> 00:10:04.500 they've already been impressed by you once, like, let's get the impression 155 00:10:04.500 --> 00:10:07.880 count up so they actually remember you. So you're looking at these platforms. 156 00:10:07.880 --> 00:10:12.840 I've heard Chris Walker say that Google, you know, he doesn't think anything 157 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:16.590 about S e O. He's not spending any time on S e o. He doesn't think that that's 158 00:10:16.590 --> 00:10:21.460 how you know the modern buyer is actually making a purchase decision. 159 00:10:21.470 --> 00:10:26.710 I've found that just to be not true at all. E don't know. I'm doing it all the 160 00:10:26.710 --> 00:10:30.360 time. Any time I have a question, I'm bringing it to Google. My at least 161 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:34.670 millennials are I know Gen Z like Googling like they're being raised by 162 00:10:34.670 --> 00:10:40.720 Google. Yeah, yeah, but Google ads. I tend not to ever look at a Google ad. I 163 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:44.820 kind of immediately scroll right past the ads. So what's your thinking on 164 00:10:44.830 --> 00:10:49.920 using Google's ad network? When, at least for me as a buyer, I I don't know 165 00:10:49.920 --> 00:10:53.370 that I've ever clicked on a Google ad. If I'm being completely honest, a lot 166 00:10:53.370 --> 00:10:56.660 of people dio and I only know because I've run a lot of ad campaigns and 167 00:10:56.660 --> 00:11:00.110 people do click all the time. People are clicking them less, which is why 168 00:11:00.110 --> 00:11:03.670 Google keeps blurring the line between what's an ad and what's what's the 169 00:11:03.670 --> 00:11:07.010 content underneath it. Hence now the only difference is like this tiny 170 00:11:07.010 --> 00:11:10.380 little box that says add next to it. They keep making it harder and harder 171 00:11:10.380 --> 00:11:12.900 to distinguish it, because a lot of people just click the first thing they 172 00:11:12.900 --> 00:11:17.550 see, but I actually try to find Doing both is the best, right? You want to 173 00:11:17.550 --> 00:11:23.750 saturate the page. And the more the more likely the more intent behind the 174 00:11:23.750 --> 00:11:27.500 key word there is around the purchase. For us, it would be like B two b 175 00:11:27.500 --> 00:11:31.380 podcasting agency. If they're searching that, it's kind of like Okay, like, 176 00:11:31.390 --> 00:11:34.760 they're probably going to be an ideal customer, right? But not a lot of 177 00:11:34.760 --> 00:11:37.200 people search that. So you always have to go and find more keywords that or 178 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:40.870 maybe less profitable. But for BTB podcasting agency, I wanna have an ad 179 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:44.730 and I wanna have to organic results if I could get them. But the ad is the 180 00:11:44.730 --> 00:11:47.820 fastest way to get to the top of the page, and people do click them. People 181 00:11:47.820 --> 00:11:51.630 do confer, especially if they have a specific pain point. You know you have 182 00:11:51.630 --> 00:11:55.740 a good solution for it. People are going to click it. Should folks attack 183 00:11:55.750 --> 00:12:00.800 all three of the big three SOS? Call it Google Facebook linked in all at the 184 00:12:00.800 --> 00:12:04.280 same time, or should they start with Google, then go to Facebook, then go 185 00:12:04.280 --> 00:12:09.880 linked in How should they think about that? If you're going cold, you can do 186 00:12:09.880 --> 00:12:14.650 one at a time. Actually think starting with. If you're new at writing ad copy, 187 00:12:14.650 --> 00:12:17.760 Google is the best place toe learn, though it's a little bit more expensive 188 00:12:17.760 --> 00:12:20.720 than Facebook. The reason why it's the best place to learn. It's It's just 189 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:23.760 simpler. You don't have to deal with the ad, the image creative. And you can 190 00:12:23.760 --> 00:12:26.680 like, really hone your skill and writing value propositions because it's 191 00:12:26.680 --> 00:12:29.860 so little text you get. You have to learn how to make every fricking 192 00:12:29.860 --> 00:12:33.800 character count on that Google ad in order to split, test them and make them 193 00:12:33.800 --> 00:12:36.970 work. That's where I cut my teeth as a copywriter was just writing these 194 00:12:36.970 --> 00:12:41.390 little tiny, pithy 15 character headlines. That's all I had, man. But 195 00:12:41.390 --> 00:12:45.340 you have to become extremely concise that way on. And then those learnings 196 00:12:45.340 --> 00:12:48.490 carry over to Facebook, cause you kind of start to learn what people respond. 197 00:12:48.490 --> 00:12:53.880 Thio not just as a copywriter but in your specific industry, but it's the 198 00:12:53.880 --> 00:12:58.160 opposite for retargeting. If you're gonna go for retargeting first, you 199 00:12:58.160 --> 00:13:02.580 want to go as many platforms is possible because if you can pixel them 200 00:13:02.580 --> 00:13:05.740 for hitting your block post, no matter where they showed up from it, whether 201 00:13:05.740 --> 00:13:09.330 it's search or social or whatever they hit that block post. And there the more 202 00:13:09.330 --> 00:13:12.250 places they're seeing you, the more likely they are going to be to remember 203 00:13:12.250 --> 00:13:16.180 you. Hopefully you're worth remembering in your product is good or your we're 204 00:13:16.180 --> 00:13:20.740 gonna talk about the creative on that in a second. But so that's why I'm 205 00:13:20.750 --> 00:13:24.150 trying to hit many platforms I can within a short period of time. So I'm 206 00:13:24.150 --> 00:13:28.740 gonna be on Google Google Display Network. If I had video, we should talk 207 00:13:28.740 --> 00:13:32.000 about this later. We're doing creating a video to retarget on YouTube, which 208 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:36.550 is amazing retargeting on Facebook so that no matter where they go, they're 209 00:13:36.550 --> 00:13:39.960 seeing it somewhere you can retarget on Pinterest. Not that I would recommend 210 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:43.540 for B to B companies with a lot of people have retargeting programs, so I 211 00:13:43.540 --> 00:13:46.300 would be on his many is possible. How do you think about you've touched on 212 00:13:46.300 --> 00:13:48.770 this a little bit. How do you think about creative? So obviously with 213 00:13:48.770 --> 00:13:52.060 Google, it's, you know, it's very limited because it's it's very short 214 00:13:52.060 --> 00:13:56.540 text, but I think I've got some thoughts on how I want to approach 215 00:13:56.540 --> 00:14:00.490 creative with our paid media differently. I don't think people are 216 00:14:00.490 --> 00:14:05.220 being very creative at all with their creative on paid media, and I think 217 00:14:05.220 --> 00:14:09.310 that's what you're seeing. Gary V and Chris Walker kind of push against is 218 00:14:09.310 --> 00:14:13.340 man. We could be way more creative with the paid dollars that we're spending 219 00:14:13.340 --> 00:14:17.500 and advertising. How do you think about it? I always like to think about 220 00:14:17.500 --> 00:14:22.230 marketing a lot like dating, and too many people are going for the, you know, 221 00:14:22.230 --> 00:14:26.800 proposal on the first introduction with creative right. It's almost like me 222 00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:30.750 walking up to a girl in the middle of a park, getting down on one knee and 223 00:14:30.750 --> 00:14:33.930 showing her the diamond and saying, Will you marry me? And at best, she's 224 00:14:33.930 --> 00:14:38.960 gonna like, like, laugh and look around for a camera. No to joke. At worst, I'm 225 00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:43.620 gonna get slapped, you know. But if you think about that's what marketers do 226 00:14:43.630 --> 00:14:47.420 every single day, they're like, Hey, do you want to buy this new watch your 227 00:14:47.420 --> 00:14:50.580 like I've never seen you before. I don't know what kind of watches you're 228 00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:54.260 peddling. I'm not interested. Get away from me right there. Creepers! They're 229 00:14:54.260 --> 00:14:58.250 weird. Um, but we do it in marketing all the time, so really, you wanna do 230 00:14:58.250 --> 00:15:01.250 it? Kind of like dating. You know, you want to introduce yourself, have a good 231 00:15:01.250 --> 00:15:05.130 first impression, take them out on a date, go on a couple dates, meet their 232 00:15:05.130 --> 00:15:09.160 family, have them meet your family. Kind of get understanding for where 233 00:15:09.160 --> 00:15:12.130 your values air at, right. But it's the same thing with marketing. We want to 234 00:15:12.130 --> 00:15:15.770 be able to have a good first impression and not go for the kill, like right 235 00:15:15.770 --> 00:15:20.500 away. Right on bats. Best done through promoting content. Now in some places, 236 00:15:20.510 --> 00:15:25.070 you can actually just go for it because the cost toe advertise. It's so low. 237 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:30.190 Five years ago, when Facebook first rolled adds into their feed, it was so 238 00:15:30.190 --> 00:15:37.760 cheap I was literally getting like conversions for a college for $3 a lead. 239 00:15:38.140 --> 00:15:41.990 To give you an idea and higher education, they pay at least $100 a 240 00:15:41.990 --> 00:15:48.290 lead, sometimes $1000 for a lead like an actual quality, and someone who's 241 00:15:48.290 --> 00:15:52.940 actually searching for kind of lead, like literally 100 to $1000 is what I'm 242 00:15:52.940 --> 00:15:57.390 getting them for $3 on Facebook. And that's why the college group. It's the 243 00:15:57.400 --> 00:16:00.850 Google arbitrage that Gary capitalized on when he was building his family's 244 00:16:00.850 --> 00:16:06.180 wine shop. When you can rank for a wine keyword for a nickel, you exploit those 245 00:16:06.180 --> 00:16:09.650 platforms. We're past that. We're beyond that now. Maybe not with you 246 00:16:09.660 --> 00:16:13.500 tick tock and and things like that. But for the platforms that we're talking 247 00:16:13.500 --> 00:16:18.270 about, the big three here we are beyond that now, it's not easy to get $3 248 00:16:18.270 --> 00:16:22.820 conversions anymore. So how does that impact the kind of creative that you 249 00:16:22.820 --> 00:16:27.550 put out through your paid media? So now, because you can't just show up to 250 00:16:27.550 --> 00:16:30.800 people and expect them to, like, buy or at least become a lead a sales 251 00:16:30.800 --> 00:16:34.540 qualified lead, not just a marketing qualified lead like first introduction, 252 00:16:34.550 --> 00:16:38.050 you have tow. Sweeten the deal. You have to like, give them a little bit 253 00:16:38.050 --> 00:16:43.050 more time and lead with content, and you could do like a 12 punch. It's 254 00:16:43.060 --> 00:16:45.770 pretty, pretty simple to set up if you're going to do this for the first 255 00:16:45.770 --> 00:16:49.830 time, I recommend just taking maybe one of your best block post the block post 256 00:16:49.830 --> 00:16:54.240 that your customers tell you is like the most helpful to them, or, you know, 257 00:16:54.250 --> 00:16:57.250 is the answer has the best answer to like something you know, they struggle 258 00:16:57.250 --> 00:17:01.370 with all the time the block post helps and just prepare to promote that thing 259 00:17:01.380 --> 00:17:05.630 and then retarget everyone who sees that block post with the lead magnet 260 00:17:05.630 --> 00:17:09.970 that leads to a sales qualified lead. Or, I guess in BB, we call that a 261 00:17:09.970 --> 00:17:13.329 marketing qualified lead, right? It's actually meets the right parameters, 262 00:17:13.339 --> 00:17:17.940 and you send it sales, right? So that's just like a quick 12 punch. It's been 263 00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:21.880 available and easy to do on Facebook for quite a few years now, But what 264 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:25.839 we're planning on doing is even farther by putting out multiple content pieces 265 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:29.790 so it's gonna be content. Lead magnet, but content focused lead magnet, not 266 00:17:29.790 --> 00:17:33.790 pricing page, not demo request. It's gonna be like, hey, download this 26 267 00:17:33.790 --> 00:17:37.960 guide so that we're not just retargeting them on places like 268 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:42.140 Facebook and on Google Display Network. We're actually getting them an email 269 00:17:42.140 --> 00:17:47.670 now, but again, even the emails or value value value value again. It takes 270 00:17:47.670 --> 00:17:52.200 a lot of time to warm people up. And depending on the lifetime value of your 271 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:56.950 customer, you can afford to do that for quite a bit. But again, just to start, 272 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:00.020 if you're new to it, just start with one block. Post, you know, is the 273 00:18:00.020 --> 00:18:05.440 killer block post that somehow leads is. And then that demo request becomes more 274 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:09.020 obvious the next time it rolls around right? And you might have a little pop 275 00:18:09.020 --> 00:18:13.150 up that shows up on the block post that like Leeds Teoh, um, or sales marketing 276 00:18:13.150 --> 00:18:17.330 qualified lead. But you're not gonna get many on the block post, and that's 277 00:18:17.330 --> 00:18:23.020 okay. So creative, being really be thinking about your creative as 278 00:18:23.030 --> 00:18:29.930 educational content, Not necessarily just throwing graphics videos like I 279 00:18:29.930 --> 00:18:34.880 like the idea of using memes and GIFs as creative that you actually put paid 280 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:39.610 media behind to get the attention to get your brand in front of people. And 281 00:18:39.610 --> 00:18:44.210 so I I just think thinking differently about creative instead of just kind of 282 00:18:44.210 --> 00:18:49.790 the same traditional path of some generic graphic that says Buy from us 283 00:18:49.800 --> 00:18:55.220 cheesy stock photo that has like a model in it. That's just super. It just 284 00:18:55.220 --> 00:18:59.230 doesn't work. You think? Think of consider as you're considering creative, 285 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:04.550 what works for you? What makes you want to click on an ad? Because the 286 00:19:04.560 --> 00:19:08.900 likelihood is you very rarely want to click on ads. What I like about the 287 00:19:08.900 --> 00:19:13.380 idea of paid media is even if someone doesn't click on it. I was just talking 288 00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:17.940 to our c o about this. Even if someone doesn't click on an ad them, seeing it 289 00:19:17.950 --> 00:19:22.280 was valuable for us. And so whether they see it on Instagram, they see it 290 00:19:22.280 --> 00:19:26.560 on Facebook. They see it on LinkedIn. They see it on Google's display network. 291 00:19:26.840 --> 00:19:30.980 Over and over again. They're seeing sweet fish and podcasting, sweet fish 292 00:19:30.980 --> 00:19:34.910 and podcasting, sweetie, fish and podcasting. So it's attribution is hard 293 00:19:34.910 --> 00:19:39.580 because they may never click on one of those ads. But a week down the road, 294 00:19:39.580 --> 00:19:42.800 two weeks, three weeks down the road, they end up going toe are Googling 295 00:19:42.800 --> 00:19:46.430 sweet fish because they keep seeing that logo everywhere as it relates to 296 00:19:46.430 --> 00:19:51.420 podcasting. And so they end up coming in from, you know, from a Google search 297 00:19:51.420 --> 00:19:56.950 of our names so branded search. And it's really hard to know whether that 298 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:02.650 retargeting ad or that cold ad had any influence in their decision. You know, 299 00:20:02.650 --> 00:20:05.730 apart from what Hub spot tells you which I know you were saying offline. 300 00:20:05.730 --> 00:20:09.710 The hub spot does help with a lot of this. Oh, for sure, Help Spot can't 301 00:20:09.710 --> 00:20:13.230 measure everything, but it does because people are cross device and stuff, so 302 00:20:13.230 --> 00:20:17.080 the cookies get mixed up. But it still tells you Hub Spot will still tell you 303 00:20:17.080 --> 00:20:20.830 like, Hey, like they came in off a social that first time. But then they 304 00:20:20.830 --> 00:20:23.910 got retargeted and came back two or three times because of these ads. And 305 00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:27.330 there's the ads they saw him clicked on and engaged. Like Hub Spot can keep 306 00:20:27.330 --> 00:20:31.290 track of that kind of data, which is nice and helpful. At the end of the day, 307 00:20:31.290 --> 00:20:34.740 I still just like to talk to the customers, especially customers who 308 00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:39.640 recently made the decision that you're you're it. That customer is the best 309 00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:43.250 person to talk to. An interview did ask him about the whole journey when I 310 00:20:43.250 --> 00:20:45.970 talked to those guys and I'm running paid media and I know they probably 311 00:20:45.970 --> 00:20:49.380 came off of paid media. My favorite question is like, Oh, how many ads did 312 00:20:49.380 --> 00:20:55.510 you see? Often times they saw it over and over and over and over again. And 313 00:20:55.510 --> 00:20:59.170 then what they usually tell me is I finally just had to decide, Like, 314 00:20:59.540 --> 00:21:03.750 figure out what it waas Because I saw eight times and I was like, You know 315 00:21:03.750 --> 00:21:08.550 what? Why not? Click s. So it took eight impressions of it in order for 316 00:21:08.550 --> 00:21:12.400 them to click and then convert, And now they're a customer. So I want to close 317 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:17.270 out the this conversation, Dan, by talking about success and and how do 318 00:21:17.270 --> 00:21:21.720 you measure success with this? Because I think what I hear from Gary what I 319 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:26.030 hear from Chris Walker what I hear from folks that really understand this space 320 00:21:26.030 --> 00:21:31.070 because they run agencies that do a lot of this work is that you cannot measure 321 00:21:31.070 --> 00:21:35.390 the success of your paid media by looking at the paid media with a 322 00:21:35.390 --> 00:21:40.550 microscope. You have tow, have a general understanding that attribution 323 00:21:40.550 --> 00:21:44.270 is really, really hard. It's really hard to know whether that somebody 324 00:21:44.270 --> 00:21:48.730 seeing that add on a Google search how much that actually influenced their 325 00:21:48.730 --> 00:21:52.980 decision. It's just tough. You have to, at a certain level, trust that you're 326 00:21:52.980 --> 00:21:57.670 spending these dollars in a smart way on platforms where your buyers are 327 00:21:57.670 --> 00:22:02.350 hanging out and that ultimately it's going to result in increased revenue. 328 00:22:02.340 --> 00:22:04.330 Because we were talking about this offline. You're like, Yeah, but there's 329 00:22:04.340 --> 00:22:08.430 there's more ways to measure success other than did our revenue go up into 330 00:22:08.430 --> 00:22:12.260 the right? Can you elaborate on those when it comes to measuring marketing 331 00:22:12.260 --> 00:22:16.240 success? I used the kind of the three tiers. These are the three tiers I look 332 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:20.950 at. I look at him for almost every channel. Some work better than others. 333 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:25.410 But first I try to look at like the data, right, like the hard numbers. And 334 00:22:25.410 --> 00:22:29.020 this is where Facebook's giving you data about the performance of ads. How 335 00:22:29.020 --> 00:22:32.260 Spot's gonna be able to track somewhat like which adds, actually lead to 336 00:22:32.260 --> 00:22:35.820 revenue more again, That's somewhat broken, so you can't depend all on the 337 00:22:35.820 --> 00:22:39.450 hard data, so the hard data is a good place to start. I certainly like having 338 00:22:39.450 --> 00:22:43.860 access to it. It informs my intuition, but you have to take it is that you 339 00:22:43.860 --> 00:22:48.150 can't take it as hard fact, even though it's cold numbers because you know, 340 00:22:48.150 --> 00:22:51.140 some of the data is being lost. You know that working with people isn't 341 00:22:51.140 --> 00:22:54.600 always hard fax, right? People are very irrational in their decision making 342 00:22:54.600 --> 00:22:58.520 right and do weird things, and but you can usually find some trends and find 343 00:22:58.520 --> 00:23:02.930 some really good insights in the data. So that's one Avenue is actually 344 00:23:02.930 --> 00:23:06.240 looking at your your analytics and your tools that actually give you hard data 345 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:10.240 on, like what performed well, where conversion rates of different pages and 346 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:14.160 block posts and all that kind of stuff. That's one set of information. The next 347 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:18.760 set is to build a survey that you could send a new customers. I like to build a 348 00:23:18.760 --> 00:23:22.530 really simple. It has to be less five questions. It can't be over five 349 00:23:22.530 --> 00:23:25.130 questions. The longer the survey is, the less people fill them out. So if 350 00:23:25.130 --> 00:23:28.280 you could make it short and simple for like, how did you hear about us? What 351 00:23:28.280 --> 00:23:31.120 worked like just come up with five questions that you want to know about? 352 00:23:31.120 --> 00:23:35.860 Usually I like to ask like, Oh, where did you first hear about us and what 353 00:23:36.340 --> 00:23:39.620 pieces of our content where the most helpful for you? Or two questions that 354 00:23:39.620 --> 00:23:43.260 I like to ask, depending on what other kind of marketing systems I have going 355 00:23:43.260 --> 00:23:46.980 on, I might ask other questions, but from that survey, I can usually learn a 356 00:23:46.980 --> 00:23:51.560 lot of additional information because they'll start to fill me in. And I 357 00:23:51.560 --> 00:23:54.550 could take that survey and look through all the dead and Excel sheet and like 358 00:23:54.550 --> 00:23:58.970 look for trends. I also try to make that survey open ended in that I don't 359 00:23:58.970 --> 00:24:01.480 force people to pick between multiple choice because I think it's too 360 00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:05.070 limiting. I like to hear what words they use and then look through them on 361 00:24:05.070 --> 00:24:08.230 and you could find the trends yourself. So it's a little bit more qualitative 362 00:24:08.230 --> 00:24:12.920 than quantitative because the data is quantitative. The survey's somewhere in 363 00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:17.290 between. And then I like to go and just talk to them and through conversation 364 00:24:17.290 --> 00:24:20.770 and just informal interviews on the best book I've ever seen on this is 365 00:24:20.770 --> 00:24:25.030 personas struggling to remember the author of that book. I think you've 366 00:24:25.030 --> 00:24:28.310 read that book to think. I think it's on your shelf behind you there buyer 367 00:24:28.310 --> 00:24:32.700 personas, buyer personas. Yeah. Yep, best book I've ever read on doing 368 00:24:32.700 --> 00:24:35.910 market research through just simple and formal interviews. That's my favorite 369 00:24:35.910 --> 00:24:38.900 of all three. That's probably my favorite like, even more than all the 370 00:24:38.900 --> 00:24:42.750 data and analytics that we get. But that tells me more about the whole 371 00:24:42.760 --> 00:24:46.190 experience people are going through. When I compare all three of those those 372 00:24:46.190 --> 00:24:50.140 systems and tears together, I get the best picture. But at the end of the day, 373 00:24:50.150 --> 00:24:54.560 I still have to make a gut choice. But hopefully based on the information got 374 00:24:54.560 --> 00:24:58.470 up. I love it. Awesome, man. So we've talked about timing. How do you know 375 00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:02.900 when is right to do paid media talked about assessing platforms. Obviously, 376 00:25:02.900 --> 00:25:08.210 the Big Three and B two b are gonna be Google Facebook and LinkedIn talked 377 00:25:08.210 --> 00:25:11.990 about the creative how to think about creative. Um and we've talked about 378 00:25:11.990 --> 00:25:15.480 measuring success. I think, folks, we're gonna get a ton of value out of 379 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:18.980 this man if you're listening to this and you have not already left a rating 380 00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:23.210 for the show going ahead and do that, I think we're about to hit 350 ratings. 381 00:25:23.210 --> 00:25:27.920 Those ratings really do help us help more people find the show in apple 382 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:32.350 podcasts. And if you're getting value from it, that Zatz one very small way, 383 00:25:32.350 --> 00:25:34.970 it takes you two seconds you don't even need to leave a review. Just half the 384 00:25:34.970 --> 00:25:38.800 number of stars you think this show deserves. It would be We would be 385 00:25:38.800 --> 00:25:42.770 enormously grateful to you for that. So thank you so much for listening, Dan. 386 00:25:42.780 --> 00:25:47.670 Thanks for spilling your brain on this episode. Super pump to get it out. 387 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:53.690 Can't wait to get those ads running. Hey, everybody. Logan was sweet fish 388 00:25:53.690 --> 00:25:57.660 here. If you're a regular listener of B two B growth, you know that I'm one of 389 00:25:57.660 --> 00:26:01.710 the co host of the show, but you may not know that I also head up the sales 390 00:26:01.710 --> 00:26:06.210 team here. A sweet fish. So for those of you in sales or sales ops, I wanted 391 00:26:06.210 --> 00:26:09.830 to take a second to share something that's made us insanely more efficient. 392 00:26:09.830 --> 00:26:14.490 Lately, our team has been using lead I Q for the past few months and what used 393 00:26:14.490 --> 00:26:20.290 to take us four hours gathering contact data now takes us on Lee one where 75% 394 00:26:20.300 --> 00:26:24.270 more efficient were able to move faster with outbound prospecting and 395 00:26:24.280 --> 00:26:28.940 organizing our campaigns. It's so much easier than before. I'd highly suggest 396 00:26:28.950 --> 00:26:33.510 you guys check out lead I Q as well. You can check them out at lead. I q dot 397 00:26:33.510 --> 00:26:37.570 com That's l e a d e que dot com 398 00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:43.130 One of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth is that word of 399 00:26:43.130 --> 00:26:47.560 mouth works. It works really, really well, actually. So if you love this 400 00:26:47.560 --> 00:26:51.710 show, it would be awesome if you texted a friend to tell them about it. And if 401 00:26:51.710 --> 00:26:56.140 you send me a text with a screenshot of the text you sent to your friend Meta I 402 00:26:56.140 --> 00:26:59.690 know I'll send you a copy of my book Content based networking. How to 403 00:26:59.700 --> 00:27:03.130 instantly connect with anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 404 00:27:03.130 --> 00:27:08.450 4074903328 Happy texting.