Transcript
WEBVTT
1
00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740
Yeah,
2
00:00:04.740 --> 00:00:08.230
welcome back to BBB growth. I'm dan
Sanchez with Sweet Fish Media and I'm
3
00:00:08.230 --> 00:00:12.620
here with Matt Church who is the
Chairman of Thought Leaders and the
4
00:00:12.620 --> 00:00:16.680
author of the books, Thought Leaders
and Thought Leaders Practice, which I
5
00:00:16.680 --> 00:00:20.290
have with me here and I finished
reading it a few months ago. So Matt,
6
00:00:20.300 --> 00:00:23.550
welcome to the show. Hey dan, thanks
for having me, awesome to be here.
7
00:00:24.240 --> 00:00:28.940
Absolutely. As you guys know, we've
been doing a deep dive on the topic of
8
00:00:28.940 --> 00:00:32.060
thought leadership marketing over the
month of june and I've been
9
00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:35.770
interviewing multiple practitioners.
Thought leaders, Thought Leader Thought
10
00:00:35.770 --> 00:00:41.260
Leaders and a variety of different
episodes about the ideas around thought
11
00:00:41.260 --> 00:00:43.940
leadership market. Now very excited to
talk to matt because it's one of my
12
00:00:43.940 --> 00:00:48.130
favorite books on the topic so far
because he had a few unique ideas on
13
00:00:48.130 --> 00:00:53.750
how to not only find ideas about how to
package them so they're actually useful
14
00:00:53.760 --> 00:00:58.280
later on and we'll be diving into
multiple ideas he's expressed in his
15
00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:01.830
book and it's always a selfish interest
for me is I get to go in and go a
16
00:01:01.830 --> 00:01:05.470
little bit deeper with the questions
that I had from the book itself. So to
17
00:01:05.470 --> 00:01:09.010
kick things off matt, can you tell us a
little bit about, like how did you get
18
00:01:09.010 --> 00:01:12.360
into the topic of thought leadership?
Like what even brought you here?
19
00:01:12.370 --> 00:01:16.140
Because it's uh always find that
there's an interesting story about that.
20
00:01:16.150 --> 00:01:20.440
Yeah, well, we were talking just before
we hit record about the reticence to
21
00:01:20.440 --> 00:01:25.830
talk about myself and I think, You know
this and you know, how long have we got?
22
00:01:25.830 --> 00:01:31.810
Right? I'm 52, so I've been doing
versions of this for a long time, but I
23
00:01:31.820 --> 00:01:36.740
was 17, I graduated with a black belt
in a martial art and started to teach
24
00:01:36.740 --> 00:01:42.770
kids and from that space, the idea of
being a teacher uh and sharing ideas
25
00:01:42.770 --> 00:01:47.940
and helping you know, being fully self
expressed. So training myself and then
26
00:01:47.940 --> 00:01:50.760
being able to share those ideas with
others was the start of the journey.
27
00:01:50.940 --> 00:01:55.310
I've loved reading books, I've loved
listening to audio recordings back in
28
00:01:55.310 --> 00:01:58.870
the day, it was cassette tapes and I
remember the first set of cassette
29
00:01:58.870 --> 00:02:01.800
tapes I was given and then your
audience might be a bit young, but
30
00:02:01.810 --> 00:02:04.580
that's like a playlist, you can't
change, right? And we were doing
31
00:02:04.580 --> 00:02:10.039
mixtapes and in the eighties and I
remember getting brian Tracy's
32
00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:14.960
psychology of achievement where he was
laying out these principles, it was
33
00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:19.540
classic eighties, nineties motivational
tour, personal development stuff. And
34
00:02:19.540 --> 00:02:24.310
that began my journey and then later in
Science and Education director of the
35
00:02:24.310 --> 00:02:27.850
Australian Council for Health, and then
getting into corporate wellness
36
00:02:27.850 --> 00:02:32.280
performance, leadership training. It
was all just for me this this space of
37
00:02:32.290 --> 00:02:36.010
what do you know? And is there a way
you can share it with other people that
38
00:02:36.010 --> 00:02:40.150
adds value and utility to their world
or life? And that's, that's pretty much
39
00:02:40.150 --> 00:02:44.040
what thought leadership is. We can talk
about it as a, as a marketing strategy
40
00:02:44.040 --> 00:02:47.690
for growth and it is, but essentially
at its core essence, there is something,
41
00:02:47.690 --> 00:02:52.390
you know, an insider and expertise and
that if you can share it with others in
42
00:02:52.390 --> 00:02:56.730
a way they value, everything gets
better, Business grows personal
43
00:02:56.730 --> 00:03:01.330
development life improves in whatever
domain. So I'm kind of just, I know
44
00:03:01.330 --> 00:03:06.290
that's my jam and it's it's where I
love to live, so to be able to think
45
00:03:06.290 --> 00:03:11.160
and speak and write um and be paid to
do that. It's just like Nirvana for me,
46
00:03:11.940 --> 00:03:15.640
yes, I love, I've been falling in love
with this topic. I was talking to Grant
47
00:03:15.640 --> 00:03:21.880
Butler, who's another guy, not not too
far from you in Australia, but he was
48
00:03:21.880 --> 00:03:25.730
telling me yesterday that like,
journalism is a record of the past
49
00:03:25.730 --> 00:03:28.740
while thought leadership is really a
record of the future or what you're
50
00:03:28.740 --> 00:03:32.840
hoping the future will hold, write a
recommendation for where to go, which I
51
00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:36.820
thought was kind of a unique and fun
concept. Considering your as a thought
52
00:03:36.820 --> 00:03:40.460
leader, you're you're throwing out
unique ideas and trying to steer steer
53
00:03:40.460 --> 00:03:44.240
a bit of the future in your particular
niche or industry with your expertise.
54
00:03:44.250 --> 00:03:49.480
So it's a fun topic. And I could see, I
know your your black belt came to play
55
00:03:49.480 --> 00:03:53.710
and lots of the book as you talk about
the different levels of uh thought
56
00:03:53.720 --> 00:03:58.210
leadership. But let's go back to like
the beginning, if you are an expert or
57
00:03:58.210 --> 00:04:02.160
you're working with experts, I find the
hardest part, even as I'm working with
58
00:04:02.160 --> 00:04:05.400
experts is they don't feel like they
have a lot to contribute, right? They
59
00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:08.150
kind of know everything about the topic
and they're just like, oh I feel like
60
00:04:08.160 --> 00:04:11.530
everything's been covered already. I've
heard this multiple times from people
61
00:04:11.540 --> 00:04:15.830
like as you're working with your own
clients and working maybe with your own
62
00:04:15.830 --> 00:04:22.060
ideas. Like how do you go about finding
topics that are both unique and helpful
63
00:04:22.440 --> 00:04:27.110
for people to kind of call their
thought leadership ideas? Well, I'm
64
00:04:27.110 --> 00:04:32.240
really big on insight driven, the
thought leadership that doesn't mean
65
00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:35.850
it's evidence informed, which is one of
the fields of thought leadership and it
66
00:04:35.850 --> 00:04:40.110
doesn't mean it's opportunity seeking.
So for me, thought leadership doesn't
67
00:04:40.110 --> 00:04:44.750
come from a gap in the market now
realizing the B2B conversation, that
68
00:04:44.750 --> 00:04:48.720
might be exactly what thought
leadership is doing. But in from my
69
00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:52.990
point of view, working with individuals
who might end up writing books on a
70
00:04:52.990 --> 00:04:56.970
matter or doing ted talks on a matter
or whatever it might be, It really
71
00:04:56.970 --> 00:05:00.520
comes from deep contemplation and
insight. So it's almost like if
72
00:05:00.520 --> 00:05:04.730
meditation was disciplining the mind to
not have thoughts that mindfulness was
73
00:05:04.730 --> 00:05:08.370
filling the mind with sensors.
Contemplation is the third choice and
74
00:05:08.370 --> 00:05:12.260
you can almost see it as a left brain,
right brain and the inverted triangle.
75
00:05:12.340 --> 00:05:16.290
And so contemplation or insight
developed. Thought leadership is where
76
00:05:16.290 --> 00:05:22.700
it begins. And I often like to think of
it as a commercial PhD and I think that
77
00:05:22.700 --> 00:05:27.910
the academy and the whole idea of
academia has some really powerful stuff
78
00:05:27.910 --> 00:05:30.900
and I think it's also a little messed
up. So so one of the things that makes
79
00:05:30.900 --> 00:05:35.370
the academy really, really powerful is
literature review. And so that before
80
00:05:35.370 --> 00:05:39.060
you do a piece of work, like a thesis,
you want to be across the body of
81
00:05:39.060 --> 00:05:43.940
knowledge and however you choose to do
that when when I work with individuals,
82
00:05:43.940 --> 00:05:47.900
I go, look, you've got a topic you're
wanting to write or blog or talk on or
83
00:05:47.900 --> 00:05:51.930
whatever it might be, I say, can you
get three books for me? Can you find
84
00:05:51.940 --> 00:05:56.190
the classic bestseller on that? Can you
then? And that means like 10 years or
85
00:05:56.190 --> 00:05:59.960
more, can you get the contemporary
bestseller on that book? And that's
86
00:05:59.960 --> 00:06:03.670
like five years or less? And can you
give me the current best seller? That's
87
00:06:03.670 --> 00:06:06.690
the book that's popped this year and
now I'm not suggesting that's an
88
00:06:06.690 --> 00:06:11.000
exhaustive literature review, but what
it gives us is it gives us the past,
89
00:06:11.010 --> 00:06:16.430
the recent past and the present. And so
you get an idea that it's very quickly
90
00:06:16.430 --> 00:06:21.560
and those three sort of reads whether
it be a get abstract with a four page
91
00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:26.520
pdf of each or inaudible on two times.
Listen. And as you're listening to
92
00:06:26.520 --> 00:06:30.680
those books, a couple of things will
start to happen. Let's imagine you were
93
00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:34.200
reading a book, classic old school,
right? And you're a student, you read
94
00:06:34.200 --> 00:06:37.260
it, you highlighted paragraph and you
go, yeah, that's cool, I hope I can
95
00:06:37.260 --> 00:06:41.250
remember that. As a teacher, you read
it and you go, yeah, that's cool, how
96
00:06:41.250 --> 00:06:45.320
could I share that? But as a thought
leader, you read it and you go, that's
97
00:06:45.320 --> 00:06:51.280
interesting, what do I think about that?
And you pause And you pause and you ask
98
00:06:51.280 --> 00:06:58.180
yourself two questions. Do I want to
refute or extend that idea? And you're
99
00:06:58.180 --> 00:07:03.070
moving into the path of contribution
which is you read something, you go,
100
00:07:03.070 --> 00:07:07.940
yeah and in the finance sector that
looks this way or in real estate that
101
00:07:07.940 --> 00:07:12.540
looks this way or in banking that looks
this way or in software service that
102
00:07:12.540 --> 00:07:16.520
looks this way, so you may be going
yeah and and making it relevant or
103
00:07:16.520 --> 00:07:20.180
you're going yeah, but and what you're
doing is actually contradicting it and
104
00:07:20.180 --> 00:07:23.720
you're going yeah but that does not
relate to small business or that does
105
00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:27.840
not relate to globally distributed
companies. So at contribution and
106
00:07:27.840 --> 00:07:33.790
contradiction you start to if you like,
capture your insights and I think you
107
00:07:33.790 --> 00:07:38.570
can do this with, you know, with quotes
with uh with the abstract on a piece of
108
00:07:38.570 --> 00:07:43.260
research with just a really cool mantra
you hear someone say or something
109
00:07:43.260 --> 00:07:47.440
that's on an instagram post and these
are the butterflies of ideas that
110
00:07:47.440 --> 00:07:53.050
should float around and that you kind
of want to take them and then work them.
111
00:07:53.140 --> 00:07:57.250
Um Probably just one more thing not to
extend the answer to make it too long,
112
00:07:57.740 --> 00:08:02.160
but I think there's a four step process
and I think people start at the top and
113
00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:07.150
you don't want to, you want to start at
the bottom. Uh The first thing you want
114
00:08:07.150 --> 00:08:11.900
to do is imagine you're an art gallery
and you're the curator and what you're
115
00:08:11.900 --> 00:08:15.110
gonna do is you're gonna go, there's
some cool stuff on, let's say service
116
00:08:15.110 --> 00:08:19.870
experience, your or or customer
usability or something, whatever it
117
00:08:19.870 --> 00:08:22.460
might be. You know, there's some cool
stuff on this and you just start
118
00:08:22.460 --> 00:08:26.910
curating it, just putting it up on the
wall with really strong reference. The
119
00:08:26.910 --> 00:08:31.390
artist of that is the artist of that is
letting giving good references. Then
120
00:08:31.390 --> 00:08:34.220
what you do is you start to promote
those that really resonates. So let's
121
00:08:34.220 --> 00:08:37.620
say you're on behaviour change, you'd
probably get James clear and his book
122
00:08:37.620 --> 00:08:42.400
atomic habits. You might get Professor
fog from the stanford behavior and
123
00:08:42.400 --> 00:08:46.790
influence clinic and the work on tiny
habits. And you'd be talking about
124
00:08:46.800 --> 00:08:51.260
promoting those as authors. If you're
encourage, you might be, you know,
125
00:08:51.260 --> 00:08:56.170
talking about Brown a brown, right? So
you start with curating and then what
126
00:08:56.170 --> 00:09:00.640
you do is you propagate. So you sort of
share other people's ideas. Um, then
127
00:09:00.640 --> 00:09:05.810
what you do is you aggregate and the
aggregation is where you go. So and so
128
00:09:05.810 --> 00:09:10.620
said this, so and so says this and I'm
wondering it makes me think about this.
129
00:09:10.620 --> 00:09:16.720
So it's like one to me, one to me and
you share your insight. And then once
130
00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:19.980
you've done those three things, which
is almost enough, what you can do is
131
00:09:19.980 --> 00:09:22.800
you can think, okay, now here's my
unique insight that I'm going to
132
00:09:22.800 --> 00:09:27.170
contribute. But if you spend all your
time trying to be terminally unique,
133
00:09:27.180 --> 00:09:30.230
you don't engage with the conversation
that's already present in the
134
00:09:30.230 --> 00:09:34.310
marketplace and you kind of, it's
disrespectful because obviously we're
135
00:09:34.310 --> 00:09:37.900
all standing on the shoulders of giants
when it comes to developing ideas and
136
00:09:37.900 --> 00:09:41.990
it's really good to be able to join
yours back to source, you know, what,
137
00:09:41.990 --> 00:09:45.720
where was some of the original thinking?
I love how you kind of pulled it back
138
00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:49.380
to academia because it's kind of the
process that phds go through, right? I
139
00:09:49.380 --> 00:09:52.860
have a friend who's in a robust PhD
program and he's telling me about all
140
00:09:52.860 --> 00:09:55.790
the reading he's doing and of course he
read broadly. Now he's going to do his
141
00:09:55.790 --> 00:10:00.750
niche topic and reading every book ever
written on like a specific, he's going
142
00:10:00.750 --> 00:10:04.930
to do a dissertation on a specific man
in history that only has one major
143
00:10:04.940 --> 00:10:09.290
paper written on on the man's life. So
naturally he has to go and read every
144
00:10:09.290 --> 00:10:13.760
book about that man, the man's work,
like every good friend demands had, you
145
00:10:13.760 --> 00:10:16.750
know, it's kind of like he's gotta go
understand the conversation that's
146
00:10:16.750 --> 00:10:19.940
already happened in order to even
understand what he could add. That's
147
00:10:19.940 --> 00:10:24.170
new to the conversation that I also
kind of like that in your process, you
148
00:10:24.170 --> 00:10:29.040
have to um essentially, I mean modern
days, it looks like posting on social
149
00:10:29.040 --> 00:10:32.460
media. Um but it could also be if
you're in the academia world posting to
150
00:10:32.460 --> 00:10:35.510
journals and things as you're sharing
out different peoples insights but
151
00:10:35.510 --> 00:10:40.370
allows you to actually build a
credibility as people get to watch you
152
00:10:40.370 --> 00:10:44.170
learn and watch you grow. Um and I
think that's an important thing. I
153
00:10:44.170 --> 00:10:47.890
certainly have phds contact me to be on
this show and it looks like they've
154
00:10:47.890 --> 00:10:50.710
been published in Forbes and
entrepreneur, but I've never heard of
155
00:10:50.710 --> 00:10:54.350
them and I don't like maybe their ideas
useful, but I'm like, I have no idea
156
00:10:54.350 --> 00:10:57.200
who you are, I'm not going to have you
want me to be growth, even though it
157
00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:01.000
looks like you have the makings of all
the credibility you would need, but by
158
00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:03.670
publishing it and kind of sharing it
out there in those stages that you
159
00:11:03.670 --> 00:11:08.760
mentioned, you can kind of build
credibility with the industry over time.
160
00:11:09.140 --> 00:11:12.860
Yeah. And I think, I think the thing
whether you ever publish a book or not,
161
00:11:12.870 --> 00:11:17.770
and I realized that a lot of your
audience might be directors or VPs or
162
00:11:17.770 --> 00:11:22.790
in house B two B marketers and they're
like, it doesn't hurt to go imagine I'm
163
00:11:22.790 --> 00:11:23.560
writing a book,
164
00:11:24.940 --> 00:11:29.710
you don't have to, but you just think
about it as a book. And then anybody
165
00:11:29.710 --> 00:11:33.130
who is writing a book, I say don't
write a single book, write a series.
166
00:11:33.140 --> 00:11:36.330
Now, you don't have to write the books,
you don't have to actually publish them.
167
00:11:36.340 --> 00:11:41.350
It's just such a useful way to kind of
catalog your thinking. And uh, and I'd
168
00:11:41.350 --> 00:11:44.850
almost encourage people go, what's the
title of your book? If I read the back
169
00:11:44.850 --> 00:11:49.440
page, what would it say? Give Me the
Table of Contents. All right, just give
170
00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:53.240
me the top 50 words of every chapter.
And then I go, I don't need the book,
171
00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:56.870
I'm good, thank you. Now and now is
there a diagram that summarizes the
172
00:11:56.870 --> 00:12:00.480
whole book? Can you give me some
circles, squares and triangles, shove
173
00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:03.680
them together in some way? So I get a
snapshot and is there a metaphor that
174
00:12:03.680 --> 00:12:07.060
explains your book? Because then the
contents almost irrelevant, isn't it?
175
00:12:07.140 --> 00:12:11.510
The 40-70,000 words that goes into a
book becomes irrelevant because you've
176
00:12:11.510 --> 00:12:15.450
given me the insights and you've given
me the architecture of the framework of
177
00:12:15.450 --> 00:12:18.990
your thinking. So I always love to sit
with thought leaders and go what your
178
00:12:18.990 --> 00:12:22.640
current book project, I don't even care
whether they publish them. And you know
179
00:12:22.640 --> 00:12:27.680
that all my books are digitally free.
So I believe that our job is to not be
180
00:12:27.680 --> 00:12:32.100
just in the idea business, but to be an
experienced business. To your point
181
00:12:32.100 --> 00:12:36.270
about those academics, it's one thing
to know something, but it's another to
182
00:12:36.270 --> 00:12:39.180
be known for knowing something. And I
think that's the fundamental
183
00:12:39.180 --> 00:12:43.180
distinction between linking thought
leadership and say B two B growth or
184
00:12:43.180 --> 00:12:48.680
growth versus just your friend who's
going deep on one person as a
185
00:12:48.680 --> 00:12:52.980
contribution to a body of work in
society. And I go, okay, that's cool.
186
00:12:52.990 --> 00:12:59.200
But I'm interested, I have a bias
towards utility. Can someone grab this
187
00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:03.080
and use it to make life or business
better? And so everything in my world
188
00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:03.960
excuse that way.
189
00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:09.680
So if you walk through your process and
you started to share other people's
190
00:13:09.680 --> 00:13:13.160
ideas, share your opinions on other
people's ideas and throw out some new
191
00:13:13.160 --> 00:13:17.300
ideas, how do you then go about
validating whether those ideas like,
192
00:13:17.300 --> 00:13:22.440
hold like are going to be something,
maybe you would put a book behind or
193
00:13:22.450 --> 00:13:26.240
push out there with your name attached
to it in the public sphere, knowing
194
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:30.080
that people are kind of kind of
ruthless on things like twitter and
195
00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:33.380
facebook, right? They'll tell you apart,
But I'm like, no, it's completely bowl
196
00:13:33.380 --> 00:13:38.900
and I'm not buying it. Right? So how do
you go about validating idea or kind of
197
00:13:38.900 --> 00:13:44.150
getting to that point? Well, my answer
is, you don't have to, the market does.
198
00:13:44.160 --> 00:13:48.170
That's an extreme capitalist point of
view, and I'm not a capitalist, I'm a
199
00:13:48.170 --> 00:13:53.660
classical libertarian, so I'm not
socialist, not capitalist. I sort of
200
00:13:53.660 --> 00:13:57.180
sit in this third choice, which is you
do whatever you want, as long as it
201
00:13:57.180 --> 00:14:01.290
doesn't stop me doing whatever I want.
And when I think of the, you know, I'm
202
00:14:01.290 --> 00:14:04.230
Australian, right? So I look with
admiration at, like, say, Aaron
203
00:14:04.230 --> 00:14:07.690
Sorkin's version of America and the
West Wing, and I look at and I go, oh,
204
00:14:07.690 --> 00:14:13.210
yes, I love that. And the whole idea of
emancipation, that's meant to be in the
205
00:14:13.220 --> 00:14:15.550
constitution. And
206
00:14:17.540 --> 00:14:22.070
And so for me, and I don't mean like
the invisible hand of economics and the
207
00:14:22.070 --> 00:14:28.070
invisible hand of the market, because
we know that's a flawed, flawed model,
208
00:14:28.070 --> 00:14:33.910
if we just look at 2008 and even more
recently, right? So but to some extent
209
00:14:33.910 --> 00:14:39.600
I go, well are people buying your idea
and they buy it with their money is the
210
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:44.140
lowest form of currency, right? Like
are they buying it with their time? Are
211
00:14:44.140 --> 00:14:48.240
they buying it with their energy? And
are they buying it with their identity?
212
00:14:48.250 --> 00:14:52.470
Because I think money is the lowest
commitment. You can join the gym by
213
00:14:52.470 --> 00:14:55.480
paying the money, but that doesn't mean
you go you got to put in the time,
214
00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:58.100
you've got to put in the energy and
then when you ultimately think of
215
00:14:58.100 --> 00:15:01.710
yourself as a cross fitter, then you
can't not train, you know what I mean?
216
00:15:01.710 --> 00:15:06.610
It's like all these uh middle aged
accountants who ride Harleys and
217
00:15:06.610 --> 00:15:12.810
identify as bikers. So it's like once
identity starts to take over things
218
00:15:12.810 --> 00:15:18.710
work. So what I find is people gather
around an idea and so the validation
219
00:15:18.710 --> 00:15:23.240
for me is in that Is there an audience
for that idea? But we are in an outrage
220
00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:27.850
culture. One of the things that I
really like is Professor cal Newport's
221
00:15:27.850 --> 00:15:32.400
work on deep focus and I really like
the idea that thought leadership is the
222
00:15:32.400 --> 00:15:38.970
result of deep focus. Not 142 280
characters on Twitter and followership.
223
00:15:38.970 --> 00:15:43.270
So there's a distinction for me between
thought leadership and being an
224
00:15:43.270 --> 00:15:47.720
influencer on social media. And I
reckon the heart of your question
225
00:15:47.730 --> 00:15:52.450
around validation is probably in that.
So I'm not looking for the superficial
226
00:15:52.450 --> 00:15:57.170
validation of likes. I'm looking for
the significant validation that people
227
00:15:57.170 --> 00:16:02.840
identifying around a story and around a
set of memes and insights and that
228
00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:06.290
being the ultimate validator. I find
that most people when they approach
229
00:16:06.290 --> 00:16:10.440
validation are looking for some kind of
mathematical or scientific approach to
230
00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:14.600
apply to ideas. But some ideas are easy
to do to do that with. And you might be
231
00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:19.120
a research body and you have all the
data and you just pull insights from
232
00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:22.980
that data. It's it's more but not all,
not all insights are like that. Some of
233
00:16:22.980 --> 00:16:26.010
them are times, they're just epiphanies
like oh well I noticed this and I
234
00:16:26.010 --> 00:16:28.660
noticed this and you mix them together
and all of a sudden bam we have a whole
235
00:16:28.660 --> 00:16:32.150
different approach that seems to be
working for a lot of people And
236
00:16:32.150 --> 00:16:36.140
sometimes can be hard to validate
unless you have 10, 20 years of
237
00:16:36.140 --> 00:16:40.150
experience doing it. Then people tend
to buy it. But sometimes you don't know
238
00:16:40.150 --> 00:16:44.890
if you wanna wait that long to produce
to publish an idea. Maybe you just hold
239
00:16:44.900 --> 00:16:49.360
your idea open handed and be like, hey,
this is something that's worked for us.
240
00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:53.950
It may not work for you. Well,
obviously there's so many domains for
241
00:16:53.950 --> 00:16:57.760
thought leadership, Right? So there's,
there's a thought leader that I work
242
00:16:57.760 --> 00:17:01.900
with, which is the individual solo
consultant writing books and getting on
243
00:17:01.900 --> 00:17:06.250
the ted stage right there and they
could be members of institutions, but
244
00:17:06.250 --> 00:17:10.099
they're like Harvard professors who
then want to go out and be a brand in
245
00:17:10.099 --> 00:17:14.990
their own right. So if it's your name
dot com, um, that's sort of the Worrell
246
00:17:14.990 --> 00:17:18.750
might come from. So I think that's one
of the benefits of being on your show
247
00:17:18.760 --> 00:17:23.800
is you've got this unlike Wasabi, you
wouldn't make a meal out of it, but it
248
00:17:23.800 --> 00:17:28.590
will make the fish taste better or the
sushi tastes tastes better. So coming
249
00:17:28.590 --> 00:17:32.220
from that outside world view, my, my
validation is if people aren't reading
250
00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:36.520
your books, if they aren't following
your posts, if they aren't engaging
251
00:17:36.520 --> 00:17:39.860
with the conversations and applying it
then there's your validation. It's real
252
00:17:39.860 --> 00:17:43.740
close as real immediate because you're
so close to the customer. But if I was
253
00:17:43.740 --> 00:17:47.810
an entrepreneur so I was a thought
leader within a large organization, I
254
00:17:47.810 --> 00:17:51.870
was using it to say build
organizational agenda or customer
255
00:17:51.870 --> 00:17:58.000
engagement or or just classic sales
growth. Then yeah. I think the key is
256
00:17:58.010 --> 00:18:05.280
if the this is probably probably more
important than the algorithm is to move
257
00:18:05.280 --> 00:18:10.940
from convincing yourself through data
and algorithm that it's a good idea and
258
00:18:10.940 --> 00:18:15.240
more having the conviction that that
idea solves a problem that someone has.
259
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:21.070
And I think that when experts develop
empathy they are more able to become
260
00:18:21.070 --> 00:18:25.170
thought leaders. So they go from I know
something to actually they figure out
261
00:18:25.180 --> 00:18:28.920
that part in which they know that is
useful to someone else. And then the
262
00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:32.330
validation disappears because people go
that is my problem. I have been looking
263
00:18:32.330 --> 00:18:36.650
for a solution that sounds like the
solution and they start to engage with
264
00:18:36.650 --> 00:18:41.620
it in that kind of self directed self
interest orientation. Um You know when
265
00:18:41.620 --> 00:18:45.210
you when you when you thought
leadership is expressed in service to
266
00:18:45.210 --> 00:18:48.490
others, you get rewarded for the
contribution. And so that's like this
267
00:18:48.490 --> 00:18:54.690
magic Venn diagram that kind of brings
it all the life. I do like the way you
268
00:18:54.690 --> 00:18:58.380
describe people buying into and
actually believing it actually acting
269
00:18:58.380 --> 00:19:01.920
on it. I think anybody who's done
consulting knows that it's it's kind of
270
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:05.540
disappointing even when people, they
pay you good money for your ideas, they
271
00:19:05.540 --> 00:19:09.340
say thank you so much. This is so
helpful. A year or two goes by and
272
00:19:09.340 --> 00:19:12.250
you're like how did that go? And
they're like oh we never did it. But it
273
00:19:12.250 --> 00:19:17.920
was really good. You're just kind of
like what they're like can we hire you
274
00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:18.760
again? You're like
275
00:19:20.040 --> 00:19:23.790
okay sure. If you want to keep just
paying me money for ideas you don't
276
00:19:23.790 --> 00:19:27.920
implement right? I think I will
consultant at some point. So I think
277
00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.480
you're right. I used to think of
dollars is the way to validate
278
00:19:30.490 --> 00:19:36.760
something but really buying change and
a true adoption of the idea is really
279
00:19:36.760 --> 00:19:41.140
is kind of like the final final goal
post, right? Yeah. I love what you just
280
00:19:41.140 --> 00:19:44.550
did there that whole it's almost like
there's a continuum right? And on the
281
00:19:44.550 --> 00:19:50.870
left, I'm inspired but on the right I
implement and you go, well what what is
282
00:19:50.870 --> 00:19:55.560
it that help someone move along that
curve and I feel it's a series of
283
00:19:55.560 --> 00:20:00.450
decisions. And so the mistake we make
as thought leaders is we come in with
284
00:20:00.450 --> 00:20:04.500
the solution. So someone asked us for
the time and we tell them the history
285
00:20:04.500 --> 00:20:10.440
of clocks when in fact perhaps the way
of looking at this is not that they're
286
00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:13.880
fools for paying you and not taking on
the idea and I know you didn't put it
287
00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:18.590
that way, but rather than we haven't
done the work of walking them on the
288
00:20:18.590 --> 00:20:22.680
journey. And for me it's really what
are the three decisions that someone
289
00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:28.880
needs to make to move from turned on to
your idea, inspired to actually doing
290
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:32.640
something with it? What are the three
things that stand in the way? So for
291
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.550
example, let's say you were working
with small business owners, like I know
292
00:20:35.550 --> 00:20:39.560
you're not, but let's say you go, you
know, and that you want to teach them
293
00:20:39.560 --> 00:20:43.190
that turnover is irrelevant like what
you turn over, who cares, It's what you
294
00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:46.650
take home that matters. So get the
money out of your business and into
295
00:20:46.650 --> 00:20:50.030
assets or something like that because
they're small little businesses that
296
00:20:50.040 --> 00:20:53.980
are never going to be sold or
statistically unlikely to be sold. So
297
00:20:53.980 --> 00:20:57.880
this is such a good sort of
hypothetical to talk about because we
298
00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:01.520
can all look at it and go, all right,
what's the biggest problem they've got
299
00:21:01.530 --> 00:21:05.110
and its cash flow, what's the second
biggest problem? They've got its staff
300
00:21:05.120 --> 00:21:08.860
and what's the third biggest problem?
It's time they never take some time off.
301
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:11.660
And so what you want to do is you want
to talk about cash flow
302
00:21:12.740 --> 00:21:18.050
staff and time not take home and you
come in as the expert going, let's talk
303
00:21:18.050 --> 00:21:21.400
about take home and they go, you know
what, I just need my cash flow up. And
304
00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:26.180
so the idea is help them with a series
of decision gates that helps them move
305
00:21:26.180 --> 00:21:30.340
from just simply being turned on by
possibility to actually implementing
306
00:21:30.340 --> 00:21:35.720
things practically. And I love that the
word decides, it's from the same
307
00:21:35.730 --> 00:21:41.410
Entomology as suicide homicide,
Regicide. So all of the kill off words
308
00:21:41.420 --> 00:21:45.960
and and you know, homicide as I kill
another suicide as I kill myself,
309
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:52.190
Regicide is I kill a king or a queen.
Um but but to decide means to kill off
310
00:21:52.190 --> 00:21:55.720
choice and I think that's what happens
at the inspiration and everyone's got
311
00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:59.280
unlimited choice. And what you want to
do is narrow it down to a series of
312
00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:03.320
decision gates where people are moving
from the convergence of possibilities.
313
00:22:03.320 --> 00:22:11.150
So the divergence of possibility to the
convergence of of decisions and like,
314
00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:14.690
wow, we could do everything. Yeah, but
let's do one thing, we could do
315
00:22:14.690 --> 00:22:18.390
everything. Yeah, but let's do this
thing and that kind of out and in
316
00:22:18.390 --> 00:22:21.670
because because when we when we develop
our thought leadership it's very
317
00:22:21.670 --> 00:22:26.640
divergent. You were talking about your
friend doing the PhD reading everything
318
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.050
on a topic, you got to go really
divergent, but at some point you have
319
00:22:30.050 --> 00:22:35.580
to converge down onto one person at one
point in history and he'll probably end
320
00:22:35.580 --> 00:22:40.080
up talking about one quality or
character attribute that person has and
321
00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:43.620
that is the fundamental difference. So
this whole expanding and contracting I
322
00:22:43.620 --> 00:22:48.190
think is why people don't adopt great
ideas is they don't know where they are
323
00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:52.960
and they they, you know, output. And
bali wrote a great book. Uh such a good
324
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:57.210
book is called before our next meeting,
read this. And he basically says
325
00:22:57.210 --> 00:23:00.510
there's two types of meetings,
brainstorming meetings and you want
326
00:23:00.510 --> 00:23:07.010
beanbags and muffins, you know, or
cupcakes and then he goes and decision
327
00:23:07.010 --> 00:23:10.360
making meetings where you want an
agenda and everybody standing up and we
328
00:23:10.360 --> 00:23:13.520
keep running our meetings confused
between those two and I think that
329
00:23:13.520 --> 00:23:17.990
talks to that idea eating nature and
that deciding nature and you've got to
330
00:23:17.990 --> 00:23:21.950
get that balance just right. My head's
swimming with all the ideas and
331
00:23:21.950 --> 00:23:26.040
thoughts that you, just from what you
just said. I am. I've often thought
332
00:23:26.040 --> 00:23:29.420
like a lot of thought leadership is
really the work of simplifying things
333
00:23:29.420 --> 00:23:32.460
for people. But you made it even
clearer by saying like Snow did the
334
00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:36.800
work of deciding is by eliminating
choice and essentially just giving
335
00:23:36.800 --> 00:23:42.010
people an easier and smoother path to
go down there, desired to get to their
336
00:23:42.010 --> 00:23:45.510
desired end goal and just make it
easier for them to get there. So you're
337
00:23:45.510 --> 00:23:49.640
as a thought leader essentially, like
just foraging new new paths to get
338
00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:54.730
there. Now for the implications for the
audience. Often think of like 22 major
339
00:23:54.730 --> 00:23:57.350
audience members, right? We have our
service providers and we have people
340
00:23:57.350 --> 00:24:01.850
who sell a product of some kind often
assassin tool. The service provider is
341
00:24:01.850 --> 00:24:05.420
actually kind of benefit from them not
being able to fully implement it
342
00:24:05.420 --> 00:24:09.510
themselves. I mean that's sweet fish as
a B2B podcasting service provider, I do
343
00:24:09.510 --> 00:24:13.250
try to make it as clear as possible so
people want to start a podcast but at
344
00:24:13.250 --> 00:24:16.570
the same time it's like, well, like if
they like the advice, they liked the
345
00:24:16.570 --> 00:24:20.360
idea, if they want to do it, they could
also just pay us money and we could do
346
00:24:20.360 --> 00:24:23.290
it for them, you know, and that's kind
of the thing. But if you're on the sas
347
00:24:23.290 --> 00:24:28.290
side, if you're selling a software, you
trying to you and usually your, your
348
00:24:28.290 --> 00:24:33.830
software, your system, um your your
product has an idea baked into it the
349
00:24:33.830 --> 00:24:37.390
more you can actually do what matt
saying and making it easy for them to
350
00:24:37.390 --> 00:24:40.520
make decisions to actually get to
execute the idea that your tool
351
00:24:40.520 --> 00:24:44.180
actually helps them do. The more use
you're going to get out of it, the less
352
00:24:44.180 --> 00:24:49.510
turn you're going to have with your
products and the more revenue you're
353
00:24:49.510 --> 00:24:53.020
going to make, the more you're going to
have positive word of mouth. Um so that
354
00:24:53.020 --> 00:24:59.570
really has legs to it now once they've
validated their ideas and have tested
355
00:24:59.570 --> 00:25:04.160
it with the market and um probably
tested it over time in small ways and
356
00:25:04.170 --> 00:25:07.750
gotten more and more adoption with it.
It's picked up steam. One of my
357
00:25:07.750 --> 00:25:11.050
favorite parts of your book talks about
what's called building an I. P.
358
00:25:11.050 --> 00:25:14.900
Snapshot and you kind of hit on it
briefly when you were talking about
359
00:25:14.910 --> 00:25:18.570
developing a book. So tell me like
where did the idea for? Like why, why
360
00:25:18.570 --> 00:25:21.960
was how did you even come up with this
idea? What's the story behind it? And
361
00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:28.600
then how does someone actually like
implement an I. P snapshot? Look, the
362
00:25:28.610 --> 00:25:34.090
casual name for an ip snapshot is a
pink sheet. The formal name is an IP
363
00:25:34.100 --> 00:25:37.980
intellectual property snapshot and it's
basically, can you summarize an idea on
364
00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:40.060
one page and
365
00:25:41.140 --> 00:25:45.710
you could almost imagine, well the
principle that sits behind this is full
366
00:25:45.710 --> 00:25:48.940
spectrum thinking the reason I'm
pausing is this is such a big piece of
367
00:25:48.940 --> 00:25:53.650
work and I'm trying to find the most
simplest access point and then sort of
368
00:25:53.650 --> 00:25:57.730
step us through two levels of depth. So
it's like we're sitting above the
369
00:25:57.730 --> 00:26:01.950
Mariana trench, the deepest part of the
ocean. And we're on the surface on a
370
00:26:01.950 --> 00:26:05.230
boat and then we're about to go down
into a submarine and then we're going
371
00:26:05.230 --> 00:26:08.640
to drop down into a deep dive
decompression chamber and then we're
372
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:14.930
going to end up in a jules verne city
on the base of the Mariana trench or
373
00:26:14.930 --> 00:26:20.930
lit up somehow. So this concept begins
with everything you would want to say
374
00:26:21.020 --> 00:26:26.420
exists at multiple levels. But at least
three. There's the thing, you're
375
00:26:26.420 --> 00:26:27.860
sharing the stuff,
376
00:26:29.140 --> 00:26:33.620
there is the point, you're making the
concept and then there's the big
377
00:26:33.620 --> 00:26:42.090
picture that it nests within. And when
you can travel across those three
378
00:26:42.090 --> 00:26:46.510
levels of abstraction from concrete,
through the abstract, what you start to
379
00:26:46.510 --> 00:26:51.870
do is you start to fully form ideas
because I think a lot of ideas are half
380
00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:56.230
baked and they're not fully formed. So
just giving it a backbone. Do you know
381
00:26:56.230 --> 00:26:59.870
what I mean? Like a concrete example,
and that might be some numbers that
382
00:26:59.870 --> 00:27:03.990
back it up. Very left brain or it might
be a narrative that brings it to life
383
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:10.310
very right brain. So I like to think of
it almost like a cross hair or or a
384
00:27:10.310 --> 00:27:14.960
compass with the north, south, east and
west. Uh and at the south is the
385
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:19.130
concrete stuff like the numbers and
narrative at the north is the abstract
386
00:27:19.130 --> 00:27:24.150
stuff. And I think that, you know, the
left brain abstract is some sort of
387
00:27:24.150 --> 00:27:25.770
model or diagram
388
00:27:26.840 --> 00:27:31.710
squares, triangles, circles, geometry
shoved together some way. Um you know,
389
00:27:31.710 --> 00:27:36.890
the consultant to buy to, you know, the
xy graph, the Venn diagram that the
390
00:27:36.890 --> 00:27:40.840
three by three matrix that you know,
concentric rings that, you know, the
391
00:27:40.840 --> 00:27:44.260
pyramids of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
You know, all these sort of things are
392
00:27:44.260 --> 00:27:49.800
geometry and metaphor of course, which
is, you know, some kind of short
393
00:27:49.800 --> 00:27:55.090
symbolic myth, a poetic narrative that
doesn't need a story to go with it and
394
00:27:55.090 --> 00:27:58.040
that communicates rich meaning, which
might be it's like the tip of an
395
00:27:58.040 --> 00:28:02.290
iceberg is like turning a battleship,
it's a plane that's off course, or
396
00:28:02.290 --> 00:28:07.150
indeed a compass. So all of all of
these tools, whether it's the numbers
397
00:28:07.150 --> 00:28:11.450
and narratives, which are the concrete
tools, or is the models and metaphors,
398
00:28:11.450 --> 00:28:16.470
which are the abstract tools, they sit
on this level of concrete, abstract and
399
00:28:16.470 --> 00:28:20.840
from analytical tour motive, which is
essentially left brain, right brain. Uh
400
00:28:20.850 --> 00:28:23.880
and I realized that all the left brain,
right brand stuff is in itself a
401
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:27.900
metaphor. And, you know, whilst there
is a corpus callosum that joins them,
402
00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:31.890
there's been some interesting research
to debunk the left hemisphere right
403
00:28:31.890 --> 00:28:35.760
hemisphere game, but I do love Jill
Bolte. Taylor's ted talk on that a
404
00:28:35.760 --> 00:28:39.400
neuro anonymous out of Harvard who had
a stroke and then talks about what
405
00:28:39.400 --> 00:28:44.850
happens when you only have access to
your right brain. So all of that sits
406
00:28:44.850 --> 00:28:49.050
to me on a piece of paper with like a
big infinity sign or a figure eight
407
00:28:49.060 --> 00:28:52.750
over it, you know, and you go there's
all the, you know, the big picture and
408
00:28:52.750 --> 00:28:56.360
then there's the all the detail and
it's sort of all brought together like
409
00:28:56.370 --> 00:29:00.220
a circle with a belt, like an eight.
It's all brought together in the middle
410
00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:04.090
around, you know what's what's your
point? And I try to work with thought
411
00:29:04.090 --> 00:29:08.420
leaders to get them to go look. The
numbers can make a lot of points and a
412
00:29:08.420 --> 00:29:12.970
story could make a lot of points. The
models could make a lot of points and
413
00:29:12.970 --> 00:29:16.200
the metaphors could make a lot of
points. So what we need to do is have a
414
00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:20.310
piece of paper where the top of the
piece of paper might be the same across
415
00:29:20.310 --> 00:29:24.670
12 of them. And the bottom of the piece
of paper might be the same across 12 of
416
00:29:24.670 --> 00:29:28.470
them. But the point you're making is
uniquely differentiated. So where the
417
00:29:28.470 --> 00:29:32.720
figure eight squeezes in the middle and
so the pink sheet process or the
418
00:29:32.730 --> 00:29:39.990
snapshot is that and it's been, you
know, it's it's yeah. Is it me sure? Is
419
00:29:39.990 --> 00:29:45.210
it what we do with thought leaders?
Absolutely. But is the idea of abstract
420
00:29:45.210 --> 00:29:49.340
concepts sitting above I guess as old
as time. If you want to talk about
421
00:29:49.340 --> 00:29:53.500
tactics and you want to talk about
strategy if you want to talk about meta
422
00:29:53.500 --> 00:29:57.950
and matter. Uh if you, you know, you
know, context and content, these ideas
423
00:29:57.950 --> 00:30:02.280
have been around forever. So what we've
done is sort of if you like, put it
424
00:30:02.280 --> 00:30:06.640
into a template that enables thought
leaders to capture their insights
425
00:30:06.690 --> 00:30:12.710
because and this is at the heart of it
if you have a thought and you capture
426
00:30:12.710 --> 00:30:21.000
it in application, so as a speech as a
workshop as a slide or as a blog or as
427
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:27.430
a and you capture it in its application,
it is baked into that application and
428
00:30:27.430 --> 00:30:31.750
it loses its insight mobility, which
means that idea can only be used as a
429
00:30:31.750 --> 00:30:35.350
speech or as a book or as a post or as
a tweet. I go, no, no, no, no, we need
430
00:30:35.350 --> 00:30:40.510
to leverage this stuff. So you want to
capture your insights agnostic of how
431
00:30:40.510 --> 00:30:43.790
they'll be delivered or shared with the
market in the world and then look at
432
00:30:43.790 --> 00:30:48.120
them as a body of work. And that's how
you go from not just one snapshot but
433
00:30:48.120 --> 00:30:51.730
to like a filing cabinet full of
snapshots and almost like in the movie
434
00:30:51.730 --> 00:30:55.590
matrix you can have filing cabinets on
filing cabinets slapped into an
435
00:30:55.590 --> 00:30:59.370
inception movie, you know going on and
on into time and you can develop your
436
00:30:59.370 --> 00:31:03.770
thought leadership that way I like I
like to think of it as a never ending
437
00:31:03.770 --> 00:31:07.340
journey of capturing insights and
putting them on this piece of paper.
438
00:31:07.340 --> 00:31:11.670
This take a snapshot of them and then
go okay I got that and I can draw that
439
00:31:11.670 --> 00:31:14.920
out at any time and like a deck of
playing cards like in poker or
440
00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:17.740
something, I can lay them in front of
me and go, you know what that one and
441
00:31:17.740 --> 00:31:21.920
that one are really good for this
client. And the idea is think before
442
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:26.680
you speak, think before you write,
think before you sell and capturing
443
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:30.480
them on the intellectual property
snapshot is the tool we use and the
444
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:35.740
practice we use to take you down. That
contemplated path to take you down into
445
00:31:35.740 --> 00:31:40.250
deep inside development around an idea.
It's honestly one of the most powerful
446
00:31:40.250 --> 00:31:43.550
ideas on um thought leadership that
have come across in all the reading
447
00:31:43.550 --> 00:31:47.520
that I've done so far. I still have
more books to read. But it really got
448
00:31:47.520 --> 00:31:51.970
me to start thinking differently as I
was thinking about my own ideas or
449
00:31:51.970 --> 00:31:56.580
spins or different things and it forced
me to sit down and actually flush them
450
00:31:56.580 --> 00:32:00.000
out to actually explore them a little
bit. And most people don't do it until
451
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:03.300
they go to write a book about a topic
and then they do. The problem is you
452
00:32:03.300 --> 00:32:07.500
can do, you can create a lot of useful
ideas without having to write books
453
00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:10.420
about them. Or if you are going to
write a book, it's a great it's a great
454
00:32:10.420 --> 00:32:13.000
place to start because if you can't
flush it out on a piece of paper,
455
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:15.690
you're sure it's going to be beating
your head against the wall if you can't,
456
00:32:15.700 --> 00:32:19.510
you're not going to write a whole book
on it. Um So now every time I think I
457
00:32:19.510 --> 00:32:22.770
have a unique idea, I'm like, oh that's
interesting. I try to describe it in a
458
00:32:22.770 --> 00:32:26.470
sentence and then maybe I describe it
and I like make a paragraph to kind of
459
00:32:26.470 --> 00:32:30.490
like if I had to do that and then I
might give it a name. So even if I'm
460
00:32:30.490 --> 00:32:34.320
kicking around internally, we're not
thinking like, oh that one idea you had
461
00:32:34.330 --> 00:32:38.590
last week. Yeah. Yeah, that one. It's
like, no, let's talk about that idea of
462
00:32:38.590 --> 00:32:41.570
content based networking, which is one
of our c E O s books, right? But it has
463
00:32:41.570 --> 00:32:45.180
a name. Content based networking
without the name. It's hard to even
464
00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:48.710
refer to the idea that could be
documented somewhere. So now I even
465
00:32:48.710 --> 00:32:51.850
started working with multiple employees
being like oh that's a good idea like
466
00:32:51.850 --> 00:32:56.090
let's sit down and put that on like a
one page google doctor even know to
467
00:32:56.090 --> 00:33:00.590
access that later. Usually I put it in
a blog post. Um You can really start to
468
00:33:00.590 --> 00:33:04.100
do its its powerful that you can build
a whole portfolio with it. Right? And
469
00:33:04.100 --> 00:33:07.050
you were talking like a filing cabinet.
I come from a graphic design background
470
00:33:07.050 --> 00:33:10.370
where it's all about the portfolio
right? Here's my logos, it was my print
471
00:33:10.370 --> 00:33:13.690
work, here's my website and you could
do that as a thought leader. And as an
472
00:33:13.690 --> 00:33:16.570
intern if you're an internal thought
leader of content marketer you could do
473
00:33:16.570 --> 00:33:20.410
that for your comfort. Be like where
are all the unique ideas you have about
474
00:33:20.410 --> 00:33:24.130
this topic that you guys deal with?
What about this topic? You can have
475
00:33:24.130 --> 00:33:29.670
like a collection a portfolio around
all those unique ideas. So it's it's
476
00:33:29.670 --> 00:33:32.780
certainly changed the way I approach
thought leadership even with Sweet Fish.
477
00:33:32.780 --> 00:33:36.480
But even our our employees who are
developing some of their own thought
478
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:41.230
leadership themselves in small ways is
getting them to think about cataloguing
479
00:33:41.230 --> 00:33:45.790
their ideas. Um And I certainly liked
like thinking about it like logically
480
00:33:45.790 --> 00:33:51.850
what's our um with research and
findings and then the right side brain
481
00:33:51.850 --> 00:33:56.800
right? Uh With a metaphor with the
diagram with the story. It's a great
482
00:33:56.800 --> 00:34:01.390
way to like really encapsulate an idea.
If you can get it on one page at least
483
00:34:01.390 --> 00:34:05.770
it's been helpful for me. I love the
idea also just to extend that a little
484
00:34:05.770 --> 00:34:09.600
bit like we're giving people a
checklist, right? And and for me it's
485
00:34:09.610 --> 00:34:14.739
like people say, what, what business
are you in? And you know, if I'm in a
486
00:34:14.750 --> 00:34:19.710
mildly playful mood, I'll go I'm a
property developer and they go, I like
487
00:34:19.710 --> 00:34:23.150
you buy condos, do you and me? Are you
develop property? I don't know, I'm an
488
00:34:23.150 --> 00:34:27.449
intellectual property developer and
just like you would find a plot of land
489
00:34:27.449 --> 00:34:32.090
and design a blueprint and build a
building and you would go to work on
490
00:34:32.090 --> 00:34:35.560
the design and architecture and
landscaping of that. It's the same
491
00:34:35.560 --> 00:34:40.360
process is just we're doing it with the
intangible of ideas versus the tangible
492
00:34:40.370 --> 00:34:44.070
of real estate. But you do want to
develop it, you do want to, you know,
493
00:34:44.070 --> 00:34:47.040
is it a well formed one? Is the one
that's going to fall down, Is it well
494
00:34:47.040 --> 00:34:51.429
built? Is it, you know, is it, you know,
weather tested is a climate appropriate?
495
00:34:51.429 --> 00:34:54.510
You know, in the southern hemisphere,
does it face north? In the northern
496
00:34:54.510 --> 00:34:57.580
hemisphere, does it face south? You
know, it's you know, you want to get
497
00:34:57.580 --> 00:35:02.210
all these different orientations going
um And so yeah, I get that's a metaphor,
498
00:35:02.210 --> 00:35:06.120
which is only partially useful, but
it's but it doesn't hurt to realize
499
00:35:06.120 --> 00:35:10.680
that you don't want your ideas only in
application, you want to have them
500
00:35:10.690 --> 00:35:14.970
application agnostic. So you want to
have them as this is like insite
501
00:35:14.970 --> 00:35:19.150
mobility. And for example, if I was to
read, You know, you were talking about
502
00:35:19.150 --> 00:35:23.580
one of your directors and and the
content, networking, content-based
503
00:35:23.580 --> 00:35:27.960
networking, I go, okay, well I bet
there's like 24 ideas in that, and I
504
00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:31.450
bet four of them have got nothing to do
with networking and nothing to do with
505
00:35:31.450 --> 00:35:36.440
content. And I go, well what are they
and now I can take them and repurpose
506
00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:41.070
them somewhere else because I think
repurposing content is the leverage of
507
00:35:41.070 --> 00:35:45.800
thought leadership. We just think once
apply often and find all the different
508
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:50.880
ways to deliver and apply those
concepts. Um yeah, it's super cool,
509
00:35:50.890 --> 00:35:55.340
super cool. So if you're working with
people and thought leaders on this, do
510
00:35:55.340 --> 00:35:59.960
you find that you have them packaged
their ideas and then use that as a
511
00:35:59.960 --> 00:36:04.610
starting point for their content
marketing for their speeches. Um How do
512
00:36:04.610 --> 00:36:08.410
you usually take their their one
shooters provided that they flushed it
513
00:36:08.410 --> 00:36:13.300
out? It's good, they've validated it to
some degree. Like how do you then turn
514
00:36:13.300 --> 00:36:14.160
it into more?
515
00:36:15.530 --> 00:36:19.830
Well there's a three step process and
you've alluded to this because it's the
516
00:36:19.830 --> 00:36:24.530
subtitle of the blue book, all my books
are like jelly beans, they're color
517
00:36:24.530 --> 00:36:28.930
coded, so you can choose in that way.
But the blue book Thought Leaders has a
518
00:36:28.930 --> 00:36:34.800
strap line that says capture package
and deliver your ideas and we're really
519
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:38.460
getting from packaging in this
interview now to the delivery question
520
00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:43.750
which is around how do we go to market
and how do we share them? I've been for
521
00:36:43.750 --> 00:36:50.560
if you study law and you go into law,
you kind of learn that dialogue and
522
00:36:50.570 --> 00:36:54.220
conversation has sort of three
directions to it. It has a declarative
523
00:36:54.220 --> 00:36:58.890
direction which is you make statements,
it has an instruct development where
524
00:36:58.890 --> 00:37:05.010
you give process and steps and it has a
questioning element where a space is
525
00:37:05.010 --> 00:37:08.120
created in the conversation through
questioning and you could summarize
526
00:37:08.120 --> 00:37:17.190
this as tell show us and when you're
telling people stuff, you're making a
527
00:37:17.190 --> 00:37:22.070
point and then sharing concrete
examples. So whether that's in a book
528
00:37:22.070 --> 00:37:26.840
or a speech, but when you're asking
people stuff, it's the exact opposite
529
00:37:27.530 --> 00:37:33.170
your you're establishing a context like
a framework and they're having a
530
00:37:33.170 --> 00:37:38.530
conversation into it. So, in fact, the
content comes from the market when
531
00:37:38.530 --> 00:37:42.720
you're in a facilitation mode or an ask
mode, and so we split that into six
532
00:37:42.720 --> 00:37:47.560
delivery modes, speakers, authors,
that's the telling modes, trainers and
533
00:37:47.560 --> 00:37:52.120
mentors, that's the instructive mode,
or the show mode, and facilitators and
534
00:37:52.120 --> 00:37:56.130
coaches, and that's the asking mode.
Now, obviously I'm teaching people how
535
00:37:56.130 --> 00:38:00.120
to do that and to go to market as
consultants using those six delivery
536
00:38:00.120 --> 00:38:03.610
channels, but they translate into every
organization as well, because they're
537
00:38:03.610 --> 00:38:07.780
answering six primary questions. You
know, if we just look at authorship,
538
00:38:07.790 --> 00:38:11.210
it's could you please give us a
strategy and can you document it so we
539
00:38:11.210 --> 00:38:15.590
can follow it? And if you look at
speaking, it's basically can you share
540
00:38:15.590 --> 00:38:18.760
that strategy and give us a vision? So
if someone says, do you have a strategy
541
00:38:18.760 --> 00:38:22.130
and you have a vision? They're saying
are you being a speaker and an author
542
00:38:22.140 --> 00:38:25.990
and that's how it turns up in an
organization. So I think what you want
543
00:38:25.990 --> 00:38:30.740
to do is take one pink sheet or one ip
snapshot and then figure out which bit
544
00:38:30.740 --> 00:38:36.140
of it to use around whether you're in a
telly moda showy mode or an asking mode.
545
00:38:36.220 --> 00:38:40.510
And that way the one pink sheet can go
to market in six different ways and
546
00:38:40.510 --> 00:38:46.720
that translates to not just consultants
who are writing books and getting on
547
00:38:46.720 --> 00:38:50.900
the being executive leadership coaches.
You know, it also translates to those
548
00:38:50.900 --> 00:38:56.520
who are trying to deploy their ideas
either internally to their audience.
549
00:38:56.520 --> 00:38:59.790
That's internal. So people understand
like value propositions and points of
550
00:38:59.790 --> 00:39:04.500
difference and how we work or
externally out to market, where you're
551
00:39:04.500 --> 00:39:08.780
like the rainmakers for the business
and you're starting to bring in people
552
00:39:08.780 --> 00:39:11.780
who are attracted by the depth and
quality of the thinking within your
553
00:39:11.780 --> 00:39:15.290
organization. I like how you break it
into three different sections. Most
554
00:39:15.290 --> 00:39:18.360
people when they think of thought
leadership, they think of just the, you
555
00:39:18.360 --> 00:39:21.370
know, the speaking, the broadcasting of
the idea, but there's so many different
556
00:39:21.370 --> 00:39:27.230
ways to express an idea I think is
useful and I think Is just fun to have
557
00:39:27.230 --> 00:39:31.110
more applications of thought leadership
than just broadcasting, publishing a
558
00:39:31.120 --> 00:39:36.340
white paper or a webinar or speaking on
stage, which is what is the most common
559
00:39:36.340 --> 00:39:40.610
for B2B marketers. But I want to link
it back to your observation that
560
00:39:40.620 --> 00:39:45.310
getting people inspired is not the same
as getting them engaged. And if you
561
00:39:45.310 --> 00:39:48.610
said to me travel me through that
inspiration to engagement, I go, well,
562
00:39:48.610 --> 00:39:51.910
the telly stuff, which is everything
you just identified is very good for
563
00:39:51.910 --> 00:39:56.170
inspiring people. But if they actually
come into your funnel for one of the
564
00:39:56.170 --> 00:40:00.480
better term or into your process or
your pipeline or into your workflow,
565
00:40:00.490 --> 00:40:03.690
what you want to be doing is moving
from talking at them to talking with
566
00:40:03.690 --> 00:40:07.560
them and you want to be moving to How
does this idea replies? So you go from
567
00:40:07.560 --> 00:40:13.230
tel to show to ask and in fact thought
leadership should run, not just at the
568
00:40:13.230 --> 00:40:18.740
attraction growth marketing phase, it
should also be deeply embedded into how
569
00:40:18.740 --> 00:40:22.730
you do what you do and the experience
that your customers and clients get. As
570
00:40:22.730 --> 00:40:26.350
a result, I just blew my mind. I was
like holy cow applying it to the
571
00:40:26.350 --> 00:40:29.100
thought leader that way. I mean I was
thinking about in terms of different
572
00:40:29.110 --> 00:40:33.780
business models, but to think about
those stages of thought leadership, I
573
00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:36.440
haven't heard anybody talk about as far
as like telling on the front end of the
574
00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:41.020
funnel, having a conversation in the
middle and then asking questions, which
575
00:40:41.020 --> 00:40:45.260
is like perfectly mirrors the funnel.
And that's how I thought leadership can
576
00:40:45.260 --> 00:40:49.620
really be echoed all the way through
and not just be top of funnel, which is
577
00:40:49.620 --> 00:40:53.370
how it's usually referred to. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah. And it should be
578
00:40:53.380 --> 00:40:57.370
that's not thought leadership, that's
curating content as a way of
579
00:40:57.370 --> 00:41:01.300
differentiating your products and
services and that's that's not deeply
580
00:41:01.300 --> 00:41:05.150
embedded and baked into your value
proposition. But, you know, the minute
581
00:41:05.150 --> 00:41:11.310
it is, I believe that everything begins
to hum and it's you know, when, when we
582
00:41:11.310 --> 00:41:16.520
silo anything in an organization, we're
in trouble, and what we do is we
583
00:41:16.520 --> 00:41:20.930
compartmentalize for. E So let's put
finance over there. Let's put marketing
584
00:41:20.930 --> 00:41:25.740
over here, let's put sales over there.
But an integrated system of course, is
585
00:41:25.740 --> 00:41:30.280
what a high performing organization is
and it operates in service to each
586
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:35.300
other. Um So we see that in a lot of
industries that disintegration and silo
587
00:41:35.300 --> 00:41:39.890
going, whether it's market silo going,
whether it's employee tears, silo going
588
00:41:39.890 --> 00:41:45.410
and it's not an effective way to run a
high performing organizations. So do
589
00:41:45.410 --> 00:41:49.040
you find that there is usually at least
from the people I'm talking to about
590
00:41:49.040 --> 00:41:52.050
that leadership and they're on this
podcast talking about that leadership
591
00:41:52.050 --> 00:41:55.240
because they do it usually do it
remarked fairly well. Otherwise I
592
00:41:55.240 --> 00:41:58.130
wouldn't be talking to them about it,
but I've just never heard of somebody
593
00:41:58.130 --> 00:42:01.790
actually working it into their usually
it's kind of like they're pulling from
594
00:42:01.790 --> 00:42:05.400
their own subject subject matter
experts, the ideas and therefore the
595
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:08.900
subject matter experts are kind of like
it's kind of already their thing. So
596
00:42:08.900 --> 00:42:11.720
you would hope that it's baked into the
whole process. But usually there's just
597
00:42:11.720 --> 00:42:15.560
some gaps like the sales people might
not be fully in line with what the
598
00:42:15.570 --> 00:42:21.200
unique idea that the organization is
trying to present is so try to bake it
599
00:42:21.200 --> 00:42:24.880
in that way is interesting. I can't
remember if this is part of the book
600
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:27.700
and I have to go back to check, but do
you actually lay out a framework for
601
00:42:27.700 --> 00:42:33.300
how to how to how to bring thought
leadership into the asking part? Yes
602
00:42:33.300 --> 00:42:38.230
enough. The in the blue book, Thought
Leaders, which is the first book we
603
00:42:38.230 --> 00:42:43.030
wrote on it, there is a chapter about
Tell Show Us And it talks about the six
604
00:42:43.030 --> 00:42:48.000
delivery modes and how they work in
organizational entrepreneurial and
605
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:54.310
personal consulting practices. So it's
kind of light. But the ask bit, I'm
606
00:42:54.310 --> 00:42:59.550
actually working on a new book in that
space, which is looking at was a book
607
00:42:59.550 --> 00:43:02.870
called deliver, which is going to be
across all of these three directions.
608
00:43:02.870 --> 00:43:07.790
Tell Show Ask, but they ask stuff is
really exciting because I think it's
609
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:12.020
it's where we get to do. The deep work
of engagement may be a reference for
610
00:43:12.020 --> 00:43:15.960
your listeners that will take them down
a rabbit hole. Is I love Forest
611
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:21.210
Landry's work on ephemeral group
process, which is essentially a
612
00:43:21.220 --> 00:43:27.770
collective decision making. And it's
how does a town has a let's imagine a
613
00:43:27.770 --> 00:43:30.830
bridge goes down and you get the whole
town together to talk about. What are
614
00:43:30.830 --> 00:43:33.930
we going to do about the fact there's
no bridge connecting us to the mainland
615
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:37.340
and you go, well, do we even want a
bridge or do we want to barge? Do we
616
00:43:37.340 --> 00:43:39.540
want to build the same kind of bridge
or a different kind of bridge? Do we
617
00:43:39.540 --> 00:43:42.430
want to hire? Lower? Do we want to open?
So there's a lot of questions that go
618
00:43:42.430 --> 00:43:45.180
into the collective decision making
around whether a community is going to
619
00:43:45.180 --> 00:43:50.040
build a bridge. So forest begins with
that and he begins with that as a line
620
00:43:50.040 --> 00:43:54.460
of inquiry and says, how do we now get
a bunch of people together to make a
621
00:43:54.460 --> 00:43:59.150
good decision? And it's a really cool
process. And it reminds me of Owen
622
00:43:59.150 --> 00:44:03.340
Harrison's work on open spaces
technology, which is some of the
623
00:44:03.340 --> 00:44:09.860
original. How do we how do we get self
organized learning environments? And
624
00:44:09.870 --> 00:44:15.050
his story in his book, open spaces was
three weeks before he was dumped. This
625
00:44:15.060 --> 00:44:19.580
association conference where he had
3000 delegates coming, but no speakers
626
00:44:19.580 --> 00:44:23.650
have been booked and no sessions have
been organized and he goes holy great,
627
00:44:23.650 --> 00:44:26.570
what am I going to do? And so he says,
well there's no way I can get speakers
628
00:44:26.570 --> 00:44:29.820
or sessions, so I'm just going to get
the 3000 people to self organized
629
00:44:29.820 --> 00:44:34.340
around topics that interest them. And
in the heart of those two things Forest
630
00:44:34.340 --> 00:44:39.350
Landry's work, there's a lady called
linda must show Hamilton as well who's
631
00:44:39.350 --> 00:44:43.850
Azan none but also an organizational
consultant. And you can understand like
632
00:44:43.850 --> 00:44:48.730
zen is about sort of sitting in paradox,
sitting in ambiguity, sitting in the
633
00:44:48.730 --> 00:44:53.310
space of uncertainty and not rushing in
with a slide deck and a pithy answer.
634
00:44:53.390 --> 00:44:59.290
It's and so I reckon in those three
people you might have three really good
635
00:44:59.290 --> 00:45:01.980
reference points to get you off and
running on this stuff about
636
00:45:01.980 --> 00:45:07.870
facilitation coaching or asking as a
modality versus telling and what it's
637
00:45:07.870 --> 00:45:13.100
done is it's flipped diagnostic selling,
so diagnosed, you referred to
638
00:45:13.100 --> 00:45:18.320
consulting earlier on in this podcast.
So in diagnostic selling the basic
639
00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:21.780
premises of course is if we understand
you enough we'll do business together.
640
00:45:21.790 --> 00:45:25.640
So I want to ask you enough questions.
But you know, let's say you were in a
641
00:45:25.640 --> 00:45:29.580
large pursuit in a like in the SAs corp
or something like that and you were you
642
00:45:29.580 --> 00:45:32.980
were looking for a large piece of work.
Sometimes. What you want to do is you
643
00:45:32.980 --> 00:45:37.460
want to not do diagnostic selling. I
know this sounds uh controversial but
644
00:45:37.460 --> 00:45:40.710
you want to use the content based
networking that you're sort of proposed,
645
00:45:40.720 --> 00:45:45.380
which is kind of like here's what we
know, here's the kind of person we work
646
00:45:45.380 --> 00:45:49.780
with if that's you, let's do business,
which is very different to let us
647
00:45:49.780 --> 00:45:53.930
understand as much about you as
possible. Ah look at these insights
648
00:45:53.930 --> 00:45:58.510
that we've created now let's do
business. And so it's almost it's kind
649
00:45:58.510 --> 00:46:03.430
of flipping the game and for me it's
moving from an orientation of selling
650
00:46:03.430 --> 00:46:08.180
others to an orientation of creating
the conditions where people will buy.
651
00:46:08.190 --> 00:46:12.070
And for me, what thought leadership
does is it creates the conditions that
652
00:46:12.070 --> 00:46:16.530
attract people so they'll buy what you
do and it's giving them the agency to
653
00:46:16.530 --> 00:46:22.780
go, no, thank you. Um Seth Godin wrote
a book. He's written a lot, but one of
654
00:46:22.780 --> 00:46:26.770
the books I really love one of the best
in my opinion was permission marketing
655
00:46:26.780 --> 00:46:30.590
because it took us from a game of,
let's interrupt the hell out of people
656
00:46:30.600 --> 00:46:33.410
to a game of earned the right to talk
to them,
657
00:46:34.580 --> 00:46:38.980
you know, and if you read permission
marketing alongside tribes, which says,
658
00:46:38.990 --> 00:46:42.050
you don't need a lot of people, you
know what I mean? You just need to find
659
00:46:42.050 --> 00:46:45.620
your people, what you'll actually find
is to me, I think this is where I
660
00:46:45.630 --> 00:46:50.380
thought leadership as a, not just a
marketing strategy, but a full business
661
00:46:50.380 --> 00:46:54.500
development process can really go to
town. That was certainly two books that
662
00:46:54.500 --> 00:46:58.290
were fundamental in my early career. Uh
one of the first ones I've read,
663
00:46:58.680 --> 00:47:03.430
content based networking is close. It's
actually an idea that you can use
664
00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:07.900
something like a podcast. Like I am now
to build relationships with people like
665
00:47:07.900 --> 00:47:14.030
I am sitting here talking with you now,
but oftentimes from a B especially BTB
666
00:47:14.040 --> 00:47:17.240
perspective, you can build
relationships with your ideal buyers
667
00:47:17.250 --> 00:47:22.020
and it's not that you finish the
episode and then give them a pitch
668
00:47:22.020 --> 00:47:24.870
because then there, it's not going to
feel great for them and they're gonna
669
00:47:24.870 --> 00:47:28.870
walk away, not having a bad taste in
their mouth, right? But you build a
670
00:47:28.870 --> 00:47:31.570
relationship with them naturally,
they're going to check out your website
671
00:47:31.570 --> 00:47:34.600
and see who you are. And uh if they're
in the market for what you offer,
672
00:47:34.600 --> 00:47:38.530
chances are you've just spent an hour
talking to them showcasing their best
673
00:47:38.530 --> 00:47:41.610
thinking, they're probably gonna think
about you and when they're in the
674
00:47:41.610 --> 00:47:44.200
market, you're probably gonna be in the
consideration. That's kind of the idea
675
00:47:44.200 --> 00:47:48.970
behind it. But I have implications
beyond B two B sales. I mean if you
676
00:47:48.970 --> 00:47:52.870
even if you're job hunting and just
interviewing hiring managers on the
677
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:57.160
marketing manager podcasts, chances are
you're going to land a job really soon
678
00:47:57.170 --> 00:48:01.600
because you're building relationships
by creating content together. That's
679
00:48:01.600 --> 00:48:05.760
kind of the idea behind that though, I
certainly buy into the idea of it's
680
00:48:05.770 --> 00:48:09.050
certainly what we do is sweet fish
media and that we have a very
681
00:48:09.050 --> 00:48:12.250
particular methodology, that
methodology of content based networking
682
00:48:12.250 --> 00:48:15.500
through podcasting. And we present that
it's like this is kind of our thing.
683
00:48:15.510 --> 00:48:18.810
You just need an audio editing shop.
There's a lot of people cheaper in us
684
00:48:18.810 --> 00:48:22.830
shoot. I wrote the whole blog post on
like all of them with all their prices
685
00:48:22.830 --> 00:48:26.300
on it. I'll give it to you and you can
go like there's better providers for
686
00:48:26.300 --> 00:48:30.220
you. I will help you find it or even
give you the advice to do it in house
687
00:48:30.220 --> 00:48:34.050
if you if that's what you want to do.
So. But I've we've certainly found that
688
00:48:34.050 --> 00:48:37.800
it works better. And I like the idea of
trying to blend your thought leadership
689
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:41.620
and essentially having a point of view
and then just presenting that to people
690
00:48:41.620 --> 00:48:44.150
and asking them the question. I think
that's what you're trying to get at.
691
00:48:44.150 --> 00:48:47.700
Two is having letting your thought
leadership present itself and be like,
692
00:48:47.700 --> 00:48:51.340
this is the way we do things. If you'd
like to work with us, that's fantastic.
693
00:48:51.350 --> 00:48:55.990
But if not, then maybe we can help you
find the right place. It's swagger. You
694
00:48:55.990 --> 00:49:00.750
know, it's like brain surgeons don't
get built, don't do billboards,
695
00:49:00.770 --> 00:49:05.320
Cosmetic surgeons might, but a brain
surgeon doesn't what a brain surgeon,
696
00:49:05.330 --> 00:49:10.340
If you're going to put a scalpel in my
mind, I'm not I'm not doing it from
697
00:49:10.340 --> 00:49:14.430
search engine optimization. I'm going
to talk to my general practitioner, I'm
698
00:49:14.430 --> 00:49:17.740
going to talk to someone who's had
surgery. I'm going to read who is the
699
00:49:17.740 --> 00:49:22.750
best surgeon who has published the most
on it, Who's written a book who trains
700
00:49:22.750 --> 00:49:26.340
the other surgeons. And I'm going to go,
right, that's who gets to open my head
701
00:49:26.340 --> 00:49:30.760
with a scalpel. You know, I'm going to
find the person who's, who's got that
702
00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:35.630
reputational positioning. Look, the
other thing about this content stuff is
703
00:49:35.630 --> 00:49:40.860
it's deeply respectful. It's deeply
respectful of who you are and what you
704
00:49:40.860 --> 00:49:46.350
do and not trying to be all things to
all people. It's deeply respectful to
705
00:49:46.350 --> 00:49:49.390
who they are. And the fact that they
should have freedom of choice. And I
706
00:49:49.390 --> 00:49:55.640
think that from, You know, the 90s and
80s and before there was a little bit
707
00:49:55.640 --> 00:50:01.950
of an ugly process around business,
which and the ugly process was if we're
708
00:50:01.950 --> 00:50:04.940
clever enough, you'll do business with
us. If we can trick you enough, you'll
709
00:50:04.940 --> 00:50:09.050
do business with us. And I think any of
us who live in the current era go, you
710
00:50:09.050 --> 00:50:13.490
know what? Our authenticity filters are
so strong. You know, we've seen so many
711
00:50:13.490 --> 00:50:17.950
people in positions of authority just
fall from grace that we go, hey, you
712
00:50:17.950 --> 00:50:21.410
know what to show me your stuff first
and let me decide whether I want to do
713
00:50:21.410 --> 00:50:24.960
business with you. And so I think the
other thing about this content based
714
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:29.870
networking is how is how deeply
respectful it is and that, that can't
715
00:50:29.870 --> 00:50:33.420
be a bad thing, can it like to build
long term trusted commercial
716
00:50:33.420 --> 00:50:37.490
relationships around respect? I go,
that's got to be a good thing. It's
717
00:50:37.490 --> 00:50:41.410
been working well for us. We've been
growing just through sheer relationship
718
00:50:41.410 --> 00:50:43.910
building because even if we know
someone's in the market, I'm not gonna,
719
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:47.950
I'm not gonna try to like persuade them
to be in the market. Are you kidding?
720
00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:50.670
Like if they like us and they're like,
no, we're just not looking at the
721
00:50:50.670 --> 00:50:54.620
podcasting right now, you're like, cool.
And then they quit that job, go to
722
00:50:54.620 --> 00:50:58.800
another job and they're like, hey, this
company is, and then they call us right,
723
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:03.810
It just works. Um, and still, I love
podcasting particularly because then I
724
00:51:03.810 --> 00:51:08.990
can use it as a way to meet fun people
like yourself. You know, I love meeting
725
00:51:08.990 --> 00:51:12.330
the author's behind the books I read
because you get a, such a different
726
00:51:12.340 --> 00:51:15.460
perspective when you get to read it,
wrestle with it. Maybe wrestle with a
727
00:51:15.460 --> 00:51:18.600
few others on the topic and then
actually ask them yourself. Like what
728
00:51:18.600 --> 00:51:22.460
do you mean by this? Tell me more? You
know, uh, one of the true delights of
729
00:51:22.460 --> 00:51:25.560
my job and this, this episode has
actually been a delight. It's been fun
730
00:51:25.560 --> 00:51:29.510
to kind of kick around a lot of ideas
with you. Um, and I have to ask one
731
00:51:29.510 --> 00:51:33.230
last question, is there any so many
topics we've covered and I've wondered
732
00:51:33.230 --> 00:51:37.510
if there's anything else that you wish
you would have added that maybe we
733
00:51:37.510 --> 00:51:45.410
missed? Oh no dan, we could go to so
many places. I do believe that standing
734
00:51:45.410 --> 00:51:54.440
up and speaking in front of a target
rich audience is such a, it cleans you
735
00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:58.400
up really quickly. If you stand in
front of 1000 potential clients and you
736
00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:03.770
bomb you learn really quickly really
quickly. It's like this rapid fire
737
00:52:03.780 --> 00:52:09.930
crucible of personal development and
maybe just exploring what it's like to
738
00:52:09.930 --> 00:52:16.270
be a good speaker. I see too many
thought leaders doing death by survey.
739
00:52:16.850 --> 00:52:21.810
I see too many thought leaders doing
death by PowerPoint and I think what
740
00:52:21.810 --> 00:52:26.470
you want to do is you want to create an
engaging conversation with people
741
00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:31.930
rather than just delivering a
presentation and and that that comes
742
00:52:31.930 --> 00:52:36.250
down to just not what you're saying,
not just what you're doing, but also
743
00:52:36.250 --> 00:52:42.150
who you're being as you turn up as the
messenger for a particular message. And
744
00:52:42.150 --> 00:52:45.020
I think doing some work on that, it's
like personal development, public
745
00:52:45.020 --> 00:52:49.920
speaking thought leadership. They all
come together to help you sort of stand
746
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:56.480
in a place of conviction. Thought
leadership is about you, standing in
747
00:52:56.480 --> 00:52:59.770
your conviction and therefore not
having to convince anybody of anything.
748
00:53:00.150 --> 00:53:04.890
And that's why it integrates so well in
B2B growth, that's why it integrates so
749
00:53:04.890 --> 00:53:08.450
well with marketing and sales divisions
and why it should be integrated and
750
00:53:08.450 --> 00:53:13.770
baked into the whole service offering.
So I love that idea. I'm going to be
751
00:53:14.450 --> 00:53:18.260
probably thinking about this all
weekend and thinking about how we can
752
00:53:18.260 --> 00:53:21.770
be better incorporating our own thought
leadership into the rest of our process.
753
00:53:22.250 --> 00:53:27.160
Um so I have a lot to think about now
matt. This has been a fantastic time.
754
00:53:27.170 --> 00:53:31.870
Learning from you, flushing out these
ideas if people want to learn more
755
00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:35.170
about you and from you like I have in
this episode, where can they go to find
756
00:53:35.170 --> 00:53:41.410
you online? Uh so my personal location
is matt church dot com. So M A T T C H
757
00:53:41.410 --> 00:53:45.960
U R C H dot com. Maybe download my
books, they're free, have a re see how
758
00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:48.500
that works for you and then we'll
connect and for those who want to be
759
00:53:48.500 --> 00:53:51.560
Thought leaders themselves, writing
books and speaking, go to Thought
760
00:53:51.560 --> 00:53:56.770
leaders dot com dot au and you can
begin a journey there. Fantastic again.
761
00:53:56.850 --> 00:53:59.270
Thanks for joining me on GDP growth.
Thanks dan. Also,
762
00:54:01.950 --> 00:54:05.700
for the longest time I was asking
people to leave a review of GDP growth
763
00:54:05.700 --> 00:54:10.120
in apple podcasts, but I realized that
was kind of stupid because leaving a
764
00:54:10.120 --> 00:54:15.240
review is way harder than just leaving
a simple rating. So I'm changing my
765
00:54:15.240 --> 00:54:18.910
tune a bit. instead of asking you to
leave a review, I'm just gonna ask you
766
00:54:18.910 --> 00:54:22.910
to go to beauty growth in apple
podcasts, scroll down until you see the
767
00:54:22.910 --> 00:54:26.530
ratings and reviews section and just
tap the number of stars you want to
768
00:54:26.530 --> 00:54:32.300
give us no review necessary. Super easy.
And I promise it will help us out a ton.
769
00:54:32.310 --> 00:54:36.270
If you want to copy of my book, content
based networking, just shoot me a text
770
00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:40.740
after you leave the rating and I'll
send one your way, text me at 4074 and
771
00:54:40.740 --> 00:54:43.070
I know 33 to 8.