How to Establish a Growth Marketing Team, with Marc Bitanga

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:16.039 --> 00:00:18.640 Welcome back to the B two B growth show. I'm your host for today's 3 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:22.640 episode, Sean Blackburn, with sweet fish media, joined today by Mark Batanga. 4 00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:25.679 He is a CEO over at agent. CEO, Mark, how are 5 00:00:25.679 --> 00:00:28.519 you doing today? I'm doing fantastic. Thanks for having me today, Sean. 6 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:32.439 Absolutely great to have you on the show. Excited about our topic today. 7 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:36.399 We're going to be discussing how to establish a growth marketing team. But 8 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:38.799 before we begin, if you can just tell our listeners a little bit about 9 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:41.759 you, your background and what it is that you guys over at a Gen 10 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:45.039 c o are up to these days? Absolutely so. I've had over twenty 11 00:00:45.079 --> 00:00:50.439 years of digital marketing experience, working for really great companies like Sap Electronic Arts, 12 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:54.399 as well as hut sweet and at Hutsos Director of growth channels, whereas 13 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:59.439 responsible for global custom acquisition with basically a team members in Vancouver, London and 14 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:03.040 Singapore. Uh. Now I'm the CO founder and CEO of Agenco Growth Marketing 15 00:01:03.040 --> 00:01:08.239 Agency based in Canada and uh we specialized in customer acquisition and Legend via paid 16 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:14.040 media, Seo and conversion optensation fantastic. So overall, you know, our 17 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:18.359 topic today how to establish our growth marketing team. Maybe if you could define 18 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:21.879 what it is you guys at Agenco see as the term, you know, 19 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:25.040 growth marketing. It's a hot one, but what do you think that is 20 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:27.879 defined as well? Having been, you know, working in Sass and working 21 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:32.120 with tech companies and working on the agency's side as well, you know growth 22 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:34.280 marketing has, you know, different connotations when when someone brings it up, 23 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:38.040 but I would probably break it down in kind of three phases right. So, 24 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:41.680 for example, traditional marketing was really all about branding and awareness. And, 25 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:44.200 Um, you know, when I'm saying traditional marketing, you know Harken 26 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:47.920 back to you know, as as as early as the late eighties, right 27 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:52.480 where it was all about advertising and commercials and getting awareness and getting people to 28 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:56.239 talk about your brand. Then came the Donna digital marketing over the last you 29 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:59.920 know, Fifteen, twenty years, where it was not just about brand awareness 30 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:04.200 but it's all around, you know, bringing traffic and engagement in sign ups. 31 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:08.159 Growth Marketing is just now an extension of that, where essentially it is 32 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:15.000 the full cycle of awareness, acquisition, revenue, retention referral. Basically what 33 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:17.840 we know as the industry as pirate metrics right, and in some cases the 34 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:24.560 scope extends itself into influencing product features or influencing sales decisions or influencing customer support 35 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:29.800 and customer service. Really I would almost see growth marketing as what most, 36 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:35.319 you know, savvy organizations are doing it as far as it's modern marketing in 37 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:38.520 a point sense. What are some of the ways that that you see these 38 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:42.719 iterations of you know, things that we're doing on the growth marketing side of 39 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:46.599 things that are improvements upon that traditional model? I think one way we think 40 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:52.680 about it is really around compartmentalization, and what I mean by that is essentially, 41 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:55.240 when you're thinking about it from a growth marketing perspective, you're turning everything 42 00:02:55.240 --> 00:02:59.599 into a funnel. So, for example, let's take you know, those 43 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:02.280 metrics again, awareness, acquisition, revenue, retention, referral, each of 44 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:06.759 those are stages within you know, the customer life cycle, if you would, 45 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.439 and essentially, as a growth marketer you're trying to move the person or 46 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:15.080 the company from one stage to another, and so that's just one unique angle 47 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:19.360 as as as a growth marketer would take it to say, okay, great, 48 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:21.960 you know what we've acquired a bunch of people. Now how do we 49 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:24.159 get them to pay? Like, what's the conversion rate from the acquisition stage 50 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:27.879 of the revenue stage? Okay, great, we've got a bunch of paying 51 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:30.199 people. Um, however, we've got, you know, a massive turn 52 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:34.080 issue. How do we make sure we get people to retain, you know, 53 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:37.439 retain those users, etcetera, etcetera. And so that's one way of 54 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:40.360 looking at it. Another difference, I think, from a growth marketing perspective, 55 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:45.240 is really around velocity. Right. So, as a growth marketer, 56 00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:49.439 you're really biased towards the short and mid term as opposed to the long term. 57 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:53.919 Now, before I get into an ideological discussion between growth marketing and brand 58 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:55.719 I want to put it out there I'm a huge fan of brand marketing. 59 00:03:55.759 --> 00:04:00.080 I think it's, you know, an absolute essential for any busines this at 60 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:04.199 any stage. However, as a growth marketer, you really biased towards what 61 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:09.879 is the short midterm goal and in essence, Um, it's anything that's, 62 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:15.520 you know, measurable and attributable to contributing to revenue. So one way to 63 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:20.519 think about that is if your KPI, for example, is I just need 64 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:26.000 x amount of demo requests, it's a matter of what are the tactics that 65 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:29.240 will get us those demo requests? So one way to think about it is 66 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:32.439 from a process perspective, is succeeding through velocity, and what I mean by 67 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:36.639 that is, rather than coming up with an annual plan and saying this is 68 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:39.759 what we're gonna do in q two and this is we're gonna do in q 69 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:43.160 three, growth marketers don't really think about it that way. They break that 70 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:46.240 down into what are we going to do in the next two weeks, not 71 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:48.920 what we're going to do in the next quarter? Right, and the way 72 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:54.279 that I've been able to run my teams and programs in the past has been 73 00:04:54.360 --> 00:05:00.279 really to adopt an agile methodology and, borrowing from developers and software development and 74 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:03.720 Um using essentially sprint planning. And let's say, for example, if you 75 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:08.759 have a particular goal in a quarter, we break that down into the smallest 76 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:13.319 chunks possible that we can achieve in two week chunks. And so visualize this. 77 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:17.800 Imagine you have a massive table or spread beat on the wall and each 78 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:24.720 column is a representation of two weeks sprints. Each row is, in essence, 79 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:28.120 awareness, acquisition, revenue, retention, referral as a growth market or 80 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:32.199 what I would do is essentially planned for those two weeks sprints and uh, 81 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:34.959 you know, I wouldn't plan eight weeks ahead. I'd probably plan four to 82 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:41.360 six weeks ahead maximum. But using that methodology you get a number of things. 83 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:46.639 First and foremost, you get uh movement, meaning it's not this far 84 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:51.279 off project that has um the ability to to have scope creep. It's a 85 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:55.600 matter of within two weeks we're gonna do x and this is going to be 86 00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:59.199 the result and after that we're going to talk about what happened with it and 87 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:01.600 why we six eat it or why we fail. So velocity is number one. 88 00:06:01.959 --> 00:06:05.720 Number two, whenever you plan in that methodology, you actually get to 89 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:10.920 visually see where your priorities as a marketing group are, and you know if 90 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:13.319 you can visualize it on a wall and you see, wow, we have 91 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:18.680 a lot of activities or initiatives around let's say the awareness area, but our 92 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:23.600 biggest issue right now is churn, which is retention. Hey, let's let's 93 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:27.879 kind of rejig this. So growth marketing is a lot more methodical, a 94 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:34.079 lot more short term biased and, in essence, really working towards things that 95 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:40.000 are priorities for the moment as opposed to priorities from a year from now. 96 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:44.120 I like that a lot and it seems like with growth marketing there's there's kind 97 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:47.639 of a better feedback loop, there's better communication because you're seeing these things that 98 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:51.560 are that are more short term goals, like you said, instead of really 99 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:56.839 knowing or not knowing where you're not hitting the market, you're really reviewing these 100 00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:59.120 things, you know, a lot more often, it seems like, because 101 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:00.519 that accurate. What do you say? I would say so. So, 102 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:03.240 for example, let's say, for example, you are working with the team 103 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:06.560 and the team says, Hey, we should work on uh, you know, 104 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:11.560 we should consider these eight projects. The First Lens you would look at 105 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:15.199 as a growth marketer is, first of all, which of those eight projects 106 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:17.680 lead up to the most urgent issues that you're experiencing at the moment? Last 107 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:21.040 number one, number two is out of you know, once you pass that 108 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:26.480 filter, the next question is which one of these will have the highest impact, 109 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:29.920 but also balance that with the ones that we can achieve, you know, 110 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.639 within a two weeks sprint, and generally speaking, you typically biased towards 111 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:36.240 the two weeks sprint because that's the one that will. You know, it's 112 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:41.480 basically always working towards the lowest hanging fruit and eventually you'll you'll you'll kind of 113 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:44.680 stack up and layer the winds. I like that a lot. So have 114 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:49.160 you worked with clients who maybe have never really thought through their goals that way? 115 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:55.639 And I guess my question would be how does one shift into that sort 116 00:07:55.680 --> 00:08:00.240 of growth marketing mindset as opposed to more of the traditional quarterly by east of 117 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:03.959 mindset? Now it's interesting that you that you say that because there's definitely an 118 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:07.720 educational component to it. First and foremost, not every business runs, not 119 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:11.160 every business, not even company you know, thinks of of marketing in this 120 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:15.839 way. That's number one, and number two, you know, whether if 121 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:20.959 you're an in house or whether you're on agency side, there's definitely an influence 122 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:24.879 component to it where it's not like you're just gonna flip the switch overnight. 123 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:28.759 A lot of it has to do with education. To say this is probably 124 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:33.639 the way that we would look at things and here's the reasons why, here 125 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:39.240 the here are the benefits, and incrementally try to infuse that into the marketing 126 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:41.240 planning, if you would. A lot of it is really around framework, 127 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:46.840 and framework is the way that I like to think about framework is it's a 128 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:50.480 way of thinking. It's a way of decision making where you put any challenge 129 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:54.799 using that framework and you you get a certain outcome out of it based on 130 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:58.840 the framework that you just built. So it's not necessarily the flavor that they 131 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:05.320 hactic. It's really a way of operationally thinking, operationally, making a very 132 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:11.399 decisive decisions and making sure you're biasing towards the things that matter most for your 133 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:15.759 program makes sense. Yeah, and you mentioned, you know, kind of 134 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:20.720 growth marketers turn everything into a funnel and uh, and you know doing that 135 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:26.879 in order to identify priorities. What about that thinking helps bring those things to 136 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:31.960 the top? I think first and foremost, it brings up the things that, 137 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:35.039 well, let me take a step back. One of my you know, 138 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:39.039 one one thesis I have is always thinking about, you know, what 139 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:41.200 is your earth killer, and what I mean by that is I think of 140 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:46.679 the Bruce Willis movie aren't getting right and, uh, you know what, 141 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:54.559 there's this there's this massive media that's about to to to smash Earth. Every 142 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:58.000 business and every marketing team has that. You just have to look for it. 143 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:03.080 And what I'm mean by that is every business and every team has at 144 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:07.720 least one, you know, biggest issue they need to address, and it's 145 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:11.840 really around focus and focusing on everything that you can on that one issue at 146 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:16.759 a time. And if with that focus, then once you address that, 147 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:18.039 move that out of the way, then you work towards the next one. 148 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:22.559 So when you're thinking about a funnel in that perspective, so let's think about 149 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:28.320 it from two perspectives. Not every marketer out there or every growth marketer out 150 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:33.639 there owns the whole funnel right. Some of sometimes your job is just retention. 151 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:37.960 Sometimes your job is just a round awareness. It's really around breaking down 152 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:43.799 whatever challenge you have into the smallest chunk possible that you can move. So 153 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:46.279 let me give you a practical example of that. There was one time I 154 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:52.159 was working on with the team and turn was a major issue for us and 155 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.919 rather than looking at it in the traditional way of saying, wow, this 156 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:01.360 you know we have an issue with turn, let's perform research, figure out 157 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.840 everybody's challenges with turn and address every single one. That's not the way that 158 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:09.320 we pursued it at the time. The way we pursued at the time was, 159 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.919 while we have a massive amount of turn. Let's perform some research and 160 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:16.639 find out what are the key reasons why? and rather than saying, Hey, 161 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:22.720 let's address these eight key reasons why, we just chose one and we 162 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.600 just chose one to work on, and at that particular time I think it 163 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:31.159 was billing, for example. Let's just use that as an example. Once 164 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:37.279 we addressed the billing issue, whether it was just messaging or because it was 165 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:39.840 just difficult to get through, once we moved out of that other way, 166 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.960 then we asked ourselves, okay, did we make a meaningful enough change that 167 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:48.399 we can address the seventh issue, or do we work on something else upwards 168 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:52.039 in the funnel? Right? And so that's that's the way of thinking of 169 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:56.720 it and turning it from a funnel perspective. It's it's not just a matter 170 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:00.480 of moving it from one stage or another, it's also breaking down the challenges 171 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:03.399 you have in the smallest bite sized chunks that you can work on, as 172 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:07.080 opposed to being overwhelmed by by all the potential things that you could work on. 173 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:13.120 It's story time again, and we're talking about search engine marketing. Today. 174 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:16.399 I'm going to tell you about a challenge within Pelican cases B two B 175 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:20.679 division. Pelican needed a partner with deep B two B expertise that could get 176 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:26.799 them a massive bumping leads from their paper clip campaigns without increasing spin. 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Yeah, 185 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:09.919 you can build momentum as you're starting to get going and and, like you 186 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.840 said earlier, even the lower hanging fruit getting those quicker winds. So that 187 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:18.039 makes a lot of sense. Here in the twenty one century, as marketers, 188 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:20.159 we are inundated with just a tons and tons of data and it does 189 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:24.120 make those priorities sometimes tough to look at. How have you approached, as 190 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:28.039 a growth marketer, how to make the best decisions with maybe unclear or or 191 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:33.639 a lack of data? Sure it's it's probably best illustrated through a couple of 192 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:37.720 examples. So let's take brand awareness, for example. Brand awareness is, 193 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:41.279 uh, you know, one of those things that is very difficult to measure 194 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:46.039 or really expensive to measure. So, in a traditional sense, when you're 195 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:50.240 trying to measure a brand awareness as a brand, typically it's done through surveys, 196 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:54.080 where it's aided and UN aided brand recall surveys, which requires a lot 197 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:58.039 of money, a lot of time, a lot of resources right which many 198 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:01.960 need businesses elth there either don't have the time or money or patients to do. 199 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:05.159 But rather than saying hey, you know what, we're not going to 200 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:11.039 measure brand awareness, there's always proxy data they use. So, as an 201 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.320 example, for as a proxy data point for Brand Awares, you can use 202 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:18.519 things such as website visits, such as social media mentions. These are the 203 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:22.399 proxies that we would use for brand awareness. So an example of a practical 204 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:24.960 application of that was, at one point in time, working with a particular 205 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:30.799 brand we were seeing plateauing results and, you know, we were we were 206 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:35.080 unsure why, and so we performed, you know, about a month's worth 207 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:39.480 of analysis of every potential angle we could look at, and one of the 208 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:43.440 things that we saw was we had plateau Ng brand awareness using the proxy metric 209 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:48.639 of website visits through every single country that we were looking at. And so 210 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:54.200 it in essence, it gave us enough ammunition, if if you would, 211 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:58.480 or enough evidence, if you would, to pursue that even further. So 212 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:03.559 that's one example of using proxy metrics to to to measure initiatives. Another example 213 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:09.000 as media attribution. Media Attribution or multi touch attribution is one of those things 214 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:13.799 that every single executive wants, uh wants to find out about, meaning you're 215 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:18.919 spending, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars on 216 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:22.159 on your media plan. They want to know what works and UH, and 217 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:26.000 if you've worked with any executives like I have, they want to know that 218 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:30.120 one thing that works out of the twenty things that you're doing right, which 219 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:33.000 is almost impossible to do, where's the silver bullet? Right, yeah, 220 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.639 where's the celebrate? What's you know, hey mark or Hay marketing team. 221 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.480 Um, I don't want you doing you know, we're spending millions doll owners 222 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:41.840 on those twenty things. I just want you to spend it on one thing, 223 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:46.519 right, right, which which anyone who's who's been in that, in 224 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:48.360 that position, probably you know they're they're probably thinking themselves, oh my God, 225 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:52.159 that's that's that's that's such a hard, you know, question answer. 226 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:56.120 Well, in one particular program rather than saying, Hey, we're gonna take 227 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:00.759 a look at multi touch attribution, we purposely said to ourselves we're going to 228 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:03.039 only look at last click attribution. And I know many of you are saying 229 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:07.200 mark, last click attribution doesn't take a look at the full funnel. No, 230 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.559 it doesn't, and I'm not saying it does. All I'm saying is 231 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:15.200 we're going to maximize last click attribution until we plateau, and then it gives 232 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:18.679 us an excuse to look further from that. Because guess what, using that 233 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:26.679 in particular measurement method helped hoot sweet grow forty year on year just using that 234 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:32.320 one metric, right, and only when we started seeing slowing of growth then 235 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:36.320 we started expanding into multi touch attribution to say, well, let's look beyond 236 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:40.559 the last click so in that particular example, you let's rewind back. Let's 237 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:42.320 say, for example, you know, we're in that situation again, to 238 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:47.960 say, Um Ay marketing team, you know, justify your media spand or 239 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:52.120 marketing their activities. And well, scenario a says we should be spending on 240 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:56.240 this, scenarios B says we should spending be spending on this. You know, 241 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.759 when you're taking a look at different different revision methods, it tends to 242 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:03.440 cloud or fog your decision making. In a sense, you have to almost 243 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:06.279 put your blinders on and be decisive and saying we're going to measure it this 244 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:11.200 way until it stops working right. And so really that's what you mean by 245 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:17.160 making the best decisions with murky data. I'm not saying whenever there's analytics involved, 246 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:21.039 there's always going to be a Gottcha. Right. There's always gonna be 247 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:25.279 a Gotcha, meaning like hey, you know what, that was collected using 248 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:29.680 Um, this particular methodology. And here's the issue why you wouldn't want to 249 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:33.960 ticulate. No, it really kind of just clears the table and says we're 250 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:38.119 measuring it this one way and until we stop seeing growth, we're gonna keep 251 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:42.720 measuring it this way right. Yeah, absolutely, it's and almost too simple, 252 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:48.319 but it's in a way it's not, because it's it's getting results and 253 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:51.599 focusing on what's working and then if it's not working, then you move to 254 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:55.599 the next thing. Like yeah, it's really it's really, in essence, 255 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:02.359 the solution to analysis paralysis, because time and time again I've been in marketing 256 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:06.400 meetings and marketing strategy meetings where, you know, there's always this well, 257 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:08.519 if you looked at it this way, it's you can, you know, 258 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:12.720 theory. Really, it's theory. You can really kill a lot of productive 259 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:18.880 cycles by continuing to explore the what is. It's a matter of just being 260 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:21.240 decisive and saying we're going to look at it through this Lens. I know 261 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:26.680 you disagree, but we're getting growth out of it and then until that starts 262 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:30.519 to waiver, starts to no longer hold water, then we'll expand from that. 263 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:34.119 Sure, I like that a lot. I really think that's a powerful 264 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:38.920 mind shift for for marketers because, like you said, uh, the the 265 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:44.559 amount of options that are available to us these days is somewhat overwhelming. So, 266 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:47.839 on that note, one of the things that's kind of hot right now, 267 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:51.440 and I think only going to continue to grow. Is Ai? You 268 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:56.359 know what's what's a growth marketers, you know perspective on Ai and automation and 269 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:00.200 you know how to use it. And is it the answer for scaling teams? 270 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:07.160 That's a that's a very difficult question with with not necessarily the clearest of 271 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:10.319 answers right now. Right, let me throw up a few, a few 272 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:15.839 points for you. Artificial intelligence is here and it will only get more ubiquitous 273 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:21.799 as it goes number right, as marketers, we will be pressured to make 274 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:25.960 the best decisions as possible and if it's aided by, let's say, a 275 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:30.200 much more valid method, using automated means than great. You know, use 276 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.720 it as a tool. But here's a few things to think about. Right. 277 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:41.319 For many reasons, many businesses can't rely on AI. Ai requires a 278 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.599 massive amount of data. Right, Um, let me let me paint you 279 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:48.440 a little bit of a picture. There was this project that I was working 280 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:52.039 on. It, who see, where we were exploring data driven attribution for 281 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:55.480 and we were leaning on a company called Adometry, at the time, a 282 00:19:55.559 --> 00:20:00.039 dormitory, as a predecessor to Um, the multi touch attribution that's with and 283 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.480 Google. Google acquired them about a year after we start working with them and 284 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:08.359 we were pumping millions and millions of dollars into our media spend and going through 285 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:12.640 this perfect concept with a dormitory, and at the end of it, after 286 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:15.680 a year's worth of work, they came back to us and said, mark, 287 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:21.240 you don't have enough data to make this model valid. Nothing of that. 288 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:26.160 Millions of dollars to spend was going through not only our media plan but 289 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:32.000 the data is flowing through their systems and they still could not make a valid 290 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:37.480 decision. And that was a global business. Imagine if you're just a small 291 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:41.960 startup. You do not have enough data for data driven attribution, as an 292 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.720 example, so many platforms you may not have enough data, number one. 293 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:48.720 Number two, for ai to work you have to have clean data. Not 294 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:53.039 many businesses out there can say all of my systems are integrated well and that 295 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:56.359 it's valid data. That's number two. So those are things that you have 296 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.480 to think about, meaning like it's a hot topic, is the flavor of 297 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:03.079 the day. It does have a future, but it's not, you know, 298 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:07.640 the the the solution per se, when when you mean by solution is 299 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.279 just because you're gonna buy this technology, whether it's you know, in your 300 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:15.079 analytics or whether it's your media management platform, doesn't mean it's going to solve 301 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:18.559 all the world's problems, right, and you have to really assess for yourself 302 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:23.319 whether you even have enough data to pump through it. Another example of Um 303 00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:30.000 Ai Um kind of going astray a little bit is, for example, in 304 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.279 Google today, there, and in many platforms, there's cost per acquisition bidding. 305 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:37.799 In essence, it's saying, you know what we're we're not going to 306 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.359 mess around with testing, we're not gonna mess around with hypotheses. I'm just 307 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:45.519 gonna Plug in a nice neat number that says I only want a total of 308 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.759 a hundred dollars, let's say, for every lead that I get. And 309 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:52.599 whether it's facebook or Google or any other platform, you guys figure it out. 310 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:56.240 A couple of things that are challenging there. Number one is, again 311 00:21:56.400 --> 00:22:00.319 you're still going to need a lot of data to pump through that. So 312 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.920 it's either going to be a lot of money pumping through that or a lot 313 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:08.880 of time, right, something lots of right. Yeah, exactly. You. 314 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:11.079 You. You either have a lot of money or a lot of time, 315 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:15.079 right, and so that's that's one thing. It's it's not. You 316 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:18.880 know, if, if you are fortunate to work in a high volume business, 317 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.200 then great, you're you're not gonna have these challenges. But here's the 318 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:25.079 second you may get the result, but you may not know why how you 319 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:30.000 got there right. So, for example, one of the things that that 320 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:33.920 kind of makes me cringe is when I work with my team and we, 321 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:37.519 let's say, perform an audit and, uh, we have a particular campaign 322 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:41.200 that has, I'm just gonna throw a nice round number out there, six 323 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:48.359 ads for a particular ad group. Six right, and you know they're just 324 00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:52.559 letting the system figure out which one of these ads work. Well, you're 325 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:56.319 not really learning. All it is is just saying, okay, this one 326 00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:57.720 seems to be working, therefore we're gonna pump it. But it doesn't tell 327 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:00.480 you why, because you didn't really structure it in a certain way. You 328 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:04.799 didn't structure it like an a B test. So you're getting the short term 329 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.759 win of the result, but you're missing out on the long term win of 330 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:12.920 the learning that you could potentially apply in other ways considerate better than that. 331 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:18.960 So back again to your question of you know, is Ai the answer? 332 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.920 I wouldn't even say AI is the answer. Ai Is the tool, but 333 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:26.920 you just need to know how to wield that tool. It seems like you 334 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.559 guys at Agen CEO obviously have a lot of you know, the growth marketing 335 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:33.559 perspective figured out. You know, when you're looking to bring someone, say, 336 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.039 on your team, or even if you know you're advising clients of who 337 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:40.319 to put onto their teams, what's some of the things that you're looking at 338 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:44.039 from a mindset standpoint when you're looking to hire a growth marketing team member? 339 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:48.000 In essence, Um, really an analytical background. You know, being analytical 340 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:52.240 is is very, very hard to teach right and it's kind of a characteristic 341 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:59.720 of it's it's really a characteristic of curiosity that just needs to be satisfied right, 342 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:04.000 creative curiosity at that right. And so Um, the one way that 343 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:08.000 I've found that that really works, Um, in terms of trying to find 344 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:12.319 the best team members with a growth marketing mentality is having an analytical background. 345 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:17.920 And it even goes right down to the interview process. And hat tip to 346 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:19.680 Dean Brookstone, who was one of my first team members, that he would 347 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.720 see he was actually one of the folks that developed this methodology. But we 348 00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:29.079 had this method of this interview methodology we'd like to call happy scoops, and 349 00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:33.279 happy scoops was essentially a live case study that we would bring people in to 350 00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:38.319 interview for our growth team. And it was a case study, Um, 351 00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:42.160 that you couldn't study. It wasn't a take home exam. It was live 352 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:48.200 scenarios that would it would literally be here's a chart of metrics of all these 353 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:53.039 different marketing channels. Tell us which one is under performing in why? Or 354 00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:56.119 you know, hey, you need to drive down your cost back position by 355 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:00.400 this much. Here's what the funnel looks like from multiple channels. What we 356 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.720 you do, and one of the reasons why we called it happy scoops was 357 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:08.880 because it put a really nice, happy veneer over a very brutal analytical industry 358 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:12.440 process where the case study was actually, at the time, it was really 359 00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:17.880 funny. The case study was at the time was you're running a global screen 360 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:26.279 distribution e commerce company, and so we would put people through this ringer of 361 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:29.599 of an interview process and and and keep in mind this is not being mean 362 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:34.519 spear or anything. It's really to really assess your analytical capabilities and it really 363 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:38.480 told us a lot about the person going through that interview process because, number 364 00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:41.880 one, we weren't looking for right answers, like, don't get me wrong, 365 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:44.240 and you give us the right answer would be, you know, ecstatic, 366 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.519 but it was really around. How did you get to that answer, 367 00:25:47.559 --> 00:25:52.319 even if it's wrong, it was what is the thought process? And so 368 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:57.279 the reason why that's so important is because I'm finding in today's Day and age, 369 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:02.039 and I would put myself in this category once in a while, all 370 00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:06.440 marketers have a sense of bias. Right, this is the best practice to 371 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:11.519 do something well. Best Practices in marketing tend to really fade really, really 372 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:15.920 quickly because of cycles of marketing, right. And so when you remove those 373 00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:21.079 best practices, what you really really need to have is creative curiosity and analytical 374 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:25.680 capability and, almost like a childlike wonder to say, well, I know 375 00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:30.759 this is counterintuitive, but I think we should test this. Right. And 376 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:36.000 so having that analytical background, with that creative curiosity and without, you know, 377 00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:40.359 in essence, those those marketing biases, though, that's really the elements 378 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:44.400 or the ingredients to look for in any growth marketing team member. And you'd 379 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:47.279 be surprised, you know, the backgrounds that they come from. I've had 380 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.000 people that have worked for me that have, you know, have been part 381 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.960 of my team where one person had a journalism background, one person was a 382 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:57.519 data analyst, another person was, you know, a copywriter, but they 383 00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:02.039 were just, you know, into electually, very curious and really wanted to 384 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:06.799 figure out the answers interesting. I love that and you know I love that. 385 00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:11.079 You guys are practitioners Um at a Gen CEO and I really appreciate your 386 00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:14.880 perspective, you know, on how to establish a growth marketing team. You 387 00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:18.799 know if someone's listening and if they really want to connect with you or or 388 00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:22.079 Agentio, what's the best way for them to find you? In connect you 389 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:23.920 can find a Genteo at a Gen CEO dot C A. That's a G 390 00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:27.200 E N C I o Dot c a, or you can check out the 391 00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:29.200 growing pains podcast.