April 4, 2021

How PandaDoc Does Demand Generation

On the latest installment of our deep dive into demand generation, Lesley Crews talks with Eugene Zaremba, Director of Demand Generation at PandaDoc, and Travis Tyler, Content Specialist at PandaDoc.

They discuss: 

  • PandaDoc's revenue team structure
  • PandaDoc's growth stages in demand gen
  • Important lessons learned in the past two years

Are you getting every B2B Growth episode in your favorite podcast player?

If not, you can easily subscribe & search past episodes here.

You can also find us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740 Yeah. 2 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:08.900 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Leslie Cruise with Sweet Fish Media. 3 00:00:08.910 --> 00:00:13.520 Today we will be continuing our deep dive into demand generation. And I'm so 4 00:00:13.520 --> 00:00:17.840 excited to be joined today by Eugene Zaremba, Director of Demand Generation 5 00:00:17.840 --> 00:00:22.750 of Panda Doc and Travis Tyler, content specialist at Panda Doc and co host of 6 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:27.250 the customer engagement lab. Um, Eugene, I learned so much in our pre call alone 7 00:00:27.250 --> 00:00:31.390 from you. So I'm so excited to have you on the podcast too. Just share your 8 00:00:31.390 --> 00:00:34.900 knowledge with our audience. I think they're going to gain so much from you. 9 00:00:34.900 --> 00:00:38.960 So, Eugene Travis, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, Leslie. 10 00:00:38.970 --> 00:00:44.360 Absolutely. I would just like to say I am here to be Eugene's hype man. He is 11 00:00:44.360 --> 00:00:49.240 the demand gen expert. But I'm excited to be here and talk about how our 12 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:53.830 content team of paradox works well with Eugene and what he's doing every day 13 00:00:53.840 --> 00:01:01.090 from my side, I'll try to share as much as I can during this time and sorry for 14 00:01:01.090 --> 00:01:05.160 my English. I'm not a native speaker, but I hope it works. Your English is 15 00:01:05.160 --> 00:01:10.350 great. You're good. So Eugene, you said that you've been working on demand. Gen 16 00:01:10.350 --> 00:01:14.340 Strategies for Panda Doc, for I think you said five years. Is that right? 17 00:01:14.350 --> 00:01:20.120 Yeah. In July, it will be my sierra. Wow, that's awesome. So for anyone 18 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:23.830 listening, who might be curious? Can you just start off by sharing a little 19 00:01:23.830 --> 00:01:29.530 bit about the overall organizational structure of your team and kind of how 20 00:01:29.530 --> 00:01:33.670 demand gen fits into that overall revenue team at Panda? Doc and Travis 21 00:01:33.670 --> 00:01:39.580 feel free to jump in here as well. Yeah, so I can share overall our demand 22 00:01:39.590 --> 00:01:43.940 generation team works and overall market and teams structure. Uh, right 23 00:01:43.940 --> 00:01:52.280 now, our demand generation team is five people for working in the dark. And we 24 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:58.800 have an army of freelancers who are helping us with different tasks. So 25 00:01:58.810 --> 00:02:04.830 Internal team is mostly focusing on inbound right now. Traffic. We have a 26 00:02:04.830 --> 00:02:09.650 seo specialists who are promoting us in Google. We have paid specialists who 27 00:02:09.650 --> 00:02:15.420 are promoting us in BBC who are making us PTC and promoting us on Facebook. 28 00:02:15.420 --> 00:02:21.260 LinkedIn and we have that analytics manager who help us to measure 29 00:02:21.260 --> 00:02:25.910 everything, drive conversions, make a B test and so on. And as I mentioned, we 30 00:02:25.910 --> 00:02:31.290 have an American writers who are helping us with different tasks. Link 31 00:02:31.290 --> 00:02:36.690 building, outreach, content, preparation, affiliate stuff, some 32 00:02:36.690 --> 00:02:42.600 project management stuff. So it's our current structure and we are growing. I 33 00:02:42.600 --> 00:02:50.050 think by the end of the year, we plan to hire up to 67 people to turn our 34 00:02:50.060 --> 00:02:54.800 demand. Generation efforts were not only focused on inbound as it's 35 00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:00.330 happening right now, but also why they're our responsibility. So to start 36 00:03:00.340 --> 00:03:05.720 growing brand awareness more focused on sales enablement and overall on sales 37 00:03:05.720 --> 00:03:10.000 corporation. And I think by the end of the year we have learned to start 38 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:15.850 focusing on our customers. We do it right now, but not quite active. So in 39 00:03:15.850 --> 00:03:23.950 some plants we have start shot creating content showing ads, uh, customers to, 40 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:30.110 like work on retention on different customer features and so on. Uh, it's 41 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:38.150 our team and overall marketing team is also growing. Uh, we have different 42 00:03:38.150 --> 00:03:43.390 departments with whom we work Quite close. Uh, we have engagement team 43 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:48.940 where Travis is also working. Guys, we have a lot of for projects. One of them, 44 00:03:48.940 --> 00:03:54.470 for example, you took right now, we are preparing a different kind of videos 45 00:03:54.470 --> 00:04:01.380 for YouTube to show them in Ed's payrolls, posters and so on. We have 46 00:04:01.380 --> 00:04:08.690 brand team. They're responsible for our website and content. And we have a lot 47 00:04:08.690 --> 00:04:15.080 of new teams who were like established, maybe during the last six months, 12 48 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:20.430 months. They are working on partners to help grow it. We're building a T M 49 00:04:20.430 --> 00:04:25.890 department. We started building PR. We build them, going to market strategy. 50 00:04:25.900 --> 00:04:31.140 So these initiatives are quite new. So we'll see. Hope every single government 51 00:04:31.150 --> 00:04:36.210 they think. Travis free to correct me? No, that that pretty much That pretty 52 00:04:36.210 --> 00:04:40.310 much sums it up. You know, paradox is definitely a company that's in kind of 53 00:04:40.310 --> 00:04:43.680 a growth mode. We're no longer considering ourselves really a startup. 54 00:04:43.690 --> 00:04:47.500 By the end of the year, we're planning to have it around 600 employees. We 55 00:04:47.500 --> 00:04:52.980 just hit the 500 mark. So we're our North star right now, is, you know, 100 56 00:04:52.980 --> 00:04:59.140 r r. And it's an exciting organization to be a part of. And a big driver of 57 00:04:59.140 --> 00:05:05.530 that growth really stems from Eugene, uh, and all the work that goes into our 58 00:05:05.530 --> 00:05:10.320 demand generation efforts here. Panda. Doc. So, yeah, Eugene is lucky enough 59 00:05:10.320 --> 00:05:14.730 to be a part of a funnel meeting every week where his feet get held to the 60 00:05:14.730 --> 00:05:20.720 fire and all of our revenue leaders are like Eugene, where are all these leads? 61 00:05:20.730 --> 00:05:24.630 Are we hitting our goals? Are we hitting our marks? And so we can 62 00:05:24.630 --> 00:05:28.290 definitely dive into that a little bit later. But I don't envy Eugene. I get 63 00:05:28.290 --> 00:05:33.330 to do the fun stuff and, uh, you know, he really makes the metric happen. Yeah, 64 00:05:33.340 --> 00:05:37.950 it's really cool to see how Panda Doc does demand generation. I think I've 65 00:05:37.950 --> 00:05:42.570 talked to a lot of people who are in smaller organizations and then startup 66 00:05:42.570 --> 00:05:45.810 organizations so they don't have that extensive revenue team, and they don't 67 00:05:45.810 --> 00:05:51.480 have that connection. All they really have is, you know, one person doing 68 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:54.110 kind of marketing one person doing sales, and they're kind of trying to 69 00:05:54.110 --> 00:05:56.860 mix together, and it's like, Well, there's demanded in there somewhere. 70 00:05:56.870 --> 00:05:59.660 But it's really cool to see how panda Doc has grown so much. And you guys 71 00:05:59.660 --> 00:06:05.940 actually have a team for this specific area. So, yeah, I mean, we talked 72 00:06:05.950 --> 00:06:11.420 previously about how the pandemic alone affected the old ways of demand. Gen. 73 00:06:11.420 --> 00:06:17.140 So can you just share some of the ways that some of the most important lessons 74 00:06:17.150 --> 00:06:21.060 in demand gen that you and your team learned in the past two years alone. 75 00:06:21.440 --> 00:06:29.140 Yeah, sure, I'll try. So, uh, as you mentioned the world pandemic, a lot of 76 00:06:29.150 --> 00:06:34.250 actions started beginning in demand generation since the beginning of the 77 00:06:34.250 --> 00:06:40.680 pandemic, I can bring some examples. Overall, Underdog demand generation 78 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:47.690 strategy. Its core part foundation was built on organic search. Seo, it was 79 00:06:47.690 --> 00:06:53.020 our first channel. Uh, it's how we've grown from zero to around half a 80 00:06:53.030 --> 00:06:59.510 million visitors per month. Uh, this organic search with Seo and, uh, one of 81 00:06:59.520 --> 00:07:06.350 part One of the parts of our strategy was to power as much as possible. So 82 00:07:06.350 --> 00:07:13.230 right now, each month, we are searched by around 200 K keepers per month. And 83 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:20.180 since the pandemic started, a lot of attempts started to change. I remember 84 00:07:20.180 --> 00:07:25.870 what it was. March, April. We see growth in some segments in some intent. 85 00:07:25.880 --> 00:07:30.200 Quite impressive. Quite huge. A good example can be electronic signature 86 00:07:30.200 --> 00:07:36.750 cluster 13, 2nd part of march. Electronic signature keywords have 87 00:07:36.760 --> 00:07:42.040 thousands of them, uh, started growing up significantly, some of them growing 88 00:07:42.050 --> 00:07:47.770 five times per month. Some uh, six or even 10 times per month. And in some 89 00:07:47.770 --> 00:07:54.340 countries, uh, intent was, like, really impressive. Especially comparing, for 90 00:07:54.340 --> 00:08:00.070 example, February to April and, uh, like electronic signature has grown up 91 00:08:00.070 --> 00:08:06.140 significantly. And this trend continues growing. It was flat for some months in 92 00:08:06.150 --> 00:08:10.320 autumn, in the beginning of winter, February March. We also see some, like 93 00:08:10.320 --> 00:08:15.570 positive movement right now, and vice versa. Some intent was decreased. It 94 00:08:15.570 --> 00:08:22.640 went down in a one inch. I can provide an example of, uh, cluster quarrels. We 95 00:08:22.640 --> 00:08:27.910 have some keywords. Uh, not some. A lot of keywords without quotes, like world 96 00:08:27.910 --> 00:08:33.980 software, quote templates, and so on. In April, this intent decreased around 97 00:08:33.980 --> 00:08:40.659 three times. Overall, it was restored in summer, but, uh, for us, for the one 98 00:08:40.659 --> 00:08:45.540 generation it was there were a lot of changes in an attempt. Some are 99 00:08:45.550 --> 00:08:50.120 significantly up to 10 times some down around three times and, you know, 100 00:08:50.130 --> 00:08:55.050 different time Mint of intent is searched by different types of people. 101 00:08:55.060 --> 00:08:59.660 So if we speak about proposals, proposals are mostly surged by sales 102 00:08:59.660 --> 00:09:04.700 people, mostly a relative anyway. Job titles across assertion, but sales, 103 00:09:04.710 --> 00:09:10.420 primary and electronic signatures. It's a very white topic. Search almost by 104 00:09:10.430 --> 00:09:16.560 everybody in the world, and we immediately saw that our that leads 105 00:09:16.570 --> 00:09:22.710 with different job titles also changed a lot. We had immediately much more, uh, 106 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:27.340 some new job roles, like revenue specialists and so on. And we have 107 00:09:27.340 --> 00:09:32.300 degrees in some sales holes. For example, sales managers starting 108 00:09:32.300 --> 00:09:37.300 pandemic. We have decreasing them and eat all influence. Our sales channel we 109 00:09:37.300 --> 00:09:42.480 need. We need to restructure how we work with some type of leads, which 110 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:47.560 guarantees we work, how and when we send emails and make calls, and so on. 111 00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:52.890 So during the start of the pandemic, there were a lot of changes of intent. 112 00:09:52.890 --> 00:09:58.960 And it's one of the things I want to mention that like we had it and as our 113 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:04.740 strategy as I mentioned, we build a strong foundation on targeting hundreds, 114 00:10:04.740 --> 00:10:10.950 thousands of keywords. We have a huge change of contempt, and we needed to 115 00:10:10.950 --> 00:10:16.310 change a lot of processes and organization around it. It's learning 116 00:10:16.310 --> 00:10:19.850 when I can provide and as a learning. For example, what we saw during 117 00:10:19.850 --> 00:10:27.000 Pandemic was that one where people went working from home and we had some 118 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:33.860 systems, uh, systems we use for personalization systems. We used for 119 00:10:33.860 --> 00:10:41.780 targeting people that were built by based targeting or based Overall, I 120 00:10:41.790 --> 00:10:48.280 based strategy and, uh, accuracy of I p based method targeting and 121 00:10:48.280 --> 00:10:52.540 personalization. It's decreased immediately. So I remember a second 122 00:10:52.540 --> 00:10:58.730 part of March and April. We had some, uh, in the curious e as in EBS, we try 123 00:10:58.730 --> 00:11:06.300 to deliver, as in some overall, what we get on, sign up what we get on website. 124 00:11:06.310 --> 00:11:12.710 We saw it and we we tried to also to change some processes. So we stopped 125 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:18.270 using I'd waste targeting for some strategies something to start to 126 00:11:18.270 --> 00:11:23.580 mentally some change. So we have tried to use cookie based targeting in some 127 00:11:23.590 --> 00:11:28.680 networks we tried to use grow across device targeting. I cannot say it 128 00:11:28.690 --> 00:11:35.180 worked ideally, but anyway, we saw changes around it that work from for 129 00:11:35.190 --> 00:11:40.790 what we have from for like, approach changed a lot for us. And, uh, we 130 00:11:40.790 --> 00:11:46.630 changed our sign up after it. We changed how we buy some else on some 131 00:11:46.630 --> 00:11:52.950 channels. So also an example can provide starting pandemic. Facebook and 132 00:11:52.950 --> 00:11:59.050 LinkedIn started working for us. Better it, we saw a decrease in some channels 133 00:11:59.050 --> 00:12:03.900 which use a GPS targeting but for example, Facebook on them. Performance 134 00:12:03.900 --> 00:12:09.550 possibility to receive overall became much better. And we had some momentum 135 00:12:09.550 --> 00:12:15.000 success and, uh, starting pandemic started trying to leverage in these 136 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:19.910 channels, and it still continues. So without pandemic, I think we want to 137 00:12:19.910 --> 00:12:24.570 start so active users of Facebook and blending. I just want to jump in here 138 00:12:24.570 --> 00:12:28.610 real quick. So to take it back to something you said pretty early on, 139 00:12:28.610 --> 00:12:34.700 Eugene, we're at half a million website visitors per month now. No. Right now 140 00:12:34.700 --> 00:12:41.720 we have more than a million 200 K, maybe per month right now, but 500 k 141 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.720 per month. We reached only without being searched. Right now, we added 142 00:12:45.730 --> 00:12:50.710 much more channels like we have, uh, see paid Social affiliate network and 143 00:12:50.710 --> 00:12:55.420 so on. But our foundation. When we hit first half of million users visitors 144 00:12:55.420 --> 00:12:59.310 per month, it was on there getting search. Wow. So I mean, for people 145 00:12:59.310 --> 00:13:03.810 listening, that's those are like B two c numbers. I mean, that's pretty crazy 146 00:13:03.810 --> 00:13:06.400 to think about how many people are coming to the Paradox website, and I 147 00:13:06.400 --> 00:13:10.290 think it might be of interest to our listeners as well to find out like how 148 00:13:10.290 --> 00:13:13.320 the heck did we do that? Like, how did we get there? How did we get to that 149 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:17.520 point? Um, you've been here for five years. I've been here for two years and 150 00:13:17.520 --> 00:13:21.980 I've never worked in an organization that has so much inbound traffic. And I 151 00:13:21.980 --> 00:13:26.480 just want to like, I guess have you shared with the audience a little bit 152 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:31.650 more about the overarching strategy? I know we talked about it in our pre call. 153 00:13:32.040 --> 00:13:37.980 You know, the Eastern European push for S e o the Belarusian machines of having 154 00:13:37.980 --> 00:13:43.340 some really talented folks on your end really harness, You know, in the 2000 155 00:13:43.340 --> 00:13:49.680 and 10 on this strategy and this approach of just owning organic search. 156 00:13:49.690 --> 00:13:53.950 And is that how we got to this point? I mean, what what would you say to folks 157 00:13:53.950 --> 00:13:58.590 who are like, I want a million visitors to my website? Yeah, I'll try to 158 00:13:58.590 --> 00:14:04.930 provide as several strategies to give some details. So overall, our strategy 159 00:14:04.940 --> 00:14:12.420 is to create content that will meet users inquiry and provide the best, 160 00:14:12.430 --> 00:14:17.390 like answer to the Squire. So we'll try to create, really hear a content as it 161 00:14:17.390 --> 00:14:24.950 called on user search and user inquiry and uh, when we I can give you an 162 00:14:24.950 --> 00:14:31.060 example, like when we find a key words we want to be in the top of, uh, search 163 00:14:31.060 --> 00:14:36.880 engines Google, Bing, Yahoo and so on. So we analyze what is on top, and we 164 00:14:36.880 --> 00:14:41.560 understand whether we can create something better than the first place. 165 00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:47.340 So it can be if we speak about questions. Somebody is looking for a 166 00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:53.800 question like Is Amateur is my signature legal in Canada or electronic 167 00:14:53.800 --> 00:14:58.130 signatures legal in Canada. It's an example of such inquiry, and we try to 168 00:14:58.130 --> 00:15:03.290 understand what is on the first position, usually on questions that can 169 00:15:03.300 --> 00:15:08.180 be, for example, who are already in an answer to this Querrey. And we try to 170 00:15:08.180 --> 00:15:13.530 understand whether we can write something that will be more useful for 171 00:15:13.530 --> 00:15:19.800 a user if we can. We do it. If not, so we just give this inquiry. So I just 172 00:15:19.800 --> 00:15:23.840 typed in an example just now, just to see if what you're talking about rings 173 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:28.080 true. So like a question. You're calling it a query, but a question 174 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:32.300 somebody might right into Google how to write a business proposal. We are the 175 00:15:32.300 --> 00:15:38.850 absolute number one spot for a blog article we wrote in January 2020 10 176 00:15:38.850 --> 00:15:42.710 steps how to write a business proposal were even above hubspot, the king of 177 00:15:42.710 --> 00:15:49.180 content. Yeah, so when you say Eugene that we we think of a query, we think 178 00:15:49.180 --> 00:15:53.970 of us a question that somebody is going to ask. And then we analyze the number 179 00:15:53.970 --> 00:15:57.910 one number two, Number three spot when you're analyzing it, what is your team 180 00:15:57.910 --> 00:16:01.500 looking at? Because what's confusing is like everyone's like, Well, Travis, 181 00:16:01.500 --> 00:16:04.870 shouldn't you know that you're on the content team? I am creating multimedia 182 00:16:04.870 --> 00:16:09.700 content. I am not creating blog content here at Panda Doc. So when you all are 183 00:16:09.700 --> 00:16:14.170 analyzing to make something better, then what's existing? What goes into 184 00:16:14.170 --> 00:16:21.230 that? Yeah, So I'll try to explain first each question each qua ary their 185 00:16:21.230 --> 00:16:28.070 union. So on some questions, it's better, for example, to create video 186 00:16:28.070 --> 00:16:32.850 for you, too. We have different questions, even in our news. Were 187 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:37.810 answers should be like video. And if we want to be in top of the Google is 188 00:16:37.810 --> 00:16:44.240 about to create video in some questions, it should be like forum answer or my 189 00:16:44.250 --> 00:16:50.330 big war answered. So each choir each question is unique So first we need to 190 00:16:50.330 --> 00:16:57.350 define what type of content we should develop to like beings at all. It's not 191 00:16:57.350 --> 00:17:01.490 always block post It can be. Videos have mentioned. It can be even a book 192 00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:07.530 can be made. The sounds sometimes pdf document if, uh, persons are looking 193 00:17:07.530 --> 00:17:13.270 for something to really made later. So first we define what type of quantum 194 00:17:13.270 --> 00:17:17.619 should be in the top of Google can be in the top of Google. Then there are a 195 00:17:17.619 --> 00:17:22.150 lot of things were analyzed to understand what needs to be done to 196 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:27.990 reached up. A good example can be quantum to length if I wanted. For 197 00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:33.330 example, if you imagine I do not work in Honda Dog and I want to create an 198 00:17:33.340 --> 00:17:38.440 article to be in the top of Google by an example, you've provided how to 199 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:42.490 write business proposal. The thing I will do, I will try to create content 200 00:17:42.490 --> 00:17:47.230 to longer than panda Doc. Maybe calculate how much words on the dock. 201 00:17:47.230 --> 00:17:53.810 Article Health Imagine like 3000 words, 2000 words and I will add, like, 10 15% 202 00:17:53.810 --> 00:17:59.630 to make it longer. So we are now Iceland's, then we have, like our 203 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:06.450 internal metrics we call it readability. How easy is to read this article? You 204 00:18:06.450 --> 00:18:12.690 know, right now, some articles is, uh, article should be easy to read. You 205 00:18:12.690 --> 00:18:17.420 should have. For example, videos. Institutions have infographics in it, 206 00:18:17.430 --> 00:18:22.390 and you should structure article in a way. So for everybody to be easy to 207 00:18:22.390 --> 00:18:30.610 live, breathe like big, big words, big letters. And you shouldn't have very 208 00:18:30.620 --> 00:18:35.540 long paragraphs like, uh, you should have, like, paragraphs. Three sentences 209 00:18:35.540 --> 00:18:42.140 than video of them heading. Then, for example, quote, uh, so you analyze 210 00:18:42.140 --> 00:18:46.360 whether you can write something that will be easier to read than number one 211 00:18:46.360 --> 00:18:52.170 position. If you can write something longer, something easier to read and, 212 00:18:52.180 --> 00:18:57.600 uh, at something unique, uh, maybe unique quartz, maybe some unique 213 00:18:57.610 --> 00:19:03.580 reports. Maybe you can find out how to add some unique data so we'll do it. 214 00:19:03.590 --> 00:19:09.600 We're right. We try to make it better and usually google, uh, give us a favor 215 00:19:09.600 --> 00:19:15.490 and start drinking us quite high. But get some shots Nice. What's the tool 216 00:19:15.490 --> 00:19:20.250 that we use when we're writing content, trying to remember what it's called? So 217 00:19:20.260 --> 00:19:28.040 right now we use for analyzing Google, we use clear scope. Yeah. It's a tool 218 00:19:28.050 --> 00:19:34.260 that helps to analyze top of the Google and provide some insights what you 219 00:19:34.260 --> 00:19:39.440 should write. Uh, there are a lot of different such tools on the market 220 00:19:39.450 --> 00:19:45.010 right now. You're very clear scope, but it don't only give some insights. Uh, 221 00:19:45.020 --> 00:19:50.380 amazing insights. Without it, it will be pretty hard. But when you're check, 222 00:19:50.380 --> 00:19:54.670 also very important, so without manual check, you should Anyway, man or the 223 00:19:54.670 --> 00:20:01.780 check top one second absorbed results in Google to see, and it's really hard 224 00:20:01.780 --> 00:20:07.670 to explain. But, uh, usually you feel whether you can write something better 225 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:14.430 than something in top or not. If we feel we can we do it? If not, we just 226 00:20:14.430 --> 00:20:18.850 keep the stop it. And, uh, right now, content is becoming better and better 227 00:20:18.860 --> 00:20:24.980 from even once a month. I think it's a future when, uh, you should include as 228 00:20:24.980 --> 00:20:29.500 a teams to write quantum to help your quantum. I think we all start with We 229 00:20:29.500 --> 00:20:33.500 also started doing right now, for example, when we right here a content 230 00:20:33.510 --> 00:20:39.080 almost, uh, in each article way include somebody from that, Another texting 231 00:20:39.080 --> 00:20:43.540 right now, uh, we got on that analytic statement as guys were right on this 232 00:20:43.540 --> 00:20:48.020 topic police provides us some insights like give us some insights because we 233 00:20:48.020 --> 00:20:53.060 have a lot of data in the underdog. And when we write something about proposals, 234 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:59.160 we can share some unique data that will be unique for a market. And right now 235 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:04.020 that analytics teams get some insights, for example, or, uh, you're writing 236 00:21:04.020 --> 00:21:08.990 about proposals right now with the trends that, uh, it's better to use 237 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:15.100 tables with three calls when you write a proposal or it's better to add 238 00:21:15.100 --> 00:21:19.160 signature in the bottom of document or signature block should be very wide. 239 00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:25.650 And I think it's a future also organic sort of content that if you want to 240 00:21:25.650 --> 00:21:29.060 rent in the top of Google, you should bring something unique for the market 241 00:21:29.060 --> 00:21:34.350 for an issue, and we are trying to do it as a marketer. You're probably 242 00:21:34.350 --> 00:21:38.320 brainstorming outside the box ideas to engage your prospects and customers 243 00:21:38.320 --> 00:21:41.960 working remotely, and you've probably thought about sending them direct mail 244 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:46.100 to break through the zoom fatigue. But how do you ship personalized gifts to 245 00:21:46.100 --> 00:21:50.510 remote decision makers when you have no idea where they're sitting at B B 246 00:21:50.510 --> 00:21:54.150 growth, we use the craft and platform to send hyper personalized gifts to 247 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:58.180 anyone working from anywhere. Crafting makes it easy for your prospects and 248 00:21:58.180 --> 00:22:02.700 customers to pick and personalize their own gift in real time and offers highly 249 00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:06.630 secure data capture. So decision makers feel comfortable submitting their home 250 00:22:06.630 --> 00:22:10.860 addresses for shipping purposes. To get your own personalized craft and gift, 251 00:22:10.940 --> 00:22:15.500 go to craft, um dot io slash growth to schedule a demo and receive a 252 00:22:15.500 --> 00:22:19.260 complimentary, personalized gift from craft. Um, to claim your personalized 253 00:22:19.260 --> 00:22:25.600 gift, go to craft, um dot io slash growth. Great. So switching gears just 254 00:22:25.600 --> 00:22:30.850 a little bit here. B two b marketing has evolved so much in just the past 255 00:22:30.850 --> 00:22:34.680 few years, and it's continuing to, which makes it a lot more fun and 256 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:39.010 enjoyable and just kind of diving into the four stages of B two b marketing. 257 00:22:39.010 --> 00:22:44.910 We've kind of gone from Decision Maker marketing, A B M events, paid marketing. 258 00:22:44.910 --> 00:22:49.050 Of course. In the past two years, that's changed a lot. Bottoms up, 259 00:22:49.050 --> 00:22:55.470 content inbound. S E o paid product led growth more s E o more paid content. 260 00:22:55.480 --> 00:23:00.120 And now we're kind of leaning into media and community led. And I think 261 00:23:00.120 --> 00:23:04.690 that this is really where we're headed and B to B companies are kind of 262 00:23:04.690 --> 00:23:09.290 becoming a destination for their audience through podcasting, YouTube 263 00:23:09.290 --> 00:23:14.030 clubhouse. They're becoming the go to for whatever their field might be. And 264 00:23:14.030 --> 00:23:17.650 I think that's really, really great. And can you just talk about your 265 00:23:17.650 --> 00:23:22.080 experience with this and your own growth through these stages in demand? 266 00:23:22.080 --> 00:23:25.650 Jin at Panda Doc over the last few years that you've been working there, 267 00:23:25.660 --> 00:23:30.770 so I'll jump in real quick and just, I think, to help set the stage. So, 268 00:23:30.780 --> 00:23:35.930 Eugene, I think about a year ago basically came to the whole marketing 269 00:23:35.930 --> 00:23:39.560 team and was like Guys, we found something pretty interesting here, 270 00:23:39.570 --> 00:23:46.890 which is of all of our social channels. YouTube is responsible for the largest 271 00:23:46.890 --> 00:23:52.800 generation of traffic and of converting traffic. And so we were like, Well, 272 00:23:52.800 --> 00:23:56.760 what are we even putting on our YouTube page? And it wasn't a whole lot at the 273 00:23:56.760 --> 00:24:01.690 time. And so Eugene came to me because I was the only one at the time kind of 274 00:24:01.700 --> 00:24:06.360 doing any videos or multimedia content at Panda Doc, and since then we've come 275 00:24:06.360 --> 00:24:09.820 up with a number of different ads to test. We've grown our audience 276 00:24:09.820 --> 00:24:16.180 significantly on LinkedIn and on YouTube and where turning into almost 277 00:24:16.180 --> 00:24:21.410 like a media arm of Panda Doc to support Eugene and what he's seeing in 278 00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:28.960 the trends where video is is becoming a huge focus for us. And I meet with 279 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:33.800 Eugene and he's a busy man to meet with. But I try to meet with him or people on 280 00:24:33.800 --> 00:24:39.590 his team every few weeks to come up with ideas for new videos and to 281 00:24:39.590 --> 00:24:44.690 organize our YouTube page a little bit better and come up with ideas for 282 00:24:44.690 --> 00:24:49.230 what's going to drive traffic and what's going to convert users to go 283 00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:53.740 from YouTube to the panel dock website, request a demo, start a free trial and 284 00:24:53.740 --> 00:24:56.950 become paying customers. So I just wanted to set that stage for you, 285 00:24:56.950 --> 00:25:02.360 Eugene. Thank you, Thank you, Chris. If to speak about YouTube, Leslie will 286 00:25:02.370 --> 00:25:06.520 jump a bit ahead, and I'll return to the question. But if to speak about 287 00:25:06.520 --> 00:25:14.700 YouTube, it's a very interesting channel, and it's a bit complicated, uh, 288 00:25:14.710 --> 00:25:21.810 to, uh, calculate like to measure its effort. I'll try to give an example 289 00:25:21.820 --> 00:25:28.990 when you watch a video like about underdog in what we see. In almost all 290 00:25:28.990 --> 00:25:34.240 cases, people after watching the video. After watching our ad, they go to 291 00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:39.950 Google and type underdog what it is. They do not click Ellen into the video. 292 00:25:40.040 --> 00:25:46.170 They go to Google to tie on the door and then find out what it says on the 293 00:25:46.170 --> 00:25:53.360 door, what it is to and when you try to measure effect like of YouTube ads, 294 00:25:53.370 --> 00:25:59.200 it's not only what you see, like when people click on Link and you measure 295 00:25:59.210 --> 00:26:04.490 what Travis said who requested them and start the trial. It's also a big part 296 00:26:04.490 --> 00:26:08.910 of branch of our business that people started searching much more about 297 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:17.340 underdog in the area where we show. So we even did a test when we show our 298 00:26:17.350 --> 00:26:24.650 brand only in once them stayed in USA, so we didn't show our heads in the hole. 299 00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:31.900 In my country, we chose one state where claustrophobia was pretty small and we 300 00:26:31.910 --> 00:26:38.400 showed our heads 200 t like visitors, people, unique people and what we 301 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:43.890 calculated that more than a half didn't click. They don't click on links in our 302 00:26:43.890 --> 00:26:49.740 video. They go to Google or and try to find out what is on the dog and when we 303 00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:55.180 show ourselves we see a big uplift of grand traffic and direct right, not by 304 00:26:55.180 --> 00:27:01.660 click links. So it's pretty complicated channel to measure and overall to 305 00:27:01.660 --> 00:27:05.590 understand its performance. But it's working, and it's one of the challenges 306 00:27:05.590 --> 00:27:10.730 we're working right now that we are having to build a model, how to measure 307 00:27:10.730 --> 00:27:16.010 some channel, some complicated channels like you told some video channels PR 308 00:27:16.010 --> 00:27:21.510 and so on. Okay, lets and going back to your question. I can maybe share 309 00:27:21.520 --> 00:27:26.150 overall our demand generation story, in short, how we came to current numbers. 310 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:30.970 So as I mentioned in the beginning of the call we've started with organic 311 00:27:30.970 --> 00:27:37.330 search, this is your It was for a long time, almost only one hour channel, and 312 00:27:37.340 --> 00:27:41.450 it's how we've grown from zero or zero to half a million visitors per month. 313 00:27:41.740 --> 00:27:48.590 Strategy was quite simple. We developed big amount of content, so we've created 314 00:27:48.600 --> 00:27:54.500 more than 50 pages per month, focused on specific evils, and the strategy was 315 00:27:54.500 --> 00:28:00.970 created a lot of content, good content that really answers user question, user 316 00:28:00.970 --> 00:28:07.810 inquiry and what user researching and optimize it for a lot of keywords to 317 00:28:07.810 --> 00:28:14.300 ramp on as much flavor as possible. It's how We've grown from zero to half 318 00:28:14.300 --> 00:28:20.030 a million visitors for months. Uh, start at this point, we realized that 319 00:28:20.040 --> 00:28:27.250 for many key words, we reached top. We were not top one not talked to, but we 320 00:28:27.250 --> 00:28:34.810 understood that it's, uh, really hard to rent higher. We can be, for example, 321 00:28:34.810 --> 00:28:38.530 on the fifth position on the first position. And when we analyze stock, we 322 00:28:38.530 --> 00:28:43.080 understood that it's really, really hard to be 13 Number one, number two, 323 00:28:43.080 --> 00:28:46.430 number three Because competitors are really better. They wanted us better, 324 00:28:46.430 --> 00:28:51.640 or they have better links or they do something better. And at this point, we 325 00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:58.900 started leveraging new channels. We've started doing PPC social. We started 326 00:28:58.910 --> 00:29:04.700 tests with affiliate programs. We've opened reviewed review websites, uh, 327 00:29:04.810 --> 00:29:09.470 crowd data, types of their advice. We started as doing organic promotion on 328 00:29:09.470 --> 00:29:16.280 them as paid promotion and, uh, some channels started working. Some had a 329 00:29:16.290 --> 00:29:22.730 lower like Aero I. But overall, right now, where we are after all, like, 330 00:29:22.730 --> 00:29:28.290 channels were development. We have, uh, three working channels for us. Uh, your 331 00:29:28.300 --> 00:29:35.890 organic search PPC were using a PC in Google animals and then being and, uh, 332 00:29:35.900 --> 00:29:40.250 we have some momentum success, some good results with review websites 333 00:29:40.250 --> 00:29:44.700 almost with each review website that exist in our initial that proud of 334 00:29:44.700 --> 00:29:47.920 terror. Archetypes of our advice financial, some lines. So we are 335 00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:53.320 working with them and the overall where y is positive if to calculate on water 336 00:29:53.320 --> 00:30:00.360 performance and we are running tests in multiple other channels. We are running 337 00:30:00.360 --> 00:30:04.410 tests on YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn. We use a lot of different targeting 338 00:30:04.410 --> 00:30:09.830 options there. Like if to speak about LinkedIn, uh, Facebook we use to try to 339 00:30:09.840 --> 00:30:14.790 find out how to get positive provide from lookalike audiences. We run a lot 340 00:30:14.790 --> 00:30:20.610 of that. We use, uh, lied again. Forums developed by Facebook there. So I think 341 00:30:20.610 --> 00:30:25.620 right now we have a route, maybe 56 different tests around in there in each 342 00:30:25.620 --> 00:30:32.550 platform. But I cannot say that we find out how to grow and scale this channel. 343 00:30:32.560 --> 00:30:38.230 For example, 10 times if my manager would ask me, please scale. Uh, 344 00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:42.300 Facebook. 10 times it will be a challenge with review websites and 345 00:30:42.300 --> 00:30:47.950 Google Edwards, we can easily do it. So with right now, one of the like 346 00:30:48.340 --> 00:30:55.440 challenges we have is to find out how to, uh, scale some, uh, channels who 347 00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:02.040 have that have momentum win Facebook and Gmail YouTube. We are working with 348 00:31:02.050 --> 00:31:07.270 cooperated, uh, some content marketing tools. We have some winds, but we need 349 00:31:07.270 --> 00:31:11.210 to understand how to scale them. And that's one of the challenges. And I 350 00:31:11.210 --> 00:31:18.180 mostly speak about inbound, but inbound. It's only part of demand generation. So, 351 00:31:18.190 --> 00:31:22.630 uh, it's how I want a dog started. We started with inbound and usually 352 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:29.550 inbound, and one generation was almost the same. But in overall of the world. 353 00:31:29.550 --> 00:31:34.610 And how other companies demanded something we are also working on is to 354 00:31:34.620 --> 00:31:41.140 expand, uh, inbound and try to focus on other areas of the one generation. So 355 00:31:41.150 --> 00:31:46.690 we started doing it, I think, in the end of previous year, so not only 356 00:31:46.690 --> 00:31:53.190 focusing on inbound but also working on parental awareness and, uh, sales 357 00:31:53.190 --> 00:31:57.950 enablement. So we started doing different activities around brand 358 00:31:57.950 --> 00:32:02.840 awareness. YouTube is a good example where we try to show our heads to 359 00:32:02.840 --> 00:32:07.150 different people, not only to get leads, but also to increase overall our brand 360 00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:13.810 partners and help brand awareness. And we are also started focusing on sales 361 00:32:13.810 --> 00:32:19.610 final. If, uh, two years ago, our main goal was to drive fleets, uh, right Now, 362 00:32:19.610 --> 00:32:23.860 our main goal is to drive pipeline. This changes started beginning two 363 00:32:23.860 --> 00:32:29.460 years ago. And, uh, right now, we do not bring on the lives we are focusing 364 00:32:29.460 --> 00:32:36.900 on pipeline. And, uh, if, uh, the goal for us right now is not guys bring a 365 00:32:36.900 --> 00:32:43.000 small it is bringing more quality and bring more pipelines. And I think if 366 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:50.100 somebody would ask me what you prefer like Mali's or Lois. But this higher 367 00:32:50.100 --> 00:32:54.920 quality, they, of course, will propose second option, so focus on quality and 368 00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:58.930 not involved. So it seems where we're focusing right now and the future of 369 00:32:58.940 --> 00:33:04.810 Wanda Dog, I think we will come to eat. Uh, it was the beginning of this year 370 00:33:04.820 --> 00:33:10.320 is to start focusing on customers, too. So it is in plans, but to start 371 00:33:10.330 --> 00:33:16.050 development content for our current customers. Show X for current customers 372 00:33:16.060 --> 00:33:20.910 to work on retention on some customer metrics. We don't do it actually right 373 00:33:20.910 --> 00:33:26.360 now, but it's, uh, like strategy. We should appear by the end of the year. 374 00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:29.940 Demand generation. What's been interesting for me to watch coming into 375 00:33:29.940 --> 00:33:34.700 the organization two years ago is the strategy we've used on review sites, 376 00:33:34.700 --> 00:33:38.800 which could be of interest to people. Listening to this podcast, we teamed 377 00:33:38.800 --> 00:33:41.890 from my understanding. We we we did a good job of teaming up with other 378 00:33:41.890 --> 00:33:48.040 departments so specifically sales customer success and sometimes baking 379 00:33:48.040 --> 00:33:53.100 in. I don't know if we baked it into contracts officially, but often times 380 00:33:53.100 --> 00:33:56.640 we would ask customers who are really happy with the buying process like, Hey, 381 00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:59.940 will you write a review for us? You know, a few months into using the 382 00:33:59.950 --> 00:34:04.660 product and we like set reminders and then also part of the strategy was 383 00:34:04.660 --> 00:34:08.560 going in and cleaning up some of the poor reviews, reaching out to people 384 00:34:08.560 --> 00:34:11.790 and saying like, Hey, you know, you gave us a bad review which was 385 00:34:11.790 --> 00:34:16.239 warranted. We've since fixed that issue that you described. Is there any way we 386 00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:21.340 can incentivize you to update your review? Now that we fixed that and 387 00:34:21.350 --> 00:34:26.650 really taking a hands on approach with different teams, marketing was involved. 388 00:34:26.650 --> 00:34:29.860 Customer marketing and product marketing was involved customer success 389 00:34:29.860 --> 00:34:34.949 sales, and that was just amazing to see everybody pushing toward and like now 390 00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:38.239 you know you're going to the major review sites that Eugene listed Cap 391 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:43.530 Terra G to trust radius and we're winning. Awards were being selected as 392 00:34:43.530 --> 00:34:49.719 top products, and that's just I mean, social proof to A T and like we can 393 00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:54.610 leverage that all day, all night. If anybody comes at us and says like, Oh, 394 00:34:54.610 --> 00:34:57.920 I don't know about Panda Doc It's like, Well, the proof is in the pudding. Go 395 00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:01.400 check out any of those major sites and so that was a huge push that I know 396 00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:06.330 Eugene kind of mentioned, but I really wanted to, like, mention again and harp 397 00:35:06.330 --> 00:35:11.360 on that. Travis. Thank you. Review websites its overall, uh, quite 398 00:35:11.450 --> 00:35:17.040 interesting strategy for us because we had overall a lot of learning during 399 00:35:17.040 --> 00:35:20.490 this year's. We're focused on the review website, but the men learn Maybe 400 00:35:20.490 --> 00:35:24.610 what I can mention, but also Travis mentioned, without good reviews and 401 00:35:24.610 --> 00:35:31.260 without good rate and your rye and return on investment with will be much 402 00:35:31.260 --> 00:35:35.720 lower than with good reviews. So if you are ready to spend money on your 403 00:35:35.720 --> 00:35:40.210 website to the list and in some categories in parallel, you should be 404 00:35:40.210 --> 00:35:45.820 focusing on reviews to have good reviews and put rating because we saw a 405 00:35:45.830 --> 00:35:52.000 direct correlation between hospitality and our average rating average rating 406 00:35:52.010 --> 00:35:58.680 four and the average rating, like 4.4 to really like, plays a big role on 407 00:35:58.680 --> 00:36:04.190 conversion rate and don't prosper late cost opportunity and or overall there, 408 00:36:04.190 --> 00:36:11.600 right? So if people want to spend money, it's not only money. You should also 409 00:36:11.600 --> 00:36:17.500 like Dr Positive Reviews Rate and work with your customers. If somebody leaves 410 00:36:17.500 --> 00:36:22.340 negative review trying to understand, maybe help him asked to update it with 411 00:36:22.340 --> 00:36:27.630 higher mark, it works at all. Health and arrive will be much fire. And then 412 00:36:27.640 --> 00:36:31.520 the other thing I wanted to mention to just because, like, I find it to be 413 00:36:31.520 --> 00:36:37.180 like, so interesting and pertinent to Panda Doc is at the very beginning of 414 00:36:37.180 --> 00:36:40.580 the conversation was that you asked about our organizational structure. And 415 00:36:40.580 --> 00:36:43.290 I'm sure people listening to this are like, Well, I want to replicate what 416 00:36:43.290 --> 00:36:47.810 paradox doing, and that's gonna be really hard to do. So good luck, 417 00:36:47.820 --> 00:36:52.660 because it takes a long time, and it takes a lot of people very focused 418 00:36:52.670 --> 00:36:59.490 people for a long time. But what's been interesting about the structure is so 419 00:36:59.490 --> 00:37:02.580 we have an engagement marketing team here at Panda Doc, and it's kind of 420 00:37:02.580 --> 00:37:09.040 we've we've taken content which is me and my boss. And then we've taken email, 421 00:37:09.040 --> 00:37:12.970 marketing and customer marketing and lumped them all underneath one boss, 422 00:37:12.970 --> 00:37:20.440 one team. And we're really responsible for creating content that replicates 423 00:37:20.450 --> 00:37:25.150 how people actually buy. So our model we use a content marketing framework 424 00:37:25.160 --> 00:37:29.370 that supports Eugene and the demand Jen's efforts. But we're really focused 425 00:37:29.370 --> 00:37:35.640 on educational content, inspirational content and what we call execution 426 00:37:35.640 --> 00:37:39.910 content. So first people need inspiration, then they need education, 427 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:43.800 and then they need execution of how to actually execute that. That specific 428 00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:49.080 thing and a lot of our content is that that we create on the engagement 429 00:37:49.080 --> 00:37:52.630 marketing team is going to be what Eugene was talking about at the end. 430 00:37:52.630 --> 00:37:56.480 There brand awareness focused and really building up the reputation of 431 00:37:56.480 --> 00:38:01.790 panda Doc, um, and growing our our overall audience. And then Eugene has 432 00:38:01.790 --> 00:38:07.040 his own kind of separate content army of freelancers that he mentioned, and 433 00:38:07.040 --> 00:38:11.560 that's a group of folks who are going to really help with the CEO content and 434 00:38:11.560 --> 00:38:15.030 making sure that the queries that he was talking about are being answered. 435 00:38:15.220 --> 00:38:19.100 They're going to be responsible for creating dozens of pages on our website 436 00:38:19.110 --> 00:38:24.970 every month blog articles, pillar pages. So I just wanted to give that context 437 00:38:24.970 --> 00:38:29.060 to like, there's almost like we have two separate content teams here at 438 00:38:29.060 --> 00:38:34.680 Panda, Doc. Um, and that's what it takes to compete in this world on on 439 00:38:34.680 --> 00:38:40.950 both search engines and on social. So it is a real machine here at Panda. Doc, 440 00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:44.770 that's awesome. Yeah. So I have a question, and it's it's kind of going 441 00:38:44.770 --> 00:38:48.780 back to basics here, but I want to know, you know, you talk about all these 442 00:38:48.780 --> 00:38:51.500 strategies that you have in place and you're talking about how you guys are 443 00:38:51.500 --> 00:38:56.060 growing. Can you talk to me a little bit? About How do you know that your 444 00:38:56.060 --> 00:39:00.330 demand generation strategies are successful? How do you measure success? 445 00:39:01.020 --> 00:39:09.070 So, uh, right now, everything in panda doc is focused on pipeline and each 446 00:39:09.070 --> 00:39:16.050 activity. Uh, we each test we Iranian is focused on pipeline. And if to speak 447 00:39:16.050 --> 00:39:22.010 about a channels when we make a test with, for example, new at methodology 448 00:39:22.010 --> 00:39:26.890 appeared in the market, everything is focused on pipeline. So we have some 449 00:39:26.900 --> 00:39:31.290 internal metrics, of course, of opportunity. We can make some, um, 450 00:39:31.290 --> 00:39:37.360 spend for this channel to start working on a visit to optimize. If we reach it 451 00:39:37.370 --> 00:39:42.010 Like in pilot Test, for example, we continue working with this channel. If 452 00:39:42.010 --> 00:39:49.340 not, we're when to stop. Always put it on DeLay, but usually, like we have a 453 00:39:49.350 --> 00:39:55.550 first post of opportunity, which we can heat this first test. No, imagine it 454 00:39:55.550 --> 00:40:02.130 like $5000 we can hit for opportunity. If we do it, we continue working with 455 00:40:02.130 --> 00:40:08.060 this channel. This cost. It's not ideal but its cost of our like opportunity. 456 00:40:08.070 --> 00:40:12.890 We can work with optimized channel because we every time I understand that 457 00:40:12.900 --> 00:40:19.520 if we start new test or develop new channel, we can improve it a lot like 458 00:40:19.530 --> 00:40:24.650 in future. So we have some, like high grade opportunity, cost of opportunity 459 00:40:24.650 --> 00:40:29.920 we can reach, uh, if we do it. So we are aging this Channel two but look of 460 00:40:29.930 --> 00:40:34.330 like improvement activities, and we worked with it. If not so. We was a 461 00:40:34.330 --> 00:40:38.290 close, whether we repeat like some months, and then I was going to say, 462 00:40:38.290 --> 00:40:43.130 Like if anybody listening is a fan of Chris Walker's and the demands and 463 00:40:43.130 --> 00:40:49.360 podcast he does, Eugene made a very pregnant comment, which was We care 464 00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:54.220 about pipeline, which is that that that really resonates with with Chris 465 00:40:54.220 --> 00:40:58.390 philosophy. We're not necessarily as concerned about the number of leads 466 00:40:58.390 --> 00:41:02.050 were driving. All we care about is revenue, right? Like that's what Eugene, 467 00:41:02.060 --> 00:41:06.270 ultimately, I mean, he is paying attention and considering cost of 468 00:41:06.270 --> 00:41:12.610 opportunity and cost to lead and all that stuff. But ultimately the goal is 469 00:41:12.610 --> 00:41:19.210 Did that person or that company convert and how did they do it? And so, you 470 00:41:19.210 --> 00:41:24.010 know, a big thing that we've learned here is the quality of the leads that 471 00:41:24.010 --> 00:41:28.200 we talked about earlier like we'd have. We'd be much happier having fewer leads 472 00:41:28.210 --> 00:41:32.690 if they're higher quality leads. And we realized that, uh, somebody requesting 473 00:41:32.690 --> 00:41:38.690 a demo I mean, that's one of the highest converting leads to us. So 474 00:41:38.690 --> 00:41:43.340 everything else is just noise. Until we can get them to request a demo or pick 475 00:41:43.340 --> 00:41:48.610 up the phone and call us. We have our phone number on the very top of our 476 00:41:48.610 --> 00:41:52.660 website. Now, that was a new kind of development in the last year and a half 477 00:41:52.670 --> 00:41:56.570 that I've seen. We didn't have before people actually picking up the phone, 478 00:41:56.570 --> 00:42:00.580 calling us requesting a demo. We've got the chat pot. You know, we've got the 479 00:42:00.580 --> 00:42:04.500 drift, but the panda pop on our website, and they all are converting at 480 00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:08.890 different levels. And Eugene is definitely good about educating us on 481 00:42:08.890 --> 00:42:13.140 the content team and the engagement team about like, which leads actually 482 00:42:13.150 --> 00:42:18.400 are like kicking ass when they convert to become an actual customer. And, uh, 483 00:42:18.410 --> 00:42:23.730 trial is okay. Free. We have a free plan there. Okay. But really, it's like 484 00:42:24.300 --> 00:42:29.590 that request a demo is that's the Golden Nugget for us. Really? Yeah. To 485 00:42:29.590 --> 00:42:32.960 Travis words, maybe What I can have that what I've mentioned in the 486 00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:37.320 beginning of the call, we have overall a lot of traffic on our website right 487 00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:43.230 now. More than a million, uh, unique new visitors like visit underdog each 488 00:42:43.230 --> 00:42:49.610 month, and we overall, with this traffic can get a lot of leads. But in 489 00:42:49.610 --> 00:42:57.330 a lot of cases, we prefer to warm lead more to make him more warm and increase 490 00:42:57.330 --> 00:43:04.270 his quality than to get total volume. So, in our user journeys in on some 491 00:43:04.270 --> 00:43:10.980 pages, user, for example, can miss opportunity to live an email, and we do 492 00:43:10.980 --> 00:43:17.510 it to decrease volume of some low intent called the wit and to borrow 493 00:43:17.510 --> 00:43:25.670 them up. And, yeah, overall strategy is more quality and not, uh, volume. Yeah, 494 00:43:25.680 --> 00:43:29.690 that's a great example, Eugene. Like he's doing that all the time. And in 495 00:43:29.690 --> 00:43:33.820 slack, he'll send this long thread, which I love reading them, just like, 496 00:43:33.830 --> 00:43:38.510 Hey, guys, we just ran a test for the last two months, and we noticed that if 497 00:43:38.520 --> 00:43:41.620 by adding this checkbox, we actually, you know, I'm just giving an example. I 498 00:43:41.620 --> 00:43:44.980 don't think this is an actual one, but like by adding this checkbox in this 499 00:43:44.980 --> 00:43:49.460 form, uh, we had more leads come through, but they were crap your 500 00:43:49.460 --> 00:43:54.860 quality. So we're gonna remove the check box and, um, you know, it's very 501 00:43:54.860 --> 00:43:59.100 factual base. It's very a B based. So it's cool to see that from the content 502 00:43:59.100 --> 00:44:03.600 side. It always gets me excited when we when we learn, even if it's a bad 503 00:44:03.600 --> 00:44:08.660 learning, it's still learning. So that's always my takeaway. Usually I'm 504 00:44:08.670 --> 00:44:13.850 learning from them about Travis. Is there anything else you can think of 505 00:44:13.850 --> 00:44:18.530 that you and Eugene maybe could lean into as far as demand? Gen goes over a 506 00:44:18.530 --> 00:44:20.940 panda? Doc, I don't want to miss anything here. I think that this has 507 00:44:20.940 --> 00:44:24.300 been so helpful and so knowledgeable. But I want to give you guys the 508 00:44:24.300 --> 00:44:28.010 opportunity to share anything I might have missed or I might not have asked. 509 00:44:28.590 --> 00:44:32.490 Um, one thing that's been interesting is like there's a lot of buzz behind 510 00:44:32.490 --> 00:44:36.940 clubhouse and I know the sweet fish team host club house all the time, and 511 00:44:36.940 --> 00:44:40.730 there's been pushed internally from our CEO. Messaging me like Travis needs to 512 00:44:40.730 --> 00:44:44.160 be on clubhouse people on the demand gen team. We need to be on the 513 00:44:44.160 --> 00:44:50.590 clubhouse and unfortunately, like the we were just starting a podcast at the 514 00:44:50.590 --> 00:44:55.800 same time clubhouse was taking off and our team has made the decision to not 515 00:44:55.800 --> 00:45:00.620 chase the shiny object just yet. And just try to, you know, when you go to a 516 00:45:00.620 --> 00:45:04.400 restaurant and they have, like, a million menu items and they're all 517 00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:09.970 you're like, Well, this restaurant must just do everything kind of okay. And 518 00:45:09.970 --> 00:45:12.370 then you go to a restaurant, they have a menu and they've got, like, two or 519 00:45:12.370 --> 00:45:14.770 three things for you to choose from, and that's it. But they're all 520 00:45:14.780 --> 00:45:20.400 excellent. And so for us, we're trying to strike a balance and So at the 521 00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:23.660 moment we're not on clubhouse. And I know a lot of people have been asking 522 00:45:23.660 --> 00:45:27.120 me. Well, why not? And it's like I'm focused on making sure that the quality 523 00:45:27.120 --> 00:45:34.360 of our podcast is like, top tier, that people are looking to us as, you know, 524 00:45:34.370 --> 00:45:38.790 an inspiration for how to do a business podcast right now. So I'm gonna do a 525 00:45:38.790 --> 00:45:41.900 quick plug. Go check us out the customer engagement lab podcast. If 526 00:45:41.900 --> 00:45:46.680 you're listening to this business comedy podcast that paradox host. And, 527 00:45:46.690 --> 00:45:52.000 um so, yeah, I would say, like we're interested in not always chasing the 528 00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:56.950 shiny object and that that can Sometimes we can talk about that for a 529 00:45:56.950 --> 00:46:02.390 long time, of arguing back and forth of the if that works or not. But don't try 530 00:46:02.390 --> 00:46:07.030 to do too many things. Find out what works by testing like Eugene does all 531 00:46:07.030 --> 00:46:09.980 this amazing testing and then replicated and stick with it. And then 532 00:46:09.990 --> 00:46:13.050 eventually, when you have more budget, you have more time. You have more 533 00:46:13.050 --> 00:46:16.880 resources and people on your team. You can afford to do some testing in other 534 00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:23.730 areas, but with us so far, you know, we've seen our Arlington audience grow 535 00:46:23.730 --> 00:46:30.920 by 25% since launching the podcast, and you know that that's huge for us. And 536 00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:34.570 that's important that we that we continue to see that channel go up. So 537 00:46:34.580 --> 00:46:40.450 we're staying focused so far. Uh, what we see, overall, in demand generation 538 00:46:40.460 --> 00:46:47.380 for some years, the total, uh, competition is going up. I can say 539 00:46:47.380 --> 00:46:55.100 about our niche. But during 23 years, CPC are gaining search competition 540 00:46:55.110 --> 00:46:59.880 increased three fund four times by different peoples. And I think, uh, 541 00:46:59.890 --> 00:47:07.100 it's a future of many B two B niches. Overall, that competition will going up 542 00:47:07.110 --> 00:47:15.190 and you need to invest in quality and in creativity. So it's, I think, our 543 00:47:15.190 --> 00:47:22.100 future to that. To be competitive in the market, we need to step up with 544 00:47:22.100 --> 00:47:28.170 quality of everything we produce banners, design, content, all assets. 545 00:47:28.170 --> 00:47:34.310 We do. So, uh, it's where we've already started in west not doing something 546 00:47:34.310 --> 00:47:38.730 broader and wider, but we are increasing quality of what we do. The 547 00:47:38.740 --> 00:47:43.680 numbers prove it. So competition is going up and, uh, to stay competitive. 548 00:47:43.690 --> 00:47:48.170 We need to step up with quality of everything we do. 100%. I love it. Well, 549 00:47:48.170 --> 00:47:51.620 this has been so, So great. Eugene and Travis, thank you both so much for 550 00:47:51.620 --> 00:47:55.710 joining me. Travis, I know you already plugged the podcast, but otherwise, 551 00:47:55.710 --> 00:47:58.780 where can people find you and paying the doc online if they're interested in 552 00:47:58.780 --> 00:48:03.320 learning more? Yeah. Follow us on LinkedIn. We're big on LinkedIn. Panda. 553 00:48:03.320 --> 00:48:08.860 Doc, you can find me Travis Tyler. You can also find Eugene Zaremba as well on 554 00:48:08.860 --> 00:48:15.760 LinkedIn and go check out our YouTube page and, uh, definitely add our 555 00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:19.840 podcast to your rotation. You want a good laugh? The business faces too 556 00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:23.290 serious, too buttoned up. We need to loosen up and have some fun. Let her 557 00:48:23.290 --> 00:48:27.330 hair down. That's what we're doing on the podcast. Absolutely fantastic again. 558 00:48:27.330 --> 00:48:30.630 Thank you both. So much for joining me on GDP growth. Thank you. Thank you. 559 00:48:31.210 --> 00:48:32.800 All right. Thanks. Everyone 560 00:48:34.680 --> 00:48:38.600 is your buyer at BBB Marketer. If so, you should think about sponsoring this 561 00:48:38.600 --> 00:48:43.550 podcast. BTB growth gets downloaded over 130,000 times each month, and our 562 00:48:43.550 --> 00:48:47.360 listeners are marketing decision makers. If it sounds interesting, send Logan 563 00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:50.210 and email Logan at sweet Fish media dot com.