How Narrative, Category, & Community Work Together to Create a Brand Flywheel

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740 Yeah, 2 00:00:05.640 --> 00:00:09.690 welcome back to BTB Growth. I'm dan Sanchez with Sweet fish Media and I'm 3 00:00:09.690 --> 00:00:15.570 here with Kaleem Oh, who is the co founder of Service Cycle Kaleem, 4 00:00:15.570 --> 00:00:19.940 Welcome to the show. Thanks dan. I appreciate being here with you because 5 00:00:19.950 --> 00:00:22.750 I guess I could say welcome back to the show. Is this actually the second time 6 00:00:22.750 --> 00:00:27.250 we've had you on the last couple of months? Callum is somebody that I see 7 00:00:27.250 --> 00:00:32.400 often on linkedin and he first popped up in a huge linkedin post that I had 8 00:00:32.400 --> 00:00:36.310 with a huge, like just a massive amount of comments were all arguing and 9 00:00:36.310 --> 00:00:40.480 talking about what the heck demand generation is because I was frustrated 10 00:00:40.480 --> 00:00:43.730 because after reading about it, I still wasn't any closer to understanding what 11 00:00:43.730 --> 00:00:46.960 the heck it actually was because it sounded like marketing sounded like 12 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:50.790 everybody had different definitions and he stepped in with this awesome graphic 13 00:00:50.790 --> 00:00:53.470 that brought a lot of clarity to it. Now I ended up doing a show with them 14 00:00:53.470 --> 00:00:57.460 on that with Leslie crews who did a deep dive on GDP Growth just a few 15 00:00:57.460 --> 00:01:00.800 months ago and I know you were one of those episodes and that was great, It 16 00:01:00.800 --> 00:01:06.200 was super helpful, but recently he popped up again in my news feed with 17 00:01:06.200 --> 00:01:11.180 another in my opinion, like a game changing concept and I was like, I 18 00:01:11.180 --> 00:01:15.110 think James tagged me and it was like dan, you have to look at this and I'm 19 00:01:15.110 --> 00:01:20.340 like, yes, welcome back to the show because I wanted to talk about it and 20 00:01:20.340 --> 00:01:25.370 the concept that this is called the Brand Evolution Flywheel Right? And it 21 00:01:25.370 --> 00:01:30.720 incorporates three major parts of narrative Category and community. It 22 00:01:30.720 --> 00:01:34.300 just so happened to be three things that are like the hot topic and B2B 23 00:01:34.300 --> 00:01:37.390 marketing right now because everybody's talking about strategic narrative 24 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:42.430 category design and building authentic communities and the way he pulled it 25 00:01:42.430 --> 00:01:46.620 together into this concentric circle where one plays into the other. It was 26 00:01:46.620 --> 00:01:50.220 a very fascinating concept now. It's when you look at the graphic and off 27 00:01:50.220 --> 00:01:53.320 the link to it in the show notes that will describe it in more detail as we 28 00:01:53.320 --> 00:01:57.570 go because we're going to talk about the three major sections of it. It's 29 00:01:57.580 --> 00:02:01.080 you have to kind of stare at it and it requires thought like you know, it's 30 00:02:01.080 --> 00:02:04.390 not as clear as the last graphic I saw where it's kind of like concentric 31 00:02:04.390 --> 00:02:07.550 circles of like a B. M. In the middle and then demanding and then brand on 32 00:02:07.550 --> 00:02:09.889 the outside. Like that was really simple, you understood it immediately. 33 00:02:09.889 --> 00:02:13.910 This one like actually take some study but still brings a lot of clarity to 34 00:02:13.910 --> 00:02:17.940 what I think there are three major topics that B two B community is 35 00:02:17.940 --> 00:02:23.510 talking about but is grappling with how to put them all together. So to kick it 36 00:02:23.510 --> 00:02:27.370 off, can you tell me a little bit about like where did this brand evolution 37 00:02:27.370 --> 00:02:31.910 flywheel come from? Like where did the Ah ha moment come to you? Yeah, you 38 00:02:31.910 --> 00:02:37.050 know, to be honest, it's a process, it's been a process of, you know, 39 00:02:37.540 --> 00:02:42.990 listening to experts in each of these individual areas, you know, you've got 40 00:02:42.990 --> 00:02:46.700 your Andy Raskin's for strategic narrative, you've got your Christopher 41 00:02:46.700 --> 00:02:51.020 lock heads for category design, you got your son ground batteries for community 42 00:02:51.030 --> 00:02:55.830 building, you know, I'm watching all these people listening to them, but I'm 43 00:02:55.830 --> 00:03:01.390 coming at it from more of a macro, you know, go to market type of look all the 44 00:03:01.390 --> 00:03:06.830 time and from the sustainable growth perspective of go to market. So, you 45 00:03:06.830 --> 00:03:12.750 know that that bigger GTM vision that I always have, combined with me seeing 46 00:03:12.750 --> 00:03:18.160 the value that all these people are are bringing, allowed me to start 47 00:03:18.160 --> 00:03:24.070 connecting the dots and see how these categories or phases play out over your 48 00:03:24.070 --> 00:03:29.420 GTM cycles. Right? So you'll be you'll you'll start out much more heavy on the 49 00:03:29.420 --> 00:03:32.950 narrative, even though technically you're doing all three of these things 50 00:03:32.950 --> 00:03:39.660 simultaneously all the time. It's not like 1, 2, 3, but it is like waiting, 51 00:03:40.040 --> 00:03:47.500 right? You're waiting, whichever phase matches your GTM position. Right? So 52 00:03:47.500 --> 00:03:50.670 what phase do you think people start with the most when it comes to 53 00:03:50.670 --> 00:03:56.090 narrative in this circle? He has it as a narrative on top, which kind of flows 54 00:03:56.090 --> 00:03:59.620 into category, which kind of flows into community and then flows back into 55 00:03:59.620 --> 00:04:04.260 narrative, which one is the starting point since it's a circle. So look, you 56 00:04:04.260 --> 00:04:09.710 can frame this model uh in many ways you could choose your own starting 57 00:04:09.710 --> 00:04:14.210 point, in a sense, there's no problem with, you know, you might have been 58 00:04:14.210 --> 00:04:17.649 building good relationships in the sense of community before you figured 59 00:04:17.649 --> 00:04:21.190 out your narrative totally. And that's what kind of revealed your narrative to 60 00:04:21.190 --> 00:04:25.780 you in the first place. They're also connected that there isn't really a 61 00:04:25.780 --> 00:04:32.160 starting point, but I could evolve first on purpose because it is like 62 00:04:32.740 --> 00:04:34.060 there is a prioritization 63 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:40.020 because you can't really build community effectively and efficiently 64 00:04:40.030 --> 00:04:46.160 and and make it happen at the scale that's required without a truly evolved 65 00:04:46.170 --> 00:04:50.310 narrative. It's like the first requirement of everything in order to 66 00:04:50.310 --> 00:04:53.860 have something that's worth unifying around. 67 00:04:54.940 --> 00:04:58.590 Right? I mean, you can't launch out the gate thinking you have it all together, 68 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:02.980 it always is an evolution. It's always a thing that has to be figured out over 69 00:05:02.980 --> 00:05:08.340 time, totally, totally. And I think that, you know what we're what I'm, 70 00:05:08.340 --> 00:05:13.060 what I'm trying to suggest here is that the purpose of all this is to create a 71 00:05:13.060 --> 00:05:18.680 unity around something massive unity around something that's what the 72 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:24.190 purpose of narrative is and category, It's not, in my opinion, it's not to be 73 00:05:24.190 --> 00:05:29.770 number one you end up leading the category, that's just a byproduct. But 74 00:05:29.770 --> 00:05:33.460 if you think you're number one you may fall into the trap 75 00:05:34.740 --> 00:05:39.630 And you may end around one Cycle and you may not reinvent yourself because 76 00:05:39.630 --> 00:05:43.400 you think you're number one and so you don't learn from the community, You 77 00:05:43.400 --> 00:05:47.950 don't build community at a level that reveals the next narrative evolution, 78 00:05:48.640 --> 00:05:54.280 Right? So I'm very wary of even calling myself number one. I get nervous about 79 00:05:54.280 --> 00:05:58.220 that. I'm like, whoa, no, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. The market will 80 00:05:58.220 --> 00:06:03.020 decide I'm number one or not. I don't have to say that for myself, right? But 81 00:06:03.030 --> 00:06:06.630 my goal is to always have all that narrative and then create unity around 82 00:06:06.630 --> 00:06:10.680 it. It makes sense. So, it could start with community, could start with 83 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:14.880 narrative, I'd be hard pressed to say it starts with category because usually 84 00:06:14.880 --> 00:06:17.470 category has to start with the narrative of some kind. If you don't 85 00:06:17.470 --> 00:06:20.810 have a narrative, you probably don't have a category. Even as I think back 86 00:06:20.810 --> 00:06:24.320 to Sweet Fish Media and the narrative we've been telling you probably 87 00:06:24.320 --> 00:06:28.160 actually started in community because James is just so relational, he knows 88 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:31.500 so many people, has been collaborating with lots of people and then out of 89 00:06:31.500 --> 00:06:35.770 that, the narrative around BdB podcasting has been forming, which is 90 00:06:35.770 --> 00:06:39.780 kind of created a category around B two B podcasting over the years and now 91 00:06:39.790 --> 00:06:43.450 it's it's I can see it swinging back into community is where even now trying 92 00:06:43.450 --> 00:06:48.210 to figure out how to create a stronger community than there already is, so 93 00:06:48.220 --> 00:06:52.440 around and round it spins. But let's start at like narrative because I feel 94 00:06:52.440 --> 00:06:55.690 like a lot of things probably could start their, oftentimes people start 95 00:06:55.690 --> 00:06:58.950 companies because they're like I'm scratching my own itch, I had a problem, 96 00:06:59.640 --> 00:07:03.520 which is the beginning of a narrative, right? Um I know that's how you got 97 00:07:03.520 --> 00:07:08.070 started. Now, Sweet Fish got started. James, James wanted a way to meet more 98 00:07:08.070 --> 00:07:12.780 people and he discovered that podcasting was a great way to get 99 00:07:12.780 --> 00:07:17.090 conversations with lots of people um on top of making great content and that's 100 00:07:17.090 --> 00:07:22.400 how He started the way he does B two B podcasting. So when you look at 101 00:07:22.400 --> 00:07:27.900 narrative, How does it start with that and what can companies look at two kind 102 00:07:27.900 --> 00:07:34.350 of kick start this process? Yeah, so you know, I I do I do come from the 103 00:07:34.350 --> 00:07:41.030 stance of solving your own problems first. You know, I believe that 104 00:07:41.030 --> 00:07:48.360 personal frustration, personal struggle, it is the raw material through which 105 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:54.840 great narratives are built. So, you know, I I think that we do, I think we 106 00:07:54.840 --> 00:08:00.860 do too much of trying to kind of write narratives for other people a little 107 00:08:00.860 --> 00:08:07.100 bit when I think that you have a better probability of success if you can solve 108 00:08:07.100 --> 00:08:11.140 your own problems and evolve that narrative for yourself. Most of the 109 00:08:11.140 --> 00:08:16.910 successful companies that I've seen or people actually not even companies, 110 00:08:16.910 --> 00:08:23.520 just people, right, they saw they have a period of frustration, there's some 111 00:08:23.520 --> 00:08:29.020 sort of problem and over time they figure out a new better way because 112 00:08:29.030 --> 00:08:33.299 there is no alternative, like the problem is so irritating to them that 113 00:08:33.299 --> 00:08:37.870 they are like destined to bring that new approach. So I think that, you know, 114 00:08:37.870 --> 00:08:42.250 a lot of people will jump into the old world, new world, old game, new game, 115 00:08:42.260 --> 00:08:47.450 which is perfect. I'm 100% on board. This is how you finalize it into a deck, 116 00:08:47.940 --> 00:08:54.070 Right? But that all that came from, you know, the garden of frustration. If it 117 00:08:54.070 --> 00:09:02.250 doesn't, you risk you risk potentially confusing, seen, um, if you're guessing 118 00:09:02.250 --> 00:09:06.830 a little bit too much, there is something powerful about the founder's 119 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:10.640 story. Probably one of the most powerful narratives you can have is 120 00:09:10.640 --> 00:09:14.050 that narrative I realized not everybody starts with that narrative, though, you 121 00:09:14.050 --> 00:09:16.620 might have bought that company, you might have inherited the company, you 122 00:09:16.620 --> 00:09:20.650 might have risen up the ranks and it wasn't your story, but now you're the 123 00:09:20.650 --> 00:09:25.140 ceo of the company right there. There's many reasons why it might not be your 124 00:09:25.140 --> 00:09:28.630 thing or you just started a spotted a market opportunity. You were familiar 125 00:09:28.630 --> 00:09:30.780 enough with the field and you capitalized on it, even though it 126 00:09:30.780 --> 00:09:35.570 wasn't your problem, um, to begin with. So it's not always, you don't always 127 00:09:35.570 --> 00:09:39.470 have the luxury of having that though if you do. And that's such a, that's 128 00:09:39.470 --> 00:09:43.930 such a strategic advantage that you have over others in the market to be 129 00:09:43.940 --> 00:09:47.340 because you have a, you have the feel yourself. It's not like you need to go 130 00:09:47.340 --> 00:09:50.100 talk to your customers so you still need to talk to them, but you don't 131 00:09:50.100 --> 00:09:52.790 have to do it quite as much to have an intuitive feeling whether something 132 00:09:52.790 --> 00:09:56.890 rings true or not with the product and with the marketing and messaging. So 133 00:09:56.890 --> 00:10:00.340 there's something about that, it is really strong. What would you say for 134 00:10:00.340 --> 00:10:04.980 everybody else? I mean, do you try to look at the old game, new game? Yeah. 135 00:10:04.990 --> 00:10:08.860 So that's the ideal. I'm painting the ideal for you there the other way can 136 00:10:08.860 --> 00:10:14.540 work. So it's not like, you know, an ultimatum or anything. Uh if you are in 137 00:10:14.540 --> 00:10:19.150 that situation where you don't you just you took over the ceo role and now 138 00:10:19.150 --> 00:10:23.760 you're running running the business and you know, the division is with you. I 139 00:10:23.770 --> 00:10:30.320 would hire somebody, I would hire somebody either either you are that 140 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:35.250 customer in a sense or you need somebody who does this, right, Andy 141 00:10:35.250 --> 00:10:39.660 Raskin or there's many others, right? But that's the first name that comes to 142 00:10:39.660 --> 00:10:44.320 my mind. So I I do think that either you have that personal experience that 143 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:47.680 frustration and you solve the problem for yourself. So you are that you are 144 00:10:47.680 --> 00:10:53.490 one of the segments of customers in a sense, or you that's not the case. And 145 00:10:53.490 --> 00:10:57.610 you need to collaborate to have a higher level of capability to be able 146 00:10:57.610 --> 00:11:03.470 to find it exactly. So that's how we discover the narrative. How does that 147 00:11:03.470 --> 00:11:10.450 bleed over into the category? Yeah. Okay, so here's the thing is I believe 148 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:16.580 that the narrative will tell you what the category is. If you do, if you 149 00:11:16.580 --> 00:11:22.980 flush it out, well, the word will surface once the narrative is clear 150 00:11:22.980 --> 00:11:26.810 enough, the word becomes obvious or the two words whatever the category is 151 00:11:26.810 --> 00:11:32.030 called. So I think that what you start to notice as you get through these, you 152 00:11:32.030 --> 00:11:36.010 know, old game, new game, old world, new world, old behavior and new 153 00:11:36.010 --> 00:11:41.350 behavior. Old results, new results, right? If you flush all those out all 154 00:11:41.350 --> 00:11:43.250 of a sudden, the words that you used 155 00:11:44.340 --> 00:11:48.160 to describe those things, the category comes out at you 156 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:54.960 because you're describing the essence of old and new in such a precise way 157 00:11:55.440 --> 00:12:00.550 that it's almost begging for this word, right? I think the problem is when 158 00:12:00.550 --> 00:12:04.860 people start brainstorming like category names a little bit too much, 159 00:12:05.340 --> 00:12:09.860 Instead of just focusing 100% of the narrative and letting that be, letting 160 00:12:09.860 --> 00:12:15.540 that be revealed, letting you reveal itself to a great extent. I think the 161 00:12:15.540 --> 00:12:19.860 category has to be greatly organic. I never sat down and was like, 162 00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:22.820 sustainable growth, you know, and brainstormed a whole bunch of other 163 00:12:22.820 --> 00:12:27.950 names for categories. So I think that my narrative, I knew my narratives 164 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:33.710 intuitively, really well and sustainable growth was just like the 165 00:12:33.710 --> 00:12:37.900 term that described clearly what I'm talking about. So let's talk about a 166 00:12:37.900 --> 00:12:40.950 few people that have been doing this well, like, let's reverse engineer what 167 00:12:40.950 --> 00:12:43.610 the narrative is, behind a few categories that have been buzzing 168 00:12:43.610 --> 00:12:46.750 around a lot. Let's start with account based marketing. What's the narrative? 169 00:12:47.540 --> 00:12:54.030 So, well, the company's marketing, the narrative is uh, quality is the new 170 00:12:54.030 --> 00:12:59.770 game, and quantity is the old game. Quality relationships is the new game, 171 00:12:59.780 --> 00:13:03.730 quantity relationships is the old game before we were due organization. 172 00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:09.220 Everybody now we're just targeting a few prioritization game. Right? The old 173 00:13:09.220 --> 00:13:10.550 the old game is uh, 174 00:13:11.640 --> 00:13:15.100 I don't know what the opposite of prioritization is. Its its target 175 00:13:15.100 --> 00:13:18.470 accounts. I'm sorry, It's target audience versus target accounts. It's 176 00:13:18.470 --> 00:13:21.770 very different. Target audience is described through demographic 177 00:13:21.770 --> 00:13:26.840 psychographic. Stargate accounts are using firma graphics, not even firma 178 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:30.970 graphics. It's not even types, it's specifically these companies, right? 179 00:13:30.970 --> 00:13:36.490 Which is a very different approach, very different approach. So, A A b M, a 180 00:13:36.490 --> 00:13:41.940 b M says that, You know, 3% of your people are going to outperform The 181 00:13:41.940 --> 00:13:46.560 other 97%, basically, uh by a multiple 182 00:13:47.640 --> 00:13:51.590 saying that there's this tiny second of people that's actually meant to be in a 183 00:13:51.590 --> 00:13:58.050 relationship with you. So, the older ways kind of suggest that, you know, we 184 00:13:58.050 --> 00:14:02.590 can just kind of have more mediocre relationships and that's not going to 185 00:14:02.590 --> 00:14:07.220 pull down. It's not going to weigh down our ship, right? So, yeah, I mean, 186 00:14:07.220 --> 00:14:11.510 that's a B M is a great, a great example. You go and go to demand gen, 187 00:14:11.520 --> 00:14:15.360 right legion manage. And it's funny, both both of them have a very different, 188 00:14:15.370 --> 00:14:18.950 they both come out of a frustration and that marketing B2B marketing is not 189 00:14:18.950 --> 00:14:23.180 working, but both have different, a different way of emphasizing and a 190 00:14:23.180 --> 00:14:27.430 different narrative behind them, right? With a BMX, we're not targeting the 191 00:14:27.430 --> 00:14:30.940 right accounts or we're targeting too many accounts with demand jin, it's 192 00:14:30.950 --> 00:14:37.240 we're not getting ahead of people, right? I mean, chris walker, we the MQM 193 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:41.990 is dead, we're just generating bad leads, you know, instead of actually 194 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:47.110 helping people desire what we're even offering. Yes, we need to get ahead by 195 00:14:47.110 --> 00:14:52.850 generating demand instead of capturing demand. I think it's the drum of demand 196 00:14:52.850 --> 00:14:56.080 jin get ahead of it, generate demand before it's just capturing it. 197 00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:00.760 Otherwise somebody else will generate it and capture it. If you generate it, 198 00:15:00.770 --> 00:15:04.580 you generally capture it. Right? And that's kind of the thing, they're 199 00:15:04.580 --> 00:15:09.110 linked together. Yeah, so so yeah, demand gen is a great one. We could do 200 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:16.810 um gong right, goodbye opinions. Hello! Reality! Revenue Intelligence is kind 201 00:15:16.810 --> 00:15:22.360 of the kevin now. Their narrative is interesting because I've heard, yeah, 202 00:15:22.370 --> 00:15:26.580 he was on the show recently and talking about how the narrative came out of 203 00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:32.190 well, we wanted to be able to sell to uh Cros and they weren't buying our 204 00:15:32.190 --> 00:15:36.270 previous narrative, they weren't buying because we didn't have a category. We 205 00:15:36.270 --> 00:15:40.790 were a sales call center tool instead of a revenue tool. So we changed the 206 00:15:40.790 --> 00:15:45.070 category specifically to target enterprise level cros who weren't 207 00:15:45.070 --> 00:15:48.490 interested in our thing. We wanted to make them interested in our things. So 208 00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:51.340 we changed, we created everything around this category called Revenue 209 00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:54.110 Intelligence, so that the sierra would pay attention, but it doesn't come out 210 00:15:54.110 --> 00:16:01.150 of like a dying need. Okay, so their situation is more of the is more of the 211 00:16:01.150 --> 00:16:04.260 other situation that we're talking about where, you know, there's 212 00:16:04.260 --> 00:16:07.670 investors and there's, you know, funding and there's a Ceo who comes in 213 00:16:07.670 --> 00:16:12.360 and CMO and we'll be able to block. I just think that they hired Andy Raskin 214 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:17.710 did. They worked with somebody who's talking with us the whole time building 215 00:16:17.710 --> 00:16:22.450 the narrative. So, so it just goes to show you they didn't do that in a 216 00:16:22.450 --> 00:16:27.200 bubble. You know, isolated siloed, they went to someone who's been doing this 217 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:33.030 their entire career and he facilitated that process for them and eventually 218 00:16:33.030 --> 00:16:38.480 they stuck with something, right, and it work. So yeah, it's really sometimes 219 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:44.080 sometimes it is literally solving your own problems, a massive problem and 220 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:47.830 creating that new approach, or it's like you already have a new approach to 221 00:16:47.830 --> 00:16:53.070 something, but you're just not framing it correctly. So people understand you 222 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:57.500 and that was their situation. They're like, people don't actually care about 223 00:16:57.510 --> 00:16:59.060 what we're calling this thing, 224 00:17:00.540 --> 00:17:02.970 like we're calling it something that's absolutely killing us. 225 00:17:04.040 --> 00:17:07.930 Instead of coming up with something original essentially becomes a 226 00:17:07.930 --> 00:17:11.819 repositioning play. But you're repositioning in a new category, you're 227 00:17:11.819 --> 00:17:16.069 taking something you already do well and refocusing it, which is why 228 00:17:16.069 --> 00:17:20.700 category design ultimately falls under positioning as a, I guess, a marketing 229 00:17:20.700 --> 00:17:24.569 term. So we've talked a lot about narrative, we've talked about how it 230 00:17:24.569 --> 00:17:28.910 informs the category. Let's talk about how the category informs the community. 231 00:17:28.910 --> 00:17:31.980 And I've heard a lot of people say like, you don't really have a category until 232 00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:36.530 you have a community, like the evidence of a community shows that you actually 233 00:17:36.530 --> 00:17:42.510 have a real category. Yes. Yes and no, it's both. So it's a complicated answer. 234 00:17:42.520 --> 00:17:47.300 Yes. The community is the category. You design the category to build the 235 00:17:47.300 --> 00:17:50.830 community. That is the purpose of designing the category in my mind, 236 00:17:50.840 --> 00:17:56.300 Right? So they are connected so tightly, like they're almost one, right? However, 237 00:17:56.300 --> 00:18:00.930 there's there's a reason why separated those two things into phases, because I 238 00:18:00.930 --> 00:18:06.080 was highlighting the differences between that. So, for me, I see the 239 00:18:06.080 --> 00:18:15.290 category design um as designing your educational materials and facilitation, 240 00:18:15.300 --> 00:18:20.070 community facilitation process, right? There's this new approach and you're 241 00:18:20.070 --> 00:18:27.630 calling it this thing. But do you have the wealth of of resources? Do you have 242 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:31.950 those capabilities there for the community to take advantage of? So that 243 00:18:31.950 --> 00:18:35.750 you can facilitate success at scale because the category happens when their 244 00:18:35.750 --> 00:18:41.720 success at scale uh to me. Right. And so if you're looking at category design 245 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:47.430 is just like a way to own some sort of term, I think you're missing out on a 246 00:18:47.430 --> 00:18:54.000 large part of the final and the revenue. So I suggest always looking at category 247 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:59.420 design as your your facilitation process. How are you going to make 248 00:18:59.420 --> 00:19:04.160 things easier for people to act upon and actually do stuff? Right. If we 249 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:08.080 want people to start podcasts, we have to make it easier for them to start 250 00:19:08.080 --> 00:19:13.070 podcasts. Somehow. If we want people to change from legions of demand jin we 251 00:19:13.070 --> 00:19:18.790 have to make it easier for them to make those moves without us. Right. And so 252 00:19:18.800 --> 00:19:25.940 the category design is a lot about facilitating community success. Hey, 253 00:19:25.940 --> 00:19:29.390 everybody Logan with sweet fish here. If you've been listening to the show 254 00:19:29.390 --> 00:19:33.070 for a while, you know, we're big proponents of putting out original 255 00:19:33.080 --> 00:19:37.120 organic content on linked in. But one thing that's always been a struggle for 256 00:19:37.120 --> 00:19:41.780 a team like ours is to easily track the reach of that linked in content. That's 257 00:19:41.780 --> 00:19:45.100 why I was really excited when I heard about Shield the other day from a 258 00:19:45.100 --> 00:19:49.630 connection on you guessed it linked in since our team started using Shield. 259 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:54.000 I've loved how it's led us easily track and analyze the performance of 260 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:58.180 Arlington content without having to manually log it ourselves. It 261 00:19:58.190 --> 00:20:01.550 automatically creates reports and generate some dashboards that are 262 00:20:01.550 --> 00:20:05.810 incredibly useful to see things like what contents been performing the best 263 00:20:05.820 --> 00:20:09.300 and what days of the week are we getting the most engagement and our 264 00:20:09.310 --> 00:20:13.320 average views per post. I highly suggest you guys check out this tool if 265 00:20:13.320 --> 00:20:17.270 you're putting out content on linked in and if you're not, you should be, it's 266 00:20:17.270 --> 00:20:22.290 been a game changer for us. If you go to shield app dot ai and check out the 267 00:20:22.290 --> 00:20:28.020 10 day free trial, you can even use our promo code B two B growth to get a 25% 268 00:20:28.020 --> 00:20:33.930 discount again, that's shield app dot Ai. And that promo code is B the number 269 00:20:33.930 --> 00:20:41.960 two. The growth. All one word. All right, let's get back to the show. As 270 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:45.770 you were talking. It occurred to me like with the narrative, you have the y 271 00:20:45.780 --> 00:20:48.980 with the category, you have the what with the community, you have the who? 272 00:20:48.990 --> 00:20:52.590 It's almost like Simon cynics like golden circles or whatever, but you're 273 00:20:52.600 --> 00:20:57.470 dropping the the how with the who. But you have to start with the compelling 274 00:20:57.470 --> 00:21:01.490 why. That's the reason why we're all here. The reason why the what is so 275 00:21:01.490 --> 00:21:04.740 important, which is the category. It's a new way of thinking, it's a new 276 00:21:04.740 --> 00:21:09.850 methodology, it's a new framework or way of doing things. Um but it's all 277 00:21:09.850 --> 00:21:13.200 informed by the why, which is why you have to sometimes you can you run into 278 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:17.630 a compelling, like what how to do things, but you don't have a computer, 279 00:21:17.630 --> 00:21:20.550 you have to figure out why people should care, right? Which is why the 280 00:21:20.550 --> 00:21:23.490 narrative so important. And if they don't have a reason to care, it's kind 281 00:21:23.490 --> 00:21:28.270 of like it just kind of gets lumped in with everything else and people forget 282 00:21:28.270 --> 00:21:33.090 about it. But if you come up with the compelling why and how in a way to 283 00:21:33.090 --> 00:21:36.730 approach that why, which is the category, then the community cares, and 284 00:21:36.730 --> 00:21:38.760 that's where a lot of other people start to get around it. 285 00:21:40.140 --> 00:21:44.710 Is that about right? That's brilliant, man. That's brilliant. I love matching 286 00:21:44.710 --> 00:21:52.010 you know, uh why? What? How and who, why? What, how and who around this. I 287 00:21:52.010 --> 00:21:55.290 think that's a beautiful, beautiful comparison. That's a beautiful 288 00:21:55.290 --> 00:22:00.700 comparison down. Let me go making progress together. So we're around this 289 00:22:00.700 --> 00:22:04.200 circle, let's bring it back. So, we have the narrative, we have a 290 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:08.940 compelling why we have the category, which is the how we're addressing this. 291 00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:12.340 Why? And now we have a bunch of people that are that are nodding their heads 292 00:22:12.340 --> 00:22:16.100 with us and saying yes, this is the way, you know, which is like your most 293 00:22:16.100 --> 00:22:22.390 probably the most common hashtag I see you throwing out there. Um um so we 294 00:22:22.390 --> 00:22:26.240 have a community around this new way of doing things to address the why? How 295 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:28.170 does that come back to inform the why? 296 00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:34.830 Okay, that's good. That's good. Okay, So yeah, basically what happens is the 297 00:22:34.830 --> 00:22:38.960 companies that That designed the category just to be # one. 298 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:44.470 Don't end up building the community. Right. Okay. The companies that design 299 00:22:44.470 --> 00:22:48.250 a category with the intent of building the community and that building the 300 00:22:48.250 --> 00:22:52.880 community and facilitating community success. So what ends up happening in 301 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:58.920 that community building process is that you are seeing your approach, your 302 00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:04.970 methodology, playing out at scale and you're engaging and interacting with 303 00:23:04.970 --> 00:23:09.980 the people who are applying that methodology, right? And you're getting 304 00:23:09.980 --> 00:23:15.860 such a good diversity of examples in the community 305 00:23:17.040 --> 00:23:24.270 that another level of clarity starts to emerge over time and becomes another 306 00:23:24.300 --> 00:23:30.000 problem. Another problem emerges so that we can get to the next level of 307 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:35.560 success, right? So the community shows you a bigger problem 308 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:39.560 that's connected to your original problem, but it's the next one on the 309 00:23:39.560 --> 00:23:44.460 ladder, right? It's the next logical problem that's going to occur for your 310 00:23:44.460 --> 00:23:49.780 community. So, I think that the people who get too caught up in just the 311 00:23:49.780 --> 00:23:56.260 company, the GTM, the company part of the go to market, right? And they 312 00:23:56.260 --> 00:24:03.300 neglect that wider, looser community building part of the process. They 313 00:24:03.300 --> 00:24:07.760 never end up getting the type of perspective, customer perspective or 314 00:24:07.760 --> 00:24:13.920 player perspective people who are playing this game right? They are 315 00:24:13.930 --> 00:24:18.710 generally focused on the numbers from their own customers are getting new 316 00:24:18.710 --> 00:24:22.290 customers, but they're not actually focused on the success stories or the 317 00:24:22.290 --> 00:24:27.840 failure stories, which is where those insights emerged from. It's interesting. 318 00:24:27.840 --> 00:24:31.440 I'm trying to think of examples of companies making the jump more than 319 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:35.700 once. I'll probably think of some though, I can think of a few that are 320 00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:40.150 making the jump now. I mean totally the A. B. M. Communities totally making 321 00:24:40.150 --> 00:24:44.430 jump. Sand grams making his move with his next book trying to evolve as as 322 00:24:44.430 --> 00:24:48.180 the A B. M community has gotten bigger and has identified problems with the 323 00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:52.170 approach because it's not a one size fits all. There are nuances to it. So 324 00:24:52.170 --> 00:24:56.070 naturally the community is going to evolve in demand base is taking their 325 00:24:56.080 --> 00:25:00.610 narrative is trying to trying to apply their what they think is the narrative 326 00:25:00.610 --> 00:25:04.820 is with A B X. And I think Sandra is taking a more GTM approach with his 327 00:25:04.830 --> 00:25:08.160 question right? It's funny to see which one of them actually has the narrative. 328 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:13.550 Right? That's exactly it. So if I am correct, maybe I'm not correct. Let's 329 00:25:13.550 --> 00:25:18.170 just see how it goes. If I'm correct, then some drums way 330 00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:20.550 is a better way. 331 00:25:21.740 --> 00:25:24.370 Unless I don't know something about the man base where they built this great 332 00:25:24.370 --> 00:25:27.860 community and they found all this out to the community. Maybe that's true, 333 00:25:27.870 --> 00:25:32.110 right? But if we're going to play out like a science experiment, this is a 334 00:25:32.110 --> 00:25:38.830 good test of whether the community reveals a better narrative or whether 335 00:25:38.840 --> 00:25:42.670 you can kind of just piece that together without, without that, you 336 00:25:42.670 --> 00:25:48.090 know, so one live, I don't actually understand the nuances of how Sandra 337 00:25:48.090 --> 00:25:52.620 was doing it. I understand demand basis route. I actually even talk to Sandra 338 00:25:52.620 --> 00:25:55.940 about it and I was like, I'm still, I'm still waiting for his book to come out 339 00:25:55.940 --> 00:25:59.010 and then I'll probably understand demand base is coming out an approach 340 00:25:59.010 --> 00:26:03.940 of like A B. X. Is taking a BM and working it through the whole life cycle 341 00:26:03.940 --> 00:26:07.800 of the account. Like why do we just leave it as a marketing sales thing? 342 00:26:07.800 --> 00:26:11.190 Let's work it through as a customer success thing and retention thing a 343 00:26:11.190 --> 00:26:13.900 turn things like you should be the whole the whole company should be 344 00:26:13.900 --> 00:26:17.560 focused on A B. M. Right? Yeah. I think that's where they're going with it. He 345 00:26:17.560 --> 00:26:20.850 just right. What can I haven't read it. But I think from what I've heard from 346 00:26:20.850 --> 00:26:26.080 him, john miller, I agree with that. I agree with that 100% to me. To be 347 00:26:26.080 --> 00:26:35.160 honest, A B. M. Is shifted two thirds to your current clients. It's not even 348 00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:39.080 like that. I'm just coming with a number but it's hedged towards your 349 00:26:39.080 --> 00:26:43.330 current clients. That that's actually what it says because you're, you're 350 00:26:43.330 --> 00:26:48.050 expanding an account. The whole concept of A B. M. Is to expand accounts. 351 00:26:48.740 --> 00:26:54.630 There's an appreciation, content of appreciation happening in a BM over 352 00:26:54.630 --> 00:26:59.150 time. So I think, I think that they, I think they're both right. You know, 353 00:26:59.150 --> 00:27:05.090 like GTM there is this orchestration between marketing and customer success 354 00:27:05.090 --> 00:27:10.340 or marketing sales and customer success, right? There also is this truth that A 355 00:27:10.340 --> 00:27:15.450 B. M. Is a full life cycle uh strategy, Right? And so what's beautiful is that 356 00:27:15.460 --> 00:27:20.480 these two companies have agreed to no longer compete? Yeah, it's true. 357 00:27:20.490 --> 00:27:24.140 They're splitting, splitting the IBM community and they're different fields 358 00:27:24.140 --> 00:27:27.640 and we'll see which one becomes the bigger, more profitable one. Or maybe 359 00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:30.920 they both because it's not a zero sum game. Maybe both are wildly successful, 360 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:33.730 right? I think that's a problem and I hope, I hope the best for beth because 361 00:27:33.730 --> 00:27:37.770 they're both doing some cool stuff. We're still having a hard time. I can 362 00:27:37.770 --> 00:27:40.600 think of a few that have made the jump once. I can't think of a single company 363 00:27:40.600 --> 00:27:44.910 that's made the jump multiple times now. It takes probably a decade or two to 364 00:27:44.910 --> 00:27:48.560 jump more than twice, so Oh my God, maybe I just haven't been in the market 365 00:27:48.560 --> 00:27:52.450 long enough myself to actually watch it happening. So I'm like, I don't know if 366 00:27:52.450 --> 00:27:55.650 adobes how many times adobes had to reinvent themselves because they've 367 00:27:55.650 --> 00:28:01.990 been around at least 30 40 years now. So I'm trying to think of some larger 368 00:28:01.990 --> 00:28:04.450 companies that have been around a long time and had to reinvent themselves 369 00:28:04.450 --> 00:28:08.420 multiple times. But even category design as a, as a thing, hasn't been 370 00:28:08.420 --> 00:28:09.670 around for more than 371 00:28:10.840 --> 00:28:15.140 30 years. Exactly, So we're early positioning was invented in the late 372 00:28:15.140 --> 00:28:20.200 70s, right? So it's like a Ken it hasn't been that long. Yeah. Yeah, I 373 00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:25.770 mean, I just think you see examples of companies that do reinvent themselves 374 00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:32.120 long term, we're definitely having trouble breaking through a single s 375 00:28:32.120 --> 00:28:39.720 skirt in a sense like we haven't really done that. Yeah we this goes for 376 00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:45.710 countries as well or empires, We always ride one s curve and we never we never 377 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:49.740 break our own business, Someone else always breaks us because we think we're 378 00:28:49.740 --> 00:28:54.870 number one there's definitely been companies that go through reinvention 379 00:28:54.870 --> 00:28:58.750 multiple times. Dave Ramsey is a good example because he's had big, he's had 380 00:28:58.750 --> 00:29:02.050 big launches and then dips and then reinventions and then dips. I think 381 00:29:02.050 --> 00:29:04.750 he's gone through about three now, maybe he's probably four or five 382 00:29:04.760 --> 00:29:07.650 because he's he's they've been around longer than what most people think. 383 00:29:07.660 --> 00:29:11.730 Remember he got really big in the late two thousands around the recession 384 00:29:11.730 --> 00:29:15.130 right? But I don't think he's gone through like a whole category 385 00:29:15.130 --> 00:29:18.880 reinvention, he's kind of been a category, this is a different so he's a 386 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:24.440 different conversation um creating different categories though is hard, 387 00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:28.240 like creating, creating one successful category. And writing that is difficult 388 00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:33.690 enough doing it twice as like, man, that's now, you're like as if it wasn't 389 00:29:33.690 --> 00:29:37.780 a unicorn enough. Now you're a double unicorn to be a triple unicorn, that's 390 00:29:37.780 --> 00:29:42.960 kind of difficult. So sonograms going going for that. He wants to design GTM, 391 00:29:43.540 --> 00:29:47.010 right, you don't have to create it, you just have to design it and have a 392 00:29:47.010 --> 00:29:51.560 better to have the best narrative around it. But hubspot, you know, let's 393 00:29:51.560 --> 00:29:57.540 just look at hubspot. They started with inbound marketing is the category. They 394 00:29:57.540 --> 00:30:03.800 had this flywheel Yeah, that was bound market, yep. Right, So they had a 395 00:30:03.800 --> 00:30:06.670 narrative around inbound marketing about how the world had changed 396 00:30:07.940 --> 00:30:13.030 and how outbound was not going to produce a good results for you the way 397 00:30:13.030 --> 00:30:20.500 the inbound was. Right then over time, they basically layered on complementary 398 00:30:20.500 --> 00:30:27.430 services until they, until it merited a new category. Right category are they 399 00:30:27.430 --> 00:30:30.910 in Now? I'm like looking at their website and I'm like, yeah, this is the 400 00:30:30.910 --> 00:30:34.760 number one, the number one crm for scaling for scaling companies is their 401 00:30:34.760 --> 00:30:38.260 tagline the number one crm for scaling companies. So they are trying to be 402 00:30:38.260 --> 00:30:43.240 number one Crn is the category that they've gone into. So they went from 403 00:30:43.250 --> 00:30:53.820 inbound marketing software to Crn and Crm with kind of a rev ups GTM 404 00:30:53.830 --> 00:31:01.430 narrative behind it. Right? So yeah, it's very interesting to me which which 405 00:31:01.430 --> 00:31:05.810 is the second level category that these companies end up going towards off of 406 00:31:05.810 --> 00:31:10.660 their initial category, which is more of like based around that problem 407 00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:16.470 product fit in the market place. But as they expand to the platform, this is 408 00:31:16.470 --> 00:31:22.100 when the new category to call this thing, this platform emerges. Right? So 409 00:31:22.100 --> 00:31:26.260 the number, the number one crm, for scaling companies, Okay, They're trying 410 00:31:26.260 --> 00:31:30.660 to differentiate from all the other crm is by saying for scaling, I don't know 411 00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:34.000 how much I agree with that, They're pretty big. I mean we use them and I've 412 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:37.040 looked at a lot of Crm, so I'm like, yeah, I'd agree with that, that they'd 413 00:31:37.040 --> 00:31:39.490 be the number one for that level. They're definitely not in the small 414 00:31:39.490 --> 00:31:42.570 business category and they get destroyed by salesforce in the 415 00:31:42.570 --> 00:31:46.650 enterprise. So I'd say they probably do hold the number one position as far as 416 00:31:46.650 --> 00:31:50.150 well. It's in my mind and I think in other people's minds, I think that's 417 00:31:50.150 --> 00:31:53.210 true. I think they are definitely number one, definitely number one. But 418 00:31:53.210 --> 00:31:56.250 it is in question came back from inbound marketing because obviously 419 00:31:56.250 --> 00:32:00.870 they see RMS became so helpful and just marketing, the whole company pivoted 420 00:32:00.870 --> 00:32:03.890 around it, just why they've added customer success and all that kind of 421 00:32:03.890 --> 00:32:09.800 stuff to it. It's become a the central source of truth. We call it at sweet 422 00:32:09.800 --> 00:32:15.140 fish for information related to all things in your business. Absolutely, 423 00:32:15.150 --> 00:32:20.790 Absolutely. Yeah. So I think there's an interesting game playing out in that, 424 00:32:20.800 --> 00:32:25.760 in that market sale, that you can see how it started. Salesforce started as 425 00:32:25.760 --> 00:32:31.470 the sales software, not the marketing inbound software, right? And you kind 426 00:32:31.470 --> 00:32:36.320 of see how those things evolve into platforms and you see how they label 427 00:32:36.320 --> 00:32:41.510 that afterwards, or how, how, how, how they communicate that to the 428 00:32:41.510 --> 00:32:44.980 marketplace. Um, so yeah, I think looking looking at different companies 429 00:32:44.980 --> 00:32:51.460 and that trajectory and how they did that good and bad, it is super useful. 430 00:32:51.840 --> 00:32:53.460 And, you know, I would just, 431 00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:59.650 I don't think hubspot, I think that they should move heavily into that 432 00:32:59.650 --> 00:33:05.110 community building phase now, this is the way I'm thinking about it. Um I 433 00:33:05.110 --> 00:33:09.900 think that they did a great job with narrative and category and now they 434 00:33:09.910 --> 00:33:17.230 know they acquired this um publication community. Yeah, but I believe, I 435 00:33:17.230 --> 00:33:21.000 believe that this is sort of the problem with trying to be number one is 436 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:25.460 you end up wanting to acquire the community instead of building, because 437 00:33:25.460 --> 00:33:28.200 building it requires you to have humility, as in like, no, we're all 438 00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:32.800 doing this together, it's our narrative, it's not my narrative. So whenever you 439 00:33:32.800 --> 00:33:38.060 see someone put number one next to their name, you can they probably won't 440 00:33:38.060 --> 00:33:42.390 go all the way with the community stuff. I have my doubts, you know, that's 441 00:33:42.390 --> 00:33:45.770 interesting, interesting inside, if you have to say your number one, then 442 00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:49.240 community might be a struggle, often pay attention to that and see if I find 443 00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:53.650 it to be true. It kind of makes sense. As I've been doing a lot of research 444 00:33:53.650 --> 00:33:57.050 and thought leadership, we all know the number rule number one rule of thought 445 00:33:57.050 --> 00:34:02.180 leadership is you can't call yourself that if you do, you're not the idea of 446 00:34:02.180 --> 00:34:06.240 companies calling themselves. Number one is the exact same concept or 447 00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:09.310 personal branding. People calling themselves number one at something, 448 00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:13.380 Right? Just design the category, build a community and let people call you 449 00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:19.150 that if they want, ma'am, that's powerful. It's been a fantastic talk. 450 00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:23.449 If there's anything I didn't ask, but I should have asked, what would that be? 451 00:34:23.449 --> 00:34:26.110 And what is what are some final thoughts for the audience is there 452 00:34:26.110 --> 00:34:29.360 considering and wrestling? I'm sure they're wrestling with it as much as we 453 00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:32.940 are at sweet fish around narrative category. In community. Any parting 454 00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:38.159 thoughts? Yeah, I would just say that there are activities that you can do 455 00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:41.820 where you are doing all three of these phases. You're working on all three of 456 00:34:41.820 --> 00:34:47.020 them at the same time. So podcasting, you understand where I'm going with 457 00:34:47.020 --> 00:34:51.480 this. There are things you can do where you get insights in all three areas and 458 00:34:51.489 --> 00:34:55.730 you advance in all three areas simultaneously. So there are individual 459 00:34:55.730 --> 00:34:59.690 activities for each of these things. But trying to identify the core 460 00:34:59.690 --> 00:35:04.840 activities that that that nurture the garden in each of these areas and 461 00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:09.060 aren't just kind of siloed into one. Right? I think that's how you can build 462 00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:13.410 uh momentum over time. That is interesting. I am trying to I am 463 00:35:13.410 --> 00:35:17.170 wrestling with all three at the same time and it's like tweaks, it's just 464 00:35:17.170 --> 00:35:20.540 subtle tweaks to the narrative while you're trying to frame the category and 465 00:35:20.540 --> 00:35:23.250 sometimes you're like, oh, I think we got the right framing on the category. 466 00:35:23.250 --> 00:35:26.410 You're like, oh, but that doesn't it doesn't fit the narrative we wrote last 467 00:35:26.410 --> 00:35:29.710 week, crap. Now I have to rewrite it because now the two don't fit in the 468 00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:33.150 meantime, you are continuing to move forward and build community around this 469 00:35:33.150 --> 00:35:36.960 thing. You're usually including parts of the community in the conversation as 470 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:41.390 you're testing it out with them. Right? So it is this collaborative process and 471 00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:45.510 I mean, my hope is that we finally get it all three to be right and then bam 472 00:35:45.510 --> 00:35:52.760 it clicks in, it spins, it creates momentum. I think that if companies 473 00:35:53.140 --> 00:35:58.750 sort of come at it from this angle, I think that we'll have a healthier 474 00:35:58.750 --> 00:36:03.630 business environment uh in the long term, and I think people will be 475 00:36:03.630 --> 00:36:08.860 happier with their work in the long term because this is really about, you 476 00:36:08.860 --> 00:36:15.640 know, purpose and unity making money through purpose and unity as opposed to 477 00:36:15.640 --> 00:36:20.450 competition. Right? So yeah, that's kind of the philosophy of that wheel 478 00:36:21.130 --> 00:36:25.400 interesting. Would you recommend people invite their competitors to be part of 479 00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:31.590 the conversation or just some customers? Well, if you here's the thing, if 480 00:36:31.590 --> 00:36:35.350 you've evolved the narrative enough, then you don't really have competitors 481 00:36:36.130 --> 00:36:42.310 in your mind. So if you haven't evolved the narrative enough, like you need, 482 00:36:42.310 --> 00:36:47.120 you need to get people who already believe in the thing you do. So if 483 00:36:47.120 --> 00:36:50.760 these are old competitors, previous competitors, they no longer are because 484 00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:56.090 you have evolved then you know, I don't know, trying to get them on board with 485 00:36:56.090 --> 00:37:00.670 the thing, it might be difficult, but if you move into another area and you 486 00:37:00.670 --> 00:37:04.330 just find players who believe in the same thing and execute on that, you 487 00:37:04.330 --> 00:37:05.850 should invite all of those people, 488 00:37:06.930 --> 00:37:10.080 you should share the category with them. You should share the category with them 489 00:37:10.080 --> 00:37:14.530 and say, no, this is not our academy, my category, this is ours, Let's move 490 00:37:14.530 --> 00:37:18.660 this baby, right? And let's get some momentum here and grow this market. 491 00:37:19.430 --> 00:37:23.150 That is the type of collaboration that that that that moves things. You know, 492 00:37:23.830 --> 00:37:27.000 It's part of the narrative. Even thinking about sweet fishes narrative. 493 00:37:27.010 --> 00:37:29.950 Like the way we approach BTB podcasting is just different than all our 494 00:37:29.950 --> 00:37:34.270 competitors. And so just by naturally me thinking about that, it actually 495 00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:38.770 excludes 90% because 90% don't think the way we think and don't, we don't 496 00:37:38.770 --> 00:37:43.140 even have the same narrative like the way they approach podcasting. So but 497 00:37:43.140 --> 00:37:46.540 there are a few that I'm like actually there's probably like two that I'm like 498 00:37:47.030 --> 00:37:50.260 I'd invite them in and honestly there's enough market share to go around for 499 00:37:50.260 --> 00:37:53.720 all of us. So that makes sense because you guys are gonna evolve the narrative 500 00:37:53.720 --> 00:37:57.880 anyways later on and split in different directions, like, like like sonogram 501 00:37:57.880 --> 00:38:02.170 and and this other company. Right? So this is the idea of that, that initial 502 00:38:02.170 --> 00:38:05.640 category creation. We want to collaborate because we're moving 503 00:38:05.640 --> 00:38:10.270 something massive and inertia is strong to get this bad boy going. We need 504 00:38:10.270 --> 00:38:15.250 collaboration and unity here, uh, to get it going fast fast enough, right? 505 00:38:15.260 --> 00:38:20.200 Or else it'll just take forever. So yeah, yeah. Man, I I think that the 506 00:38:20.200 --> 00:38:23.670 moral of the story on that, which is great because that's an underlying 507 00:38:23.670 --> 00:38:27.000 thing. I'm going to have to flush out a bunch of documents, a bunch of decks on 508 00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:33.420 this on this cycle. But these are like the underlying truths that you don't 509 00:38:33.420 --> 00:38:38.510 see necessarily on the surface on the model. But if you talk about it and dig 510 00:38:38.510 --> 00:38:42.080 into it, you start to realize these types of things, ma'am, I think you 511 00:38:42.080 --> 00:38:46.240 need to keep working on this flushing it out. Honestly, it would be a really 512 00:38:46.240 --> 00:38:51.130 fun book to read now, would read it or listen to it at least. So as you 513 00:38:51.130 --> 00:38:54.770 continue, keep me up to date and uh if you have another breakthrough 514 00:38:54.770 --> 00:38:57.170 revelation about this working, we'll have you back on the show to be a lot 515 00:38:57.170 --> 00:39:00.900 of fun. I know this has been insightful for me and I know we'll be insightful 516 00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:05.660 for the GDP growth audience, so thank you so much for joining us on the show 517 00:39:05.660 --> 00:39:09.040 today. I appreciate that dan. Thanks everyone for listening. 518 00:39:10.820 --> 00:39:14.470 One of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth is that word of 519 00:39:14.470 --> 00:39:19.150 mouth works. It works really, really well actually. So if you love this show, 520 00:39:19.150 --> 00:39:23.060 it would be awesome if you texted a friend to tell them about it. And if 521 00:39:23.060 --> 00:39:27.380 you send me a text with a screenshot of the text you sent to your friend meta, 522 00:39:27.390 --> 00:39:31.040 I know I'll send you a copy of my book, Content based networking how to 523 00:39:31.050 --> 00:39:34.480 instantly connect with anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 524 00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:39.830 40749033 to 8 Happy texting.