#H2H 8: Holding Brands To The Truth Standard w/ Katie Martell

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:05.559 Looking for a guaranteed way to create content that resonates with your audience? Start 2 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:10.470 a podcast, interview your ideal clients and let them choose the topic of the 3 00:00:10.589 --> 00:00:14.910 interview, because if your ideal clients care about the topic, there's a good 4 00:00:14.949 --> 00:00:18.789 chance the rest of your audience will care about it too. Learn more at 5 00:00:18.829 --> 00:00:27.219 sweet fish Mediacom. You're listening to be tob growth, a daily podcast for 6 00:00:27.379 --> 00:00:31.539 B TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary vanner 7 00:00:31.579 --> 00:00:35.340 truck and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority of our 8 00:00:35.420 --> 00:00:40.369 guests. That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. 9 00:00:40.929 --> 00:00:44.289 Most of our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. 10 00:00:44.570 --> 00:00:49.729 They're implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BB 11 00:00:49.850 --> 00:00:53.200 companies in the world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of 12 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:57.079 sweet fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one 13 00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:00.719 of the CO hosts of this show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing 14 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:03.629 leaders, you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of our own business. Will 15 00:01:03.670 --> 00:01:07.950 share the ups and downs of our journey as we attempt to take over the 16 00:01:07.030 --> 00:01:18.780 world. Just getting well? Maybe let's get into the show. Welcome to 17 00:01:18.819 --> 00:01:23.459 the B Tob Gross show, the human to humans segment. I am Carlos 18 00:01:23.500 --> 00:01:26.980 Hidalgo, CEO and founder of is M C X and also author of the 19 00:01:27.180 --> 00:01:34.450 newly published book the UN American Dream. Today I have with me a woman 20 00:01:34.450 --> 00:01:38.609 who has many talents, is known for many things and, quite honestly, 21 00:01:38.769 --> 00:01:42.890 is one of my favorite people is that I've ever had the opportunity to work 22 00:01:42.930 --> 00:01:47.010 with. And so, Katie Martel welcome to the B Tob Gross show. 23 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:51.079 Wow, thanks, Carlos. Glad to be here. Excellent. Why? 24 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:53.480 I know you're busy, so I really do. Thank you for the time 25 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:57.640 and I know our guests are going to be in for a treat just hearing 26 00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:00.790 you. So, before we go any further, tell us fuup Katie Martella's 27 00:02:02.230 --> 00:02:07.269 I thought that this is the human to human segment of the podcast. Allegedly, 28 00:02:07.590 --> 00:02:09.789 you and I are both human as well, but now I at this 29 00:02:09.949 --> 00:02:15.900 is a great identifying as today. Yes, it's most days. No, 30 00:02:15.580 --> 00:02:19.500 it's great to be here. This is a really fun podcast. You and 31 00:02:19.580 --> 00:02:23.500 then the team do a great job. So thanks for having me. Quick 32 00:02:23.539 --> 00:02:28.580 Summary about me. I have been in marketing all of my career, but 33 00:02:28.780 --> 00:02:34.250 it's been uniquely focused on marketing to marketers from a variety of angles. I've 34 00:02:34.289 --> 00:02:38.889 worked both vender side at data services companies. I've worked at PR firms, 35 00:02:38.250 --> 00:02:43.569 selling to marketers but helping them launch businesses. A lot of startup background. 36 00:02:43.610 --> 00:02:47.120 Had My own start up for a while, so it entrepreneurial adventure and that 37 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:51.159 was also a marketing tech brand. This sold, you know, into the 38 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:55.039 marketing world. Since about two thousand and sixteen or so, I've been independent 39 00:02:55.199 --> 00:03:00.509 in which is given me a different perspective on marketing from someone who can now 40 00:03:00.629 --> 00:03:04.270 be a bit of a, I'll say, skeptic, a bit of a 41 00:03:04.349 --> 00:03:08.150 truthteller. I have the amazing opportunity to speak all over the world actually about 42 00:03:08.550 --> 00:03:15.060 what we do as marketers and really enjoy this kind of freedom to call bs 43 00:03:15.180 --> 00:03:19.379 on the industry while hopefully repeating back to marketers how they can get better. 44 00:03:19.539 --> 00:03:23.259 So things like this really helped do that. So appreciate the platform absolutely. 45 00:03:23.580 --> 00:03:29.770 So one of your one of the ways you describe yourself is an unapologetic truth 46 00:03:29.889 --> 00:03:34.449 teller, and you just said something about calling bs on what you see in 47 00:03:34.569 --> 00:03:39.210 the industry and as human beings we don't often receive that really well once someone 48 00:03:39.370 --> 00:03:45.759 calls b us on either our work or something we're doing. So how does 49 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:50.280 that go over? How do you how do you approach that with your clients 50 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:53.400 or even perhaps colleagues or vendors you may work with? Just from a human 51 00:03:53.479 --> 00:04:00.030 perspective, I feel like BS is the most important part of creating change. 52 00:04:00.389 --> 00:04:04.590 You know, we really can positive change in our own lives, important change 53 00:04:04.629 --> 00:04:09.229 in the industries, or change in, say, the markets that we're trying 54 00:04:09.310 --> 00:04:13.580 to create, buyer change in unless we're honest about the way things are. 55 00:04:13.819 --> 00:04:16.060 So for me I look at I look at what we call bs as simply 56 00:04:16.180 --> 00:04:21.060 hard truths, exceptional truths, about the industry, about ourselves. And, 57 00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:28.129 like I said, having the amazing freedom of being independent gives me personally this 58 00:04:28.250 --> 00:04:31.449 kind of freedom to to call out the entire industry. And I'll give you 59 00:04:31.449 --> 00:04:35.089 an example of where the nickname came from. It's it's not a self attributed 60 00:04:35.129 --> 00:04:39.720 nickname. My good old colleague, he's not old. It was a long 61 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:43.959 time ago and Joe from Aberdeen Group Actually, when I was working there during 62 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:48.240 a time of pivot. He called me an unapologetic marketing toothteller in response to 63 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:51.910 an article that I had. You know, honestly, Carlos just banged out 64 00:04:51.949 --> 00:04:56.389 one night, two o'clock in the morning, I was I was watching TV 65 00:04:56.670 --> 00:05:00.829 and I noticed that a few ad campaigns that I was seeing were, you 66 00:05:00.949 --> 00:05:03.790 know, all all using the the tropes of feminism, you know, breaking 67 00:05:03.829 --> 00:05:09.019 the glass ceiling and an add with two women in a bathroom talking about equal 68 00:05:09.060 --> 00:05:12.899 pay and you know, things that, on the surface, seemed really encouraging 69 00:05:13.100 --> 00:05:16.579 and positive. And me being me and watching, you know, TV late 70 00:05:16.620 --> 00:05:19.939 at night, I started to Google some of these brands and I started to 71 00:05:20.060 --> 00:05:27.209 notice behind the scenes, really poor behavior by these companies. I'm talking lawsuits, 72 00:05:27.529 --> 00:05:31.050 I'm talking other brands being marketed at the same time, that we're completely 73 00:05:31.089 --> 00:05:36.319 misogynistic, you know, absolutely hypocritical activity, the same brands that were starting 74 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:41.120 to profit from these very expensive, although I don't know how expensive two am 75 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:46.279 ad bys are, and I just wrote an article called the illusion of progress 76 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:50.589 that we were making as an industry marketing to women. Now we're using feminism 77 00:05:50.629 --> 00:05:55.230 and our ads, but how we're behaving as a company is hasn't caught up. 78 00:05:55.310 --> 00:05:58.389 So the article went a little bit gang busters. It was right around 79 00:05:58.829 --> 00:06:02.629 International Women's Day every single year that more and more example started to come out, 80 00:06:03.029 --> 00:06:06.379 and I have just been on this, on this beat, calling out 81 00:06:06.540 --> 00:06:13.379 brands for what is essentially hypocritical femvertizing, and it not only applies to women 82 00:06:13.420 --> 00:06:18.449 and now applies to pandering to lgbtq consumers. Insert value, insert, you 83 00:06:18.529 --> 00:06:23.490 know, minority here and there's a brand exploiting it for their own gains. 84 00:06:23.610 --> 00:06:27.449 So this is something that just became a passion project for me and it's gotten 85 00:06:27.649 --> 00:06:31.569 incredible feedback because I believe, and what I'm seeing other people, consumers, 86 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:38.480 employees and marketers are all looking for again, this permission to tell the truth 87 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:41.839 or, as you call it, call out BS. Well, I love 88 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.279 that example. If you've not read those articles by Katie, I highly suggested, 89 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:50.670 because I have read them and they are incredibly insightful, incredibly thought out. 90 00:06:50.670 --> 00:06:54.430 I think one of the things I appreciate the most about you, Katie, 91 00:06:54.509 --> 00:06:58.110 is you stay in the facts and I think in our society it's so 92 00:06:58.269 --> 00:07:01.779 easy to attack a person or person's versus behavior, and I love that you 93 00:07:01.899 --> 00:07:06.779 just call out the behavior. So the intention is there. I mean person 94 00:07:06.860 --> 00:07:10.939 had only want to do good by their buyers, by their brands. This 95 00:07:11.060 --> 00:07:13.939 is why I read about it, because there is and there are some really 96 00:07:13.980 --> 00:07:17.529 wonderful examples of organizations and campaigns that do a great job living up to the 97 00:07:17.569 --> 00:07:21.490 values. They're not just lip service, they're not just cheap talk and those, 98 00:07:21.529 --> 00:07:26.370 I believe, are great examples that allow brands to connect with buyers on 99 00:07:26.410 --> 00:07:30.560 a value base level, which everybody wants to build trust, to differentiate, 100 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.040 to connect, to increase the effectiveness of the campaigns, the virality of them. 101 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:40.360 People love to share these, so I believe inherently it's a positive intention. 102 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:45.110 The issue is we get tripped up falling for industry tricks. We get 103 00:07:45.149 --> 00:07:48.230 tripped up thinking that because everyone else does it, our appropriate for it. 104 00:07:48.829 --> 00:07:55.230 Yeah, so when I hear you talk about the the brands that are manipulating 105 00:07:55.269 --> 00:08:01.740 or the brands that are using semonism or Lgbtq for their own benefit, the 106 00:08:01.980 --> 00:08:07.060 word that keeps circling around of my mind is authenticity. HMM, and I 107 00:08:07.180 --> 00:08:11.980 have written a lot about being authentic and being there I say, vulnerable. 108 00:08:11.699 --> 00:08:16.410 So if you're a marketer and you're saying I want my brand to be authentic. 109 00:08:16.529 --> 00:08:20.569 I don't want to exploit something simply to sell more product or service. 110 00:08:22.769 --> 00:08:26.319 Where does someone start, whether there are a manager of Vice Presidency M Olt 111 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:31.000 or somebody who's just down in the trenches right and copy? How does that 112 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:35.840 authenticity start? If I already know the hard truth is we're not living up 113 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:39.639 to what we're putting out into the market place. Well, that's the key, 114 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:43.070 I feel like, the layers of authenticity that have to be aligned in 115 00:08:43.149 --> 00:08:48.190 order for a brand to be seen as one that is honest and trustworthy, 116 00:08:48.429 --> 00:08:52.029 which I think every brand knows is the most important thing to achieve today. 117 00:08:52.509 --> 00:08:56.980 And I also think most brands are working from a place of disconnect, the 118 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:01.740 working from a place of actually being they walking into a situation being untrusted from 119 00:09:01.740 --> 00:09:05.500 the get Goo, meaning that marketing and anyone responsible for the perception of the 120 00:09:05.580 --> 00:09:09.250 brand almost has to work over time right to earn that kind of trust, 121 00:09:09.690 --> 00:09:15.370 just to get back to square one with buyers who are just inherently skeptical today. 122 00:09:15.929 --> 00:09:18.769 So if I'm a copyright, if I'm a marketer sitting there wondering which 123 00:09:20.129 --> 00:09:24.960 messages or which narratives right are appropriate to kind of, you know, tap 124 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:30.600 into. What are the what are the Zeitgeists that are right for a brand 125 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:33.879 like ours to really own the three layers I would look at start with what 126 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:39.789 matters to buyers, obviously, but I think overlooked what matters to and what 127 00:09:39.990 --> 00:09:43.830 we can live up to with our own corporate culture, with our own standards. 128 00:09:43.149 --> 00:09:46.669 What I mean by that is how we hire, how we treat employees, 129 00:09:46.710 --> 00:09:52.149 for example, and use FEM vertising, which is using feminism in advertising. 130 00:09:52.669 --> 00:09:56.539 We you better have women on your executive team and you better have equal 131 00:09:56.580 --> 00:10:01.940 pay transparency and you better employ women throughout the organization. You better create things 132 00:10:01.019 --> 00:10:07.250 like strong family leave programs. Don't claim to be feminist unless you are acting 133 00:10:07.929 --> 00:10:11.009 with the ideals of a quality and month. It also extends to who you 134 00:10:11.090 --> 00:10:16.090 choose to do business with. Don't claim to be a fam in this minded 135 00:10:16.169 --> 00:10:22.519 organization if you don't mandate things like supplier diversity. There are simple stuffs you 136 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:24.559 can take as a business actually aligned with the values that you want to use 137 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.759 publicly. It's kind of a litmus test that you can run to see whether 138 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:31.440 or not this is a campaign or, again, a narrative you should tap 139 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:35.870 into. And then I would look at not only what's important to buyers? 140 00:10:35.350 --> 00:10:39.789 What are the practices of the organization? What are the values of the employees? 141 00:10:39.429 --> 00:10:43.750 So we saw this is where the lions are really starting to blur. 142 00:10:43.029 --> 00:10:48.870 We saw in Boston here the wayfarer walk out. Are you familiar, and 143 00:10:48.909 --> 00:10:52.059 I'm sure if anyone's listening who's not familiar, five hundred or so, and 144 00:10:52.139 --> 00:10:56.940 don't quote me on that, but hundreds of employees of the online furniture each 145 00:10:56.980 --> 00:11:01.779 other wayfarer, which is headquartered here in Boston, beautiful facilities right downtown. 146 00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:05.289 They walked out. They staged a protest where they very, very visibly walked 147 00:11:05.289 --> 00:11:11.929 out of the organization because they were protesting the company's sale of beds down to 148 00:11:13.409 --> 00:11:18.240 border center detention facilities. And what really staged and created the walkout was not 149 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:22.399 the simple sale and they were trying to make a point. There was an 150 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:26.720 internal moment where the company was looking to its leadership to define the values of 151 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:31.039 the organization and who that organization would do business with, and they were so 152 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:35.629 disappointed, the employees were so disappointed by the executive team's response, or lack 153 00:11:35.830 --> 00:11:41.470 thereof, of clear delineations and clear values, that that's what created the walkout, 154 00:11:41.509 --> 00:11:46.549 which got nationwide, probably global press, and so this value alignment thing 155 00:11:46.259 --> 00:11:52.299 is important because it affects organizations at every single level of their stakeholders, customers, 156 00:11:52.620 --> 00:11:58.019 employees and everyone that they do business with from a partner perspective. Yeah, 157 00:11:58.059 --> 00:12:01.419 I think that. I mean that. That to me makes so much 158 00:12:01.649 --> 00:12:05.129 sense. Right, as can we do we live up to it because, 159 00:12:05.129 --> 00:12:09.049 as the old add it says, the action speak louder than words. You 160 00:12:09.289 --> 00:12:13.129 touched on something as well, which I think is really important, and then 161 00:12:13.169 --> 00:12:16.320 you said, and it's often overlooked, which I agree with, is this 162 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:22.200 what matters to our buyers, what matters to our consumers? And why? 163 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.039 First of all, why do you think that is so overlooked in today's marketing? 164 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:33.389 I think that most companies are inherently inside out organizations, and what I 165 00:12:33.429 --> 00:12:37.590 mean by that is every organization that you've ever worked for. Think about when 166 00:12:37.590 --> 00:12:41.470 you've started at that company. Think about the types of training that you receive. 167 00:12:41.590 --> 00:12:45.700 What's the first thing that they teach you? They teach you about internal 168 00:12:45.740 --> 00:12:50.620 culture, they teach you about internal policies, they teach you about the products 169 00:12:50.659 --> 00:12:52.259 you're going to go market and bring to market. They show you the sales 170 00:12:52.299 --> 00:13:00.129 process. It rarely and in most organizations, very late in that process do 171 00:13:00.210 --> 00:13:03.250 you get a chance to go and understand the buyer and go and live a 172 00:13:03.409 --> 00:13:05.210 life, you know, a live a day in their life. I feel 173 00:13:05.210 --> 00:13:09.889 like this we throw around the word empathy like it's going out of style. 174 00:13:09.129 --> 00:13:15.440 It's becoming so important because it's become the thing that separate great brands from mediocre 175 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:22.240 brands. It's this actual internal motion to allow everybody in the company, especially 176 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:26.759 in marketing, to understand buyers. And again we throw that out like it's 177 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:28.389 the easiest thing in the world. Hey, why don't you go create some 178 00:13:28.509 --> 00:13:33.590 personas, slap them up right, put it up on the internal share point. 179 00:13:33.750 --> 00:13:37.470 Boom, you're a customer centric Organiz it no way. This is actually 180 00:13:37.750 --> 00:13:41.779 and that is a muscle that needs to be worked, needs to be practiced. 181 00:13:41.340 --> 00:13:46.059 There's one organization that does it really well. It's a toast another boss, 182 00:13:46.100 --> 00:13:48.539 I'm just gonna I'M gonna call out Boston based brands. You Go, 183 00:13:48.659 --> 00:13:52.500 guys, and the commercial for the Boston based company's I love it. We 184 00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:58.570 want your investment. Come start a company here. Toast is a point of 185 00:13:58.649 --> 00:14:01.850 sale technology company. They actually sell to restaurants. And then one of the 186 00:14:01.929 --> 00:14:05.289 fastest growing companies here in Boston. I was actually just on a panel with 187 00:14:05.649 --> 00:14:09.080 one of their senior product marketing leaders, Kelly Easton, and Kelly share that 188 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:16.120 they have this amazing internal process called, I think they call it empathy immersion, 189 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:18.840 which is a cool name for what is essentially just allowing everybody in the 190 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.879 company to spend a day in the life of restaurant owner so that the people 191 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:28.470 that are building technology, servicing that tech, marketing and selling that tech can 192 00:14:28.549 --> 00:14:31.950 all understand what is actually going on in the in the person's life that they 193 00:14:31.990 --> 00:14:35.230 have to sell to. These are not very tech savvy people. These are 194 00:14:35.269 --> 00:14:39.820 very busy individuals. It's difficult to get to them. This is part of 195 00:14:39.019 --> 00:14:43.700 why the company is doing so well. They've faked a process that is inherently 196 00:14:43.179 --> 00:14:48.139 not scalable. It is expensive, it is a it is a distraction from 197 00:14:48.139 --> 00:14:50.700 the core competency, but it's so, so critical to everybody doing their job 198 00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:56.809 correctly. That's why they're able to succeed, that they're baked into knowing inherently 199 00:14:56.889 --> 00:15:01.049 what matters to the buyer. Yeah, and I think that is to me. 200 00:15:01.250 --> 00:15:03.730 That gets back to that human element and one of the things I've seen 201 00:15:03.809 --> 00:15:07.399 and you, you and I have spoken about a little bit. It's be 202 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:13.879 to be marketing just become so sterile and so generic, and yes, we 203 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.679 should be talking about it. I believe, and I'm curious to your thought 204 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.240 on this, I believe when we're marketing our products or services, we should 205 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:24.710 be talking about what's important to them in terms of their jobs. But is 206 00:15:24.789 --> 00:15:28.190 there also a place to say, Hey, we're going out to people who 207 00:15:28.990 --> 00:15:35.350 might have had really crappy commutesant to work today, are trying to live with 208 00:15:35.549 --> 00:15:41.419 work life balance, are fearfull on downsizing? Do those literally, those really 209 00:15:41.659 --> 00:15:46.940 personal feelings? Do those also have a role in BB marketing and addressing those? 210 00:15:48.500 --> 00:15:52.330 No, none at all. Just getting like this is I have a 211 00:15:52.370 --> 00:15:56.370 resource that I'd like to recommend to anyone listening. It's from Harvard Business Review 212 00:15:56.450 --> 00:16:02.529 and banning company and it's called the be to be elements of value and it's 213 00:16:02.690 --> 00:16:04.200 you can google just be to be elements of value. You can find the 214 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:08.039 article. It's UNGATED's free, but it is the best, I think, 215 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:15.799 scientific and just exercise that I've ever seen in clarifying why a be tob buyer, 216 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.590 which don't forget the human makes a purchase decision. What they actually value 217 00:16:21.710 --> 00:16:26.110 and the way that the research is organized is in terms of it's kind of 218 00:16:26.190 --> 00:16:29.549 in the same as like maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, baseline needs 219 00:16:29.629 --> 00:16:32.629 like shelter, food, water at the bottom. In be to be those 220 00:16:32.710 --> 00:16:36.740 elements of value are functional value, things like will this reduce my costs, 221 00:16:36.860 --> 00:16:41.740 or is this inacceptable price? Does its scale, which are typically things that 222 00:16:41.860 --> 00:16:45.179 I would say most bebb companies include in their marketing messaging. And yes, 223 00:16:45.580 --> 00:16:49.769 the many stop at that. Is that is the level at which they end 224 00:16:51.210 --> 00:16:55.009 their journey up this this pyramid of value. What the research found, and 225 00:16:55.090 --> 00:16:56.809 what you and I know to be true just from working with beb brands our 226 00:16:56.809 --> 00:17:02.559 whole careers, is that the magic happens when you're able to to move beyond 227 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:07.519 these very functional levels and levers of value. Things like you know, and 228 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:12.000 increasingly the research found, they're more individual based and they're more inspirational in nature. 229 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:18.069 For example, to your point, bed buyers are buying based on very 230 00:17:18.230 --> 00:17:22.789 personal value drivers. Will this give me a chance to grow in my career, 231 00:17:22.950 --> 00:17:27.390 for example, will it improve my marketability as an individual? We see 232 00:17:27.430 --> 00:17:32.619 this all the time, for example with marketing operations, software and services, 233 00:17:32.859 --> 00:17:36.940 the marketing operations roll. Those individuals are some of the most amazing, most 234 00:17:37.059 --> 00:17:41.259 pioneering types of people, because the industry is being created as they're working, 235 00:17:41.619 --> 00:17:45.890 and so vendors that do well in the space elevate those buyers. Marquetto, 236 00:17:45.930 --> 00:17:51.289 for example, right WHO's disclaimer partner find you know, they'll elevate the individuals 237 00:17:51.329 --> 00:17:55.369 in this community in their marketing nation, give them opportunities to connect, give 238 00:17:55.410 --> 00:18:00.000 them education, give them awards, to showcase what good looks like and to 239 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:03.640 showcase, peer to peer, what works. That's a marketability play, that's 240 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:10.599 reputational assurance, that's network expansion, those career focused value statements that are so 241 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:15.670 critical to buyers. That's why people are still loyal to a marketing operations technology. 242 00:18:15.789 --> 00:18:18.309 It's a tech, it's a piece of software, and yet people are 243 00:18:18.990 --> 00:18:23.430 defining their careers based on it. So that's that's one example. I think 244 00:18:25.150 --> 00:18:27.859 more broadly, the very top of this pyramid, you'll see are things like 245 00:18:29.220 --> 00:18:34.099 hope, vision and social responsibility. These are what they call inspirational value elements. 246 00:18:34.339 --> 00:18:40.539 These are the things that I really think separate incredible brands from average vendors. 247 00:18:40.819 --> 00:18:44.609 If you can give a buyer hope that, despite the very changing nature 248 00:18:44.609 --> 00:18:48.569 of their industry. I think about it. Biers, for example, security 249 00:18:48.609 --> 00:18:53.450 type professionals. Those people are inundated with high risk, high pressure, tons 250 00:18:53.450 --> 00:18:57.079 of stress. If you're a vendor and you can give them hope, you 251 00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:00.440 can give them a clear vision for the future, that's going to again allow 252 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:04.359 them to win. You've got it. Yeah, your product might be the 253 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:07.599 right price, it might meet all the specifications, but if you're going to 254 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.430 differentiate or in trust and when you've got to go up this pyramid, so 255 00:19:11.589 --> 00:19:15.630 for be tob elements of value. Check it out, you're going to print 256 00:19:15.670 --> 00:19:18.630 it out, you're going to hang in a new cupabile. You're welcome Banding 257 00:19:18.670 --> 00:19:22.829 Company, Free Promotion. You know, it's interesting and that's not too unlike 258 00:19:23.029 --> 00:19:32.539 what I heard from CEB that showed some of the impediments to purchase for buyers 259 00:19:32.539 --> 00:19:36.779 is a fear that if they make the wrong decision they're going to lose their 260 00:19:36.819 --> 00:19:41.769 job. And so I think we forget that again, that that human emotion 261 00:19:41.890 --> 00:19:45.289 that really does go into much just buying, just in every day when you 262 00:19:45.369 --> 00:19:48.930 walk into your office or, you know, sit down at your sit down 263 00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:53.960 at your chair of there's so much human, raw human emotion that goes into 264 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:59.200 who were marketing to and who are trying to get the attention of, and 265 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:03.119 so I do want to shift that the discussion to attention, because I and 266 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.829 everybody talks about the attention economy. I call it the distracted economy, where 267 00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:12.990 we just live in a constant state of distraction. So if I've bought, 268 00:20:14.029 --> 00:20:15.990 if I've dried, if I'm drinking the cool light. Now, as a 269 00:20:15.990 --> 00:20:18.990 listener, I'm going yes, we're gonna do the hard work, spend the 270 00:20:19.069 --> 00:20:23.460 money, put the investment of time and money and resources into knowing our customers. 271 00:20:23.940 --> 00:20:27.460 How in Hell do you get someone's attention, because we're so distracted all 272 00:20:27.500 --> 00:20:32.180 the time and we've got a million messages thrown at us on a day to 273 00:20:32.180 --> 00:20:36.329 day basis. Yeah, I mean it's half the battle. I always say 274 00:20:36.369 --> 00:20:40.690 that at tension is only one half of the fight because once you have that 275 00:20:40.809 --> 00:20:44.490 attention, it's not just about keeping it, but it's about getting their attention 276 00:20:44.529 --> 00:20:48.809 and then allowing the buyer to actually trust what it is you're saying. I 277 00:20:48.930 --> 00:20:51.000 mean, I think, to answer your question, I mean I wish I 278 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:52.279 was an easy answer to how do you get attention. It's going to be 279 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:56.640 different for every every buyer on the call a different channels, you know. 280 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:00.359 But the point is, I think that we have to remember that we don't 281 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.039 mark it in a bubble. We talk a lot about the word noise. 282 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:07.269 We talked a lot about breaking through the clutter, but the clutter is not 283 00:21:07.509 --> 00:21:12.190 just the other vendors in your space that are also marketing and selling the same 284 00:21:12.230 --> 00:21:17.109 things. The clutter is actually a lot broader than that. We live in 285 00:21:17.710 --> 00:21:21.339 what, I think it was pure research center called a culture of volume of 286 00:21:21.460 --> 00:21:25.779 information and spin. I mean, don't forget your buyers. If you think 287 00:21:25.779 --> 00:21:29.299 about their their waking hours every day. Say It's like fifteen hours of a 288 00:21:29.380 --> 00:21:32.420 weak time, right, it whatever it is. They're dealing with a barrage 289 00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:37.690 of seven news I'm right, the news cycle, and I don't know about 290 00:21:37.730 --> 00:21:41.769 you, but this week I'm like addicted. I refresh the New York Times. 291 00:21:41.809 --> 00:21:45.490 I'm addicted to knowing what is going on, what happened next. I 292 00:21:45.609 --> 00:21:48.720 mean, I don't think you I've had deadlines, but I'm not. The 293 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.200 fact that we are addicted right now to checking the news. Wired magazine calls 294 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:56.000 it the new Fauma, right, the new fear of missing out is actually 295 00:21:56.319 --> 00:22:00.789 our inability to stop checking the news. To It's a new headline every day. 296 00:22:00.950 --> 00:22:04.269 But this is not just us, this is every every buyer on every 297 00:22:04.349 --> 00:22:10.349 side of the spectrum right dealing with the seven news cycles. So now take 298 00:22:10.509 --> 00:22:12.630 that time and that attention off, you know, off the plate. You've 299 00:22:12.630 --> 00:22:18.779 got even leaven limited chunk of attention to go vie for. Go back to 300 00:22:18.859 --> 00:22:23.740 the fact that we had an incredible, like catastrophic, level of fake news 301 00:22:25.099 --> 00:22:29.819 and disinformation right that we're levied in this country, all over the world by 302 00:22:29.940 --> 00:22:34.369 bad actors trying to Swaye elections and politicize. It creates a vision. This 303 00:22:34.569 --> 00:22:37.490 is just fact. Doesn't matter, again, where you come from, where 304 00:22:37.529 --> 00:22:41.569 you approach the issue of politics. We're dealing with the fact that most people 305 00:22:41.890 --> 00:22:48.559 can't actually trust the information they are interacting with online. So forget getting their 306 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:51.759 attention. How did you make sure that what you're saying can be trusted? 307 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:55.119 I think that's the real way to look at, you know, things like 308 00:22:55.200 --> 00:23:00.150 the attention economy. It's it's doubling down on making sure that the message you're 309 00:23:00.150 --> 00:23:04.230 coming across with is and can be trusted. For example, you have to 310 00:23:04.349 --> 00:23:08.950 showcase that what you're saying is relevant, and we use that words. The 311 00:23:10.069 --> 00:23:12.380 more relevant than what you are, the more you can show that you've understood. 312 00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:15.460 I'm taken the time to understand these buyers, the more they're going to 313 00:23:15.500 --> 00:23:18.339 go okay, you've taken the time to get to know me. That's one 314 00:23:19.700 --> 00:23:22.779 measure towards me actually trusting you. Right then, we've got to be a 315 00:23:22.819 --> 00:23:26.980 little bit transparent. We've got a showcase of buyers that we are willing to 316 00:23:26.890 --> 00:23:30.730 give it all away, that we're not hiding anything, that we're willing to 317 00:23:30.849 --> 00:23:34.170 showcase everything we know in order to help them make a good decision. In 318 00:23:34.210 --> 00:23:37.730 other words, that whole you know, Buzzword of thought leadership. That's what 319 00:23:37.890 --> 00:23:42.480 it means. It means giving everything you know out to the market so that 320 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:45.079 when people are trying to make a decision, they can they can look to 321 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:49.440 you as somebody who's willing to give it away because you're so confident in the 322 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:53.720 quality of the insights that you bring to the table. Right important today, 323 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:56.750 never more so than ever. And finally, we have to be willing to 324 00:23:56.869 --> 00:24:02.390 connect with people on a level that indicates that we understand them at a value 325 00:24:02.589 --> 00:24:04.230 level. Look at this. How we've brought this full circle, Carlos, 326 00:24:04.269 --> 00:24:10.539 right back to our bemvertising and pride pandering. But this is why so many 327 00:24:10.579 --> 00:24:15.779 companies are dipping their toe into the waters of, you know, showcasing feminism 328 00:24:15.859 --> 00:24:19.420 in their ads or Lgbtq, diversity and inclusion. They're trying to connect with 329 00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:22.859 buyers on a level that goes well beyond with the product. Does not, 330 00:24:22.980 --> 00:24:26.410 of course, creates issues, but I think it's because of this need to 331 00:24:26.849 --> 00:24:33.690 forego just winning attention and also try to earn trust. It's it's an exciting, 332 00:24:33.250 --> 00:24:37.130 incredible new time to be a marketer. It's also a little bit overwhelming, 333 00:24:37.289 --> 00:24:42.599 because what we end up doing is overwhelming buyers with how important we think 334 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:48.039 what we're saying to them is in the context of the culture of Spin and 335 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.000 volume of information that they're actually dealing with. Well, I think the it's 336 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.750 interesting you talk about trust, because I think trust this paramount and I also 337 00:24:56.789 --> 00:25:02.589 believe we don't have a lot of cycles to try to win trust with customers 338 00:25:02.710 --> 00:25:06.430 worth buyers, because of we're just going to throw volume in volume and all 339 00:25:06.470 --> 00:25:11.339 it is is irrelevant, irrelevant nonsense. You've lost my trust, HMM, 340 00:25:11.660 --> 00:25:15.019 and I don't want to say lost your trust, but you've just deemed yourself 341 00:25:15.140 --> 00:25:18.380 not even worthy for me to explore if I could put my trust in your 342 00:25:18.539 --> 00:25:21.890 so what are your thoughts on that? That's really that I agree a hundred 343 00:25:21.890 --> 00:25:23.970 percent. I think that's what requires, I think, marketers today to be 344 00:25:25.089 --> 00:25:29.049 a little bit braver even than ten years ago. We've got to be willing 345 00:25:29.089 --> 00:25:33.930 to kind of stand up to our organizations in a sense that we have to 346 00:25:33.009 --> 00:25:37.079 be going to audit, and I don't just mean that checklist of like what's 347 00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:41.319 out of date and what's not on the right tone. I mean really audit 348 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.519 every single touch point we're providing right and audit the fact that can this. 349 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:51.670 Does this communicate trust? Does this actually showcase that we can be trusted? 350 00:25:51.710 --> 00:25:56.549 Or is this hyperbolic? Is it again full of irrelevant information? I mean 351 00:25:56.589 --> 00:26:00.670 it's just it's a new Lens on the continual auditing that a marketer has to 352 00:26:00.750 --> 00:26:04.180 do. But what it's up against our entrenched ideas within a business that the 353 00:26:04.220 --> 00:26:08.099 way we've been doing it is good enough and it ignores again that larger, 354 00:26:08.299 --> 00:26:12.059 broader context that a buyer is coming to the table with in favor of how 355 00:26:12.180 --> 00:26:15.539 things were ten years ago, when there's a lot less out there, a 356 00:26:15.059 --> 00:26:18.970 lot, a lot more trust in vendors and there are today overwhelmingly in business. 357 00:26:19.490 --> 00:26:22.490 So I think it's like it's a new Lens to look at the problem 358 00:26:22.650 --> 00:26:26.009 of not only what's in your website, but where does a buyer find us? 359 00:26:26.049 --> 00:26:29.890 How are they interacting with us in the wild, in the world, 360 00:26:30.289 --> 00:26:33.160 and what are we doing at every single touch point to demonstrate again that we 361 00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:37.599 can be transparent, we can be honest, we can almost be vulnerable as 362 00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:41.359 a business and that we can showcase our humidity. So with all of that, 363 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:45.799 there is a lot there right. So if we're going to go with 364 00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:49.589 a message, we sure a sect better make sure we can back it up 365 00:26:49.630 --> 00:26:53.430 as company, not just from a product perspective. That are we actually practicing 366 00:26:53.509 --> 00:26:57.630 what we preach. We have to understand our buyers. We have to dial 367 00:26:57.829 --> 00:27:03.380 back, dial in our content to make sure we're just not the drunk uncle 368 00:27:03.460 --> 00:27:07.019 at the cocktail party who's fling nonsense. I mean, the list goes on. 369 00:27:07.579 --> 00:27:11.420 So if for those who are listening and they're sitting there going I buy 370 00:27:11.500 --> 00:27:15.250 in all this, but you don't understand my situation. There's only so much 371 00:27:15.289 --> 00:27:18.690 time in the day and so many bodies to fill that time. Where the 372 00:27:18.809 --> 00:27:25.009 heck does someone start? If you work at an organization that does not trust 373 00:27:25.609 --> 00:27:29.329 you as a marketer to do the right thing by your buyers, go quit 374 00:27:29.450 --> 00:27:32.079 and find a company that does. You are going to be wasting and I 375 00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:34.480 know that's a that's a really child's lave. I say that all the time, 376 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:37.640 but I love that you just said that. You're not going anywhere. 377 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.359 Right, right, yes, I love that you just said that. I'm 378 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.710 all right, interruptive. It going. I was like pumping my fist over 379 00:27:45.829 --> 00:27:48.990 here. That's a good sign. I'm sure I'm making other people listening on 380 00:27:49.109 --> 00:27:52.509 this podcast going what the F I can't put my job. The fact is 381 00:27:52.549 --> 00:27:57.069 you can and you should. Marketing talent right now is so hard to find 382 00:27:57.109 --> 00:28:00.940 and if you are actually good at what you do, you need to be 383 00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:04.099 willing to see yourself as an asset, but that asset cannot be leveraged unless 384 00:28:04.660 --> 00:28:08.859 you're in the kind of culture that trusts marketing. We all know that there 385 00:28:08.900 --> 00:28:14.329 are many businesses out there that look at marketing like a function of the business 386 00:28:14.450 --> 00:28:18.329 that can be deprioritized. Right the I think people called the arts and Crafts 387 00:28:18.369 --> 00:28:22.569 Department of Yester Year. The fact is you can. You can do the 388 00:28:22.650 --> 00:28:26.849 work to drive change of the perception of marketing and many organizations that is an 389 00:28:26.930 --> 00:28:30.839 ongoing process and marketers are starting to earn that kind of trust. They're showing 390 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:36.240 impact. But in some cases you're never going to change the minds of the 391 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:40.279 people that are going to give you the freedom to actually do what's right for 392 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:44.470 the business. And so you and not saying this is a blanket advice that's 393 00:28:44.630 --> 00:28:47.509 good for everybody. Some people just need to keep their jobs, and that's 394 00:28:47.549 --> 00:28:49.269 fine. What I'm saying is, if you're somebody who's fed up with the 395 00:28:49.309 --> 00:28:53.630 fact that you're getting nowhere trying to, for example, shift the language of 396 00:28:53.750 --> 00:28:57.700 your website to focus more on the buyer and less on your products, if 397 00:28:57.740 --> 00:29:02.940 you fought that good fight for months and you're getting nowhere, go apply your 398 00:29:03.019 --> 00:29:07.299 talents to an organization that desperately needs that customer centric, buyercentric energy, because 399 00:29:07.299 --> 00:29:11.250 they're out there founders and CEOS and boards that get it, or the ones 400 00:29:11.289 --> 00:29:15.009 that are looking for marketers to come in with a playbook that's suitable for two 401 00:29:15.009 --> 00:29:18.170 thousand and twenty. If you want to go work for an organization that wants 402 00:29:18.170 --> 00:29:19.049 you to be in one thousand, nine hundred and ninety five marketer, by 403 00:29:19.089 --> 00:29:22.930 all means go for it, but you know, see you in eighteen months 404 00:29:22.049 --> 00:29:27.680 when you've gotten nowhere. M I love that. That that is such strong 405 00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:32.559 advice. And earlier on my career, as with a software company, I 406 00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:36.000 did I took the step and yeah, it was scary as hell to say 407 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:37.990 I'm going to shift, I'm going to move because I can't stand doing this 408 00:29:38.150 --> 00:29:41.430 anymore. But man, the rewards are so much worth it and I think 409 00:29:41.589 --> 00:29:47.430 that's part of and I know you see this, to our run into marketers 410 00:29:47.470 --> 00:29:52.190 all the time who are just well, the The Marketing Happiness report by prof 411 00:29:52.269 --> 00:29:55.819 show that only ten percent say they're very fulfilled in your work. That's pathetic 412 00:29:56.859 --> 00:30:00.180 because we we do some really cool stuff and you would think really, only 413 00:30:00.740 --> 00:30:03.619 nine out of ten or are are not. I mean, I don't go 414 00:30:03.660 --> 00:30:04.859 to why don't wake up every morning going boy, I just want to be 415 00:30:04.900 --> 00:30:10.970 adequate. I think it comes down to, and I realize that that's pretty 416 00:30:10.970 --> 00:30:12.730 hyperbolic to say just quit your job and go work for company. If you 417 00:30:12.809 --> 00:30:17.410 are doing the work to change the perception of marketing, internally. You really 418 00:30:17.450 --> 00:30:19.410 do have to start speaking the language of the business. I don't just mean 419 00:30:19.529 --> 00:30:23.440 revenue, I actually mean this is this is just kind of managing out one 420 00:30:23.480 --> 00:30:26.440 hundred and one. But really, you know, laddering up whatever you're doing 421 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:30.960 in marketing, even if it's this campaign, to, you know, increase 422 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:34.279 trust at a business. You've got a ladder it up to higher level business 423 00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:37.710 goals and be able to change the way that you talk about marketing to be 424 00:30:37.910 --> 00:30:41.829 something that a CFO, a CEO, the head of sales are all going 425 00:30:41.910 --> 00:30:45.269 to nod their heads at and go, oh right, you are a creating 426 00:30:45.269 --> 00:30:52.019 value, you are creating brand value in a way that allows us to achieve 427 00:30:52.099 --> 00:30:55.259 what we're, you know, trying to do. We're all kind of working 428 00:30:55.299 --> 00:30:57.900 on the same team. I think we're marketers. Fall and trip is when 429 00:30:57.940 --> 00:31:02.700 they, when I'll say we, because I am one, when we are 430 00:31:02.740 --> 00:31:04.569 a little too proud of what we do and we forget why we're doing it. 431 00:31:06.049 --> 00:31:08.210 You know, we forget that we are part of a team that is 432 00:31:08.210 --> 00:31:11.410 all trying to create the same kind of change in market. So we tend 433 00:31:11.450 --> 00:31:17.049 to maybe sometimes be a little proud and say, well, it's marketing, 434 00:31:17.369 --> 00:31:22.240 you don't understand it. The truth is, everybody has an opinion about marketing. 435 00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:26.759 You know what they say about opinions? Yeah, that's all. Wait, 436 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:32.910 but everyone thinks that they understand marketing because they consume it all day. 437 00:31:32.950 --> 00:31:36.190 Everyone's these ads and billboards and commercials. They think they know what marketing is. 438 00:31:36.750 --> 00:31:38.990 So there is this like weird ownus on marketing. Like nowhere else in 439 00:31:40.029 --> 00:31:45.309 the business, to have to be this continual internal educator on what actually you 440 00:31:45.390 --> 00:31:49.700 know marketing. For that especially be to be specific. Organization needs to look 441 00:31:49.700 --> 00:31:52.380 like, and the only way to do that is to connect with your colleagues 442 00:31:52.420 --> 00:31:55.900 in a way that you're connecting with your buyers. What matters to them the 443 00:31:56.059 --> 00:31:59.579 link which they use ment at dot. Marketers have two jobs. We have 444 00:31:59.660 --> 00:32:01.730 to sell our value to the market and our organization. I don't you know, 445 00:32:01.849 --> 00:32:06.089 I love marketers for this reason. Where them? What's resilient and people 446 00:32:06.289 --> 00:32:09.890 I've ever ever beat? Yeah, I we're one of the few professions that 447 00:32:10.009 --> 00:32:15.079 constantly has to just fire internal existence. But okay, are giving well and 448 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:20.400 there and they're creating and incredible momentous change that is actually changing the role that 449 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:22.759 a business plays and life of a buyer. So I mean, as hard 450 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:25.839 as it is, I say keep pushing, keep going, because I'm excited 451 00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:30.829 about where marketing is headed. I'm excited about the profession of marketing compared to 452 00:32:30.869 --> 00:32:35.029 a hundred years ago, what it was manipulation, persuasion, right to what 453 00:32:35.150 --> 00:32:37.950 it can be and what it should be, which are these like internal advocates 454 00:32:37.990 --> 00:32:43.589 for the buyer and and connectors between what the market values and what we do 455 00:32:43.789 --> 00:32:47.140 is organizations. It's still in a remarkable profession when we're willing to be createds 456 00:32:47.180 --> 00:32:52.339 and do it the right way a hundred percent. In gree I have often 457 00:32:52.380 --> 00:32:55.700 said there's no better time to be in marketing because if we do it the 458 00:32:55.740 --> 00:33:00.210 right way, we can and I'm with you. I think it's driving effectual 459 00:33:00.369 --> 00:33:05.609 change and it's so vitally important. Katie, I know you and I could 460 00:33:05.609 --> 00:33:08.130 probably stay on the phone for several more hours and talk about this stuff. 461 00:33:08.130 --> 00:33:13.160 As my kids say, it's one of the things that I like to quote 462 00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:16.359 nerd out about. But if people want to continue the conversation with you, 463 00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:20.960 if they want to find you learn more about what you do, what, 464 00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:24.720 where can they go? I send a weekly newsletter that is humbly called the 465 00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:29.670 world's best newsletter and I send it every Saturday morning. So if you want 466 00:33:29.710 --> 00:33:30.470 to get that, which I highly suggest you do, because I have a 467 00:33:30.509 --> 00:33:35.069 big announcement coming up in two weeks, which Carlos doesn't even know, so 468 00:33:35.150 --> 00:33:37.509 he's probably gonna say this is news to me. This is fantastic, Bata 469 00:33:37.630 --> 00:33:42.579 Bro depending on this podcast comes out, maybe out there, but the first 470 00:33:42.579 --> 00:33:45.859 people to know will be that newsletter. So, Katie March how with two 471 00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:52.740 Elscom or just google me like a good marketer. I'm infinitely googleble. That 472 00:33:52.940 --> 00:33:58.529 is very true. Yes, you you are. You're very wellknown. So, 473 00:33:58.690 --> 00:34:00.289 Katie, I really do want to thank you. I know you've got 474 00:34:00.289 --> 00:34:05.250 a crazy busy schedule. This has been a lot of fun for me and, 475 00:34:05.609 --> 00:34:07.690 like every time we get to talk, I walk away with something to 476 00:34:07.809 --> 00:34:13.199 ponder and think about and something to learn from. So I want to thank 477 00:34:13.239 --> 00:34:15.880 all of you who have listened to this episode of the Bob Gross Show. 478 00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:22.800 The HASHTAG H to h, human to human segment. I am Carlos Hidalgo. 479 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:27.150 Go out and sign up for Katie's newsletter and, why you're at it, 480 00:34:27.230 --> 00:34:30.710 if you want to grab a copy of the UN American dream and learn 481 00:34:30.789 --> 00:34:35.269 how to establish work life balance and shed the hustle. Go to amazoncom. 482 00:34:35.550 --> 00:34:37.349 Thank you so much, Katie. You have a wonderful afternoon and to our 483 00:34:37.429 --> 00:34:45.460 listeners, have a great day and go drive some change. We totally get 484 00:34:45.500 --> 00:34:50.139 it. We publish a ton of content on this podcast and it can be 485 00:34:50.300 --> 00:34:53.130 a lot to keep up with. That's why we've started the BTB growth big 486 00:34:53.250 --> 00:34:58.610 three, a no fluff email that boils down our three biggest takeaways from an 487 00:34:58.650 --> 00:35:04.250 entire week of episodes. Sign up today at Sweet Fish Mediacom big three. 488 00:35:04.570 --> 00:35:07.960 That sweet fish Mediacom Big Three